Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[GIEFF]

jammer isn't voting for anybody, either. And jammer's votes seem more based on OMGUS than on scummy behavior, e.g. voting me after I pressured him over assuming 4 scum, or voting Benmage after Benmage said the VP NK implicated jammer.

@gieff Also, spyrex posts just seemed town to me? Could you just make a case on spyrex if you suspect him?

No. This isn't about me thinking spyrex is scum, this is about you thinking he is town.

You've said hardly anything about spyrex all game. You threw a quick, weird, vote on him for his camn vote, and have said basically nothing else. You don't have a null read, you have a town read. So please explain what exactly about spyrex's posts strike you as town.

This slipped through the cracks, jammer. Please respond.

@Camn, what do you think about Gieff's 'cases' on you?
Do you think he is mafia trying to mislynch you or overeager town?

This looked scummy to me when jammer posted it, as he was assuming camn was town. Now that we know camn is town, it looks even scummier. Many of those who thought camn was town thought so for meta reasons. But jammer had no meta reasons at all.

jammer - why did you have a town-read on camn? And why do you have a town-read on spyrex?

Also, why do you have a scum-read on alex?

I didn't like your reponse to this, either. Saying "camn looked town to me" isn't enough. Others used meta to make that determination, but you did not. So what DID you use?

[GIEFF]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 30#1704030

Hmm....

For this game, you know there to be four Mafia goons and eight vanilla townies.

4 scum in just a 12 player game with an additional restriction on the town.


If StrangerCoug can make a really unbalanced mountainous open setup, maybe we shouldn't be so confident that this closed setup adheres to theoretical balance.


What do you think, jammer and Sens?

[GIEFF]

Oh OK, good... I re-read that post like three times thinking I must have been missing something. Looks like I was.

[GIEFF]

I'm trying, Vi. I'm trying. I will try harder for you.

[GIEFF]

The logic was faulty. Take that up with BM, not with me, Sens.

[GIEFF]

err, Spyrex.

[GIEFF]

I just had a dream that Zach, alex, and Spyrex were scum.

-------

@Battle Mage:

1. You think the people attacking you are town.
   
2. You want a lynch to happen soon.
   
3. So you may as well keep your vote on me, although I have no other votes, and am one of the people attacking you. And although the REASON you voted me in the first place was because I was attacking you, without voting you.

I don't get it. Wildly inconsistent here.



You've also said to me:

Ftr, you defending me at this point, with such good research, read as a towntell. And i was considering unvoting. But, as it was apparently unintentional, my vote can stand.

Which directly conflicts with your statement that those defending you are scum.

This game has changed me.

I don't think it's this GAME that is causing you to change your mind so often, I think it's your alignment.

[GIEFF]

Well, now that I think about the dream, I think Spyrex actually bussed you, Battle Mage, and you flipped scum. But then Spyrex night-killed himself, and we insta-lynched Zach or Alex. So it was actually Spyrex, Battle Mage, and I think Zach, although it could have been Alex.

In any case, I obviously need to post in this thread more than twice a day or else it will carry over into my dreams. That can't be healthy.



I think the game is progressing very well, and the discussion is very productive. No need to rush, especially with the recent lack of wall-posts.

[GIEFF]

Well, it wasn't clear if it was you, I just saw that you, as scum, were night-killed. It may have been a mutiny. I woke up before I figured out exactly what happened.


It's probably best you don't defend BM, though, people who do so are scum. Unless they are me, in which case they are town, but town who should be voted for anyway.

[GIEFF]

You're talking about my dream? Are you serious?

[GIEFF]

I'm trying to limit the posting, but I figure that some content from me is better than no content from anybody?


-----

unvote

vote KMD

• KMD spent the majority of his effort on page 1 defending camn's scummy behavior, even though the points on which he caught camn-scum in a different game (outlined in Post 600) also applied to her behavior THIS game, as I pointed out in Post 602. Yet KMD never backed off his camn-defense, never stopped calling her obv-town.
  
  
• His Mastin vote was very weird, too. He excused it as soon as he made it by saying "either Mastin or camn is the lynch today" which wasn't the case at ALL.
  
  
• Even odder - two posts before his Mastin vote, he claimed he would rather lynch alex, me, or bcc instead of Mastin - Mastin was actually probably only 4 or 5 on his list. Yet, when given the opportunity to switch to alex, he did not. He NEVER unvoted Mastin until lynch went through, even though there were so many others he claimed to want to lynch.
  
  
• KMD tunneled in on me early on (jumping on as the 3rd vote), refusing to explain his reasoning until much, much later, when he could make something up. Today, he's jumped on the Battle Mage wagon (also as the 3rd vote), for ticky-tack reasons.

[GIEFF]

Because I'm never wrong.

[GIEFF]

Well done, alex, that looks pretty damning.

What do you think about my post 1487?

Nobody responded to it, and I didn't want to keep repeating it, but it was the main reason I voted for Sensfan at the start of this day. Do you think Sens' hammer was scummy?

[GIEFF]

And I'll vote/hammer him if he's going to be lynched.

I

seriously

don't see the issue here.

What do you think, Battle Mage?

[GIEFF]

I defended her because I had a strong town read on her and someone (I believe it was you) asked me to go into detail about why your case was crap, so I did.

Demonstrably false. I only asked you to go into detail BECAUSE you had spent so much effort defending her.

Post 405 is where I asked you to explain why you were defending camn.

Posts 366, 390, 394, 401, and Post 404 are all examples of you defending camn BEFORE I asked you to go into detail.


And I did read you in iso. You have done very little scumhunting. You have VERY few posts that are not either defending camn, or attacking me for attacking camn.

[GIEFF]

Yaw with the quick trigger-finger. Nicely done.

[GIEFF]

Sens, could you make a case for you think is scum? You have been awfully passive this game, agreeing with others' logic rather than try to forge ahead on your own.

[GIEFF]

Why are scum more likely to be defeatist than town?



And Spy, stop trying to chain-lynch me through others' alignments. You want to lynch me, come at me now. It's too easy for scum to control the game like that.

[GIEFF]

And Spyrex, what was with the whole "le sigh" thing? YOU are in control of your vote, not me. Why did you try to make it look like you had no choice but to follow us onto KMD?

unvote

Vote Sensfan

(L-3)

[GIEFF]

Why N0?

[GIEFF]

So, if you are town, Sens, you quicklynch Cephrir without even having read the thread because you are throwing a hissyfit over the player list and refuse to play?


I hope you're scum.

[GIEFF]

Hah, you realize I was just waiting to hammer Mastin the first chance I got, right?

I'm not going to end discussion and quickhammer.
I meant that as in days dragging on and on without anyone having the balls to hammer.

