Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)
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Benmage
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Benmage Survivor
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Alrighty then, here’s my catchup post from whats been posted thus far. It’s done chronologically so if the start of my posts feelings shift by the end, so be it.
It is an interesting attempt Mastin could be employing here as scum. Especially as he so justly declared how he would have acted. But if he really was scum, wouldn’t acting the way one would expect you to act be illogical while acting in contrast to the predictable action be most rational.SpyreX wrote: However, the tinfoil says that Mastin as scum could go the brazen I wouldn't do this as scum because it would be awesome.
QFT, beautiful. I despise all lurkers.alexhans wrote: Im glad... but people should still vote eventually... For a reason... but vote. We can not afford lurkers (active or not) or inactivity...
Mastin wrote:
Meaning only those who have played with hasdgfas could've suggested the kill, hence, narrows down our suspects. It most likely would be an experienced player, like BM.With this having no power roles the basic idea is going to be a lobotomization from the scum.
Hence, BM is scum.
And, no, we're not waiting 'til Day Three to make sure.
So aren’t all roads point towards Battle Mage?Mastin wrote:
Because, why would hascow be killed? There has to be a reason. And that reason means that the person who killed hascow probably knew him.Besides that, why is the kill of hascow so special?
More common scum kills would be people like Sensfan, Kai, myself, maybe Alex, etc.
Not hascow.
Him. Him.Only becouse some didn't play with her and wouldn't kill becouse of that?
And, yes. They wouldn't kill hascow because of that.
Wrong, he said “believable truth”, twisting of words is scummy.GIEFF wrote:Jammer stated there are 4 scum as a factGIEFF wrote: I think the second explanation is far likelier, and hence, my vote. Unless jammer has another townie-based reason to so readily assume 4 scum.Yeah I do. In most games of 9 (newbie setups) we have a 7-2 ratio. In many mini normals we have 12 with a 9-3 ratio. From the newbie setup to the mini normal we gained 3 players, 2 town and 1 scum. Now in this game we have no powerroles and a free NK, N0 for scum. So even though we started with 16 players we really only get to play with 15. That’s a 3 person increase from mini normals. Using the same town-scum ratio we can assume an addition 2 townies and 1 scum. That 16th player is probably town to be used as slaughter ….So assuming 4 scum in this game seems most logical. I could understand only 3 scum since we have no powerroles, but 5 seems way to many.jammer wrote: Could you say what sounds like a reasenable amount, if that is incorrect.
Geeze, I don’t think he did. He used Alex’s interpretation anyways and you’re getting hung up on semantics where you misquote to begin with, but he states it as believable truth.GIEFF wrote:But the reasonableness of the assumption is just a secondary point. Where you messed up, jammer, is in revealing that you KNOW how many scum there are - you are not guessing. Scum know how many scum there are, and town don't. This is simple.
Interpret this:
Fact: There are 3 scum in this game.
Fact: There are 4 scum in this game.
Fact: There are 5 scum in this game.
He said believable, stop misquoting. I don’t see the biggest difference between ‘reasonable’ and ‘believable’.GIEFF wrote:I said it is reasonable. I did not proceed as if it was fact, as you did. I know you understand the difference.
3 does seem to be making more sense.Cephrir wrote: I don't think jammer slipped up, especially given that there probably aren't 4 scum.
@Post 45, Zach…no need to quote the whole thing, but awesome and well done.
Didn’t he state this, or others at least. The answer seems so glaringly obvious why ask such a stupid question. Didn’t you even provide the mathematics behind it suggesting 3 scum with no powerroles would be most balanced…GIEFF wrote: Can you give your reasoning as to why "3 scum tends to make a lot more sense in this type of setup?"
Well looks like post 52 answers it anyways.
QFT.Zachrulez wrote:Jammer, your scumminess drops because you went along so easily with an assertion from Alexhans that there are 4 scum, and it's becoming quite apparent that 3 scum is likely based on how the distribution of roles would have to be to get the closest to balancing this game.
It was a joke, because of your other post specifically stating not to do it. I’m sorry. Also “vote” wasn’t even bolded, that was to make it not count.Yaw wrote: Benmage's vote not counted, because I don't know who he's trying to vote for.
Seriously he could still be scum saying 4 when there may even be 2. Who knows, writing him off as town for agreeing with anothers scum numbers seems scummy.jammer wrote: @Zach, I'm surprised that makes you feel save in calling me town.
Would you have voted me if I stated that there where 3 mafia?
Oh this game is going to be fun.Battle Mage wrote:Vote: Ben
Clearly a wannabe mage.
*Stare*camn wrote: Wheras policy-lynching GIEFF for being too awesome... that might be doable...
Vote Mastin-
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Benmage Survivor
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Benmage Survivor
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Oh reh-heally.GIEFF wrote:
Look at the chronology. I twisted no words.Benmage wrote:Wrong, he said “believable truth”, twisting of words is scummy.
Jul 9, 2009 2:15 a.m. Post 27:
Jul 09, 2009 2:28 am Post 29:GIEFF wrote: jammer, how many scum do you think there are in this game? Why?
Let’s review. The first post after your question he says:jammer wrote:Scum amount according to alexhans. He said 4 and I took it as a believable truth. I think 4 would fit well with 16 players.
Jul 09, 2009 2:43 am Post 32:jammer wrote:believable truth
Now, I don’t know how you read..right to left, left to right, down up, top bottom w/e. But I read right to left top to bottom.GIEFF wrote:Jammer stated there are 4 scum as a fact, not as a guess, and without any reasoning presented. I don't know why a townie would just take a wild guess another player made as "believable truth."
Let’s review.
Where??GIEFF wrote:Jammer stated there are 4 scum as afact
Yada yada yada
Back to the beginning:GIEFF wrote: "believable truth."
Chronologically you stated he said it as Fact. He never uses the word fact. Hence you twisted words.GIEFF wrote:
Look at the chronology. I twisted no words.-
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Benmage Survivor
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Clearly mastin has said much more than those two posts. My point is in following his and others points regarding those who have a history with this first kill. The conclusion of that evidence indicates you have the most history.Battle Mage wrote: You'd like that wouldnt you? Tell me, are you just going to take everything Mastin says at face value, or are you actually intending to pretend you want to scumhunt for yourself?
