That's the case, the game is nightless. The only kills will be the ones that result from challenges.Carrotcake wrote:Without the random voting, I really don't know how to start. From the roles posted, it does not seem like the mafia can nightkill, they are the same in all abilities as everyone else? That could make things difficult.
Mini 456: Ultimatum Mafia - Game Over!
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I think that, whilst avoiding lurking is indeed desirable, if we don't post with the aim of someone eventually deciding to challenge someone else, we're going to end up with posting for posting's sake. We need the threat of a challenge there to ensure that the discussion isabout something.
So, whilst for individual townies, not challenging, and certainly not until the deadline nears, is quite likely a good policy, handcuffing the town like that is not.-
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I assume the logic here is to penalise vote-hopping? I don't see this as being that useful. I'd still rather just let the nominee challenge whoever they like. I think we learn more from who they nominate out of choice than by directing them.Mr Stoofer wrote:(e)Unless(c)applies, the Challenger will challenge the person who hasmade the fewestsubstantivecontributionsthe most nominations (apart from the Challenger).-
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I still think we're better off letting the challenger challenge who they like. Both town and scum have an incentive to try to challenge scum, and we'll get a more informative debate between two people who suspect one another than between two who may agree broadly, but both have annoyed enough other people to get nommed.-
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This is mildly amusing, considering the thing you're complaining about is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT.Sparks wrote:and i love how were STILL DISCUSSING the semantics of stoofers plan rather than finding lurkers and scum which is what i pointed out in my pst lareayd. but of course everyone ignores the convinient part.
I don't know about anyone else, but I voted him for craplogic, and trying to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything more than truisms.Sparks wrote:oh and you guys just proved u are lyncing me based on semantics. that is such a good reason to lynch someone.
just ilke you all bandwagoned deanwinchester for saying hes town. because mafia are clearly more likely to say theyre town than town.
Their contribution has been essentially minimal. This is bad, but yours has been actively detrimental to the town, which is worse. Plus, you said this:if yos seriously thinks ive been less helpfil than danmonkey, spinwizard, and dylan combined, he is a huge idiot ecuase thats as plain aslike a two year old.
Accusing others of going after inactives/non-contributors, which of course is exactly what you just did.ow by appointin yourself to catch people who arent really contributing you are doing an easily done task and can skate by not really contributing becuz youre just voting people less active than you
Frankly, Sparks, I'm quite glad you look scummy. It gets me off the hook of a moral dilemma- you see, your homophobic and personally abusive comments are making this game much less enjoyable for me, but of course if they were combined with a general appearance of townishness, I'd have to weigh the desire to get rid of you with my duty to my town-mates to search out scum. Fortunately, I don't have to.
Now, a note here: Right now I'm not going to remove my Dean nomination, since he made one craptastic post, and has disappeared since, and I don't want to allow this to become an acceptable tactic to avoid getting nommed. I've already expressed my opposition to double-nominations.
However, with the deadline approaching, I'd be entirely comfortable with seeing sparks forced to challenge too. Consider it a second preference, if we're thinking in a single transferrable vote kinda way.-
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Stewie wrote:
Agreed, but that's not what he said.Challenging a lurker first thing is sooo scummy it's untrue.
ah. I thought he said challenge. He said nominate. My bad.Mr Stoofer wrote: Since my vote is irrevocable, I won't lay it down just yet, but I can't see that I'm likely to do anything other than vote to keep dylan. I've made the point about lurkers (active or otherwise) and I'm going to nominate him first thing Day 2 unless there is a significant improvement between now and then.
Nope, unless you think 'with the deadline nearing' is the same as 'first thing.' This doesn't mean I don't find Sparks scummy btw. But his last handful of posts have been a lot better imho.Mr Stoofer wrote:The I don't understand your post. You said:
Isn't that what Sparks did?Challenging a lurker first thing is sooo scummy it's untrue. You completely curtail nomination debate, yet you've got a good shot at winning just because he isn't likely to defend himself properly.-
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No, we've been over that misunderstanding- he means he will start pushing for Dylan to be forced into a challenge immediately, not that he will personally challenge Dylan.VanDamien wrote:Mr Stoofer wrote:The Fonz makes a valid point. Anyone who makes a challenge straight off the bat - in the first two RL days of a day - should be eliminated. From now on, I will always vote to save anyone challenged in the first two RL days of a day.
