Mini 456: Ultimatum Mafia - Game Over!

[Battle Mage]

hey guys. im replacing DanMonkey.
Im reading through now. this game looks like good fun.

BM

[Battle Mage]

hmm, before i believe you, id like to wait for a potential counter-claim. i really dont see the logic behind you claiming now. aside from us eliminating the last traces of Liberal-scum, it doesnt really get us much further. i dont like your plan involving a choice between you and a potential Tory. That doesnt necessarily give us any more chance of hitting scum. Assuming your claim checks out, id be far more inclined to kill you today, and then continue tomorrow, hunting for the conservatives.
Stoofer was spot on with his comments that trying to find the last Liberal was pointless, but seeing as we have to kill you eventually to win, i see no reason not to do so now, so we ensure ourselves a stronger majority tomorrow, and we can focus more clearly on killing the Conservative scumgroup.

BM

[Battle Mage]

hmm, you might be right. my brain isnt quite registering it. I just find it unnatural not to kill claimed scum, when we have no other CERTAIN leads...

[Battle Mage]

if hes a con trying a gambit, he will be countered by the REAL liberal right?
hence i requested a counter-claim.

[Battle Mage]

Nope. Because it's going to get him lynched anyway, and sooner rather than later. Why would the last liberal, if not VD, want to out himself to achieve something that's going to happen anyway?

true. its this possibility that makes me even more certain that VD is the play. Not only is he CERTAIN scum, but also potentially Conservative, which is even better.

My analysis is pending btw, though much of it may be less relevant now, in light of VD's claim.

BM

[Battle Mage]

hmm, im torn atm.
Fonz post 249, combined with my gut instinct, make me think that VD is the best play for today. On the other hand, there is alot of support for a Dylan-lynch. I didnt find his behaviour completely inexcusable, but i do agree that him dying might give us significant insight into the Conservative scum.

here's my analysis, which i began writing before VD's claim, so some of the speculation about the Liberal, is less valid now, but here it is anyway:

Stewie, Mneme and Stoofer are defo not Liberal. Dylan and Spinwizard are also probably not Liberal.
Potential Liberals include: Dean Winchester, Van Damien, The Fonz

Mneme and Dylan are not both Conservative.

I still think DW looks more Liberal than VD.

My main issue with VD's claim, is not only that the timing makes little sense, but also that DW looked so obviously the last Liberal, im genuinely shocked that he isnt. Im also a bit concerned at the lack of inclination on the part of some people to lynch the confirmed scumbag.

BM

[Battle Mage]

In fact, im decided. Dylans play has been poor, and i wouldnt trust his logic to catch us any real scum, but its still conceivable that he is town imo. Im at least willing to let him live until tomorrow, at which point we can re-evaluate the situation.
However, comments by Yos and The Fonz have confirmed my decision. On the premise that VD is guaranteed scum, and potential Conservative-Scum, im willing to:

Challenge: Van Damien

i believe we only have 24 hours left till deadline, and if its all the same, i dont want the decision to be made randomly.
This way there is also plenty of time to vote and discuss.

Of course, in my mind, the choice is clear. You can either lynch guaranteed scum, or potential scum. Im not Liberal, nor am i Conservative.

There is still the option proposed by VD, by which you allow him to challenge various people, and kill them off in the hope they come up Tory. Im not quite sure how it actually works in practice, but i wouldnt blame you for trusting a claimed scumbag who's idea makes little sense.

The way i see it, if VD is Conservative, we have this game pretty much wrapped up. If hes Liberal, its 1 scum less to worry about, and we can concentrate on finding the Conservatives. Its Win-Win.
Also, i wont be eligible to challenge tomorrow, so mathematically, the chances of scum being in the debate are slightly higher.

