Mafia 84 - Crime in Cressario [GAME OVER]

[Lowell]

vote rofl

. Agree with post 4.

[Lowell]

Falcone asks a legitimate question. guy0 strikes me as someone who is going to burn himself out and need a nap in a few hours.

[Lowell]

I agree that if Armix is telling the truth then he should've definately claimed. Not confirmed innocent though.

This is pretty much the jist of it.

Does anyone here disagree with Emp's post?

I do I do!

So, to be clear, you're saying we should "accept" armlx's claim in such a way that we neither think he is or isn't necessarily scum.

Does no one see why this doesn't work? The claim IS the issue. I can't reasonably say "well, his claim seems legit, but he's behaving scummy, so I'll vote for him anyway." Nor can I say "wow, he seems really pro-town, but his claim is a lie." Asking people to put aside whether they believe the claim is really just asking people to put aside all suspicions of armlx genearally.

If the point you're trying to make is "let's move on to something else cuz role discussions are boring" then fine. But if you're trying to say "evaluate armlx WITHOUT the claim," then, well, that makes no sense.


So, that said, let me try to state my thinking clearly. I believe in armlx's innocence BECAUSE I believe his claim. Which I do because I'm a sucker for D1 claims.

[Lowell]

I don't see the case against guy0 at all at this point. He seems like textbook newbie town to me.

[Lowell]

unvote, vote caboose

. I'm shamelessly following Emp here. 125 is a busted post. When players say "we're not getting anywhere," it generally means, "we're not getting where I want us to be." I see it sometimes from scum as the votes pile up on others and they start to feel safe, then feel like their plans are being derailed.

Two other things:
1) The rofl wagon is strange. It started with a couple of random votes (mine included), and within 4 pages was like, "no one hammer yet." I mean, I like short days as much as the next guy, but why the sudden urgency? Specifically,...

2) Where did guy0 come from? This guy is opportunistic as hell.

FOS guy0

. He's crossed the line from "overenthusiastic, panicky newbie" to "opportunistic lyncher."

[Lowell]

unvote, vote guy0

. Policy lynch. Self-voting is RARELY done by non-scum. Usually it's a dying scum wanting to "prove" that the arguments against him are stupid and that he, like, totally doesn't care about this stupid game anyway!

I also put zero stock in his "claim," and armlx's "policy unvote" is bizairre. If I can get out of trouble by self-voting, causing someone else to UNVOTE, haven't I just created a mechanism to remove a vote from myself pretty much whenever I want to?

[Lowell]

Jebus' suspect list is hilariously useless.

I'm not buying the case on alvinz. His hammer was sensible, given the circumstances.

Uh, farside? Is she even in this game?

[Lowell]

RL bearing down on me this week. Will post more comprehesive post when I can.

Historically, whenever rofl doesn't know what to do he accuses me of being lurkerscum. It's easy, and it's always at least half right. That said, I'd like to see some traction on the caboose wagon. Posts 292 and 300 reek of "like me!" That rofl has been sloppy doesn't really bother me all that much.

vote caboose

[Lowell]

I agree with rofl's 400, but can't help it as yet. RL still has me tied down. Am doing my best to read along, will be active as soon as I can.

[Lowell]

I'm caught up on 2 of my games. This one is next on my list.

[Lowell]

Will update myself on things by the end of this weekend.

[Lowell]

Still here and catching up. I don't like either of the two leading wagons. Rofl has been pushing WAY too hard to be scum in a lurkerfest like this one. The alvinz case is a little better but still weak.

Someone tell me why caboose isn't a good option. Or qwints, for that matter.

[Lowell]

Actually an interesting meta on alvinz. qwints, are those all the games you found, or just the ones you want to show us?

[Lowell]

I've never heard of this role before. I suppose he could be telling the truth. I don't in any way understand his plan, regardless.