I dont have any idea why you have quoted those 2 posts otherwise.
BM
Now obviously I didn’t vote you. I don’t think this is the most compelling scum find. I am much more inclined to vote for Mastin who initiated this motive, and auto-ruled himself out, because he would obviously kill someone else if he was scum.-
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Benmage Survivor
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That was just an extra extension in the quote…unnecessary my mistake. I was throwing the “stare” at you trying to policy lynch Gieff for his “awesomeness” it just made me chuckle to myself and think of school yard kids going “damn, go suck his dick or something”camn wrote: What does staring at me have to do with voting Mastin ??
Oh totally, lol.. I went off I’m sitting bored at a computer right now.GIEFF wrote:And you say I am the one getting bogged down in semantics?
Benmage wrote:Chronologically you stated he said it as Fact. He never uses the word fact. Hence you twisted words.
Not at all, it’s fine. In my chronological catch-up post I was just disagreeing with your point of view. No clarification needed.GIEFF wrote: Do you or do you not feel that jammer assumed there were four scum? Regardless of whether you want to call it truth or a fact, the point is that jammer assumed there were 4 scum, and THAT is what I found scummy - the unquestioning assumption.
I have explained why I found that scummy at the time, and I have explained why I no longer find it as scummy. If there is something you would like me to clarify, I would be happy to. But I did not misrepresent anything jammer said in order to inform my vote.-
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Benmage
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Benmage Survivor
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Benmage Survivor
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Right so here is from the bottom of page 4 actually, me chronologically catching up in this game. Sorry for the delay, was very busy RL.
It was a joke…I play this game for fun?...alexhans wrote:
Why?Benmage wrote:VoteBM
Not at all. I was saying that Zach’s post makes jammer look less scummy(not even not scummy, just “less” scummy), but that doesn’t mean we assume he’s now town. Which is what jammer pointed out, and I agreed.alexhans wrote:
Doesn't this 2 quotes contradict themselves? In the SAME post?Benmage wrote:]
QFT.Zachrulez wrote:Jammer, your scumminess drops because you went along so easily with an assertion from Alexhans that there are 4 scum, and it's becoming quite apparent that 3 scum is likely based on how the distribution of roles would have to be to get the closest to balancing this game.
Seriously he could still be scum saying 4 when there may even be 2. Who knows, writing him off as town for agreeing with anothers scum numbers seems scummy.jammer wrote: @Zach, I'm surprised that makes you feel save in calling me town.
Would you have voted me if I stated that there where 3 mafia?
Uhh, okay wow…uhm hop of his dick. The caps adds to anything? …nope… He may be scum, you may not believe anything indicates it, but I do. 3-4 votes in this large game isn’t a dreadful wagon, so chill.alexhans wrote:
OK... WTF? BENMAGE??? YOU ARE CLEARLY JUMPING ON MASTIN WAGGON... IT'S REALLY SCUMMY YES! IM FURIOUS (HENCE THE CAPS). I LIKE MASTIN. HE HELPS TOWN. HE MAY BE SCUM BUT THERE ARE NO LEADS THAT INDICATE THAT RIGHT NOW.Benmage wrote:Vote Mastin
I know it doesn’t rule him out. Thank you. He’s trying to rule himself out. I disagree and find that to be scummy. Maybe you should’ve read that before the NuTsOCaPs.alexhans wrote:
Bullshit. Mastin made a theory. It isn't foolproof. It doesn't rule him out. He provided a way to start the game.Benmage wrote:]
Now obviously I didn’t vote you. I don’t think this is the most compelling scum find. I am much more inclined to vote for Mastin who initiated this motive, and auto-ruled himself out, because he would obviously kill someone else if he was scum.
Acting the same way one does when town doesn’t clear them.alexhans wrote:
I see no reasons for voting him but atacking the first one who makes something to move the game. He is acting as he usually does and his auto-clearing doesn't seem scummy to me. Just mastin's personality. I should check a game where he is scum to have more information but from what I have now he is not scummy.Zachrulez wrote:Alexhans, why so upset about Mastin being bandwagoned?
I'm not liking a fast waggon on an active, pro town player...
We should worry about those who DONT post or post null opinions and keep discussing everything...
Nowhere near being lynch, relax.alexhans wrote:Dude... I'm not saying he is a townie... I just HATE his waggon right now when there's still players who haven't posted and I don't really get the reasons behind the Mastin votes.
He does…alexhans wrote:Pro town doesnt mean he is not mafia... look at VP Baltar, for instance. He always acts pro town. You have to look his actions very closely to see hidden motives.
QFT…although it’s much more appreciated that one-liners. Also I personally don’t like Mastin’s spam one-line quotes + one-line comments.GIEFF wrote:Long posts do not mean pro-town. I don't think Mastin has acted pro-town at all.
Also @post 107 by GIEFF I agree with his comments regarding Mastin trying to declare his “townness” and dislike it.
This contradicts itself jammer, no? You answer should be. “No, but nothing useful has come from it yet” or something along those lines. To note, I don’t think the kill should be ignored.jammer wrote:
Yes, or come with something good. You say not to disregard the kill, yet I've seen nothing usefull on that topic coming from you.alexhans wrote: You suggest we ignore the kill?
I don’t know Sensfan, so I couldn’t tell you that is death N0 in mafia 91, wasn’t random. I was in that game and this N0 focus on kills wasn’t really brought up. The only thing noted was that Empking was probably not random because people dislike playing with him.jammer wrote:
If you catched mafia using meta with the kill back then, I can follow. Till I hear you did that, I call the idea stupid.also, in addition to Mastin's following post I would tell you to look at Sensfan's death on n0 in Mafia 91. Not random.
Mastin has a very good point when he says that n0 kills are very probably not random.
Hmm…why…Battle Mage wrote:Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans
Serious vote. Serious wagon required.
Lol, but then also a good point.Battle Mage wrote:Are you and Mastin a couple irl?
Maybe if you quit whinging and listen to the points against Mastin with an open mind, you might fare better in the game.
WOW*****can we lynch Mastin yet?Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Agreed. Ironically, Alex mentions M91 as solid reason for NK speculation, noting that Sens’ N0 death wasn’t random. Except the other scum group, which I was a part of, removed everyone we played with from the player list and then randomly killed from that list N0 as to throw off townies trying to do this exact kind of speculation.