On the other hand, you can kill me, Vanilla Town. Then you will not only have 1 less shot at killing the Conservatives, you will also still have Van Damien to worry about. If you are town and make this choice, we DESERVE to lose.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Mr Stoofer. Whilst i commend you on your efforts to control the town, and to do things via democracy, i will request that you consider this further.
There are 4 scum left here, of 10 players in total. that means that, whilst being a minority, the scum have significant power to sway the town. In reality, it only takes 1 idiotic townie (you could use me as the example in this instance) to break this majority, and give the scum total control. Of course, you can imagine the consequences of multiple incorrect townies. scum wins the game.
So, rather than put my faith in a group of which nearly 50% are certain liars, and the remainder have good intentions, but perhaps little else, i did something i felt was right. So, you can condemn unilateral action on moral grounds, but in this instance, i feel it helps the town.

I figured such a challenge would be controversial, but im not even sure whether you can accurately call it unilateral, when in fact, i only made the challenge as a result of comments by a couple others. Ignore the fact you may dislike what i have done, and think carefully. Is it worth wasting a day that we need in order to catch the Conservative scum, or would it be better to get rid of the certain scum, and maybe deal with BM tomorrow.
In truth, im sure you can see that if i die today, you will be in the same position tomorrow, except with one less shot at victory. You must put aside your personal objections and think of whats best for the town.
I wouldnt have made this challenge if i didnt have complete faith in you to make the right decision

BM

[Battle Mage]

no. since when did you decide that the day was over?
the day only really begins when a debate is occuring. nonetheless, im a little frustrated at this 'game discipline' shit. I mean, this is a game of Mafia, not a bloody simulated Police State. If you feel it more important to teach a valuable lesson about a system which is dubious in intent and quality, than to lynch scum, thats your call. Just dont come crying to me when the town ends up losing.

[Battle Mage]

1. How is the system dubious in intent or quality?
2. We didn't want to lynch VD. We wanted to go after other scum.

1. you say that i am going against the 'will of the town', but seeing as the town is significantly made up of scum, its not unreasonable to assume that im going to trust my own intentions moreso.

2. You may not have individually expressed a wish to lynch VD, but some of you made the valid point that he could be Conservative-scum. If he is, not only would today be a roaring success mathematically, but it would also give us strong indications of other Conservatives.

BM

[Battle Mage]

what you're saying doesnt make complete sense. at least, not in terms of yesterday, during which discussion, and information only picked up DURING the debate. It seems like the same has happened here, so i dont see what you are complaining about...

Im not even going to delve into the realms of the rest of your logic.
too many holes if you catch my drift...

Come to think of it, Dean's big scumtell is still around (ie, "no, we must not call the scum scum -- we must call them a 'group of three'" , and if dylan checks out as a tory, there's a case to be made that the stuff that lead to dylan's lying was him busing Dean and then getting caught at it.

I don't quite get this. Are you saying that you think Dean and dylan are scum together?

Yes, that's likely.

Dylan dropped a third vote on Dean, then listed Dean among the players he thought was town when questioned.

I'm not going to doing anything without thinking it over, but my immediate reaction is that we

have

to make an example of Battle Mage.

Exactly so.

Given his action, the odds of BM being scum are fairly high -- and even if he isn't, the loss in info/day of letting him get away with this substantially outweighs the loss to the town of a mislynch.

BM, the only advantage of today vs a debate tomorrow is an open possibility of a choice of lynch today. By constraining the lynch to two players (yourself and VD), you've just cut off that debate, dramatically reducing the info we can get today -- you've also over-ridden the plurality lynch choice of the town (ie, dylan, who had 4 nominations, two short of a majority).

The reason we need a "system" and game discipline is that the game allows players to 1/2 daykill another player. That doesn't mean players should do so -- and in fact, it's a superbly bad idea.

Since you've engaged in it, I have to assume you don't have the town's best interests in mind.

[Battle Mage]

yes i read yesterday. hence i was able to form my opinions. dont patronise me when your own comments are so dubious...

[Battle Mage]

lol you can talk about Ad Hominem cant you.

how about YOU give me something worthwhile to respond to. either that, or stop defending your invisible scumbuddy...

[Battle Mage]

Don't have time to fully read the thread right now, will tonight probably.

