Mafia 87 - New Age Mafia - Game Over!

[Tom Mason]

Okay, tried my best to catch up to speed. I admit, I started that whole post-war between Sche and Percy but gave up. From the posts by those who have been playing longer than an hour, it seems I missed very little. If I need to at some point for the record, I will go back to look.

That being said, I think my wagon is too good to pass up for the mafia, so I doubt it was a complete waste.

So now you're trying to make yourself a martyr?

Not to speak for Sche, but I see his point. If he is town and enough other players are convinced to lynch him, the mafia would relish the opportunity to stand by them. I think it is obvious, it is what happens when the town make a glaring mistake that can be capitalized upon.

I do not think it is about being a martyr at all -- at least not by choice.

Where do I stand? I am looking at Der Hammer right now. When I read his early posts in the phase citing people on his suspicion list, it did not sit well with me. Most of the posts he made were to say "Hey, you are on my list too." How many people do you want to put on this list of yours without any substance?

I still have some more thought to put into everything, but right now that is where my gut tells me to place my vote. I think DH is at L-4 right now?

[Tom Mason]

I think DH is at L-4 right now?

Both Derhammer and Sche are at L-3 from my countl

Sorry, I got mixed with my other game and was thinking 10 votes needed, not 9.

Interesting to see no vote from Sche on DH. I thought he voted for him, but must have just been an FoS. That or I am pretending to see things that do not exist.

[Tom Mason]

I find Gerrundus hammer a little suspicious, did you really not know how many votes Der hammer had on him?

You would think with the line "There's always tomorrow" at the bottom that he did.

[Tom Mason]

If I remember my MD threads correctly, they're like Millers for Trackers; if they get tracked, they'll be seen to target whoever dies that night.

Never seen them used in a game before, but maybe that's what makes it "New Age", eh?

Gonna

Vote: al4xz

because I

really

don't like his "Oh God, I'm so sorry for hammering!" post, it definitely strikes me as coming from someone who already knew the Der Hammer lynch was a bad one.

al4xz is not the one who hammered. The hammer was by Gerrendus.

So, that is who I am looking at right now. He placed the final vote, then claimed he did not know it was the deciding vote.

So either he was not paying attention or he knew and is trying to cover it up. And if he is not paying attention, I think it is just reckless play -- which is not at all helpful.

[Tom Mason]

I do not trust either of them. The case against al4xz is a stronger argument, I will agree with that.

al4xz - you are on the hot seat to try and clarify how you did not realize you had a vote on Der Hammer... and why you voted for him when you clearly seemed to not want to?

[Tom Mason]

I want to know how in 24 HOURS he could forget that he already voted for Der Hammer... especially when an updated vote count was posted between both his voting posts.

Tells me someone is: (a) not paying attention, or (b) reaching for excuses.

- Tom Mason

[Tom Mason]

I want to know how in 24 HOURS he could forget that he already voted for Der Hammer... especially when an updated vote count was posted between both his voting posts.

Tells me someone is: (a) not paying attention, or (b) reaching for excuses.

- Tom Mason

Have it your way. Think what you want. Not everyone can remember everything. Have you ever heard the expression, "people don't notice what's right underneath their noses?"

It was not a matter of remembering, it was a matter of taking five seconds to check the voting. You made two mistakes in that process... (1) You thought you had not already voted for Der Hammer and (2) you thought that you helped to hammer Der Hammer.

I do not like your reaction because it makes it seem like you took nothing into consideration until AFTER the fact. You were more than happy to make the move and then think about what you did. When, if you are scum, you do not need to think of your vote.

And to those who question the witch-hunt of Scheherazade, I do not disagree that his play has been erratic. But something about this situation does not sit well with me at the moment.

Vote: al4xz

[Tom Mason]

I think ZazieR echoes a little of what I have said. I have nothing new to really add right now. If al4xz would have had the voting issue happen over a span of time substantially longer than 24 hours, I would buy the whole "I forgot" spiel.

And Gerrendus, I do not think you are helping yourself either in this situation. You and al4xz are essentially fighting the same battle. My vote only goes to him because having already voted, I would expect him to be more aware of the entire situation than someone just placing a vote. This is not to say I think you both should have been paying attention.

[Tom Mason]

i think i'm the only lurker who actually WANTS people to acknowledge my existence in this game, but that apparently ain't happenin'

*runs and hides in lurkerdom again*

Add some thoughts then. Where do you stand on al4xz?

What other things do you draw from what you read?

- Tom Mason

[Tom Mason]

Both Jazz and Sche need to be more concise...

You both give me a headache. All the words end up blurring.

[Tom Mason]

@Scheherazade: I am assuming you do not have much more to say regarding al4xz right now? You seem to maintain that Jazz is a better bet. Could you summarize what makes Jazz better to lynch than al4xz since none of us can make it through your back-and-forth banter without falling asleep?

@Gerrendus: If not al4xz, then who?

[Tom Mason]

al4xz - I find him quite suspicious. I don't like his defenses that seem to try and do two things at once: say what he did was a mistake, and claim that because he made a mistake, he can't be scum.


On the al4xz/Gerrendus discussion, ribwich said:

If Scheh were town, I don't think they would have been making those comments. I don't even think they would have bothered changing their vote, since a lynch on either Scheh or Der would have essentially been the same. Why risk getting more attention on yourself unless you were protecting your partner?

...and I completely agree.

It honestly seems to me like one of Gerrendus and al4xz rushed the lynch on Der Hammer to protect Scheherazade. Two of Sche's biggest critics (myself and strife) were then executed in the night.