------------------

GIEFF, no. I knew Cephir had to be lynched, and there were no worse than random odds.

How did you know that without even reading the thread? This is not an individual game. This is a team game.

[GIEFF]

Battle Mage, you have waffled so often on my alignment that I am surprised that you are now SO sure I am scum that my case on KMD is enough for you to not want to vote him.

You've done the "read alignment through others" trick before, to explain your turn-around on Mastin based on alex's scumminess. I assume this is similar? I am so scummy that KMD has to be town?

[GIEFF]

unvote

Vote Battle Mage

[GIEFF]

Battle Mage, you have waffled so often on my alignment that I am surprised that you are now SO sure I am scum that my case on KMD is enough for you to not want to vote him.

You've done the "read alignment through others" trick before, to explain your turn-around on Mastin based on alex's scumminess. I assume this is similar? I am so scummy that KMD has to be town?

No. Your case doesnt make me think KMD is scum. Once again, you have to make the distinction between what you TRY to say, and what actually comes across. :P

BM

I was saying that my case made you NOT want to vote for KMD.

[GIEFF]

To me seemed he was posting loads to seem town, instead of actually finding scum with any of it.

That is ridiculous. We haven't once lynched my preferred lynch-target. How do you know if I'm catching scum or not?

[GIEFF]

Don't confuse whom I am voting at any given moment with my preferred lynch-target.


I voted Battle Mage because he is either deliberately misunderstanding me, or missing incredibly obvious points to avoid having to respond to them.

[GIEFF]

EBWOP: I voted BM because he is either misunderstanding me or deliberately missing incredibly obvious points to avoid having to respond to them.

[GIEFF]

I don't know. Sens is probably #1 target still. Close with BM. Hard to say. KMD was not my preferred lynch target when I voted him. These are bad questions to ask me unless you think I'm scum, Zach.

[GIEFF]

He was at L-1 for 9 minutes, during which time I did not check the thread.

[GIEFF]

He went from no votes to L-1 in two and a half hours. You're questioning the FIRST person on the wagon instead of those who ran him up to L-1 so quickly? Because I didn't unvote as soon as KMD hit L-2? I don't understand your suspicion.

And yes, these questions do absolutely no good unless you think I may be scum.

[GIEFF]

If I had unvoted at L-2, we wouldn't have seen Spyrex's way scummy, resigned vote to put KMD at L-1, while trying to blame it all on me.

[GIEFF]

No. Your case doesnt make me think KMD is scum.

So when you said this, did you really mean to say "Your case doesn't make me think KMD is

town

?"

If so, then what did you mean by this?

Was considering a KMD vote, until i read this ^.

----

And yes, these questions do absolutely no good unless you think I may be scum.

I thought the whole purpose of the game was to try and determine whether you are scum or not? Do you consider yourself confirmed town?

BM

No. Zach just said recently that he thought I was town. Answers to questions like the ones Zach is asking can help scum, but if some good comes out of the answers (i.e. Zach is more sure of my alignment), then it's fine.

---

And yes, Zach, I do think that Spy's vote in Post 2081 was super scummy. Both because his previous post was about how his #1-scum-target DDD was on the KMD wagon, and also because he tried to blame ME for his vote. And he hasn't posted in the thread since Thursday, 5 hours after his vote. Hard to say if he's active elsewhere on the site though, as search is down.

[GIEFF]

BM, I am confused. I made a case on KMD. You said that you were thinking about KMD, but seeing my case convinced you not to vote. Right?

Why did my case convince you not to vote.




Also, I went throught he arduous effort of google-searching Spyrex - he has just 4 posts in other games since his last one here, and I just saw his sig says he is V/LA for the weekend. When he does return (which is hopefully soon), I would like for him to answer:

Why did you try to make it look like you had no choice but to follow us onto KMD?

[GIEFF]

So why don't the DDD cases boil down to the same point, Spyrex?

[GIEFF]

Easy....

[GIEFF]

Sens, I feel as if you aren't making any new cases this game. You complain about too much posting, you complain about nk-speculation, but you haven't helped us find scum. You quicklynched a townie yesterday without even reading the thread, ending discussion.

None of this is useful to the town. I don't know if that is what Benmage meant, but it is how I feel.

[GIEFF]

First of all, you know I favour quicklynches as Town, since you've seen me do it.
Secondly, you say that as if we knew Cephir was a Townie before he was lynched.
Thirdly, you're putting the blame on me, when there were 6 other people on the wagon, equally to blame.
Fourthly, I had read and posted earlier in the day.
Fifth, ending discussion was a godsend. We've had far too much of it.

OK this is good, thanks Sens.

1. I know you favor quicklynches when you think that person is scum. But you admitted Cephrir was no better than random. And earlier in the thread I said you may try to hide behind that meta to get in a quicklynch.

2. We didn't know that Cephrir is a townie, but I didn't like the lynch, and could have possibly convinced others if given more time.

3. No, they are NOT equally to blame. Others on the wagon have said they did not want to see a lynch happen that fast, and were surprised you did it.

4. This is wrong. You had NOT read and posted earlier in the day. You voted on Wednesday, saying:

Unvote, Vote: Cephir

Haven't read a post since my last post.

See you all tomorrow.

Your last post was on Tuesday, about 19 hours prior.

5. Ending discussion was not good. The discussion was about the viability of a Cephrir lynch, and obviously cutting that short was not a good idea. We could have replaced Cephrir, and gotten another active player into the game.



----

You said "see you all tomorrow" after hammering Cephrir. Did you think it very unlikely that you would be nightkilled?

[GIEFF]

The silence/ignoring is probably to stop himself getting modkilled.


-----
Understood about the time-zone Sens, thanks.


Have you made any cases on anybody in this game? I don't see any.


Why didn't you think you could be NK'd on night 2? What if Cephrir was scum - wouldn't it be likely that his buddies would kill you off?

[GIEFF]

Yes, and that Sens-quote was in response to a direct question from me.

So while it's not OMGSCUMLYNCHIMNOW scummy, it is still odd, and Sens still hasn't explained why scum wouldn't try to kill him if Cephrir flipped scum.

If Sens were town, he'd think there were at least a possibility that Cephrir were town, right? And hammering scum like that would make him viewed as ultra-townie the next day, so I'd think he'd be VERY scared of getting NK'd that night, pending Cephrir's alignment.

Right?

[GIEFF]

unvote

[GIEFF]

@Benmage: I am not willing to lynch DDD today. I don't like you trying to force us into an either/or situation here. What is the rush?


Spyrex, why don't you think Sensfan would have been nightkilled if Cephrir flipped scum? You don't think it's odd that he assumed he wouldn't be? He is a popular scum-kill target, isn't he?

