Mini 532: Yaw's Split Open Mafia: (Game over)

[Zhao]

I'm here, so it's a full house now.

Since this is a (partially) open set-up, I think we might be best off with a full claim. The scum will have no choice but to claim their actual roles (or get busted on a 1-for-1 basis), and we can ask for everyone to tell the town what they did the night before, forcing the Scum lie. Ideally, we can catch scum in lies in a few days...

As mentioned countless times before, this is a bad idea. Methinks this is a ploy for scum to pick off the power roles.

Vote: SensFan

[Zhao]

Thanatos gets major props and an

unvote

.

SensFan gets an

unFoS

for not being an idiot anymore.

Flip-flopping on SensFan are you? I guess your next step is to distance yourself from him. Try not to be to obvious.

[Zhao]

Huh? Where? Zhao, you phail...

Don't worry, because of my "goon" status, he's willing to let me off the hook for suggesting him and Sensfan are in chahoots.

[Zhao]

Haiku ftw!


This plan will not work;
too many holes to exploit.
Phate is suspicious.

[Zhao]

Hey Sensfan, your buddy Phate is taking alot of flak for this plan, aren't you going to speak up? As the original proponent of it, I would have expect more discussion from you. You've haven't mentioned anything about it for 3 pages now.

I'm also suspicious of OTM, he seems to be flipping.

[Zhao]

Alright.

* My buddy? What are you implying?

* Why would you assume I would rush to Phate's defense?

* I was not the one who came up with the plan. That was Phate.

Vote: Zhao

while awaiting his answer. The quoted post seems like a whole lot of misrepresentation to me.

Ahhh, you got me there. When quickly browsing I thought Phate was carrying on your original plan, but I see that you proposed mass reveal while he wants the switcher+reopener to work in tandem. Both are wacky plans so I thought they meshed together.

[Zhao]

unvote:
vote: Zhao

I get the feeling he's not being straight with us, that's all.

I understand SensFan and Holy's votes, but this feels so bandwagony.

[Zhao]

Can you please explain their votes to me?

Sensfan voted for me because I misrepresented a relationship between him and Phate.

Holy thinks I’m purposely trying to start bandwagons.

OK, even if you disagree with Phate's plan, at least he is trying to propose something to help the town in a game with a rather unusual setup. I doubt scum is going to be bold enough to put forth a plan like this so early in the game, therefore I immediately put Phate in the "trusted" category.

Is it to be expected that scum would push a pro-town plan at the end of day 1 or day 2 instead? This is my first normal game so you have to enlighten me. Besides, I don’t see why scum can’t think outside of the box.

I feel it’s dangerous to label someone townie based on an assumption. Just because something is unlikely to happen, doesn’t mean it won’t. What if Phate was scum and he knew either the reopener or switcher were scum. The vanilla townie doesn’t get a power role so his plan fails. Phate would blame it on one of the many possible factors, shrug and say oh well, at least we tried. Meanwhile since he pushed a pro-town move, he’s viewed as townie and can coast through the rest of the game.

Zhao seems to equate bad plan with scum, which seems disingenuous to me, and not a true townie-thought-process, so I became suspicious when Zhao said Phate was suspicious.

I never equated bad plan with being scum. I guess the Haiku was a bit ambiguous.

The plan is not a good one because there are too many factors that need to fall into place. The reopener and switcher have to be townie. Also they both have to follow thought with the plan. The scum team could have many openings to exploit it.

I felt Phate was suspicious because he so resistant to criticism when he was trying to sell his plan. I would think that a townie would try to be more cooperative. He kept on saying his plan was flawless, and even when as far as saying that people that were against him were either dumb or scum.

Sure, scum could come up with a bad plan that would benefit scum more than town, but that is SO risky, and Phate's plan doesn't strike me that way.

Like I said above, there are many possibilities to Phate’s plan that it would be difficult to say what happened if the plan failed. Or if the opportunity arose, the scum team would pull a move and no one would know.

So you are currently supporting Phate’s plan?



I should take my vote off Sensfan since there is no reason for it to be there.