And let's not forget al4xz's 'Slayer's Gambit' yesterday:

I was trying to act like a scummy guy so you would make a bad reaction and try to push the shit to me.

Overall, I think that al4xz is making a lot of 'mistakes' and 'bad plays' that seem to benefit the scum, and happen to protect Scheherazade at the same time.

So, while you believe al4xz is "protecting" Scheh and making more mistakes, bad plays, and benefiting the scum... You want to vote for Scheh instead?

I think your above reasoning clarifies that your vote should go the other way. You have me confused completely on your logic. The only part I understand is below:

I'm going to

Vote: Scheherazade

. I feel that both Scheherazade and al4xz are very likely scum, but I'd like to keep them both alive for a little longer to see if any more evidence of their guilt and/or co-operation falls out rather than put al4xz at L-1. Don't want someone else making a 'mistake' and denying us info.

Right... let us not vote one out quickly and see someone else hammer. But while I understand it, I do not necessarily agree with it. If you are so convinced of their guilt and potential cooperation, your apprehension is a bit strange.

[Tom Mason]

Checking in...I've got a presentation tomorrow and I will post after I give that.
-Caboose

Good luck, I already gave two presentations this week.

I hate the end of the semester.

[Tom Mason]

@Scheherazade: I am assuming you do not have much more to say regarding al4xz right now? You seem to maintain that Jazz is a better bet. Could you summarize what makes Jazz better to lynch than al4xz since none of us can make it through your back-and-forth banter without falling asleep?

2. I don't want to end the day before the town has had a look at more players. I feel that some players have posted enough to give me a comfortable indication of their alignments either way.

Who do you want to hear from? Prod some people in the thread because otherwise we likely are not going to hear from them.

[Tom Mason]

EBWOP:

I do not like your attempt to buy time for al4xz. That is exactly how I see this, much like Vi has stated.

You have been assumed to be linked with al4xz already and you only continue to perpetuate that idea. You are entertaining the notion everytime you post and defend al4xz, whether you intend to or not.

Right now, it gives me the impression you are trying to open the flood gates to more suspicious to be spread with the hope that someone says something stupid to turn the tables on them and off of al4xz.

[Tom Mason]

It's time for an al4xz claim.

Vote:al4xz

Are you kidding me?

It is far too stupid of a move for Puta to make though. It begs us to vote for him, but I think it is just stupidity, not scummy.

[Tom Mason]

Request to Mod:

No posts from al4xz since Sunday... So, maybe time for a prod?

He is on the chopping block, afterall.

[Tom Mason]

@ PutaPuta: Sigh, you are either going to get us killed or yourself killed. I prefer the latter.

Unvote: al4xz

He will not be forgotten. If someone replaces him, they will have to carry the weight next phase.

Right now, I think this has to happen, despite what I said earlier just thinking Puta Puta was playing like a fool.

Vote: Puta Puta

[Tom Mason]

also just a note the fact that everyone quickly jumped off the alx4z wagon and unto mine when we were both unhelpful to town (lol) is suspicious, seems like scums trying to save their scum partner.

It is suspicious that we all turned to you who was being unhelpful and aggravating?

[Tom Mason]

So if no one is the mason in the end... Odds are we were duped and Puta was lying.

- Tom Mason

[Tom Mason]

Wow... That was quick.

We lost two people who were replacements: Percy replaced TAX and armlx replaced al4xz. And we lost one person who was very lengthy in arguing about nothing.

Jazz, you were flat wrong in the end about Sche.

My plan now is to re-read the reactions to Puta Puta and look at who did not vote for him and why. Or maybe why some people did vote for him.

[Tom Mason]

Personally, I think this is an easy lynch from the standpoint of what I have seen happen in the last two days.

Why? Let me explain my stance.

Gerrendus hammered Der Hammer claiming he never noticed he was the hammering vote. This is all following a plea not to hammer DH until people had the opportunity for more discussion and response from DH. It also comes after Gerrendus spent the better part of the day advocating a lynch of Zade. Both of them turned up town. And after Night Two, coincidentally two people he put in his targets were eliminated.

This brings us to Day Two's lynch, where he continued to pressure Zade despite the vast majority being focused on al4xz as the day progressed. Okay, fine. He did not agree with a lynch of al4xz, that can be respected. And he certainly did not want to make the same mistake two days in a row by hammering a town member -- right?

But the tables turned against Puta Puta, who was being a very unhelpful player and being a hazard to the town's play. It took me the better part of the day to get behind the idea of lynching Puta Puta, but his play was just poor and, as I said, a hazard to the town -- even if he was town. He offered no help or real explanations to the game. And we see in the end, he flipped scum...

Where was Gerrendus while this went down? Distancing himself. He started with straying from the al4xz wagon and continued with it through the Puta Puta lynch. However, I see it not as distancing -- I see it as a scum-filled cry to play devil's advocate.

Post 434 - Puta re-questioned Gerrendus for his thoughts on al4xz, when I had only shortly before done it myself. Gerrendus repeated his words. In hindsight, this looks like an attempt to show distance between each other to give Gerrendus room to work.

- Gerrendus went on hiatus for four days, not posting during a voting cycle that put Puta Puta at L-1. We have established that. We cannot refute if he was intentionally not posting, truly busy, etc. There is no reason to, because upon his return Puta Puta was still alive -- and I believe that is the clincher.

Now My question is this: Could he not just be crying mason to explain away his working in collusion with someone else in a scummy factor? Even when thus pressured he still doesn't seem to be taking it seriously. I'm moderately annoyed that we only have until tomorrow to decide when al4xz only got replaced today seeing as he was primarily the chief target of suspicion.

