Mini 1251 - Hitchhiker's Mafia - Game Over

[Lunitawolf]

/Confirm

[Lunitawolf]

vote: Umbrage

This is a serious vote.

@Hasdgfas What's the basis?

VOTE: Lupus

For being the only one I've played with before.

[Lunitawolf]

Soo.... while we wait for the remaining 5 who haven't commented Day 1 yet...

@Umbrage What do you think of the wagon on you? And why didn't you give a reason for your vote like everyone else did?

@Fool Why are you hopping on a wagon already? Did it matter to you that it was on Umbrage, or would you have hopped on any person with the most votes?

[Lunitawolf]

vote: Quaroath

He's a tricky trickster when he is scum and fooled me.
In all seriousness Qua I really had a town read on you the game I had to replace out.

I consider that a compliment of the highest order.

Thus

vote Farside

neeneer neener!

@Quaroath Why come in and only random vote without commenting on what's going on at this point? What do you think of the Umbrage train and what do you think about the people following Hasdgfas onto it solely on the basis that he has a "serious" reason?

@Hasdgfas (your name is hard to type!) Why the interest in a town game of Umbrage's?

@Isa How do you feel about being part of a growing train that people hopped on solely because someone said their vote is "serious"? Are you comfortable with where your vote is?

@Fool/Rufflig What are you wanting to happen by being on the Umbrage train?


UNVOTE: Lupus

VOTE: Quaroath
for coming in after we've had some non-RVS momentum and not helping us push that forward

[Lunitawolf]

Don't care.

Page 2

Again, don't care.

Doesn't matter worth shit until later in the day (say 4-5 pages down). Good enough?

No, it's not good enough. Explain to me how not caring or contributing is pro-town.

At least this asks a question. It wasn't random, i voted farside because she voted me. At best it's OMGUS, though it really isn't even that.

Calling it random is stretching the definition of random beyond belief.

At the time it's all the game had that really made me give a rip.

I'm not really buying the umbrage wagon, it feels off, but I can't specify why it bothers me. Unless I ca' there really isn't much point in me commenting on it, is there?

So... the only thing you "give a rip" about so far is a comment about you not related to this game... o.o

If the Umbrage wagon feels off to you, shouldn't you be exploring why and questioning the people on/off of it? How are we supposed to advance if everyone adopts your gameplay and doesn't do anything until someone else does?

[Lunitawolf]

@Umbrage I am not in favor of a policy lynch or in joining your wagon just because someone writes in the first post of the day that it's a "serious" vote. That said, the one thing that bothers me about your input is the same thing that bothers me about Quorath: the lack of scumhunting or probing of any kind. You've only given a defense and info re Forum 62.

I get that it's early in the day, and it's hard to make accurate reads with so little data. But the only way we can get more data is to start talking and asking questions. So... any thing at all that's sticking out so far?

[Lunitawolf]

A) You can use "hascow" or "cow" for my name if you like. It's easier to type

Thanks. Much appreciated.

I have a sneaking suspicion that sorgster is town

@Fool What is giving you a town read on Sorgster? I can understand you saying you have a null read, but not a town one...

Vote Hasdg

He has been trying to get someone lynched right away from rvs with no reason to.

I don't like his reasoning for his vote. Hascow out of the gate moved to get us out of RVS and into the heart of the game which is pro-town.

I also don't like the active lurking, and there are too many of them out there. I don't know if they're lurky scum or lazy town, but either way it's anti-town and we need an end to it so that we can get some reads.

I'll add my second vote to Sorgster.
VOTE: Sorgster

@EVERYONE ON THE SORGSTER WAGON ... you should be adding your second vote to Qua or explaining why you're not.

I think people are on Sorgster's case is not just because he's lurking, but when people call for him to come out of the woodwork, he shows up, is like 'bleh I'll vote someone obvious', then disappears again. It's all very stimulus-response.

Qua is doing the same thing only worse, because all he's done in response to my probing is unvote his random vote, say it's serious business time, but then he disappears without a serious vote or comment of any kind.

[Lunitawolf]

That means I'm pretty much going to die I assume.

Err... not necessarily. Not if you start contributing more. Didn't you read people's reasons for voting you?

[Lunitawolf]

Also, you have two votes... who would your second be on?

[Lunitawolf]

Unvoting for now as Sorgster has started participating, which is what I wanted and there's been enough activity that it makes more sense to read up on that and probe rather than continuing to press lurking Qua. (Hope your wife is doing okay, btw!)

I didn't like Sorgster's short answers, but I went and looked at his posts from other games and he doesn't seem like the most prolific poster, so that alone doesn't set off scum bells with me.

Yesterday was crazy for me, so I haven't had a chance to read yesterday's posts too carefully yet, but that's on my agenda for today.

[Lunitawolf]

Oops. Would be helpful to actually unvote.

UNVOTE: All

[Lunitawolf]

Okay, still need to rgo back and ead some people more carefully, but so far:

My top 2 scummy lynch candidates are:
- Isa
- Lupus

I also could possibly be convinced on Sorgster.

My top 2 pro-towners that I'm not willing to lynch today are:
- Hascow
- Farside

My top vig-if-we-have-it candidate:
- Quaroath

Spoiler is a more detailed explanation of the above.

Spoiler:

Quaroath

I didn’t like his anti-town response to being asked questions: namely his saying he didn’t care when asked questions about what had happened in the game so far and saying the only thing he cared about this game so far was Farside’s comment about him regarding a

different

game. I feel bad pressing him too hard because it sounds like he has some serious RL issues going on, but his RL issues don’t make him any more likely to be town or scum, so if we can’t get more input from him I’d suggest he be a candidate for a vig if we have one.

Isa

I don’t think that sheeping is inherently scummy -- in fact I think it can be pro-town, especially at this point in the game where we have so little information and we need to create incentive for people to talk (and I like when people sheep my decisions ). But, one of the things that stuck out when I went back to review more in-depth was that he didn’t seem to have those reasons in mind when he bandwagoned.

* Here, Hascow places the first vote of the game on Umbrage.
* An hour and a half later, Isa places the second vote of the game also on Umbrage, creating our first bandwagon.