[GIEFF]

@Benmage: I am not willing to lynch DDD today.

You may have answered this already, but it's late at night so I'm going to ask again: Why?

I haven't seen a case against him that is anything more than lurking. I'm done with lynching lurkers. If lurking is part of a scummy pattern of behavior, then yeah, but no lynches that are based almost solely on activity.

[GIEFF]

DDD and Sens - have either of you made a case on anybody this game?

[GIEFF]

I am being completely straightforward about why I don't like a DDD lynch. There is nothing weird about it.

And I have been voting for Sens most of this day - I didn't just jump on a wagon out of nowhere.

[GIEFF]

Thank you, Vi.

And for the ijits that need it explained:
I am not speculating about Night Kills. I am saying that there is an absolute 0% chance that I will be killed. That's just plain common sense, given that half of you want me lynched, and I have no power role. Furthermore, that comment cannot hurt the Town, since if the Scum actually do Night Kill me, I become confirmed Town and you can all realize how wrong and Scum you are.

Wait just a second here. Half the people want you lynched? You said on DAY 2 that you had no chance of getting night-killed. Yet you had absolutely NO pressure put on you on day 2. Benmage threw out an OMGUS vote during his hissy fit, but you had absolutely no other votes on you that day.

And your WIFOM-defense won't fly, either. You are a common scum-NK target, you may have just quick-hammered Cephrir-scum, you had NO SUSPICION AT ALL thrown your way on Day 2, yet you had no fear whatsoever about a night kill? I don't believe it.

vote sensfan

[GIEFF]

Yep, real straightforward:

How is that not straightforward? The only case on DDD is that he is lurking. We've lynched 2 people mainly because they were lurking - I'm done with it. I've asked repeatedly for somebody to bring a case up to DDD that doesn't revolve mainly around lurking, but nobody has done it.

Note this defense of DDD is stronger than any attempts at a real case on Sens has been. I can dig up more if we need.

Here, let me help you dig:

1487
2070
2079
2107
2114
2191
2194
2197
2224

[GIEFF]

Spyrex - you claimed I spent more effort defending DDD than attacking Sens. I demonstrated this isn't true. Stop moving the goalposts closer. I've wanted to lynch him this entire day.


You are defending Sens more ardently than I ever defended DDD.


All your posts are about DDD's lurking.

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote Battle Mage

There, the main wagon is on Battle Mage now. Please defend him?

[GIEFF]

A full case? Probably not, I usually put those together after an ISO read and an ISO read of anyone besides me in this game sounds about as fun as a transcranial lobotomy.

[distancing]But this was NOT the case for most of this game. Early on, you had plenty of opportunity to try to make a case with much shorter iso-reads, but you didn't. And you don't have to read an entire iso to make a case. So I don't buy your excuse.[/distancing]

unvote

vote sensfan

[GIEFF]

What am I wrong about, Vi?

[GIEFF]

Ah man, I didn't use to be the target of your assaults. Is it personality- or game-related?

[GIEFF]

Vi:

I attack just about everybody. It is my playstyle. I do it because it gives the best reactions. At no point today did I want to lynch KMD. I vote-hop because it gives reactions. I always have to balance how scummy my play is perceived with how much information "scummy" behavior can give me.

[GIEFF]

It's worked pretty well in the past.

[GIEFF]

So why not parse out what this game is "lol, reactions" and what was actually "hay this is me, being town, doing things I believe in"

It's not really doing this I don't believe. For example, I really did think KMD acted scummy. I could have just kept my vote on whomever I wanted to see lynched, but by making a case and switching a vote, we learned a LOT. Scum aren't usually run up to L-1 that quickly, and the people who jumped on that wagon late (especially you) just earned some scumpoints.

Another example is the vote-swapping test with alex to see how far he would go to stop a Mastin lynch.

This is a mountainous setup. We don't have any power roles to help us, so stuff like that is more important.



I don't really believe any of that, I'm just seeing how you'll react to it.

[GIEFF]

Almost certainly.

[GIEFF]

I also think it's also almost certain that at least one scum was OFF the wagon, Zach. Vi, Sens, and DDD not all three being scum does NOT imply Spy-scum.

[GIEFF]

I think it's a fantastic vote. I was just correcting what I perceived to be faulty logic.

When you said:

I think it would be crazy to believe that Vi, Sens, and DDD could possibly all be scum together.

It looked like you were implying that if one of those three are town, then Spy must be scum, but this isn't true at all. It doesn't mean your other reason is poor.

[GIEFF]

Zach was analyzing how the wagon ran up to L-1 so quickly.

I was the initiator of the wagon, so of course I was not part of that analysis.


KMD - what are your thoughts on how quickly the wagon built up on you?

[GIEFF]

jammer, why are you focusing on DDD's "bandwagoning" L-2 vote, but completely ignoring Spyrex's L-1 vote?

Being the initiator of a wagon doesn't mean that you are not part of how it got to L-1.

But how it got to L-1 isn't the point - the point is how QUICKLY it got to L-1.

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote spyrex

But if he flips scum, WE'RE LYNCHING ZACH NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

[GIEFF]

er.... if he flips town.

[GIEFF]

Because you were the first vote on the wagon. You are fully culpable for any future actions. That'll teach you to scumhunt and try to make new cases.

[GIEFF]

It was sarcasm, Zach... I don't think he'll flip town anyway, so you're safe.

[GIEFF]

I should have said *sigh* first so it was clearer.

[GIEFF]

Earlier today, I asked you multiple times why you thought Spyrex was town, and when you finally responded, you said "he is concise, and makes sense."

DDD has also been concise, and seems to make sense to me.

So please show me where DDD either doesn't make sense or is NOT concise. If you cannot, then you are applying both town-tells (concise, makes sense) AND scum-tells (hopping on the KMD wagon) inconsistently to Spyrex/DDD.

[GIEFF]

Ugh,
Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as extra tells. Makes it a higher count of tells.

What other scum-tells are there besides these two "extra" tells?

Questioning players you do not suspect at all is rather pointless.

Are you saying don't suspect Spyrex at all, and this is why you aren't questioning him?

--------

In Post 2108, spyrex unvoted KMD:

Unvote

Some of that was serious out-of-game irritation.

What did you mean by this, Spyrex?

And jammer, note that as soon as Spy was called out on his KMD vote (by Vi in Post 2100, he quickly unvoted, and didn't come back to the thread for four days.

--------

Yaw, could you please prod KMD?

[GIEFF]

What did you mean by this, Spyrex?

And jammer, note that as soon as Spy was called out on his KMD vote (by Vi in Post 2100, he quickly unvoted, and didn't come back to the thread for four days.

That I had some out-of-game things that were getting under my skin and affecting my play?

