#335 Road to Perdition - Finiretur (<- Over)

[chaotic_diablo]

vote chaotic_diablo

[chaotic_diablo]

oops didnt see him do it.

but max does it every game so he deserve the vote more. i think its now 3 in a row. im getting tired of it.

You've obviously have never met me before.

I don't think Max is lying. Considering that he voted in an unrandom fashion, he just might be telling the truth.

[chaotic_diablo]

In my defense, the bandwagon is just part of a conspiracy to rid the world of an outspoken minority that can cause no harm to the town at all.

[chaotic_diablo]

Heh. "The Mutual Greetings Newbie Friendship Club"... I can see why that would raise a few eyebrows.

The self-voters do strike me as pretty odd and FOS worthy.
@ c_d: that's a bit vague, how does it tie in to your actions?

Simple, nothing. People just use it as an excuse to scapegoat someone for a bandwagon. It's the same as the question "How does a random vote tie in with your actions?". I find it hard to understand why players dislike it and name it "suspicious" when there actually isn't anything suspicious about/behind it.

[chaotic_diablo]

Simple, nothing. People just use it as an excuse to scapegoat someone for a bandwagon.

as a member of the town you should be helping us find scum. voteing for yourself is not. scapegoat or not, your not useful.

Neither are you. Randomly voting people because of a signature, s/n, or etc is just as useless. In fact, selfvoting brings something up to the table to talk about.
1. people who are willing to kill off a scapegoat are scumtells
2. A bandwagon comes up and discussion can be reached
3. the opinions of most people can be distinguished

I haven't seen any real arguments on how a selfvote is bad or 'useless'.

Actually, I was more interesed in how you were pre-emptively reflective about it, while Max was not. It wasn't the vote itself, it was how you reacted to your own vote and called attention to it.

Mostly because I found another selfvoter, only to find out that Max just had a bad random streak. Aside from that, I just called attention to it to disprove raj's assumption.

[chaotic_diablo]

Mostly because I found another selfvoter, only to find out that Max just had a bad random streak. Aside from that, I just called attention to it to disprove raj's assumption.

Says you. I still think it looks like you were trying to pre-empt the attention you're receiving now.

Right, I'm intentionally letting myself get lynched.

[chaotic_diablo]

While self-voting is idiotic, it should have been clear from my post that my vote on c_d was not for behaving idiotically, but for the strange fact that both he and Max were self-voters. Links between players make me think that they are evil.

Max said he coincidentally had himself on random.org and has drawn himself for the past three games or something. I voted because I always do so. Your link is just a false assumption between two bizarre actions that happen independently from each other.

If chaotic_diablo was intending this to be some trap for people who were just looking for a scapegoat, I would recommend that next time he a) picks a behaviour which is unique - anything shared is suspicious! and b) picks a behaviour which is not suicidal. If he's town, he's knowingly voting for a pro-town player. So if he isn't scum, he's dangerous to the town.

If I knowingly vote for a protown player, myself, then it only proves that I know what I'm doing. Players who knowingly vote for a person of unknown allegiance, don't. However, can you really reflect and base a person's judgement and opinion just by one vote? No, so your making a premature assumption.

You have brought new information to light, though, in that he apparently "does this every game". I didn't know this. Obviously, if I find somebody scummier I'll change my vote. It hasn't happened yet; you could be a possibility, except that it would only be through association to c_d anyway, and therefore I see no point in moving from one to the other... yet

If you read, coron posted that piece of information quite a while ago.

[chaotic_diablo]

My bad. Contrary to your belief, I do in fact read, but I may well have conflated Coron's "c_d does this every game" with the "Max does this every game" posted by raj. I am not sure what significance this has, however, other than to attempt to make me look bad.

I have moved on, c_d. You will notice that I am no longer voting for you. Could you explain to me why you choose to focus on me?

I'm simply giving Coron the credit he deserves.
Anyway, it's better to actually get the facts straight before jumping to conclusions. As a side note, Raj pointed out that Max has been only doing it for 3 games in a row.

If I see something I disagree, it's better to state my opinion. Aside from that, you did call me an idiot and brought up several incriminating points. Even if your not voting for me, it looks more like your setting the stage for future confrontation against me, or your just trying to make me look bad.

