Mini 482: Shrek Mafia - Game Over

[Mexal]

I'm going to read the thread now. I'll post some thoughts in a little while.

[Mexal]

Good lord was that a long and tedious read. As DR pointed out, the entire 9 pages was mostly focused on Grek and Ben. My head hurts from reading all of that.

Initial thoughts are that both Mirth and Grek are pro-town. I don't like Mirth focusing on Grek but I play the same way. If I see something I don't like, I argue it til it's dead. Grek's plan was inherently flawed but I don't believe that's a sign of being scum. I think his answers, while also flawed, were what I would expect from someone who actually believed his plan could succeed. That being said, I'm not going to VPI (very probable innocent...see note at the bottom of my post) them by any means and anything they can or say will be used against them.

I whole heartedly agree with inHim. I hate day 1s and I think that if we spend so much time over analyzing everything, we're going to miss the point. Day 1 is for gathering information and getting thoughts on the board then following through with a lynch so we can gain more information for day 2. A lot of people don't have the ability to notice suspicious things without having something to connect them with (ie: someone completely changing their opinion on day 2 because they were distancing themself on day 1). That being said, I'm all for a lynch and moving on and I think it's detrimental to the game to spend countless days and hours (it's been a month) on day 1. No progression bores people and it doesn't get us anywhere.

The actions of ben, while suspicious, seem (according to be mirth) to be normal. I don't truly buy DR's excuse that he possibly wanted to survive because the simpler answer is he's a terrible player. The actions were scummy and personally, I think they were worthy of a day 1 lynch if only to use the information from the lynch to better ouselves for day 2. But, I think we should give DR a chance to play mainly because I believe Ben was just a bad player.

Now, as for suspicions, Jex and Adam are rubbing me the wrong way. I don't really know why as my head is still hurting from reading this thread, but gut is telling me to go back and look at them. So that's what I'll do when I get a chance.

I will

unvote

until I have a better handle on where everything stands.

Note:

I play on a different site (Westeros) 95% of the time I play Mafia. On that site, day deadlines are 24-32 hours and nights are 8 hours max. That being said, I am very active and I can be impatient. I will use different terminology at times and am in the process of trying to integrate MS terms into my vocabulary for when I play here. I make this disclaimer now for the sole purpose of getting it out of the way because it will be questioned later. But if you have any other questions about me, my playstyle or anything I say, feel free to ask. This isn't meant to curb discussion on it, just warn everyone.

[Mexal]

I just reread Adam the Amazing and Jex and nothing truly stood out to me. I don't know where my negative vibes were coming from. They seemed very agreeable to most things in my first read so maybe that's where I was being caught up. On the other side, they both unvoted at the end of their last post because they were unsure who to vote instead of continuing on a lynch of Grek. The whole action seems more pro-town to me than not so for now, they don't bother me.

Pug89 is going to be next on my reread list. So I'll post some thoughts on him when I get some time.

[Mexal]

1. I don't know which is why I'm doing rereads of certain people and posting thoughts as I have them. Wading through the first 10 pages took me almost 2 hours to do without any real time to reflect on it. So I'm playing catch up.

2. My predecessor found fault with Ben which I understand. Other than that, he didn't contribute all that much which is why I'm assuming he was replaced. I hope to rectify that.

[Mexal]

Alright.

I just did a reread of Pug89 and I must say, I'm not impressed at all. Every single post that Pug89 wrote has already been written up by one or more people before him (read his posts, there are only 8 of them). Maybe part of the reason he's doing that is because he's busy and doesn't have time to post or maybe it's because he cannot come up with a case on anyone else so it's easier to just repeat what everyone else has said.

The progression goes from Grek to Ben to Inhim and back to Grek, which is almost exactly how the day has gone thus far. Out of all the people, I find his utter lack of contribution to be the most suspicious thus far.

So because of that, my vote will go on him for the time being.

Vote: Pug89

I'll try to read Nox a little later. But I'm getting the distinct feeling that I'm jumping into a game where no one is playing. And I don't like spending a lot of time if no one plans on participating.

[Mexal]

I happened to agree a lot with Mirth on the Grek issue. There were several times at the begginging of the game were I noticed something while reading and was going to post something about it to find that Mirth had already said the same thing; there's nothing I can do about that. The reason I only FOS'd ben is because my main suspicions are with Grek and a few people had mentioned that his play was similar in other games and so didn't necessarily indicate he was scum.

Ok. So you agree with what most people say yet you play off the thoughts as your own. They are not. If you agree, you say you agree then you go looking at other people. But you don't. You focus on the people that others focus on without truly looking yourself. We call those people parrots.

So lets hear some thoughts. What do you think of Zindaras? DR? DG? HC? Jex? Nox? How about thoughts on people who are NOT under direct suspicion of others. You don't have to post about all of them but at least make an attempt to contribute some original thoughts to the discussion.

[Mexal]

Jex, I was actually asking Pug89, not you but thanks for answering anyway

[Mexal]

I didn't realize that we were going to start doing a PBPA on everyone. I find it interesting that Grek randomly started doing a PBPA after Haschel started doing them. I also don't like that Grek decided to do a PBPA on delicious right after I brought her up as a suspect. He seems to send his attention wherever he thinks he can sway the most votes, and delicious is his new target.

I forget who pointed it out as I just did a quick read-through of the last posts, but I agree that Zin is kinda sketch with posting everywhere else but not in this game. I'll do a reread of him and a few other players that I haven't really looked at a little later today.

As for mexel's question, I still find HC pretty protown. However, I would like to hear more from him besides PBPAs.

Delicious I don't really know what to think of yet. I've played with her in past games and she acts similar to what she is now. I also know that's she's really busy. I've been an RA...the first month sucks

Jex is me, so I'll leave that up to other people to analyze.

Zin and DR I'll do a read-through of later on in the day.

Now I'm off to set up utilities for my house...more money to spend...woot

I don't believe Grek's pbpa to be all that suspicious. I mean, when I brought up Pug89 as a suspect, you immediately went back and reread him. What's so suspicious about Grek doing the same thing to DG? Seems hypocritical to criticize Grek for doing the exact thing you did, albeit in a different fashion.

[Mexal]

We've be over this already. If Nox was scum, she would either get lynched(a good thing for the town) or not get lynched(we would gain nothing and losr nothing).

I don't really want to get into this again but I did want to comment on this one statement.

If Nox is scum, the town wouldn't know until after the lynch because Nox had said 2 things at that point. So it would have been a random lynch. It was highly unlikely that scum was going to sacrifice one of their own in a random lynch. So the only real likelyhood that your plan would work (although I think it was inherently flawed and never would have worked) is if Nox was town and the scum were idiots.

On a completely separate note, what do you think of Pug89?

[Mexal]

Why exactly are you voting for Mirth? I just skimmed through your post really quickly so I might of missed something, but I didn't see anything indicating why you voted for Mirth.

I do dislike when I'm being ignored after I ask direct questions. It makes me think you're hiding something.

[Mexal]

Mod, can we get a vote count please?

[Mexal]

By all means claim if you think claiming will help the townies. Then we'll see if there is a counter claim and go from there.

[Mexal]

I sure do hate when people claim doctors. The threat of a healer gets taken out of the equation and that sucks for when the finder reveals.

[Mexal]

unvote

I don't really know where I want to vote atm. I'll place a vote in a little while. I will say though that it won't be for inHim as he's been requesting replacement in all his games for quite some time.

[Mexal]

Well, upon seeing the NK, my first thought was Goldfish. So for now, that's where I'm going to be looking. Obvious, yes, but scum tend to keep things simple. WIFOM is a great tool but I don't believe it right now.

[Mexal]

Why me? I didn't have anything against Jex. She may have had a vote against me but she, for the most part had defended me. And rightly so.

In fact, I'm sad Jex is dead... She is someone I know in real life and I definitely enjoy playing online mafia with her.

It was a good set-up by the Mafia/SK, whoever killed her, as she was the only one who had a vote on me, someone who was under some suspicion at the end of the day. Yes, I could be playing the WIFOM game but.... Quite frankly, I am not using it now and I tend not to use that ever.