My initial reaction is that we should also lynch BM. Going after VD today is pointless and not beneficial to the town.

lol gotta love that. lynching a townie is bound to help the town more than lynching a scumbag.
what the hell was i thinking...

@Stoof-you can disagree with my actions all you want. The fact that nobody else thought VD was the play, doesnt mean that he wasn't. Much as Mafia is a team game, there are great benefits to thinking for yourself. I agree that it might have been better to let VD live, IF we could guarantee hitting a Conservative today. And we just cant do that.
So, rather than following a hair-brained scheme which i didnt agree with, i decided to do what in my mind, is the best option. Kill the confirmed scum first. You might consider my action detrimental to the town, but i think you'll be singing a different tune if he comes up Conservative.
And to be honest, if you are considering killing me today, you really have no grounds to criticise me for action detrimental to the town.

Ever heard the saying 'two wrongs don't make a right'.
think about it.

[Battle Mage]

I'm with Stewie on this one.

Whilst I do think Battle Mage's actions were to the town's detriment, I still kinda get the feeling that it may well just have been a case of 'Manny being Manny' with him. I think the correct pro-town course of action here, at the very least, is to interrogate BM as thoroughly as possible, so that we can make the most informed guess about whether or not he is conservative or not.

@ Stoofer: At mimimum, the fact that BM's challenge has made a vote-off

against a guaranteed scum

far from a foregone conclusion should, to my mind, be sufficient deterrent to anyone pulling the same in future. Nonetheless, the warning is out there: I think you can guess what I'll do if anyone tries it.

So to begin with:

However, comments by Yos and The Fonz have confirmed my decision. On the premise that VD is guaranteed scum, and potential Conservative-Scum, im willing to:

Challenge: Van Damien

I think it's rather disengenuous to claim that the fact that I noted there is a small chance of him being con scum, in the middle of a discourse which was solidly in favour of keeping VD alive at least for today, influenced you to challenge him today.

On the other hand, you can kill me, Vanilla Town. Then you will not only have 1 less shot at killing the Conservatives, you will also still have Van Damien to worry about. If you are town and make this choice, we DESERVE to lose.

I don't like this either. It's kinda like a pre-emptive adhom attack on anyone who might vote against you, trying to make out like the decision is obvious. It isn't.

As it is, Battlemage ended the day after we'd gotten merely three datum:
1. VD is scum. (probably liberal, but concievably con running a gambit)
2. mneme, yos, stoofer, and stewie are probably not scum if dylan are. Probably.
3. mneme is probably not scum if BM or dean are. Probably.

Compare this to the wealth of info we got on day 1, and we see how horrible BM's action was.

This troubles me. Two of the three things we apparently learned today are that you are probably not scum if three different people are. I get the impression that you are not the kind of player who generally likes to analyse potential connections involving himself.

are these the questions you were referring to Fonzie?
it might help if you explain the meaning of 'Disengenuous' and 'Manny being Manny'.

[Battle Mage]

yeh sure. check out Yos's MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) Mafia. Theres another Newbie Game which i replaced into as scum, which i can refer you to aswell.

as for the disengenuous thing, i disagree. I mean, its true that you didnt exactly say that you thought VD should be lynched today, but it genuinely was significantly due to your post that i challenged him. I read it, and suddenly realised the logic of what you were saying, and the stupidity of keeping him alive for longer.

ill look up the other question and respond to it.

BM

The 'Manny being Manny' bit, wasn't a question. Basically, it's a baseball reference- I'm saying there's a distinct possibility that you acted in such a manner not because you're scum, but

because you're Battle Mage

. Hence, I don't think it's a good idea to jump to the conclusion we should lynch you before applying a thorough grilling to best ascertain for ourselves if this is the case or not. (Actually, BM, could you refer me to a completed game of yours as scum, for reference?)

Disengenuous- I'm suggesting that you're not being entirely fair or honest in your suggestion that what I wrote contributed in large part to your decision, as to do that you'd have to cherry pick the one reservation I have, and detach it from the broader sweep of what I was actually saying.