Given that he didn't post until over an hour after Hascow's, he must have seen Hascow's vote. At this point given he voted for Umbrage too I would think the reasoning would be to try and create some pressure. But, he essentially takes away any pressure there may be on the Umbrage wagon with this post when asked about it:

I'm completely cool with my vote, even though I couldn't predict that a bigger wagon would start.

I am not unvoting, there'd be little gain at this point.

TheFool's reason for jumping the wagon is odd but saying that "people" jumped the wagon for Cow (easier nick) having a reasoning behind the vote is not true, it was one person.

Regarding the wagon, we'll see where it goes. I have no idea.

Umbrage isn't anywhere near a lynch yet though, so I am not worried that a quicklynch will occur.

The bolded takes away the urgency any bandwagoning on Umbrage could create.

Isa also doesn't seem to understand pressure and its benefits:

I ALWAYS sheep. Sheeping is a null tell.

(I should get that as my siggy, already written on my wiki page) What would be the point of rephrasing what someone already has said, when in the end, you add just as much by just saying "I second what player x and y said"?

There was no point in keeping my vote on Umbrage because I had no case on him.

In the very beginning, there are no cases on anyone. We have to build up our knowledge as quickly as possible. Bandwagoning can help with that, even if you don't specifically have a case on someone.

Also, I don't like that he said (1) that he ALWAYS sheeps (which implies he doesn't have his own cases, but follows others. But if he has no case, then why would he vote per the above?) and (2) that sheeping is a null tell. I *agree* that sheeping is a null tell without more, but the two sentences together just rubbed me the wrong way...

Overall, I think Isa bears a closer examination.

Lupus

I didn't like Lupus' lack of follow-up in the exchange with Umbrage:

Hey Umbrage, who do you FoS at the moment?

You, for asking.

Right...

Well, I suppose it's as good a reason as any, at this stage.

And I really didn't like it when I learned that he didn't just fail to follow-up on his scumhunting, but he was never intending to scumhunt at all!

Wait, what? I never mentioned an FoS of Umbrage. I asked her who she FoSd, and she said me, for asking her. I posted I was okay with that (because you can't dig for information in this game without people getting suspicious of you) and that seems to be the post that got everyone in a tiff.

Follow up by this post... he mentions Fool & Isa as potential scum suspects (but possibly not! He doesn't want to commit to a read), but then says the bolded (which really bothers me):

I'm not sure about you. At the moment, it's too early for me to be even slightly confident on any reads. I'm keeping my eye on you and Isa, because you both seem to be bandwagoning/sheeping. However you're both being upfront about it "For the bandwagon!" "I like sheeping", so I'm not sure what to think of that.

I find it interesting that after the first few pages, when asked for her suspects,

Umbrage FoSd me for asking - while understandable, it also meant that she didn't really have to answer the question.

If Umbrage was just trying to avoid the question in his opinion, why isn't he pursuing it more?? Why isn't he stating that Umbrage is a scum suspect for trying to sidestep? What town motivation could there be for not wanting to answer a question on who is suspicious to them?

Hascow

and

Farside

Hascow and Farside have been going at it a bit with each other, but I get town reads from of them. Hascow I give a town read for immediately trying to move us out of RVS, for keeping the pressure on by waiting until reactions had come in before revealing his intent, and for wanting to research to compare Umbragescum to Umbragetown. Farside gets town points from me for actively scumhunting, wanting to try to lynch scum instead of making a policy lynch, and for doing research on Isa and Sorgster for meta.

[Lunitawolf]

Per my prior post:

VOTE: Isa
VOTE: Lupus

[Lunitawolf]

@Unknown
You stated that you were "shamelessly" sheeping Farside in post 108. Why were you sheeping her? Do you think she's town? If so, why?

@Benoni
You still have your RVS vote on Farside. Why? Who is your second top scum read?

[Lunitawolf]

People who I would love to see die
6.) Lunitawolf
Not in that order. In fact,

Vote #2 lunitawolf

Reason?

[Lunitawolf]

@TSQ A lot of posting happened over the weekend, and I didn't get a chance to give a meaty reply until Monday. If you still have doubts after reading that that you want to explore with me, let me know your questions, and I'll address.

@Benini The spoiler below is for you. I wasn't really feeling a case on you earlier, but your latest posts bug me. Can you help me out and address the following?

tl;dr for anyone who doesn't like walls:
(1) why are your naming 3 people as your scum reads, but not voting any of them
(2) why are you comfortable voting Sorgster when you say you're not comfortable voting the others because of the "state of the game"
(3) you giveth and taketh away: what's your read on Farside?
(4) Asking for clarification on the top 3 scum reads.

I need to go reevaluate my cases and see where Benini falls into my list. He was murky middle to me. Hopefully the answers here will help me.

Spoiler:

Here, you state:

My scum candidates right now are Qua, Lupus, and TSQ.

But you're not voting any of them. Instead, you're still voting Sorgster, who is no longer on your scummiest of scum list. Why?

So I wanted to wait a while to see what develops, given the state of the game, before attacking one in particular.

This would seem like an explanation of why you're not voting them, except for the fact that you've been comfortable voting and maintaining your vote on Sorgster despite "the state of the game." Why the difference in philosophy?

Also, you listed Lupus as your top scum read, but you're not voting him either:

Since you asked, Lupus is maybe the poster I think is least townish. It doesn't feel like he's generating content or making cases.

Why wouldn't you vote your top scum read?

I don't have any strong town reads. Farside seems the most townish. Her spirited defense of sorgster seemed really eyebrow-raising for a while.

If you find it suspicious that I had a back and forth with farside, I also found it suspicious.

Can you explain the bolded please? It's not clear to me what you're saying is suspicious.

Also, I'm not clear on your view of Farside right now. On one hand you say you think she seems town, but on another you seem to still be suspicious.

In your next post, you go back to saying that Sorgster is suspicious.

Farside,

I still don't like sorgster, if that wasn't clear.

Why I didn't attack Qua has already been explained:

Qua has really just started playing, and before that my 'scumread' was only based on that one strange post

What bothers me is:
If you still don't like Sorgster, that explains your vote on him, but it doesn't explain why:
(1) you didn't list him as a scum read just 3 posts earlier
(2) that you state your only reason for having a scumread on Qua was his one strange post, yet you have Qua on your scummiest of scum list and not Sorgster.

Thoughts?