You're right. I only really looked at the vote. I haven't gone back and reread Jex yet. Ignore what I said since it was rather premature and it's been awhile since I've read her over.

[Mexal]

One of my meta-tells is that the first one who uses the NK target to accuse someone is, himself, scum.

My suspicion falls on the people who lynched Grek yesterday: Glork and Pug. Also:

unvote

I don't really know where I want to vote atm. I'll place a vote in a little while. I will say though that it won't be for inHim as he's been requesting replacement in all his games for quite some time.

Hi. Your failure to vote looks very scummy.

I also happened to be the first person to post. So while you might think it's scummy, it's simple deduction and generally the truth. If I was really trying to set someone up, I highly doubt I'd be so damn obvious about it, but that's just WIFOM. I'll just have to trust that eventually you'll see that I'm smarter than you take me for. But by all means, find me suspicious. I enjoy the attention.

As for not voting, yes it makes me look scummy. I didn't realize when the deadline was. For some reason I thought it was 4:00pm and I was in 4 other games, one where I was the SK on another site with 28 hour deadlines. Simple fact is, I missed it but then again, so did 5 other people. Definitely something that can get me lynched but something I'm not surprised you looked at.

[Mexal]

EBWOP: 4 other people. Sorry, I was one of the 5.

[Mexal]

Your entire argument was WIFOM. It doesn't matter that you were the first one to post at all, good townies avoid this line of thought.

I did a quick skim back to see whose late actions were suspicious. That would be you and Mirth.

Failure to act is as bad, or even worse, than acting wrongly.

I believe I clearly said that it was WIFOM in my post.

It's nice to know that we have different train of thoughts. So let me get this straight, you never think about the night kill and how it relates to the game? Or do you only think about it but refrain from posting about it? Chalk it up to different playstyles then. I've played enough games to understand that the night kill almost ALWAYS means something. It might not come to fruition til later in the game but when you look back, you'll almost always see some connection to the scum. The scum don't just sit in their little forum and go "hey, lets just use random.org and pick our NK victim." So if you really want to find me suspicious for that reasoning, by all means go ahead. As I said, I relish the attention.

Like I said in my last post, there were reasons for my actions. I just didn't have time and I was under the impression the deadline was later. When I came back, it had passed. So be it. It is what it is. You can believe it or not if you want. It makes no sense for me to avoid a lynch as scum if someone gets lynched regardless if they have majority or not, even more so considering the person lynched was town. Again, WIFOM but your whole argument is meta related and it's impossible to argue against that without venturing into WIFOM territory. So if you want to bring up something more substantial, I'll be more than happy to discuss it with you but in an effort to avoid WIFOM, I'll stay away from the meta comments.

[Mexal]

One more thing. I hope this rings your meta-tells as well.

Why didn't the scum kill Pug? He claimed healer so it doesn't make sense not to kill him unless of course they feel like they can get him lynched pretty easily today. Uh oh, WIFOM!

Regardless, these thoughts need to voiced by someone and since I already run up on Zindaras' meta-tell scum radar, I mind as well be the one to do it.

[Mexal]

EBWOP: That was supposed to be "rung" up on. I really should preview on here since I can't edit.

[Mexal]

Why didn't the scum kill Pug? He claimed healer so it doesn't make sense not to kill him unless of course they feel like they can get him lynched pretty easily today. Uh oh, WIFOM!

In general, scum will kill the claimed Doc. This is more of a realistic thought (and it should actually have been on my list of thoughts, since it crossed my mind a bit) than killing for suspicions. Why? Because it's not pure WIFOM. WIFOM implies an equal choice: the glasses of wine are exactly the same. Not killing a claimed Doc isn't true WIFOM anymore.

True to an extent. The point I was getting at is there are a multiple of ways one could look at any given situation. The most obvious choice generally is the correct choice, hence the same with the Pug situation, which is why I always take a gander at who was killed and the possible reasons behind it. I don't always formulate suspicions and opinions based on it but it's where I generally start my investigation. I won't change my playstyle because it's a meta-tell. It is what it is.

Avoiding the lynch is a scumtell. Scum don't like to responsible for someone's death. They don't want to be the ones casting deciding votes, they don't want to be the ones in the spotlight.

Town always want to cast votes.

Completely understandable, but this generally applies to going to night. I had voted originally and I was more than fine lynching someone. Actually I had voted for a long time. On top of that, I made the case against Pug and when he claimed healer, I unvoted. The fact I didn't revote was mainly because of the reasons I had already stated. But there is also the idea that no one was really pushing another lynch so there wasn't a quick way to go about it. I didn't agree with the inHim lynch and I didn't know what the Goldfish lynch was based on. So in the limited time I was affording this game, I didn't know what to do, which is as I believe it, what I stated.

I appreciate you posting what you thought because some of those things crossed my mind too. The point I'm trying to make though, is they don't cross everyone's and putting them out there truly doesn't hurt the town. It gives people something to think about and depending on how their brain works, it might prove to be beneficial.

[Mexal]

Replacing. I had this reaaaalllly long PBP analysis on EVERYONE!

But I won't do it now as I realised that it would be too long and somethings seem really off now that I reread it.

So yeah, I'm replacing ATA, Scum list is def fucked up in my mind atm, though I'm seeing Goldfish as town (gut feelin mostly)

I'm confused. You wrote up a PBP of everyone then you deleted it and decided not to post?

I, for one, like long posts so feel free to post it for my benefit

[Mexal]

I'd prefer it if you did post it, Faerie. It can only help us, really. At least post a short summary of your thoughts regarding all the other players.

As far as Mexal goes, I can't really continue arguing with someone who seems to want to agree with me. But I've got my eye on you, Mexy.

Good stuff

[Mexal]

Mexal: I'm Incredibly shocked that your first post was what it was. My list of first posts is severly different to yours. In fact my first thoughts were a modified Zindaras':


Now. About the SK. I can clearly see one here. And pugdoc blocked it.

So my question to the claimed doc is: Who did you protect?

That's completely fine with me. I'm always thinking, what would scum do, how does this benefit scum, ect. That's how my mind works. I've been told before that I overanalyze things and I know that's true. But it's really hard to turn it off sometimes. So as a result, you get things like my first post. Expect it because it'll come often. You guys have never played with me before so you don't know what I'll do, but soon you will

[Mexal]

Using nightkills to draw any conclusions is an extremely dangerous business. And this wasn't even a WIFOM-decision anymore: the choices (killing doc, not killing doc) weren't equal.

You're right. It's an incredibly dangerous business but it's a place to start. If I look into Goldfish and decide that nothing she has said really bothers me, then problem solved. If I find things I don't like and I add the night kill to it, then it's someone to put pressure on. If I don't like her response to the pressure, then it's someone to seriously look at as scum. If I'm wrong and she turns out as town, then that leads to another place to look. I understand exactly what you're getting at and I agree with you to an extent. But there are several different ways to go about it and remember, not all of us are newbies. While a situation might happen in a newbie game, lets trust the fact that the situation might not happen when you have more experienced players. I've seen analyzation of night kills both be a positive and negative thing. I tend to trust myself so I'm not all that worried. But as I said, it's a place to get started just as pressuring Pug is another place to get started.

[Mexal]

Anyway, this is a pointless argument by both sides. If you don't agree with the conclusions I draw based on my reread (which I haven't done yet) then just simply say so. I'll start looking at one avenue, you can start looking at another. Hopefully we'll arrive at scum

[Mexal]

You think that the information from a complete WIFOM train of thought, based on motivations we don't know is more relevant than the information of 15 pages of thread ending in a three-way tie?

No, Mirth, this is not the place to start out.