Wait...really? Then why is one of the newbie setups a 2:7??SensFan wrote: 2:10 is considered theoretically balanced, though Town has never won.
Agree.camn wrote:
You'll never get scum lynched that way.SensFan wrote: I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.
You have to convince the rest of us!
This is a joke right….and fyi I fully endorse the battle mage wagon.GIEFF wrote: OK WTF BATTLE MAGE???? YOU ARE CLEARLY STARTING A BENMAGE WAGGON.
That’s an interesting find.GIEFF wrote:
Then why are you so sure Mastin is town that you freak out when he gets 4 votes? That is inconsistent.Alex wrote:I'm not calling anyone town until I'm REALLY convinced they are town... and event then... I will still watch them closely.
I think you’re both adding a lot of fluff, but I don’t see his case on you as a strong one.alexhans wrote:
BM... you're really starting to annoy me and you're really starting to look like trying to fake a case instead of actually scumhunting.BM wrote: Trying to appear pro-town, whilst not actually saying anything.
Wow, fooled me.alexhans wrote: That's why I wont be hard set on Mastin town.
QFTalexhans wrote: Posting helps --- That's why lurking is so detrimental to town and no one should do it if they're town so scum cant hide in a lurker pool.
First this whole ‘big post’ seems like alex took some chill pills and may be trying to relax off the MASTIN is confirmed town mentality, which is an odd quick switch. Also my vote forced? What the fuck does that even mean. Are you suggesting that the 3-4 of us on Mastin all plotted to vote quickly and wagon him. No scum would ever do that. Don’t be an idiot.alexhans wrote:
I knowBM wrote: Active and great player, as he may be, it doesnt mean he is town
I wouldn't be so sure about that as I've explained before.BM wrote:, or worth keeping around.
No, BUT, I think one may always sense if a vote is forced or not. Benmage's vote, for example, sounded forced to me.BM wrote:Nor does it make people who are suspicious of him, automatically scummy.
Alright need to get some food. Currently caught up to post 127.
Top of page 6.-
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Benmage Survivor
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Still need to catchup, just skimming a bit...
Isn't there a newbie 2:7 setup with no powerroles as one of the 4 options..VP Baltar wrote:
I think he was refering to a 2:10 setup without powerroles.Benmage wrote:Wait...really? Then why is one of the newbie setups a 2:7??
I was reading you as being more critical of being alex. Was I wrong about this?Benmage wrote:I fully endorse the battle mage wagon.
The battle mage wagon statement was an obvious joke...sometimes sarcasm is difficult to portray through words.-
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Okay, back to my chronological catchup from post 127 and onward.
Nice point.GIEFF wrote:I have a question for you, alex. You attacked Benmage for jumping on the Mastin wagon, without a good reason, right? Yet at that time (Post 94), Benmage had already given a reason for his vote, in Post 90. But I myself didn't give any explanation whatsoever about my Mastin vote until Post 107. You now claim that you think the Mastin wagon has little reasoning behind it, but why did you focus on attacking Benmage (who had given reasoning for his vote at the time), and yet ignore me (who had not)?
Too much NK speculation in my opinion distracts. Just like to much game setup speculation distracts. But I like to take a personal note of both and value a little commentary.jammer wrote:1) NK-speculation distracts
Agree.alexhans wrote:
jammer... there's scum in this game that KNOW the actual motives behind the kill... listening to speculations COULD help us at some point. There's always the chance of a slip or a scummy statement.jammer wrote:Can we stop now about the discussion with meta N0 kills?
You talked about how it isn't useless. But don't who the suspects would be according to it.
This is an interesting point that I sort of agree with. Alex could be scum, but if he wanted to push Mastin’s townness for wifom later purposes, he kind of overreacted with it. Something I’d doubt a scum would commit so heavily to. However if he is scum, and acted this way, kudos to him.Battle Mage wrote:
Mastin's behaviour was vaguely scummy, but given how much he posts, and his general meta, not really lynch-worthy. Alex's reaction to him was far scummier, and doesnt make sense with them as scumbuddies. Taking the assumption Alex is scum (which is the assumption i am making if i want him lynched), Mastin is almost certainly town. Of course, if Alex turns out to be town, this condition is no longer met, and Mastin can be looked at again.GIEFF wrote: Independent of your feelings about alex, do YOU think Mastin is town, Battle Mage? Your previous posts seem to indicate otherwise, yet you claim alex KNOWS Mastin is town.
At the very least… that seems quick and unnecessary.Battle Mage wrote: At the very least, we want an Alex claim here.
Ah...hmm. Could be Mason, could be something else. Who knows, a cop claim now is worthless. Mastin isn’t in danger of being lynched. Plus I’d rather see a cop come out when they can at the very least suicide a scum.Battle Mage wrote: Again, you consistently assume he is town. If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.
Ehh, I was more annoyed at Gieff’s endless tangent here.Battle Mage wrote:
Because it's totally and utterly, IRRELEVANT. Commenting on the number of scum we might have on Day 1, is the most pointless exercise i can imagine. Maybe look at it lately, and by all means, err on the side of caution, but your attempts to bully everyone into believing there are 4 scum, when there is no way in hell you could know that as town, have not gone unnoticed by me. What annoys me is, i cant even see a logical reason to make that argument as scum, unless you are just deliberately out to mislead at every turn, or you wanna get your chips in quick, so you can later cry "I told ya so!"Alex wrote: I'm usually told that setup-speculation is bad, but here we are, wondering how many scum there is and no one has said anything there was anything wrong about it.
This is the most successful point I’ve seen you raise against alex, through all the mass of fluff and bantering.Battle Mage wrote:
Lmfao.Alexhans FIRST post wrote:I've played with Hascow before and he was not a very active scum player... at least in that game. Maybe it was because the town had 80 % of lynchable material (Empking, Zwets, Dejkha, Wall-e and Hewitt). Anyway... If I had to kill... knowing there were no protections whatsoever... I would've killed... sensfan? Mastin?someone random that I don't know?Probably I wouldn't have had a voice in a scumteam....Confirm Vote: Alex
You cant seriously try and tell me that you believe this Mastin bullcrap is consistent with your own confession-that you might have killed someone random who you dont know? xD
Lol…ya noted.Battle Mage wrote: When i disagree with you, just back down, and we'll get on fine. *hugs*
Ooo another nice point.Battle Mage wrote: Ok. In terms of votes, what Mastin achieved, instead of a random selection of reasonless votes, was a wagon on himself. Now, if you dont think that wagon was legit, then effectively, we are no better off than we would have been with the random stage. If you believe Mastin has destroyed the RVS, then you are, by definition, acknowledging that the wagon on Mastin is valuable, and most probably, that he is scum.