Unvote

[Zhao]

OTM, you have some explaining to do …

Post 133

vote: Thanatos

Phate is making sense. Your disagreement with his plans does not seem like townie reasoning to me. There is a marked difference between the way Korlash and Sensfan have disagreed and discussed the issues around the plan and how you have discussed the plan. You don't seem to have any non-BS reasons for disagreeing, basically.

FOS: kabenon for having a non-committal opinion on the exchange. Sounds like he's waiting to see which way the wind blows - common for scum.

Post 178

unvote:

After reading the last page, Thanatos no longer seems scummy to me.

However, this:

But I think Phate's plan could work, but it would take luck, extenuating circumstances, but I don't like the town running full blown into a plan that could cripple us as well.

STILL reads as quite noncommittal to me. Just because he said Thanatos comes out on top doesn't mean he has a real opinion on the debate. He is still ready to lean either way.

I still think the plan is a good one, btw. It is true that some power roles will be exposed upon reassignment, but that's much better than losing the power roles altogether.

vote: kabenon

Here you are setting up kabenon then voting for him because he wouldn’t choose sides concerning Phate’s plan.

Post 273

Anyway, back to the game... I have a list of players I trust at this point and players I am still not sure about. I'll share so we can see who agrees and who thinks I'm off my rocker:

Trust:
Phate
Korlash
kabenon (yes I know I suspected him, he's changed my mind)
Holy
SensFan
Drunken Piper

However here you put him in the trust group. What happened from post 178-273 from him being suspicious enough for a vote to one of you ‘trusted’ townies? That’s a pretty big change.

You’ve also mentioned before that you feel Phate is a trusted townie because he is pushing a pro-town plan, but what reasons do you have for the other 4? I hope you are not just throwing names around so others can fill in the blanks for you.

Post 285

This

I felt Phate was suspicious because he so resistant to criticism when he was trying to sell his plan. I would think that a townie would try to be more cooperative. He kept on saying his plan was flawless, and even when as far as saying that people that were against him were either dumb or scum.

is absolutely correct. Phate's reactions to the challenges of his plan have been ridiculous. However, I agree with Phate that this comes down to playstyle. Phate may be an arrogant bastard, but this unfortunately does not make him scum. I still consider him trustworthy as town, but I do not find it fun to be a "teammate" with someone like this and I almost want to vote him off just to improve the game.

Why are you saying my statement is absolutely correct? I said Phate is suspicious because of his playstyle. But you said his playstyle does not make him scum. And then you continue that you consider him trustworthy as town.

I totally disagree with your statement where you said you would vote him off because he is difficult. Lynching a difficult townie is still a townie lynch and hurts the town.

What did you mean by “teammate”? The only teams possible are the scum team and night communicators. You trying to catch Phate with a guilt by association ploy incase you get lynched?

Post 290

Phate, to change gears slightly, what do you think of Thanatos's recent hop-on of your bandwagon? Doesn't THAT seem like buddying up, since it seems to irk you so much when people agree with you?

You are trying to defect Phate’s attention away from yourself.

Post 295

I also find it a little disturbing that you are saying my logic is suspect because I think you are a townie. If you ARE indeed a townie, shouldn't you just think I am perceptive? Perhaps you read too literally. I don't share ALL of my thoughts as I read the thread, or else I would dominate the thread with pages and pages of material. That's one of the hardest things for me when I play this game, is how much I choose to communicate, and what I choose to share.

You expected Phate to be nice to you since you put him on you trust list … if he was townie? Are you trying to imply he might be scum since he’s not saying you are perceptive?

[Zhao]

I really don't like it when people make comments like "I really think one of these two is scum and we should get rid of one of them asap." Its too easy for scum to pull that stuff and set up two townies who happen to be disagreeing for lynching. Being that the two in question seem to be two of our more prolific posters in here, it would also cripple discussion.

FOS Thanatos

Thing is, both of them are acting pretty scummy so it's hard for me to agree with your statement. I hope you are not suggesting that a lively discussion is more important than scumhunting.

What is your opinion on the case against OTM?