IT IS a place to start because it starts the focus. 15 pages of information is absolutely wonderful but spending an hour and half doing a full reread without any kind of focus tends to be rather pointless. I like having people to look at. I like looking through their interactions and trying to determine where they stand. To just look at everything with a broad stroke tends to lead to inadequate cases and to be honest, that's not something I plan to do. So if I want to focus my first reread on Goldfish because of the NK, so be it. If you don't agree with the conclusions I draw, then say so. But you're setting me up rather quickly as scum for looking at Goldfish when I haven't even done so yet. I don't like how your argument is an attempt to completely invalidate any conclusions I draw BEFORE I draw them. Pushing this line of thinking isn't really productive to anyone unless your attempt is as I outlined above. You can call me scum, but you have no substantial basis behind it except for a meta related tell that you believe is associated with all scum.

As for pressure, please pressure me. I'm not uncomfortable with it, I love it. The problem is, your pressure consists of nothing. It's an argument based on playstyles, not based on substantial evidence of being scum. So if you want to pressure me, go through my posts and make a case. Otherwise, you're just wasting my time unless of course you're doing as I said above.

The great thing about meta tells is that they're your own tells. They're something you keep close to your breast and use it as a jumping off point to focus on a person. They are NOT used as the basis of an argument which is exactly what you're doing. So again, I ask myself, why would you bring this up instead of doing a reread? Why point this out like it's clear proof that I'm scum? And at the moment, I'm not liking the answers.

[Mexal]

We had a three-way tie yesterday. Ties are the most information-rich lynches you can think of. If you want to see who you have to focus on, the lynch is the best place to start. inHim and Pug were, whatever else you want to say about them, responsible for Grek's death (I'd put the blame with some other players as well, through inaction, but that's not relevant right now). Is the logical place to start not with the people who killed town? Look at their motivations, at their reasons, at their behaviour? You can use this logic on other things as well: look at the wagons in the game and look at the people on them.

Then look at the trains. I'm not stopping you from finding your own scum. If you want to try to destroy my playstyle, please do this after I've posted my conclusions. Thanks.

This is a completely over-the-top reaction. Where did I say you were scum, that you deserved to be lynched? I didn't FoS you, I didn't vote you. All I did was pressure you. All I said is "I've got my eye on you". And, last time I checked, my looks didn't kill.

Over the top? It's funny that the ONLY thing you took from that paragraph was the fact that I said you were setting me up as scum. The point of that quote wasn't the fact that you were setting me up (and by setting me up doesn't necessarily mean you have to call me scum. You can make an argument then let others draw the conclusion you want them to draw. Yes, I know how to play this game too) but the fact that you were trying to invalidate my conclusions BEFORE they were drawn based on my method of deciding who I wanted to look at first. You're attacking my playstyle and at the same time keeping me from looking at Goldfish. Interesting.

You are using a flawed and scummy playstyle

That's your opinion. I tend to think differently and since you haven't played with me before, I'd appreciate if you stop trying to meta-game me.

Yeah, why would you bring that up instead of doing a reread?

(Oh, yes, I am aware that's not the intention of your post, but it is still a good question)

I'm not saying you're scum, again. And I'm very much amused that you say that I should do a reread when you don't want to do one yourself.

When you jump from one conclusion to the next, do you ever fill in the gap with evidence? Because I never stated I didn't want to do a reread. I said I don't believe in doing COMPLETE rereads of the thread. I approach this by looking at individuals, rereading their posts then rereading the posts surrounding their posts. I'm sorry if it's not your playstyle but it is unfortunately mine and you're unfortunately going to have to put up with it.

You attacked Goldfish. Your train of thought was completely ridiculous. There is no reason to think that the scum killed Jex based on her interaction with Goldy. None whatsoever.

I attacked you for using flawed logic to accuse someone of being scum.

Note the differences. I attack you for something which is relevant. Your attack relates to what would be better called a subgame. A subgame with imperfect and incomplete information.

Well, upon seeing the NK, my first thought was Goldfish. So for now, that's where I'm going to be looking. Obvious, yes, but scum tend to keep things simple. WIFOM is a great tool but I don't believe it right now.

This is my unbelievably flawed attack based on my horrible way of thinking.

You know what's funny about this? I never FOSed her. I never called her scum. I never even suggested she was scum. I simply said my first thought was Goldfish and it's where I would be looking. I then justified that thought with my line of thinking. At no point did I ever attack her. Yet you come at me like a whirlwind proclaiming I violated your scum meta-tell. At the same time, you take a single line in one of my paragraphs and attribute it to me assuming you were calling me scum. Does anyone else see the contradiction there?

When I attack someone, you will know it. To think that was an attack just shows how ridiculous your entire meta argument is because you do not know me.

[Mexal]

We had a three-way tie yesterday. Ties are the most information-rich lynches you can think of. If you want to see who you have to focus on, the lynch is the best place to start. inHim and Pug were, whatever else you want to say about them, responsible for Grek's death (I'd put the blame with some other players as well, through inaction, but that's not relevant right now).

I just reread this and a bunch of things popped out at me that I missed the first time.

Your first focus is on the Grek lynch. The problem with that is there was a tie and Grek was chosen. How do we know who was going to be chosen? inHim made his vote on August 16th and he's been gone from this game since August 27th. Today is September 18th. Do you really think you're going to get a ton of information off of inHim? Now you also mention Pug's vote, which makes sense to mention. You can go ahead and pressure him if you want.

Another thing that I thought of is the fact that you were attacking Mirth and I for not voting. Our actions were considered the most suspicious right? Why didn't you attack Goldfish though? So now we have you attacking Mirth and I based on reasons that you're not applying to everyone at the same time as you're trying to cast suspicion on me for even looking at Goldfish. Had you tried to invalidate my conclusions after I drew them (should they even point to scum) then that's one thing. I expect innocents to do that at times. But the fact that you're derailing me before I even start and attacking me based on an action yet ignoring the person you're derailing me from makes me think that you're protecting her.

The next logical step is why are you protecting her. I was hoping you could answer that question.

[Mexal]

Zindaras, this is why I love this game. I love catching scum. You made a huge mistake jumping on me for no reason. I had no plans of even looking at you but since you decided to try to deflect attention away from Goldfish, I started to wonder why. Doing a reread is a wonderful thing. There are quite a few interesting things in it. Ready?

Rereading the game, the first thing that catches my eye is Pug's 10. Interesting there is the lack of random vote. In Post 14, inHim votes Grek for his random vote. Rather silly, that. The hypocrisy in inHim's 22 has already been pointed out. I personally find inHim scummier there than Grek, even if Grek casted a later vote. inHim actually makes it clear that he's voting Nox for the third vote, while I find Grek's explanation for his move acceptable if deluded. Rating initial reactions (on gut, mainly):

Mirth (24): +/-
Haschel (25): +
Adam (27): -
Pug89 (29): -
Jex (30): +
camisade (32): Eh, iffy. Slightly -

I think Mirth is very much right in her debate with Grek. However, I find his explanation believable enough that I don't think it warrants a lynch (He's not right in his suggestion that 2 scum would pile on the townie to kill him, but I can believe he would think that). ben's 37 still looks horrible. I like Pug's 39. I really like Haschel's 44, if only because it expresses the same feelings as I have, reading this thread. Same feelings regarding Jex.

Adam The Amazing wrote:
But if that's the case, then they're distancing so hard...


Some people like hard distancing. I wouldn't say anything about this, especially if you don't know the people in question.

Mirth's 54 is rather weak. I don't see the point in denying distancing. Mirth doesn't find inHim's vote any more suspicion than Nox's or Jex's. However, Nox and Jex made it clear their votes were jokes (Care Bear discussion). inHim's vote was deadly serious. A third vote is also Lynch-4. Not even halfway, there. A fourth vote is Lynch-3, already a lot closer. In theory, a 3-player scumgroup could pile on at that point, making that move more dangerous. Minor defence of ben by Mirth in 63.

benhalkum wrote:
You think without a shadow of a doubt Mirth is Town, then tell me. I'll go with my fellow good guys


Another horrible post, in my opinion. Acts like a sheep, with an appeal to emotion.

We get a bit of a benwagon, in 76-78, with Haschel, Adam and Goldy expressing suspicion in Votes or FoSes.

More later.

Goldy is mentioned once in this post and it's just a minor mention of a vote.

Continuing my earlier analysis.