[Lowell]

Trying to follow the last few pages. I don't really understand "the plan" and how it helps. So, if no one dies we kill alvinz? How does that solve the problem of trying to trust his claim or not? Why, if alvinz is scum (and presumably, therefore, knowing whether armlx is telling the truth) would he actually go through with the plan of targetting him? And why, if alvinz isn't scum, but armlx is (and, presumably, knows that alvinz isn't) wouldn't scum just kill alvinz anyway and clear armlx of suspicion?

If anything this just seems to buy a day for scum-alvinz to clear the field of his strongest opposition or give armlx-scum a chance to basically clear himself forever.

[Lowell]

But we're going to have to have this argument again tomorrow then, and if alvinz is scum he'll have one less person (and a lot fewer votes) to deal with by then. Basically, I don't agree with your premise that those who voted for him today can be so easily relied on to tomorrow, and I REALLY don't agree with the premise that, if there are people still unsure, him not being dead tomorrow will convince them of anything.

[Lowell]

Of course, if scum have some sort of investigative role this could be even WORSE than I described...

[Lowell]

Everything qwints does is meta and superficial.

unvote, vote qwints

. The rofl case still doesn't look that strong, my guess is a lot of people find it easier to vote for an active, angry player than actually trying to think.

[Lowell]

^^^ agree with this. Lazy-ass town, this is.

[Lowell]

I'm starting to come down solidly on the side of rofl.

[Lowell]

@qwints- yeah, that's true. But it isn't easy for me to admit, in rofl's case.

[Lowell]

Vote Lowell

. Looking back at his jump onto guy0, it seems suspect. First he says he looks like a regular newbie, then he FOS's him calling him opportunistic, and then he votes him after guy0's self vote. I don't really see the sudden opportunism, and I'd think that self voting would reinforce the regular newbie idea.

Really?

Self-voting does not reinforce the regular newbie idea AT ALL. Newbie town players don't usually pull the "I leaving and taking my ball with me" shtick. Newbie town players generally get panicky, they get nervous, but usually not self-destructive. There's much more pride at stake as scum than as town. As town if you get lynched, it's the town's fault. As scum if you get lynched, they

caught

you.

[Lowell]

Just posting to say I'm still here. There's a decent chance I'll be able to post something constructive by Monday.

[Lowell]

Ignore 858. I found some time today. All the way back to page 9, starting with day 2:

217- alvinz strangely votes, then unvotes, guy0
224- rofl votes caboose
226- jebus makes a useless list of suspects [-, superficial]
228- qwints votes alvinz for hammer
230- falcone calls out jebus' useless list
233- farside votes rofl
234- alvinz votes falcone
235- qwints asks if we should discuss nightkills [-, either do or don't, this looks like trying not to step on anyone's toes]
236- armlx votes alvinz
237- caboose votes rofl for erratic play
292- coboose softclaims game-breaking role [-]
304- matt votes rofl [-, already backing out of his vote even before he votes]
316- Lowell votes caboose for buddying to everyone
321- qwints votes rofl for not being helpful [-, narrowminded view of helpful]
344- alvinz calls falcone scum, comes unglued
350- falcone votes alvinz [-, implying he's worried about jester/bomb??]
351- rofl comes to alvinz' defense [-, unlike his other posts]
352- rofl points out the badness of 350 [+]
385- jebus votes rofl for not giving reasons for votes
387- rofl leads with 5 votes (farside, caboose, matt, qwints, jebus)
392/394- caboose gets in strange meta-argument [-, looks like reaching, pointless distraction]
400- rofl wants to attack lurkers, fears lurkerscum
430- matt says alvinz isn't scum
448- more metacomments by caboose on day length [-, claims to hate meta-talk]
452- sineish votes alvinz
458- matt votes alvinz for being a distraction
467- rofl, alvinz tied with 4 votes each
475- qwints confirm votes rofl [-, last 3 posts have said the same thing]
491- qwints metas alvinz to prove him town
492- lindisfarne votes alvinz
500- jebus votes alvinz
507- alvinz claims BODYGUARD
520- armlx unvotes, votes jebus
550s- discussion of plan to have alvinz target armlx
597- matt mentions he doesnt see caboose's softclaim [-, very strange thing to focus on]
606- jebus votes rofl
609- natirasha votes rofl
625- Lowell unvotes, votes qwints for flying above the radar
650- rofl unvotes, votes qwints
656- long pbpa of qwints by rofl
658- alvinz votes qwints
659- qwints defends
676- caboose votes qwints, agrees w/ rofl
701- matt votes Lowell for jumping on guy wagon
724- insanely long, unreadable post
736- rofl and qwints lead w/ 4 votes each
748- qwints claims retired cop
749- caboose unvotes, votes jebus [-, protecting qwints? vote seems w/o cause]
751- rofl unvotes, votes jebus
753- qwints unvotes, votes jebus
754- alvinz unvotes, votes jebus
757- lindisfarne votes jebus [-, "we'll see how this pans out"??]
767- natirasha votes jebus, lynch-2
768- matt votes jebus, lynch-1, unsure about qwints' claim
771- qwints lynched at deadline, mason
772- alvinz dead, bodyguard, lindis dead, townie
773- rofl votes farside
775- rofl sees missing kill, FOSs armlx
776- farside votes rofl [-, OMGUS]
779- qwints investigated alvinz [why?]
784- armlx votes rofl
794- qwints votes rofl
800- natirasha says farside targetted linisfarne, votes farside
802- armlx votes farside
804- matt votes farside, calls it "interesting" [-, bizairre response]
805- farside calls nat a liar, appeals to mod [- -, non-scum would KNOW nat is lying, not question mod]
813- rofl, exactly [+ +]
816- matt agrees with rofl [-, following like hell]
821- qwints votes farside
828- caboose unvotes, votes farside
829- farside says mod no help, votes nat [-, desperate]
832- matt yells at farside [-, looks like more distancing]

