Mafia 82: International (Game Over)

[Cass]

/confirm

dear me, that's some huge posts for a confirmation stage...

[Cass]

The treaty thing is interesting, but I prefer not to trust anyone yet... It would also become a pretty pointless thing if everyone joined. I'm quite interested if it will lead to anything though.

[Cass]

Heya. Not much to add to the whole pact-thing. Except it's getting a bit ridiculous how upset people get over it...

Off-topic, the usernames in this game amuse me:
- The Griffin is done talking to the Earthworm
- Battle mage is fighting... Opposed Force!

[Cass]

Four to go. As far as I can see, we're waiting for Armlx, Veronica, Cyberbob & Winterbells.

@BM: over fifty posts before the game even starts... are you trying to set a record here?? (You probably already have...)

[Cass]

I was staying out of the whole discussion, because it seemed pretty stupid to me to blow the pact-idea to pieces before it had even been tried. I wanted to see it in action before taking a stance. Seems it's too late for that, pity. Well, at least there should be enough content now for us to skip that annoying random stage - good job, BM

[Cass]

Nhat - what? That makes no sense whatsoever.

FoS Nhat

I think Untitled has done a good job defending his actions for the most part. I am more suspicious of Battle Mage and his pact. First off, I want to say the pact is a null tell, but it's more accurate to say it's misleading to vote people based on who is and is not in the pact. The pact simply won't work, as it's too easy to infiltrate.
Also, 73 posts in the pre-game and not a lot of substance to go with it, either. Mafia is largely a game of quality, not quantity.
Vote: Battle Mage

That deserves a

Vote: StrangerCoug

For hypocrisy and badly stretched 'logic'.

[Cass]

Nhat: so, if I'd say "

We

should lynch Untitled." I'm scummy? Or what's the difference?

[Cass]

@Nhat: I disagree that your 'softclaim' is any kind of tell. I tend to use words like 'we', 'our', etc. a lot. We are after all a group here (with some traitors in our midst, but they're trying to blend in). I consider (soft)claiming 'town', no matter how subtle or unsubtle, a null-tell. Because you see, there is no reason in the world for anyone not to do it. (Btw, I've heard of forums where

everyone

starts the day with 'hi, townie here' or something like that.)

[Cass]

gneral tip the manner in which you say somthing can help your case if you seem disrespectful of other peoples idea or thoughts poeple arent likely to change their mind.

That's rich, coming from you
I'll assume this means you are improving yourself, very good. I admire that

(PS I was referring to another game there... in which MM wasn't exactly the epitome of respect.)

[Cass]

I think Untitled has done a good job defending his actions for the most part. I am more suspicious of Battle Mage and his pact. First off, I want to say the pact is a null tell, but it's more accurate to say it's misleading to vote people based on who is and is not in the pact. The pact simply won't work, as it's too easy to infiltrate.
Also, 73 posts in the pre-game and not a lot of substance to go with it, either. Mafia is largely a game of quality, not quantity.
Vote: Battle Mage

That deserves a
Vote: StrangerCoug
For hypocrisy and badly stretched 'logic'.

I can see the hypocritical part, perhaps, but where's the badly stretched logic?

This is SC's case:
- The pact's a null tell
- The pact will vote people based on whether or not they are in it (this is not true)
- The pact will not work, because of infiltration (BM explained why this isn't a valid point)
- BM posts a lot but with not enough substance

I do not see

anything

in that list that would make BM scum, do you? I don't see how the case justifies the vote, so I call craplogic (with several others).

[Cass]

@Dynamo: why are you so hesitant to vote? Both cases look strong enough for this phase of the game, and they're both at L-12 or something like that.

[Cass]

On the other hand, EA implied that his votes do not mean an intention to lynch (yet). So his vote-swapping is comparable to a load of FoSes for different people, which does not seem scummy to me. I sounds like Nhat has built another very weak case, this time to distract attention.