Grek leans heavily towards ben being scum (85). Good post by Jex (87). Ben makes a horrible post (92). Jester suggestion by Grek (93), not sure how much I like that. Ben says his vote was random (99), which I believed it was quite clearly not. Odd suggestion of breadcrumbing by Mirth (105). Nox suggests distancing between Mirth and Grek (108), and I have to say I can't see it. Odd suggestion. I still think Mirth's reaction to my question (109 and following) is odd. Reasonably good PbPA by Haschel (113). Haschel's second PbPA (121) is worse, in my opinion. His PbPA is clearly from a pro-Grek point of view, and that's not a good thing. Another strange post by ben (135). InHim wagons Grek (141). I still don't like this post. Ben defends inHim (145), in another post I find really weird. Ben's ignored most other posters, but now he suddenly has input to give. Hophop, Mirth onto inHim (146), also calling out ben. Ben quickly responds, also switching his vote (147). A very scummy post indeed. Mirth notes this (149). Another post that jumps out as scummy to me from inHim (162). Haschel (174) and Adam (175) are waiting for Apo.

More later. My personal suspicions at this moment lie with inHim and ben.

More rereading and still no Goldy.

Continuing from my earlier analysis. I find inHim's 176 suspicious. You can say what kind of vibes (town or scum) you've gotten, you can say where you got them from, there is nothing wrong with Grek's post here. I like Grek's interaction with inHim here and I think inHim's reaction is very scummy. I see some implicit defense of inHim by Mirth, don't like that. Riki's entry into the game is very solid, that takes away some of my doubts regarding ben (though I personally disagree with his analysis of ben's playstyle). I think Mirth is being overdefensive here and avoiding Riki's questions. The statistical analysis is completely irrelevant. Mirth pulls the same kind of trick here as she did when I asked her about Grek. She really avoids giving an answer. Seeing the massive amount of debate and aggression from Mirth regarding Grek, and her answer here is odd to say the least. She also completely avoids the LoE question and really doesn't help with opinions on other people. Noting responses to Riki's questions regarding Grek:

-Adam: Grek was wrong. No alignment read, unless I'm missing something. - for that. (213)
-Haschel: Misguided but Town (214). Eh, this links back to Haschel's earlier analysis on Grek/Mirth. I guess there's a small + for being consistent in his opinions.
-Jex: Scummy. I don't really like how she keeps her options open on this one, so a -. (218)
-Pug89: Scum. I think Pug is focusing too much on Grek's early play here, so a -. (223)
-Mexal: Town. Eh, the entirety of this post doesn't give me any good vibes, but not horrible ones either. So +/-. (226)

I like Mexal's 230 more, as I find myself agreeing with his points against Pug. Jex's 231 gives me good vibes. She's branching out and looking at people that weren't looked at by others. We finally get some opinions from Mirth in 237, but they all boil down to nothing, really. Some very minor things, that's it. Things I think necessitate a response from Haschel's PbPA.

Haschel Cedricson wrote:
Sixth Post: Here I have a slight disagreement on Mafia doctrine with Zindy: I'm not convinced that all first-day votes need an explanation. In fact, particularly on Day One, explaining a vote can defeat the purpose of pressuring. As for the jester, I'm not convinced we have one, but if what Zindaras says about our mod is true, then I suppose we can consider it. Briefly.


If I vote someone for pressure and am asked to explain that vote, I will say pressure. That's an explanation. It doesn't necessarily have to come with the vote, but an explanation is necesssary if asked for. That way, town can pressure, but scum can't get away with easy votes.

Quote:
Seventh Post: The thumbscrews are off of ben and are now subtlely being applied to Mirth. However, he states that Quote:
Your Grek case is nice.
even though he has been pasking Mirth about it. If he already understands the case, I'm not sure what the point of his questions were. I agree with his conclusion about Grek, but, we already knew that.


I think the underestimating was not a sufficient reason to vote Grek, or at least at that point (and I didn't even see it as much of a scumtell to begin with). So I wanted to hear more from Mirth and see if she had anything else.

Mirth's logic was good, but that doesn't mean her conclusions are necessarily good as well. After all, Mafia isn't rocket science. This isn't mathematics or game theory, with expected utility and function-maximizing.

Quote:
Nineth Post:


Complete aside, but it's ninth.

Gotta go home now, more later. My suspicion on ben has gotten a lot less, inHim's still there, Mirth, Pug and Adam are also giving me slightly scummy vibes. Haschel, Jex, Riki and Grek are giving me good vibes, to some degree.[/dice]

And finally, we have EVEN MORE rereading and guess what, still no Goldy. I've noticed that in all of your posts this entire game, you might have mentioned Goldfish maybe twice and it's in passing. Not once have you asked her a question or even so much as thrown out a random comment in her direction.

That's rather interesting isn't it? It's also interesting that your two main suspects at the time, Ben and inHim, were also Goldy's main suspects. I guess great minds think alike right?

I even went back and reread through Goldy's posts to see if there was any kind of interaction with Zindaras. There wasn't a single even mention of him. In a month and a half, they felt absolutely no need to comment on each other.

While I know this isn't conclusive proof of anything, I find it rather interesting, especially in conjunction with the fact that Zindaras tried awfully hard to keep me away from looking at Goldfish.

Vote: Zindaras

Btw, this is an attack on you in case you were unsure. Just thought you should know

[Mexal]

Mexal, I'd like to throw the following out for you to consider: while I'm not enjoying Zindaras's playing, perhaps the reason there aren't any comments on Goldfish, because, apart from early posts about Ben and Inhim, the rest of Goldfish's not very numerous posts, are in response to people being suspicious of her and rather OMGUSy in a not particularly informative way.

Now then, I really would like to hear from Haschel. On top of a question I threw out to him earlier, I'd like to ask him why he thinks I'm voting him.

I understand that Mirth but it's a combination everything surrounding him and Goldfish that is making me very very suspicious.

Instead of attacking my conclusions, he attacks me before I could draw any conclusions. In the process, he's deflecting me away from Goldfish. He misrepresented my words twice, once when he told me I was calling her scum and the second time when he said I claimed he was calling me scum. He's trying to twist this entire argument around and it's failing miserably. Then you add in the fact that they had similar suspects and neither of them felt the need to even mention each other except very rarely in passing (though Goldfish didn't even do that). On top of that, you have Zindaras doing a COMPLETE reread which includes a section where Goldfish even gets some heat yet he still doesn't put a single mention of her in that reread while at the same time he talks about every other player in this game. Doesn't that seem rather strange to you?

We could even go further and say his insistence that inHim was scum based on 5 posts, the last of which was 3 weeks ago seems like a rather easy thing to do considering inHim couldn't even defend himself.

I haven't even gotten to analyzing his individual posts yet. I was looking for specific things when I did my quick reread. That'll come when I get to it.

[Mexal]

Conclusions that come from inherently flawed logic are inherently flawed themselves.

If I had based my entire case around the night kill and said Goldfish was scum because of that, then maybe you would have a point. But if I don't even use that as a basis for my conclusions, then your logic is flawed along with your attack. The fact that you attacked me before I even formulated any opinions says to me you don't want me to formulate opinions on the specific person. You made the assumption that my case would be based on the night kill which gave you an easy way to try to invalidate any conclusions I made before they were made. Now should I make any conclusions, even if they have absolutely nothing to do with the night kill, you will have already clouded people's judgement. It's a smooth tactic but I'm not impressed.

I'm attacking your playstyle because it's flawed. And how am I keeping you from looking at Goldfish? What's keeping you back?

That's a matter of opinion.

You're keeping me from looking at Goldfish by constantly arguing with me over how I choose a focal point. You're trying to invalidate (I sound like a broken record because you keep asking questions I've already posted about) my conclusions before any of have been made. As a result, you're protecting Goldfish.

So because I don't know you, you can chalk everything up to playstyle and then say that I can't possibly think you're scum because of it?

I don't need to chalk everything up to playstyle. It's perfectly clear how I play. You said I attacked Goldfish, I didn't.

I basically asked you the same thing to point out how flawed your question was.

