Mafia 90-Lolwat? Mafia, Game Over, Mafia Win

[GnKoichi]

/confirm

[GnKoichi]

vote: Orange Penguin

for being in every game I'm in.

[GnKoichi]

I don't like how the bandwagon discussion went, but I don't like both sides of it. I don't know, something felt disingenuous about pretty much everyone involved in it.

unvote

since my random vote target is getting replaced. Going to re-read soon and try to analyze the bandwagon stuff.

[GnKoichi]

That's really not true; especally in a large game like this, a small early bandwagon is unlikely to go to a lynch, it gives the town something to talk about, and gets the game going. Frankly, the chances of a random early speedlynch without the guy even getting a chance to claim in a game like this are close enough to zero so as to not even be worth worrying about.

So you think Bandwagonning in a game like this is okay?

Dude. There are times when bandwagoning is perfectly acceptable. Granted, wagoning for the sake of wagoning is scummy, but if everybody went off on their own tangents and never came to a consensus, the game would make no progress.

Unvote: roflcopter
Serious vote: MafiaSSK

I thought this wagoning for the sake of wagoning...

I am not wagoning for the sake of wagoning; I am attacking your views on wagoning.

Vote: Strangercoug

for misunderstanding MafiaSSK's statement in a way that I don't think is even possible.

[GnKoichi]

Rofl, are you FoSing me for the quote wall? If so, why me and not the two people after me? If not, why FoS me without giving a reason?

[GnKoichi]

Actually, Yosarian, it makes perfect sense. Scum will sometimes "misunderstand" something so that they can push a vote without a good reason. It's a safe lie, because when it's pointed out they can just say "that was just a misunderstanding" and remove their vote. That was my initial idea, Coug, that you couldn't possible have misunderstood that, so it had to be a lie. However, for now,

unvote

because of:

not for the quote wall, that would be infantile. and i'd like to see if anyone else sees what i see before giving reasons.

vote: Rofl

It was odd enough for you to FoS me for no reason. It's just plain scummy for you to cop out on backing it up.

[GnKoichi]

OH MY GOD! Coug, please read more carefully.

[GnKoichi]

Coug, I asked you to read more carefully because Yosarian wasn't telling you to vote SSK. He was giving a timeline of events, including the point at which you placed that vote.

The misunderstanding that I originally accused you of still stands, which was that you defended yourself against SSK as if he accused you of wagoning. He wasn't. He was saying that your attack on him was unjustified, as he felt he was pointing out someone who was "wagoning for the sake of wagoning", which you had said you agreed with. He was questioning your vote, when in theory the two of you should have been able to come to some agreement. But a page later, you still haven't figured out what you did wrong, as your attempts to defend your posts have nothing to do with what you've been accused of.

Again, read carefully.

[GnKoichi]

That conversation was tied to my analysis that Coug was faking misreads in order to cover his scumminess. Stop trying to stifle conversation, Rofl.

[GnKoichi]

Once again, you fail to provide any back up to a statement. Your not posting just to tells us all you laughed. You're making a bid at painting me in a certain way. Instead of being sneaky about it, which makes you look like scum, why don't you provide some actual analysis of my posts?

[GnKoichi]

Rofl, you have done nothing all game to show SSK is scum, yet you continue to hound him without reason (or without stated reasons). Are you just hoping that enough people will see SSK's name and start thinking suspiciously of him? Also, this is not me defending SSK; it's me anaylzing your posting pattern. I would say the same thing if you had selected any other player as your victim.

In fact, my entire "chainsaw defense" of SSK that you just pointed out was simply me making a case against Coug. It just happened to be centered around a statement by SSK that Coug misunderstood. You calling his post inane IS stifling conversation, since he was contributing to that discussion.

[GnKoichi]

Coug, seriously, I already clarified that the wagoning vs bandwagoning issue is NOT what I accused you of misunderstanding. And NO ONE is voting you because of a misunderstanding. I had voted for you, and King is voting for you now, because we both believe that you DIDN'T misunderstand anything, but instead you are faking this lack of reading comprehension as a defense of your actions.

Please read post 116 to see what your original "misunderstanding" actually was. I find it hard to believe you still don't get this, which makes it easier to believe that this is an act. If it's not, if you're town, then you need to read A LOT more carefully, because this will eventually lead to us mislynching you.

[GnKoichi]

Also, through King's quote of Yosarian, and Coug's continued lack of ability to understand anything that's going on, I finally caught on to the flaw in that quote. So, Yos & Coug: King was pointing out that Yos's series of paraphrases are incorrect. A better summary would have been:

SSK: I'm going to vote for Litral because he's admitted to wagoning. Wagoning is bad.

Coug: Sometimes a wagon is good, unless it's for no reason. Vote SSK.

SSK: I think Litral was wagoning for no reason.

Coug: I AM NOT WAGONING FOR NO REASON! I'M ATTACKING YOU FOR YOUR VIEWS ON WAGONING!

That last statement is almost a direct quote. It is Coug's original misunderstanding, and it's unbelievablity is the reason for both Mine & King's votes. That's why King said that if Yos doesn't believe it was an actual misunderstanding, he should actually agree with us, as that's what lead to the votes.


To Rofl: Another statement without any substance. I don't feel like responding to something that only furthers my opinion of you.

[GnKoichi]

Yosarian, in that case, please respond directly to my post #128 to show me where it "doesn't even make sense".

[GnKoichi]

Coug, that was probably the best analysis you've provided all game. I don't agree with your conclusion, since I don't think you've connected what happened to a strawman argument, and that's your reason for voting. Still, a good turn of play from you.

I'm going to drop a MASSIVE

HoS: Litral & Lowell

for trying to start a random wagon on a lurker instead of asking for a prod. There is no attempt to scum hunt here, and there is A LOT to analyze between myself, Coug, Yosarian, King, Rofl, and everyone else who's actually been participating. No one has any excuse for random voting like this.

[GnKoichi]

Litral, please explain your last post as being anything but purely scummy? If a lurker suddenly makes a pro-town post, why would you attack him for it?

[GnKoichi]

Litral, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that number's post was not-pro-town to avoid one accusation and then turn around and say it wasn't scummy to avoid another. You clearly have an opinion on his post. You give two more evasive answers, the "jester" comment, and the new counter accusation on the bus comment. You really haven't done anything to clear your name.

[GnKoichi]

Coug's on to the heart of it here. The original sin in this line of problems is your vote against a lurker when there had been no attempt to get him involved before hand. He got a little lost in the shuffle, which is understandable with the confusing arguments that were going on. When he DID get involved, you say it's bad timing. Would it have been LESS scummy for him to not respond at all and let himself get replaced? Once you voted for him, what WOULDN'T have been scummy in your eyes?

And if you think his opinion is pro-town, why not lay off the lurker and help push the scum hunt on someone like rofl?

[GnKoichi]

See, now I'm in a weird spot. I had worked myself over to a Litral vote, but now Rofl is voting for him. Do I really think Rofl is scum strongly enough to assume his vote must either be a bus or proof that Litral is actually town? No, of course not, I say to myself. And I can't judge Litral's actions by Rofl's reactions to them. Okay, self, that helps.

Unvote, Vote: Litral

Also, Vino, you don't say WHY you think Litral is Jester > Scum, which is why people have attacked you for it. You seem to observe the same thing the rest of us have, but you come to a different conclusion. Why? What is Jestery about attacking someone for posting after attacking that same person for lurking?

[GnKoichi]

Litral, I'd really like to hear your answer to my questions in post 182 (and Coug's post 181 is a good read as well). What could numberfourteen have done after your vote that wouldn't have looked bad in your eyes?

[GnKoichi]

Litral, that argument keeps coming back because you have dug yourself into a hole where you have to both defend numberfourteen and defend yourself for attacking him. You've contradicted yourself so many times it's hard to believe anything you say. If you're not scum, you're a distraction of the highest order, and the town will be better off without you either way.