I also don't understand why TSQ is on your scum list. In the post where you list your top scum reads you give as the reason you're not going after him as because "TSQ has just replaced in." But, in my ISO of you, I never saw mention of any suspicion of Andre, his predecessor, or of TSQ himself. What about him is making him scummy?

[Lunitawolf]

This quote is out of context. You asked me about my "second top scumread". Maybe I should have phrased things more clearly, but here I feel like the context makes it clear that sorgster was (and is) my first top scumread. Whatever.

Derp. You're right, I stand corrected. When I was ISOing you it stood out, given you still had your vote on Sorgster but had listed the other 3 as your scum reads. I didn't go back to read the post generating your response.

I wonder if there's a trap here, an intentional attempt to make me look bad, and I've fallen into it. "Benoni, post your scumreads". Ok. "Your scumreads aren't fleshed out." That's why I didn't post them before.

It's not a trap to list your scum reads and why. We all need to be doing that. Only by stating suspicions and probing on them and looking for conenctions can we get more information and, thus, a better sense of who is scum.

[Lunitawolf]

After reviewing things, I think that the case on Benoni is stronger than the case I had on Isa and should get my vote.

With Isa, I was basically suspicious because he says he always sheeps, but doesn't seem to understand the purpose of it (to create pressure to get information) and he effectively undercut the usefulness of bandwagoning by diffusing the pressure. But that case pales in comparison to Benoni listing scum suspects but with little to no reasoning provided and without a mention of those people beforehand. And the Isa case also pales in comparison to the Lupus case of failing to actively scumhunt and not really commit to any reads. And he's *still* not voting anyone.

So,

UNVOTE: Isa
VOTE: Benoni

Ben is now at L-1.

Barring something crazy, I think we should lynch one of those two today.

@Lupus We have two votes each ... why aren't you using any of yours?? You mention Farside and Isa are not your top priorities. But who are?

@Isa I'm not seeing Farside maliciously misrepresenting people. Can you please give a few concrete examples containing person's quote, Farside's quote characterizing the initial person's statement, and brief explanation on how that's it's a scum-motivated misrepresentation?

@Qua Would you mind changing your ISO order away from alphabetical and look on Lupus next? Would be good to get your thoughts on him.

@Rufflig, Umbrage, Unknown, Benoni, Lupus: You guys are currently not on the Benoni or Lupus bandwagons. Please give us your thoughts on Ben and Lupus and either (1) give a commitment on who you would vote for today [although careful with the Ben vote since any vote would be a hammer at this point] or (2) explain why the person(s) you're voting for are scummier than they are.
- @Ben/Lupus - obviously asking you about Lupus/Ben wagon respectively.

[Lunitawolf]

@Mod and all: I'm going on a last-minute getaway this weekend with limited to no internet access, so will be V/LA Friday afternoon (CST) until Monday afternoon.

I'll go through the thread and post updated thoughts before I go tomorrow.

[Lunitawolf]

Running out the door shortly to catch my flight. But before I do:

@Unknown: Here is the question you were asking me. Answer below.

@Unknown
You stated that you were "shamelessly" sheeping Farside in post 108. Why were you sheeping her?

Do you think she's town? If so, why?

Because I agreed with her point. I do have a town read on farside at the moment. It's more to do with how actie she's been in creating discussion, rather than anything in particular she's said. What was the purpose of these questions?

Point was to find out why you were sheeping Farside and to get a better sense on your read of her.

* Re: Sorgster Meta
I went through and looked at some of his other games as well, ISOing him, and his posts seemed to have the same flavor as here. I'm not really seeing anything that he's doing wildly different. I agree he could be adding more, but I feel that he has at least provided reasons for his scum reads (even if he had to be prompted), whereas others haven't!

I think you guys should join me on a Lupus or Benoni wagon!

@Umbrage Not up for lynching Farside, as I have a town read on her. Plus, she has given town reads. She is pretty aggressive, but I don't see that as inherently scummy - it's also useful as town.

Talk to you guys on Monday.

[Lunitawolf]

Back from V/LA. Still need to catch up on sleep though, so will read through what's happened this weekend and post on it after that.

But for now,

@Sorgster,

Why are you voting for TSQ and XVart? Why did you remove your vote on Lupus? He remains the second biggest train, and you said your rationale for voting for Lupus was 'better him than you'. So what's changed?

[Lunitawolf]

Okay, sorry for the delay in posting again. I fell behind being gone, but I think I'm finally starting to get caught up.

Here are my current thoughts. Sorry for the random stream of consciousness, but this post is taking way too long and I should be turning my attention back to work soon.

I have a pretty strong town reading on The Fool. I like the content of his posts, and I feel like he's being open and sound in his analysis.

I have no idea how to read Umbrage.

I like the new Lupus, he's taking the bull by the horns and giving reasons. At some point, I should do a more careful reading of old Lupus positions with new Lupus (Glados) positions, but for now, I'll go based on Glados' current posts.
UNVOTE: Lupus/Glados

I don't want to lynch Sorgster today. I'd like to see him give more analysis in his posts, but he's posting the same as I've read him in other games I looked at, and I don't think he's reading the scummiest.

I don't agree with the votes on Rufflig. He's been reading town to me.

@Xvart in response to:

Lunitawolf

:

Post 271

- Why did you choose to unvote Isa to vote for Ben instead of unvoting Lupus?

I explained it here:

After reviewing things, I think that the case on Benoni is stronger than the case I had on Isa and should get my vote.

With Isa, I was basically suspicious because he says he always sheeps, but doesn't seem to understand the purpose of it (to create pressure to get information) and he effectively undercut the usefulness of bandwagoning by diffusing the pressure. But that case pales in comparison to Benoni listing scum suspects but with little to no reasoning provided and without a mention of those people beforehand. And the Isa case also pales in comparison to the Lupus case of failing to actively scumhunt and not really commit to any reads. And he's *still* not voting anyone.

Essentially, I felt that my case on Lupus was stronger than the case I had on Isa, so I kept my vote on him.

My top town reads are:
The Fool
Hascow
Farside - I disagree with her read on Hascow, but I think her heart is in the right place.