[Zhao]

I wasn't "setting up" anything, the only way you could interpret me that way is by reading me with your mind already made up that I am scum and that is poor play. I was suspicious of kabenon for being noncomittal, he continued being noncommital, he got my vote. It's really not hard to figure out.

He has showed townish reasoning in the way he has reasoned out the pros/cons of the plan.

When you voted for him in 178, he had posted some pro/cons of the plan (in which you edited out). You’re saying that his take on the plan pre-178 was scummy but post-178 was townie?

The thing is you posted nothing from 178-273 stating you felt kabenon was less suspicious. You only unvoted for him to bandwagon me. Suddenly dropping the ball in 273 stating he was a trusted townie doesn’t make sense.

@kabenon: Would you care to add your thoughts on this?

Ridiculous. All of the players I have named as trusted have demonstrated that they are working in the best interests of the town, mainly with their reactions/discussion of Phate's plan. Again, pretty simple.

Are you going to share your reasoning, or keep us guessing? It bothers me that you throw around the ‘trusted townie’ label so freely with no explanation.

My comment was in jest. Of course I do not want to lynch a townie. I said "I almost want to lynch him just to make the game more enjoyable" - obviously that is different than "I want to lynch him." Your sarcastic-meter needs realignment.

I’ve actually met players that have stood by this logic in previous games. To intermix jest statements with serious ones is not a good play.

The town is a team. I am assuming Phate is on my team, the town team. It is really unbelievable how badly you can misinterpret things.

Are you still trying to buddy up with Phate even after he gave you that bussing?

I’m not satisfied at all with your explanations.

Vote: OTM

@Zhao- mainly because people's reactions to the discussion are where I find scum. I almost never get scumtells from the bigger arguments, but my how often the craplogic pops up amongst the people discussing that argument or interjecting their thoughts. So in a way, their discussion may not be scumhunting in your eyes, but it *is* helping me scumhunt. As far as the OTM thing is concerned, I'm not sure if he just has a scummy playstyle or if I'm getting true scum vibes from him. (Hence my lack of a vote.)

So you’re saying we should keep Phate and OTM around because their dialog is helping you flush out scum. Alright, who you do suspect then?

Concerning OTM, so you are undecided on him. You’re saying his performance might be due to playstyle – but he is emitting scum vibes.

So is that the new excuse for people? If someone acts scummy, they’ll just say not to worry because he’s actually townie and that is his playstyle. I’m sensing BS.

I'm not even calling you scum. I'm saying OTM has been very scummy, and he has a relationship with you that I Find curious. That's all.

If you are not calling Phate scummy, why did you make the statement where:

… I believe that one of them is scum, or both of them are distancing.

So which is it? Is Phate scummy to you or not?

[Zhao]

I dislike this point, yet I dislike OTM's answer even more... On one hand, I myself have drasitcally changed my opinions in 100 posts... yet I have no problem actaully telling them to the town myself...

I don’t see any problem with changing one’s opinion. I have a problem with people changing them with no explanation … like a logical discontinuity in his thinking.

- FOS Kabenon because he is non-committal on Phate’s plan.
- Vote Kabanon because he is still non-committal.
- ???
- Kabanon is a trusted townie.

I am almost 100% positive he meant the "Town team" pretty hard to forget about that one isn't it? Unless of course you are not on it yourself...

I interpret it to mean either scum or mason team. So since I see things differently for you, I’m wrong? I don’t refer to townies as much as a team since they don’t know who is helping or hindering them, so there is less cohesiveness and direction.

I see that you’ve added a leading question to throw suspicion onto me, good attack there.

No, he is trying to get Phate's opinion on another player. While, at the same time, throwing suspicion ONTO Phate.

so your actually wrong either way you look at it. I hate when attacker's are wrong in their attacks. If a case gives room for obvious strawmanning, it gives room for failure.

No … OTM and Phate were having an exchange about the reasoning on which Phate voted for him. Thantos votes OTM. OTM says ‘let's change gears’ and asks Phate to comment about Thantos’s wagony vote. That feels like a deflection to me.

What is strawmanning?