Unvote
Vote: Nhat

It is a good bandwagon.

[Cass]

@Nhat: of course you're allowed to scum-hunt, but this case is papery-thin. It really feels like an attempt at distraction to me. (And I thought your first case was nonsensical, so I agreed with the votes already on you.)

[Cass]

I agree that Dynamo is somewhat fishy. The way he jumped on the treaty, but mostly how he had two cases today, but didn't vote.

[Cass]

Cass, his first vote was weak, the second weaker even, and finally the third strong. Whats weak about that case?

Well, he basically votes EA because EA changed his vote around. On day one. When EA has said literally that vote =/= intention to lynch. I disagree that voting different people at this stage of the game is a scumtell at all.

And Nhat voting based on that is an excellent reason to put a little more pressure on him. (It's not as if he's anywhere near a risk of getting lynched.)

[Cass]

@armlx: I disagree that a vote = always an intent to lynch. I also believe early day 1 (even if it's not the random stage) is one of those cases where votes don't express an intent to lynch. If Nhat were suddenly, magically at L-1, I'd unvote immediately. I don't want to lynch him (yet). I don't want to lynch anyone right now. Yet.

In fact, I'd prefer that in a large game like this everyone votes as soon as possible, and switches whenever they like. We want vote-trails.

[Cass]

Cass calls the case a distraction, which sounds like a conscious decision.

Uhm what? I don't get what you're saying. Yes, calling it a distraction was a conscious decision... I usually type my posts when conscious...
Nhat had the largest wagon against him yet - not very large, but if he's scum, he might have gotten paranoid and made a case on just anyone, based on something not very relevant, like, in this case, vote switching. That was my impression when I read the case. It felt papery thin, and thus fake.

[Cass]

Cass: Seems to just be leaning whatever way looks popular recently.

This feels like an odd accusation. I voted SC first, that was the first (or maybe second?) vote on him. I then voted Nhat and caught some flak for that. Didn't make me feel so popular

@Nhat: I don't think EA had good reasons for switching his votes, but I disagree with you that is a scumtell. We are all voting based on flimsy cases right now, simply because the game has barely started. Yep, there's ten pages pregame, but those only contain information on some of the 26 players. I happen to disagree with both your 'scum-tells', and so you seem a good place for my vote. Your defensiveness is potentially interesting too.

@A lot of players: it is

14

votes to lynch, people. Why are you so phobic of votes & bandwagons? I find all the unvoting and the unwillingness to put pressure on people slightly disturbing.
I personally will start thinking about 'intent to lynch' by the time someone hits ten or so votes. Right now, I have other priorities than lynching someone. So do my votes.

[Cass]

'the active bandwagons'? Aside from SC I've only voted Nhat. That's hardly a long list of bandwagons... Does getting on one bandwagon make one scum? Also please name a case for me that isn't flimsy, I'd love to have a solid base for a vote.

[Cass]

2 people is too big? And in fact, Korts claimed he never officially joined, so the pact never actually had ANY official members. The idea of the pact is to provide the illusion that it can shelter scum, scum then join, and we can assess their play much more than if they were allowed to hide in the shadows.

So do you think Korts is scum then? And the other peple who wanted to join: Dynamo, Wolf? Is there scum among them, are they perhaps

all

scum, or did the idea of your pact fail? Why are you not after any of these people now?
Also, out of curiosity: Did you not admit to your pact Dynamo because you thought he was scum, or because you thought he

wasn't

scum? Or soem other reason?

@Mafiamann: I dont get what you are doing. You post a long PbPa on BM, but I see no conlclusions? Does that mean you decided he's town? Why are you not voting yet? If you had to vote right now, who'd you vote for?

@BM and SC: you two with your constant posting of huge quotes-in-quotes-in-quotes walls of text make this game really hard to follow... (and gives me a headache.) Try keeping it a bit shorter please? Though the large analysis-of-all-players post by SC was awesome, I've no problems with that! Right now I think you're probably both town, and your constant arguing makes it that much easier for the scum to get away with lurking.