Still don't get this.

You said "This is where I'll be looking". Which implies suspicion, or at the very least, focus. Focusing on someone with a flawed argument is a flawed focus. Focusing on weird or wrong people is a scumtell.

Does the fact that Jex died have any influence at all on Goldy's perceived alignment?

You quoted exactly what I said and I meant every word. I tend to do that. I didn't say, this is where my suspicions lie. I didn't say, I find Goldfish suspicious because Jex died. I said this is where I'm looking for now. Yes, it implies focus and that's the whole damn idea of this game. You focus on people, reread them and discover if they're suspicious or not. It doesn't matter how you arrive to the point of focusing on a person. What matters is the conclusions you draw and how you back up those conclusions with evidence. If my conclusion was that Goldfish is scum because Jex died then you have ever right to trash it, but if you start claiming that my conclusion isn't valid before I even make a conclusion because you don't like why I even started looking in the first place, it looks like you're protecting her. And again, the next logical step after you assertain that is why are you protecting her.

I have no idea if Jex's death has anything to do with Goldfish. I've been so busy arguing with you I haven't done a real reread of Jex or Goldfish to assertain if it's likely she was scared of her. Because you prematurely jumped on me to distract me from doing that, I have no clue.

It is a coincidence that the people I am focusing on happen to be the ones on the Grek lynch. Yesterday, I was suspicious of these two, and I still am today.

Yes, one is a claimed healer and the other hasn't posted in 3 weeks. Great! You're right on target.

I'm attacking you.

Yes you are, yet at the same time, you're defending her.

First off, this assumes I'm a bloody idiot who doesn't know the meaning of the word "bussing". Secondly, and most importantly, this is completely backwards reasoning. "Goldfish is scum, so Zindaras is scum." Seeing how your "case" depends completely on Goldy being scum, you must first prove Goldy is scum, something you haven't even tried to do.

I'm a bloody idiot because I don't know what the meaning of the word "bussing" is. And yes, my case depends completely on Goldy being scum. The reason I haven't tried to do that yet is because I'm too busy arguing with you over the fact that my focusing on Goldy based on the night kill does NOT invalidate any conclusions I might draw from a reread of her.

[Mexal]

I'm just getting myself all riled up over this and I have a hard time shutting off.

I've posted what I wanted to say on this subject. I'll move on to another. If people see what I'm saying, great. If not, maybe I'm wrong. It looks suspicious to me and I think it warrants attention but Zindaras is right in saying my case is flawed since I'm basing his guilt on Goldy's. As such, just note that I pointed all this out and should one of them turn out guilty, this will be a place to start.

As I said before, I'll do a reread later of Goldy and see if anything pops out.

[Mexal]

On Mexal and Zindaras: I think part of Zindaras's reasoning is flawed, as it is, in fact, based on assumptions of what the best course of action is based in playstyle, but I don't see anything glaring suspicious about it. It's just a case of "to each his own."

I don't, however, see why Mexal just can't drop the argument and look at Goldfish's posts (there really aren't tht many. And for the record, they don't amount to very much either.) Especially since Zindaras isn't actually defending Goldfish, just arguing about the basis of the suspicion. (There's an innate difference between defending someone and saying that the arguments against that person are weak. One is a defense of the person, one is an offense against poor judgement. Not the same thing, necessarily.)

As I said in my last post, I have a hard time shutting off. If someone comes at me, especially when I completely disagree with the reasoning, I fight back. I'm a defensive person by nature. Such is the way it is. Be happy I'm not going to continue this but be aware that it happened.

I'll get the reread done later this evening. I got some other things to attend to right this second.

[Mexal]

The Mod is to PM a player when they are roleblocked. I did indeed PM the Mod for this game and was informed that had I been roleblocked I would know about it.

The good part about my claim is that I have claimed the role with Princess Fiona and her martial arts skill and town aligned. A counter-claim right now would mean I might die, but they die the next day and it's a 1 for a 1 which.... is just a lame way to get a game moving. AND it leaves one less player for you guys to "worry" about... well... if you choose to believe me =)

I REALLY would like to hear a lot more about his block of Mirth. Seriously... Why?

I was going with a Lynch a Lurker basis, with his sketchy play in the beginning and refusal to show up and answer the many questions post at him.... and difficult questions too.

He was acting scummily in the beginning. And I go back to my scenario about the odds going towards the players even if they lynch incorrectly the first day. I was willing to risk InHim 1) because of his scummy play, he could become scum and 2) because he disappeared, tapered off, whichever... He was of no use and an extra lynch would set the town up for better odds in the morning.

And I am definitely in agreeance that NO MORE CLAIMS should come out right now. I am already in danger of an NK....

Unless we have two healers like this whole Pug/Mirth/InHim controversy. But my bet is Pug is lying.

My role out isn't too big of a deal... but another role would be a bad idea.

So let me get this straight.

You are claiming vig, and you're claiming that you tried to kill inHim, a guy who hasn't posted in 3 weeks. You're also claiming that if you were role blocked, you would have known about it, but since you got no PM, you weren't role blocked?

I'm so confused.

[Mexal]

I don't like the claim. What's the point of it? She wasn't under any pressure and she's just claiming she tried to vig someone and failed. It's worthless. I don't get it and I don't like it.

[Mexal]

Let me get this straight because I'm kinda unsure. A mason is just a partnered town member? Do they have any special powers?

[Mexal]

What's a bus driver?

[Mexal]

Oh, before I forget, I'm going to have to leave very soon (30 minutes) and won't be able to check the interwebs until this evening. (Sometime around 8 pm est) I figure I'll have a mountain to read with all this roleclaiming.

But back to what I didn't want to forget: If Glork is a mason, this makes me think either Goldfish or Mexal is scum based on probability of having at least one scum on the Nox bandwagon. Mexal, Goldfish, what say you both to this?

What do you want me to say? I'm not scum?

Don't tell me you want me to claim too

[Mexal]

As to Mexal or Goldfish, I'm not certain, I think it is most likely based on probability.

You didn't answer my question. What do you want me to say to your accusation?

[Mexal]

So EVEN if you think I am not the VIGILANTE, what in god's green earth makes people think Princess Fiona would be mafia aligned???

Those of you asking for me to tell y'all what my role is and does, go back to my claim. It's all in there.

I wasn't blocked because I did NOT receive a PM saying I was roleblocked. Online mafia usually goes that way... And, again, had you read my post, you would see that I had PMed the Mod asking that very question.

And Oman, why the frick do you have a vote on me??? Anti-town much?

So then why didn't Glork die? Are you saying that someone healed him?

And why did you claim?

[Mexal]

I claimed, as I said, because Pug's claim makes no sense according to my powers.

AND again, I was not roleblocked. I'll say it til I'm black n purple in the face... When roleblocked, the person being roleblocked receives a PM that their actions were roleblocked.

What possible reason could someone devise to heal inHim?

[Mexal]

Why did Pug decide to protect Mirth?


I am REALLLLLY suspecting that we have a Busdriver on our hands.

Why not? She didn't seem particularly scummy to me. I might have thrown her a heal had I been the doc.

[Mexal]

Mirth also wasn't exactly a likely target for the mafia. Maybe Pug is just a really crappy doctor?

Why wasn't sure a likely target?

And yes, I'd consider Pug a crappy doctor considering his day 1 play.

[Mexal]

EBWOP: I meant, why wasn't she a likely target?

[Mexal]

Mirth, how exactly can I defend myself when the move was made before I even entered the game? The vote was made by Camisade, not me, so I can't really make an argument based on his actions.

That being said, have I done anything else in your eyes to make you think I'm scum? If not, then your reasoning is poor. If so, please post it and I'll be more than happy to respond to it.

[Mexal]

Yes, my reasoning is poor. I'm grasping at straws here but I also don't completely discount people on lack of acting suspiciously. I don't suspect you enough to move my vote onto you at the moment, but I do suspect you. I'm not curious about camisade's move though (since camisade didn't wagon jump. He was voter number 2 after Goldfish), just your opinion of the probability of there being at least one scum on Nox's bandwagon. I'd like to hear what you think of that specifically.

