Mini 491: Porly Ritten Flayver. Game over.

[Adel]

vote:MeMe

because she scares me.

[Adel]

no it isn't

unvote:MeMe vote:Jack

[Adel]

fos:adel

there's nothing wrong with the logic. What do you disagree with specifically?

It is a throughly discredited tell. It is almost as discredited as the idea that the Earth is flat.

[Adel]

that doesn't mean it's not logical.

now I think you must be somehow impaired in your understanding of logic. The idea may be internally consistent, but when viewed in the context of multiple games and commentaries the conclusion is shown to be false. That means it is not logically valid because the central assumption is false. Garbage in:: garbage out.

[Adel]

unvote,vote:adel

he's right...

Jack has 1719 game posts. Who has played with him before? What I'm reading as a pair of newbie-scum tells can't be newbie-scum tells. Can a couple people share an informed metagame read on him?

[Adel]

Barely. I was lynched in something like 8 hours. I stopped reading it after I died.

[Adel]

Questions.

1.)

Adel, please show me where you have seen somebody use the 'tell' I used – and not only that, where it was 'discredited'.

Use: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3&start=16
Discredited: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5917

In addition, your Post 21 seems to be more for the purpose of putting yourself on a logical pedestal instead of actually arguing why the logic

itself

is "bad". You should be addressing the argument, instead of waving your hand and deeming it discredited.

It is discredited, so I wave my hand at it.

Here is my argument, if you would like it in "logical" form:

Premise #1

: MeMe was on-line, but it appeared as though she did not confirm her role immediately (explained in more detail in question #3)

Premise #2

: A townsperson (not necessarily a townie) should have very few reasons (which I will not detail as this gets into role speculation) to not confirm their role immediately.

Premise #3

: A scum with at least one partner, however, has a reason to not confirm immediately: specifically to contact said partner(s) before the game begins.

Conclusion

: Therefore, MeMe is more likely to be scum than she otherwise would be.

Note that there is no 'perfect' scumtell. Anything that makes somebody more likely to be scum than the average chances of being scum is a scumtell.

Premise 1: False or unprovable
Premise 2: Possibly true, but hasn't been in my experience. Also unprovable. Difference between scum behavior and possible powerrole behavior is slight enough that your use of this point is possibly motivated by you being rolefishing scum. If I were scum I would be worried about MeMe being a powerrole. I'm town and even I am scared of her. logicticus just gave other specific examples for why this premise coud easily be false.
Premise 3: logicticus also just gave other specific example for why this premise coud easily be false.

...Therefore you conclusion is at best suspect, and at worst a symptom of you being scum trying to out powerroles and lead us to a townie lynch.

[Adel]

You

just

gave an example of a game where

you

used what you believed to be an exact replication of what I did in this game. You were town in that game, and so was the person you voted. How then can you call my conclusion "suspect" if you have done the "same thing"?

I learned from it. Notice my use of it predated the thread which discredits it.

[Adel]

Unvote: MeMe, Vote: Adel

I look forward to MeMe, Patrick, and The Fonz weighing in on this development.

[Adel]

Indeed.

[Adel]

Unvote

I have no problems at all with that early line of enquiry. Getting out of the random stage early is good, especially when we have automatic 2 week deadlines in this game.

The original argument itself, although clearly not very strong, seems to be fair game on page 1. I'm confused by the people who are saying stuff along the lines of, "You seem to be searching for anything you can to attack MeMe". I find it actually slightly protown to immediately try and start an argument rather than just place a random vote and do nothing.

Adel, what does your last post mean? Do you think you were wrong? Do you think you've just reached an impasse?

I don't think I was wrong, but I felt Javert and I were at an impasse until you MeMe and The Fonz posted. I expected him to be under more pressure after y'all posted. Now I am looking forward to his responses to The Fonz and MeMe.

[Adel]

Thanks, when someone places rhetorical points over objective truth it is really frustrating to debate them alone.

This would be when I'd expect Javert to declare "success" and announce that he wants to move on.

[Adel]

What do you think we should be moving onto?

Getting some kind of content-filled post from all of our many lurkers. There is enough here to reasonably expect an opinion form everyone. I think the active posters should cooperate in encouraging the inactive players to contribute.

[Adel]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Well, done reading.

First of all, the "late confirming" is really a nulltell. If the Mod was lazy with updating, you bassicly have the chance of nailing a townie because of it. If you're using that sort of evidence which only one player may have noticed to use it for a day 1 lynch is something I find terribly scummy. You have to trust

one

player on it. Chances are he was wrong and we end up lynching him as well, resulting in a townslaughter early game. So bassicly, any of these things said about it is something I'm not going to buy.

With that being said, I will

Vote: Jack

for his flip-flop voting[/quote]

Seriously. Also, he said that there were four names unbolded, including MeMe's. One out of four. Good logic? Nope.

unlogical - lacking in correct logical relation

If the premise that an argument is built on is unlogical, then the conclusion of the argument is also unlogical. At least that is my understanding of it. I guess The Fonz and others may differ.