[Cass]

Just stop building those quote-monsters and I will be much happier. They're really not necessary

[Cass]

Exactly! Nobody has answered me yet to explain why it is so bloody scary to vote for someone already. Your single little vote isn't going to kill anyone now, this is a large game - it's hardly even pressure. To kill, you're going to need to join a proper lynch mob

[Cass]

No matter what some people here say, intent to lynch isn't the only reason to vote for someone.

[Cass]

Yes, add me to that list... I don't get what makes him think MM is town, I definitely don't get why he said it at this point, and the part about his role is just... I have no words. 'WTF' expresses my opinion.

[Cass]

To add to that: animorphers vote is on Nhat "For Soft-claiming, which is a bad thing"! Yet now it seems he is soft-claiming

for another player

?? Animorpher, you had better have a damn good explanation, or my vote is going to move...

[Cass]

Cass wrote:
On the other hand, EA implied that his votes do not mean an intention to lynch (yet). So his vote-swapping is comparable to a load of FoSes for different people, which does not seem scummy to me. I sounds like Nhat has built another very weak case, this time to distract attention.
Unvote
Vote: Nhat It is a good bandwagon.

This vote stinks. Need I say more?

To you and to everyone else who called my vote scummy: did you check all my posts today? because I started the day with FoS-ing Nhat - he was a close number two after SC even then. So I saw his weak attack on EA in the light of him already being very scummy. My vote-switch there wasn't a sudden jump, in other words.

[Cass]

About Animorpher: yes, his post was bad. You could argue that he is just inexperienced and clueless, but his vote is on someone

for soft-claiming

(mistakenly too, but that's beside the point). If that's not rampant contradiction, I don't know what is. I still hope he'll come back and explain himself...

[Cass]

@BM: repeating my question: you said scum would join the pact - so why are you not pursuing anyone who joined the pact? It seems rather contradictory.

I'm very disappointed animorph is running off like that. Also that seven people seem not to be playing the game at all (and if they're scum, looks like they're getting away with it too...)

[Cass]

unvote, vote cass

. Why is cass still talking about "the pact"? It's a totally meaningless diversion.

I just wanted BM to answer a question, mostly because I was curious, and because of a possible contradiction. I admit it wasn't very relevant to scumhunting.

On my scum-list right now, in random order:
- nhat (reasons have been discussed, not much has changed)
- animorpherv (I agree with Snaps & Cyberbob, plus I'm quite annoyed he ran away before answering our questions)
- armlx (seems to be lurking in plain sight, gives me a bad vibe)
- Dynamo (his hesitation to vote, his touchy response to my commenting on that, possible role-fishing)

On another note, I really hope the slow readers / lurkers can pick up the pace, I find it very hard to keep track of replacements and such in a game as large as this one.

[Cass]

Hm, I had not even noticed that armlx was pushing wagons without putting his vote on them... explains my bad feeling I guess.
I'm curious if he has an explanation.

FoS Armlx

[Cass]

Hm, I had not even noticed that armlx was pushing wagons without putting his vote on them... explains my bad feeling I guess.
I'm curious if he has an explanation.

FoS Armlx

Why only a FoS, though, then?
Cautious bussing?

Yes,it's bussing, how'd you figure it out?? [/sarcasm]

It was only a FoS because I was curious about his explanation / defense:

After unvoting nhat, I figuredmy first intuitions about the pact were most likely the most accurate and that Dynamo's action was the scummiest thing so far.

I find this unconvincing, he fails to adress why he pushed wagons later without voting, if he apparantly didn't find those people very scummy at all. So,

Unvote
Vote Armlx

I like the case on Dynamo too, and I will keep my eye on nhat. The wagon on myself feels a bit vague, seems to me like a lot of different people who don't agree with one of my votes or FoSes - or am I missing something? Either, I have admitted to voting for flimsy reasons myself, so I suppose I shouldn't complain if others do the same.