Oh ya duh..confusing games I’m in. So than the point of Alex Knowing Mastin as town could be because he’s scum.VP Baltar wrote:
First, this is a mountainous set up. There are only goons and vanilla. Second, if we did have powerroles, this is a horrible idea and is blatantly you rolefishing.Battlemage wrote:If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.
I thought the rvs was over…camn wrote:re-Vote : Gieff
For trying to shove a crapcase down my throat just cuz I like to be nice.
And stop calling me 'abrasive'!
I am sweet as a summer day!
But..we’re all VT’s in the game.jammer wrote:
It is scummy becouse mafia likes to know PR's for obvious reasons.Battle Mage wrote:Let's talk scenarios here. Say this game wasn't mountainous, and i was asking for a roleclaim. How is that scummy play? In fact, the optimal play would be to subtly hint at him being a cop, and see if he breadcrumbs back. I've done that before, quite recently, in a game that is still ongoing, but might be finished soon.
Agree.SensFan wrote:The pressure on BM is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.
It had a >0% chance of helping the Town, by outing a Scum
It had a 0% chance of hurting the Town
How the fuck can you call that scummy?
I didn’t read it because of the size.alexhans wrote:Ok... I sized this for emphasis...
Post 174…That was painfully filled with fluff. Disclaimer of fluff at top next time please.
Most of his argument seemed like bantering nitpicky fluff. There were a few decent points. I think he was suggesting one point of view wherein Alex could be scum. If that was the case in this specific point of view Mastin would almost certaintly be town. He continues to express that in this perspective if Alex flips town, all assumptions of Mastin would be dropped and we’d return to our previous positions on Mastin before analyzing this Alex point of view. (Which were scummy opinions of Mastin)GIEFF wrote: So, to sum up, you claim that your case makes you SO sure that alex is scum that you are willing to make a complete 180 on Mastin, and say that he is town, with a LOT of confidence. Yet as I think I have shown here, many of the points you brought up are not scummy - they are just observations. And as I also think I have shown here, youLIEDwhen you said your vote for Mastin was random, to allow yourself to perform the mental gymnastics required to force this case on alex.
Interesting.Kairyuu wrote: 1. Umm, first of all, the fact that a high priority player wasn't killed increases the likelyhood that some or all of the priority kills are actually the scum.
Huzzah, Kairyuu is growing on me. And I’m going to force myself to (grow on him too?) wow that’s sounds odd.Kairyuu wrote: Benmage is being Benmage
To note, I’m skimming most of this camn gieff banter. I thought it initiated as a semi-joke vote from camn with a weak previous game analysis by gieff, but is being dragged and dragged and dragged on in my opinion a relatively null case.
This is true, I think he’ll be back the 20th.VP Baltar wrote:
Just for reference, I think Spyrex is travelling right now so I would guess that his posting would be sporadic until he gets back.GIEFF wrote:Spyrex has 2 posts, and no votes or FOSs.
Running to lunch at post 200 top of page 9, will finish catchup real soon.-
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Yeahhhh maybe.camn wrote: town vs. town on them.
Agree.Battle Mage wrote: The thing is, if you dont think Alex's panicked defence of Mastin was scummy, then i wouldnt expect you to agree with the case on him, because that is pretty much the cornerstone of it.
Useless.SensFan wrote:Alex, jammer, GIEFF.
There's a Scum in that group.
They’re littered with nothingness.Zachrulez wrote:Battle Mage, why did you unvote Alex?
I'm going crazy trying to read your text walls of reasoning for voting him in he first place.
Has Kai passed post 93?alexhans wrote:#189: So Kai? Not one suspicion?
Seriously…I hate spelling out the obvious. If you’re known for acting a certain way when being town, isn’t it logical that when you are finally scum to act the way you’re known for acting when town…zzzzalexhans wrote:
??? explain...Benmage wrote:Acting the same way one does when town doesn’t clear them.
c) I don’t like his shoesalexhans wrote:motives for a mastin vote from Benmage:
a) Mastin may be scum and may be acting ilogically
b) He's going after Battle Mage.
c) ...
d) there's not even a c) man... do you expect a d)?
d) watermelon
zzzzmorenothingnesswastingmytimereading
No, that might be an overall theme of his posts but there are certain aspects as to why he thinks you could be scum. I merely picked up and interpreted one I found intriguing.alexhans wrote:BM acted "certain" that I was scum in all of his posts...
Ding ding ding, they’re a total distraction to this game. Is anyone really reading every line/comment.jammer wrote:@alexhans,
I'm thinking the wall-post war gets more personal then actual bringin points forward.
Is BM your main suspect?
My thoughts exactly.VP Baltar wrote:
I think his "NuTsOcApS", as benmage put it, was overboard and weird, boardering on being scummy.jammer wrote:@VP, DDD, Cephrir What do you think about Alex defending Mastin?
Well caught up and to surmise I still find Mastin most scummy. His new mia-ness is even more peculiar.
Vote Mastin-
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What was the reasoning behind this? What do you feel about Mastin?Kmd4390 wrote:Vote Cephrir
W.t.f? Why race this push? What will the claim accomplish? Or what are you looking to gain from it?GIEFF wrote:Kmd - if you are vanilla town, claim NOW.
Anybody against a kmd claim, please speak up now.
Lol wtf just happened…this was the weirdest bunch of events. We are all vanilla, except for scum…Everyone will claim VT…*sigh*Kmd4390 wrote:Considering 3 people are asking, yes, I'm vanilla.Kairyuu wrote:Mmk. You've passed the test.
Apparently you didn't notice, but this is a Mountainous setup. If you had claimed a power role you would be confirmed scum. That you didn't means that you were either not willing to risk a counterclaim, or that you are actually town.GIEFF wrote:OK thanks kmd - that was a "trap" (of Battle Mage's devising). This is a mountainous setup, so any non-vanilla claim is an insta-lynch. I would have felt dirty if it worked.