Where I said I had some burnout and then went v/la for a few days and had it in my sig?

Yea.

By "affecting your play," were you referring to your vote for KMD, or your attempt to chain-lynch me through KMD's alignment? Or something else?

[GIEFF]

Hey Sens, if you're able to continue this game, could you respond to the rest of my points in Post 2194?

Who are the other VIs?

-----


Danny, you haven't answered this yet:

A full case? Probably not, I usually put those together after an ISO read and an ISO read of anyone besides me in this game sounds about as fun as a transcranial lobotomy.

[distancing]But this was NOT the case for most of this game. Early on, you had plenty of opportunity to try to make a case with much shorter iso-reads, but you didn't. And you don't have to read an entire iso to make a case. So I don't buy your excuse.[/distancing]

[GIEFF]

Yes, that attitude is a big problem. Saying this game is horrible and you hate it is a very convenient excuse for the following scummy behavior:

• lurking
  
• lack of scumhunting/cases
  
• trying to get days over quickly

So if you are town, and this game really is driving you crazy, please suck it up and stop complaining, as you are allowing scum to complain too, and play half-assed, and get away with it.

[GIEFF]

I'm not lurking in the slightest.
I make cases, people just aren't listening.
I hammered someone we couldn't have read anyways. And the days have been anything but "quick".

Sorry, GIEFF, try again.

I wasn't clear - more people than you are complaining about this game, and of EVERYONE doing it, those three anti-town behaviors are excused by the annoyance factor. The "you" was to everybody, not just you.


Can you answer my points, and tell me who the other VI's are?

[GIEFF]

I make cases, people just aren't listening.

Multiple people have asked you multiple times to link to the cases you have made, and you've refused to do so. If you want us to "listen", you have to listen, too.

[GIEFF]

it is irritating to say the least to not be able to get any real traction on DDD.

You yourself just admitted it was in-game irritation...

[GIEFF]

The Living

Debonair Danny DiPietro

Day 1

Vote: Kairyuu (Post 10)
Unvote; Vote: Cephrir (Post 60)
Unvote; Vote: Mastin (Post 249)

Day 2

Vote: Cephrir (Post 1308)

Day 3

Vote: SpyreX (Post 1946)
Unvote; Vote: KMD (Post 2060)
Unvote; Vote: Battle Mage (Post 2212)

alexhans

Day 1

Vote broomhead (Post 13)
FoS Benmage (Post 95)
Vote SensFan (Post 278)
Unvote, Vote Battle Mage (Post 875)

Day 2

Vote BCC (Post 1361)

Day 3

FoS: SensFanVote Battle Mage (Post 1485)
I'm back, for those who've dared to call me a lurker, I hope you don't dare skim this (Post 2268)

SpyreX

Day 1

Unvote, Vote: Zachrules (Post 231)
Unvote, vote: Cephrir (Post 538)
Unvote, Vote Debonair Danny DiPietro (Post 651)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 739)
Unvote, Vote Camn (Post 793)
Unvote (Post 903)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 906)
Unvote (Post 923)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 1069)

Day 2

Vote: Cephrir (Post 1452)

Day 3

Vote: DDD (Post 1606)
Unvote: Vote GIEFF (Post 1871)
Unvote, Vote: KMD (Post 2082)
Unvote (Post 2109)
Vote: DDD (Post 2184)

jammer

Day 1

Vote: SensFan (Post 22)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 57)
Unvote: GIEFF Vote: Cephrir (Post 205)
Unvote: Cephrir Vote: GIEFF (Post 426)
Mod: Prod Mastin. Unvote: Gieff Vote: Mastin (Post 711)
Unvote (Post 751)
Vote: Spyrex (Post 807)
Unvote: SpyreX (Post 993)

Day 2

Vote: Benmage (Post 1115)
Unvote: Benmage Vote: BCC (Post 1349)
Unvote: BCC Vote: Cephrir (Post 1357)

Day 3

Vote: blackcatcontract (Post 1499)
Unvote (Post 1825)
Vote: DDD (Post 2311)

GIEFF

Day 1

Vote: jammer (Post 31)
unvote jammer (Post 56)
Vote Mastin (Post 70)
FOS alexhans (Post 128)
FoS camn (Post 339)
UnvoteVote: Battle Mage (Post 362)
unvotevote camnHOS BattleMage (Post 411)
confirm vote: camn (Post 676)
UnvoteVote mastin (Post 726)
unvotevote spyrex (Post 794)
unvotevote mastin (Post 871)
Unvote Mastin (Post 877)
Vote alex (Post 883)
unvoteVote Mastin (Post 1071)

Day 2

Vote Benmage (Post 1112)
unvotevote blackcatcontract (Post 1339)

Day 3

Vote Sensfan (Post 1487)
unvotevote blackcatcontract (Post 1644)
unvote bcc/Vi (Post 1834)
vote Sensfan (Post 1835)
unvotevote Vi (Post 1918)
unvotevote Sensfan (Post 1930)
unvotevote KMD (Post 2049)
unvoteVote Sensfan (Post 2099)
unvoteVote Battle Mage (Post 2150)
unvote (Post 2246)
vote sensfan (Post 2267)
unvotevote Battle Mage (Post 2274)
unvotevote spyrex (Post 2316)

Zachrulez

Day 1

Vote: Gieff (Post 46)
Unvote:Vote: Mastin (Post 63)
FOS: Alexhans (Post 298)
Unvote: Vote: Gieff (Post 1024)
Unvote: Vote: Mastin (Post 1062)

Day 2

Vote: Benmage (Post 1104)
Vote: Gieff (Post 1202)
Unvote: Vote: blackcatcontract (Post 1311)
Unvote Vote: Cephrir (Post 1453)

Day 3

Vote: Debonair Danny Dipeitro. (Post 1563)
Unvote, Vote: Alex (Post 1651)
Vote: Alexhans (Post 1657)
Unvote, Vote: Alex (Post 1701)
Unvote: Vote: Battle Mage (Post 1712)
Vote: Sensfan (Post 2110)
Unvote: Vote: Spyrex (Post 2296)

SensFan

Day 1

Vote" jammer (Post 47)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 209)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 270)
Unvote, Vote: GIEFF (Post 416)
Unvote: Vote Mastin (Post 473)
Unvote. (Post 474)

Day 2

Vote: Benmage (Post 1103)
Unvote, Vote: Cephir (Post 1480)

Day 3

Vote: KMD (Post 2054)
Unvote, Vote: Benmage (Post 2229)

Benmage

Day 1

Vote Mastin (Post 83)
unvote (Post 194)
Vote Mastin (Post 230)
Vote Camn (Post 644)
vote Mastin (Post 866)
vote Gieff (Post 957)
Vote Mastin (Post 1075)