Contradict yourself much?Mr Stoofer wrote:I'll then be nominating dylan first thing Day 2.
Beyond that, still waiting to hear more from Dylan - he's been posed several questions, and I'd like to hear the answers.-
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I wouldn't be so sure. Your total of six lines and absolutely zero worthwhile content today has earned you a good hard look tomorrow, as well.SpinWizard wrote:Mr Stoofer wrote:I guess it's just a matter of opinion which one you find most scummy. Whomever we lynch,I don't see the other one surviving past tomorrow.
In those circumstances, I'm going toVote: dylan41985for the reasons given here.QFT
Vote: dylan41985-
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The Fonz wrote:If I don't here something good from Dylansoon, I'm voting Sparks.
This wasn't it.dylan41985 wrote:My initial nomination and mistakes (regardless of if you think I'm lying or not) are irrelevant at this point because I am the person challenged by Sparks.
But ask yourself this: Was it really fair for Sparks to challenge me this early? What have I done to him? Why was he so eager to challenge me? Isn't that action more suspicious that my behavior?
My theory is that Sparks is scum and anyone voting to save him ispossiblySpark's secret scum buddy.
Fonz, I really don't know how else to convince you but to say that later in the game you won't regret keeping me here. I can promise you that.
Plus, I'm a vulnerable target for future rounds.
Vote: Sparks-
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Dangerous assumption to make.dylan41985 wrote:
I think Sparks' post here will turn out to be helpful to find the last liberal mafia. It's obviously not me because he challenged me and it's very likely not danmonkey or spinwizard because Sparks lied about Carrotcake (and they voted to save me).Sparks wrote: these are my picks for omafia
liberal: dylan, danmonkey, spinwizard
conservative: stoofy, stewie, yos
We can also eliminate the people who voted to save me (because the other liberal mafia would have voted for Sparks).
That leaves:
DeanWinchester
mneme
The Fonz
VanDamien
One of these is the third liberal mafia.[/quote]
Quite possibly, but it's also entirely plausible to think the causation may run the other way- ie, Sparks accused everyone who voted against him of being scum in an OMGUSpectacular.-
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Well, no, because in that case it would have been a safe assumption, wouldn't it? It would be a dangerous assumption for precisely the reason Dean just pointed out:dylan41985 wrote:Maybe it's a dangerous assumption because YOU are the third mafia?
Precisely. It's worth noting that Carrotcake spent pretty much all of day one distancing from Sparks. Though, of course, it's equally worth noting that he (and I) voted for Dylan, so there's the well-he-would-say-that element. I think the point (we shouldn't be making any WIFOMy assumptions about what scum would and wouldn't do) is strong enough to stand nonetheless.DeanWinchester wrote:I'm here, Have not had a chance to go back and look at the thread now that we know those two are mafia.
I think making the assumption that the third member absolutely voted for sparks is dumb. There is a very good chance that the third scum voted to save dylan to distance themselves from sparks.
Whilst I agree that the conservatives are the greater threat right now, we should also bear in mind that with two dead liberals, we're not going to get any more 'connection' information than we already have- so it's probably a good idea for everyone who has the time to do a re-read focussed on the two dead scum as well, to see what clues we can pick up from there. I'll be doing my own shortly.Yosarian2 wrote:We probably want to get rid of one of the conservative mafia people today; if we go hunting for last liberal mafia member, it just makes the 3 member conservative mafia stronger and they're the biggest danger to the town right now.
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Hmm, that was unexpected. I'm thinking at the moment, the best move is to lynch VanDamien the day after we get the first conservative. At the moment, he's a non-conservative body. However, there seems little point in waiting until there's one of each left to lynch VD, unless doing so would put us in LyLo.