[GnKoichi]

I appreciate the vote of confidence, Penguins.

I disagree with that comment being a scum tell. If Litral is town, he's a bad enough player to distract everyone who is currently voting for him. It's anti-town behavior. If we mis-lynch today, I would rather lynch a town player who causes chaos. Obviously my first instinct is that he's scum, and I would rather lynch him as scum. I would also rather NOT mis-lynch in the first place, if we get a better scum read somewhere else. I'm just saying that if we mis-lynch him, it's his fault for playing so poorly. If he's town, he owes it to the game to play better to avoid the mis-lynch. Him not seeming to care about that only cements the scum read further in my mind.

[GnKoichi]

Honcho, the attack is not against Litral because he voted numberfourteen. It's because he voted him for lurking, then attacked him when he participated. I know you're busy, but that's an easy thing to pick up since it's been mentioned many times.

[GnKoichi]

Man, I don't even know what to say about this whole Mason thing. Both sides have made good points, and both sides have made unfair accusations. I have a couple theories on who might be the scum in this debacle pulling the town's strings, but not enough to worth mentioning yet.

All in all, I'm going to stay focused and leave my vote on the best scum candidate, and I would urge most people to consider the mason discussion nothing more than a distraction and try to focus on scumhunting instead.

[GnKoichi]

Okay, so I agree that it is not scummy to have revealed all the Masons. This can be seen as a pro-town move, as it gives the town information that the scum assumably has or will have soon. However, Vino is right about one thing. If Penguins was scum, and a Mason, and knew that the rest of the Mason team was town, it would be a GREAT move to out us, saying he's trying to flush the scum members of the Masons out. He pushed the statistics, but those numbers don't mean anything if he knows he's the scum. It's unlikely he would be voted, since it was his plan to vote the Masons out. I don't see the town side of this move, so:

HoS: Penguins

That being said, can we PLEASE move past the Mason discussion and get back to the fact that Litral has been VERY scarce now that he's under fire. If he turns lurker in the face of a lynch, that means he has no good means of defending himself. Penguins & Litral could even be scum partners, with Penguins using the Mason tactic to distract everyone from the wagon against his partner [/stretch].

[GnKoichi]

Litral hasn't posted in three days. I'm going to ask for a

prod

.

[GnKoichi]

This has degenerated into name calling. In the spirit of scum hunting, I think everyone should do a one paragraph summary of why they are voting the way they are. This should include quotes which support your analysis. Avoid emotional arguments, as I think they are dragging down the game right now. A quick reread of the player will likely help. I'll be doing the same thing tomorrow if I get a chance (packing for a move). If you're town, this shouldn't be a problem for you.

[GnKoichi]

unvote

Litral, that was kind of amazing. Your last post, though short, was oozing town. Pure, not forced, just town. I still don't like your earlier actions, but if this is the direction you're moving in, I like it.

vote: Penguins of S

I asked for something simple. Stop name calling. Start analyzing. While not everyone did this, you actually did the opposite. You defend your broad generalizations, which are not a good way to hunt scum, and then you continue your bad habit of repeatedly calling people scum and setting up lynch targets without any new information. A scum player has to invent reasons for a lynch, and I think that's what you're doing now. Combined with your attacks on anyone who questioned your legitimately questionable Mason tactic, I'd say you're the #1 scum right now, and I wouldn't be surprised if your partners were among those you've attacked.

[GnKoichi]

Lowell, maybe it's just an odd wording, but don't we want to burden scum with things they don't want?

[GnKoichi]

Reread, completely makes sense now. I don't agree per say, but I understand your sentence now. Sorry.

[GnKoichi]

Rofl, if you're not screwing around, you are scum. If you are town, you need to hear this: You ARE screwing around, and it's hurting us. Town needs to work as a team. It doesn't matter how well you think you've read the other people playing. You are making yourself seem suspicious, so no one here is willing to follow your leads. This isn't poker. It's a team game. If you're town, you owe it to us not to act the way you've been. Either play better, or continue to be as anti-town as you've been and get lynched. It won't be our fault; it will be yours. If Penguins of S wasn't doing the same thing as you in addition to his Mason revelations, I think all of his votes would be on you right now.

[GnKoichi]

Rofl, I haven't said anything about who you're voting for, so for you to come back and accuse me of defending anyone, let alone calling me scum in the process, is way over the top. And THAT's you're problem. You are so far over the top that you are no longer helping town. And yes we DO need to work as a team. We don't know who to trust, so it's a town player's job to be TRUSTWORTHY! If we can't trust you, you look like scum. If you think you're so good at calling who is scum, don't you want people to believe you? Don't you want to provide analysis so that you can convince others to vote along side you? If you don't care about those things, you might as well not play, because getting the town on the same page and lynching a scum together is the only way to win this game. You care about that or you are scum yourself. Simple as that. Again, if Penguins of S wasn't doing the same thing and worse, you'd be my target right now.

[GnKoichi]

Alvin, don't excuse Rofl. Whether or not he's normally this way, he's still acting anti-town. If he does it every game, he hurts every game he's in. He's hurting us now, and I'll dog him for it till he changes or dies.

[GnKoichi]

Copter is not acting anti-town at all. Where do you get this? He's expressing opinions, sticking his neck out, and moving things along. He doesn't hurt every game he's in, that's total and utter rubbish.

He claims to have all these amazing scum reads, but he gives no information. If he has this information and is withholding it, he's hurting town, as he passes on a chance to galvanize the town against a specific scum target. If he doesn't have this information, he's sowing chaos, which hurts town by giving scum a chance to organize or find an easy target.

[GnKoichi]

Okay, I didn't have time for a full read of the last day, so if I missed something important, please point it out to me:

Penguins of S: Pushing harder against Vino because he wouldn't claim at L-3!? I wouldn't claim at that point. I don't know anyone who would. You've invented so many reasons to push this lynch. Why don't you spend that energy building an actual case instead of a house of cards? Oh yeah, because you're scum.

Rofl: You still haven't responded to my analysis of WHY I think your actions are anti-town (again, unless I missed it on my skim-read). Please let me know what you think.

[GnKoichi]

I usually get along with rolfcopter too, but I guess he found another penguin to fly with.

Anyways, the self-vote was REALLY scummy. The next vote will not be the hammer if it takes 9 to lynch if Vino is right.

It sounds like you're anxious for a lynch, scum..

WHAT!? Penguins of S, you self voted! The only reason to ever do this is when you're scum and you want to cut a conversation short. You can't self vote and then accuse someone else of pushing an early lynch. Especially when the person you accuse says they would have unvoted to prevent you from reaching L-1. This is clearing just an attempt at sowing more chaos, like you've done all game. I WILL push your lynch. I WILL call for a hammer, and when I do so, it will NOT be pushing an early lynch. Your lynch is late in my eyes.

[GnKoichi]

To clarify: PoS is at L-2, not L-1. The next vote against him will not be the hammer.

PoS: If you wanted to lend credibility to your scum list, you should have provided better analysis all game. You've done almost nothing to actually analyze other players. You've simply been yelling scum in all directions. Rofl has done something similar, though he has provided marginally more analysis (really, not by much) and he hasn't made the mistake you made of outing the entire Mason group for a bad gambit (bad since we don't know how many scum [if any] are on the Mason team). For this reason, you are getting lynched, and you helping that lynch is a scum move, not a town one.

If this is some kind of elitism thing for you and rofl, drop it. Town has it hard enough as it is. If either of you are town, you need to realize how much you are hurting us. If you really have this experience in the game where you can make these amazing reads, it's your responsibility to make the case. If you just yell "scum" and then flail about for a few pages, you can't get mad at us when we think you're more suspicious than your target. You have created this situation, and if you flip town, the only thing we will have learned is what a bad town player you really are.

[GnKoichi]

Cross post, obviously PoS is now at L-3.