I don;t like the "Non-commital" argument almost as much as I hate the "Opprotunistic" argument. Each one has it's own interpretation, and opinions of the matter will vary *Drastically* from player to player. What you see as non-commital, I may see as "Careful consideration" or maybe "Indepth examination." While I agree Zhao seems to have already made up his mind. This is cause for a scum pair relationship where one KNOWS he is bussing his partner... Not very strong, but not a bad starting place either.

Huh? You’re saying that OTM and I might be scum partners and I’ve decided to go after him? I'm not voting just for show; I think OTM is scummy enough for a lynch.

When I said OTM was setting up Kabenon, I did not say “I’m certain he setting him up” and “Anything OTM says in response is a falsehood”, I made a general accusation at OTM. He had the opportunity to say, “You are wrong Zhao, I did not pre-plan to set him up because so and so”, and I would have consider his explanation.

I'm sorry... were you not the one who attacked OTM for asking Phate a similar question?

Not so.

I was discussing how OTM was claiming Kabenon a trusted townie. Since the subject was about Kabenon, his participation was justified since he might add some information from his perspective.

Phate and OTM were discussing why OTM labeled Phate a trusted townie. Thantos’s vote had nothing to do with that subject.

First, I agree his explanations sucked... L-3 is not *that bad* so vote is ok for now... You definitly need to take it off should another vote surface, unless you can somehow manage a better attack.

So you think that OTM is scummy but there isn’t enough material for an OTM lynch? Is there any reason why you singled me out where I should unvote if he gets to L-1, given that others have placed a vote on him for less reasoning?

If you think we should slow down on the OTM lynch, could you provide reasoning on why we shouldn’t lynch him? Or at least show something that would make him less suspicious?

Second, I don't understand you here. By Bussing are you implying you think OTM and Phate are partners? Not implying anything myself, simply asking.

Is bussing a term only used to describe scum attacking other scum? I thought it was used to describe someone attacking another. An IC in my first newbie game used it in the context of townie attacking scum.

I had said earlier that Phate was suspicious because of his difficult attitude. But that’s not enough to label him scum.

However here you put him in the trust group. What happened from post 178-273 from him being suspicious enough for a vote to one of you ‘trusted’ townies? That’s a pretty big change.

He has showed townish reasoning in the way he has reasoned out the pros/cons of the plan.

However you outlined your reasoning around kabenon’s discussion of WIFOM and joking around with Korlash, having nothing to do with your original answer. What happened to townish reasoning for pro/cons of the plan?

[Zhao]

Bull.

FOS: Phate

Seems a few people are falling out of you trusted townie group. Could you provide an updated list to which you generated in 278.

[Zhao]

Seems a few people are falling out of you trusted townie group. Could you provide an updated list to which you generated in 278.

What's the point, so you can nitpick me some more? I'm getting rather sick of being in the spotlight for no reason. Obviously I no longer trust SensFan at all, and I am slightly suspicious of Phate too... not sure what to think about him at this point. Whatever his alignment, he is annoying.

You've answered all my questions, why so testy?

I just wanted to see where everyone stood, so I can try to see things from your perspective. I don't have the tunnel-vision for your lynch as Korlash claimed.

If you want to stop acting pro-town, then I won't bother and just assume you are indeed mafia.

[Zhao]

... Define a few?

Define strawmanning.

[Zhao]

For the record, I haven't let Zhao off the hook, I'm still watching him. He's phishing a lot...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you think I'm scummy because I disagreed with Phate's plan and said he was suspcious?

Besides myself, who else do you find suspicious?

[Zhao]

Wow... Are you that dense you have to avoid even a simple statement... Look The only person I ever saw you bring up was Phate. That equals one to me. Give me enough to qualify as "A few"

You constantly answer my posts in an abrasive and mocking manner so I want to be difficult. It’s childish but satisfying.

Phate
SensFan

I thought he mentioned Drunken Piper some time ago but that was someone else. So it’s not a few, unless you consider two = few.

*laughs* Ahhh... Kinda of funny... First you say he answers all your questions, now your implying he is not acting "Pro-Town" can I get some examples of this. Reasons behind this statement. Perhaps evidence you do not already assume he is mafia as that is how it appears.

