Mini 362 - Open Role Bastard Mafia (Game Over)

[Thesp]

Hey everyone! I'll read through soon and tell you who the scum are by tomorrow.

[Thesp]

I'm out of town, so my scum-hunting is slowed down considerably. I do promise I will catch up, and I haven't forgotten about you all.

[Thesp]

Alright. I've finally done my readthrough, my sincerest apologies for my absence. Now, for the good stuff.

M4yhem, Nai, and ShadowLurker are scum. I could vote for any of them interchangeably.

help im a bug/spectrumvoid should not be lynched today. That's silly. If he is scum, it's only because M4yhem is scum with him, but I think M4yhem is scum without him.

M4yhem shows classic scum-self-destruct tendencies, Nai's posting has been way way way off, beyond terrible, and horribly scummy to me, and ShadowLurker gives off too many minor tells for me not to put him in that group as well.

Vote: M4yhem.

I will vote anyone else on my list to get their lynch, but I see a M4yhem lynch as providing the most information.

[Thesp]

M4yhem shows classic scum-self-destruct tendencies...

With no evidence against any of us? That's either very bad play, or you as scum trying to lead the town astray.

Genius. I've been trying to get help lynched for most of the day. Of course I'm not scum with him, now her. I’m not scum with anyone.

Explain what that means, please, Thesp because right now it is meaningless to me.

Basically, your accusation at the moment has no basis in anything at all. Do you expect me to defend myself? Cause if you do, you really need to make a case against me first.
Vote:Thesp for peddling pointless, baseless accusations as fact. Random voting is over, Thesp. Still, at least the game is interesting now.[/quote]
Awesome. Your post amounts to "RAWR, RAWR, OMGUS he's scary vote him".

And why in the world would we still be random voting ON PAGE 12?

Very, very happy with my vote.

I'd ask how you could be any more vague, but I know it's possible, so I'll ask you, Thesp, to say how my posting has been way off.

Your ill-thought "how to handle counterclaims" post is disturbing, I was concerned with your half-hearted "no lynch is bad" post, I'm almost always certain that role speculation is NOT good for the town, and I'm conerned with how you attacked HIAB. I'm uncomfortable with how you linked HIAB and TheMan. You've posted nothing but "safe" posts this game. There's so much that makes me uncomfortable I can't help but think something's not right with you this game.

Also, finding buddies is usually disastrous without anyone of them being confirmed scum yet. I seem to remember reading a game for another game which you did this, voted one of the people on your list and that person ended up being lynched which lost the game while the other WAS scum.

I disagree. I am not sure which game you are referring to. I was in a C9 setup where I had two people pegged as scum, and was 100% right about one and 100% wrong on the other, but it was I that got lynched and the town lost. My favorite example is College Mafia, though, where I started looking at potential links on D1 of a 20+ person game, and correctly linked a mafia member with his godfather. Simply because linking players isn't always 100% accurate does not mean it's not useful, and it certainly doesn't mean it's detrimental. I'd be happy to get into a linking discussion (as I think it's indeed a better way of finding scum), but right now I'll settle for most likely being correct.

[Thesp]

Sorry for the bad quoting on the previous post, everything before "Awesome" is a quote from M4yhem.

[Thesp]

Thesp, you gave Nai reasons to actually answer and say his motives, but why did you not do the same for me?

I didn't think it was worth it right now. I may wail on you later. 8)

[Thesp]

Sorry for double postage.

... You've got to be kidding me. You're saying that role speculation in a game where all roles are known is a bad thing? A game where we have an in game event that no one understands, and speculation is bad, right?

Usually people give their roles away during speculation.

I don't have as much of a problem with the fact that you voted HIAB, I am concerned with the manner you attacked him. I also find your unusual "OMGUS vote you even though I doubt you're scum I'd rather vote for people who do things I don't like rather than help the town find scum" to be more than interesting.

[Thesp]

Oh, I'd like to get rid of stupid town, which is likely to try to get rid of GOOD town, as much as I'd like to get rid of scum. It'll help the town just as much to stop someone from making stupid accusations and starting bandwagons on town as it will to get rid of scum.

The only reason, at this point, that I DO NOT think you are scum is that I don't think any scum would play this badly.

Can we get back to lynching M4yhem please? Your distraction from this bandwagon is noted.

[Thesp]

Passing it off ?

Unvote, Vote Kirbyphreak

More M4yhem defense!

M4yhem: I'm starting to see a bit of that self destructive scum when you defend yourself. You are throwing suspicions at EVERYONE. First Thesp is scum, then the follower bandwagoneers are scum, earlier in the game other people were scum, now chamber is scum. It's not like chamber suddenly started acting differently. (except for the actual posting)

This is fits the pattern perfectly of in-thread communication to a fellow scum member.