And nice try with that trap, PoS, but no one is going to fall for it. You self-vote, claim that a hammer is coming, then wait for someone to try and hammer you, point out that it ISN'T a hammer, unvote, and call the other player scummy for pushing an early lynch. YOU are scummy for setting such a HORRIBLY trap.

[GnKoichi]

PoS, I've been voting for you for a long time. Are you even paying attention? I can't even respond to your wall of posts except to say that almost everything you said was a lie. You deny things that anyone can confirm by rereading the last two or three pages. If there are specific things anyone OTHER than you can't find, I'll quote them, but everything I accused you of was accurate.

[GnKoichi]

Honestly, KoC has little reason to defend himself. This game has rewarded players like rofl and PoS, so he might as well play as poorly as they have. Frankly, I'm getting a little fed up myself, though I'm going to keep pushing what I feel is the pro-town action. My vote stays on PoS until anyone looks worse, and I urge everyone to carefully reread the game and refocus on a real scum hunt.

[GnKoichi]

I refuse to respond to anyone who makes a purposefully cut off quote. Right now, that's Yos & PoS.

[GnKoichi]

Penguins, the game has rewarded Rofl because despite his terrible play style, your worse play style and a handful of players who make excuses for him have pulled away any votes that he would have gotten. If the rest of this game were NORMAL, I think he would have been lynched by now for his baseless accusations.

NOW, please stop trying to evade. Do you have anything to say about how KoC is clearly emulating your terrible strategies in order to avoid a lynch? Do you think KoC is scummy for his actions? Do you think there's a difference between what he did and what you did? I really want specifics on this one, PoS.

[GnKoichi]

I'm getting a heightened scum alert from GnKoichi for post #598 (everything about it is OFF and against common sense)

What about it is against common sense? This seems like OMGUS, if anything.

He may be saying this because KoC has painted ScumCougar into a corner - by acting like me, ScumCougar has to vote against KoC to be consistent, but he's not ready to vote his buddy as quickly as he was to vote me.

Voting for KoC would not necessarily be showing consistency, since many of us find you scummy for many reasons in addition to your self vote, and KoC's self vote can be seen as a fed up townie much more easily than yours.

[GnKoichi]

Penguins, the game has rewarded Rofl because despite his terrible play style,

But why are you picking on Rofl in particular? How about Empking & Empking's Alt???? I mean, have you read his posts in isolation? MafiaSSK? Empking especially!

How about this mysterious Empking post?

PoS: If you and KoC turn up scum, will you admit to playing anti-town?

It's a logical tongue-twister without a solution. Why does he even bother making posts like this?

So I find it strange that you are singling out Copter. And if your complaint is baseless accusation, I'd go straight to ScumCougar, but perhaps he's more aggressive and you don't want to take him on?

I can admit that you and rofl may have gotten me a little tunneled. But honestly, that's because you have both played so blatantly anti-town. If Empking or others are guilty of the same things as you, they are only to a lesser extent. I'll lynch the greatest of the evils, if that's okay with you.

NOW, please stop trying to evade.

It's rather hypocritical for you to suggest that I'm trying to evade anything since I've been posting like a madman, and totally sticking my neck out, while YOU JUST REFUSED TO ANSWER A QUESTION asked by TWO players because YOUR POST was NOT RE-POSTED in its ENTIRETY, mere MINUTES AGO.

This is another evasion on your part. Also, my refusal to answer your questions was because the rest of the quote was important to the sentence. You purposefully left out the part where I attack you as well as rofl, and Yos left out the part that gives my quote context, so that he could try to apply a fragment to a different situation.

Do you have anything to say about how KoC is clearly emulating your terrible strategies in order to avoid a lynch?

My strategy was to speed up my lynch, not to avoid it. KoC is not emulating me, he is parodying me. Words do matter. Use the right ones if you don't want to be misleading.

Do you think KoC is scummy for his actions? Do you think there's a difference between what he did and what you did? I really want specifics on this one, PoS.

There are huge differences between what he's doing and what I did. For you to suggest that there may be similarities, other than superficial ones, is quite wrong, if not straight up scummy.

The fact that he prematurely claimed vanilla has given me pause. Unlike others that have condemned him for claiming vanilla without having to, I view this as a sign that he may be town, rather than scum. His pre-claim behavior was mega-scummy, so I'm not sure the early vanilla claim is enough of a counterweight to make me change my mind. If he becomes rational again, I'd be actually consider unvoting.

This another giant evade. You go three paragraphs without coming even close to answering my questions.

[GnKoichi]

Oh, and to specify on the second quoted section, you posting often is NOT being pro-town. You have stuck your neck out, but you've done almost nothing to back up any of your claims. That's the kind of evasion I'm accusing you of.

[GnKoichi]

unvote

PoS, you finally brought some real analysis to the table. I hate that it took this huge wagon for you to start acting a little more pro-town, but you've managed to string together good reasons for most of your actions in a short period of time. I still don't understand why you didn't just do this when I asked half a game ago, but whatever. The biggest problem I had with you were your baseless accusations. Now that those are gone, I'm going to cast my net wider.

vote: Yosarian

In Post #630, you ignore that I already clarified that point. You used a fragment of my quote in order to apply it to a different situation. If you would have used the whole quote, it would have been clear to everyone that the context didn't match your question.

In Post #631, you say that I haven't clarified why I felt Rofl & PoS were playing Anti-Town, even though that's pretty much ALL I've talked about ALL GAME! If you disagree with me, that's one thing, but to try to discredit me by pretending I'm not backing up my points, that's scummy.

[GnKoichi]

Oh, and to answer Yos's question, so he can't say I'm just making excuses to avoid talking about KoC: He honestly didn't show up on my radar before he melted down. I'd have to reread, which I plan on doing for other reasons, but he seemed pretty null in my mind before he self voted, and I'm willing to excuse that because of the context it came in (we all just saw PoS avoid a lynch by self voting, and he and I were extremely frustrated by this).

[GnKoichi]

Honestly, Yos, no. I have no desire to do any of that. Call me scummy for it, but considering how so few people in this game have done anything to back up their opinions, I'm tired of being questioned so hard by people.

unvote

I'll admit, this is coming from frustration. This game is just way too much work, mostly because the overly aggressive style from many players has made it really hard for those of us who focus on logic and evidence to keep up. it's way too much work for something that's just supposed to be fun. I'm going to take a back seat for now and when I'm caught up enough to help, I will. Until then, screw it.

[GnKoichi]

Okay, I've been rereading. There are a lot of people I've been suspicious of for many reasons. There are many things that may be scum tells but may also be this terrible meta that I simply don't agree with or the frustrations caused by said meta. There is ONE thing, however, which was purely scummy, and which I never saw a good explanation for.

vote: Litral

His attack on Numberfourteen around Pages 6-8 was terribly scummy. Now, Litral has dropped off the map, perhaps hoping he won't put his foot in his mouth like that again, and trusting others to draw the ire of town.

However, KoC, you've had time to cool off. Drop the act and return to scum hunting or I will vote you.

[GnKoichi]

This is part of your style, PoS, that I've struggled to understand. Why aim that post at Rofl? Obviously we can all read it, and we all should be interested in scum hunting. So, why do you seem to care more about communicating with one player instead of the whole town team?

[GnKoichi]

BSG, I think the two questions you asked me were answered later, but just in case you don't catch them on your reread:

In regards to rofl: My attacks weren't based on him not having reasons; they were based on him not stating his reasons. He makes a lot of baseless statements, and people need to be held accountable to their reasoning in this game.

In regards to coug: There was a misunderstanding, which is made clear in a post a little bit past where you are now, I think. But in retrospect, it was an understandable confusion. What ended up fueling me in that argument was the fact that coug couldn't see how he possibly misunderstood something, and the correct interpretation seemed pretty clear to me. This made me think he was mistaken on purpose, to create an action he could back out of later without much hassle. Honestly, I think it was a bad push on my part a this point.