You are ignorant Korlash. Yes, he answered my questions, but the caveat was he didn’t answer them to my satisfaction. Him providing a listing of everyone and his take on their alignment is Pro-town since it’s more information we can use. If he is lynched and revealed mafia, we might be able to the information from his 2 lists to do some extrapolation possibly getting leads on who his partners are.

So yes, I was trying to bait OTM to produce his second list so that we may use it in the future. Unfortunately he ceases to cooperate.

Ahh man this game is interesting... For all Zhao's yaking I feel he is town. For all OTM"s crappy defenses I still don't like his lynch. Even Phate, the guy who came up with such an obviously pro-town plan ... I still find him the best lynch.

Since you want to slow down the OTM lynch, will you be providing any material that might exonerate him? Or you just all talk?

Not because your disagreement with the plan, that plan indeed had flaws although if there's not too much WIFOM in it it may works good for the town if you really follow the thought process. So, it's more from the discussion process, your reactions along the plan whether it was pro/cons.
And because lately you're phishing a lot too.

Show me.

[Zhao]

Well, if you had read my post, you would have seen that I said I was planning on putting OTM at -1 myself, but QuickBen beat me to it. And I don't feel confident enough yet to lynch OTM. The reason I think he is scum is because he voted after just skimming. I was planning on voting after much deliberation. A scum could just vote for the majority to seem like they are scumhunting easily enough.

What more are you looking for? OTM has reached his frustration point and is angry at a lot of us since he feels we’ve been treating him like a punching bag. You can pretty much expect OTM to be less than forthcoming with any new information.

Ok, I skimmed the thread last night and can't say that OTM has really cleared himself to me. He has the distinct look of scum on the hook who is thrashing around and trying to launch accusations in every direction. I feel comfortable putting him at L-1.

WTF? You haven’t even done much with OTM and you’re putting him at L-1 just like that? You have some serious explaining to do.

OTM shouldn’t be lynched just yet as we need to hear from QuickBen.

Unvote
Vote: QuickBen

[Zhao]

… although Zhao's post makes my bus alert tingle.

Who am I bussing and how is that making you tingle?

I've never been lynched before. This could be a historic occasion. And I'm town, too, which really kinda sucks for my first lynch. Ah well.

I have never been mislynched (On this site)... I'm sorry I thought we were sharing things that we stay up at night thinking about, yet don't actually mean anything when you say them out loud.

He said lynched not mislynched … intentional Freudian slip?

He also claimed unpowered town..if Drunken Piper did in fact claim unpowered that means we have three unpowered town..what is the probability of that?

Gambler’s Fallacy?

[Zhao]

Not because your disagreement with the plan, that plan indeed had flaws although if there's not too much WIFOM in it it may works good for the town if you really follow the thought process. So, it's more from the discussion process, your reactions along the plan whether it was pro/cons.
And because lately you're phishing a lot too.

Show me.

Well... ^this is one. Phishing.

No ... I want you to back up your accusations with evidence. Otherwise you're basically slandering me to make me look suspicious.

[Zhao]

You are already suspicious. Why are you so concerned being suspicious anyway? If you did nothing wrong or at least didn't do anything too badly, no one or at least the majority won't even look at your case. You care about this too much. Scummy...

You’re saying it’s ok to accuse someone of wrongdoing without providing evidence? Sounds fun!

I accuse Holy of all these logical fallacies. He’s one scummy player.
• Attack the Person (ad hominem)
• Appeal to Emotion
• Argument from Repetition (ad nauseam)
• Circular Reasoning (begging the question)
• Appeal to Authority
• Guilt by Association
• Straw Man (mischaracterization)
• Correlation Implies Causation (cum hoc ergo propter hoc)
• Red Herring (distraction technique)
• Appeal to Probability
• Argument from Fallacy
• Loaded Question (fallacy of many questions)
• Gambler's Fallacy (Monty Hall problem)
• No True Scotsman (stereotypes)
• Burden of Proof (proof of a negative)
• WIFOM (Wine In Front of Me)
o Too Townie (A Subset of WIFOM Illogic)

Did you noticed my earlier accusations to you? You did phail twice, but the second time was quite huge for me (that was in the middle of the plan discussion if I'm not mistaken), you seems didn't really thought for the town sake, and you accused Sensfan about the plan wrongly. If you really concerned for the town, you won't make that such a mistake!

