Mafia 82: International (Game Over)

[Cream147]

Hello people. Will read game over the next day. Hopefully my predecessor has been a good boy so far this game!

[Cream147]

God, all this conversation about the treaty/pact/whatever...it's rather cool if I say so myself! I hope it's still going now, it just makes the game a little bit different. (I like posting while I'm reading, sorry if this results in horribly outdated posts, or double/triple/quadruple posts.)

[Cream147]

God, all this conversation about the treaty/pact/whatever...it's rather cool if I say so myself! I hope it's still going now, it just makes the game a little bit different. (I like posting while I'm reading, sorry if this results in horribly outdated posts, or double/triple/quadruple posts.)

Its not going on anymore people disected the pact so much it became utterly useless to the town and was disbanded.

OMG SPOILERS!

On a serious note, I'm actually getting fed up of reading about the pact now, so yes, it was definitely overly discussed.

[Cream147]

I've finished reading...and now I realise I shouldn't have bothered doing all that reading at once to rush before the deadline because...well...the gavel was slammed before I finished reading, or at least if my calculations are correct. I've got a few things to say anyway.

Firstly, I'm glad I've replaced someone who has put extremely little content in this game. It means I start from a pretty much blank slate, which is good. He did say that 'irrelevant' wasn't a word and I really truly apologise for any grievances that may have caused (I'm aware he corrected his mistake the next post).

BM, I loved playing with you before, due to the way you kept the game active at all times, but reading a game with you in it isn't so great, truth be told. I have never seen a sextuple post until I read through this game. And those 'quote monsters' as someone on Page 21 said of yours are just hideous. Still, I think you are town. There was nothing scummy about the pact, and I actually don't think there was any need to not go through with it. It was certainly overanalysed, but not broken because of that.

I think Dynamo has been poor throughout the first day. I think he is town, though I must say I am really annoyed by the way he is trying to tweak heartstrings. Seriously, I hate it when people do that. Don't accept your punishment gracefully, defend until there is nothing left! That's what I think.

There have been players that I haven't liked, however, I'm not sure whether that's because I don't like their playstyle or whether I think they are scummy. Cass sticks out the most. I think I will have another look at her tomorrow.

My parting note is something which I really don't like.

Unvote, vote: DynamoXI

An L-1 vote (if my maths is correct) without any justification doesn't ring town with me. It rings opportunistic and scum...

[Cream147]

Very well then, I am mistaken (Battle Mage unvoted you), but you are at L-1, so be very careful. I really don't like your temptation to self-hammer.

Could I ask why? Its clear to me that my presence is no longer wanted here so yeah...

If you are town, it would be detrimental to your winning cause to self-hammer. Please do not self-hammer.

Don't accept your punishment gracefully, defend until there is nothing left!

[Cream147]

If you are town, it would be detrimental to your winning cause to self-hammer. Please do not self-hammer.

If I don't get lynched now (which idk how that could happen) later on (possibly in lylo) scum could use all the plausible cases against me to win, something that I think I can take care of right now.

Do not self-hammer. You may get hammered, but let's have you hammered at a time appropriate for the town, rather than now as a self-hammer. Trust me, just wait.

[Cream147]

Let me remind you all that Dynamo's "go ahead and lynch me" rhetoric wasn't some last-ditch effort to avoid the noose. He absolutely could have put up an actual defense against the things he was being accused of, but instead gave up without even trying. Why in the HELL would scum choose to do that? And I swear if you call that WIFOM I will throw you down a well and tell an official you fell down a different well. For it to be a WIFOM gambit he'd have to think there was a decent chance that a conceding appeal to emotion would actually work, in spite of the minor detail that EVERY FUCKING CONCEDING APPEAL TO EMOTION IN THE HISTORY OF MAFIA WAS AS MISERABLE A FAILURE AS THIS ONE HAS BEEN. There is no emoticon that rolls its eyes like I'm doing right now.

I've seen town give up and I've seen scum give up, and Dynamo is textbook town giving up.

I agree with you here actually. I'm almost certain that Dynamo is town, based on his actions. Unfortunately, this 'appeal to emotion' stuff doesn't ever help, as you say, so it's unlikely that the obviousness of the fact that he is town will cause a change of lynch for today. Of course, this could all be WIFOM *shot*

[Cream147]

I agree with you here actually. I'm almost certain that Dynamo is town, based on his actions. Unfortunately, this 'appeal to emotion' stuff doesn't ever help, as you say, so it's unlikely that the obviousness of the fact that he is town will cause a change of lynch for today. Of course, this could all be WIFOM *shot*

Don't get me wrong, I don't think discussion about it being WIFOM should be off limits or anything. It's just that all too often, I see someone waving off arguments like the one in my previous post on the simple basis that he

could

be trying to WIFOM, as if that refutes the argument that he isn't.

