Mini 456: Ultimatum Mafia - Game Over!

[Albert B. Rampage]

I finished reading the thread, and I find mneme

highly

suspicious. I don't like Fonz much either. I'd rather expose my reasons after today's challenge, if you don't mind.

For now, I would disagree with lynching BM based on principle, because I don't think it will discourage other players to do the same thing. The "BM did it too, and he was townie!" argument will inevitably come up. And if you just want to do it to teach BM a lesson, well...I think no matter how many times you punish BM, he will just pop back up and keep doing this sort of stupidity. And he's usually town -_-

In all seriousness, his posts seem pro-town until the point he issued the challenge. He looks more like a tori sure of himself than con or lib. I'll make a re-read concentrating on VanDamien, but so far I'm leaning on a vote for BM.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'd prefer you exposed them now, actually, before we see BM's alignment.

If you don't mind...

I do mind, mind you. I'm not going to distract the town when we are under deadline. I will challenge you tomorrow, and then I'll kill you.

It will certainly discourage BM from doing the same thing this game.

Is this a joke ? He's not going to be in the game if we do that, genius.

[quote ="Albert B. Rampage"]
And he's usually town -_-

No more than anyone else...[/quote]

Um, that was a joke, indicated by the -_- and the "in all seriousness" in the next sentence.

Tori=conservative.

I meant independent political party. Given the context, I am glad even you "got" it.

Anyway,

vote: BM

[Albert B. Rampage]

Do we kill VD as soon as possible or do we wait until the endgame ?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm still very suspicious of VD's claim. I've successfully used that tactic in the past, passing myself for the "lesser evil" and almost winning the game. I would just rather we kill the confirmed scum instead of the anti-town townie.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Stoofer:

Do we kill VD as soon as possible or do we wait until the endgame ?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yeah that's reasonable...

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'd prefer you exposed them now, actually, before we see BM's alignment.

If you don't mind...

I do mind, mind you. I'm not going to distract the town when we are under deadline. I will challenge you tomorrow, and then I'll kill you.

Well, now the voting is essentially done, so I'd also like to hear your reasons before BM's alignment is revealed. I suggest yos and dean give him time to answer.

I will challenge mneme as soon as I can, once all the town decides it is time.

[Albert B. Rampage]

And yes, what Stewie said. There's no way to "confuse the town" at this point, because the mechanical result is already pre-deterimined.

Albert, the only reason to delay saying your peace at this point is so you can change it to fit the facts, which doesn't really help your case.

Fit what facts ?

I declared that I found you scummy, and I use that declaration as basis to go against whatever you want to do in the future. I feel no need to outline the voluminous case against you until your time comes.

(that, and national festivities holding me up this weekend)

[Albert B. Rampage]

I want to gather momentum. I don't think its possible to change my case to "fit the facts", and actually don't understand much of this comment at all.

[Albert B. Rampage]

nominate: mneme!

[Albert B. Rampage]

Don't worry it has nothing to do with BM. Also, I'm writing it now. And I'm intoxicated because this weekend is the national celebration. But I'm writing it. Now.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The biggest scumtell I got on mneme is this post:

Sparks: your last post had some actual content and went halfway toward making sense. congrats. Please stop acting offensive, using homosexual as an insult, etc -- there's no purpose to it and it ticks people off.

If you want to challenge me, come get some. I won't have to read to your drivel for the rest of the game, so even if you beat the odds, it's all good.
/quote]

The timing of this post is extremely scummy. He is taunting sparks to challenge him while sparks is already on the chopping block. Like he himself said(I lost the quote), mafia will try to keep their head low and avoid attention. This fits exactly his reason to try to make sparks challenge him.

Come to think of it, Dean's big scumtell is still around (ie, "no, we must not call the scum scum -- we must call them a 'group of three'" , and if dylan checks out as a tory, there's a case to be made that the stuff that lead to dylan's lying was him busing Dean and then getting caught at it.

unnom: BM
nom: Dean

The reason he gives is really weak imo, and he just seems to be bandwagonning. In fact, mneme is consistently always attacking the most popular lynch of the day: sparks(this one was so easy its ridiculous), dylan, BM, DeanWinchester. He always goes against the weakest players, its unbelievable. Trying to convince the town with the "see I act like you so I'm town like you" trick. He keeps blending in like this, over and over again.

