Mini 491: Porly Ritten Flayver. Game over.

[Jack]

that's good logic

vote:MeMe

[Jack]

fos:adel

there's nothing wrong with the logic. What do you disagree with specifically?

@desisted: 2nd vote already?

[Jack]

Of course you realize this means war...

[Jack]

that doesn't mean it's not logical.

[Jack]

unvote,vote:adel

he's right...

[Jack]

An argument can still be logical even if the premise is flawed i.e:

1) All scum have avatars that change depending on how you look at them, and no townies do
2) Adel has an avatar that changes depending on how you look at it
3) Adel is scum

perfectly logical...

Jack has 1719 game posts. Who has played with him before? What I'm reading as a pair of newbie-scum tells can't be newbie-scum tells. Can a couple people share an informed metagame read on him?

I've played with him before, in my metagame opinion don't take him too seriously on the first few pages...

[Jack]

unvote,vote:sir tornado

LOL give yourself away why don't you

[Jack]

btw adel you and me have played in a game before...remember assassin's mafia?

[Jack]

Adel, I really disagree with your last line.

His conclusion is at best a townie trying to start discussion.

unvote,vote:adel

[Jack]

fos:the kravhen, the fonz, and desisted0/b] because I'm not finding javert scummy.

[Jack]

unvote,vote:k-scope

you should know better.

fos:the fonz

again, because the things he's saying about javert are totally off. Javerts first vote isn't "something scum often do" adel posted a link where he used it as town, I've used it as town as well. His switch to adel isn't omgus because adel was voting for me not for javert, and adel had said some scummy things . And he

hasn't

voted desisted.

Actually I'm going to

unvote,vote:the fonz

because he's making serious accusations without having read the thread closely, which is a scum sign.

[Jack]

You're accusing me of not having read the thread closely, and you refer to Adel as 'he?'

Don't sidestep. Gender has nothing to do with the mafia game.

[Jack]

well i must say its long and painful reading this argument over and over.


in my opinion its a non tell, but given it was a page 1 argument, i have no problem with it and it has moved us out of random voting, so i appreciate that.

but all and all, this is getting blown up way more than it needs to be

agreed

[Jack]

Define eccentric.

@adel: do you find all the active players to be definite protown?

[Jack]

Why do you think that's scummy?

[Jack]

Why the fuck not?

I'm stupid, explain it to me.

[Jack]

That's not really true...

[Jack]

You can play the wifom either way on that. But it's not a scum tell.

[Jack]

No shit it's going to make them stick out, but that's trivial when their focus is on building up the bandwagon. Scum don't win by just sitting back and doing nothing.

Yes they do...

[Jack]

hmm

unvote,vote:kscope

lurking scum always have a quick excuse.

[Jack]

unvote,vote:MeMe

d3sisted (if townie) is just the kind of person scum love to target. You've been sitting with your vote on him all game without bothering to do much elsewhere and now you complain about lack of posting?

[Jack]

Is it your opinion that d3sisted is completely unworthy of a vote from non-scum?

There's no need to speak in absolutes. Mafia isn't a game of absolutes.

[Jack]

admitting that non-scum have adequate reason to vote d3sisted would completely negate my stated reason for switching my vote to you,

It quite clearly doesn't. There are scum and non scum on nearly every wagon. Do you deny that there are some wagons scum are especially drawn to? This is like me voting you for quick hammering someone and you saying that the fact that it isn't always scum that quick hammer completely negates my accusation.

Also, don't pretend this part of my post doesn't exist:

You've been sitting with your vote on him all game without bothering to do much elsewhere and now you complain about lack of posting?

You say your

happiest

with a d3sisted lynch, but are you

happy

with a d3sisted lynch?

The point of my accusation was not only that you were sitting on what I think is a a likely scum target, but you haven't made much effort to look around for other scum.

[Jack]

I'm not pretending any of your post doesn't exist, I just thought that equating a lack of vote movement to "without bothering to do much else" was hyperbole. I think that looking over my posts you should be able to see that I've been paying attention, questioning, and attempting to keep the game from dying. I don't change my vote every post, but neither am I opposed to doing so if the situation warrants it which, in my opinion, has not yet occurred.

I don't seem much evidence of that. I would say you've lazily poked a few people.

But sure, I have no problem agreeing that scum like it when townies (as you specified he'd have to be to make your accusation viable) make themselves look scummy. It's a gift. Now, will you agree that pro-town players should vote people who look like scum because that's our job? To me, it's up to you to justify why you're

excusing

scummy behavior in favor of going after a player who's choosing not to excuse it.

As for the happy/happiest distinction -- what the hell?