I do not feel that the switched bandwagon to puta puta was the result of a scum partner protection, people were alarmed at the way PP phrased things. Is it possible however that PP did this becuase he is a symp?

Sure, it turns out to be completely true he was in collusion with scum -- and the above are your words, not mine. He obviously was working with someone else. And everything you posted were reasons to lynch Puta Puta and hold off on a decision against al4xz's replacement. He was hand-feeding the situation to us when he backed himself against the wall with contradiction.

Post 481 - You want a deadline extension because al4xz was replaced and he was once the "chief target" for a lynch. The rest of us are convinced Puta Puta is a worthwhile lynch, but you are relishing on the past. You are trying to buy time. Two real-time days earlier you were not asking for such time -- but less than 10-hours before the deadline you make this plea? That smells of scum, especially after you propose the idea that Puta Puta is possibly a scum sympathizer. If you thought this, why withhold your vote? It would surely have rid us of a diversion.

So in the end, that scum Puta Puta was working with? It was you. And I am convinced of it. My only doubt would be if someone could give me substantiated evidence that shows you are indeed a confirmed townie.

Vote: Gerrendus

[Tom Mason]

Request to Mod:

If you could fix my url tags, I would appreciate it. I was not paying attention. No clue why I added the quotations. Thanks.

Fixed. - Incog-Co-Mod

[Tom Mason]

It's PBPA time, bitches.

I'm fairly torn between DoomCow and Gerrendus as to which one is the bigger obvscum, but for now, I'm going to go with a

Vote: DoomCow

I am just curious how you see a stronger case head-to-head for DoomCow over Gerrendus.

So my question is: What gives the edge to DoomCow for your vote?

[Tom Mason]

Tom Mason

~ Erratically signs his name to some of his posts, but not all of them (obvscumtell).

Heh. Can you tell I write e-mails and memos all day long at work?

[Tom Mason]

Tom Mason

~ Erratically signs his name to some of his posts, but not all of them (obvscumtell).

Heh. Can you tell I write e-mails and memos all day long at work?

You don't use a signature (that is, a text block like what we have here) with your e-mails? It just seems easier.
Also, what do you do for a living? Out of curiosity.

I have an e-mail signature, but for inter-departmental things, I tend to finish with a quick informal close. I work for a university on-campus student housing department. I am finishing my Business Degree, so I will be doing something else come the end of the summer.

Which reminds me... I will be away from the game Thursday and Friday. I have to fly for an interview with Toys R' Us Corporate.

[Tom Mason]

Personally, I think this is an easy lynch from the standpoint of what I have seen happen in the last two days.

Why? Let me explain my stance.

Gerrendus hammered Der Hammer claiming he never noticed he was the hammering vote. This is all following a plea not to hammer DH until people had the opportunity for more discussion and response from DH. It also comes after Gerrendus spent the better part of the day advocating a lynch of Zade. Both of them turned up town. And after Night Two, coincidentally two people he put in his targets were eliminated.

I would be lying if I didn't say I was influenced by Percy's analysis of DH at the end of D1, DH had been sitting up there for a while now (as I see in hindsight) yet he hadn't reacted to it. Percy's observations were enough that I believed they merited a vote for DH. That they were unfounded suspicions does not deny that they were reasonable at the time.
Which two? I know Zade, but as I previously stated I only wanted more time to consider al4xz, I wasn't entirely sure he was scum at the time though I thought the possibility existed.

Zade and Der Hammer. You did vote for DH, remember that.

Where was Gerrendus while this went down? Distancing himself. He started with straying from the al4xz wagon and continued with it through the Puta Puta lynch. However, I see it not as distancing -- I see it as a scum-filled cry to play devil's advocate.

How pray tell was I distancing myself and playing devil's advocate?

You distanced yourself for everything I explained in my post. You tried to make time for al4xz to catch up in votes while . The second you saw al4xz was replaced, you started trying to turn the tables and suggest we possibly might be making a bad decision in lynching Puta Puta. You had every opportunity to drop a final vote against him, but never did.

When al4xz had all the attention, you were focused on Zade. But once the attention went to Puta Puta, you started to focus on al4xz.

- Gerrendus went on hiatus for four days, not posting during a voting cycle that put Puta Puta at L-1. We have established that. We cannot refute if he was intentionally not posting, truly busy, etc. There is no reason to, because upon his return Puta Puta was still alive -- and I believe that is the clincher.

Oh yes, forgive me for spending the holidays with my family and forgetting about an online game! How selfish of me. </sarcasm>
How is that "the clincher?"

Refer to the above. You were not against al4xz much at all, barely mentioning him as a suspect... until there was a heavy following against Puta Puta. You gave reasons we should lynch Puta Puta, saying he was possibly working with the mafia as a sympathetic -- but would not vote for him? You listed the perfect reason to drop the hammer vote -- but could not follow through. Instead, you wanted more time to look at al4xz's replacement, after not being a follower against him before.

What you did in your free time away from here, I do not care. All that matters to me is how you acted when you got back against al4xz and Puta Puta.

[Tom Mason]

Where is ZazieR? Where is... everyone, actually? If OGML is still up to his two-week deadlines, we've only got five-ish days left.

We do only have until this weekend (Sunday night, I believe?) to commit to a lynch.

I have nothing new to offer at the moment sadly. Some thoughts on Gerrendus and the case presented by myself and followed up by Vi would be appreciated.