THIS POST SHOULD SET UP HUGE RED FLAGS FOR PEOPLE.

"The town always wants more information, the scum want to give the town as little information as possible."

Why would you hide your reasonings? What would motivate you to do that? What's the point of hiding your reasons for voting? There's no reason for it. Everyone benefits if you give your reasons, no one does if you just vote without reason.

I'm not convinced this is accurate. I think scum want the town to have the

wrong

information, not as little as possible. Scum wat a

misinformed

lynch, not a random one. Also, please see below.

That is one heck of a strange post from Twomz, and I do not like it at all.

QFT.

FOS: Twomz.

Granted, I still think ShadowLurker should be lynched, but this particular approach is very odd.

Then you need to play better.

How is that helpful? I'd like to redress this issue at the end of the game, there's plenty of mafia theory worth going over post-game.

And I seriously think that Thesp is scum at this point. He's not playing like town.

What

is

"playing like town"? Part of my mafia theory is looking at how town are more likely to act compared to how mafia are more lifely to act. Many things people say and do don't fit in either category, but some do. There's not a single way to "play like town", but there certainly are things town (or conversely scum) are more likely to do.

It's not uncommon, particularly when I'm a replacement, to come out guns blazing, sometimes inexplicably. It gets reactions and moves things. Someone made a comment this game as to how we should be careful because it's only been 12 pages at the time and Day 1. That's ridiculous. Scum need to die. (It's not inherently beneficial that long games are better for town, sometimes it gives scum who have slipped up the chance to regroup and confuse the town.) Things need to shake up, and I got awesome reactions. I'm happy with what's gone, and I'm very sold on M4yhem being scum, he confirmed my suspicions, even if I didn't articulate them to everyone immediately. He's been overly defensive and reacting in ways I would not expect town to do. We can go deeper into post-by-post analysis, and I'd be happy to bog everyone down in it if they think it'd be helpful, but I don't think it would be (I suspect it will go something like "I think you were trying to do this when you posted"/"No I wasn't").

Now can we get back to lynching M4yhem? Seriously, he's scum with ShadowLurker. Thanks.

[Thesp]

Passing it off ?

Unvote, Vote Kirbyphreak

More M4yhem defense!

Nice misrepresentation by quoting that post out of context.

When you put it in context, you are deflecting a potential bandwagon for M4yhem by attacking people that may consider getting on it. That's a subtle, devious defense if done by scum. You already know whether or not I think you fit into that category.

M4yhem: I'm starting to see a bit of that self destructive scum when you defend yourself. You are throwing suspicions at EVERYONE. First Thesp is scum, then the follower bandwagoneers are scum, earlier in the game other people were scum, now chamber is scum. It's not like chamber suddenly started acting differently. (except for the actual posting)

This is fits the pattern perfectly of in-thread communication to a fellow scum member.

THIS POST SHOULD SET UP HUGE RED FLAGS FOR PEOPLE.

Maybe becasue it was communication to a townie who's asked in many past posts what you meant by "self-destructing scum." Instead of explaining, you chose to ignore him and still did with that post, I decided to try to answer for you with what I think I meant so he could provide a defense and explain his motives. I don't see how learning motives of somebody is suspicious at all. It helps the whole town make better judgments.

How do you know if he's a townie?

Here's the thing: you're trying to give him an out to rationalize his motives. I think his motives are

already

clear. You are trying to set the stage for him, indicating to him what a better, safer response would be. This does not look like you are trying to find out what he's thinking,

you are trying to feed him what to tell us he's thinking

. This is big time scumalicious, and I've seen scum exhibit this behavior before.

[Thesp]

What do I think is Scummy/Townie behavior?

I'm not sure your list is consistent with how scum and town actually act. If you have seen this in the past, then so be it, but it's not consistent with my past experience of how scum and townies tend to act.

[Thesp]

Okay.

[Thesp]

Unvote: m4yhem, Vote: ShadowLurker.

I still think m4yhem is scum, but he's a terrible lynch for today.

Also, I think everyone posting their scum tells is a bad idea, as it tells the scum how not to act so they can avoid getting voted.

[Thesp]

Once again, instead of answering points brought against you, or your attack, you choose to do something else.

I'm sorry, what points are you referring to? If you're referring to your previous post, the extent of what you're saying is, "That's not what I was doing". I think it's clear that regardless of what your intent was, the effect

did in fact communicate

to M4yhem what a more acceptable response would have been. What you and I are arguing over is whether or not you had pro-town motives for doing so. I don't think you did. You claim you did. I'm not sure what else you're looking for me to say.

I'm very, very happy with my vote on Shadowlurker.

[Thesp]

Because even if he isn't cop, he's not making it to the endgame, and we can try to get information out of him in the meanwhile.