Anyone else got a different (read: better) plan?-
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That doesn't entirely make sense. The two scumgroups' winning condition states that the group needs to be alive (ie, at least one surviving member) and equal in number to all others surviving. If we agree to keep him alive until the first Con is found, that gives us three, rather than two, mislynches before we're at LyLo, in the scenario where our first two don't hit scum.-
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He'sBattle Mage wrote:
true. its this possibility that makes me even more certain that VD is the play. Not only is he CERTAIN scum, but also potentially Conservative, which is even better.The Fonz wrote:Nope. Because it's going to get him lynched anyway, and sooner rather than later. Why would the last liberal, if not VD, want to out himself to achieve something that's going to happen anyway?
APlay. I really don't think he's today's, though.-
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Sure. The Conservative scumgroup needs to get to the position where they've got half the remaining players. If we lynch Van now, that leaves them with three of nine, requiring three mislynches in a row to win. If we save him until the first con is caught, that means we'd have to mislynch four times in a row to lose. (Unless he is a con pulling a gambit, but even then, that doesn't change the number of lynches- we'd still need to hit con scum in the next three). It's like leaving an SK alive to prevent mafia gaining the majority in a normal game.-
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Less likely? As in, not certain!mneme wrote:
Alternative possibility. If we let things get too close to the wire, we're opening up the possibility of Van changing his mind.The Fonz wrote:If we lynch Van now, that leaves them with three of nine, requiring three mislynches in a row to win. If we save him until the first con is caught, that means we'd have to mislynch four times in a row to lose.
While I don't think it makes much sense to lynch him today, I think there comes a point when we're better off lynching him than lynching someone less likely to be scum.
Most of this is pie in the sky stuff that evaporates if Dylan's a con, though.
At this point, killing VD is almost the no-lynch option- if the deadline's nearing and we don't have anything close to a consensus candidate, we can put him up without fear of mislynch.-
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I'm with Stewie on this one.
Whilst I do think Battle Mage's actions were to the town's detriment, I still kinda get the feeling that it may well just have been a case of 'Manny being Manny' with him. I think the correct pro-town course of action here, at the very least, is to interrogate BM as thoroughly as possible, so that we can make the most informed guess about whether or not he is conservative or not.
@ Stoofer: At mimimum, the fact that BM's challenge has made a vote-offagainst a guaranteed scumfar from a foregone conclusion should, to my mind, be sufficient deterrent to anyone pulling the same in future. Nonetheless, the warning is out there: I think you can guess what I'll do if anyone tries it.
So to begin with:
I think it's rather disengenuous to claim that the fact that I noted there is a small chance of him being con scum, in the middle of a discourse which was solidly in favour of keeping VD alive at least for today, influenced you to challenge him today.However, comments by Yos and The Fonz have confirmed my decision. On the premise that VD is guaranteed scum, and potential Conservative-Scum, im willing to:
Challenge: Van Damien
I don't like this either. It's kinda like a pre-emptive adhom attack on anyone who might vote against you, trying to make out like the decision is obvious. It isn't.On the other hand, you can kill me, Vanilla Town. Then you will not only have 1 less shot at killing the Conservatives, you will also still have Van Damien to worry about. If you are town and make this choice, we DESERVE to lose.
This troubles me. Two of the three things we apparently learned today are that you are probably not scum if three different people are. I get the impression that you are not the kind of player who generally likes to analyse potential connections involving himself.mneme wrote: As it is, Battlemage ended the day after we'd gotten merely three datum:
1. VD is scum. (probably liberal, but concievably con running a gambit)
2. mneme, yos, stoofer, and stewie are probably not scum if dylan are. Probably.
3. mneme is probably not scum if BM or dean are. Probably.
Compare this to the wealth of info we got on day 1, and we see how horrible BM's action was.-
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You accused him of not reading. He said you were patronising. I can't see how the former is any more Adhom than the latter.mneme wrote:Just a bit of ad homeniem, BM? Try responding to my comments rather than just attacking me.
Or, you know, back up anything you've said. Or are you afraid of giving away your scumbuddies by saying too much?-
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So if you admit you were patronising him, why is him pointing this out an Ad Hom attack?mneme wrote:The Fonz wrote:
Of course I was patronizing him. He made an indefensible statement.mneme wrote: You accused him of not reading. He said you were patronising. I can't see how the former is any more Adhom than the latter.