To be honest, the probability would be pretty high. Considering the fact that you've pretty much eliminated everyone but myself and Goldfish and knowing that I, myself, am town, I'd have to say that would make Goldfish scum. Unfortunately, I can't truly base a vote off of just that alone. So where exactly does that leave us? Grasping at straws.

And damnit, I completely forgot about doing my reread on Goldfish. With all this claiming and me getting sidetracked earlier with Zindaras, I overlooked that reread. Blah! It'll have to wait til tomorrow when I get to work.

[Mexal]

Speaking of Goldfish, what do you think of her claim?

I don't like it. The reason being, it was completely unsolicited. It served no purpose at all. Why claim like that? Why now? I read her reasoning but it just didn't make sense. Is she trying to get a claimed doctor lynched? I don't know. Pug doesn't seem like the player that would really make up a claim. He just seems...inexperienced I guess. I don't think there is a busdriver and we know she wasn't roleblocked. So that leaves the only possible option being that someone healed inHim. Unfortunately, I find that very very unlikely, mainly because inHim hadn't posted in 3 weeks. He was an inactive. Who heals inactives? It makes very little sense. While I see you having a hard time believing Pug could heal you, I don't. I see you pro-town and had I been the doc, I would have healed you or Haschel. So to me, that's more believable then there being a doc out there who refuses to counter-claim (unless it was Jex) and healed an inactive who was under suspicion.

As for the other claims, I believe DR and Glork. I think they're both town.

[Mexal]

EBWOP^ I mean hard to fake. Sorry, brain not completely functional. Its one of those roles that probably does exist.

Maybe she is Princess Fiona, but maybe the role isn't what she claims it is. We can't expect all good names to be good roles and evil names to be evil roles. It would be too easy to just do a massclaim and end this game within a few days. I think the fact that she tried to push Fiona being good because the name was Fiona is suspicious.

[Mexal]

EBWOP:

I forgot about the Pug part of your question. Basically he seems inexperienced. You've seen his posts, his content. They just seem...not there. I don't know. Maybe he's making it up. Personally, I rather just lynch them both and see what comes up. This day has been packed full of information and a lynch + night actions will definitely provide a ton more. But I know how MS works and I know this will be drawn out for a long time.

[Mexal]

And yet the only people suspicious of Fiona, an undeniably good character in the movies, are you and Oman. Speaking of Oman, I'd like to throw this out there: Night one, Pug said he protected Nox/Oman. Now then, we don't know if Pug is a doctor or not. If Pug isn't a doctor, I'll be massively FOSing Oman, because as I've said multiple times before, Nox, having a bandwagon on her, didn't clear her of anything. Contentless play doesn't always mean inexperience though. Could be lurking. Who knows. I'm not making any descisions until he answers my question.

I'm throwing that idea out there. I didn't say it was foolproof but I don't think claiming Fiona clears her like you seem to think. And as I pointed out, the claim makes little sense to me. So meh.

[Mexal]

Oh, and one other thing, the people most convinced that I'm town are you and Oman. Also the people most convinced that Goldfish is lying. Coincidence?

Yup.

[Mexal]

And yet, here you are, perfectly alive. Any idea why?

Also Mexal, I'd like to point out Pug's join date in response to the inexperienced thing.

Speaking of Oman, Oman seems to know who "the real doc is." That implicatly means two things. 1. Oman doesn't think that Pug is the real doctor (and thus didn't protect Nox night one) and 2. This statement supports the idea that Glork was protected and Goldfish was not roleblocked.

Now then, if Goldfish was not roleblocked, that means that Goldfish, as strange as her claim is, is probably telling the truth. And yet, Oman suspects Goldfish. This puzzles me.

How does not being roleblock support her claim? I think being roleblocked would support it even further than not being roleblocked. If the action never took place, then there would be no roleblocking.

Also, I could care less about join dates. I joined in July 07 and I have more posts than he does when he joined, which was in 06. What does join date have to do with experience?

[Mexal]

He's had oppurtunity to play and see what's going on on the site. Some players also tend not to post much when they play. So I don't like writing him off as non-experienced.

You miss my reasoning here. I'm not talking about Goldfish's claim now (for that, go back a few pages.) I'm talking about Oman. Oman's comment about knowing who the real doctor is implies that Oman assumes that there is a doctor who isn't Pug and that that person protected Glork. Hence Glork being alive should mean that Goldfish wasn't roleblocked, which would make Goldfish's declaration true. If Goldfish isn't lying there is no reason to suspect her, yet Oman does. Does that make sense?

Just fyi, I wasn't basing my thoughts that he was experienced off the post count. The only reason I brought that up was to counter your argument that join date = experiences. My thoughts came from his actions.

Regardless, I think the best move is to lynch Pug. That way we'll find out a lot of information. First off, we'll have the votes. Second, we'll know if he's town or not. If he's town, he's most likely the doc and we can assume Goldfish's claim is pretty bogus, or at least look more directly into her. If Pug is scum, then we can believe Goldfish, at least more readily then right now and look more closely at Oman. Either way, I think we gain a lot from a lynch, more so from a Pug lynch than anyone else at the moment.

[Mexal]

EBWOP: I meant inexperienced, not experienced.

[Mexal]

I believe you much more than I believe Pug since I thought you were pro-town to begin with and I made the original case against Pug. And I do remember you constantly defending inHim.

That being said, lynch Pug. He got lucky day 1, mind as well finish him off day 2.

Vote: Pug

[Mexal]

Mexal, what do you think of Goldfish's claim now? And of Nox/Oman?

I believe you, therefore I'm leaning toward believing her. It makes sense. Though I know I would have never protected inHim.

I don't know what to think of Oman yet (it would have to require a reread). Pug saying he protected him night 1 leaves a clear path back to Oman though, especially if Pug is lying which it seems he was. I'm curious why Oman thinks Pug is lying and who exactly he seems to be protecting.

[Mexal]

I'm so confused.

[Mexal]

So just out of curiousity, who hasn't claimed? Me, Oman and Haschel?

[Mexal]

Wait: I have an idea.

We get role on lynch, but not on NK, right? I believe beyond all doubt 1 of the three claimed docs, and I believe another (that hasn't claimed) because of they way they're playing (very doc).

That leaves 2 unconfirmed docs out of 4 in my mind.

I think the lynch today is out of A) Pug B) Zindaras or C) Goldfish.

I believe Goldfish is a killrole. Whether SK or vig or scum is different. I can believe SK or vig before I can believe scum.

Pug is the shiftiest so far. And in my mind the best lynch.

Zindaras, who did you protect last night? Zindaras is another of the unconfirmed docs, and that puts her second to Pug in my mind.

Glork and DR are right out, as is Mirth. I'm really not happy Mirth has taken to quoting role PMs, really not happy, even just on principle.

My vote stands.

At this point, does it matter if you out someone? There are only 4 people by my count that hasn't claimed, you and I being 2 of them. That leaves only two people left. So, what exactly does it matter?

I said 3 people earlier but I went back to the list and forgot Faerielord.

So of your potential docs, the only people it could be would be Faerielord or Haschel. It's not hard to narrow it down some.

[Mexal]

I also still don't understand why you're so anti-Goldfish here.

OMGUS, and that strange earlier vig claim, Goldfish looks the second worse to me.

I don't really want to jump on these guys, as I feel they're both very protown, but could Glork and Riki be taking a gambit on this mason thing?

No, I don't think so.

I prefer lynching pug to lynching Goldfish, because pugs death will give us some insight into the other docs. I can see maybe 3 docs with 2-3 of them being town (not going to discount a scumdoc). Do we want to finish this massclaim or what? The only role I'm not sure of is Mexal's.

I don't know if there is a benefit for me to claim now. I'm not a doc so it's not like I can contest any of those other claims. If people really want me to claim, I will, but at this time, I don't think it's the right move.

[Mexal]

Alright, with so many doctors, I should claim as well. The reason being, I don't want to get NKed because I refused to claim and someone thought my role was worth hiding. With all these docs, I'm sure at least one of them can protect me.