[Tom Mason]

It seems to me that all of the issues with me are that I essentially did not look at Puta Puta and I was in favor of considering the options. I had no more foreknowledge of PPs identity than anyone else (with the exception of his scumpartners). So by all means if you wish to lynch YET ANOTHER townie who simply made a mistake on Day 1 and wished to consider the options as long as possible on Day 2, then proceed with the line of reasoning on myself. If you actually wish to lynch a scum, then i would suggest highly looking elsewhere. Doom Cow seems to be the popular choice, but I have not had time to read over all of the arguments except to defend myself. Which I see now are the same argument in about 50 different disguises.

I will also be out of town Friday/saturday

When you have no actual suggestions on "looking elsewhere" I see no reason not to pursue you.

Telling us we are making a mistake is nothing but words. What have you done so far that gives us a reason to keep you alive and lynch someone else?

Better yet, who is a better lynch than you? You say DoomCow without any explanation of why other than he "seems to be the popular choice." And he is not the popular choice, at the moment. You have the most votes. DoomCow just has been receiving attention in discussion.

[Tom Mason]

Sorry, but life has been a bit hectic this past week, and when I did have time, my connection failed, so I'm not fully up to date here (and I only just picked up my prod).
Now, for the game, I'm not fully read up, but am willing to

vote: Gerrendus

based on Vi's and Caboose's suspicions/reasonings. Further I should be able to have the time to focus more on the game from Sunday on, so I'll start a reread then..

Make it good. Because all I see here is, "What Caboose/Vi said. Vote: Gerrendus. More Later."

Not only that... His vote put Gerrendus at L-1.

This is not a repeat of the Puta Puta situation, I hope...

[Tom Mason]

Sigh... Someone just vote him off then we do not have to spend a year waiting for a replacement.

[Tom Mason]

No. I do agree. I said what I did more as a joke and out of the frustration that activity has pretty much stopped in the game.

There is nothing new I can think of that could be said.

[Tom Mason]

Tom Mason

-post 332

And to those who question the witch-hunt of Scheherazade, I do not disagree that his play has been erratic. But something about this situation does not sit well with me at the moment.

I don’t particularly like this declaration because it allows him to stay on the fence and stay ambiguous.
-post 348 Feels off to me. He says that Zazier’s case echoes his but Tom’s case is based around al4xz’s acknowledgement to DH getting hammered and that aftermath. Tom doesn’t agree or disagree with any of the other several points Zazier brings up against al4xz. Tom then says he has nothing to add. This feels like he’s not as committed to getting a better read or he’s withholding opinion.
-post 394 Scheh would certainly help himself with brevity but with Tom calling it back-and-forth banter it seems like Tom hasn’t read anything that’s worth looking at.
-post 410 Like Vi’s 409, it’s probably best that Tom questions Puta but doesn’t vote until Puta has a chance to repond. But Tom goes on to say that Puta looks stupid not scummy. It shows he still places al4xz as scummy but Puta as useless. I feel both town and scum could want to do that at this point though.

I think I spoke as much as I needed or could have spoken thus far in this phase.

I am not one to really sit and try to decipher words and make things into something that they are likely not.

Very interesting that while just about no one that I recall has attempted to pin me as suspicious or scummy -- you are. You would be wrong in your assumption, that much I will tell you.

The Puta Puta situation really was something that looked more stupid than scummy. But his stupidity is what turned my vote and I believe I made note of that. It worked out in favor of the group, which was great.

With Sche/Jazzmyn situation -- it was ridiculous banter back and forth. The most of it could be completely thrown out. All it did was cause confusion.

[Tom Mason]

Tom Mason

-post 546 Is that a reason to vote DoomCow then?

No, it was my short way of saying "I hope this is not going to quickly turn into a game of everyone unvote one person and turn on the second."

It worked in our favor last time, yes. But how often do you see it being positive in the long term?

-post 597 I don’t expect everybody to always be ready to give opinion on everything but when they do it makes them look more townish. I don’t know why I’m alone on my suspicions of you. Saying I’m wrong doesn’t change my opinion but I’m seeing both good and bad things from you so maybe I’m only half the time wrong.

That is junk. Just because someone is willing to state that they agree/disagree with something said does not "make them look more town." Everyone can have an opinion and voice it when they want, and opinions in their own are not wrong -- but when they lack evidence and factual basis, they are wrong.

I believe Tarhalindur's role claim at this point. Highly doubt that he is going to be challenged on it. As for you, Jahudo -- anyone can claim vanilla townie. There are likely to be a number of them in this game, myself included. So, to challenge you is equally as difficult -- but I would much prefer to take my chances lynching you at the moment.

Unless there is a much better idea proposed.

[Tom Mason]

Jazzmyn has annoyed me with her continuous pressing of Sche since Day One. Much of the bickering that went on between the both of them, I glanced over and really felt was nonsense. It was more her trying to make a case out of nothing, or a very little something, against Sche. I think it is very interesting and true where Tarhar mentions that it was Jazz who was really misrepresenting the situation between Sche and herself. It was as if she was forcing a lot of words and interpretations into exactly what it was Sche was saying.

Unvote

It is as good as any vote we are going to reach at this point.

I am not forgetting about Jahudo, however. I still think you have some making up to do for your predecessor. And I do not particularly like you jumping right in line with Tarhar for the case against Jazz.

Vote: Jazzmyn

A claim from Jazz might be in order at this time. I know she is at L-2, but there is no need to necessarily wait for her to be at L-1.

[Tom Mason]

I believe Tarhalindur's role claim at this point. Highly doubt that he is going to be challenged on it.

Why do you "highly doubt" it?

My doubt was because I believed his claim and I would not expect there to be someone else claiming to be the JOAT. People have questioned him on it, but I meant challenge in terms of trying to suggest "He is not the JOAT, I am."