Day 2

Vote SensFan (Post 1105)
vote Benmage (Post 1116)
unvote (Post 1176)
vote Cephrir (Post 1259)
vote Cephrir (Post 1343)

Day 3

Vote SensFan (Post 1524)
Vote DDD (Post 1778)
Unvote (Post 2004)
Vote SensFan. (Post 2070)
@Those voting SF or DDD (Post 2244)

Battle Mage

Day 1

Vote: Ben (Post 69)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 72)
Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans (Post 111)
Confirm Vote: Alex (Post 143)
Unvote, Vote: Gieff (Post 214)
Unvote, Vote: VP Baltar (Post 354)
Unvote, Vote: Camn (Post 659)
Unvote (Post 692)
Vote: Camn (Post 753)
Unvote, Vote: Jammer (Post 809)
Unvote, Vote: Alexhans (Post 985)

Day 2

Vote: Gieff (Post 1224)
Unvote, Vote: Zach (Post 1235)
Unvote (Post 1248)
Vote: Cephrir (Post 1252)
Unvote (Post 1351)
Unvote, Vote: Cephrir (Post 1359)
Unvote, Vote: Zach (Post 1402)

Day 3

Vote: Kmd (Post 1506)
Unvote, Vote: DDD (Post 1573)
Unvote, Vote: Alex (Post 1576)
Unvote, Vote: Jammer (Post 1730)
Unvote, Vote: Gieff (Post 1749)
Unvote (Post 2048)
Vote: DDD (Post 2130)

Kmd4390

Day 1

Vote Cephrir (Post 253)
Unvote, Vote GIEFF (Post 320)
Unvote, Vote Alexhans (Post 720)
Unvote, Vote Mastin (Post 806)

Day 2

Vote GIEFF (Post 1327)

Day 3

Vote alexhans (Post 1486)
Unvote, Vote blackcatcontract (Post 1493)
Unvote BlackVote Battle Mage (Post 1802)

Vi

Day 3

Vote: Zachrulez (Post 1911)
Vote: DDD (Post 1932)
Vote: KMD (Post 2051)
Vote: Sensfan (Post 2082)

No Longer With Us

Kairyuu

Day 1

vote: alexhans (Post 8)
vote: jammer (Post 23)

Mastin

Day 1

Mastin Votes: Mastin (Post 7)
Mastin Unvotes: Mastin, Mastin Votes: Battle Mage (Post 11)

VP Baltar

Day 1

Vote GIEFF (Post 113)
Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage (Post 144)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 237)
Unvote, Vote:alexhans (Post 524)
Unvote, Vote Mastin (Post 745)

Cephrir

Yes. No votes. Seriously. A player lurked for 1482 posts without a single vote, or even a FOS. That is just insane.

camn

Day 1

Vote: VP BALTHAR (Post 6)
unvote Vote :GIEFF (Post 65)
UNVOTE (Post 146)
Vote : Gieff (Post 150)
UNVOTE vote: Benmage (Post 305)
UNVOTE (Post 438)
VOTE: MASTIN (Post 454)
UNvote Vote Camn (Post 645)
MORE CAMN VOTES PLEASE!!!!!! (Post 682)
UNVOTE VOTE: MASTIN (Post 868)
UNVOTE VOTE GIEFF (Post 962)

Day 2

VOTE CEPHIR (Post 1472)

[GIEFF]

Yeah, sorry, I made some changes to the script and it looked like I added a bug - it counted BM's vote in the quote.

Also, the url's are messed up - when you click a link, delete the "/url" at the end of it.

[GIEFF]

I've thought Zach was town for a long time now. He is not my parrot.

[GIEFF]

Half the game has voted for me. Zach has said numerous times he finds me scummy. Lately, he is leaning more town on me. I don't see the problem.

[GIEFF]

What sort of qualms should I have, Spyrex, and why?

[GIEFF]

Updated activity table:

[mrow]Player[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / Day[col]GIEFF[col]11.2[col]4.6[col]alexhans[col]3.5[col]3[col]Battle Mage[col]8.4[col]2.7[col]Vi[col]4.2[col]2.4[col]camn[col]6.8[col]2.3[col]Benmage[col]6.9[col]2.1[col]Mastin[col]1.6[col]1.3[col]Zachrulez[col]6.8[col]1.3[col]VP Baltar[col]3.6[col]1.1[col]SpyreX[col]2.4[col]1.1[col]jammer[col]1.8[col]0.9[col]blackcatcontract[col]2.5[col]0.8[col]Kmd4390[col]2.6[col]0.7[col]Kairyuu[col]1.2[col]0.5[col]SensFan[col]2.2[col]0.5[col]Debonair Danny DiPietro[col]1.1[col]0.4[col]Cephrir[col]0.5[col]0.2[col]


Note that people like bcc and Mastin are relatively high because I only count the days between their first and last posts, not between their first post and the current day.

[GIEFF]

GIEFF's vote analysis is almost completely worthless because there's no conclusion at the end. Likewise with this recent activity analysis.

Alex requested it, so I posted it.



Here are my thoughts, though:

Sens and DDD have contributed very similarly in terms of actual words, and in terms of presenting cases.

Alex has voted remarkably infrequently for somebody who posts so much.

[GIEFF]

You are interested in an alex lynch now?



Also, it's a little odd for you to call the analysis useless - if it allows you to make your own conclusions, then it isn't usless at all. Do you see anything interesting in the votes/activity tables, Vi?

[GIEFF]

What other scum-tells are there besides these two "extra" tells?

Well those are the main ones I thought about when I voted. Together that I do not get any sense of town from DDD. I go and post a (bigger) case on DDD later.

Oh. So there ARE no other tells. So please, explain this:

Ugh,
Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as

extra tells

. Makes it

a higher count of tells

.

Because from where I'm sitting, it looks a lot like jammer-scum fabricating reasons for voting for DDD, trying to make it look like he has more reasons than he really does. You did the same thing when you called me scummy, then backed down when Vi pressed you for examples. Claiming you have reasons, but when pressed, revealing that you do NOT have reasons is very scummy.


Also, you were unable to find an instance of DDD not being "concise and making sense." Which is your only town-tell for spyrex.

[GIEFF]

So it's best just not to make any cases at all? That's a ridiculous stance to take. How do you expect to find any scum?

(Two question marks, for your convenience).

[GIEFF]

First of all, for all the people calling me scummy for supposedly not making any cases, I find it ironic and scummy that no one's made a case on me that I can respond to.

Now hold on just one darn-tootin' second here, Mister.