What nonsense. Yes, you "know what you're doing" - if you're town you're voting for a player you know to be pro-town! As town, how is doing this more justifiable than voting for somebody else, who at least has a chance of being mafia?

It's how you interpret logic. People who are more willing to throw votes away for 'chance' are less likely to catch them compared to someone who knows who scum is. While I may not know who scum is, I'm not willing to throw my vote away just to gamble.

I have made no assumptions, premature or otherwise. I have stated that if you are pro-town, your behaviour is anti-town. Except for a very few, extremely rare cases, voting for a player you know to be pro-town is anti-town.

You already made one assumption. You assumed that because I voted for a protown player, I will follow the exact same behavior throughout the game. I know you didn't exactly say this, but your arguments point to it like crazy.

I have neither tried to deduce your motives, judgments, nor opinions. I have simply stated that it is a ridiculous thing to do, either as town or scum. You are trying to make it look as though I am drawing conclusions about you from this behaviour, where I have tried to do no such thing. Please desist.

If you vote to kill, the you must have drawn some sort of conclusion at one point or another. I'm pretty sure you had a good reason to vote me.

[chaotic_diablo]

I've actually read both Mackay's and TB's posts and both have brought up some inconsistencies in the other. What troubles me most are the people who bandwagon TB and are not reading any of his posts and are instead, taking the side of the person who they support, assuming that he's made a good argument. IMO, the bystanders are just looking for a way to end day one as quickly as they can.

unvote

[chaotic_diablo]

The post is mostly directed to Raj. However, I feel that there are others who also fulfill the requirements to an extent.

i have read it and every thing mackay has pointed out is how i feel. there is no reason for me to copy everything shes done and force everyone to read another 2 page summary of TB's posts.

Have you even read TB's post?

Your life is on the line.

How so?

[chaotic_diablo]

Have you even read TB's post?

i just said i did.

Saying and doing are two different words. I highly doubt you did the 'doing' part.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH IM SCUM BLAH BLAH BLAH, im going to vote for myself because im cool, BLAH BLAH BLAH, now im voting for mackay

please die.

You obviously didn't get the point of that post. I don't get how you can 'agree' with Mackay's arguments against a point if you don't even understand what she's refuting.

[chaotic_diablo]

How so?

Because your craptacular answers will get you vigged/lynched. I swear if I wasn't so sure TB hadn't made some major slip up I would vote for you forty times over now. If I could lynch two people at once you would be the other. plzdiekthxbai

My life is on the line because you hate how I talk? BS.

The post is mostly directed to Raj. However, I feel that there are others who also fulfill the requirements to an extent.

Like who? Or are you going to continue to vaguely throw out accusations without substance?

I'd like you to get to the point.

[chaotic_diablo]

I asked you whom those were. You evaded the question. I suspect there aren't any others who fulfill that requirement, and you are throwing out baseless accusations to intimidate people off the bandwagon. This is hugely, hugely scummy.

There are others who fulfill the requirement. However, you should note that they do not fulfill it to its maximum. The reason why I don't want to reveal them is because they fill it so minimally, that it isn't worth telling. For instance, you are rushing the lynch with your refusal to read long posts with the inclusion of a weak argument against TB.

As far as intimidating people off the bandwagon, that isn't the goal. Mackay has brought up several good points against TB and revealed a contradiction. However, people seem to be rushing far too quickly on the bandwagon without really thinking. I don't mind intimidating people off a bandwagon if it includes revealing that they have a weak opinion. Obviously that means they are not on there for the reasons you might believe in. Unless they think a bit, then jump on the bandwagon, I don't want to rush a lynch.

[chaotic_diablo]

Sorry to hear about the bad news. I'm not that great at comforting people, so all I can say is that I've had a friend who's had a similiar experience, and it isn't a good thing to go through.

[chaotic_diablo]

vote tb

I highly doubt that he's scum, but I don't think we'll get anywhere soon if we wait for a replacement.

[chaotic_diablo]

Vote: chaotic_diablo

.

My first theory was wrong, so what "cleared" c_d in my mind is now gone.

Elaborate.

I got the impression that I would be vigged during the night after such a bad play yesterday...

IMO, the kill could have been Sk or vig, or scum if they're insane.

[chaotic_diablo]

I thought TB was scum and said something that implied he knew you to be town. I was wrong in that regard. I'm very, very happy returning to this vote.