[quote"iamusername"]Tom, if you're so concerned by Jahudo's leaping onto the Jazz wagon, why are you willing to immediately do the same thing yourself? This seems rather contradictory. [/quote]

I am concerned on Jahudo because he listed about half the active players as scummy/suspicious, but suddenly said that Jazz is his number two and dropped his vote on her. When I look back, I see nothing detailing what he has to be suspicious of her for. I never see him list her as his #2 option either.

It certainly does not fit his voting. He voted for Tar. Then he voted for Vi. Now he votes for Jazz. By my count, that makes Jazz his third choice.

You are right, though. My wording does make things seem a bit hypocritical. And I am not one for being a hypocrite.

And now, I submit this fun little quote Jahudo posted when he called me out for not giving my thoughts on something:

Just because someone is willing to state that they agree/disagree with something said does not "make them look more town."

I disagree. I believe that scum have a harder time forming genuine opinions and following by them because they are detached from the town goal.

Jahudo has had a hard time formulating a genuine opinion. He had to post a "back-up vote" even earlier when he voted for Vi. He spent the entirety of his time in this day to talking about how scummy he thought DoomCow/Tar was until he nit-picked on Vi for trying to assume a pairing with al4xz and Sche. But then was so quickly wanting to switch to his "back-up vote" for Jazz just to try and get a lynch.

I do not like that at all. Something tells me I was right before when Gerrendus was still here and even when Jahudo started this phase. Jazz does not stand out as much as Jahudo does to me right now.

Unvote: Jazzmyn

Vote: Jahudo

L-1, I do believe. And if I am also not mistaken, you claimed already. Anything else you have to add, Jahudo? Maybe some explanation to the back-up vote and what you were thinking?

[Tom Mason]

But then was so quickly wanting to switch to his "back-up vote" for Jazz just to try and get a lynch.

Craplogic. With deadline approaching you should be transparent with who you are willing to vote for because that cuts down on scummy, last moment bandwagon jumpers.

It is not craplogic. Especially in a smaller game, I think.

If you are ready to sit and have first, second, and even third choices for a vote in a game... I consider that no better than jumping on a bandwagon. You give the impression that you just want to see a lynch. Even if it is a bad lynch.

By your explanation, you are telling me that if Jazz were never gather support for a lynch, you will go back to Vi if the votes are there. What then stops you from going back to Tarhalindur? Or switching your vote to anyone else in this game at that point?

[Tom Mason]

Ugh.

It appears that I am probably one of those "useless players" that we discussed earlier, so - see, I'm learning - a vig or a SK should probably kill me tonight.

Apologies.

Regards,
Jazz

No one who is town should be asking for someone to kill them during the night phase. Especially in such a small sized game as we have.

I think the lynching vote you placed on Jahudo needs some explanation as it seems you did not pay attention and know you were the final vote. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Either way, I think you still need to answer why you were so hard on Tahir but willing to drop a vote on Jahudo at the end of the day. The short explanation you gave at the bottom of Post 640 supports an OMGUS vote.

@ Jazz: What were you thinking and what made Jahudo the right decision in that situation?

So far every person you have put intense and mind-numbing pressure on has turned out to be a vanilla townie. I think you are pushing far too hard and if I had to pick one person I want to vote for at the moment, it is you.

[Tom Mason]

Yeah, my best guess has been thinking there are four mafia and one neutral SK or a Vig.

Given all the craziness with the forums in the last day or so hopefully Jazz turns up soon to speak up. At the moment, I do not think there is a reason not to vote for her.

[Tom Mason]

What method do we use for the massclaim? Chosen order? Random order? Popcorn? (I'm leaning towards popcorn with Tom Mason starting first, given my investigation result.)

I do agree at this point a mass claim is in order. Should produce some interesting results as we get going.

A popcorn style claim works for me. If the consensus supports it, as well as my start, I will be more than happy to kick things off.

[Tom Mason]

I'm still working on my cases against Tar and Tom. Hope to have them finished soon. I'm not averse to a mass claim, just a bit concerned that it's my two top suspects that seem most in favour of it at the moment.

Maybe it is because I have nothing to hide and you do?

[Tom Mason]

I am doing this now, rather than waiting considering it will take something significant to sway my vote right now.

Vote: Jazzmyn

You have not answered the question(s) posed to you. And essentially for everything posted in #652, that is why you get my vote.

[Tom Mason]

@Tom Mason: Are we in LyLo?

The short and simple answer: Yes.

Why do I think this is so?

There are two killing roles, one which almost certainly would be mafia. The other, could be a Town vigilante -- or what I believe it to be, a serial killer. We have seen no neutral roles and I would be quite sure there is at least one.

10 Dead Townies. 2 Dead Mafia. 7 Players alive.

At least one more is mafia. I am inclined to think there might be two. The traitor suggestion sounds feasible as well.

If we lynch wrong in this phase... Two players die in the night. This game will be over.

We need this mass claim. Would you agree?

Does anyone disagree?

[Tom Mason]

Based on the interruption due to the recent site crash, deadline has been moved to

January 21st.

Oh lovely. 'Good thing I checked up on this.

We're a day away from deadline and we

still

haven't done anything today. In the cases of Jazzmyn, Huntress, Darox, and especially ZazieR, you haven't SAID anything either. While it's probably not coincidental that you're the four people most likely to be Mafia IMO,

this is unacceptable at potential LyLo!

It's time to start posting whatever you've got. Getting all hands on deck may not happen given the short turn-around time, but we need to make some decisions, fast.