I'll respond to the rest later, GIEFF

Benmage, stop being a dumbass.
If I don't have time to respond to the person that's

making a case against me

, I sure as hell don't have time to respond to the person who's asking me to prove I'm Town, and refusing to show why he thinks I'm Scum.

Now, I took your claim that you would respond to the rest later in good faith. But now it's clear that you're just ignoring it when you claim nobody has made a case on you, completely forgetting about your bolded statement above.

I don't know why I continue to give you the benefit of the doubt. I asked you so many times about jammer (as did others), and you refused to answer. Myself and others have also asked you time and time and time and time again to LINK TO A CASE YOU HAVE MADE ON SOMEONE, and you continue to refuse to. You can't just blindly assert something over and over again in the face of evidence to the contrary and expect to be taken seroiusly without providing evidence of your own.

I've given you too much good faith already, but it ends now. I can no longer believe anything you say.

unvote

Vote Sensfan

[GIEFF]

But if you flip town, we lynch Vi.

[GIEFF]

Seriously?


That was more sarcasm...

Just another little poke at Spy.

[GIEFF]

I'm glad we all agree that when Spyrex did it SERIOUSLY, it made no sense at all.


And my vote wasn't putting soemone at L-1 immediately after complaining about how my #1 scum-target just jumped on the wagon.

[GIEFF]

At least Spyrex answers a question when it's asked of him. Sens just keeps saying the same thing over and over, without listening, without even trying to play the game.

[GIEFF]

Here is the "case" I made on Sens, in Post 2194.

Note that it does not matter if you think it's a case, what is important is that SENS thinks it's a case.

Why would you say "them" and not some form of "I" if you are implying a town loss?

This is a good point.

[GIEFF]

Hmmmmm. You used town in a "them" context. That actually is interesting.

Actually, it looked like he was using Sens and DDD in a "them" context, calling them town. Alex, do you have town reads on Sens and Triple-D?

[GIEFF]

If DDD and SF are both scum, alex, which is definitely possible, why would their behavior make you say "fuck the town, let it lose?" Had you considered this possibility?

[GIEFF]

Sens, dude, I'm really sorry you're having a tough time in life. I would never prey on that feeling, as scum or otherwise.

It's noble of you to not want to replace out because you respect Yaw, but at a certain point, it would probably have been BETTER for Yaw (and for us) to replace out. And better for yourself too, if it's making you sick. I don't think Yaw will mind horribly - we already have a replacement lined up in RedCoyote.

I don't think I"m playing horribly in relation to you, Sens. It is quite frustrating for me to keep asking you questions, and it seeming as though you are ignoring them.

unvote sens

I'm unvoting because that struck me as really genuine. I don't think Sens-scum would fake something like that to get out of trouble.

[GIEFF]

Benmage and alex, relax on the cussing and emotions. Makes the game less fun, and makes the town less likely to win.

I've said my piece on Sens, you guys have too, so let's drop it for now unless he has something to add, and continue playing the game.


I have not been impressed with jammer's play lately, either.

[GIEFF]

Vi - a KMD lynch would be equivalent? I thought you didn't like the case?

[GIEFF]

@GIEFF: I didn't like your case, but after taking another look I still think he's been scummy.

Summary of his scummy actions, please?

Also, do you like a Spy lynch?

[GIEFF]

He named us scum because he said he is SO obviously town, that any good player who can't see that must be scum.


Do you really think he's obviously town?


I don't like Vi's behavior this last page or so, but not because of what Sens said.

[GIEFF]

I see the game similarly, Vi. Too many people look like scum. Even you have looked scummy in the last two pages. I almost have to just accept you being town though, because if you are not, then we are in big trouble, based on all the inactivity/apathy/faulty logic elsewhere in this game.


I am pretty similarly active when I am scum, Vi, so activity alone should not give you a town read on me.

[GIEFF]

I know. But what else can I do?

If it is true that Vi-scum means a 100% chance of a town-loss (which isn't necessarily true), then the only correct way to proceed with the game is assuming Vi-town.

[GIEFF]

Because Vi makes a lot of sense, is actively trying to find scum, and is active. That is the most pro-town play of anyone in this game, and if our towniest player is scum, then we're doomed.

I am not saying that I view Vi as definite town, I am just explaining the consequences of so many people looking scummy. Vi has acted scummy the last two pages.

[GIEFF]

So I read this, and have no clue what you even mean...

You voted DDD. You claimed that the two tells you mentioned (lurking and easy wagoning) were just "extra" tells, part of a larger case. I asked you what the larger case was, and you admitted there was none. This is horribly scummy.

Also, you were unable to find an instance of DDD not being "concise and making sense." Which is your only town-tell for spyrex.

Uh, do you want me to make a town-case on spyrex? Becouse that is the last thing I will be doing. In the first few days he simply seemed town to me, somewhat less the latter time. You might find DDD as consise as spyrex I actually got to disagree with it if I read back. He makes short posts but not consise et all.

No, of course not. I want you to apply the same reasoning to Spyrex (he is town because he is concise and makes sense) that you do to DDD.

[GIEFF]

You're right, but I just don't see Vi doing enough scummy things to push him ahead of everyone else.

[GIEFF]

So why not attack Vi directly Zach, instead of attacking my lack of attack?

Most people are scummier than Vi. Everyone but you. Maybe Benmage.

[GIEFF]

@Gieff, the lack of a bigger case was loss of a startup and being lazy afterwards.
I am applying the same reasoning for spyrex and DDD. But I am already getting where this is going, you need proof, then you want me to post why spyrex is town and DDD is not in comparison.

No. You have already explained why you think Spyrex is town. Yet you have not shown why you are not applying these same towntells to DDD.


No, the lack of a bigger case was you pretending to have these extra reasons, but when pressed, revealing you did not.

[GIEFF]

Was attacking your mentality toward Vi more than anything else. I find it dangerous to think that way.

What makes me town? I don't think I've ever asked you.

I forget exactly. There was a specific thing you did in a specific post I think on day 2 that convinced me.


I also think your suspicion of me throughout the thread has been genuine, unlike that of so many others, which waxes and wanes with how the wind blows, and how viable a GIEFF-lynch appears to be.

[GIEFF]

Vi, we should probably vote, it looks bad not to. Who should we bandwagon? If we both do it together, we can get either DDD or BM to L-1. Your call.

[GIEFF]

I don't know. Sens is probably #1 target still. Close with BM. Hard to say. KMD was not my preferred lynch target when I voted him. These are bad questions to ask me unless you think I'm scum, Zach.

^This post reminds me so much of whatever number open game it was that Nameless modded where GIEFF was town that it's not even funny.

I read my iso in that game:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... osts=10210

What are you referring to that this quote reminds you of?