I also hate the way mneme is buddying up with Yosarian(he agrees WAY too much with Yos, constantly saying "agreed", "Yos' analysis is a good one", "indeed", etc.), Stoofer(since the very beginning of the game) and stewie as in here:

1. VD is scum. (probably liberal, but concievably con running a gambit)
2. mneme, yos, stoofer, and stewie are probably not scum if dylan are. Probably.
3. mneme is probably not scum if BM or dean are. Probably.

This post poses a big wtf in my head.

And he keeps derailing conversation to discussions about Ad Hominem and
his "nomination" system which doesn't amount to any content that can help us busting his buddies, while appearing townish enough because of his lengthly posts.

This is why I flag mneme as a conservative party politician.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Mod: can you add a [ to my /quote] ?

I also have a case on Fonz, but I won't be posting it right now.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Going after the easiest targets isn't townie. It's bandwagonning.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm okay with a Dylan lynch today; he had several holes in his logic and I don't like his accusations. The timing of his absence might be one last bid for survival. There's just a nagging feeling about mneme tough, I can't quite put my finger on it. I agree that we should let Dylab pick whoever he wants; this could prove useful if and when he turns out to be scum.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The obvious choice..

vote Stewie

.

I still think it might be possible Dylan is scum with mneme tough...maybe.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I've already DID, but most of it is just by analyzing his play comparing patterns in scum behavior.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I still think it might be possible Dylan is scum with mneme tough...maybe.

*giggle*. That would require a really big bus. Maybe a fleet.

I've been anti-dylan all three days, nom'd him all three days, and voted to kill him on two of them (I didn't have an opportunity on day 2). I could (looking as a third party observer, which I'm not) see any of the experienced player sitting in the center of this game as possible scum, incluidng yours truly -- but this one's pretty hard to credit.

I guess your right...

[Albert B. Rampage]

dylan, what do you think about memne ?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think either memne or Yosarian is conserv with S & S

ciao everyone!

Very helpful...

[Albert B. Rampage]

4-3-1..?

It all depends on how much you trust VD's ability to catch scum and his motivation to help the town.

[Albert B. Rampage]

If we don't lynch VanDamien, we have 2 shots at finding conservative. If we do lynch VanDamien we have 1 shot of finding conservative. The question is should we trust his judgment ?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm still for attacking mneme. Even tough he has went after Dylan all game, its highly probable he was doing so as scum, going after townie.

Nominate

mneme...man, I know he's scum, I just KNOW IT.

[Albert B. Rampage]

@Yosarian: Its a very strong hunch, I cannot explain it too well but I will try to come up with something better.

Dean: huh?

Albert: who do you suspect as scum aside from me? What's your ideal 3-person/1 person pairing?

Actually, that's a fairly good question for everyone. I'll see if I can come up with an answer myself.

You and Dean sound like decent candidates for being conservative, I would also throw in either Stoofer or Fonz in there, from a brief recollection of the game.

VanDamien for liberal because it doesn't make sense for him to claim like that I think.

[Albert B. Rampage]

1) Stoofer and Yosarian are probably not scum together.

2) Stewie and Fonz accuse me, so I'm probably not scum with them

3) mneme is town from his perspective

Therefore, disregarding Dean and VD, I am probably town.

Fonz might be scum with Stewie.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think I'm going to stay away from the heavyweights...

[Albert B. Rampage]

In that case, wouldn't I challenge VD ?

[Albert B. Rampage]

(I don't think I will challenge VD. Probably Dean...)

[Albert B. Rampage]

That's true. It seems, in games like these, that it is meant for the "hard" players to all meet up in the end and slug it out, weeding the "easy" players on the way. In that case I'm a dead man to begin with. My best bet would be to attack one of the "easy" lynches, and hope that the "hard" lynches challenge each other tomorrow. In that case, if both Dean and me are innocent, the town has already lost.

I can't challenge mneme because he's gone, so he wouldn't be able to defend himself and provide us leads when he's gone.

The only possible challengees are Dean and VD. Since we are out to kill conservative, and I think VD is liberal, I have to against Dean.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Let me put it this way: mneme is more likely scum than Dean. But mneme is absent so I don't want to challenge mneme. Dean I find third scummiest after VD and mneme, but since I think VD is liberal, I have to challenge Dean.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Challenge: mneme

[Albert B. Rampage]

Your saying it as if it was a chore

[Albert B. Rampage]

Given his action, the odds of BM being scum are fairly high -- and even if he isn't, the loss in info/day of letting him get away with this substantially outweighs the loss to the town of a mislynch.