@BM- Answer my questions, please.-
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The 'Manny being Manny' bit, wasn't a question. Basically, it's a baseball reference- I'm saying there's a distinct possibility that you acted in such a manner not because you're scum, butbecause you're Battle Mage. Hence, I don't think it's a good idea to jump to the conclusion we should lynch you before applying a thorough grilling to best ascertain for ourselves if this is the case or not. (Actually, BM, could you refer me to a completed game of yours as scum, for reference?)
Disengenuous- I'm suggesting that you're not being entirely fair or honest in your suggestion that what I wrote contributed in large part to your decision, as to do that you'd have to cherry pick the one reservation I have, and detach it from the broader sweep of what I was actually saying.
The other question was the 'pre-emptive adhom' bit.-
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I wasBattle Mage wrote:yeh sure. check out Yos's MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) Mafia. Theres another Newbie Game which i replaced into as scum, which i can refer you to aswell.inMAD Mafia. What's the newbie one?
No, I didn'tas for the disengenuous thing, i disagree. I mean, its true that you didnt exactly say that you thought VD should be lynched today, but it genuinely was significantly due to your post that i challenged him. I read it, and suddenly realised the logic of what you were saying, and the stupidity of keeping him alive for longer.exactlysay I thought VD should be lynched today. In fact I categorically stated that I thought he shouldn't.-
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Ah, now you see,Battle Mage wrote: you can choose to lose this game for the town aswell if you want, but do me a favour and keep your bitching for elsewhere.
i wont even bother to reiterate the hypocrisy of your comments. suffice to say i will be laughing my arse off when you add another defeat to your already sparkling record.
herewe have something that I think constitutes decent evidence of BM's scumminess. This sounds an awful lot like BMknowsStoofer is town.-
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Yes and no. Whilst insults are not the only thing covered by AdHom, they are nonetheless adhom. It seems to me what you're sayin now is your problem is not with him saying you were patronising, since after all this was true, but failing to provide any textual support for thenon-adhom part of that post, that being 'Your own comments are so dubious.' Hence, I find you slightly hypocritical.-
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Well, it's a couple of things:
Next time VD is in a challenge, we either have to lynch him, or commit to keeping him alive for a period which is likely to be until we're close to, or at, endgame. If he were to challenge, I don't want him up against anyone remotely scummy, as we'd basicallyhaveto lynch him there, and I don't want to waste an opportunity to get someone scummy in a real challenge just to kill someone we could get to commit hara-kiri.
If he's facing an ultimatum of 'get modkilled tomorrow or lynched the day after,' where that threat is credible, he can't win. It ensures that, if he is a con trying a gambit, it definitely won't work.
That leaves us free to spend tomorrow on a genuine challenge.-
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Hang on... you're convinced that Dylan is scum because he supported a lynch that not only did all but two other players back, but that YOU YOURSELF thought was a good idea? Why is Dylan's vote there any scummier than Stoofer's, mine, or indeed yours?DeanWinchester wrote:Hmm... Dylan voting to save vandamein has me conviced that Dylan I s scum. I think BM may come up town, but I still agree with his lynch it gives us more info than lynching VD.
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He's generally avoided giving opinions where possible and just tried to go with the crowd.
This was his first contribution to the game.dylan41985 wrote:i also agree
Trying to avoid taking a position.dylan41985 wrote: P.S. I am here, but want to be very cautious before accusing others at this point in the game.
Pledged to contribute more if he survived the challenge, played the 'newbie card,' posted a list of six different people he thought were pro-town, then neglected to explain the reasoning behind this list despite being repeatedly requested to.
Then, this entire post:
Is just one scumtell after another. Trying to say that his pre-challenge behaviour is irrelevant to whether or not he should be lynched. Deflection. This, to me, is a virtual admission that it was incredibly scummy.dylan41985 wrote:My initial nomination and mistakes (regardless of if you think I'm lying or not) are irrelevant at this point because I am the person challenged by Sparks.