I can't imagine someone only 1 month in, so very possibly their first game as scum, attempting that WIFOM approach anyway. If anyone is going to try that strategy, it would be an experienced player.

[Cream147]

I stated my intention in my previous post to vote dynamo. I checked the vote count, and it seemed that most of the people left were fresh replacements/inactives, so rather than wait for them, I decided that it's better to move the game along.

But your intention to vote while you were thinking he was not scum is strange in itself. I don't think I did this last page so now would be an appropriate time.

Vote: Netlava

[Cream147]

L-2, and I'm leaning not scum on Dynamo. I'll wait and see what other people think before voting (if necessary)

HoS: Netlava

The only reason this isnt a vote is because this could well be a typo. Other than this incident, i really don't see a case on Netlava, so can one of the voters please summarise for me?

BM

Well there isn't a huge case apart from that, that I know of anyway. I just assume it wasn't a typo, and as you said you would vote if it weren't a typo, so I would and have done the same. Admittedly, Netlava's defense, on a reread, does possibly ring that it was a typo.

I don't understand this response to what amounts to appeal to emotion.

You seriously think that Dynamo is still scum?

[Cream147]

L-2, and I'm leaning not scum on Dynamo. I'll wait and see what other people think before voting (if necessary)

HoS: Netlava

The only reason this isnt a vote is because this could well be a typo. Other than this incident, i really don't see a case on Netlava, so can one of the voters please summarise for me?

BM

Well there isn't a huge case apart from that, that I know of anyway. I just assume it wasn't a typo, and as you said you would vote if it weren't a typo, so I would and have done the same. Admittedly, Netlava's defense, on a reread, does possibly ring that it was a typo.

I don't understand this response to what amounts to appeal to emotion.

You seriously think that Dynamo is still scum?

why haven't you Unvoted then?

BM

Fine!

Unvote

. But when Netlava tells us the truth, that it was not a typo, then I'll be revoting immediately.

[Cream147]

how likely do you REALLY think that is? rofl

BM

...oh, for god's sake, it looks like we're going to be forced down the boring, incorrect, conventional route aren't we. We're going to be forced to lynch Dynamo.

[Cream147]

You seriously think that Dynamo is still scum?

Do you mean 'still think that Dynamo is scum?' Players can't usually change sides halfway through.

I noticed that gramatical error after sending the message but I didn't think it was worth an EBWOP.

[Cream147]

Ok, I can't see us stopping a Dynamo lynch annoyingly, because some people apparently doubt his alignment. Fair enough, but guys, we have 9 days to do it, so it's still perfectly doable.

[Cream147]

I still don't see why people suddenly think Dynamo is town....

I don't see why you are being so stubborn. I'll admit Dynamo has played very poorly today. He could've:

A) Made better posts
B) Posted more often
C) Defended himself when he got in trouble

These are parts of his game which he can work on. However, his reactions to the allegations very much comply with those of a frustrated townie who doesn't know how to get himself out of trouble and I think that is quite plain by reading his posts. If he were a more experienced player, I might be a bit more skeptical, but I can't imagine any new scum doing what Dynamo has done. That is all.

[Cream147]

However, his reactions to the allegations very much comply with those of a frustrated townie who doesn't know how to get himself out of trouble

See, I don't see the difference with "frustrated townie" and "frustrated scum". There really isn't one usually. People just assume the former as they see it about 3 times as often.

Scum don't get frustrated anywhere near as much because they know deep inside their lynch is justified, whereas frustrated town know they shouldn't be lynched and often get frustrated that the other players can not see it.

[Cream147]

Much as I don't really like the way that Raider posts little content, I find that in other games that I am in with him, he's the same. I think it's just his posting style, rather than an indication of his alignment.

[Cream147]

Much as I don't really like the way that Raider posts little content, I find that in other games that I am in with him, he's the same. I think it's just his posting style, rather than an indication of his alignment.

Ongoing or can you link us to some examples?

Ongoing, I'm afraid.

[Cream147]

For the record I hate when people use meta for information. People can and do play differently game to game as I have and I currently am doing. Feel free to use whatever you find but I would not put everything you have into it.

But your playstyle here agrees with your playstyle in other games. I would understand your argument if you were playing differently in this game, but that you're playing the same, makes a pattern.

The meta I'm giving of you

supports

you anyway.

[Cream147]

Prodding MafiaMann, Netlava,

Battle Mage

, earthworm, Untitled, and nhat.