The other question was the 'pre-emptive adhom' bit.

[Battle Mage]

ah by pre-emptive adhom, you mean me trying to use logic to defend myself. You wont be surprised when i tell you that i rarely have opportunity to defend myself using an argument as strong as here, but truly i feel that the choice SHOULD be obvious for townies. Even if you think i COULD, or even PROBABLY AM scum, you can always kill me tomorrow. However, the only reason you could have for lynching me is if you were MORE CERTAIN of me being scum than VD. If that is the case, fair enough, but in some cases people are voting for me just because.
you yourself suggested that perhaps VD is a Conservative. actually, that makes alot more sense than him being liberal. so why is there such opposition to killing him?
BM

[Battle Mage]

to be fair Stoofer, there is no need to be patronising. i'd have thought someone with your mafia record would be more careful before bandying insults around.
you can choose to lose this game for the town aswell if you want, but do me a favour and keep your bitching for elsewhere.
i wont even bother to reiterate the hypocrisy of your comments. suffice to say i will be laughing my arse off when you add another defeat to your already sparkling record.

"Disengenuous" is a concept that your little mind will never be able to cope with.

"Manny being Manny" is a line from Black Books. It just means that you are always stupid and always do stupid things.

I am so annoyed with you I could cry.

@Stoof-you can disagree with my actions all you want. The fact that nobody else thought VD was the play, doesnt mean that he wasn't. Much as Mafia is a team game, there are great benefits to thinking for yourself. I agree that it might have been better to let VD live, IF we could guarantee hitting a Conservative today. And we just cant do that.
So, rather than following a hair-brained scheme which i didnt agree with, i decided to do what in my mind, is the best option. Kill the confirmed scum first. You might consider my action detrimental to the town, but i think you'll be singing a different tune if he comes up Conservative.
And to be honest, if you are considering killing me today, you really have no grounds to criticise me for action detrimental to the town.

Ever heard the saying 'two wrongs don't make a right'.
think about it.

I have thought about it. And I concluded that you are an idiot. Especially after you agreed that it might have been better to let VD live. Lots of people explained whu "Kill the confirmed scum first" was

NOT

the best play. But you went ahead anyway. That makes you either Scum or a Townie who so stupid that you are more dangerous to the Town than the scum.

This is not a case of two wrongs don't make a right. Regardless of VanDamien's alignment, it was very very very very very very very very wrong of you to challenge him. It was wrong because unilateral action hurts the Town. And it was wrong because the consensus was that VD was not today's play. So the right thing to do is punish you for it to make sure that no-one else does the same thing.

In addition to the two reasons given by me in post 315 above:

Thirdly

: Battle Mage is a complete idiot, who is bound to distract and hurt the Town regardless of his alignment, and the sooner he is dead the better. Further, as long as he is in the game I can't concentrate due to fury.

[Battle Mage]

you can choose to lose this game for the town aswell if you want, but do me a favour and keep your bitching for elsewhere.
i wont even bother to reiterate the hypocrisy of your comments. suffice to say i will be laughing my arse off when you add another defeat to your already sparkling record.

Ah, now you see,

here

we have something that I think constitutes decent evidence of BM's scumminess. This sounds an awful lot like BM

knows

Stoofer is town.

no lol. however i do genuinely feel that Stoofer probably is town. Many of his comments throughout the game prior to my replacing in, reflected my thoughts remarkably.

that newbie game was

newbie 336

.

[Battle Mage]

lol way to use Political Spin guys...

[Battle Mage]

im getting more convinced with every post that VD is Conservative scum. Unfortunately with his buddies protecting him, it will probably be too late by the time he actually gets killed.
well, good luck town.
If nothing else, i feel i ought to have won the debate between me and VD. :p

[Battle Mage]

i genuinely dont know. it'll be your job to work that out tomorrow i guess.

[Battle Mage]

If you're town, you're doing the best impression of scum I've ever seen.

you might wanna think about joining a 2nd game, once this one is completed.

im not arguing semantics over what i have said. ive told you what you OUGHT to do. Its out of my hands whether you do so or not.