I'm not seeing how the broken theory can prove that I'm scum. I'm guessing you have more support for your vote? Out with it.

[chaotic_diablo]

I got the prod. I've been paying more attention to my other games that I've nearly forgotten what has transpired in this one.

Aside from that, I'm seeing people who claim they'll look into the CD thing, but obviously I don't think they will. This comes from the fact that Thesp has switched targets, making someone else a higher priority.

Not much on wintergreen aside from what primate has already said. Can't really add anything to the issue.

There hasn't been alot of support on any of the bandwagons so far. At the most, people are spamming uselessness. I can't really see how we'll get anything done.

[chaotic_diablo]

Why did you hammer him? We at least could have checked his role to see if it was

worth

lynching him.
Those last two votes went by too fast.

[chaotic_diablo]

I think the mod is trying to mess with us. 3 cops killed in a row is highly unlikely, even if they have different sanities. I'm thinking there are probably more cops around, though I'm not sure.

[chaotic_diablo]

The chances of being two mafia groups is pretty likely according to the theme. However, that's only when I scanned it on wikipedia.

I don't see max as a confirmed vig with possibly a mason partner. I see it more likely as a scum trying to pass over for a mason team with a killing ability. In other words, another killing group.

[qote="primate"]I genuinely don't know what to say to you two. You're not even playing the game. Max, do you remember that time you left me uncounterclaimed as a doc in an open set-up over on wifom, and every townie in the game hated you for it, and then you've never been taken seriously as a player on that site again? Don't let it happen again here. [/quote] I don't like this paragraph. Is this a threat or some sort of blackmail?

[chaotic_diablo]

I'm trying to encourage him not be stupid about this whole deal. I'm trying to point out the benefits of playing using your brain. So far, his one action today has been to place a vote on me for looking too townie, and then his mason partner has followed completely blindly, handing the mafia an 'oops, I win' situation. To put it bluntly, I don't see how I can take him seriously as a player until he stops doing stuff like this. Look at yesterday, in which he hammahed a townie, again, whilst using no reason whatsoever. It just really rankles me.

I don't know, but it looks like your mistaking scummy for stupid. Hammering a townie, vigging a cop, claiming an unbalanced mason pair, drawing straws...

[chaotic_diablo]

I don't know, but it looks like your mistaking stupid for scummy.

Fixed in a certain sense. Point is that I think your unintentionally covering up a scummy act by taking it for stupid.

[chaotic_diablo]

Her's an Idea I kill either Blumonick Or Primate The mafia stay away from them if either of them die It's proven my innocence

Why only them? Why not include everyone else?
I also don't see why scum would stay away from them anyway. If it would prove you scum to interfere, scum would definitely interefere.

It sounds to me that Max may have inside information. Suggesting this idea almost seems like he knows scum will not interevene. That or he's not using his brain, as primate suggested.

[chaotic_diablo]

Ok, Im claiming Cop.

Here's what I know:
Thsp was innocent(til he was killed)
Primate is Innocent.
I am Innoncent.

So that Leaves Max, chaotic_diablo, conner. 2 of them are in the Mafia Group. I say if there is a doctor in the game and that is Primate, we got it rapped up. We lynch either one of Max, Chaotic_diablo, Conner. The Doc saves me which their might or might not be one in this game, probably is, I go in for another Investgation and I know who the final Scum is.

I know Im taking a huge risk revealing this Information, but with two cops dead already. I thought it was the only way to guaranteed a Town Win.

We actually have three dead cops. Raj, Thesp, and MC. Like I said, we could have more cops. This means the information is highly unreliable since having 4 cops in the same game is pretty unbalanced. In addition, having 4 exceeds the sanity count of 3: insane, naive, and normal.

You also missed coron.

[chaotic_diablo]

I really am a Cop in this game, I dont know why you wouldnt belive me, it sounds sorta fishy that you dont, maybe even scummy.

I didn't say I didn't believe you, I said that the information you have is most likely

unreliable

. We have three cops who dropped dead without explanation and now we have a fourth ready to come out with gamebreaking results.
In addition, cops with sanity problems are not informed of it, therefore it is impossible for you to know yourself if the information you have is right. I'm not saying that you have questionable sanity, I'm saying that you were probably not informed of your own limitations to your investigations.

I'd like to get back on max. It seems like he's turning silence into a survival strategy.