[GnKoichi]

Do you trust him for anything in this game, or because of your history together? Is it possible that from trusting him in other games, you have some sort of reverse tunnelvision? Not that I think rofl has been overtly scummy (though I think both of your strategies are somewhat anti-town, as has been stated), but do you think you would be willing to call him scummy if you saw it? Would you feel comfortable outing someone you believe you could spot a tell in easily?

[GnKoichi]

Empking: There was an attack made against KoC, some time around the near lynching of PoS (someone else could do a better job than I of summarizing the attack itself). Instead of defending himself in any way, he flipped out. He self voted, we all pretty much think in emulation (or parody) of PoS. I think he's upset, as was I, that we missed the chance to lynch a player as frustrating as PoS, but this is taking it too far. If his point was that bad players are surviving, he's made it. It's time to be productive again. Otherwise he just looks like scum using a gimmick instead of an actual defense.

[GnKoichi]

Alright, I know that no one has to believe me at this point, but my PM matches that of #14, and Yos and PoS both seemed truthful in their attempts to confirm #14's towniness. For me, and for assumably one other person, this narrows the Mason Scum list to two people. I know it has to be OP or Lowell and (assuming there's only one) the other townie has it narrowed down to two (myself and the other).

So, I'm going to

unvote

and

vote: lowell

for his part in the same thing I was voting litral for (the forced wagon on #14 back around page 6/7). If we've got a fifty percent chance of getting scum, I'm happy pushing that direction.

Or there's no Scum Masons and the Mafias are laughing their asses off right now.

I'm also going to try to reread OP in isolation to compare him to Lowell.

[GnKoichi]

Oh, yeah, and I think we should get a new quick topic.

*facepalm @ #14*

[GnKoichi]

I said that no one had to believe me. But since I happen to trust Yos & PoS's discussion, and #14 is pretty much confirmed town, I wanted to give the full explanation of my vote changing to lowell.

Also, rofl, seriously. Getting a scum call from you is like getting a lollipop from the bank. I'm not going to feel special; everyone gets one.

[GnKoichi]

Oh, I read it. I see the point. You may have noticed that before that was quoted I had stopped attacking both you and PoS for those reasons. But don't expect a parade. I still disagree with that style, for the exact same reason why I don't trust you now. While your style may eventually trip up a scum, it also alienates the town players you attack in the process. If I'm called scum by a player who can't or chooses not to back it up, I'm less likely to trust that person's scum calls on other players, since I know at least one of them was BS. You can't have it both ways. Either play your way and stop worrying about my opinion of you, or play a different way.

[GnKoichi]

Interesting. Since my last posts, Rofl has declared me obviously scum (post #740), however I seem to have dropped off of PoS's most wanted list (compare posts #732 and #753). This may be the first time the two of you have openly disagreed. Would either of you care to discuss?

[GnKoichi]

Man, I keep forgetting things I want to say.

To follow up on my last post, I did reread OP. Very few posts, but mostly pro town in my mind. From my other games with OP, this fits his style.

I would like to hear from Litral, Lowell, and OP in regards to recent events.

[GnKoichi]

Why no Lowell? He's on the remaining list of possible scum masons, he participated in the same meaningless attack Litral did, and he's lurked since then.

Also, since I haven't posted anything since you said I had dropped off your radar a little bit, why am I suddenly back in your top three?

[GnKoichi]

Why no Lowell? He's on the remaining list of possible scum masons, he participated in the same meaningless attack Litral did, and he's lurked since then.

He outed the masonry, a terrible move for a scum mason to make. He's not on my list.

Isn't this WIFOM? Or, at the least, debatable? It seems an odd reason to completely discount the reasons I gave.

Also, since I haven't posted anything since you said I had dropped off your radar a little bit, why am I suddenly back in your top three?

By process of elimination.

Care to explain this?

[GnKoichi]

When was Lowell cleared? Seriously, was there a post I missed? Do you have any specific counter argument against my reasons?

[GnKoichi]

Why no Lowell? He's on the remaining list of possible scum masons, he participated in the same meaningless attack Litral did, and he's lurked since then.

He outed the masonry, a terrible move for a scum mason to make. He's not on my list.

Isn't this WIFOM? Or, at the least, debatable? It seems an odd reason to completely discount the reasons I gave.

I'm sorry. One cannot disregard every common sense or logical assumption by calling it WIFOM.

Also, since I haven't posted anything since you said I had dropped off your radar a little bit, why am I suddenly back in your top three?

By process of elimination.

Care to explain this?

Some masons are now confirmed in my view, after having seen their PMs.

1st Quote: You say Scum would never do Action X. I say, a scum MIGHT do Action X, for that exact reason, because no one would ever expect a scum player to do Action X, so it would make him look very town. This is the definition of WIFOM. Do you have anything better than this to discount my reasoning against Lowell?

2nd Quote: Yes, except that happened BEFORE your opinion of me changed for the better. Nothing happened related to that in between your opinion of me being better and then turning worse again. I'm questioning your timing. If this is confusing, here's the timeline:

1) You say I'm in your top three suspects

2) The PMs are posted, possibly clearing half the Masons.

3) You say I'm being more reasonable, and am no longer in the top suspects.

4) You say I'm back in the top suspects

5) I ask what changed.

6) You cite #2 as your reasoning, even though the change came between #3 and #4.

So, what actually changed?

[GnKoichi]

I just realized that PoS is in no way cleared by the PM discussion. I reread that whole section, and realized that all the info PoS gave had already been confirmed by both #14 and Yos, so everything she said could have been a lie to tie herself into the two suddenly town masons.

Given this, plus her complete refusal to accept an attack against a legitimate target (Lowell) and her strange changing of mind (see my last post) I feel very comfortable returning to this line of attack.

unvote, vote: Penguins of the Serengeti

However, I'm less sure of this than I was of the Lowell attack for this reason: When I 'knew' that Lowell had a 50% chance of being the Scum Mason, it felt very safe to attack him rather than a non-Mason scummy player (better probability, obviously). Now that PoS is 1 of 3, instead of 1 of 2, the percentage is not as great as it was. Litral is still my top non-Mason target, so I would CONSIDER voting for him based on PoS's answers to my last questions, and Litral's own continued lurking.

[GnKoichi]

Yos, my opinion of her was clear.

Regarding her refusal to accept an attack on Lowell, she does not need to be scum to defend a player with poor reasons. She may be trying to discredit me by trying to make my attacks look bad.

Her change of mind can be clearly seen. Here are the posts you need to read to see the timeline I described:

732, 753, 774, 784, 787, 793

The analysis of these posts are in my post with the timeline in it. I can't make it any clearer than this.

[GnKoichi]

I'm tempted to just say "PoS, you never back up your reasoning. Why should I?" But then I lose my moral high ground, and we can't have that. So!

However, I'm less sure of this than I was of the Lowell attack for this reason: When I 'knew' that Lowell had a 50% chance of being the Scum Mason, it felt very safe to attack him rather than a non-Mason scummy player (better probability, obviously). Now that PoS is 1 of 3, instead of 1 of 2, the percentage is not as great as it was. Litral is still my top non-Mason target, so I would CONSIDER voting for him based on PoS's answers to my last questions, and Litral's own continued lurking.

What???

Show your full calculations, or you get no marks.

When I had the following assumptions:

a) There is at least 1 Scum Mason.
b) PoS, #14, and Yos have all been cleared as Town Masons.

Then I could safely vote for either OP or Lowell (since I knew I was another Town Mason) and there was a 50% chance that I had picked the right one. These are MUCH better odds than picking a target out of the non-Masons. I felt Lowell was scummier than OP, so it seemed like a really good push.

Then, I realized that you, PoS, were not really cleared. So! That means it's between you, Lowell, and OP. I felt you were the scummiest of those three, but now it's a 33% chance, which isn't as good as 50%.

Obviously some of my assumptions may be wrong (there may be more or less than 1 Scum Mason, or Yos or #14 could have faked their PMs in some way). This is just the direction I'm going in, because it's the best we've got.