I'm excusing him based on gut. I'm assuming you are accusing him based on same. But I'm am clearly not interested in the mere fact that you are voting d3sisted (I haven't gone after patrick or chaosOmega). Wouldn't you be suspicious of someone you saw sitting on an easy scum target, not really pursuing anyone else, and complaining about the lack of posting?

happy/happiest--you'd prefer to lynch d3sisted currently, but would you really be happy to lynch someone so early?

[Jack]

It came from you saying you'd be happiest with a d3sisted lynch.

[Jack]

I forgot we were under deadline.

Apparently d3sisted is going to claim a power role?

[Jack]

unvote,vote:kscope

What does "obvobvobv" mean?

[Jack]

I like to cast a vote whenever I turn my attention on someone.

@d3sisted: it's almost deadline, you are in the lead, you asked if theres a doc...

[Jack]

fos:logicticus

that kind of vote analysis is easy for scum to do

[Jack]

So, obviously that nine sticks out. Jack, care to explain why its so easy to earn a vote for you?

Right now the person I am most suspicious of is Jack because I have never seen vote hopping like this, but I will hold off voting until his response

Previously in this game:

I see it as scum's best interest to hop around onto different wagons to see which ones pick up speed. That way, not only are they hidden behind the other riders, they are also moving as quickly as possible towards the next mislynch.

thats so wrong.

people who switch their votes all the time stick out and make themselves targets.

there has already been plenty of convo about people voting too much so scum switching all the time would just make them visible.

unvote,vote:logicticus

[Jack]

What exactly do you mean when you say "well, this is a bit wifom in my opinion".

absence of vote does not make a difference in this case.

[Jack]

Wiggle wiggle, squirm squirm.

Your first post made it quite clear that you did not consider vote hopping to be scummy behavior. Now you come back and claim it's wifom, but even so you have shifted from favoring one side of the wifom to favoring the other. If it was "so wrong" of d3sisted to accuse me of that then it's "so wrong" of you. And now you are backing off on the language you are using to accuse me "somewhere in the middle" and "least townie" instead of "most suspicious".

Now, you accuse me of not actively hunting, and this is why I'm your "least townie". But what about this quote from your scumdar:

And then there is a worthless group of people who have done little: ChaosOmega, kscope, kravhen and sir tornado (I would add myself there too). They have done little to none to add to the convo and general and earn the term lurker.

5 other people

who aren't hunting scum?

Secondly, on what are you basing your claim that I'm not actively hunting? I post shit, get people to respond to it, and go after something if I think it's a little bit suspicious. You are accusing me of switching around and not focusing on one person but

that's precisely what scum hunting is

you have to look around at everyone you can't just focus on one person. Once you've found someone you think is scum, then you focus. Do you also claim that my attack on you is not scum hunting?

[Jack]

do you think logictus is scum? do you think he is more suspicious than d3sisted?

[Jack]

You say he's suspicious but you use "oppurtunistic scum" instead of "bussing scum".

[Jack]

If the wagon built up really really quick doe that mean that the scum on it are there because he is innocent or becuase they are bussing him? How can we evaluate the difference without immediately risking a mislynch?

false dilemma

townies wagon quickly too

let's just lynch him jesus. he's scum

[Jack]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]I'm not planning on voting logisticus, even though he has contradicted himself. Jack is pulling his vote switching into the extreme. Also, the way this wagon build so quickly is not something I see alot of townies do. My vote is staying on Jack.[/quote]

fos:kscope

Let's see, what was that game I played with you? Triad? The one where I vote switched extremely as townie, and where the town quicklynched the most townie seeming person on day 1 page 5 with only one scum on the wagon?

I have a hard time believing you are being honest.

[Jack]

I'm also looking forward to the answer...but it's not deserving of the "brilliant" label Adel interestingly gave it.

fos:MeMe

Is this seriously the only comment you have? This is looking deliberately anti-town. What do you think about logicticus? Saying that things are "interesting" and that you want the answer really reveals nothing about you, and townies shouldn't hide these things.

[Jack]

I thought most likely to generate a response from someone.

So the comment was planned for a certain response? What kind of thing were you expecting/looking for?

Quite simply, you're wrong. Townies who are overly concerned about looking townie often either 1) wind up dead sooner than those who know how to edit their posts down to the essentials or 2) get accused of trying too hard to look townie.

Stating your opinion on someone and looking for scum isn't being overly concerned. Actually I think "too townie" is a false tell. Your #2 is something scum would be more worried about than townie.

I'm perfectly ready to lynch logicticus. He

already has

responded to the case against him. I didn't think there was anything unusual about Adel's post, what did it make you think?

[Jack]

I guess I'll start with a

vote:k-scope

same reasons as yesterday

[Jack]

I recall sir tornado being much more active as town in the game I was in with him.