@mod: Has ZazieR picked up her prod?

because looking at her activity onsite, I'm quite... frustrated with her absence.

@Tarhalindur:

You have an outstanding question from me (683). Also, is massclaiming still a good idea given the tight quarters?

@Vi: After reading your analysis of everyone... Are you willing to vote against Jazzmyn?

As you said, we are a day away from the deadline, with only two votes I believe. Highly unlikely we will see a majority lynch. But I think with two more votes we could see a deadline lynch.

I do not like how she has continually come back to say she is working on her case against Tar and myself... But then disappears only to come back shortly after to repeat the same.

[Tom Mason]

About the massclaim, I wouldn't mind doing it now. It would give us an impression about the set-up. What's the main reason for not doing it today?

I think the main reason is that it tells the scum who the power roles are and we've no guarantee there's another doctor. I'd rather leave it up to the PRs to decide whether any information they have so far is enough to take the risk.

I think this really needs to be addressed NOW. I could care less about your analysis of each of us and why you think we are scum or not when I look back at the above quote.

Answer this question carefully...

Do you not believe the town could lose this game, regardless of claiming, during this day/night cycle

(LyLo)

? Why or why not?

[Tom Mason]

Let me first say how impressed I am that you never finish what it is you are intending to comment on, instead moving to something else, Huntress.

@ Tom: Did you have any other reasons for thinking al4xz vote-worthy?

If I had more and more reasons, I would have posted them. He voted recklessly. I expect a townie to be cautious and know what the vote count is, just as much as any other player.

Are you kidding me?

It is far too stupid of a move for Puta to make though. It begs us to vote for him, but I think it is just stupidity, not scummy.

This looks like an attempt to stop the wagon moving off al4xz to Gimbo.

@ PutaPuta: Sigh, you are either going to get us killed or yourself killed. I prefer the latter.
<snip>
Right now, I think this has to happen, despite what I said earlier just thinking Puta Puta was playing like a fool.

Vote: Puta Puta

He then does a U-turn and gets on the wagon before it gets too big. These just don't seem to be the words of a townie.

You are right, I did "U-Turn." But it is very easy to sit and question me when we have the roles of both al4xz and Puta revealed. I flipped my vote because I had to sit and consider the magnitude of what he was doing. When he threw his vote down, had not even been participating in the game, and acting so odd, I had to turn. While I still believed up until al4xz turned townie that he was in fact scum, Puta deserved to be lynched for the reason I gave.

Hindsight is 20/20. So, what are you really going to gain by questioning me now when I gave the reasons once? If I had another reason, I would have posted it then.

About the massclaim, I wouldn't mind doing it now. It would give us an impression about the set-up. What's the main reason for not doing it today?

I think the main reason is that it tells the scum who the power roles are and we've no guarantee there's another doctor. I'd rather leave it up to the PRs to decide whether any information they have so far is enough to take the risk.

I think this really needs to be addressed NOW. I could care less about your analysis of each of us and why you think we are scum or not when I look back at the above quote.

Why? What is it about this quote that bothers you?

Refer to what you stated below so I can explain.

Answer this question carefully...

Do you not believe the town could lose this game, regardless of claiming, during this day/night cycle

(LyLo)

? Why or why not?

Of course we could. It would be silly to think otherwise . But I don't see how mass-claiming is going to help us.

If this game is going to likely end without another day phase, what do we lose from a mass-claim? If anything, we will sort through a few lies and have some battling of counter-claims. But no claims at all, give us nothing.

The only people who have a reason to avoid a mass claim are those who have something to hide. Power Roles being claimed at this point are not a huge issue. Because depending who gets lynched, just having a townie killed during the night will end this game.

Your distancing from Jazz is amazing.

[Tom Mason]

Not quite simulposted.

Let me first say how impressed I am that you never finish what it is you are intending to comment on, instead moving to something else, Huntress.

Clarify.

Clarification: Look at Huntress's post history. She comes out and says he has posts coming on someone... Then never scratches the surface on the topic. She claims she gets busy. Claims she loses the posts. And then moves onto another person or topic, rather than completing her previous thought. She did it again when it came to addressing me just the other day. I have been waiting to see her big post about Jazz and Tar... But it has never happened.

I expect a townie to be cautious and know what the vote count is, just as much as any other player.

And al4xz's counter still stands - do you think NOT keeping track of your vote is more characteristic of a scum player, or a Town player?

It would expect all players to be just as equally aware of their vote. You could push-and-pull the subject both ways. But I would personally expect a townie to be more aware of their votes, considering they will tend to think more and be cautious in applying it. I do not think it is hard to keep track of your vote. If you cannot remember who you are voting for, I think it is more of a scum-tell -- because you are just doing whatever favors you best at the moment. You do not necessarily care who you are voting for until someone starts questioning you and you need to backtrack.

The only people who have a reason to avoid a mass claim are those who have something to hide.

Doesn't matter, I missed how soon the deadline is - we don't have time for a massclaim, so we'll have to work without it.

(*Maybe* after massclaim, but I don't think we have enough time for that now.)

I cannot speak for Tar, but look at the way others were trying to avoid a claim. He proposed the idea initially, I believe. So, obviously he favored the mass-claim. But when there are people like Jazz, Huntress, and more avoiding the idea or downplaying the need for it -- how can Tar really continue to push it?

The deadline was about to hit, too, when he said that (unless I am mistaken). And then it was asked for an extension.

Your distancing from Jazz is amazing.

What.

You've barely mentioned Huntress before, and certainly not in any context with Jazzmyn.

I'm definitely waiting for Huntress's post vs. Tarhalindur now.