Given this, plus her complete refusal to accept an attack against a legitimate target (Lowell)

You're going to have to explain to everyone how having a contrarian view on who I feel is townie means that I'm scum.

and her strange changing of mind (see my last post) I feel very comfortable returning to this line of attack.

You're going to have to explain to the class why changing one's mind means one is scum. Come on, we're listening.

I'm not accusing you of disagreeing with me or changing your mind. I'm accusing you of disagreeing with me on the basis of a single debatable point and changing your mind when nothing had happened which could have conceivably caused this change. And both of these points have been put into enough detail that there's no reason you couldn't have responded.

[GnKoichi]

unvote, vote: Penguins of the Serengeti

Is this your 3rd wagon hop? Seriously, what are you aimming for? Who is your primary suspect?

There's a lot going on in this game, so I think a vote moving a bit isn't too bad. Wagon hopping is also a bad way to describe it, as most of my votes have not been adding to wagons and I've given plenty of reasons all game.

Right now my #1 suspect is Litral, #2 is PoS. The reason my vote is on PoS and not Litral is the percentages thing I explained before. Assuming the Mason things are accurate, then there's a better chance of catching a scum player among those three non-confirmed Masons (obviously four for other people, since I'm the only one who knows for sure that I'm town myself) than among the general player pool.

[GnKoichi]

First of all, PoS, why not respond to post #817 in your last post?

Secondly, I noticed something in my PM. It is slightly different! Now, it's possibly that mine was a mistake, or that Yos & #14 edited out the mistake if it indeed went to everyone. However, this may be the key to unlocking who REALLY had the PM, and who pieced it together to form a lie.

SO! If anyone (#14, Yos, PoS, Lowell, OP) can tell me the difference between the real PM and the PM Yos posted (quoted below for reference) I think we may have something.

(shrug) I donno about "confirm", but here's the real mason PM.

Name: Straight G
Flavor: Your a gansterlicious pimp.
Alignment: Town--You win when all non-neutral factions besides the town are dead.
Role: Mason
Passive Abilities

The Shady Lady

: Each night, you may speak to the other people who go to The Shady Lady Gentlemen's Club at this quicktopic(http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/9bnWjUfcej5). The people who attend this fine establishment are orangepenguin, Yosarian2, GnKoichi, Lowell, Penguins of the Sarengeti, Numberfourteen.

Confirm In-thread.

[GnKoichi]

PoS, you asked me to explain. You can't ask that and then complain that my explanation is boring. Whether it held your attention or not, it's a legitimate line of accusations. Your response is a cop out. Answer.

[GnKoichi]

PoS, you asked me to explain. You can't ask that and then complain that my explanation is boring. Whether it held your attention or not, it's a legitimate line of accusations. Your response is a cop out. Answer.

I understand your explanation. Your question, however, is boring. I sometimes change my mind, and since I post a lot, I am not always 100% consistent. It's not a legitimate line of accusation in my case, unless there was some sinister twist to it, which you don't even suggest yourself.

I noticed that you haven't addressed my suggestion that you are gambitting scum over that PM stuff. Now, that's important.

It IS a legitimate line of accusations. Inconsistency is scummy, especially when you are untruthful about your reasons, which you were. You said something changed your mind, except the order of events makes that statement a lie. Since then, you've done everything you can to evade having to defend that lie or to give a better reason for your inconsistency. Lies are scummy. Do you disagree? As for the other side of the argument, that you disagreed with me in regards to Lowell, you seemed VERY secure in a town read on Lowell based on a single debatable point. I tried to engage you in this discussion, and you ignored it. Why are you unwilling to defend your opinions?

As for not addressing the gambit accusation, I don't want to comment too much on this until we get more responses. That sounds understandable, doesn't it?

[GnKoichi]

Inconsistency is scummy,

Oh. Is it, really? I mean, only the scum know who is scum and who is town from Day 1. Why would they be more inconsistent than townies? Sounds like an idea pulled out of one's hat.

Scum players have to lie, town players do not. When you lie, you run the risk of getting caught, and to avoid that chance, people often give bad reasons for changing their mind. This is kind of inconsistency I see in you.

...especially when you are untruthful about your reasons, which you were. You said something changed your mind, except the order of events makes that statement a lie.

Yeah, maybe I've posted 10 posts per page, and it's Day 1, and there are a lot of players, and I don't even know what you are referring to as a LIE.

If you don't know this, you haven't been reading my posts at all. I made it insanely clear before you started this dodging game. To clarify AGAIN you said that your mind changed to put me back in your top three because of process of elimination, thanks to the PMs. HOWEVER your opinion of me actually IMPROVED directly after the PMs were revealed, by your own word. After that, NOTHING regarding myself or the PMs occured, and after that you said that I was BACK in your top 3. The PMs could not have been the reason for your change of mind, because of the order in which things occurred. That makes your statement a lie. NOW RESPOND OR BE SCUM!

Since then, you've done everything you can to evade having to defend that lie or to give a better reason for your inconsistency. Lies are scummy. Do you disagree?

When did I stop beating my wife?

Evasion.

As for the other side of the argument, that you disagreed with me in regards to Lowell, you seemed VERY secure in a town read on Lowell based on a single debatable point.

Yeah. Debatable according to those that debated it. I feel strongly about it, yes.

You are free to feel strongly about it, but I've provided a counter point. It's your turn to either

a) Provide a better reason than my own counter point.
b) Admit I had a better point and change your mind.
c) Admit that you are making baseless town reads and be SCUM AND LYNCHED.

Why are you unwilling to defend your opinions?

Sorry for lurking, I'll try to post more, but you know, RL, LA...

This has been clarified by many. You are not lurking. But your reasons are too few and far between for you to be considered pro-town. I have explained this in full, but I'll do it again, and if you plan to ignore me again, than keep in mind that you only prove me right.

If you continue to make baseless accusations of scum and town, you are only sowing chaos. Yes, you may trip up scum by making them feel on guard, but you are also alienate the town who you accuse. I am town, and you've accused me, so no matter how good your scum reads in the future may be, I am less likely to believe you, because I know your attacks against me are BS. Also, your claims of town for little or no reasons are not going to make scum feel on guard. If Lowell is scum, you've made his game easier, not harder. Do you disagree on anything particular in this?

[GnKoichi]

blah blah blah

I decided I would humor you, but give specific quotes. Your list of post numbers is just too annoying. I have to figure out the posts, and I'm not going to start guessing what you're referring to. Note that I never bothered to actually do that tiresome exercise of trying to figure out exactly what you were getting at.

What's with the quote? In response to my attacks, you make fun of me?

I'm done. My case against you is complete. You can choose to defend yourself or not, but now it's up to other players believing my case and taking you out.

[GnKoichi]

blah blah blah

I decided I would humor you, but give specific quotes. Your list of post numbers is just too annoying. I have to figure out the posts, and I'm not going to start guessing what you're referring to. Note that I never bothered to actually do that tiresome exercise of trying to figure out exactly what you were getting at.

Nevermind, here are the quotes, so you can't say I left anything out.

Keep in mind that the role PMs were posted BEFORE any of these quotes:

SCUM

Litral
Empking's Alt
GnKoichi

LEANING SCUM

orangepenguin
StrangerCoug

GENDER CONFUSED

Numberfourteen

LEANING TOWN

Head_Honcho
tyhess/KoC
MafiaSSK
alvinz95

TOWN

Lowell
Vino
Penguins of the Serengeti
Yosarian2
crywolf20084/BSG
roflcopter

I keep trying to catch up on this and it keeps getting a bunch of new pages, I'm working my way through this. Are we in an urgent state in any way currently or do I have time?

Empking and Litral are scum. We're going to have to lynch them sooner or later.

Interesting. Since my last posts, Rofl has declared me obviously scum (post #740), however I seem to have dropped off of PoS's most wanted list (compare posts #732 and #753). This may be the first time the two of you have openly disagreed. Would either of you care to discuss?