Anyway, I am Pinocchio, and I am the cop. Camisade investigated inHim N1 which is why I believed Glork and refused to lynch him D1. I investigated Haschel N2 and he is town therefore I believe his claim.

[Mexal]

Now then, if at least two of the doctor claims are real, then we don't know who the night 1 target was. Which means that Glork and DR might not actually be cleared as town. Gosh darn it.

I am clearing Glork and DR. Glork is town and by extension, that makes DR town.

[Mexal]

Hmm I seem to have missed Mexals post. Oh well. Interesting claim. Mexal, why did you investigate Haschel and not Pug?

Because no one countered him day 1. I was going to leave the claim. I didn't expect there to be 3 other doc claims. I didn't want to waste my investigation on a non countered doc. I investigated Haschel for three reasons. 1. There were times he made long posts that really lead to no conclusions and that made me a little suspicious. 2. I found you pro-town and you found him pretty suspicious. 3. There were other times his posts were quite good and I wanted to know which side he was on so I knew which way to read the posts.

[Mexal]

Glork, if you call me 90% town, then you have to move Herschal to 90% town since I investigated him night 2 and he came up town. If you believe my claim, then you have to believe my claim that Herschal is town.

[Mexal]

*Shrug*

Godfathers exist.

Actually, that's a good point. I didn't even think about the Godfather role. Ignore what I said

[Mexal]

Why target Haschel N2?

I explained why already.

[Mexal]

Well.

I'm all for killing Oman. Everything everyone is saying points to scum. Plus, it'll get me to night so I can investigate someone else.

I'd love it if at least one of those pretty docs out there could heal me. Would hate to die Thanks!

Vote: Oman

[Mexal]

Mirth, I don't really think there is any question to my sanity, at least none that I've gathered.

As for a lynch, we need to lynch someone. It's either Pug or Oman and we should at least do it fairly soon. That way I can investigate someone tomorrow and figure out where we stand exactly.

One other thing to consider is that maybe people were given cover roles in order to make mass claiming a harder way to find the scum. I don't know how viable it is but it makes sense from what I've seen here on MS.

[Mexal]

Just lynch Oman, I'll investigate Pug and we'll go from there?

[Mexal]

DR, your preposition is actually entirely up to the cop, I have to say, since ultimately Mexal is the final word on who gets investigated. (I'm still not sure of Mexal's sanity though.)

I don't see what the issue is with my sanity? Why would there be any doubt to it? Are you saying you think Haschel and Glork are scum? Because both times they were investigated, they came up town.

Zindaras, I know, but I'm getting bored. We've stalled and I think the best option is to lynch Oman and let me investigate. I was thinking if I announced I'd investigate Pug, it'd get this game moving again.

DR, your suggestions have merit and I will take them into account. Lets see what happens when we lynch Oman though

[Mexal]

1- The issue with your sanity is due to your character. Pinnochio has a relation with lying that may influence the way your character works.
Insane cops are never informed they are insane, so unless if find someone guily there is a chance you are naive.

2- We have two investigative roles, so I think we could make the best use of them if we made sure they would clear different people.

3- If Oman turns scum, I think Pug would better be vigged than investigated. Your investigation would be better used on Faerie Lord.
If Oman turns town I would like to have Pug investigated rather than vigged.

True, he does, but he also is very obvious when he lies. His nose gets all big and everyone knows. So I don't really see the point of me lying, especially when I was told I was the most honest of the bunch. I guess it's possible, but I'm discounting it for now.

Your suggestions are sound, though I don't know if I'd investigate Faerie Lord. We'll see.

[Mexal]

I guess Mirth. I tend to look past those things since I've never really played a role that was insane before. It's never my first thought.

DR, I like your thoughts.

[Mexal]

Problem here, Haschel: scum will just kill Faerie or DG or one of the masons.

The scum are going to kill a town player. That's what scum does at night. We don't want to lose a doc and me. So we should play to that end.

[Mexal]

Ok.

Then vote

[Mexal]

I fail to understand how we've come to a decision yet we're willing to wait another week before we actually take care of it. At this point, we're not doing anything but putting off the inevitable. Why?

[Mexal]

I agree with DR. I don't like the idea that I might wake up dead when at this point, I'm the most important role. I don't like odds and probabilities and would much prefer a sure thing in this respect. If a townie dies, so be it, it's how it happens. Scum kills town at night but at least I'll be alive to give my information in the morning and that is much much more important to the town, at least in my opinion.

Or, just have Haschel heal me and then everyone else can do probabilities. I know Haschel is town, unless he's a Godfather in which case at least you'd know that?

[Mexal]

One thing I do need to know is if Goldfish plans on vigging anyone. I would hate to investigate someone who is getting vigged.

[Mexal]

I'll protect either Haschel or Glork.

I think Pug should protect either Dead Riki or me, and Mirth either Mexal or Faerielord. I think that's a good way to hedge our risks.

So basically, one of the tracking roles is potentially unprotected?

[Mexal]

Who am I missing?

My problem stems from the fact that Mirth would be protecting Faerielord and me in this scenario, both of which are investigative roles. That means, one of us is guarenteed to go unprotected with the odds very highly on Faerielord since a cop is more important. I don't like this set up and it seems contrived to give the odds that Faerielord will be an easy night kill.

[Mexal]

What about your opinions of everything else? (And I would like Mexal to state a clear target at least.)

The odds are only equal if you actually flip a coin. And if I die because of it, I'll be very upset.

As for who I'm investigating, most likely Zindaras.

[Mexal]

Guaranteeable Cop result? That's folly. For one, I'd put the chances of all the Docs being real, working docs at around 0. The odds of insanity, of roleblocking or even killing docs, are pretty high. Also, given the setup as it looks now (Masons with confirmed innocence, Docs, a Cop, a Tracker, a Vig), I think it would be naive to assume that our Cop is sane (unless Scope told Mexal that he's sane, which I don't know).

No lynching and following the cop are both strategies that make dangerous assumption

Because if he really

*IS*

a Doctor, then Mexal shouldn't die. The scums have no compelling reason to target Mexal whatsoever unless Pug is part of their scumgroup.

And if Pug is scum? If Pug is scum, no team is going to have problems with sacrificing him. He's likely to die regardless.

My sanity is not confirmed. I could be insane. Though if I am, blah. I hate bad information.

[Mexal]

You got an innocent on the masons, and I really don't see a mason gambit.

I know. I don't think I'm insane but the question is going to come up for the rest of the game due to the fact that it doesn't specifically say whether I am or not (of course, I've never had a role that did and I've never been insane so...).

[Mexal]

And a naive cop means what? That I just assume everyone is innocent?

[Mexal]

yep, exactly.

What a pointless role for the town.

I just don't ever see the point in taking a power role for the town and making it pro-scum because that's exactly what it'd do if I was insane/naive.

[Mexal]

yep, exactly.

What a pointless role for the town.

I just don't ever see the point in taking a power role for the town and making it pro-scum because that's exactly what it'd do if I was insane/naive.

In the case of an Insane Cop, this isn't true. Insane Cops do tend to have their use (once you know you're flipped, you can simply switch all your results around). For the other variations, it's balance.

So an insane cop follows a predictable pattern? IE: the results are switched?

If so, then it doesn't apply to this game. Glork turned out to be town, as confirmed by several people and that's the result I got. So if I'm insane, then that'd make him scum and I simply don't believe that, especially since his mason gambit happened before I released my results.

As for naive, possibly, but I doubt it. Once I get a guilty investigation, that discussion ends too. So I think this whole insane/naive thing talk isn't really necessary right now.

[Mexal]

It is, because Oman wants to No Lynch based on an assumption of your sanity.

He's wrong. Naive or not, there should always be a lynch. There is only one time that is beneficial to go to night without a lynch and this is not one of them.

[Mexal]

EBWOP: That way, the two almost-certain protown Doctors are protected.

If Oman isn't dead yet, NOBODY HAMMER PLEASE!! I want Zindaras to confirm protecting Mexal, and I want Pug to confirm protecting Haschel. I don't want any funny business going on around here.