[Battle Mage]

why do you continue to compare this with MAD, when the games are very different in structure. Firstly, players in MAD had far more free reign to do as they liked. an awoll townie could instantly kill a player who he thought was scum. Here it is very different, as the closest thing anyone can get, is limitting the vote to 2-themselves and 1 other. In other words, it is far less necessary to enforce a disciplinary policy here, than it would have been there.
i agree totally that the nominations system is useful for identifying the scum later in the game, but there comes a point where you have to use your brain instead of being dictated to. You might call it 'taking your fate in your own hands'. Lets face it, if that wasnt a conceivable idea, we wouldnt have these games in the first place, as a result of lynch-happy mobs.

unfortunately Stoofer, you have done 1 of the following:

1. Chosen to kill me because of the obvious benefit to your Conservative scumbuddies.
2. Chosen to kill me because you really cannot see past your personal obsession with rules and regulations.
3. Chosen to kill me because you dont like me.

still, im virtually dead now. I dont have a great number of suspicions to pass on. The only advice i can give you is NOT to follow the policy of people like Stoofer and Mneme. Instead, make sure you kill the CONFIRMED scum tomorrow.

you never lynch someone because of "policy", you lynch them if you think they're scum.

Well, I fundamentally disagree with this.

All the sensible players in this game (including no doubt some of the Scum who knew better than to argue) agreed with some version of the nomination system -- for good reasons which we all know.

IMHO the Town has to enforce the use of that system. Otherwise the sort of Townies who lost M.A.D/Bad Idea for the Town would simply act as they would anyway. I guess its a question of how worried you are about this, but I think we have enough lynches to be able to afford policy lynches. Indeed, I think we can't afford

not

to policy lynch -- otherwise the system breaks down and we know where that always leads...

The reason I expressed surprise was because I got the impression that you, as the Mod of M.A.D., would be vehemently in favour enforcing the nominations system. I was surprised that you weren't and I guess I was just speculating as to what your motives are. As I have said, I am genuinely surprised that you do not share my views on this.

As it happens, this may well be moot, since I think there are good grounds for thinking that Battle Mage is indeed scum. What do you think about that?

[Battle Mage]

well that was possibly the most short-lived replacement ever.
lol
still, thanks to Guardian and Pablito for running this game. If there is a sequel, count me in
at least i can stop responding to some of the political poop that is being flung at me.
gl town
BM

[Battle Mage]

or maybe TCS in Stargate SG-1. he never even got the chance to post.

[Battle Mage]

Hmm... Dylan voting to save vandamein has me conviced that Dylan I s scum. I think BM may come up town, but I still agree with his lynch it gives us more info than lynching VD.

Dylan is getting a major pass here. He should at the very least been involved in the debate today. I'm going to suspect anyone that challenges anyone, but Dylan.

Vote: Van Damien

I see know way BM actions could have helped the town.

you might have seen had you not chosen to kill me instead.

If my opinion counts for anything, id like to see 2 of the following in the challenge tomorrow:

Van Damien, Yosarian2, Mneme

I have a feeling all 3 are scum. Mneme is an experienced player, and i cant imagine being town. Van Damien is certain scum, id say quite possible Conservative at this point. Ive got a gut feeling that Yosarian could also be Tory scum. Notice the way he held back his vote until the decision was certain, then voted to save me, in an attempt to look good tomorrow.

I think Dean is town. There is little logic that would lead him to join a wagon on someone he KNOWS is townie, when he doesnt have to. of course, if VD does come up Conservative, Dean could well be Liberal-Scum.

Im not sure about Stoofer. Albert seems town, but i wouldnt bet money on it. The Fonz is probably the most likely protown player imo.
Stewie feels town to me, whereas i could easily see Dylan as Tory-scum, who has spent most of the day being bussed by his team-mates.

good luck once again guys. im intrigued to see how well my suspicions play out. :p

[Battle Mage]

I have a feeling all 3 are scum. Mneme is an experienced player, and i cant imagine being town. Van Damien is certain scum, id say quite possible Conservative at this point. Ive got a gut feeling that Yosarian could also be Tory scum. Notice the way he held back his vote until the decision was certain, then voted to save me, in an attempt to look good tomorrow.