You seem more reasonable than you did earlier on. However, as I eliminate masons that are townier than you from my scum mason list, that means that by default there is a higher likelihood that you may be the scum mason. It's nothing you do. It's by default.

Let's get our act together and lynch one of Litral, Empking's Alt, or GnKoichi.

Also, since I haven't posted anything since you said I had dropped off your radar a little bit, why am I suddenly back in your top three?

By process of elimination.

Also, since I haven't posted anything since you said I had dropped off your radar a little bit, why am I suddenly back in your top three?

By process of elimination.

Care to explain this?

Some masons are now confirmed in my view, after having seen their PMs.

The last post is a lie, because his change of mind clearly happened at a time when the PMs could not have been your reason.

[GnKoichi]

*your change of mind, not his.

[GnKoichi]

Also, since I haven't posted anything since you said I had dropped off your radar a little bit, why am I suddenly back in your top three?

By process of elimination.

Care to explain this?

Some masons are now confirmed in my view, after having seen their PMs.

The last post is a lie, because his change of mind clearly happened at a time when the PMs could not have been your reason.

Why the hell not? It WAS my reason. It was a totally valid reason. What are you talking about?

It was an invalid reason because after the role PMs were revealed, your opinion of me actually improved, which can be clearly seen in the quotes I posted. So, it is, at the very least, questionable that you would site the PMs as your reason for then thinking worse about me later. It's just plain scummy that you would avoid answering this question for as long as you have.

[GnKoichi]

Yos, and PoS claim they have PMs that match #14's exactly. Lowell and OP have given no information about their PMs. I am inclined to think that either the mod made a mistake in GnKoichi's individual PM, or GnKoichi wants another anti-town mason to "confirm" that the other PMS are phony. If anybody confirmed GnKoichi's PM variation right now, barring any unforeseen variations to this scenario we would confirm a scum in my opinion, and I would immediately vote and lynch their ass into eternity.

This looks like the perfect plan.

Doesn't matter now. If there is a group of people who are ready to lynch the first person who points out a difference, no one will come out and say it. Congratulations Vino for disarming a perfectly legitimate trap.

[GnKoichi]

It was an invalid reason because after the role PMs were revealed, your opinion of me actually improved, which can be clearly seen in the quotes I posted. So, it is, at the very least, questionable that you would site the PMs as your reason for then thinking worse about me later. It's just plain scummy that you would avoid answering this question for as long as you have.

No - it was perfectly valid. Proven mason trumps posted content - by process of elimination.

All you've proven is that I've been perfectly consistent.

This doesn't even make sense, and does nothing to address the problem, which is the TIMELINE! I assume everyone (except Rofl) will see this. Again, I'm done.

[GnKoichi]

Okay, I can accept at this point that either my PM has a typo in it (the difference was an extra

bold tag

, so it looked like this in the mason section.

I can quote if anyone wants to see it, but its something easily faked, so I doubt it would clear any ire I've drawn from this Gambit), or everyone saw what Vino said about the trap and simply said, "well, I'll pretend there's nothing different so that people don't vote for me".

Either way, what's even going on in the game at this point? Litral hasn't posted anything. Nobody seems to hold any stock in my last argument against PotS. No one else has drawn enough suspicion to be worth pushing. What do people think?

[GnKoichi]

Requesting

Prod: Alvinz & Head Honcho

Seriously, there are plenty more who have contributed very little over the last four or five days. Someone new needs to start pushing something or we're not going to get a lynch in by the deadline.

[GnKoichi]

Because he was my second choice for a lynch, and I do not want to risk going to deadline without a lynch, I'm going to say

unvote, vote: Litral

.

[GnKoichi]

The masons that answered Koichi's challenge have sworn that they have not noticed even the smallest discrepancy.

However, Koichi's PM is different.

That tells me that a least, HE is not like the rest of us.

For someone who want to make the Litral wagon happen very recently, you're making it really hard to not vote you. The masons answers mean nothing, since Vino disarmed the gambit before most people could respond. They were influenced by him saying he would vote for anyone who said their PM was different, so now we can't take anything from it. This is such a weak push by you to continue to make me look bad. Seriously, you're grasping at straws to make me look like scum.

[GnKoichi]

One interesting thing about Mafia is that any scum finding techniques are subject to statistical arbitrage. That is, the more people know about a scum-finding technique, the less effective it becomes, as the scum are more likely to mislead town by accusing townies of it, and less likely to actually perform it themselves.

AH!

AH!!!!!

Vino, that's exactly what you did with my PM Gambit! You just admitted to acting exactly how you think scum would act surrounding a scum hunt.

unvote, vote: Vino

With Litral getting replaced, he's unfortunately harder to lynch (bad mod call, in my opinion. Should have replaced SC first).

[GnKoichi]

Vino said that the more people who are aware of a scum hunting technique, the less effective it is. If he was aware of this, why would he disarm my scum hunting attempt surrounding the PM? Town might have done this by mistake, talking about the gambit in a way that inadvertently disarms it. Except Vino has proven that he thinks of the game in a way where he must have been aware that his actions were going to make people aware of the situation, and thus make it less effective. Only scum would do this knowingly.

[GnKoichi]

Okay, no one can claim that this is me talking down to anyone. PotS asked for the dumb person version. Here it is:

- Vino ruined a scum hunt attempt by calling attention to it.

- Vino later made a statement that he thinks scum hunts are less effective the more people are aware of them.

- If Vino thinks it benefits the scum team to show people how certain scum hunts work, why would he do it?

Answer: Because he, himself, is scum.

[GnKoichi]

OK.

Now assume that I have an IQ in the NEGATIVE triple digits and only two brain cells, one that stops me from urinating all over my chair, and a second one that inhibits the first.

- Vino said my cake was bad.

- Vino said only bad people hate cake.

- Vino is a bad person.

As for you your defense of yourself, Vino, whether you were talking about an idea larger than the game or one withing it (and yes, I understood your macroconcept perfectly), it still shows an understanding of the game which you yourself went against. The larger concept works on a smaller scale as well. You understood that the more people are looking for something, the less effective they are. Still, you made everyone look for something in my gambit, thus disarming it. Whether or not we lynch a mason or whether it made sense was not your decision to make. It had a chance of working, until you posted, and then it didn't. Now I know that you understood this from the beginning, which means your action was very anti-town. Die scum die.

P.S. Seriously? Telling me to go take an economics course? This is a game. You don't know anything about me, so resorting to this kind of low-class insult just shows what type of person you are. A null-tell in terms of your scumminess, but very informative in terms of your personality.

[GnKoichi]

You've disagreed with the details of how I caught you in this, but you've admitted to the core of my point. You disarmed my trap knowingly. It wasn't an unfortunate side effect of your comments. It was your objective. ANY scum hunting technique has a chance of working. It wasn't hurting town to try. Also, if we CATCH a scum mason, that throws the not-lynching-a-mason idea out the window, because scum is scum. Or do you think we should let a scum mason off the hook if we have the chance to catch one? Because that's exactly what you just admitted to doing. Yes, you have the right to disarm any trap you want to, and I have the right to call you scum for doing so.

[GnKoichi]

And seriously? Quoting the cake thing? Why not argue with my actual point, not my joking attempt to indulge PotS?

[GnKoichi]

I'm going to be honest, if the majority of town continues to pussyfoot around, we're going to lose this game. I lost my first game here because town was completely incapable of defending themselves. I don't want to lose this game just because town doesn't care.

[GnKoichi]

If we miss a deadline, that gives scum the advantage, because they basically get a free kill against us. A lynch is more than just a chance to kill scum. It's a chance to gain information. Without that, we have no chance.

[GnKoichi]

I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I'd like to lynch Litral/You came in this post:

I know you guys keep mentioning me somehow, but I stopped reading the argument when people started talking about misunderstanding the misunderstanding of misunderstandings... Is there any question directed at me or my comments?

Lowell's opinion is exactly mine I got weak scum vibes from StrangerCoug earlier (because of all the strange misunderstandings and several rather pointless posts), but they have not amounted to anything.