[Thesp]

I'm sorry, what points are you referring to? If you're referring to your previous post, the extent of what you're saying is, "That's not what I was doing". I think it's clear that regardless of what your intent was, the effect did in fact communicate to M4yhem what a more acceptable response would have been. What you and I are arguing over is whether or not you had pro-town motives for doing so. I don't think you did. You claim you did. I'm not sure what else you're looking for me to say.

You still have not explained HOW anything in my post was communicating anything. I was merely explaining the case against him. If you read the post, that's what you will see.

That's the thing. Let's take a look at the post I'm really concerned with:

M4yhem: I'm starting to see a bit of that self destructive scum when you defend yourself. You are throwing suspicions at EVERYONE. First Thesp is scum, then the follower bandwagoneers are scum, earlier in the game other people were scum, now chamber is scum. It's not like chamber suddenly started acting differently. (except for the actual posting)

Suppose for a moment, you are somehow partnered with M4yhem (either mason or scum), as I believe you are. When you make a post like this one, it signals to M4yhem that maybe the people who are posting about the "self-destructing scum" are onto something, and you are pointing out what part of his activity (namely his suspicion throwing onto multiple people seemingly eedlessly) appears to look like "self-destructing scum". Notice, you don't say you're suspicious of him or anything like that, in fact, I'm not sure what this post would do in any case. You've said you're trying to help a townie explai themselves better, when in fact if he's not townie this tells him exactly how to act so as to appear to be townie. I know if I was scum, and you'd addressed a similar post like this to me, I'd reassess how I was acting and try a different approach. Interestingly enough, this is what happened.

Is this clear enough? I apologize to everyone else who had to read all this, even though they were able to see it.

Still very happy with my ShadowLurker vote, I encourage people to move over here in case M4yhem isn't lynched yet (I haven't counted), ShadowLurker is a

much

better lynch today.

[Thesp]

By my counts, m4yhem is at 5 votes. He was at 6 before I unvoted. It's 7 to lynch.

[Thesp]

Thesp, I agree that SL and Mayhem are looking like a pair of scum, but could you explain why you think SL is a better lynch today? Is it the possibility of taking out a more powerful scumrole?

It's because if M4yhem is town, we can gain information from him as long as he's alive, and the scum have to ponder using their kill on him. If he's actually scum, we'll figure that out in due time and lynch him before the endgame.

[Thesp]

Sorry for double-postage, I meant to address one or two more things.

Anyway, Thesp is totally acting like overaggresive scum. I don't need to provide any evidence for that statement.

I strongly encourage you to read some of my other games.

It's a bit depressing that our cop has been outted so soon.

How do you know he's "our cop"? I thought that fact was uncertain to those in the uniformed majority.

BIG FOS: Nai.

If M4yhem is indeed cop, I think this is a major slip by Nai indicating he's scum.

[Thesp]

Ok. Now put yourselves in my shoes.

You see someone else get accused along with yourself. There is very little actual grounds for accusation against you or him, just a general gist of what they find suspicious. You see posts from him asking to explain himself and you do the same. They choose to ignore that fact.

So what did I do? I said this probably is what most people find suspicious about you so other people can see his motives. I for one don't find M4yhem that suspicious but the rest of the town does so I'm merely trying to allow him to give a DEFENSE and let other people judge it.

Also, I do not really see a change in behavior in his posts after I said that. He still seems to be acting the same to me. I would like to see what specifically you say has fallen in line with what I have posted?


If I was actually trying to help him, I would've provided a better ALTERNATIVE and not just say the CASE against him.

We can go deeper into post-by-post analysis, and I'd be happy to bog everyone down in it if they think it'd be helpful, but I don't think it would be (I suspect it will go something like "I think you were trying to do this when you posted"/"No I wasn't").

Thesp, 5 hours had passed and there was no counterclaim, and several people had posted since then. I think it's safe to assume that he's the real cop.

A WHOLE 5 HOURS! WOW!

Nai should be lynched/killed before the endgame.

Thesp-No thanks. If this is how you play normally, I'd rather stab someone's eyes out than read your other games. I think you are reaching on Nai and ShadowLurker. You'll forgive me, I'm sure, for not trusting your judgement.

You're welcome to not trust my judgment, but please do look at the points I've raised. You'll also forgive me if I believe your argument which suggests I'm more likely to be scummy because I'm aggressive is dubious, too.

[Thesp]

I think I've played with Thesp before. But Thesp is now using the same argument as chamber, aka the 'well, this is my normal playstyle therefore it's not scummy' argument. I repeat: whether or not it's your normal playstyle doesn't reflect your alignment in the game.

I agree 100%. I don't think my aggressiveness indicates whether I'm town or scum.

And when did I suggest we can afford to lose people?

[Thesp]

Unvote: ShadowLurker, Vote: M4yhem.