------

jammer, I don't know what those quotes from Spy and DDD are meant to illustrate. Can you explain? If anything, it looks like you are saying their play has been similar, but this doesn't explain why you are focusing so much more on DDD than on Spyrex.

2) I did not have a bigger case, I wanted to get one to elaborate.

You led us to believe you had a bigger case when you said:

Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as extra tells. Makes it a higher count of tells.

Does anyone else think this is wildly scummy? Claiming to have additional tells when there really are none to make your case appear stronger than it really is?

[GIEFF]

So the easy wagoning and lurking are complete blatent lies about DDDs play?
If not, I miss your point completely.

No.

You claimed that the easy wagoning and lurking were "extra" tells, in addition to some other, unnamed tells.

I asked you what these other tells were, and you admitted there were none.

This is scummy, because you were trying to represent your case on DDD as having more points than it actually did.


Is my point really this difficult to understand?

[GIEFF]

I am having an extremely difficult time communicating with you, jammer

Here are my understanding of the situation. Let me know which of them is untrue.

1. In Post 2329, you were referring to "extra tells" on DDD.

2. When you called the lurking and easy-wagoning "extra tells" you were implying that DDD dropped other scumtells BESIDES these two.

3. When pressed, you admitted that lurking and easy-wagoning were the only two tells you had.

[GIEFF]

Maybe i did something terribly wrong it became right

That's about right.

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote jammer

Plenty of room here, Vi. Plus, we get on the wagon early this way, and avoid suspicion.

[GIEFF]

You where comparing spyrex with DDD. So I said the tells besides the KMD vote that made me vote for DDD. The "extra tells".

No. If they were "extra tells" why did you include the KMD vote as one of them? The "easy wagon" was about KMD!

You are lying, lying, lying.

[GIEFF]

Who are your scumbuddies, jammer? If you tell us, we'll lynch them first. Be a good chap. You've caused enough harm. What with all the killing.

[GIEFF]

I'm 25. I have a wife. I love journey. Just FYI.

Looks like I'm the night-kill tonight. This game is weird. BM is scum. Sens is scum. Spyrex is like my best friend but I now he's scum sort of like in the godfather where it hurts me to say so, but I can't ignore it. Sorry spy-spy. Maybe in the next game we'll be on the same team and I can be your buddy.

[GIEFF]

shhh. jammer doesn't know that.

[GIEFF]

On tuesday, BM was happy with his vote. In his next post, 4 days later, he unvoted.

Why?

[GIEFF]

The key difference between this game and that one is probably my activity level.

What about your alignment? Is that another key difference?

[GIEFF]

Deadline is in less than a week, Sens.

[GIEFF]

What about your earlier claim that my case on KMD was poor, Vi?

And what about how quickly KMD was run up to L-1?

[GIEFF]

I'm more attacking your reasoning than defending KMD, but it's a little of both. YOU hopped on a wagon and then hopped off claiming the case was poor and you were just looking for reactions. YOU lamented about how quickly he was brought to L-1, and now you're back on the wagon again, due in large part to lurking? I do think the VC analysis is arbitrary, but don't understand why you think it makes KMD scum.

Jammer is lurking just as much as KMD. KMD has 15 posts in this last week, and 14 the week before that.

jammer has 11 posts in this last week, and 5 in the week before that. And I have questions directly to him that he hasn't answered. He hasn't posted in this thread in almost 72 hours.



You claimed your first vote on KMD was just for reactions. Did you get the reactions you were looking for? What did they tell you?

Mod: can you prod jammer?

[GIEFF]

Spyrex, DDD, and Sens all voted KMD after you did, Vi. And they all did it within 2 hours of your vote.

You think all of these players are scummy, right?



You really have no problem with voting the same person that three scummy people quick-bandwagoned up to L-1?

[GIEFF]

As I said, I'm not so much worried about KMD being voted as I am worried about your reasoning for doing so.

[GIEFF]

I've heard something terribly similar already today. That was... SpyreX 2457.

And immediately after Spyrex's 2457, you unvoted, said you didn't realize that those scummy people were also on the wagon, said you were confused, and were going to give up your independent thought for a little while.


And look at who is voting for jammer. Benmage, who you say is obvtown, and me, who you also think is town. Yet you bypassed jammer, who's been lurking way harder than KMD, even though his wagon has two townies on it, and start a KMD wagon, even though he was almost quicklynched by players you find scummy? And all this with just 6 days until a deadline by which we NEED to have 6 votes together?

[GIEFF]

I happy selfhammer myself out of the game.

How noble.

[GIEFF]

Seriously? I'm not your maid. That stuff takes a long time, time I don't have right now.

[GIEFF]

Hey jammer, vote for spyrex.


Zach, the Sens/Spy/BM thing was a drunken summary of the game as a whole, not necessarily about who I suspect right now. I've only wanted to lynch jammer pretty recently.


He may or may not be my preferred lynch - that's up to him, and whether or not he votes Spyrex.

[GIEFF]

OK, then do it because the scumtells you listed for DDD also apply to Spyrex.

[GIEFF]

Just put in a comma and it's fine:

"What do you think of Spyrex, jammer?"

[GIEFF]

His inactivity is bad, but somewhat explained by the fact that a game he is modding just started up.



It's 7.4 posts / day overall, Zach, so you're right, it was probably about 8 / day before his recent inactivity.

[GIEFF]

What do you want him to explain about the vote-count analysis, Vi?

[GIEFF]

It's in Post 1492. Read it yourself.

[GIEFF]

Jammer, you have done a lot of scummy things:

• You voted Mastin on day 1 (Post 710) after spending a lot of time defending him.
  
  
• Howver, you soon unvoted him (Post 750), even while continuing to call him useless.
  
  
• You tried to egg on my fight with camn.
  
  
• You weren't voting anybody at the end of day 2.
  
  
• You defended Mastin earlier in the day, but said NOTHING to try to stop his lynch later on.
  
  
• You didn't care if we lynched Cephrir or bcc - is it because you know they're both town?
  
  
• You unvoted Benmage in post 1348, even though you were still questioning him, and just randomly decided to "wagon a lurker." If you were town, you would still be suspicious of Benmage, and wouldn't have unvoted him just for a policy-vote. Looks more like the wagon petered out, so you wanted an excuse to jump off it.
  
  
• You said I wasn't useful in my scumhunting, but couldn't find any examples of it when pressed by Vi.
  
  
• You ignored Spyrex's vote for KMD but focused strongly on DDD's vote for KMD, using it as the main justification for your vote.