Held back until decision was certain? You mean, you suspect me for NOT scummily jumping the gun and ending the day early the way Stoofer and Dylan did?

exactly. you are defending me hard now, now that i am definitely lynched, and you know i will come up town. Your timing seems wrong for a protown player.

oh and before i go, someone tell Stoofer to stfu. Not only is he contributing very little of value to the town, his flaming seems to be becoming a sort of habit. I mean seriously, i can understand a grouchy guy giving out the occassional insult, but you criticise my intelligence every other sentence. Its hilariously ironic aswell, but ive neglected to point that out as of yet, because i didnt feel the need to stoop to your level. However, i now feel that this issue needs to be addressed, not just in this game, but for you in general as a player.
I mean seriously, unless you have some severe superiority complex, there's no need to go as far as you do. This is a GAME, and most of us are here for enjoyment. the last thing anyone needs is for their enjoyment to be spoiled by some guy who thinks he is always right, and flames people who beg to differ.

oh and yes, Stewie is right. Even if i did come up conservative, those on my wagon would be far from cleared.

BM

[Battle Mage]

the game setup itself was great, but i felt our performance was abominable. I think we lost because some people read too much into the difference in gameplay, and decided to lynch solely for reasons based on that, rather than actually striving to lynch the most likely to be scum. I was onto Yos before i died which was nice, but i would've said both Albert and The Fonz looked protown when compared with some others. good play all in all by the Conservatives, i just wish we'd given you more of a run for your money. :p

[Battle Mage]

Heh...it's funny, BM, but I would say my actions on the day you were lynched were just about exactally what they would have been in I was town. There were some points of the game where I did act scummy, but I don't think that was one of them.

thats sorta what i mean. You played like the PERFECT townie i.e. defending those who were town and attacking those who were scum. However when it was certain that i was going to get lynched, and you appeared to defend me, it seemed pretty likely that you had inside knowledge that i was town. Dont get me wrong, it was good play, but had i survived, you would have been my top suspect on the next day (not that that would have got me anywhere most probably)

[Battle Mage]

i agree with Mneme that we definitely need a sequel to this. If only to regain some pride in our townsmanship

[Battle Mage]

ah Yos-MAD was the exception to the rule. With me on the side of the scum, the town never stood a chance.

[Battle Mage]

just to clarify, Mneme, this makes no sense. In theory it is flawed, because the scum are going to be reluctant to make such challenges anyway. A better policy would be to do the exact OPPOSITE of what you are saying, and kill the guy who got challenged. In practice, this game has proven how bad such logic is. What you are saying is pretty evasive. I mean, the situation you describe didnt happen. On the day i was lynched, it wasnt a conflict between 2 equally town players. It was a conflict between a CONFIRMED scumbag, and an eager townie. Not that it made a difference to the end result, it would have been significantly better to have at least been successful in eliminating 1 scumgroup. Instead 'policy lynches' and then an incredibly powerful Conservative group, cost the town the game. I'd have thought you'd have realised this by now.

BM

Yosarian2: In the specific case (and as I'd have pointed out had I logged in any time between Wednesday and Sunday), this isn't the case.

It's true that the scum never want to get into a challenge -- but in this case, Albert had been -forced- onto a bandwagon--and chose to have it be between himself and someone most players thought (correctly) was town.

Moreover, pre-deadline challenges are often anti-town, even when they are most often perpetuatied by townies -- I still think the policy lynches on days 1 and 2 were correct play, though regrettable (well, except in Sparks' case).

In that kind of situation, you vote the person creating the situation -- because forcing the situation is itself an anti-town act. If you think two players are equally town and one does a deadline challenge on the other, you save the defender.

A non-deadline challenge is stickier, as above -- challenging is pro town in theory (more risk == scum don't want to do it), but often anti-town in practice.