Sounds like a scum condition to me.

[Thesp]

Fritzler-Thanks.

Here's my real roleclaim. I'm the mathematics professor. At the start of the day Pariah told me I had to get the cop or doc to claim, and then get the whole town to vote no lynch. If I do this something happens. I'm guessing it's good for the town because otherwise the game would be unbalanced. If I don't manage to do this, I get fired, which is probably bad for me.

All you have to do to test my claim is unvote, vote:no lynch

Lynch All Liars. Seriously. This day doesn't need to continue. It seems even more likely that the conditions he stated do something beneficial for the scum than for the town.

[Thesp]

You flip flopped with SL in scumminess, but can we have a vote count? Can the town agree that mayhem's a good lynch for today?

Yes.

FOS: Bogre.

The quoted statement is scummy for two reasons. (

Maybe

three, but a bona fide two.) Bonus points to the first person to point them out.

[Thesp]

I'm guessing this is twilight or will be pretty soon.

Oh and Thesp, do I win cookies if..
1. Vote Count, still needs to look at votes before making a decision?
2. Asking if the town agrees, read the posts and look at who's voting.
(3) "the town"

Very good! Actually, (1) is the one I think might be a tell (stall tactic, perhaps), whereas (2) and (3) are definitely tells. He's looking for the town's approval before acting, and referring to the town in 3rd person here is very unusual. (Sometimes it fits, but it sticks out here to me.)

Bonus cookies for you!

[Thesp]

RAWR!

Vote: ShadowLurker.

OBV OBV OBV

This day doesn't have to last very long.

[Thesp]

I can't imagine why M4yhem and Nai didn't think you were suspicious. :rolleyes:

Well, I'll probably be lynched today, because I'm scum. I'm scum scum scummity scum. I can't wait for night to fall so I can kill you all in your sleep. I eat babies for breakfast and feast on the blood of the innocent for dessert. It's a shame I gave myself away with my interaction with M4yhem on Day 1, so today can be so incredibly short the town won't give the scum any ideas as to who might be cop or doc.

Also, I fixed what you meant to say.

[Thesp]

If the vig claims, maybe they could get fixed, presuming it's the vig.

I do want to hear from Fritzler, though, I forgot about that.

[Thesp]

2) Fritz could easily be bastardized which could mean he gets opposite results.

It just depends on the timing of things. You're the best vote anyway, the vote just helps cinch it.

[Thesp]

(Should read "the result just cinches it" rather than "the vote just cinches it".)

[Thesp]

Chamber must die.

I am the genealogist. The first night I targetted Fritzler, in hopes of making him sane. His result was flipped for that night still, but the next day he got a "correct" result on his target. I believe Fritzler is sane at this point. The second night I targetted Chamber, so we could make him a true vigilante. His flip obviously didn't work the same night, otherwise I'd be dead instead of the temp-dead I got.

Now, chamber can actually kill people.

I seriously, seriously do not understand why he targetted me to be killed and want a defense from him pronto on this, and more than "I thought he was scumzors, LOL".

I don't think chamber actually tried to kill himself, and/or was not allowed to kill himself, so he chose to kill no one. Of course, it would have been hysterical had he tried to remove himself from the game, only to find himself very dead. But alas, no such luck. My guess is that chamber is a Serial Killer, if we have one, or a member of the mafia (who now might have 2 kills, interestingly enough: I ran a game on MiseTings which our mod was in where the mafia had a tempkiller).

I want the roleblocker to claim today and hear whom all he's targetted. I also want to hear Fritz's investigation.

[Thesp]

I'm here guys.

And?

[Thesp]

Thesp, who else have you bastardized?

That's all. Are you the roleblocker?

[Thesp]

Roleblocker? Hello?

[Thesp]

Roleblocker, please.

[Thesp]

So now we have no roleblocker in the game apparently. Hmm.....

Im the restrictor. I thought someones role was roleblocker. I thought i didnt RB, but maybe i do. I choose dumb things, like "player cant vote for someone with more than 2 voyes" was my choice last night.

More specifics, please. Each night. Claim.

[Thesp]

chamber still has not given an acceptable answer to why he vigged me. Seriously, I was practically the most likely to be not-mafia after Day 2, pegging M4yhem and ShadowLurker. He's ignored the question as to why he vigged me, and I think he's likely a serial killer or mafia. I don't think him being alive another day is good.

Vote: chamber.

Also, no one should think kirbyphreak should get a free pass for

restricting the claimed cop role.

He's next. The only thing that troubles me is that we don't have a claimed roleblocker yet. My guess is that themanhimself was a pseudo-roleblocker, or at least served that purpose.

[Thesp]

RAWR!

Rout. Wow. Fun fun fun.

[Thesp]

I'd be up for playing this one again. I like the open role aspect whilst some things are still hidden.