I see. Pro-town players don’t make stupid mistakes. We might as well eliminate all players that haven’t made stupid mistakes and catch scum in a neat little package. Game over.

[Zhao]

Slander is spoken. In print it's libel.

True but libeling doesn't roll off the tounge as nice.

[Zhao]

I still find OTM scummier than QuickBen, although Zhao's post makes my bus alert tingle.

You still haven’t explained this statement.

BTW, you haven’t talked about your plan for some time, and there was no consensus by everyone not to do it. Have you given up trying to sell it? Don’t tell me it was just some elaborate smokescreen.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find Korlash more and more scummy as time goes on? He hasn't connected himself with anyone really, but he's throwing out suspicions of everyone left and right, he's purposefully oblivious to the fact that newbies play differently than more experienced players (and thus what's scummy for a newbie is different than what's scummy for an experienced player), and his logic sucks, as is evidenced in the last post.

I actually agree with you here. I’ve felt that Korlash has been taking a lot of pot shots at people and not going further. His shifting good cop/bad cop routine against me is annoying and strange. Recently thought he has focused more on just PanzerJager and then you.

He’s said we should slow down on the OTM lynch but didn’t provide any reasoning why OTM could be innocent, nor source anyone else for this. I’m speculating he might be throwing around pro-town statements to make himself more resistant to lynch.

@ Holy: I believe he was just being a sarcastic ass. Or that is how I took it. I would be very interested in seeing him actually try to pass any of those off.

I was mocking you Holy, but now that I think of it, you might have made those faulty statements just to get me to react and say statements that could be used against me later.

Not because your disagreement with the plan, that plan indeed had flaws although if there's not too much WIFOM in it it may works good for the town if you really follow the thought process. So, it's more from the discussion process, your reactions along the plan whether it was pro/cons.
And because lately you're phishing a lot too.

Show me.

Well... ^this is one. Phishing.

I ask you to point out where I’m phishing and you point out the post I asked you. This is confusing.

You are already suspicious. Why are you so concerned being suspicious anyway? If you did nothing wrong or at least didn't do anything too badly, no one or at least the majority won't even look at your case. You care about this too much. Scummy...

So you’re saying that if someone is calling me scummy but I’m innocent, the correct play would be to ignore them? Trying to prove innocence is not recommended?

Hello. I am MBF. I brisky skimmed the thread and now I want to vote for everybody, starting with Quickben, Korlash, and Phate, not necessarily in that order.

vote: Phate

Reasoning?

My vote on OTM (which doesn't seem to have counted?) was due to being on the fence about his individual posts, where I couldn't decide if it was his playstyle that was pinging the scumdar or if he was actually committing scumtells. By skimming the thread, instead of getting more comfortable with his playstyle, it made me more suspicious. (Hence my vote.)

Could you be more specific? I would like to know details.

[Zhao]

Sorry for the non-posting, been busy with a bunch of things.

I hoped to see at least something to show why we shouldn't lynch OTM. I'm going back to my original vote as I think it's the right one.

unvote
vote: OTM

[Zhao]

Kudos on the win Mike, you did really well. I’m surprised that you were the only one to catch my breadcrumbing about Kabanon007 being my mason buddy. I had various statements in Day 1 mentioned the fact I considered the mason and mafia the only real ‘teams’. I think if you didn’t nail him, the town probably would not have caught him because he was playing a very unnoticeable game.

Reading over the mason conversation, it’s funny but I was pressing for Kabanon007 to talk more of Phate, Thantos and Quickben and he hesitated because 2 were his mafia partners! From the mafia conversations, looks like I caused Kabanon007 to change his mind and I actually saved Thantos but caused my own demise. Would probably have been a different game if they killed the cop as they originally decided!