[Cass]

Mainly though, I would like to see the return of Cass for the following: In post 282, she quotes StrangerCoug's reasons for voting Battle Mage and without specifying which of the reasons she refers to, votes for SC "For hypocrisy and badly stretched logic."
In post 349 she is asked about the logic and lists out the 4 points of SC's case. Unfortunately point 2 is a straw man. She says:
Cass, in post 349 wrote:
The pact will vote people based on whether or not they are in it (this is not true)
whereas StrangerCoug had said that:
StrangerCoug wrote:
it's misleading to vote people based on who is and is not in the pact.

This is a different point entierly. Instead of describing the voting behaviour of people in the pact, SC is saying that it is misleading to determine the alignment of those in and out of the pact.

Well, perhaps i misread or perhaps you misread, but that is how i understand his sentence. It is a confusing sentence though, so if I misunderstood I'm sorry.

Later in the same post she says that the 4 reasons comprise 'craplogic' and says that several others have made the same judgement. Looking back, I can't find where anyone else had mentioned craplogic with regard to SC's post. PeterGriffin (now replaced by Lowell) used craplogic in post 274 as a reason for voting for Untitled, again in defense of BM, but that's it.

I'm quite sure BM at least also called SC on his lack of logic there. I don't have the time to read everything back, but I seem to remember more people disagreeing with SC there, although perhaps not voting him for it.

Will post more later.

[Cass]

I think at least one of Armlx and Dynamo is scum. They could even both be scum, distancing, though that seems less likely. Of these, Dynamo is probably the better lynch, because his posts are far more anti-town - and rife with actual scum-tells:

Thats an ingenius plan you have forming together

Buddying up to BM. His other two posts day one are more buddying and /treaty. If scum was going to join the pact, I think this is how they would do it.

He starts the day with some meaningless fluff and says he'll reread and then vote:

Okay I wasnt able to get on for all of yesterday and wow I missed 10 pages of discussion? haha and it was all pregame! Thats I first for me. I find it funny how everyone could generate such an amazing controversy over something that seemed so meaningless at the time (considering it was pregame)
Im gonna go back and read up before I vote.

But in his next post he says:

I looked at most of the the posts since the game has

started

because the pregame to me was just like a bunch of random crap.

So he decided to skip the reading after all. Also, in this post he makes two foses and no vote. The vote contains a lot of 'haha', 'lol' and 'I'm confused', which makes it all sound very dishonest to me. Look at the two FoSes:

Nhat so far looks like he has drawn a ton of suspicion, even with his vote on untitled but it hasn't sold me yet (I mean his horrible logic doesn't exactly make him scummy, its just horrible logic). However I will FoS: Nhat

In other words: "He's not scummy, but he has drawn suspicion, so I'll FoS him and see if a wagon picks up."

Right now SC is the biggest blip on the radar for me with his "Mafia is a game of quality not quantity post" and then someone else shows us that almost half of his posts are one liners that aren't quality at all (at least thats how I see it) Along with the fact that he mentions that he has played a completly different form of mafia that floors me (It seems that he just interjected something so that he wouldn't just be saying "I understand now" FoS: StrangerCoug

Again, something that "someone else has shown us" and something completely irrelevant (SC he mentions a different kind of mafia - in no way do I see this leading to a FoS).
I question him about this and this seems to irritate him:

There you go cass: I voted because I had a case. The question is are you going to call that out and say that thats scummy as well? Because frankly at this point Im profounded at the menial things people call scummy.

Sounds somewhat defensive/paranoid to me. he then votes EA based on someone elses case. (I'm starting to see a pattern here...)
Then the infamous role-fishing:

How would you know his role? Care to tell us how you came about this information?

This post makes all my alarmbells go off.