Thanks for the backup Kai and camn.
Oh ya we’ll be catching scum real quick with these set-ups.
Lol that’s fine and all. But listing 4 people and saying “one of these 4 is scum” is so arbitrary. I guarantee I could run a randomizer on the people in this game, totally indiscriminate, pull out four people and have just as much confidence in claiming “one of these 4 is scum”.SensFan wrote:
Mastin, alex, jammer, GIEFF.Kmd4390 wrote:Hi. Who is scum?
There's at least one, if not two or all three, in there.
The Mastin wagon appears to be biggest, soUnvote, Vote: Mastin.
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All you people asking me to write novels about why I suspect who I do, its not going to happen. This is how I play, and I'm right a whole lot more often than I was when I wrote novels.
Besides, I think I've made it fairly obvious why I suspect all 4 of the above. If you really have no idea, read the thread. If you still have no idea, and you've done what you feel is enough looking into the matter on your own, then you can ask me.
Read the thread, process…SensFan wrote:Did you follow the process outlined above?
No, he’s going with his “gut” cause that’s how he plays!VP Baltar wrote:I've read your posts. They are largely opportunistic, which is the issue. If you fail to mention Mastin in any way other than your vote post based on others' reasoning, you're just being a sheep.
(stopping at post 276, need to read rest of page 12…this game isn’t flying, but has a lot of wall posts)-
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Truealexhans wrote:
YET. Unlike you, you never jumped on lurkers like broomhead and don't vote for them now.camn wrote:I support ANY lurkerlynch.
That’s a weakass vote. Sounds like a policy-like vote.alexhans wrote:Using other people's arguments to suspect people...
Being so unhelpful you're not a good asset to town. You could hide forever behind this crappy attitude. Not willing to let that happen.
Vote SensFan
This is useless to a person who chooses not. Although I do agree with you that it is frustrating and I’m all for policy lynching useless players… It is like asking Zwet to post more than one-line, or do anything good for that matter..Null. With Sensfan he hopefully reads both sides of an argument, and agrees with a position he finds strongest in finding scum. I don’t have a history with him so I couldn’t tell you if he at least votes well or not.GIEFF wrote: And Sensfan, I don't care how amazing you think you are. What you are doing is completely useless to the town, and completely scummy. You KNOW this, so what you are doing is pretty much just trolling. You are perfectly capable of telling your reasons, but you refuse to, because you want to keep your image.
Please play the game.VP Baltar wrote: 'hop off Mastin's dick'.
I like that I have inspired some interesting articulation.GIEFF wrote: NutSoCaps
Yes his self-aggrandizement was quite scummy.alexhans wrote: The one good point about him may be that he seemed to be trying to autoclear himself.
This is actually a nice post/point of view. I hope the “why vote” isn’t cause of the “gut”.SensFan wrote: I'm not going to add even more noise to this thread by making ridiculously long cases, we have enough of that already. Instead, I'll make sure I'm on record as to who and when I suspect people, and why I suspect them. That way, there's a clear record of my suspicions, and a track record of my votes and such.
In future days, when there is less noise, it will be more appropriate for everyone who is alive to be making large cases.
I agree Day One can be brutal, and more often than note a townie gets lynched. That is why we policy lynch/lurker lynch day one huzzah!camn wrote: The only time I can remember ever getting scum Day 1 is on lurkerlynches... This is my least favorite part of every game.
I’m confused. Are you agreeing with me? Because I’m the one who said everyone will just claim VT and the rush rush rush was foolish. I saw the trap…but honestly..lolalexhans wrote:
Oh God! You've got to be kidding me...Benmage wrote: W.t.f? Why race this push? What will the claim accomplish? Or what are you looking to gain from it?
THIS GAME IS VANILLA AND SCUM ONLY! LETS STOP MAKING BULL POSTS AROUND IT. WE ALL KNOW THE SETUP
That part was a sarcastic mockery if you didn’t get it. I obviously don’t think going with ones gut is a sufficient case and I’ve never run into a simply QFT/QFT/QFT case…but I’m sure in that scenario I’d want a bit more elaboration.alexhans wrote:
Are you confortable with letting people just say gut or QFT for a case?Benmage wrote: No, he’s going with his “gut” cause that’s how he plays!
QFTZachrulez wrote:And you're not investigating anyone at all Alex, you're suspecting people for being suspicious of Mastin for perfectly valid reasons, and spending more energy defending him than would be considered normal for a player who isn't supposed to know anything more than their own alignment.
Agree, Mastins excuse is a weak one imo.Zachrulez wrote:Though given what I know about your feelings on lurking, I do find it VERY strange that you are defending Mastin right now.
No WAY KMD!! You have to assume I’m scum….am I growing on you??Kmd4390 wrote: So, these past few pages give me something to work with. I now know that I DON'T like alex or GIEFF. I DO like Sens, Camn, and Benmage.
It was also the way he speculated it. Disregarding himself.alexhans wrote:Get it out of your system... I'm not defending Mastin... (Not entirely, at least ) I'm still in awe about the way in wich his waggon formed.... Night Speculation is not wrong IMO but no one jumped at me for saying it.-
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So looking at the game there are some people who aren’t nearly as vocal as others. Namely Cephrir and DDD.
I’d like to hear more from Cephrir as he has four posts all game. The first and second ones, those with some substance aren’t that bad. Overrall a null tell on him leaning town/scum cause there isn’t enough information. I do like this post:
He was being serious. Him trying to rule himself out is indeed, suspicious.Cephrir wrote:
Now I'm not sure whether this was entirely serious or not, but if it was... yeah. Incidentally, it's also suspicious if it was entirely serious.Mastin wrote:Has wouldn't be my choice with players I know; you can auto-clear me from picking the kill, as I would definitely try to lead as mafia and would have to be overridden by someone who I respect highly as a player and recognize the skill of to not nk another pro-town player.
DDD has a few more posts on the table than Cephrir, nothing to substantial. Again I think he posts generally well opinionated posts but isn’t active enough or strong enough to get a read-up him being town or scum.
I do like that he has been consistent:
Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:51 pmDebonair Danny DiPietro wrote: I'd also be comfortable voting Mastin for pushing mediocre theories early and claiming they cleared him and then going MIA as well.
Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:24 pm
Basically I want more from these fellahs, less from others. A post by Battle wannabemage seems overdue and well Mastin zzZzzZDebonair Danny DiPietro wrote: I noticed that as well, if nothing else it establishes that NK speculation is something scum-Mastin is willing to use to push his agenda. Couple that with VPB's meta-find and I'm ready to push Mastin above Cephrir on my scum list.
Unvote; Vote: Mastin-
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I'm nowhere near caughtup in this game. I swear everytime I goto bed and come back there is atleast 2+ pages added on.
I'm dissapoint in Camn...he was really going places...siiiiiikkeeecamn wrote:AndUNVOTE
Fielding this torrent of nonsense has totally derailed my plans with Benmage. I'll come back to him someday. Hopefully.-
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She just seems like a poor player to me.GIEFF wrote:I don't know why both Sensfan and BM claim they see nothing scummy about camn.
- She has contributed little to no scumhunting.
- She has shown she is more concerned about how she is viewed by the town than about catching scum.
- She strongly over-reacted to my investigation of her meta, and OMGUS-voted me. Once again, this was NOT about scumhunting, but about protecting how she is viewed by the town, as evidenced by how weakly she pursued it.
I don’t think this is a valid statement. “Oh I’m an honorable player” “I don’t lie” etc etc..fluff we can’t believe, sorry but this is exactly what I’d expect scum to say.Mastin wrote:
And I never lie about matters such as that, even as scum.Zach wrote:These posts establish an attempt by Mastin to both clear himself based on the nightkill and gather scum suspects based on the nightkill.
I'm an honorable player.
The proof is in my recent anti-town games.
I'd *never* Night-kill a person like Hascow with *far* better targets around.
Theway is if I was overrided by a player that I hold huge respect for. I gave, in my list before, who those people are.*only* possible
And even then, it's doubtful that I'd allow them to.
Also, gathering suspects based off of the unusual night-kill--->Hugely pro-town. At that stage in the game, it is *definitely* the best possible way to find scum. Later on, scum tells become important, sure.
This seems genius.Kmd4390 wrote: I know if I was scum, Camn wouldn't be living past today.
Ooo ooo he did that to me too.GIEFF wrote:
Which means your OMGUS-vote of me is yet another example of you behaving in a way you think will make you seem to be town rather than behaving in a way that is likely to catch scum.camn wrote:@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
QFTGIEFF wrote:You are trying to act like you think townies act, instead of trying to catch scum.
Didn’t you just go on a tangent of you two vengefully killing eachother… O.o …Kmd4390 wrote:(That's the reasonjoined this game. )I
Anyone else willing to give the lady what she wants?camn wrote: And PLEASE LYNCH ME!!!!!
PLEASE!
DO IT NOW!!!
I want to die right now just so the world will see how flawed your so-called "scumhunting" is.
Lol.SensFan wrote:
*You accuse her of OMGUSing youGIEFF wrote:Sensfan, can you make your point in non-analogy form? That makes no sense to me.
*She denies OMGUSing you
*You reply "Well, let's not get hung up on our respective definitions of OMGUS"
I can’t read this Gieff vs Camn/KmD conflict anymore. It rivals BM vs Alex in fluff/uselessness/and has totally derailed any direction for the day. It also makes catching up in this game less favorable than slamming ones head in to the wall. Regardless I still think a Mastin lynch is best thus far. I really wish he wasn’t only on page 3…*sigh*-
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Maybe you just don't understand all the context of an "omgus" vote. it doesn't always literally mean, oh my god you suck…You mention me what…once before in the text in a null reference and than drop a post which only contains a vote. No prior/lead-up explanation. Just a vote. Period. End of story. That in my book is a quintessential example of an “omgus” vote.-
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A vote with no backing is called what?GIEFF wrote: That is NOT what an OMGUS vote is. An OMGUS vote is a vote for somebody who has been attacking you. It's not a big deal - it is only scummy insofar as voting people for reasons OTHER than trying to catch scum can be scummy, and that it can serve as a proxy for more substantial scumhunting.
Indeed, this is going nowhere. Just adding fluff.GIEFF wrote:I agree, camn - our massive exchanges are very bad for the town, and a lot is falling through the cracks, and the pages and pages provide a convenient excuse for lurkers to remain lurking.
Don’t worry Camn, ask KmD or Kairyuu, first we fight. Than it gets tiresome, we become best friends, and KmD realizes I am always town.camn wrote:
I know, right!?Kmd4390 wrote:
Ouch!Benmage wrote:If you gave initial context it wouldn't have been an omgus-vote/seemed scummy/made you look like a bad player. I don't know if the wiki offers a handbook or something, but I'd suggest playing some more newbie games, they may be more fitting.
It seemed like a ton of back and forth, in which I couldn’t even decipher the main points. Then you hopped into the madness. If you want to bullet it for me so I can grasp the main points. All I understood was what Senfans bulleted.Kmd4390 wrote:
How is it distracting? I think it has added a lot to the game.Benmage wrote: I can’t read this Gieff vs Camn/KmD conflict anymore. It rivals BM vs Alex in fluff/uselessness/and has totally derailed any direction for the day. It also makes catching up in this game less favorable than slamming ones head in to the wall. Regardless I still think a Mastin lynch is best thus far. I really wish he wasn’t only on page 3…*sigh*-
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String him up. Are most of going to be convinced with whatever he offers to change our votes?? Wasting time.SensFan wrote:Since 2:50 AM EST this morning, Mastin has 2 posts in a specific MD thread. Those posts have a total of 2778 words and 13,455 characters (excluding spaces).
So much for him being too short on time to post in this game...-
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There are multiple reasons. They include his self-removing himself from his own NK speculation. I don’t remember if this was before or after, but I believe someone mentioned he NK speculated before as an opener as scum.
Mainly, I don’t like Mastin’s play.
I’m town, take your emotions elsewhere.camn wrote: So there you have it.
The scum are in, according to my study...:
Zachrulez
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Mastin
Benmage-
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She said she's going to "ride my ass"VP Baltar wrote:
What was emotional about her comments? This just looks like a scummy off-hand comment to discredit potential points against you.benmage wrote:I’m town, take your emotions elsewhere.