So...

unvote, vote: Numberfourteen

. Hey. Speak up.

He admits to trying to use Lowell's anxiousness to start a random bandwagon. Randwagoning (yes, I'm coining a new term, because I'm tired of typing random bandwagoning in this topic [yes, it took me even longer to type this explanation]) is scummy. There's no pro-town side to this action.

After Number14 responds, we get this post from Litral:

Numberfourteen, that opinion of roflcopter is not a weak opinion at all. It is the sort of thing we would like to hear.

Unfortunately for you, because of that, I'm going to keep my vote.

I don't see any way to read this except as pure scum. He pushed 14 for lurking, then 14 posts and gives good opinions, and Litral says that's his new reason for voting him. Litral creates a situation where, no matter what 14 had done, Litral was going to say it was a reason to vote for him. Since then, he's been completely unable to defend himself, and seems to me like scum who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar really early and decided to say "forget this" and just wait until he got replaced.

Others may have more/different reasons, but that's my reasons. Now, I don't expect you to defend yourself for Litral's actions. I think it would be pretty odd if you did, frankly. I want to hear your analysis of the game, the major players, the different wagons that have come and gone, and who you think is Public Enemy #1. Normally I would say take your time, but I'm worried about our reads on people getting tainted as the deadline approaches (as in, they can excuse their actions away by "it's 24 hours from the deadline, so I'm just doing this"), so, instead, hurry. Get a good read through done in a few hours, keep notes, post 'em, and generally try to survive this trial by fire.

That, or we could just lynch you.

[GnKoichi]

Hey, look, Admiral is town. Didn't see that coming.

[GnKoichi]

Rofl, bringing up other games as the VERY FIRST THING you use to defend yourself is basically admitting that you have NOTHING to defend yourself with in this game.

[GnKoichi]

Really, PotS, that's what you're going to comment on? No thoughts on my Vino case after I reworded it three times for you? No thoughts on Admiral's first post? No? You're just going to continue this playstyle? Really? And then defend it when you get called out on it? Really? And then attack other players for doing similar things? REALLY!?

[GnKoichi]

ThAd is still town.

PotS is even more scum.

Vino has done nothing to make me want to move my vote.

People who are not participating NEED to participate.

[GnKoichi]

No.

I'm learning how to play this game from you, PotS. Am I getting better?

[GnKoichi]

There is no collective wisdom, since the majority of players aren't contributing. There's no grain to go against. There is no authority. There is no consensus. I find it extremely interesting that this is (at least) the second time you've acted like most people agree to something in order to make someone else look like an outsider.

Also, no, you do not explain when asked. You have, occasionally, backed up your accusations. But this is not the norm for you in this game, which is something I've vocally criticized you for many times.

I meant the "learning how to play" comment as a joke, but it's amazing that you would be so hypocritical to not even see that.

[GnKoichi]

...the second time you've acted like most people agree to something in order to make someone else look like an outsider.

And isn't your mason PM different from that of the other masons?

I don't know. Vino made it so we can't trust what anyone said, remember? Like, that's the reason I gave for voting for him? Maybe I would be more willing to give reasons for my posts if you would stop pretending to forget them.

[GnKoichi]

Whoa. Good catch Townmiral.

unvote, vote: Rofl

[GnKoichi]

Sure, as ThAd pointed out, Rofl accused me of scumminess way back when. This was the first time I called one of you out on not backing up your accusations. But then it got lost in the giant shuffle of misreads, pm claims, and continued baseless scum calls. Unless ThAd and I are wrong, he never came back and explained what he said he saw in my post that was scummy. That's a long time to wait for a simple answer that any town player should have been able to provide.

[GnKoichi]

I think it's worth it considering that was the first time in a long pattern of baseless accusations from both you and PotS. It set the stage for the two of you to get away with whatever you wanted.

[GnKoichi]

Fine.

Your point: My attack on SC was bullshit.
My counterpoint: No, it wasn't.

Between you asking me to defend against an argument you haven't actually made and PotS asking people to explain when he never does himself, it's a wonder either of you are still in the game.

[GnKoichi]

I don't think you actually explained anything. You say the attack was BS, but gave no reason why. You also admitted that half of your reasons, the defending of ssk, was moot. So, where in that was I supposed to find you not worthy of my vote? Not like it matters. The players who aren't playing are making it impossible to lynch anyone, so we're going to go to deadline without a lynch.

[GnKoichi]

unvote, vote: gnkoichi

Honestly, I'm not enjoying this game because of Rofl and PotS. This is still one of my first four games on the site, but I'm starting to get a feel for how my meta looks and feels to other players. If it makes me look a bit scummy, that's fine. But I think it's crazy that those two players get excused for their meta when it looks like a giant scum tell to me. I'll happily die so you can see I'm town. Then maybe you'll look more closely at those two, and I won't have to run against the brick wall that is this game anymore.

[GnKoichi]

PotS is an alt of DGB.

[GnKoichi]

In other news please note that I haven't been returning any of the gnkoichi love that I have been receiving (although it is nice to have a special someone for valentines day!) as I am about as wary of it as I am of rolf/pots relationship.

I will say that I won't be voting gnkoichi as I feel he's been, for the most part, a somewhat solitary voice of reason in this, as rofl so aptly puts it, "carnival".

Will switch my vote if needed to avoid no lynch.

Jeez, ThAd, is it hard to run in those flip flops?

unvote, vote: ThAdmiral

[GnKoichi]

for people who think its fake because it doesn't have a role bit I can once again only say that it is exactly as nat gave it to me. I do note though that the example power role on page one doesn't have a role bit either.

The right play is to lynch someone else and then vig me tonight.

That makes no sense. If we try to vig you tonight, your role will protect you. How close are we to lynching this guy?

I guess I had questions to answer from a while back. As for why I thought ThAd was town at first was his good play in his first few posts. He gave honest analysis, mostly ignored the criticism against his predecessor, and made a few reads that I agreed with.

His flip didn't bother me because he said he was willing to lynch me to avoid a no lynch (which I was also prepared to do in order to help town find real scum after I was gone). It was because he said he was wary of me, then said he thought I was town, then said he was ready to vote for me. Those three were a very odd triangle of comments.

[GnKoichi]

Oh, I get it. Yeah, still doesn't work, as you pointed out.

[GnKoichi]

I just want to put it out there that I'm worried that the deadline is the beginning of the 18th, not the end, and with two active players (Head Honcho & Vino) who could put the deadline vote on ThAd, I'm not sure why one of you wouldn't. It's not a lynch, but 8 votes ensures a deadline lynch, right?

[GnKoichi]

Regardless of how I feel about Emp, I don't think there's any way to get a lynch moved in the next 24 hours, especially considering we still don't have enough to take out ThAd.

[GnKoichi]

Vote: PotS

#1166 just feel SOOOO manipulative. Too easy a target.

I also like the empking push, since #1174 is just silly. Voting for someone because it would be neat if something with no evidence ended up being true? No logic.

[GnKoichi]

Oh no, I meant she was making herself too easy a target for me to pass on. Sorry for being vague. I think she was being manipulative, because by making that plan and not mentioning anyone specific, she gets other people pointing fingers. She can then jump on a wagon, without looking like the instigator.

[GnKoichi]

Not only am I not Litral's partner, I'm also not scum. Which will be a really interesting post-game discussion if nothing else.

Anyways, I'm just checking in so as not to appear lurkful. Still think PotS was being manipulative today which, combined with her first day attacks, makes me very secure in my vote. Nothing else today seems worth noting. Most people just sound panicked, and a little paranoid, but I'm not seeing any major scum tells in it. A few people are keeping a leveler head, but that does not equate to innocence, so most of this day has been null in my mind.

[GnKoichi]

PotS is now trying to stay under the radar, since I caught her being tricky. One post with nothing of value in it.