[Battle Mage]

dude, you are reading way too much into this. This game is a prime example to me of how, in games with complicated setups, or significant differences, you have to bear in mind the basic idea of the game, which is STILL, to kill the scum. Now the problem we had here, was that some people (yourself included) read far too much into the flavour and differences, and lost the actual purpose. In ANY OTHER GAME, you would be totally stupid not to have lynched the confirmed scum in that situation. The same was true here, but your mind was clouded. The fact was (and i stated this at the time) even if you felt i was 'potential high-priority scum', why not lynch me the next day?
And you are of course missing 1 vital point here. VanDamien wasn't confirmed Liberal Scum. He was still as much potential Conservative scum, as anyone else. As it happened, he wasn't, but then neither was i. Your logic falls flat at the fact that his claim left open the option of him being conservative scum. Had he been Conservative scum, we would have almost certainly lost the game, even if we succeeded in killing all his buddies.

BM

@Stoofer- yeh i heard something about that in another game. Apparently Jathan is also an alt of SL.
is that even allowed?

BM: You were one of the reasons we lost. Really -- you forced us to lynch you by playing the "maverick" card, making us choose between a low-priority scum and a potential high-prioirty scum.

The fallacy of "scum will never challenge" was pretty well proven by the gameplay -- half the challenges were made by scum (admitedly, nearly all the challenges were deadline challenges).

The question of how to vote between challenger and challengee is much more complicated than presented -- precisely because the "natural" state of the game is to rapidly devolve into an orgy of chaos from which some random group (likely a scumgroup) emerges victorious.

That state isn't good for the town, which is -why- we spent so much time discussing strategy.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage, menme is absolutely correct in what he says. You need to listen more to experienced players who are saying things only because they want to help.

its nice of you to offer your opinion Stoofer, but if its all the same, could you please explain your view?
Its human nature not to trust something that sounds completely stupid, even if somebody intelligent says it.
Oh and as a note, experienced people aren't always right. just 95% of the time. lol

[Battle Mage]

lol i repeat, you are looking too much into honour and morals. There IS NO HONOUR when your actions cost the town the game. Do you really think your contribution to this game was one that you are proud of? Will you be boasting of your performance here for weeks to come? I think not.
true enough, a change of stance is often scummy. But I WASNT EVEN HERE when this agreement was made. I felt, rightfully it seems, it was flawed. If you care so much about enforcing rules, you should get a job in the police force, or a school. However, this is a game. You have to adapt. Discipline is often nice, but in Mafia Games, it isn't very reliable. In fact, enforcing such a strategy didnt just get innocent townies lynched, but after it had failed, it made the people who orchestrated it (you and Stoofer) look scummy, and thus got you lynched next.

this game is a shining example that we should stick to Mafia concepts, even in games where there are rule changes.

Also, re BM -- game honor is very important. If you don't do what you say you're going to do, you look scummy -- and punishing people who act disengeniously is one of the ways the town catches scum.

So if Stoofer and I hadn't pushed the BM lynch, it would have (and certainly -should- have) been worse than had we not done so.

Now, whether the "pact" as it was was optimal is another question -- it may have given reckless players and scum too much power in controlling lynches (frex, one wonders what would have happened had I challenged Fonz on the day I died, as I'd have likely done after my analsys if it hadn't been a contradition of my principles). But something like it was necessary.

[Battle Mage]

lol bravo. you managed to take out 2 noobs early on. Then, once the 3rd one outted himself, YOU ALLOWED HIM TO SURVIVE. It would be reasonable to argue that it was because of you, that we didnt kill the entire Liberal Mafia.
I really cant fathom how you think you would have been cleared. seriously. lol

the agreement wasn't unilateral, if somebody didn't agree to it (or do i have the definition wrong?). Its amazing that you still seem to deny that this was a crap strategy. You must have realised that, when almost everyone agreed to something, it must have benefitted the scum in some way. Equally, you can't expect people to go along with something that makes no damn sense, just because someone else says to, when that someone could themselves be scum!!!