[Jack]

Adel, what do you think of k-scope?

[Jack]

A more careful analysis of Sir Tornado reveals that he has similar posting frequency in a game as townie as in your game with him when he was scum. I don't think it's enough of a tell to be convincing.

We probably shouldn't speculate about what "prostitute" was, I don't think it will help us any.

[Jack]

So I'm guessing prostitute is one of the vanilla townies? I can't really tell because the goddamned flavour is so poorly written.

Haha, I kid of course. Took me a while to get that pun though


Anyway, I'm definitely looking at KScope's reluctance to vote logicticus as suspicious.

I'm also just sitting here shaking my head at ChaosOmega's 221.

Could you elaborate a little more? What do you dislike about 221? Are you more likely to vote Chaos today than Kscope?

[Jack]

No it's not. Do you disagree with his vote? Or do you agree not care about the vote simply about the lack of reasoning? What about my other questions?

[Jack]

you do roll crazy. jester mafia was about 4 posts per page by my estimation (townie), same as your game. He said that he's in 12 games, it's plausible that he's overstretched and this one didn't draw his attention and those huge long pointless arguments drew him away. I don't think his absence can be counted as as scum tell. Don't have a problem with your vote as he needs to post. Looking at his posts, he dissappeared around the 24th, and was absent during the whole logicticus debate. That's what I would say is scummy, rather than going by postcount. My own postcount/lurkiness varies wildly by game and isn't consistent with my alignment, which is why I don't like such tells.

Btw, you are severely misguided if you think any scum worth their salt would out and out lie about something as easily checkable as someones behavior in another game. Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by laziness. That's totally wifom btw.

[Jack]

May I ask for a little wagon on k-scope please

[Jack]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Patrick: I never admitted I was aware of Jack's votehopping. Triad was the only game I played with him (which I can recall), and I died there N1. So no, I didn't, and still don't. My gut still says jackscum.

Vote: Jack

[/quote]

Really that's funny.

Here's triad for anyone who's interested: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&&start=0

I have 7 changes of vote by about halfway through page 2, and about 4 people have mentioned my vote hopping, some repeatedly. Let's look at some of their comments shall we? Oh look, here's one from k-scope himself:

[quote="k-scope"]I agree with Nai that Jack's so called "joke" votes doesn't make sense in that much frequency. The agressiveness in which Jack strikes towards Nai could be suspicious but makes sense in this part of the game to start discussion. [/quote]

And yet you were not aware of my vote hopping in that game, and think such vote hopping is suspicious?

[Jack]

I'll also drop an

fos:javert

so I don't forget. Don't bother asking, this is just for reference.

[Jack]

I don't really see where the fonz is going with that. Given the stuff he posted about kravhen, I don't see why he'd vote him over d3sisted given that he described that as a "pretty solid case".

[Jack]

People misuse omgus way too much.

[Jack]

By that I mean they say things are omgus which aren't.

[Jack]

I'm particularly interested in Adel's answer.

[Jack]

posting to avoid prod

Well thanks

[Jack]

Mod:replace adel please

[Jack]

Vote:kravhen

1)Timing of the votes on scum,

Horrible.
You guys are tearing my posts apart. I'm clumsy. I'll admit I don't put as much analysis in the games as you guys do because of time restraints

2)defeatist attitude reminding me of both logicticus and k-scope

3)poor defense

4)process of elimination

5)general laxness of trying to find scum

[Jack]

lynch -1

[Jack]

Whoah! That was an unexpected twist. I had no idea my blocks were successful, hadn't considered a vigilante. Though the MeMe kill does make more sense.

D3sisted did confirm himself in my eyes by saying that bit about poorly written flavor. When logicticus came up as "goon" I realized the mafia didn't know.

Night 1: blocked K-scope. There was a kill so I thought his partner did it.
Night 2: blocked pooky. Very surprised when there was a kill. Adel had acted scummy most of the game and pooky was avoiding the k-scope wagon as d3sisted mentioned.
Night 3: Sir tornado

[Jack]

Very pleased with this game.

I think the flavor mechanic was balanced. If one of the power roles had had to claim, the mafia could have looked back at the speculation about MeMe's role and realized that d3sisted had a role, possible that I had a role for trying to shut down the discussion, and that other people didn't have a role. I considered after I posted that that I should have gone with the flow and pretended to think MeMe was the roleblocker too. If either of the lynched scum had bothered to claim, they would have been much better off.

Who did the mafia target night one and two?

Would have been a funny situation day 4 when you guys were about to lynch pooky and I claimed saying that he must be innocent because someone got killed that night...lol. I didn't think there would be a vig in the setup when we already had a cop,doctor,and rb.