Shocking, by the way.

[Cream147]

- I will be taking a nice long look at a few people here if Dynamo flips scum.

I'll be taking a nice long look at my scumdar myself...

[Cream147]

I hope I never come in another game with you ever again Dynamo. Bye.

[Cream147]

Right then, so as we all knew would happen, Dynamo flipped town. I have no sympathy for him, but I feel that scum must have constituted a reasonable bit of his wagon. I'm going to reread his wagon I think, and also the talk that we had when the wagon started to dissipate, and then the following section where it increased into a hammer. I'm sure I can find scum somewhere in there. Netlava's vote has already been picked up on and noted, and I think it's possible that there's more in that wagon.

[Cream147]

Right then, so as we all knew would happen, Dynamo flipped town.

I have no sympathy for him, but I feel that scum must have constituted a reasonable bit of his wagon. I'm going to reread his wagon I think, and also the talk that we had when the wagon started to dissipate, and then the following section where it increased into a hammer. I'm sure I can find scum somewhere in there. Netlava's vote has already been picked up on and noted, and I think it's possible that there's more in that wagon.

FoS: Cream

He was against the wagon all the way, I doubt that's anything more than a mild tell in his case.

I have to disagree. I always think it's suspicious to defend someone suspicious that turns up town.

Then why didn't you FoS me yesterday? I think it was just obvious that he was town.

[Cream147]

Right then, so as we all knew would happen, Dynamo flipped town.

I have no sympathy for him, but I feel that scum must have constituted a reasonable bit of his wagon. I'm going to reread his wagon I think, and also the talk that we had when the wagon started to dissipate, and then the following section where it increased into a hammer. I'm sure I can find scum somewhere in there. Netlava's vote has already been picked up on and noted, and I think it's possible that there's more in that wagon.

FoS: Cream

He was against the wagon all the way, I doubt that's anything more than a mild tell in his case.

I have to disagree. I always think it's suspicious to defend someone suspicious that turns up town.

Then why didn't you FoS me yesterday? I think it was just obvious that he was town.

He hadn't flipped yet.

I don't get why it's suspicious, but ok.

[Cream147]

I agree with everything hasdgfas has said today. Cream's first post about Dyanmo is "I don't like scummy thing X and Y he did, but he is town".

this post seriously misrepresents me. I never said anything about him being scummy. The reason I 'had no sympathy' for him was because of the self-hammer...

[Cream147]

this post seriously misrepresents me. I never said anything about him being scummy. The reason I 'had no sympathy' for him was because of the self-hammer...

No, your first post in the entire game. Not today. You basically said his play was poor over all, and his appeal to emotion was scummy, but you thought he was town.

Sorry there. Same thing though, I never called him scummy. I said his play was 'poor' and that I was annoyed by the way he was trying to tweak heartstrings.

[Cream147]

Sometimes, though, I vote people who I don't think are scum simply for the sake of a lynch. Tis just a playstyle.

I know Netlava shouldn't be let off for so easily for voting someone he thought was town, but does this quote make you think a bit more deeply? It suggests to me that it's possibly a mistake in logic rather than scumminess.

[Cream147]

So Netlava voted for Dynamo, then later admitted that he didn't think Dynamo was scum, and that he voted for him simply for the sake of a lynch, claiming this as his playstyle.

Its even better as this is actually what he said, not an interpretation of his actios.

I can't believe people are overlooking it but doesn't the very fact that he himself said it make you wonder whether it's just poor play? I find some striking similarities between this wagon and the Dynamo one.

[Cream147]

I can't believe people are overlooking it but doesn't the very fact that he himself said it make you wonder whether it's just poor play?

WIFOM

Fine, but it's my opinion that my side of the WIFOM is correct

I find some striking similarities between this wagon and the Dynamo one.

Explain.

Two things.

a) The reasons for the bandwagon are in my opinion, more likely to be poor play, rather than scummy play

b) The people on it. I believe there are 7 people on the netlava wagon currently. 6 of them were also on they Dynamo wagon yesterday, the other one is a replacement, he may have been on the dynamo wagon had he have been playing yesterday.

Not necessary important points, just simple observations. I think the player one is very interesting.

[Cream147]

I dont trust anything that moves fast

I don't trust the Netlava reason, for this reason among others. Unfortunately, any argument I put forward will be waved away as WIFOM (and one already has I believe), and that is exactly how it is for Netlava. He is in an indefensible position!

[Cream147]

EBWOP: reason should say bandwagon in my last post

[Cream147]

I don't trust the Netlava reason, for this reason among others. Unfortunately, any argument I put forward will be waved away as WIFOM (and one already has I believe), and that is exactly how it is for Netlava. He is in an indefensible position!