You mean, you want Zindaras to confirm protecting Mirth not me

And I like this plan.

[Mexal]

One thing I don't get, Mexal: why are you fine with a 50/50 probability on you now and we're before, what with all the arguing about it?

I like the set up. I thought about it and it makes sense.

Why do you need a definitive investigation target from me?

[Mexal]

Because I don't completely trust you, Mexal. If you declare who you're investigating now, you can't wiggle out of it tomorrow. Unlike Faerie, you can't really be cross-confirmed. He can say he tracked someone, and that person can back up the action. (Granted, tomorrow, I'm going to ask that no one says what they until Faerie gives his tracking target, so that he doesn't have a convienant set up like today.) No one can cross-confirm you. So I'd like you to declare your target.

I also don't see why you like this set up more than Zindaras's. The only thing that changed is that Haschel is coinflipping you instead of me.

Which makes me wonder about you even more, honestly. Glork was already pretty much confirmed innocent when you claimed, so I'm not ruling out the possibility that you and Haschel are partners and you may have used Glork as validation for your claim.

The huge difference between Glork's suggestion and Zindaras is that Zindaras/Pug, the two people we find the most scummy at this point are not given the ability to wiggle out on who they protected. They are set on you and they are set on Haschel, two people who I trust. If either you or him die, we know they were lying.

As for my investigation target, a lot depends on if Oman is scum or not. I could go with DR's thought of choosing a target based on the role names or I could just go ahead and investigate Zindaras or Pug. I don't know, I haven't decided yet. You're making me make that decision before I have analyzed all the information available.

Also, say I tell you I'm investigating Zindaras and he knows he's scum, he could easily kill you because he knows he'll come up scum anyway. That way, he takes out someone who we believe is very pro-town which completely negates the entire protection plan.

So yes, I'm wary to tell everyone who I'm investigating. I'd love for you to tell me one strategic reason why, besides the fact that you believe Haschel and I are working together (because honestly, that's not really a strategic reason, it's more for your own state of mind), on why it is better for me to declare the target now instead of after I have all the information.

[Mexal]

Mexal, that was my strategic reason. I don't know if I think that you and Haschel are partners. Its a possibility that I'm not discounting. The strategic reason is this: tomorrow you can always claim to have investigated someone who turned up dead. If I'm the only one who feels that you need to declare your night action, I won't push it, but I'm keeping my eye on you.

Also, you seemed to object very heavily to not having guarenteed protection, and now are fine with it.

Mod: can we have a vote count?

I don't want to prematurely hammer, if deadline isn't til tomorrow.

I highly doubt that anyone I would choose to investigate would end up dead with so many confirmed pro-town players in the game but I guess anything could happen. We shall see.

[Mexal]

So DG ended up vigging Pug. I'm glad she did that. It has narrowed the pool down further.

I do have a result on an investigation and I will reveal it, but first I want to wait to see who FaerieLord tracked. I think that was the plan? If not, let me know and I'll reveal.

[Mexal]

*sits in a rock and waits for FL's results*

I'm too impatient for this

[Mexal]

EBWOP:

Especially when I don't think it really matters.

Glork is confirmed town. Haschel is confirmed town. DR is confirmed town. I am town. Mirth is believed to be town. Zindaras is considered suspicious and no one knows anything about FaerieLord.

Add in my investigation and it's a clear path to the scum. But meh, I'll wait.

[Mexal]

*sits in a rock and waits for FL's results*

I'm too impatient for this

Want to play poker?

Hehe, I would if I wasn't at work. Btw, how exactly do you sit in a rock?

[Mexal]

I'd say DG's alignement confirms Mirth too. (If Mirth didn't protect inHim/Glork) he would be dead.
But it's important that FL reveals his info first. The path may be even a bit more clear that way.

Actually, with that being said, the path is already clear. But I can wait

[Mexal]

Yes, but they're sitting on a rock. You said you were sitting in a rock. That would be a much more interesting feat

[Mexal]

FaerieLord...oh FaerieLord, where art thou???

Figured I'd try the summoning technique!

[Mexal]

You need to level up your summon materia.

I agree. You got any suggestions on how?

[Mexal]

Fae, hurry up and come either condemn yourself or Zindaras.

Or both

[Mexal]

EBWOP: I hope that makes sense. It made sense in my head, but I think it sounds off.

No, that's actually perfect

[Mexal]

I'm bored.

[Mexal]

I'm bored.

Dun dun dun?

Why are you dun dun duning me?

[Mexal]

Because it felt appropriate.

Or did it?

Dun dun dun.

You're bored too.

Sigh.

[Mexal]

Last time FaerieLord posted on the site was October 4th. If he doesn't post by the end of my work day, which is in like 10.5 hours, I'm going to reveal my investigation result. I'm too impatient for this.

[Mexal]

No.

MOD: Please PROD FL. We need him to post in order to continue the game.

Meh.

[Mexal]

Yeah, patience is a virtue. There is nothing to be gained by jumping the gun right now.

I know, but I lack that virtue and I really don't think it matters either way. But then again, I have information and you don't so my perception is slightly skewed.

[Mexal]

Mexal, please wait.

I am. So I'm spamming the thread in the mean time

[Mexal]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]prod sent. Please don't spam though, even if you're waiting.[/quote]

Are we able to get confirmation when he picks up his prod?

Also, what happens if he never comes back?

[Mexal]

If he doesn't come back, he'll get replaced.

Then,his replacement would have to give the result correctly or SUFFER THE PEOPLE'S WRATH!


D:<

We're really going to want a replacement at this stage of the game? It really doesn't matter but no one listens to poor little Mexal

[Mexal]

Mexal, I understand that you're probably eager to get your result out there and get this game on with, but there is very little to be gained by being hasty. Supposing your result is on Zindaras and we catch Fae (or his replacement) lying about being a Tracker, we can

definitively

peg two remaining scums today, and most of us wouldn't have to worry about a damned thing.

If your result is on Fae, we just lose time -- which isn't an issue, since this game isn't under deadline.

If your result is on Zindaras and Fae/Replacement give an accurate tracking, we still haven't lost a thing other than some time -- Zindie would be the obvious lynch, and we'd just go on from there.

True, but again, it doesn't matter which one my investigation is on. We have narrowed the game down to only 2 people. Zindaras and Fae. If one of them comes up guilty, then you lynch them. If the game doesn't end, you lynch the other because everyone else is confirmed (You and DR are confirmed Masons. I already investigated Haschel so he's a confirmed doc unless he's a godfather. DG dying confirmed Mirth and I am town/cop). That's my point. I understand I seem hasty, but I guess my point is it doesn't matter what Fae says or does, the way the game will end will be the same.

[Mexal]

Sorry guys. Was away for these two days. Targetted Zindy, he touched Mirth

Yay!

[Mexal]

I investigated Zindaras and he's mafia aligned.

[Mexal]

Oh.

And

Vote: Zindaras

[Mexal]

That was probably the shortest day I've ever seen on MS!

I'm happy.

[Mexal]

Actually nevermind. I forgot we waited 2 days.

[Mexal]

So there was only 2 mafia?

Well, congrats town!

[Mexal]

Ya, well done town. I should've claimed roleblocker, why didn't I claim roleblocker!

Anyway, why pick Zindaras for the investigate?

Two reasons.

1. I was suspicious of him. I couldn't pin down why but my whole argument with him at the beginning of day 2 rang false to me. He was right in what he said but his jumping all over me for something seemingly minor seemed opportunistic.

2. Process of elimination. Pug would have been a bad play because he already had a lot of suspicion on him plus if he was town, he doens't help the town anyway. Zindaras and FaerieLord were the only other two options and I was more suspicious of Zindaras.

Add 1 + 2 and you get Zindaras.

I haven't read the other stuff yet so I'll comment on that as I read.

[Mexal]

Mirth, what other information could we have milked?

[Mexal]

Ahh, so many roles I've never played with before. Fun fun. I wouldn't know what to think had you claimed Survivor cause I've neer seen it before.