Top scum reads are:
Benoni
Isa

Benoni

- I don't like his rational for his TSQ vote. I don't find TSQ commenting on Andre looking scummy as inherently scummy. I replaced into Newbie 1143 and thought the guy I had replaced had said something pretty wacky for no apparent reason as I could see, and I called it out as well (I was VT). It's a weak case to hang a vote on, and I don't like that Benoni seems so focused on it.

Isa

I'm back on the Isa bandwagon because:
- I didn't like:

What I said in #373 is me being dumb and trying to justify something that was made out to be an active choice, but was actually not - I did not leave out Umbrage and Q on purpose.

- Also because she unvoted Sorgster the very next post after Glados said he'd expect to see scum on that wagon.

3.)

The speed of the sorgster and Lupus Vega wagons are somewhat disturbing. Weak players make easy targets, and I fully expect a scum or two on each wagon. Even if sorgster is scum, I would anticipate at least one of his voters bussing. I will look into it later.

When Q made his unvote I was already voting him. I missed the unvote of Umbrage.

Anyway...UNVOTE: sorgster[/vote] I've gotten an increasing feeling that my read on him is wrong and that he's more of a VI/lazytown rather than scum. #349 seems too blunt for scum, openly admitting to saving his own skin.

lolwhoops
UNVOTE: sorgster

VOTE: Isa

[Lunitawolf]

Ugh... I am getting so confused over where to focus on in this game, as we don't seem to have any strong consensus - let alone majority - on anyone so far. Maybe we should be tallying who are the people we are leaning strong town on, to see if we can get consensus there, and if we do, ask anyone voting for those people to move their vote off and see if we can get a consensus on who is looking scummiest that way.

My top town list is Fool, Hascow, and Farside. No one is voting Fool or Farside, but 2 people are voting for Hascow: xvart and Farside.

@Xvart and Farside

If you couldn't vote for Hascow (or Fool or Farside), where would you place your second vote?

@Umbrage

Where is your town read on Isa coming from? I have him on my scum list...

Over my next break, I will go ISO Glados and Rufflig and see if I spot anything there that didn't stand out to me before. But right now, I've had a town vibe from Rufflig, and I liked how Glados came into Lupus' spot and started giving reasons and analysis, which moved me away from my scum read on that spot.

@All

Can people please give me their updated reads on Benoni and Isa, and reasons for their reads? I feel like they're getting lost in the shuffle.

Thanks.

[Lunitawolf]

People who are voting for GLaDOS should unvote. Deadline is fast approaching, and we shouldn't risk lynching a town PR. While I agree that he should not have claimed as early as he did, his RL reasons make sense (sorry to hear about the Bar). And I don't understand why some think that his claimed power is scummy. I think the ability to end the day without a night cycle is very beneficial for us -- especially in later days, so I would prefer not to use his power today. I get that roleblocker can stop town powers, and can be a scum role, but it can also be a town power too and stop scum kills. So while it doesn't make him conftown to claim he's quicklyncher/roleblocker, I think it does make him unlynchable today.

That said, I'm not convinced on his case on Rufflig, and I much prefer an Isa lynch.

[Lunitawolf]

I am Wowbagger, the Infinitely Prolonged. My task is to insult every single being that has ever lived (as well as winning with the town).
Each night I can target someone - that person gets an insult (I asked the mod if I could send him my own insult, and he agreed). Insulted persons are roleblocked. I must insult someone every night.
MY ROLE IS CONFIRMABLE. Day 2, I will reveal who I insulted and the insult, and that person will post the insult as well. If he/she claims that he/she didn't receive an insult, that person should be lynched.

The tricky part of my role is of course that just like with GLaDOS, it can be aligned both to town and scum.

I can't do a lot more than this.

ALSO, I think the mod made a slip in my PM: There's no Serial Killer in this setup, I am pretty sure. This is because Wowbagger is supposed to be immortal - he is in the books - but I am not immortal in this game for obvious balance purposes and so, if I am targeted for a nightkill by the villains, I will still be thrown out of an airlock and die. The specific mention of "villains" makes me think that there's just one evil part.

(1) I don't understand your claimed role ... What happens to your wincon if someone is lynched/killed before you can insult them? What happens if you are blocked one night and can't insult? You making night actions that only benefit yourself actually hurts us, because it creates confusion with watching/tracking people.

(2) Also, why are you not providing a full claim if you feel the need to claim right now? (See the bolded, which implies that you are holding back)

(3) How can you possibly be so certain on your setup analysis to say that there is no serial killer before Day 1 has even ended and only one person has outed their role so far?

(4) How is the role confirmable? It seems if you say tomorrow you insulted PLAYER by saying X, and PLAYER agrees that happened, that tends to confirm it, but if the PLAYER disavows it, it comes down to a he-said/she-said - not an automatic lynch of PLAYER. What am I missing?

That role, if anything, reads as a third party/survivor role to me. This claim doesn't make sense to me.

[Lunitawolf]

I am Wowbagger, the Infinitely Prolonged. My task is to insult every single being that has ever lived (as well as winning with the town).
Each night I can target someone - that person gets an insult (I asked the mod if I could send him my own insult, and he agreed). Insulted persons are roleblocked. I must insult someone every night.
MY ROLE IS CONFIRMABLE. Day 2, I will reveal who I insulted and the insult, and that person will post the insult as well. If he/she claims that he/she didn't receive an insult, that person should be lynched.

The tricky part of my role is of course that just like with GLaDOS, it can be aligned both to town and scum.

I can't do a lot more than this.

ALSO, I think the mod made a slip in my PM: There's no Serial Killer in this setup, I am pretty sure. This is because Wowbagger is supposed to be immortal - he is in the books - but I am not immortal in this game for obvious balance purposes and so, if I am targeted for a nightkill by the villains, I will still be thrown out of an airlock and die. The specific mention of "villains" makes me think that there's just one evil part.

(1) I don't understand your claimed role ... What happens to your wincon if someone is lynched/killed before you can insult them? What happens if you are blocked one night and can't insult? You making night actions that only benefit yourself actually hurts us, because it creates confusion with watching/tracking people.

(2) Also, why are you not providing a full claim if you feel the need to claim right now? (See the bolded, which implies that you are holding back)

(3) How can you possibly be so certain on your setup analysis to say that there is no serial killer before Day 1 has even ended and only one person has outed their role so far?