BM

There IS NO HONOUR when your actions cost the town the game.
Do you really think your contribution to this game was one that you are proud of?

Yes.
I pretty much singlehandedly smoked out the liberal mafia, and gave the town the best chance we had of winning.

That the town believed scum lies and lynched me in the midgame? The game's a team effort -- but Stoofer and I should have been cleared by that point.

But I WASNT EVEN HERE when this agreement was made

Irrelevant. The agreement was unilateral--that people should be forced to challenge according to the nominations and popular ideas or have the votes against them.

You called our bluff -- it wasn't one.

this game is a shining example that we should stick to Mafia concepts, even in games where there are rule changes.

Heh.

We seem to have different ideas on what "mafia concepts" are.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage, menme is absolutely correct in what he says. You need to listen more to experienced players who are saying things only because they want to help.

its nice of you to offer your opinion Stoofer, but if its all the same, could you please explain your view?
Its human nature not to trust something that sounds completely stupid, even if somebody intelligent says it.
Oh and as a note, experienced people aren't always right. just 95% of the time. lol

feels good eh?

[Battle Mage]

i agree with your idea in theory, but in practice, had i said that, i'd inevitably either be challenged by somebody who thought VD was a bad play, or worse still, somebody else would jump in before me, and VD would be given another day of survival.
fyi, i do felt i explained the move as well as i could. I believe both The Fonz and you yourself suggested that VD could be Conservative scum (though as it happens, you were both scum yourselves) lol.
However, when it came to the crunch, people cared too much about morals and me going against the status quo, than killing the actual scum. I did realise that perhaps my challenge would be met with some disagreement, and that i would probably be met with suspicion the next day, but i genuinely thought you guys would have had more sense than to kill me on that day.

BM, to be fair, while I don't think lynching you was the right move, it was also partly your fault due to play errors on your part as well. Specifically, if you really thought that the consensess was wrong and thought Van needed to be challanged, you probably should have floated the idea first. Said "Look, I really think Van could be conservative, and he's definatly a scum, and I think he needs to go now. I'll listen to what you have to say, but unless someone convinces me otherwise in the next day or so, I'll challange him myself." If you had done that, then even if people didn't agree with you, you would have had a better shot of surviving that challange, and if people disagred TOO violently you would have had a chance to back down instead. As it was, you were basically counting on the good will and trust of the town at the same time you had just done a move that seemed irrational and confusing to most of the town, and didn't really explain why you did it. If you had thought about it first, you probably could have predicted your move wasn't going to be very popular if you did it that way, and that it was likely to get you lynched. Whenver a townie gets lynched, it's usually both the fault of that townie and of the town in different degrees, and usually both sides can learn and improve their play from it.

[Battle Mage]

The ultimate point here is, howwever, assuming subsequent lynches had occured as they did - your lynch over mine, BM, mad no difference in the way the game ended.

Beyond that - going against the status quo is exactly what outed both me and sparks.

hmm, not necessarily. As a townie who actually benefitted by killing the Conservatives, there is the possibility that i might have made different choices. You are basically saying that an SK is the same as a Vig.

@Stewie-again, you miss the possibility that VD

was

Conservative-scum, in which case the town would have been even more screwed.

[Battle Mage]

It wasn't coincidence that ALL the pro-towners voted to kill BM.

QFT x 1,000,000

Indeed, it was so obvious that pro-towners would vote to kill BM that I (correctly) figured out that Yosarian2 was scum because he voted to save BM.

was that sarcasm? i'm still waiting on your explanation Stoofy.
Let me just clarify one thing though in response to Fonz's comment:
didn't the town LOSE the game?

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage, think about this.

All the pro-town players voted to kill you. Every single one. So either:

1. Every single one of the pro-town players was being illogical, and you are the only one playing the game logically,
   or
   
2. You played so badly that every pro-town player wanted you dead.

Which do you think it was?

I'd say it was a combination of both. I assume you will try and blame the entire town defeat on me. gg.