There is way too much talk about the set-up and too little about the players. Rofl seems like the biggest pusher of that, which could be a power role trying to act like a thoughtful vanilla. Let's move past this. The set-up is strange, whatever it is, and speculation is useless. Get back to people or be scum from here on in.

[GnKoichi]

PotS is now trying to stay under the radar, since I caught her being tricky. One post with nothing of value in it.

There is way too much talk about the set-up and too little about the players. Rofl seems like the biggest pusher of that, which could be a power role trying to act like a thoughtful vanilla. Let's move past this. The set-up is strange, whatever it is, and speculation is useless. Get back to people or be scum from here on in.

lol speculating that i'm a power role in thread huh? you could not be more obvious scum.

Power roles can be town, scum or third party. I meant it seemed like you were trying to avoid suspicion by focusing on set up instead of analyzing the game.

[GnKoichi]

Based on what?

By process of elimination. He's not scum, so he's town.

Why is it so hard to get people to vote for you!?

[GnKoichi]

Based on what?

By process of elimination. He's not scum, so he's town.

Why is it so hard to get people to vote for you!?

I think the same could be said for you..but...I won't say it.

You just did. Don't act innocent.

[GnKoichi]

Here's the problem. PotS continues to lay low, which is a scum tell in my mind. She was too vocal a player to drop off the map like this when push comes to shove. There is something to be said for simply not saying anything when you are under suspicion. It's hard to get a wagon going against someone who is moderately inactive in the face of adversity.

On the other hand, Yos is dead on about Rofl and OP's play style today. There are no arguments being made against him, and these two are hounding him like he just claimed scum. He is correct that this tells us more about OP than it does about Rofl (Who's the more scummy? The scum? Or the scum who follows him?) but Rofl made a pretty underhanded bid to change the subject with his recent "So, what were you guys talking about last night?". Which could mean Yos was on to something and Rofl got a little worried.

So!

unvote, vote: OP

Let's do this thing.

[GnKoichi]

Koichi, are you pegging OP as CR or scum?

Scum is my gut on this one.

well i'm not at all surprised koichi scum tried to call my question about mason chat underhanded

PotS talking about lynching me at night is not exactly a surprise. He talked about it all day. I had no reason to be worried about this coming out, since he still hasn't actually built a case against me. Like you, he just keeps leveling baseless accusations. So, I feel my point about you changing the subject stands.

[GnKoichi]

Scum is my gut on this one.

So your vote is based off of gut and omgus. OMGUT.

I mean, at least Yos had a case and twisted my words around, but you ... you just are jumping on me cause nobody agrees with you on the other two and I am not those two, yet have been advocating for your lynch.

So yeah, pretty happy with my vote.

Misrepresentation.

First of all, my gut statement was that you are more likely scum than the CR. It wasn't a reason for the vote.

Secondly, it's really hypocritical for you to call my vote omgus. You voted for me AFTER I voted for YOU! If anyone had an omgus vote, it was you.

Not much happening. Let's wagon someone to the lynch. I'm already voting. We need more votes.

Completely unhelpful. You call for a wagon on "someone". However, by implying that you're not going to move your vote, you're really calling for more votes on Yos, without doing anything to build the case against him. This has done nothing to change your image as an active player who suddenly has something to be afraid of, causing you to lurk.

[GnKoichi]

Since my last post, OP gave a halfway reasonable response to one of my accusations. PotS couldn't even manage that. Post #1358 is more useless garbage from Potsy.

Yos, I don't like how the talk of strategy has taken over actual hunting. We don't know enough about the set up to draw charts or make plans to take down scum vs cults. Get back to actual play analysis. This also goes to those who have done nothing recently but try to counter Yos' strategy ideas. None of this is contributing to the game at this point.

Tempted to move my vote to Potsy. I'm going to leave it FOR NOW! I still think OP's and PotS' behaviors deserve to be looked at today more than other players.

[GnKoichi]

Vote count?

[GnKoichi]

unvote, vote: empking

I hate this game and I want it to end.

[GnKoichi]

Claims serve no purpose in this game. I thought you guys would have figured that out by now.

[GnKoichi]

I still believe that set-up talk in this game is near-worthless, considering every bit of information reinforces that this is a non-traditional set up. I think Vino voting at this point is very suspicious. I also don't really care about this game, since no matter what I say or do at this point will be seen as scummy. So!

vote: PotS

That's all. Good luck, whoever's left of the town team with me.

[GnKoichi]

I'm here. Like I said, no matter what I do at this point, You, Rofl, and PotS are going to call me scum because of it. I'm going to observe, and move my vote if I find a better target. Until then, PotS is the best vote in my opinion.

[GnKoichi]

This is what I keep saying about the set up talk. In my mind, there isn't a way to tell apart the CR from Mafia from SK from any other scum we may have, aside from minor things that are usually very WIFOM. Especially considering the strange set up with fake role PMs and a Mason SK. It doesn't seem worth it too me anymore to discuss this. I understand why you say it's important. I just don't think it leads to a healthy discussion on town's part.

Short answer, I think PotS is a non-town role, and that's good enough for me.

[GnKoichi]

Sure, let's find out.

unvote, vote: Vino

[GnKoichi]

unvote, vote: PotS

[GnKoichi]

unvote, vote: vino

For being a racist, being aware of his own racism, and then choosing to continue being racist anyways.

Also, don't vote Alvinz. That's a bad plan.

[GnKoichi]

Can we get a vote count, because I thought most of the people voting for Vino had unvoted.

[GnKoichi]

Do you honestly care, HH? This is a terrible set up, and we've been playing with people who refuse to play with anything resembling a strategy. Assuming either Rofl or PotS are town, we were screwed from the start by their style. Instead of dragging on Day 2, when we were bogged down by set up talk and accusations, I ended it. I did it without apology, so don't act like this was a ploy that I'm now repeating. It gave us information, but people in this game refuse to use it, and frankly I'm tired of trying to convince them.

Honestly, I stopped paying attention to the game. Vino said something horribly racist, even commenting that he knew it was racist, which made me want to play even less than before. I honestly didn't realize it was the hammer (was it? we still don't have a vote count. And if it wasn't, you should be mad at Vino, not me). But seriously, with this game, how upset can you be that it's closer to being over?

[GnKoichi]

On the Racist thing: You yourself said it was racist as you posted it. You can't try to say it wasn't racist now. Also, racist humor is still being racist.

On the game: Then why did you vote for yourself just in case my vote wasn't the hammer? You can't have it both ways. You're clearly just as fed up with this game as I am.

[GnKoichi]

Seriously? A racist joke is a racist action. You can make it without actually being a racist, but after enough of them, you have to ask, are you just a normal person who makes racist jokes, or are you a racist person who makes jokes? I don't think I over reacted. A lot of really unacceptable stuff gets ignored (or even encouraged) because it's the internet. Anonymity is no reason to not act like a decent human being. For all Vino knew, there were Asian players here in the game, or even running it, and he could have really offended someone. Even if there weren't, it wasn't a necessary comment, and he KNEW it was being racist (he said so in the post), yet he chose to say it anyway. Grow up, honestly.

And now no one can get mad at me if I was the hammer, since Vino said he wouldn't have claimed anyways. Again, be mad at Vino, not me.

[GnKoichi]

Continuing the Mass Claim. I'm townie mason, as I've said all along. I worry a little about HH's results (I think I believe that you're Cop). With so many weird roles in this game, we could have a... crap, I'm forgetting the word. A townie who tracks as scum. Just something to think about. We could also have the reverse, in a scum who tracks as town, just to throw us off even more (which seemed to be the aim of the set-up).

Obviously, someone did try to kill Alvinz last night. Rofl just used his doctor power to keep his team alive. His plan was to set up a night target so that it would be negated and wasted. Good plan. Now he's gone. I think he was one of the two people I said was scummy from the beginning. As for the other...

vote: PotS

[GnKoichi]

Whatever. Will this game be over sooner if I do this? I really just want to see who was scum. Don't care about winning anymore.

unvote, vote: GnKoichi