I disagree with this post. If BM would have been saved, he wouldn't have repeated this behavior because there are no other 100% surefire scum, which is the sole reason why BM challenged VD.

But...it isn't the way to bet, and while dylan has a point with his "I'm so hated, I must be town" speech

This looks like a weird thing to say before voting for Stewie. Dylan doesn't have a point with his "I'm so hated, I must be town" speech.
If he was scum his team would have thrown him under the bus a long time ago.

That said, I'm very interested in the discussion between Yos and Stoofer -- it's self-evident, but if the newbish players aren't all or most of the conservative mafia (seems likely that they aren't all, at least), some have to be hiding among the "core".

I'm not exactly sure what he's saying here. Is he trying to keep his options open and kill either one of Yos or Stoof should they have challenged eachother today ?

I still think it might be possible Dylan is scum with mneme tough...maybe.

*giggle*. That would require a really big bus. Maybe a fleet.

I've been anti-dylan all three days, nom'd him all three days, and voted to kill him on two of them (I didn't have an opportunity on day 2). I could (looking as a third party observer, which I'm not) see any of the experienced player sitting in the center of this game as possible scum, incluidng yours truly -- but this one's pretty hard to credit.

Again, this looks a lot like trying to confuse the town. I think he's trying to fake a mistake to appear town. Well, he got his Dylan lynch all right.

Hmm. Players left who have an unknown alignment to me: DeanWinchester, Mr Stoofer, Albert B. Rampage (r. SpinWizard), Stewie, The Fonz,Yosarian2

I'm pretty sure VD is Liberal, as he says he is -- for the reasons I've stated earlier.

Let's leave out Dean for the moment -- Stoofer's got a point about "too clueless to be scum" though that doesn't clear him.

That leaves us with three scum among Stoofer, Albert, Stewie, Fonz, and Yosarian.

We've had the following distancing:

Stoofer: Yosarian (both ways),
Albert: none (me, but I'm not on the above list). Also, recieving (as spinwizard), Stewie (also as Albert), Fonz (only once, though, and as a secondary)
Stewie: Albert, Dean, (many, many times for both, oddly)
Fonz: Albert, Dean
Yosarian: Stoofer. Both ways.


This is very interesting. First, it seems to indicate that Albert's probably not scum. (would have to be scum with stoofer and yosarian, assuming !bus, and that one's too unlikely to credit for now).

Second, since yosarian and stoofer are probably not -both- scum, that means that stewie and fonz are scum.

That said, Stewie's play has been very good.

Therefore,

Nom: Fonz

I seldom like these kinds of posts; "x and y can't be scum together because x has been attacking y" is often a scum strategy to influence the town's play. The mafia already know who is attacking who, so its easy for x to attack y, both being scum, knowing that their teammate z would arrive to the conclusion that x isn't scum with y and proclaim this to the town.

Err...that was confusing...I'll try to clarify if you ask me more specific questions. Ever since I replaced I've felt this fake, plastic vibe coming from mneme, I can't explain this hunch too well. It would help if everyone would pitch in and accuse me and mneme to set some ideas straighter in my mind.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Fonz at this point I can only take your accusations as OMGUS.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Fonz at this point I can only take your accusations as OMGUS.

Jesus, you're trying the baseless OMGUS argument AGAIN? I'd actually be less suspicious of you

had you set out a case on me

, rather than saying you had one, then sitting on it. I've made quite clear why I think Stoofer is scum, and you're almost certain to be his scumbuddy. If you have a specific objection to any of the points I've made, make it. Just trying to wave your magic 'It's all OMGUS!' wand didn't work the last time, and it won't this.

Hmm...well I don't particularly remember when I used that argument before. But yeah, I'm not much in a position to attack you anymore now that mneme was just minor political party...

Like I said, I haven't used the "OMGUS!" argument anywhere - in this game at least. I have however, gotten very bad anti-town vibes from you, which I've mentioned in my first post; that's the reason why I think your just going after me because I went after you.

Regarding the Stoofer issue...I think he's innocent, and the scum are probably Dean, Yosarian and yourself, Fonz. I understand I've become a very likely target, and I will take care to build thicker cases in the future.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Regarding the Stoofer issue...I think he's innocent, and the scum are probably Dean, Yosarian and yourself, Fonz. I understand I've become a very likely target, and I will take care to build thicker cases in the future.