Right, I have not really been addressing Huntress until now. But look back at her posts since entering the game and anytime Jazz is questioned, she will say "I think Jazz is town" (or something to the effect) and then go back to pressuring Tar, myself, or another.

While Jazz has come until scrutiny from others, she dismisses it. That is all I was intending to imply.

[Tom Mason]

Unfortunately... I am Vanilla town.

I never get a good role.

[Tom Mason]

Unfortunately... I am Vanilla town.

I never get a good role.

Vanilla town

is

a good role. It gives more freedom than other roles. But your post just sounds fishy. In fact, it reeks of WIFOM.

By "good role" I meant one with an actual ability.

Looking at the player list and revealed roles, I am thinking we have 2 mafia (1 traitor?) and a few power roles to be claimed.

Updated Players/Claims:

4. Vi (???)
11. Tom Mason (Vanilla Townie)
12. Tarhalindur (Jack of All Trades)
13. Jazzmyn (???)
14. Huntress (Vanilla Townie)
18. Darox (Vanilla Townie)
19. Rhinox (???)

Given what I was expected to see... I am inclined not to believe Huntress' claim. I was expecting a power role claim. And when I take a look at the voting history for yourself/ribwich -- I just have a suspicion you really are mafia.

Ribwich's first vote in the game was for Juls/Puta Puta... Then he pulled it away when there were three votes. Hardly enough for a Day One bandwagon or concern, but playing it safe maybe? Easy added a vote to Sche/Der Hammer as their votes increased.

Then on Day Two, Ribwich voted for Puta Puta first again when PP put the L-1 vote on al4xz. Highly doubt he thought PP would get lynched so easily -- and when the wagon started shifting, could he really retract his vote in haste? It would look odd. It was best to distance himself... And holding to his first vote did that.

Just a theory on my part. It caught my attention and got me thinking.

[Tom Mason]

EBWOP:

Updated Players/Claims:

4. Vi (???)
11. Tom Mason (Vanilla Townie)
12. Tarhalindur (Jack of All Trades)
13. Jazzmyn (Vanilla Townie)
14. Huntress (Vanilla Townie)
18. Darox (Vanilla Townie)
19. Rhinox (???)

[Tom Mason]

My gut feeling tells me this is the wrong play. I did not think Caboose was scummy while he was here. But I definitely do not like how Darox was so quick with the claim after not really being deeply involved in conversation yet. However, he did what was asked.

I know for a fact who I am. I believe that Tar is who he says he is -- because it holds true to my vanilla town role.

There is no reason to doubt that Rhinox is at least a killing role. But a vigilante can make sense. We know there is more than one killing role in this game.

My remaining doubt lies with both Huntress and Jazzmyn. I would support a lynch of either of them right now. It is no secret that I have supported lynching Jazz for the better part of the day. And Huntress has really peaked my attention with her suspecting Tar and myself of both lying like this.

I have looked at both their voting, and I find things odd. In Day Three, if I could have... I would have re-voted for Jazz after I saw her vote Jahudo like that. And Huntress/ribwich seems to like to follow votes or just put a vote on a person not being pressured at all:

DAY 1 - Voted Juls early/first, retracted the vote after a third came.
DAY 1 - Put the fifth vote on Sche
DAY 2 - Voted TAX early, no one else ever voted TAX
DAY 2 - Unvoted TAX, voted Puta first (ended in lynch)
DAY 3 - Added third vote to Doomcow (when Huntress replaced in; everyone else flipped to vote Jahudo)

I would expect a townie to put more thought and question things more. I would think Huntress would have considered moving her vote, possibly even moving it around. But it really seems as if they picked a target and tried to stick it through every phase, even if everyone else thinks there might be a better direction. Is it town play? Debatable. The TAX vote stands out for me, because it went to a quick turn on Puta when he wanted to vote/ask for a claim from Sche. We cannot ask questions now about that because it was ribwich's vote, not Huntress'.

[Tom Mason]

I think the best play is to lynch Jazzmyn as scum, which I am very sure of, and let Rhinox survive through the day. If Rhinox is a SK, then we have an issue. If he is a Vig, then the game is over (pending Jazz's reveal). And if Jazz is not scum (by some stroke of luck for the mafia), Rhinox still has the opportunity to NK.

We have no roleblock or protection to use, which puts us at a disadvantage. You also run the risk that Jazz could drop a quick vote for hammer AGAIN if players starts stepping to vote for Rhinox or Vi. At which point we will all kick ourselves.

If we lynch Rhinox, and he is town, that drops us to FOUR. Then a NK brings us to THREE. You still have to go through another day phase for sure.

By lynching Jazz first, you have the possibility to end the game without another day phase all together.

[Tom Mason]

I think all will be solved when Jazz is lynched and revealed as the mafia GF.

I am 100% vanilla town. And when we see the results, it will be confirmed. I can understand the apprehension as we are very close to the end.

My vote will go on Jazz once you are satisfied with the way we are progressing. I think the decision to lynch Jazz is the only logical one we can make. And if there were doubts before, the fact she was blocked by Tar and only one kill took place counters it well.

There is still reason for doubt simply because that is the way this game is defined. But I very highly doubt we are dealing with a five-scum group. As has been previously mentioned, it would make more sense for a fifth scum to actually be a traitor if anything. And that traitor loses if the mafia are lynched.

As for hearing from Vi or Jazz... What real insight could they provide? Jazz will claim she is still a vanilla townie and it did not matter if she was roleblocked. She will try to oppose her lynch arguing to have me lynched in her place. The only thing Vi could say to impact the game would be that he is the mafia player and his role was blocked, or he could counter Rhinox's Vig claim now. But then the question would be -- why did he not counter the last day?