(4) How is the role confirmable? It seems if you say tomorrow you insulted PLAYER by saying X, and PLAYER agrees that happened, that tends to confirm it, but if the PLAYER disavows it, it comes down to a he-said/she-said - not an automatic lynch of PLAYER. What am I missing?

That role, if anything, reads as a third party/survivor role to me. This claim doesn't make sense to me.

1. My "task" is just flavor. I am purely town-aligned.
2. I'll answer this with a question. Have you read the books which feature Wowbagger?
3. Mild speculating.
4. Well I am obviously not going to argue for my own lynch, right? It's between me and that person. I am not going to vote myself. In the end, it should be between me and that person for the lynch of that day. One of us is lying and I know it is not me. From my PoV, it's an automatic lynch of PLAYER that's the ideal course of action.

1. So you still win with us even if you don't insult anyone?

2. I read all of the books a long time ago and saw the BBC version and the last movie, but I clearly don't remember all of the details, as I don't remember Wowbagger at all.

4. I understand from your POV that if you say you insulted someone, and that person says otherwise, you would want to lynch them ... but that's a different point than saying that your role is confirmable (read: confirmable to people other than you; of course you're already confirmable to yourself).

Your claim seems off to me, and I don't really trust it.

--

@ALL I don't think Umbrage is a good lynch target today. I ISOed him, and he's been actively scumhunting, instead of just focused on his own survival. I take that as a strong town tell because if he gets killed, he's leaving us potentially useful food for thought instead of just posts of why he shouldn't be killed (which don't help afterthefact).

[Lunitawolf]

we have a roleblocker as well as a 1-night full roleblock?

I think I misread GLaDOS' role: "One-Shot Quick-Lyncher and Universal-Roleblocker". I was reading that as "one-shot" as only modifying "quick-lyncher," which I thought included the power of it bringing up the next day automatically, and that in addition to having a one-shot power, he was also a roleblocker after the one-shot was used up. But, reading back, I think "one-shot" modifies universal-roleblocker too.

[Lunitawolf]

we have a roleblocker as well as a 1-night full roleblock?

Derp. My reading comprehension skills go down as my need for coffee goes up.

Yes, Isa is claiming mandatory roleblocker, GLaDOS is claiming one-shot ability to skip night.

[Lunitawolf]

Sorry for not believing you, Isa.

Not an ideal use of GLaDOS' power, but on the positive side, the use of it makes him pretty much confirmed town in my eyes, as I can't see scum being able to drive a daykill that way, even with the limitation, and cut off all of town's night actions.

I'm going to go back through the thread and reread in light of what we've learned about Isa/GLaDOS before voting again.

[Lunitawolf]

EBWOP: Not an ideal use of GLaDOS' power, but on the positive side, the use of it makes HER pretty much confirmed town in my eyes.... [Sorry I keep messing your gender up!]

[Lunitawolf]

NOOOOOOOOOO

GLADOS IS SCUUUUUUUUUUUUM

anyway she's a VT now so we should lynch her.

@Umbrage

Why do you still think GLaDOS is scum now that she's proven her power? How would it make sense for scum to have that ability?

Why do you feel the need to say this?

@Hascow

Because although Isa can't post anymore, he can still read the thread. I was conflicted when I read his claim because although I had a scum read on him and his claim didn't make sense to me, I was worried about being wrong. I debated whether to leave my vote, and ultimately decided to do so, because I decided to trust my scum read on him. In hindsight, he obviously was telling the truth, and if I had believed him and unvoted, and voted for someone else, then we might have ended up with a different lynch and thus an opportunity to have gotten it right.

@Sorgster

GLaDOS told us she was a one-shot quicklyncher, so unless you think she's lying, she's used her one-shot. Do you not think she's town?

[Lunitawolf]

I read through the entire thread again today. I had hoped to write a longer post, but a short post will have to do for now because I desperately need sleep before early morning flight for work.

GlaDOS is confirmed town to me, and I still feel good about Fool, Hascow, and Farside being town. I think Umbrage is town from his reaction to being run up, but I don't agree with his case on GLaDOS or Rufflig, who still reads as town to me on my reread.

So, that leaves Benoni, Xvart, TSQ, Sorgster, and Unknown for my vote pool.

Sorgster I'm not sure what to do with... while I do think he's been relatively consistent in his meta, there are things that are making me wonder if this is what Sorgsterscum would look like ... he said yesterday that GLaDOS should have used his power even though it would have killed Sorgster because he was being scummy. That self-awareness of being scummy gave me pause.

Unknown and TSQ have been too off the radar. I know TSQ is being replaced, so we'll see what the replacement brings.

More later, but for now sleep.

[Lunitawolf]

Sorgster I'm not sure what to do with... while I do think he's been relatively consistent in his meta, there are things that are making me wonder if this is what Sorgsterscum would look like ... he said yesterday that GLaDOS should have used his power even though it would have killed Sorgster because he was being scummy. That self-awareness of being scummy gave me pause.

Look at newbie 1155 at my rqs answers.

Okay...

1) what's your timezone?
2) do you prefer being town or scum (or if this is your first game, what do you think you would prefer?)

1. My timezone is est
2. I probably would prefer playing scum. You have more information and there is less second guessing.

What do you want this to show me?

[Lunitawolf]

Vote Farside22

This shouldn't be changing anytime soon either. I'm completely with unknown on this one. I know I'm a bit of a vi but his umbrage case makes perfect sense.

Are you voting Farside just because she disagrees with the Unknown's case on Umbrage or because you think she's independently scummy? And if the latter, why?

[Lunitawolf]

Okay, I'm still in the process of re-reading, but already my scumdar's been pinged.

vote: Lunitawolf

Most of her posts are just weak questions that seem like scum pretending to be town. They don't have much weight behind them and don't really further the town's interests at all. I'll need to read more to see her interactions with the Isa lynch wagon that eventually builds up, but so far she's my number one suspect.

Show me how your predecessors' posts have had more weight to them and have really furthered town's interests more than mine. (Hint: You can't.) For that matter, show me how Unknown's or Sorgster's posts have had more weight to them and really furthered town's interests more than mine.

I ask questions, listen to answers, determine what I'm feeling and then post my case once I feel like I've gotten enough data.