[chaotic_diablo]

the sanity count is exactly 4: Paranoid, sane, insane, and naive.

*shakes head*

c_d you should know better.

Thanks for the correction. Makes more sense now. I haven't been in many games with cop limitations. That either means bluemonick is naive or sane. His results are now believable.

[chaotic_diablo]

Sorry for the double post, but it's not 4, it's 5. Paranoid, naive, insane, sane, and random.

http://www.mafiascum.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Cop

[chaotic_diablo]

I request a prodding for everyone except me.

[chaotic_diablo]

That about covers the 5 variations of cops: naive, paranoid, insane, sane, and random.

And, seriously I really am the Cop as stated in my last post, so we should work from there with those facts.

No ones doubting you, no need to emphasize it.

[chaotic_diablo]

If Max and connor are the second mafia, would that imply that the other scum group would also be a two member scum group? If that's the case, Max and connor would win if we manage to lynch ibaesha's partner. In addition, townies are usually put into the game in bundles of three. Since we have two dead townies, we should have another. This brings me to: 4 scum, 5 cops, 3 townies.

[chaotic_diablo]

Wow, this is easy. No claim from mafia. Hence max and connor are likely innocent. SCORE!

vote Chaotic_Diablo

Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum.

There are plenty of flaws in that reasoning.

What is Max trying to do?

[chaotic_diablo]

I'm the doc. I protected coron night one, then Thesp night two. Sadly, the kill still went through for inexplicable reasons that I cannot comprehend. I'm not aware of any limitations to my choices.

[chaotic_diablo]

I think I'll hold my vote until we get a response from the other three.

[chaotic_diablo]

One word: Why?

Do as you see fit, I still want to know why though.

This isn't a trap or anything.

It's been a while since I've claimed. I'm interested in what they have to say.

[chaotic_diablo]

One word: Why?

Do as you see fit, I still want to know why though.

This isn't a trap or anything.

It's been a while since I've claimed. I'm interested in what they have to say.

I'm skeptical. As in, I point blank don't believe you. Do you have any flavour to go along with your role?

Also, how do you explain this,

In addition, townies are usually put into the game in bundles of three. Since we have two dead townies, we should have another. This brings me to: 4 scum, 5 cops, 3 townies.

A post in which, *at what could be lylo* you very heavily hinted vanillia.

The Thesp thing seems just fluff in order to make your story more believable.

To tell the truth, I was trying to pass on as a townie. However, by the time I realized that I had to claim, claiming townie would just be suicidal. Claiming townie would have given me a choice that might have stopped a lylo situation by a small margin. However, that would only occur if I'm alive.

[chaotic_diablo]

Bluff my arse. The one I protected still ended up dead. I'm beginning to think that something is up with my role or the scum kills.

It wasn't a lyol yesterday as we thought, or am I getting my games messed up? Most of them are at lyol.

[chaotic_diablo]

Primate, if you believed that I bluffed, then why didn't you wait until I actually revealed who I protected first instead of yelling bluff? Although I'm quite sure that you would still believe it's a bluff, it's pretty much a vain act if you can't prove the credibility.

Let's hear from Max.

[chaotic_diablo]

IMO, you should at least wait until everyone has posted.

[chaotic_diablo]

Actually, shouldn't the game be over, zu_fowl?

What are you talking about?

[chaotic_diablo]

This is day is pactically one-sided in favor of the masonry. When you suggested to zu_faul that the game should be over, I interpreted as scum trying to tell zu_faul that there is no way you could lose.

Still, something is strange. Even if you were a scum group with max, you would have won the game. However, it goes the same way if I were with Primate. In addition, don't you think the game would be highly unbalanced with only two scum members and 2/5 useful cops? There has to be some kind of twist.

[chaotic_diablo]

Primate, unless something really weird is going on, the game

is

over.

Why don't you go ahead and hammah C_D?

If the game

is

over, then why

are

we still here?

[chaotic_diablo]

I swore I sent in a choice to kill rathyr Night 3. In fact, what's Masterchief doing there?

[chaotic_diablo]

I remember sending the pm, o well, game over.

Good game, though I have to say that scum is slightly disadvantaged with this set-up.

[chaotic_diablo]

Not really. Being scum in this game didn't seem very advantageous to me, whether because I played horribly, or because of the events that happened.

A miller group with a bunch of naive cops is a pretty bad combination.