Some thoughts, with apologies in advance if they're hard to follow:

1) Farside or Nat is scum. Probably not both (I agree w/ SK-- or even just PGO N1 kill-- more likely than 2 scum groups). I don't see why Nat would lie, exposing himself as scum once farside turned up town. So it's pretty clear,

unvote, vote farside

.

2) I'm not as interested in who OPPOSES the farside lynch (nobody?) as much as who over-eagerly supports it. For this

FOS Matt

. There are a LOT of scummy posts coming from his direction. First, in 304, he votes rofl while almost simultaneously apologizing for it. His 597 is weirdly placed, and he seems to be too interested in another player's softclaim from pages before. He attacked me in 701 and then more or less forgot about it when no one rushed to his side. The more damning posts, though, are 804, 816, and 832. Matt jumped in almost immediately after nat's claim to vote farside, but called the situation "interesting." Why the sudden vote and then the cryptic "who knoooows" response. In 816 he quickly agrees with rofl, who has been the leader of the farside = scum posts. 832 takes the cake. It's rude and gratuitous. He's distancing like hell. He wanted at first to (a) look like he's voting with the crowd, while (b) still leaving his options open in case farside came up with something. When that didn't happen, he decided to (c) hammer away instead, so we'll all see just how ACTIVE he is in KILLING SCUM.

3) Other persons of interest are

armlx

and

rofl

. I'm having the same nagging feeling about armlx that rofl has in 775. However, part of me thinks that seed might have been placed by rofl in anticipation of armlx being around at endgame. Rofl's FOS rather than vote looks like a setup for later more than an attempt to win any support to the idea. If rofl wants armlx dead, he wants to wait until endgame to do it, when it might be easier to make happen. As well,

caboose

is still trying awfully hard to make friends. I don't like any of his early D2 behavior and his softclaim was horribly scummy. For some reason 392, 394 and 448 all strike me as derailments. 749 looks like an attempt to buddy specifically with qwints, which could prove especially dangerous if qwints is a cop.

4) I believe the

qwints

claim, since it came before he was under any serious duress. I don't really understand the logic of investigating someone we thought would turn up dead anyway, however.

[Lowell]

@matt- the point is you're opportunistic, not that you're necessarily wrong.

@rofl- the fact that your vote was elsewhere is what makes me think you could be setting up armlx for later.

[Lowell]

Hmm it seems I'm dead. Carry on, then.