I'm reading sorgster as just mislynch bait. His actions really don't make much sense from a scum perspective. That make's Lunitawolf's L-1 vote on him very suspect, especially since she didn't say anything about him being at L-1, and doesn't really acknowledge the fact that she put him at L-1 later.

Sorgster has acted scummy, as he himself admits. And just like someone being new doesn't mean they aren't new and scum, just because he has an odd meta doesn't mean that he doesn't have an odd meta and is scum. The official vote count was only 2 posts before mine on the same page, and him being at L-1 was pointed out right after I posted. I'm going to vet him until I'm comfortable.

@Hascow Because although Isa can't post anymore, he can still read the thread. I was conflicted when I read his claim because although I had a scum read on him and his claim didn't make sense to me, I was worried about being wrong. I debated whether to leave my vote, and ultimately decided to do so, because I decided to trust my scum read on him. In hindsight, he obviously was telling the truth, and if I had believed him and unvoted, and voted for someone else, then we might have ended up with a different lynch and thus an opportunity to have gotten it right.

Ok, and why couldn't this wait until postgame? This seems rather similar to "good job doc" in terms of things that scum are more likely to say in order to try to seem town. I don't like it.

Because I felt bad. I don't like it when I get a lynch wrong and kick a town player out of the game, and I acknowledge it.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p3428000

GlaDOS is confirmed town to me

Why? Why do you feel any sort of "confirmation" besides that glados is Ford Prefect?

Because I've never heard of scum dayvig, she came out with her power before she had to, she used her power, when if she was scum she could have allowed a no lynch to occur and then used the power tomorrow.

I read through the entire thread again today. I had hoped to write a longer post, but a short post will have to do for now because I desperately need sleep before early morning flight for work.

GlaDOS is confirmed town to me, and I still feel good about Fool, Hascow, and Farside being town. I think Umbrage is town from his reaction to being run up, but I don't agree with his case on GLaDOS or Rufflig, who still reads as town to me on my reread.

So, that leaves Benoni, Xvart, TSQ, Sorgster, and Unknown for my vote pool.

Sorgster I'm not sure what to do with... while I do think he's been relatively consistent in his meta, there are things that are making me wonder if this is what Sorgsterscum would look like ... he said yesterday that GLaDOS should have used his power even though it would have killed Sorgster because he was being scummy. That self-awareness of being scummy gave me pause.

Unknown and TSQ have been too off the radar. I know TSQ is being replaced, so we'll see what the replacement brings.

More later, but for now sleep.

Ok, so you say this, but don't do anything with it. What do you mean? How are you leaning on these players? What about them is influencing that read? This is pretty much a whole lot of nothing. You list a bunch of people in your vote pool, say that sorgster's confusing and that unknown and TSQ(now Bub) are off the radar. This looks like "posting just to post" as opposed to anything actually helpful.

I had spent my entire break that day reading through the thread trying to draw conclusions. I was having doubts as to which two were my strongest and was unsure where I wanted to place my votes, so I didn't vote but I wanted to get my thoughts out there before I left the next morning for my business trip. Not only did I list my suspect list, I also listed my town read.

And, I note, my post was a lot more helpful than the "posting just to post" that you did with posts like:

ugh, I'm getting lazy. This is bad. I'll have something tomorrow guys.

You haven't voted today either, or really advanced your own thoughts, so I really don't like the hypocrisy.

I got back from my trip at 2am last night and am going on only four hours of sleep right now because I had appointments this morning. So I have neither the will nor ability to go into a long case analysis.

I do agree we should get this day going though. So:

VOTE: Unknown
VOTE: Bub

[Lunitawolf]

Welcome, VE! Fancy meeting you again.

I'm voting for

Bub

because if you look at him in ISO the only thing he has done so far this game is tunnel on me, while not even commenting on the main trains or to give out reads except as to justify his vote on me. It reads like he just picked out a person arbitrarily away from the action and hasn't bothered to read or form opinions on the others except as needed to support his vote. Yet, if he was town, he'd admit that he still needs to do so. His main argument is weak, as he has yet to show what specific questions of mine are "weak," as is his response to my challenge regarding his predecessor. He says "I feel like TSQ contributed much more to the game than you" but doesn't show/say how. It's annoying having someone attack you using a reason that they are guilty of.

Furthermore, although he voted for me four days ago, he has yet to use his second vote or to even voice suspicion about anyone else.

I voted for

Unknown

because when I was thinking about my list of suspects (@Hascow, the list was created in part by PoE as I have gotten a better feeling on town reads than scum reads and part based on their own actions (like Sorgster) or being under the radar), I felt like I didn't have a good sense on him, as he had been under the radar, he hadn't provided much on Day 2 (and still hasn't, but he said he was going to post more thoughts later), and his case on Umbrage didn't make logical sense to me. He thought Umbrage was scummy for no longer voting for GLaDOS, but Umbrage made it clear that he was giving up on it because people weren't listening, not because he changed his mind. And to me, that's a pro-town sign to not keep your vote somewhere where it won't get any use and essentially would remove 50% of your power.

@Sorgster

Why did you claim when you only had two votes on you?

[Lunitawolf]

@VE

It would be nice to be able to trust you.. you were my sole supporter last game! But you were also scum which made me sad, so let's take it slow this time. I'm happy to talk things over with you though, of course. I'll be especially happy if you can convince me to move your slot from my voting pool to my town list.

Also, To respond to you re: my vote on Bub. While, yes, the slot has been plagued with inactivity problems, it's also what's happened with the activity that has been there. ISO Andre/TSQ/Bub, and you won't find much there. I'm hesitant to let a slot slide too long without committing reads on people, due to our 1158 game where Charles was able to active lurk to endgame.

You asked me about Hascow, Xvart, and Umbrage. I think Hascow and Umbrage are town. I would be willing to examine Xvart more closely.

I'm still undecided on Sorgster. The wiki says flavor cops are normally town, but I still don't understand why he claimed. GLaDOS, who he was defending, wasn't in immediate danger of being lynched, as she wasn't at L-1 yet.

@Bub

Have you read all the way through? Where are you on your re-read and who is your second suspect?

Also, spoiler re: listing TSQ as possible vote for today before Bub voted

Spoiler:

You

never

voiced any suspision of me or either of my predecessors before I voted for you.