:eyebrow:

Could you explain WHY you think I'm scum, Albert?

*shrug*

Possible pairing I guess. Dean was under a lot of heat, but he somehow survived until now; you and Stoofer had your own little argument thing going on, and I believe Stoofer had the upper hand.

[Albert B. Rampage]

^

A hell lot of bullshit right there. Will comment later.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Most of my case against Stoof is in my 539 and 543. The short version:

He's been on every lynch so far. None have been conservative.

You cannot blame Stoofer for a group mistake. If those players died, its because the majority of the town believed they were conservative.

The fact that he made such a song and dance about how Battle Mage had to die for policy reasons, and then decided that he might well be scum when the idea of policy-lynching came under attack.

Once again, a majority of players wanted to lynch BM for policy reasons, including mneme:

If we let BM get away with this insanely anti-town move, we're encouraging people to practice day killing (which is what an early challenge amounts to if it has any chance of working -- doubly so, since it's both killing the day and killing -during- the day). Only scum have an incentive to challenge early, especially in a way that contradicts the town debate. Therefore, anyone who's acted this way has more or less announced scummishness.

I may want to add that I wasn't in on that, and would have had VanDamien killed. And honestly, VanDamien has been more reliable than BM so far, and I would think the mafia wouldn't care whoever is lynched - if VD truly is liberal.

The 'hard lynch' thing. As I said before, it seems like a rationalisation for saving scummy people over townish ones. His conversion also occurred just in time to save Albert and kill off a townie. I don't think this is a coincidence. This bit sums up my thoughts:

My point exactly. I was about to make a post just nominating the two easiest lynches, when I suddenly thought: "this is too easy, there must be scum amongst the players whom I have been regarding, up to now, as pro-Town."

Presumably, you thought they were easy lynches because they looked extremely scummy to you, right? And equally obviously, you must have had some reason to think those four town. 'There must be at least one scum amongst these four' is no argument at all, since one in four is a lower proportion than you'd get by picking on someone at random (3/7), if indeed you are town.

The speed with which he turns on Yos after Yos suggests that Stoof looks scummy, having up to that point found him town. See my 550. I don't know whether it was OMGUS or staged distancing, but either way it looks scummy to me.

I found the hard lynch thing was very logical - not being at LyLo yet, it wouldn't be a bad move to lynch someone who's death would yield a lot of information. We would have an easier time analyzing and making connections to make the right choices when we are actually in Ly-Lo.

The way in which he apparently found Yos' defence of BM scummy, but made no comment at all about Albert doing the same.

I think that's the gist of it.

Because at the time I mostly relied on Yosarian to base my defense of BM on, Stoofer naturally refuted Yosarian's arguments, since I didn't have much to say that Yos didn't already put on the table.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It looks like your distancing yourself a hell lot from Yosarian...maybe your not scum with him. I think a Stewie/Fonz/Dean scum team is highly likely, while Stoofer and Yosarian are likely town...but I'm not 100% sure.

[Albert B. Rampage]

God I am good at formulating weak arguments - and for once, I am proud of doing it purposely.

Vote: The Fonz

Let's wrap this baby up nice and tight

[Albert B. Rampage]

This one was all due to your "pro-towniness" 8)

[Albert B. Rampage]

Oh, your just being humble

Yosarian did a magnificent job too, tough. Haha it must suck to be town right now, watching the mafia giving accolades to each other in plain sight like this.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Jester Rampage = Unstoppable

[Albert B. Rampage]

Goddamit. The Fonz had me fooled. It was a good play to go after stoofer in your part, since he isn't there and albert defending him all the time made him scummier, since I believed fonz was town.

I defended Stoofer

after

Fonz went after him, just to make it clear. All in all, good game.

[Albert B. Rampage]

^

lol overconfidence

Its the first time I've been paired with a team this strong, and I've surprisingly enjoyed this game a lot more than I expected.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Albert B. Rampage for mayor!

[Albert B. Rampage]

First page needs to be edited to have only conservatives alive

Hey what were the reasoning behind some of the rules ? No unvoting, strict randomized deadline, etc.

[Albert B. Rampage]

i agree with Mneme that we definitely need a sequel to this. If only to regain some pride in our townsmanship

LOL