Not quite indefensible, but we're not there yet.

You don't think it's indefensible. Given Netlava's explanation, I would have to disagree with you there

[Cream147]

@ Cream can you explain why ne is in an indefensible position? I dont understand.

Netlava has explained very thoroughly about that vote he made. He explains it due to poor play. No one believes him. I do believe him, because Netlava could have easily lied and said it was a typo earlier, and gotten away with it, but hey, 'WIFOM!', everyone calls out. There is no way to now argue Netlava out of trouble without resorting to WIFOM. That is why Netlava is in an indefensible position. I'm still examining both the Netlava and Dynamo wagons, because I think at least 2 people who jumped onto both of those wagons are scum.

[Cream147]

What would you have us do, Cream?

Sorry for not answering this speedily...I'm not sure at the moment, I can't make out who I think is the scummiest. Armlx is worrying me, but he worries me every single game I play with him, so that probably doesn't mean much. However, the Netlava bandwagon is interesting, I really do need to look more at it. I should stop being so lazy.

@Cephrir: Honestly, don't you think if I were scum I wouldn't be defending Netlava because of the couple of FOS's I received at the start of the day for my defense of Dynamo. "WIFOM" I hear you cry...sometimes WIFOM is just taken too far.

[Cream147]

Netlava's play is scummy, and everyone has been defending it by saying its too scummy to be scum, which is just bull shit.

That's not my defense. I just believe that it's just a mistake in Netlava's game theory. That's what his posts seem to suggest anyway.

[Cream147]

Sorry, haven't been posting (skool has just started) and of course, since the wagon is on me makes me not feel like wanting to post

Strengthen up, when there's a wagon on me, that makes me want to post more!

[Cream147]

Right guys, I'm so so sorry I haven't posted lately. I've been on an unforseen VLA lately. Will make a real post shortly, but need to post this in all my games first.

[Cream147]

This looks like a day of competing wagons.

What brought you to this conclusion given the fact that at the time of this post Cass only had two votes - the same number as armlx - and Netlava had (has) seven?

Well actually, I think that Cass' wagon is ripe, fresh, and full of potential (in terms of getting more votes I mean), whereas the Netlava wagon is dying. It's been stuck on 7 for a long time. I'm going to have to reread a few things to sew whether I agree with a wagon on Cass or not.

[Cream147]

Well actually, I think that Cass' wagon is ripe, fresh, and full of potential (in terms of getting more votes I mean), whereas the Netlava wagon is dying.

what

It's been stuck on 7 for a long time.

And this says nothing to you at all? A lot of people are bemoaning how weak it is without actually stating specifically why (you included).

I don't think you quite understood my point. I was saying that just because Cass is only on 2 votes doesn't mean that the wagon is not going to compete with Netlava. You dismissed that possibility very quickly. It was nothing to do with my feelings on either of the players, although I do of course, disagree with the Netlava wagon.

If Netlava is lynched and flips scum I'm going to be taking a very hard look at some of you indeed.

Someone said earlier if Netlava was town they'd look at me...someone else again said I was in a no win situation...it seems that way. Does disagreeing with wagons make you scum?

[Cream147]

Now, you know I said a while back that I was scanning the Dynamo and Netlava wagons for clues. I think I've got a good one here.

I dont see a real case on Netlava. It is kind of odd but with a game this size I dont see why people will not be jumpy at first. I still like my vote on Dynamo.

By this point, Netlava had of course already made

that

post, which as far as I can see, is the center of the entire case on him. Where did the turning point come when it all of a sudden became a 'real' case?

I've had a quick skim-through raider's posts since and when the Netlava bandwagon formed, he seemed to magically change his mind here.

I agree with the netlava bandwagon. I just dont want to see the bandwagon get that large so fast. I would like to see how Netlava posts today before adding my vote.

Thus far I agree with hasdgfas. I dont think the FoS was needed but it did help get the point accross.

There was a mention of lack of posting which caused him to put a vote on, but that wasn't what magically made the case a 'real' one. That's far worse and more opportunistic than many of the other Dynamo wagonner's who conceded that Netlava was worth a look the following day.

I'm going to have a closer look at Raider I think, I haven't really enjoyed his play anyway (his wishy-washiness about joining the Netlava wagon for example).

[Cream147]

I was ok with the Netlava lynch I have never said I was agianst it.

I dont see a real case on Netlava.

Just saying.

Thank you for writing my response to Raider for me. And in style!