Actually:

So,

that leaves

Benoni, Xvart,

TSQ

, Sorgster, and Unknown

for my vote pool.

Unknown and

TSQ have been too off the radar. I know TSQ is being replaced, so we'll see what the replacement brings.

...

vote: Lunitawolf

[Lunitawolf]

... Trying to get people talking on Day 1 is not scummy.

For example, the first quote you used was on page 2, post #27. FYI, the game officially started with Imaginality's post #17. So the above was the ninth post of the game and the first post of the game that asked any questions of anyone.

I brought up one of your completed games to see how you address Day 1:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2860729

How does it feel to be obv-scum when you've only posted once?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2861125

Kairyuu, how can you put a non-random vote on somebody in a game that just got out of confirmation?

You were town in that game. Explain why your questions weren't scummy and mine are.

PEdit: You're also now changing your argument saying that I *never* voiced suspicion about your slot to now saying that my suspicion wasn't reasonable. Different argument.

It feels to me like you're trying to nail a square peg into a round hole, and it's suspicious.

[Lunitawolf]

Hey guys. Had hoped to get a chance on road to catch up and post before heading home but haven't had a chance and am about to board flight. Will catch up and post tomorrow.

Don't replace out VE.

[Lunitawolf]

@Umbrage

Are you basing the view GLaDOS is confirmed town on his being Ford Prefect, since a Vogon was scum?

If we had Sorg here we could have done a mass flavor claim and have him check those who were suspicious. I was toying with whether to suggest we do that anyway, but I'm not sure that would really give us any usable data right now. Especially as VE seems to be claiming (?) being a Vogon and not scum.

@Bub,

Did you think you were hammering Rufflig when you placed your vote (again) on him? Why didn't you ask for a claim?

VOTE: Bub
Voting for Bub for the 'hammer'

VOTE: Xvart

Rufflig voted for Xvart yesterday, yet Rufflig never pushes the Xvart wagon. So he wasn't using his vote to try and get a town mislynch. The alternative is that he placed his vote on his buddy to try and gain town cred down the line.

[Lunitawolf]

@Xvart if you think claiming is a bad idea for us right now, why did you claim that you were the one that targeted Umbrage?

[Lunitawolf]

I find it humorous that everyone seems to be considering me a possible SK....that Umbrage AND Farside somehow overlooked the fact that an SK was killed LAST NIGHT.

??? What do you mean an SK was killed last night?

A neighbor and a thief died... neither description listed killing as one of their powers.

UNVOTE: Bub
VOTE: VE

Also, if you're saying that being Vogon != definitely being scum, then by that token
being Vogon != definitely being town either, due to Rufflig

[Lunitawolf]

VE, no, you still haven't shown one good reason why I'm scum. So shut up about that please. Thank you.

Lunitawolf, what do you think about xvart?

@Umbrage

I think he's scum, and we should lynch him. As mentioned, Rufflig voted for him yesterday but never pushed the wagon. Xvart also was voting for Rufflig. This makes me suspect a bus. Also, I can't think of the town motivation for the partial claim, especially given his later statements: that we shouldn't claim, that he partially claimed to stop speculation. He said in response to my question about why he partially claimed was because town was getting off track and he didn't want town to self-implode, but he didn't state that as a reason when he first did it. And he should have expected people would examine his claim once out there.

Also, I think we should let VE live if he agrees to let us direct his kill. Given we know the flavor of his kill method, we'll be able to know if he complied and that can be used to help us determine if he is Vig, SK, or Mafia.

OMG my games are mixed up



Ignore the shit about SK.

Verified.
UNVOTE:

@VE

Are you willing to let town choose your target?

Also, if you're saying that being Vogon != definitely being scum, then by that token
being Vogon != definitely being town either, due to Rufflig

I'm not sure what to say here...I'm not saying I'm definitely town because I'm Vogon. I'm saying I'm more than likely town because I have a killing power role, and it seems ridiculous to assume that scum would have night KP + PR KP. Not impossible...just not bloody likely. Your Bub vote was right on sista...you don't have to remove your vote from me, but PLEASE put another vote on Bub s'il vous plait.

My point wasn't to the argument you're making about yourself being town. It was to the point about your argument about why you think Xvart is town. You said you didn't suspect him because his power is similar to yours, and your power (the poetry recital) is related to being Vogon.

Either character relates to alignment or it doesn't and it's random. From your POV, I think you'd have to believe that character is NOT related to alignment, because if it *does* then you and Xvart are confirmed scum with Rufflig, as he worked for the Vogons (thanks, Fool, for correcting me that Gag wasn't a Vogon himself).

If character does NOT relate to alignment, then you shouldn't think that Xvart is more likely to be town than scum just because he's a Vogon with a similar poetry-reading ability (or another race whose poetry is even worse). Therefore, if you are town, you shouldn't think that another Vogon would necessarily also be town.

[Lunitawolf]

Oops, didn't mean to unvote everyone.

VOTE: Xvart

[Lunitawolf]

@Umbrage Why do you think VE is more likely scum than Xvart? If only one of Xvart or VE is scum, I'd place my money on it being Xvart.

The one thing that points to VE being scum is Sorgster's role and that he's a Vogon. If there is no association, then what was the point of his role? Why would people lie about what their character name was? But this is only a minor point and I think the stronger evidence points to VE not being scum. (And it's possible Sorgster's role was there just to catch people who would lie for lying's sake and get punished for it)

Cutting against the theory that VE is scum is that both VE and Xvart have come out and claimed Vogon/poetry-reading race. If character is directly associated with alignment, then it would be pretty ballsy of both of them to come out and say that's what they were. Additionally cutting against that theory is that no one has come out and claimed the kill on Hascow. Thus, it makes it unlikely that VE is mafia pretending to be vig.

Therefore, I think VE is not scum.

If VE is not scum, then that means character is not associated with alignment.

I think Xvart is scum. I cannot think of a town motivation for coming out and half claiming like he did. First, he should not have claimed at all as neither himself nor VE were in imminent danger of being lynched. So it's not like he came out with it to save a potential mislynch on VE. Also, he says it's a bad idea to do a mass claim today. But, yet, his actions don't support that. By coming out and claiming an active power, he's already creating the harm he purports to want to avoid. Furthermore, his claim that he partially claimed to get people to stop focusing on Umbrage being targeted doesn't hold up either. (And contrary to his assertion, I wasn't attempting to misconstrue what he said when he partially claimed. He's admitted that his statements that would support that argument weren't as strong as he would have thought). Factor that in along with the cross-bus from yesterday, and all signs point to scum.