But ask yourself this: Was it really fair for Sparks to challenge me this early? What have I done to him? Why was he so eager to challenge me? Isn't that action more suspicious that my behavior?
My theory is that Sparks is scum and anyone voting to save him ispossiblySpark's secret scum buddy.
Fonz, I really don't know how else to convince you but to say that later in the game you won't regret keeping me here. I can promise you that.
Plus, I'm a vulnerable target for future rounds.
Then tries to suggest that the person who just about everyone wanted to challenge, challenged him, was in itself scummy.
Then tries to suggest that anyone voting for Sparks was Sparks' scumbuddy. Despite the fact that two of those voting for Sparks were on his 'probably town' list from earlier.
Finishes by promising that I personally won't regret keeping him around. Since if he's a townie, he can't know my alignment, that would be an extraordinarily stupid thing to say. Makes more sense as scum, flailing to try to stay alive.
Then, day two, he nominates VanDamien immediately after the scum claim, then does a complete turnaround when I present a case for keeping VD alive.
Once the challenge happens, he posts these:
dylan41985 wrote:ooh yikes. It doesn't make sense to me that Battle Mage would put himself on the chopping block if he was a conservative after many of us agreed to keep Van Damien around.dylan41985 wrote:If Battle Mage is a conservative, I don't think he would put himself out there to potentially be voted out if he knows that we want to get rid of one of the conservatives before the last liberal. It's too risky.
Defending Battle Mage. Three posts and little content later, he hammers him.dylan41985 wrote:
We believe VD is a liberal.
We think it may be best for the town to keep him around for awhile.
Why would a conservative go up against VD knowing that we'll probably vote to save VD?
That's basically the case against Dylan in a nutshell. However, I won't nom him yet, as I get a bad vibe off Dean as well, and want to re-read him as well before i do.-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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I think the solution to that is to give newbish players every opportunity possible to demonstrate a desire to help the town. To that end, I would like to see Dylan present a reasonably thought-out explanation of who he thinks might comprise the Con scum at this point.
My re-read of Dean makes me much happier about him, actually- most of the things i was uncomfortable about, in retrospect, were to do with his behaviour relating to Sparks.
Re: VanDamien, if we believe that him being a gambitting con is a real possibility, we have to lynch him tomorrow at the latest, unless we hit con scum today (in which case, we can probably afford to kill him tomorrow anyway). We shouldn't let him live beyond tomorrow unless we're reasonably sure he's telling the truth about being Liberal.
I'd also like the analysis Albert promised.-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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Well, duh, it was your first post. But showing up and just blindly agreeing with someone else isn't a good sign.dylan41985 wrote:
This was before I really got into the game.dylan41985 wrote:i also agree
Well, I haven't seen that game, but what I will say, is that questioning other people is pretty much the only way anyone gets any information on anyone, and information is what the town needs. Acting like you think your own personal survival is more important than finding scum is scummy.
This statement is true. I told you all I go tin trouble for accusing others early in another game.dylan41985 wrote: P.S. I am here, but want to be very cautious before accusing others at this point in the game.
But if you're supposedly town, appealing to my competitive side, surely that only works ifOne scumtell after another? No. This was just me struggling to defend myself.
My promise to the Fonz that he won't regret keeping me here shouldn't be overanalyzed in regards to the fact that there are no other roles. I knew that. I was just trying to appeal to his competitive side. I think it's fair to say both mafia and townies would do that...and mafia might even avoid it because it sounds fishy.I'mtown? And you shouldn't know that.
It's not that you defended Battle Mage then voted him. I did that. It's the speed of the turnaround combined with the lack of reasoning presented. Between the third of those quotes I posted above and your hammer, you did not mention Battle Mage once.Fonz, you say that I first defend Battle Mage and then lynch him. What's wrong with that? What is scummy about that? I ultimately made a bad decision, but so did a lot of people - and I was the final vote that counted.-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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- Joined: April 2, 2007
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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- Posts: 9014
- Joined: April 2, 2007
- Location: UK
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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- Posts: 9014
- Joined: April 2, 2007
- Location: UK