Then his defense:

Apparently Im just a misunderstood noob that likes lurking.

Aww, poor little noob... Appeal to emotion and also not a defense at all. Followed up with an appeal to sarcasm, appeal to confusion and then some more appeal to emotion. And then he just gives up:

Well a no lynch or lynching me seems to be the best possible choice here. The way i see it from your guys ends is that you all have really good cases that I can agree with because my posts are amazingly lacklusterly scumbagy. Personally I honestly havent read enough of the last 5 pages to say who would be a good choice. To me it seems like Im a noob, and people just cant read posts correctly but Ive understood thats not the case.

If he flips scum, I'll definitely have to go back tomorrow and look for bussing there.

Unvote
Vote: Dynamo

[Cass]

EBWOP: "The

vote

contains a lot..." should have been "The

post

contains a lot..."

[Cass]

Cass, nice false dichotomy on Dynamo/me there.

I just said that you two are my top two supects. How is that a false dichotomy?

[Cass]

I'm getting a newb feel from dynamo's posts that seems geniune enough. The main thing I don't like is how he gave up on defending himself. The rest, I think, can be explained well enough.

But is there anything that makes you think newb town, rather than newb scum? Because I agree with the newb feel, but I don't see anything pro-town in his posts.

[Cass]

Hi, I still agree we should lynch Dynamo. Yes, I have seen townies do something like what he did, but scum as well. And he doesn't show any inclination to help town or try to convince us to let him live.

[Cass]

Why? Do you think people will jump on this chance to get attacked by BM? Maybe it was a joke, but if so, I don't get it...

[Cass]

I don't understand this response to what amounts to appeal to emotion.

What do you mean? Do you mean you don't understand the votes on Dynamo? Or are you referring to something else?

I agree that it's weird how Netlava voted without any explanation (in the post itself I mean), but I'm not sure it's scummy - though I guess that if Netlava at some point flips scum, it would make Dynamo even more suspect.

FoS: Netlava

But I don't think it's worth a vote. His later explanation sounds reasonable enough.

[Cass]

Hmm, this is a bit disappointing. I announced my intentions clearly enough. It's not a typo - I don't actually think Dynamo is scum. Sometimes, though, I vote people who I don't think are scum simply for the sake of a lynch. Tis just a playstyle.

But since this is regarded as scummy, then that's fine, I'm won't be doing this in the future. I'll just let my vote sit uselessly on someone who I do think is scummy.

So, uhm. You don't think Dynamo is scum, in fact you don't even think he's scummy. You just vote him for the sake of a lynch. What?

So you think trying to get a townie lynched is more useful than voting for a scummy player? Sir, your logic baffles me. I'm not even sure it's scummy, it just makes no sense at all.

FoS Netlava

FTR: I don't think your "useless" vote on me is particularly scummy, but all the switching around of your vote for weak and/or illogical reasons is beginning to feel kinda wishy-washy.

[Cass]

I'm going to go ahead and

FOS Netlava

, because he's done other things I didn't like, in addition to the scummy actions that have already been brought up. But I don't think a Netlava lynch is going to happen today, and I think lynching Dynamo will give us more information and is probably more likely to get scum, so I'm leaving my vote on him. (Although I'm not quite so sure anymore, after EA's argument, which seems pretty valid to me.)

Quoted this post for later reference. This sounds a bit like preparing for tomorrow's lynch, while leaving a backdoor open in case Dynamo flips town.

[Cass]

Wel, I have to agree that this day has been long enough for my tastes. What I'd like best is a Dynamo lynch and a next day with some actual fact to work with. Dynamo is still not acting as a townie and doesn't show any interest in even trying, so i don't know how letting him live would help the town. More importantly, i think he's scum.

The case on netlava is interesting an Armlx is still acting scummy, but I'd prefer to look into all that tomorrow, when we (hopefully) know what Dynamo's alignment is.