[Cream147]

If you recall when I said I dont see the case. That means I didnt understand was the fuss was about. It was explained and then I agreed with it. Not seeing a case one someone means just that. If I didnt agree with the case I would have said I dont agree with it. Just because I didnt catch on as fast as other people did means nothing.

It really does not look like that to me. I don't know anyone who dismisses cases that they don't understand as not 'real'. I myself, dismiss cases which I think have poor justification as not real. And speaking of poor justification!

Unvote, Vote: Raider

Getting kinda bored of today. Netlava is obviously a bad lynch, but i guess the wagon itself has reaped something. Nonetheless, i think we are dragging things out a little...

BM

Am I to understand that you voted Raider because you were bored? Interesting reasoning. Also, people have criticised me for a lack of reasoning whilst defending Netlava, but come on! Saying it's 'obvious' is just an easy way out. 7 people clearly disagree with you, so you might want to think about expanding on that as well.

[Cream147]

Even if it was wrong, voting without giving a reason is not scummy.

Why not?

I thought it was for a while as well, but there could be many reasons for a vote without stating it right away. Let me just name a couple:
1) You're a cop with a guilty, but don't want to come right out and say that
2) You're suspicious of someone and want to see their reactions to a strange move, such as voting without giving a reason.

In both of those situations, I wouldn't consider voting without stating a reason to be scummy.
99% of the time there is a reason, even if it isn't explicitly stated.

Also, by 'wrong', I meant SC being wrong about BM not giving a reason. Not the best word choice there.

It still seems like it makes an easy place for scum to place a vote and blame it on one of those reasons to make them still seem town. If someone doesnt say why then someone, not always the person being voted for, will ask why. The best thing the voter can be hoping for would be an over exaggerated OMGUS vote. It just seems to be that it can give a free pass or a home for their vote.

Nevertheless, BM hasn't alluded to those reasons mentioned since his vote, and has actually put legitimate reasons forward for his vote. I don't see any problem with his vote anymore.

[Cream147]

Well, I'm still undecided on raider. I can see him not understanding the case.

What do you mean by needs less kool-aid? And it is shaky, seeing how everything can be called a distraction from one's favored lynch. Plus, you outright claimed he lied. I'm not sure how much stronger you could get from that.

I personally think the case on you is and was very simple from the moment it was proposed.

[Cream147]

Cream, do you agree or disagree with said case.

While at first, I most certainly preferred it to the Dynamo lynch, Netlava's defense and in particular the non-use of easy escape routes that were laid out by certain people makes me think that Netlava is not the right lynch for today (I know you've already called WIFOM on this). That doesn't change the simplicity of the case at all though.

[Cream147]

Please tell where exactly have I been going after "targets of opportunity" and why they are considered opportunistic.

To be honest, I think you need to take a step back, and reconsider your game. Making posts like this is certainly not helping your chances of making it to the end of today live.

In fact, Knight of Cydonia seems to have added a new layer to the Netlava case, what with the opportunistic voting. I'm going to keep my faith in Netlava for now, but I'm certainly not as confident with Netlava as with Dynamo anymore...

[Cream147]

Oh for God's sake. No need to have a tantrum about it.

[Cream147]

Hmm... so let's see... I've thought Cass was scum for a while now, but I have to change my opinion because her wagon has the most chance of overtaking mine. Sounds good to me.

Guess I need to stop "pushing" this raider case too.

This isn't going to get you anywhere. Calm down. I'll accept what you have to say on Cass, but you were a touch flippity-floppity in regards to Raider.

[Cream147]

18. Citizen Karne (replacing Tovarish)

Vote: Citizen Karne

This is the tantrum I was speaking off.

Random voting on the 63rd page == throwing a tantrum

[Cream147]

How accusing me of throwing a tantrum helpful in any way? I may be a bit annoyed at times when posting, but I still make my point without being too offensive.

The point is that asking people to justify their posts is not something I need to reconsider.

How is random voting on page 63 helpful in anyway?

[Cream147]

ok, I'm here, and I'm quite honestly shocked at the (lack of) quality in the conversation of today thus far.

I disagree with most of the votes, and there is too much setup speculation going on and I don't think it's helping anyone (well it may be helping scum). There has been barely any discussion on yesterday's lynch, and the implications it has.

Sorry for not adding anything to the table myself as of yet, but I shall do this shortly. At the moment, I am checking through a couple of people's defenses, I will report my findings when I am done with that.

[Cream147]

Skitzer, I never got that prod. Sorry for making you prod me so many times though, that's not good of me.

The case on StrangerCoug is acceptable. I'm not totally convinced by it, but in my opinion, it's much better than the Dynamo and Netlava cases.