Didn't comment on me...yet put me in her top scum suspects. It's only because we were bantering.-
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And here I thought you were starting to get me.Kmd4390 wrote:
You really think that based on my statement, one of us will die and the other will definitely be lynched based on it tomorrow? I don't see it happening.Benmage wrote:
Woah, let's not jump the gun.Kmd4390 wrote: Nobody is going to seriously lynch Camn or myself if the other turns up dead. Not unless there is more of a case.-
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I had fallen behind with this game and was trying to catchup if I failed to mention this, or make clear my reasoning, then that was a rushed mistake on my part.camn wrote:
Well.. why didn't you state those reasons at the time of your vote, then?Benmage wrote:Yes, the self-aggrandizement + Mastin's overall play was the reason for my vote.
And would you characterize this behavior of YOURS as 'OMGUS'???-
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Yes, you must be reading wrong. The post clearly hints at it, despite myself being rushed. Also there is a post, what 4 minutes after that reiterates the cause.camn wrote:(camn intentionally ignoring Geiff)
There is no reason to say "if"..Benmage wrote:
I had fallen behind with this game and was trying to catchup if I failed to mention this, or make clear my reasoning, then that was a rushed mistake on my part.camn wrote:
Well.. why didn't you state those reasons at the time of your vote, then?Benmage wrote:Yes, the self-aggrandizement + Mastin's overall play was the reason for my vote.
And would you characterize this behavior of YOURS as 'OMGUS'???
I attest that you did, in post 82, Vote Mastin with no reason given whatsoever. Do you deny it?
I only press the point because you say "if"... like maybe I am reading wrong.
Why are you strung up on the word "if". I think it fits perfectly with what occurred and with what I was trying to illustrate. Your nitpickyness is going nowhere.-
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Now, WIFOM all you want or call shitty play or whatever - BM's move with "who is the cop"in this setupreeks town.[/quote]
Couldn’t disagree more. If that is what passes as a good trap…well damn.
Wonderful. How about a why?SpyreX wrote: Additionally, I'm taking off the the tinfoil regarding Mastin for now.
Minus me it’s a possibility. Both have illustrated scummyness at different times. However I again refer to randomly selecting people, calling “of these peope” there is scum, and probably being correct. I.E. this is meaningless.SpyreX wrote: So, of: (Alex, Benmage, GIEFF) there is a scum.
The vote on Cephrir is a possibility. Sensfan, do some more sexy and tell us if Ceph is active elsewhere.-
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Wow failed at quoting.. but the first part of my last post is a Spryex quote up to "If that is what passes as a good trap...well damn" That was me.
Couldn’t disagree more. If that is what passes as a good trap…well damn.SpyreX wrote: Now, WIFOM all you want or call shitty play or whatever - BM's move with "who is the cop"in this setupreeks town.
Like this ^^-
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@Gieff. That analysis proves no one save DDD and Ceph are lurking or need to be more active.
Camn. I’ve answered you already. Re-read what I’ve recently said. But here is some more info if it helps. This is getting so tiresome so I hope it ends here.
The hinting aspect to the vote:
If I had voted right after this statement would have I avoided all this useless spew from camn?Benmage wrote:
It is an interesting attempt Mastin could be employing here as scum. Especially as he so justly declared how he would have acted. But if he really was scum, wouldn’t acting the way one would expect you to act be illogical while acting in contrast to the predictable action be most rational.SpyreX wrote: However, the tinfoil says that Mastin as scum could go the brazen I wouldn't do this as scum because it would be awesome.
From a post 1:30 hours following post 82, further explaining my vote.Benmage wrote: I am much more inclined to vote for Mastin who initiated this motive, and auto-ruled himself out, because he would obviously kill someone else if he was scum.
This is incorrect. As aforementioned. Besides I’ve already stated if I failed to properly mention it, it was an error due to catching up.camn wrote: Because before your vote, the only thing you said in reference to Mastin was:
Which hardly is any kind of accusation or 'context', wouldn't you agree?Benmage wrote:So aren’t all roads point towards Battle Mage?
In fact, maybe I am the crazy one... @GIEFF (or anyone).. what do you think about this?
Am I nuts, or is Benmage a giant hypocrite?
Am I delusional, or did Benmage HIMSELF do the very thing that HE calls "an omgus-vote/seemed scummy/made you look like a bad player"?
I even gave him the chance to say it was RVS.. but he says no.
Yet I didn’t deter from the vote. And continued to back it. You voted for me and never commented on it. I’m done with you being a nuisance bring something constructive to the table, and I may respond to you again.-
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I am not saying the list was random. I am saying I could make just as an effective list, doing it randomly.SpyreX wrote:Its not that it was a "good trap" - its the motivation for it.
The only outcome(s) possible were: catching a retarded scum or nothing.
There is no scum machinations behind it nor, with the way he did it, an overall "ohh shit thats so town move".
Its genuine in what it is.
And if you think my list is random well that just confirms your place on it. The amount of spew (which you have been a part of) is not an accident - especially in a mountainous game.
"Catching a retard scum" exactly...not a likely scenario. Yet he's been gaining some "townpoints" for it for certain people, which I don't like.-
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What’s that mean?alexhans wrote: Benmage has word sickness?
BLasphemy!! I did not write this!! It was the other BM!alexhans wrote:
Why not? because of my "fan club", as you said?Benmage wrote: i wasnt stupid enough to think that i could get Alex lynched today
Yeah…I don’t remember this obv-town statement…and as much as I’d love to knock out the other mage and claim superiority, I do think he’s town.alexhans wrote:
Didn't you started voting me when I defended mastin? Since when Camn and Benmage feel you're obv town? Are they your fans? XDBM wrote:So, me, and 3 people who feel i am obvtown? Bit predictable. lol
Didn’t she say something about not having much of a direction day one or success in day one scum hunting...forget it exactly.alexhans wrote: Camn hasn't scumhunted but tried to look town.
This “game-stall” on Mastin really sucks. He’s posting elsewhere…wouldn’t someone whose a lead lynch candidate think that game of relative importance. He’s purposely lurking…string him up already and let’s move on.-
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Eh, overall game play from just reading your posts. Nothing too specific.Battle Mage wrote: Also, why do you feel i am town?
Clearly not all of your votes.camn wrote: My votes had reasons, which I statedboth at the time of the votes, and later on.