[Cass]

Yeah, with every post he makes I can see the "raider is active lurking"-case more. Something to keep an eye on, but again, not today.

I endorsed the postings from other people while I added a little bit. You can not always have unique points and it will often be someone else's case that gets you to see their point of view. Its called a bandwagon. It happens. This might be something worth more if you called everyone else on it. I wonder why you are going after only me? Kind of strange but if I hit your radar then hope this answers that.

Could you name the other people Korts should call on it? Or did you mean he should be after

everyone

on that bandwagon?

[Cass]

Mod: What are the rules on deadline lynches?

Second this question. I looked at the rules, but there's nothing there.

Even better, of course, would be if a few more people would vote for Dynamo so we don't have to have a deadline lynch. (He's now at L-2 if I didn't miscount.)

[Cass]

I really hope Dynamo is scum after that Either way, I do not regret my vote.

[Cass]

The flavor indeed looks like EA has been targeted by two scumgroups with different MO's.

I know it's not considered canonical to examine the NK in case of a pro-town death, but I'm definitely gonna do a reread of EA in isolation, concentrating on his vote pattern, the players he attacked, and the players who attacked him.

he was a roleblocker. I doubt you'll find anything useful.

Well, him being a roleblocker would make it slightly less probable that his main suspects were mafia (because he'd have blocked them assumedly). No evidence, though.

Also, Cass makes a scum slip in the sense that he declares a case on armlx that is pretty much worth voting for at that point, yet she only FoSes him. I call her out for that, and BM jumps on me because that tell is apparently outdated according to him. This implies a connection between Cass and BM to me.

Maybe you should reread before you say things like that. I'm pretty sure I didn't vote him, because I liked my vote where it was. Also, why does this connect me to BM and not to Armlx? You really make 'scum-slips' out of the tiniest things, don't you?

FoS: Korts

I agree that Cream is pretty suspicious with calling Dynamo obv town and his responses today. I might be biased, because I really thought Dynamo would flip scum. But even if I try to forget about that, I can't see how anyone could have been

sure

he was town. Unless they're scum themselves. Though what makes me doubt the case is Armlx jumping on it. Armlx just keeps giving me bad vibes...

[Cass]

I agree that it is weird Netlava doens't seem to feel any need to defend himself. But would a scum not defend himself? And would he be so open about his motives? Argh, Wifom I suppose.

FoS: Netlava

But I have a whole list of people I find scummy right now, and I want to see some more discussion before I put my vote anywhere.

[Cass]

In related news, it may be obvious, but I'm thinking of a Skruffs-Netlava connection. I think Netlava might be our lynch today, but if either of them flips scum, the other will be my first vote the next day.

'It may be obvious?' Excuse me? You see obvious scumpairs before we even lynch one scum? Maybe I misunderstand the first part of that quote (I certainly hope so.) But the second part can't be mistaken for anything but blatant lining up of lynches. For that you win... a vote.

Vote Blakadder

I sort of like Netlava's explanation. It's annoying to get punished for being honest about your motives. It's still Wifom, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I really really don't like BM's misguided defense of Netlava. For that reason I will still keep an eye on those two.

Alright. I now agree with the Netlava wagon.

Waiting to hammer though

What? What made you suddenly agree after all? And whatever makes you think a hammer is soon to follow?

Either way, that's two instances (Csas's 'slip' on Armlx where you tried to connect her to someone else, and my attack on armlx which you tried to completely dismiss without actually looking at Armlx) that you have tried to keep the discussion from touching ARmlx too much.

I feel safe in thinking there is enough evidence in play, to ask you why you are trying to protect ARmlx so hard, and so obviously?

That is a good question. I've also been quite suspicious of Armlx both today and yesterday, and now Korts is attacking me (apparantly because I'm 'next on his list' or something). (Now wait for him to come in and call this OMGUS.)

[Cass]

seems counterproductive.