I think waiting for input from each of them is wasted time.

[Tom Mason]

My statements are made knowing 100% that if you lynch me, this game will be over and the scum will win.

My comment:

[quote=Tom Mason]I think all will be solved when Jazz is lynched and revealed as the mafia GF. [/quote]

Should really be mafia/GF.

You are right, I do not know for sure there is a GF in this game. Everyone else began tossing that concept around, paranoid that Tar's investigation of me was possibly false if I were a GF. But it does not dismiss that there is possibly a GF in this game. At this point in the game, unless the GF were me -- it does not matter if there is one in this game. And I am not a GF, so let us look past that -- unless you want to cloud judgment in winning this game for the town.

[quote=Vi]*There WERE two kill attempts, but they were against the same person (Huntress). This guarantees Jazzmyn is not scum. [/quote]

I do not see how that at all makes Jazz

not

scum. Two killing roles target Huntress, one is roleblocked, and the other succeeds. Huntress still dies. It is no different from if Jazz were to target another individual and be blocked.

[quote=Rhinox]
Vi, how is Tom mason confirmed town? How is Tar not confirmed town?[/quote]

I believe we are operating under the assumption that Tar would not falsely claim I am town, leaving himself open the possibility I flipped scum, and then having the rest of the game chase after him for false information. So, even if Tar were scum, he would still report me as town to negate himself from that possible scrutiny. It can become a little bit of WIFOM. But it is really avoiding backlash. It would not confirm Tar as town or scum, only me -- unless you are a really paranoid player.

Now we get to the issue of Tar's roleblock on Jazzmyn and Rhinox now trying to cry gambit. I have mixed feelings on this situation. If both are telling the truth: that means Jazz is definitely

not

one of two killing roles. It does mean Rhinox still is one. However, it gives no insight as to which of them really is town or scum.

Considering a Mafia Roleblocker... There is a possibility of there being a mafia power role in excess of the kill. But it seems like a very basic game where there is not even a town roleblocker (save for a JOAT ability). So, I am not inclined to believe this scenario posed by Rhinox.

While I would like to say I think Rhinox is scum, I feel like it is a hard-pressed case to make -- without knowing Jazz's role. If Jazz flips scum, I think there is a good possibility that Rhinox will flip scum if/when lynched in Day Six. Right now, I think it is a huge risk he made by sticking his neck out there, claiming one thing, then trying to backtrack and audible out by saying he was gambitting. If Jazz flips scum when lynched, it will certainly make him look scum by doing this.

Though, if he is not scum and really is a Vig/SK... Would that not make Vi then possibly a NK immune role (given the assumption he did gambit and did actually target Vi)? There are instances where Mafia GFs are immune to NK. Different mods play different ways.

Now, if that last bit is true... Then we cannot lynch Jazz. We have to lynch Vi instead.

Thoughts?

[Tom Mason]

Either we will all rejoice at the result of this, or we will smash our heads against the desk. I am willing to take the risk. In fact, I have to take the risk. If Vi were NOT scum, then certainly Jazz would have hammered by now.

Rhinox... I really, REALLY hope you are the Vig.

Jazz is either a mafia goon or really the vanilla townie she claims to be.

There does not have to be a mafia roleblocker. It makes more sense that there is not a mafia roleblocker -- especially if Vi is a GF that cannot be NK. That would explain Rhinox not being able to kill him last night phase.

Jazz was roleblocked, so she could not be a roleblocker... Unless Tar was lying all this time. Highly unlikely, I think.

Moment of truth, I suppose.

Vote: Vi

[Tom Mason]

The odds highly were against this situation. But I think the quality of players in Tar and Rhinox to come in and do what they did... Really was well-done.

Had Rhinox not mentioned the gambit, Jazz would have been lynched, I think.

And my situation just plain sucks.

[Tom Mason]

Vote: Tar

If I have to pick a winner, I have to do it.

There is no questioning that Tar is NOT town. There is a slight possibility that Rhinox is town -- even if I doubt it is going to be the case.

So, I am a fool to vote any other way.

Good game.

[Tom Mason]

I had no reservations about who I was going to vote for when it came down to the wire on Day Five.

Like I said, my only chance of winning once Tar decided to lay all the cards on the table, was to play with off-chance that Rhinox was the Vig as he tried to convince everyone of. I knew the predicament he was in for a while, not wanting to be picked off by the mafia if they really found him to be a threat. It looked as if Vi was trying to pick off the weak known townies (from his perspective). It would have been a risk to go after the SK, if the SK was not about to be killed during the night.

It definitely was a good game through to the end. I replaced in during Day One, had a vanilla role and obviously was going to have to work by my gut feelings. Some of them were wrong (like thinking Jazz was mafia and Huntress was possibly near the end), but when everything was happening near the end and Vi came out the way he did -- I had a revelation. Biting on Rhinox's gambit play seemed the most sensible, since I did not think he had a real reason to lie after considering it. It paid dividends and that lynch is what saved the game.

I strongly felt there was a Vig in the game because there were no real power roles on the town's side to balance things out. It made sense and while I wanted to believe Tar was the JOAT... It was not exactly adding up in my head. I had no reason other than that gut feeling to vote against him -- so I stuck by him and kept hammering the notion I thought he was town. And it is what probably kept me alive. Had Tar killed me and I flipped town, I think it would have helped him. Thankfully, I think he just decided to leave his guesswork to itself, knowing Vi probably would not kill me and confirm me as town to help Tar.

To sum everything up in two words: Exciting Game.