You will blow our truce if you continue to post factually incorrect information about me.
How, where, what..??camn wrote:jammer's last post is so town it makes my eyes bleed.
Oh most definitely. Because you’ve put forth the “one of these is scum” statements as did SenFan. My conclusion is I could randomly select people and be just as accurate as you two.SpyreX wrote: ... so you are saying that a random list has the same value as what I see as being the classic scum-breakpoint for this game the way it is going? AWESOME.
--Thanks for answering the mastin-question.-
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Kmd4390 wrote: *lazy votes-where?
*suspecting people without giving reasons-where?camn wrote:Vote: VP BALTHAR
Not a random vote.
Segways into:camn wrote:I played a game with GIEFF once.
We were scum together.
He was brilliant as scum.
We should probably lynch him before endgame... regardless of anything that may happen between then and now.
(how is THAT for saying something scummy?!!?)camn wrote:in fact...
unvote
Vote :GIEFF
Look at me .. 3rd vote on the wagon!
oops.. nope. 2nd vote. Darn.camn wrote:UNVOTE
vote: Benmagecamn wrote:AndUNVOTE
Fielding this torrent of nonsense has totally derailed my plans with Benmage. I'll come back to him someday. Hopefully.
Worst voter this game?camn wrote:Well, show me how it's done, then, BIG GUY!
I will proxy my vote to you for the rest of the day. Sonce you are so awesome, your vote SHOULD count for double, right?!
Lets see how EPIC of a player you really are!
VOTE: MASTIN-
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Yes I was responding to KmD. The votes are lazy in that they often don’t initially give reasoning. When/if they do, the reasoning in my opinion is rather weak.camn wrote:Ah. Maybe I see you are responding to KMD?
If you look deeper, you will find I did indeed give reasons for each of my votes.... eventually.
Saying not a random vote when voting VP, is meaningless.
Your first vote on Gieff, is because he was too good as scum in a previous game….seriously…
You do “confirm” the vote on Gieff later. Which is good, but in my opinion that confirmation vote had weak reasoning in itself, but I left that out because it didn’t really relate to what I was pointing out for KmD.
You than vote for me for Zero (stated) reason. You unvote after a considerable amount of time without bothering to comment on the vote to begin with.
Now your vote has sat on Mastin, for what purpose…To please me??...geeze
Seems like a pretty poor/lazy voting scheme. And I clearly am not alone in this feeling as Gieff initially pointed it out.
Your pow-wow with KmD is null. You two agreeing on points holds no weight.-
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Scheme wasn't the best word I suppose. Go with pattern or history.camn wrote:@BENMAGE.
How many games have you played where the first vote was not a random or jokevote?
If I was indeed 'lazy' I could easily have jokevoted ANYONE.. but instead I took the time to take a stand.
You make so little sense it is incredible.
Also.. I intentionally withheld my reasoning, for certain effect.
How is this lazy?
And what does is a "poor voting scheme"? What does that even mean?
Please show me..... I learn at the feet of the master.
The first vote would've been a fine RVS, but you declared that it wasn't random. You didn't make a stand, because you didn't put any thought or effort into it. You only stated it wasn't random...meaningless. Lazy in the sense of not explaining your position, not suggesting lazy in the sense of putting forth a meaningful vote(although in my opinion is was a weakass "meaningful" vote). As you would continue to do.
Intentionally withholding the information is such a cop-out. You let your vote sit on me with no response for a while. Just as you are doing with Mastin. Yet you go into these crazy side tangents.-
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No, because it wasn't related to the question at hand. Wherein I was merely illustrating a history of examples of lazy/poor votes or whatever it was that gieff stated.Kmd4390 wrote:
Are you saying you intentionally left it out to prove your point?Benmage wrote:You do “confirm” the vote on Gieff later. Which is good, but in my opinion that confirmation vote had weak reasoning in itself, but I left that out because it didn’t really relate to what I was pointing out for KmD.-
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You mean future backing?Kmd4390 wrote: But you were aware of later backing which makes the vote you quoted less lazy/poor.
Regardless it is one of several examples. In addition I was giving her the benefit of the doubt in that case. Because Although she returns to it, and "re-affirms her vote" giving a reason.. The reason is so shitty that you could add 'crap-cases' to the list of lazy/poor votes.-
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Oh that’s what I thought…its humerous noone seems to care about this.camn wrote: I HAVE GIVEN YOU MY VOTE FOR THE DAY.
I will vote anyone you vote.
You are a Power Role.
A Double-voter.
Hurry up and find scum gogogogogo!!!
Show me how it is done!!
But let’s see how it works. Now follow my scum-hunting lead. UnvoteVote Camn.
Seriously..you’ve asked me way more questions. The last tangent was a statement to KmD.camn wrote: he keeps asking me dumb questions.. !
Nope. I’m willing to her hang.alexhans wrote: ----------------------------
Benmage
So, are you fine with Camn not scumhunting?
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Yeah dude, post more.alexhans wrote: ----------------------------
DDD: I have a good opinion on your analysys from our game so I'm still expecting something other than your Mastin vote... Imagine if you get killed... We would lose your valuable input...
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I grinned at this one.camn wrote: And since arguing with him is like trying to order chinese takeout with the sauce on the side.-
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Benmage Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13727
- Joined: December 20, 2008
I don’t see a reason to switch my vote from a scum. So you guys might as well hop on this wagon.GIEFF wrote:I'm tempted to unvote camn, as she just nailed a mafia with her vote for camn. But I won't, just in case camn is right about camn being mafia (I see no reason not to trust her).
Wow, that is so disappointing.Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:
The above applies torequesting my input. Ask direct questions, get direct answers; otherwise I'll continue as I have been.everyone
Welcome to this week.SpyreX wrote: I AM going to do a review of Mastin as a function of activity on the site in actual games and if he's actively avoiding this one I'll throw my vote that way.-
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Benmage Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13727
- Joined: December 20, 2008
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Benmage Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13727
- Joined: December 20, 2008
What makes you think she’s sooo town??SensFan wrote: If camn is lynched today, I will consider everyone off the wagon to be confirmed for the rest of the game, since there's no way that many Town will have voted her.
It’s hard to get a read from your limited contribution. But this little tidbit makes me think you may just be scum.camn wrote:
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