[Adel]

unvote,vote:k-scope

you should know better.

fos:the fonz

again, because the things he's saying about javert are totally off. Javerts first vote isn't "something scum often do" adel posted a link where he used it as town, I've used it as town as well. His switch to adel isn't omgus because adel was voting for me not for javert, and adel had said some scummy things . And he

hasn't

voted desisted.

Actually I'm going to

unvote,vote:the fonz

because he's making serious accusations without having read the thread closely, which is a scum sign.

Is any one keeping track? This is his second OMGUS vote, right? Like if did it twice his vote wouldn't stick out as much like a fish out of water.

[Adel]

Yes, which is exactly what I'm talking about. If night-talking roles could talk during pre-game, doesn't it follow that they are also given a night-choice?

NO.

[Adel]

huh. i'm not sure of what to make of that.

[Adel]

apparently my sarcasm was too subtle...

That answered my question, actually.

[Adel]

I haven't been in a game yet where there wasn't a really active player who is scum. Could this game break that pattern? Are our scum all trying to lurk through to the end-game?

[Adel]

Define eccentric.

@adel: do you find all the active players to be definite protown?

definite? hell no. I just suspect the lapse in the typical train of wagons could indicate that all of the scum have been lurking so far in this game.

[Adel]

Does anyone mind if I just don't both responding to Javert? I don't have the time to fight in any typing wars right now, and I don't think it is healthy to spend over half of our time before deadline stalled out on page 1 issues. Seriously. Remember the Signel:Noise ratio. Right now I think it is something like 1:20 or 1:30. Bad.

[Adel]

unvote:jack

I haven't kept up with my games for a couple days now, and it looks like I missed a critical event in this one. Catching up now...

[Adel]

If the wagon built up really really quick doe that mean that the scum on it are there because he is innocent or becuase they are bussing him? How can we evaluate the difference without immediately risking a mislynch?

[Adel]

Sorry for the double post. I expected someone else o post before i finished reading.

Major thouhgt: why does Javert make so much sense to me when he is criticizing logictious?

Is there anyone else who thinks his case against me sounded bogus but his case against logicitous is sound?

Javert: I don't remember who I thought was lurking at the time. I didn't write a note either.

[Adel]

<3 kravhen

brilliant!

[Adel]

Blah....I played this very very poorly.

I have never thrown the towel in before, but I just spent 2 hours trying to write something reasonable that might be believed and even I dont believe it after I write it.

Well, all I can do is learn from my mistakes.

Sorry scum buddies, I hope you guys can pull it out playing a man down really early.

wow. that makes it really easy. i've never successfully hammered scum before.

vote: logicticus

[Adel]

I recall sir tornado being much more active as town in the game I was in with him.

I recall Sir Tornado having about this level of activity in the game we were scum in together- the same game Patrick was the mod for.

[Adel]

vote: Sir Tornado

[Adel]

Adel, what do you think of k-scope?

The wagon on him so far makes sense. I'm currently more suspicious of Sir Tornado. They do seem guilty of several of the same sins though.

I thought a prostitute is and always has been the original name for "roleblocker". It is on the flash by mikeburnfire, right?

[Adel]

A more careful analysis of Sir Tornado reveals that he has similar posting frequency in a game as townie as in your game with him when he was scum.

Kindly share your analysis as well as the names of the games where he was townie as that you used as evidence.


I'm not about to take

your

word for it.

[Adel]

you do roll crazy. jester mafia was about 4 posts per page by my estimation (townie), same as your game. He said that he's in 12 games, it's plausible that he's overstretched and this one didn't draw his attention and those huge long pointless arguments drew him away. I don't think his absence can be counted as as scum tell. Don't have a problem with your vote as he needs to post. Looking at his posts, he dissappeared around the 24th, and was absent during the whole logicticus debate. That's what I would say is scummy, rather than going by postcount. My own postcount/lurkiness varies wildly by game and isn't consistent with my alignment, which is why I don't like such tells.

Btw, you are severely misguided if you think any scum worth their salt would out and out lie about something as easily checkable as someones behavior in another game. Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by laziness. That's totally wifom btw.

I'm afraid that my post ended up sounding far more confrontational than I intended. I'm sorry about that.

I've been in 5 games with Sir Tornado, two of which he was scum and he won in. Three are ongoing. In one of the ongoing games he was NK'd night one while playing a town role.

The question I was trying to say in my earlier post is: how many games with Sir Tornado did you look at to form that opinion of him? By bolding the word "you" I meant to communicate that since we haven't agreed on much in this game I doubted that we would agree this time. And I think you are scummy, but that is secondary. Mostly, I doubt you have as much experience playing with Sir Tornado as I do.

[Adel]

Play by Chaos in this game is similar to the other game I played with him where he was town, and I got him lynched because I thought he was scum. For what it is worth.

[Adel]

posting to avoid prod

[Adel]

@Adel: perhaps you would like to add something to this discussion rather than "Posting to avoid prod"?

nah. thanks though.

[Adel]

I've been neglecting a bit.

Adel's last post sucks, if you don't want to play then get replaced. Note that I say sucks more than scummy, but I hate that kind of attitude.

I've asked to be replaced. Our Mod said that he should have no problem finding a replacement.

I

want

to play in this game, but I just haven't been

able

to. My apologies to all of you, I've always hated it when other people got replaced.