It wasn't in context of how CK was saying it. Until he said he was ok with it then, I assumed it was a soft claim of cop w/ innocent on Netlava.

No, just saw something I needed to consider.

I understand what Netlava is saying; I think he was scum trying to knock off an inno more likely than town swaying to the big wagon. Only time you sway is to hammer an inevitable wagon to prevent stalling, IMO.

Also, diction and word choice make me feel he is more scum than town.

Uhm... which words exactly make him look like scum? Because he sounds kinda honest to me and now I´m wondering if I´m overlooking something there.

[Cass]

Sorry fot not posting a lot. I've been quite busy at work.

I find netlava's most recent post strange. His case on Cephrir seems weak and taken out of context. Looks like a attempt to distract attention. The thing between SC-Skruffs-Korts is weird. It also looks like a distraction, because of the way it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I find Korts' talk about masons and connections really disturbing, and maily because of that he come sof as the most suspicious of those three. But I'm not convinced that any of them is scum (or at least they're not in my top three). In all that, Armlx still gives me the worst vibes. But in my mind, the case on Armlx is getting too tied up in the case on netlava - so perhaps I should leave that one alone for a bit and focus elsewhere.

I find Lowell suspect for declaring someone town, by bolding his name even. That doesn't seem a constructive thing to do, and it makes me a bit paranoid.

[Cass]

Way to be inconsistent, Cass. A couple pages ago you were all over me for accusing you of not daring to vote your scumbuddy, yet now I'm not even in your top three? On the other hand, you seem to have started pushing armlx since I brought up the FoS-tell again. What's your reason? Vibe, yeah. You want to look like your conviction in an armlx lynch is rock solid, but you don't want an actual wagon to build on him just because you gave proper reasons for your vote is the feeling I get.

Accusations are not scummy. I was 'all over you' for making silly scum-pairings. And there are so many scummy people in this game, that it's not easy to get in the top three If my conviction about Armlx was rock-solid, I'd already be voting him. (The actual reason for my hesitation is that in my very first game here I went aggressively after armlx, being rock-solid conviced, and he was town. There are a few people on this site who seem to have a tendency to give me tunnel vision.)

Also, many people seem to find my posts scummy. I'm not sure why this is, but I'm guessing it has something to do with this being the biggest game I've played yet, and I have trouble getting involved in all the discussions and keeping track of everyone in the game (especially with all the replacements ). It gives me the feeling that the scum are simply all lurking somewhere in the backgorund where I'll never even notice them...

About Lowell: it just seemed weird. I'd nerver seen a player point out a townie in such a way. But someone said that for Lowell that's a null-tell, so I'm dropping that point.

[Cass]

I wish people would just make a case against me instead of making posts like 'yeah... Cass seems kind of scummy, maybe I'll explain why, some day' Because I don't really have a useful response to that...

Skruffs finds Armlx suspicious, but for some posts that did not strike me as scummy at all. Imo, it is good play to ask a lurker to contribute, so I don't know why Skruffs is trying to make a case out of that? The quote about netlava is a bit more interesting, but really nothing different from what a lot of people (including armlx) have been doing all day today. (Not that the netlava wagon couldn't be scum-driven, he's obviously the easy lynch.)

[Cass]

I agree with the above. It is interesting, though. Personally I think there's one or two scum in that little list, and this post by Netlava feels like confirmation of that suspicion.

[Cass]

Well, I won't deny I'm a bit undecided. It has to do with the size of this game and the number of replacements for replacements giving me a headache.
I don't like the wagon on Netlava, nor that on myself obviously, so I dislike Cephrir making it look as if this is a dilemma. I really hope it isn't.

My vote on Blakadder perhaps hasn't the strongest of reasons, but I see no reason to move it yet. And I'd prefer to keep it on someone.

And I said those things about Dynamo because he really annoyed me and I hoped he was actually scum and not a village idiot. I don't see how that's scummy.