Re: VE, I'm leaning towards him being SK over Vig, given he hasn't responded to my question about whether he'll allow us to direct his next night shot. But, I think it's worth keeping him alive an extra day because he can't hide who he kills from us given we know the flavor of his kills now. If he kills someone besides who we want or kills someone who is generally thought of as town, we'll know he's more likely SK and can lynch him then. But if he is vig, he can be useful in helping us catch the remaining scum.

@Unknown When I said "more later, sleep now" I was saying that I wanted to get more involved in the thread, but my work trip and lack of sleep were preventing me from contributing beyond what I posted that day. The "more" was in reference to getting more involved, not in any particular statement.

[Lunitawolf]

@fool does it reset the deadline counter too or just votes?

I've never heard of that role but I suppose it could make people think twice if you really felt strongly against a lynch and wanted people to reconsider.

[Lunitawolf]

I haven't claimed yet because we were doing the popcorn method and Unknown was up next. I'll see if he posts anything this afternoon and go from there. Once we get the full claims, I think ALL of us should post our thoughts about each of the remaining alive players. As far as my past views, I've been pretty open about my thoughts on town/scum suspects.

I agree we shouldn't hold up the game too long waiting on the popcorn method, especially if it looks like we will need an Unknown replacement in addition to a Farside replacement (does anyone know if she tends to replace out more as town/scum or if it's null?)

[Lunitawolf]

Okay, looks like we're not going to be getting any information out of Unknown anytime soon. So I'll go ahead and claim. Once replacements come in for both Farside and Unknown, I'd like one of their first posts to be a full claim so that we can get the entire picture.

I am Veet Voojang, and I'm a Confused Inventor. I've used my brilliance to figure out where all the brios have gone, and I have now turned that brilliance towards coming up with brio-based inventions. I have some prototypes but they got mixed up, so I don't know what does what, and are jumbled with my regular pens. Each night I can give a pen to someone, but I won't know what, if anything, it does.

I didn't give anyone a pen last night because this is my first game with an inventor, and I haven't decided on what the best way to play it is, as I don't know if the pens could be hurtful or helpful. This is a confirmable role, as the person who I give the pen to will know it.

We have claims on everyone now, except Unknown (and Farside has given a partial claim). Given all the claims we do have, including the confirmed claims from the dead, my suspicion is turning more towards Bub now, as he is the only one claiming completely vanilla, which doesn't seem to be fitting in with the theme.

To answer Umbrage's question on VE flip/Xvart, if VE flips scum I think Xvart is more likely scum because it gives more credence to the view of flavour impacting alignment). If VE flips town, I think it's a null point on Xvart as it would show that flavour and alignment are not matched. But, I'm not willing to lynch VE today because if he's Vig we need him. And if he's SK we can deal with him after we find scum.

VOTE: Bub

[Lunitawolf]

My current Scum to Town List:

Xvart
Bub
Unknown
Farside
Fool
VE
Umbrage
GLaDOS

[Lunitawolf]

Welcome, medic.

Sounds good re: gifting GLaDOS.

Pine & medic, can we get a claim from you two please.

I'll think through later tonight about optimal lynch/targeting for tonight, but probably won't be able to post thoughts on it until tomorrow. (At the airport about to board).

[Lunitawolf]

@VE It's possible you could target xvart, while xvart targets Umbrage and they both go through?

[Lunitawolf]

Gah, okay... so Fool is treestumped, which means we're down to 8 remaining people. The silver lining, though, is that he is now confirmed and can still speak. Since scum can't get rid of him, and we know we can trust him, he can definitely be a good sounding board as we work out lynching the remaining team.

@Fool, please share any and all thoughts that occur to you, as you're the only one we can all 100% trust.

@medic I don't understand why you would use a power before reading up where we were? Also, yeah... not buying the miller claim.

@Pine, can you please give a full claim / name / ability please. We know that Farside claimed neighbors with Hascow, but we weren't fulling claiming at the time.

Re Plan:

Other than disagreeing with my name being on the lynch list, in general it looks fine, except that I wouldn't direct VE tonight. To Fool's point re VE, if scum have a roleblocker then it wouldn't matter who VE targeted because they'd block VE. so no kill would go through. But, I do agree we should leave VE undirected so scum won't have complete knowledge of our plans.

Also, I'm suspicious of Xvart's claim, because I thought the only normal role for a bodyguard was that the bodyguard dies if the person he targets dies... not if the person he targets goes off and kills someone else....
@Xvart can you confirm again? Do you die if you target someone who is targeted or if you target someone who does the targeting?

I feel comfortable giving the invention to GLaDOS, but if people prefer Umbrage I'd do that too.

I think the remaining scum are in medic, Xvart, Bub, and Pine. Fool is confirmed town, I know I'm not scum, VE is either town or SK but not mafia, and I have pretty good town reads on Umbrage and GLaDOS.

So, I think we lynch medic today.

PEdit: Just saw Bub voted medic, so want to check vote count before placing vote.

[Lunitawolf]

My vote would be fourth, putting medic at L-1. I'm not going to vote yet so as to prevent an early self-hammer.

[Lunitawolf]

My full role name is "Confused Inventor"

@Bub do you have the ability to attract rain in the game? You're definitely sticking out as the odd man.

@medic where did you play before?

[Lunitawolf]

@Pine We're not lynching VE today. If he's a town vig he's a help to us. If he's SK, we need to take care of him eventually, but he also has a motivation to help us get rid of scum since he'd be at risk from them too.

I'll support a lynch on either medic or Bub today. Pine put Bub at L-1. Are we ready for a hammer?

Still L-2; Pine was already voting Bub. I'm onto it

this time...

[Lunitawolf]

Good game, all, and thanks for modding, Imaginality! I really enjoyed the flavor.

This game was fun but pretty stressful for me. I felt bad going after people I knew weren't scum, and there were times I'd just stare at the screen and have trouble writing anything out because it all felt scummy. And, yeah, Bub, you scared me when you replaced in!

Look forward to playing with you all again.