Everyone - look at jammer's votes. Very infrequent, never with any strong reasoning. He just randomly decides to wagon lurkers, unvotes while still throwing suspicion toward the person he just unvoted, and seems very uninterested in finding scum. He wasn't even using his vote at the end of day 1, and a lot of the time he's just wagoning lurkers, which neatly avoids having to put up any fake scumhunting.

jammer

Vote: SensFan (Post 22)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 57)
Unvote: GIEFF Vote: Cephrir (Post 205)
Unvote: Cephrir Vote: GIEFF (Post 426)
Mod: Prod Mastin. Unvote: Gieff Vote: Mastin (Post 711)
Unvote (Post 751)
Vote: Spyrex (Post 807)
Unvote: SpyreX (Post 993)
Vote: Benmage (Post 1115)
Unvote: Benmage Vote: BCC (Post 1349)
Unvote: BCC Vote: Cephrir (Post 1357)
Vote: blackcatcontract (Post 1499)
Unvote (Post 1825)
Vote: DDD (Post 2311)

[GIEFF]

I agree KMD's analysis is arbitrary, Vi - what I don't get is what you expect KMD to say about it.


Why did you unvote KMD, Vi?

[GIEFF]

I was in fact on site and not posting here. I read up yesterday, but nothing terribly interesting was said in my humble opinion so I skipped commenting for a day.

You are capable of writing interesting things yourself, you know.


We have plenty of numbers for a BM lynch.

[GIEFF]

See the whole "Vote SpyreX or get lynched" business? That's not so awesome. Doubly so when -you- aren't even voting for me.

lolreactions

[GIEFF]

No, game-avoidance is a great scumtell. Don't bring in specific stuff from ongoing games, but you can say "so and so is active on site but not posting here" without being unethical.

In my humble opinion.

[GIEFF]

The order in which my points are brought up does not have any bearing on their validity, Spyrex.

[GIEFF]

I like the fact that Zach unvoted when BM hit L-1, considering how this game has gone thus far.

[GIEFF]

Well that's half the battle there.

I guess I didn't look carefully at WHEN you'd been posting - just that you had been posting on that page.

I like 2652 a lot, overall.

In that case, you can probably leave your vote off of jammer. I'm glad jammer was able to assuage your suspicions about his activity.


Yes, jammer, not caring which lurker we lynch is very scummy. If you were town, you'd be wary of scum trying to shift the wagon. Two people who look equal to the town will NOT look equal to the scum if they have different alignments.

Not voting for someone at the end of the day is very scummy. The only weapon a townie has is his vote, and you weren't using it, and have used it rarely and poorly in this game.

Jammer, you hopped on his wagon at L-4 and left your vote there for a LONG time, yet weren't interesting in lynching him? Do you think that Benmage wagon classified as what you would call an "easy" wagon?

Yes, I've shared the reactions I've gotten. You still backed down when pressed for specifics, just like you backed down.


I was looking at Vi as town, yet when he does scummy actions, I notice them. Nobody gets a pass, and you are giving Spyrex one simply because he uses about 10% fewer words to make a point than DDD. That's silly.

unvote

[GIEFF]

Vote Spyrex

That putting KMD at L-1 vote (while blaming ME for it) is just too much, especially one post after lamenting the fact that his #1 scum-target just joined the wagon.

I don't have a problem with a Battle Mage lynch, but I prefer Spyrex.

More scummy-stuff:

• Spy's main reason for calling Battle Mage town is the "trap" he pulled, asking someone to claim cop.
  
  Yet when me, camn, and Kai did the same thing, Spy said:

  KMD comes in and we prove... that he's not retarded. Which I could have told you without all the SECRET PLANS. Well done.

  Why the inconsistency?
  
  
• Spyrex defended Mastin quite well early on, but ended up on the Mastin wagon. And as SOON as he voted, he said "I'm not thrilled with this," starting his mislynch-distancing early.
  
  
• He then tried to claim that Mastin didn't mention his copy-paste issue in other threads, when in reality, Mastin DID mention it. When I called him on this, he ignored it, instead saying:
  

  I'll vote camn. Hell, I help get it done.
  
  When she is town you vote yourself and just dont post anymore.

  The camn-kill made little sense, but Spy-scum had a motive: rubbing her towniness in my face.
  
  
• His scumhunting early on focused on the amount of words people wrote, not on their content. He declared with certainty that all the people posting a lot were anti-town, and trying to protect their lurking buddies. Yet this was all completely subjective - he ignored camn and kmd, who were both posting a whole lot, and in long posts, at the time Spyrex accused some of "spew." And making up a formula like this and letting it do the scumhunting for you is a great way, as scum, to appear to be scumhunting without having to go through the difficulty of faking a more complex analysis.
  
  
• He tried to chain-lynch me through Cephrir.
  
  
• He was inconsistent in his treatment of bcc's and Cephrir's lurking, although both lurked similarly, picking up prods, yet not posting:
  
  
• He said I was a good night kill, saying that there hasn't been a lot of suspicion thrown my way, and then tried to weasel out of it with semantics, saying he meant just
  significant
  discussion. More attempts to incriminate me based on things only scum can control.
  
  
• More semantics trying to explain away the KMD L-1 vote.

------

Vi, before your scummy behavior, I thought you were town. Yet when you started acting more scummy, I didn't ignore it. I'm trying to say that it is poor town-play to ignore scummy behavior because of an existing town-read. And jammer did just this by zeroing in on DDD's KMD-vote, but completely ignoring Spyrex's KMD-vote, which was WAY scummier.

I unvoted because I don't want to lynch jammer today. I'd still like you to answer my last post, jammer.

[GIEFF]

I think you're less town than you were, but more town than most.

There are better options than a jammer lynch, Vi. Do you like a jammer lynch?

[GIEFF]

I think the KMD vote to L-1 is enough to make you the best lynch for today.

The other stuff was just the scummy stuff I picked up after an iso-read.


I am a BM scum proponent.

[GIEFF]

I already answered your question Vi. I don't like a jammer lynch because there are better options.

[GIEFF]

Not padding. Extra persuasion. One incredibly scummy act with a bunch of other less scummy acts is overall a better case than just one incredibly scummy act.

I haven't stopped pressing on you.

You are trying to chain-lynch me again.

[GIEFF]

I wanted to see if jammer's refusal to suspect you was because he is your scumbuddy or if it's because he just doesn't think you're scummy, which will be very valuable information if you are scum. I'm leaning towards the latter.

[GIEFF]

Nobody unvoted BM, alex. He's still sitting pretty at L-2.

[GIEFF]

Ohh wow its finally happened with 4 days to a deadline.

I am shocked and or awed.

You were expecting me to vote for you?

[GIEFF]

Have I been expecting you to vote me?

Of course. You've done that before.

But why were you expecting me to vote you again before the deadline?

[GIEFF]

I was looking at Vi as town, yet when he does scummy actions, I notice them. Nobody gets a pass, and you are giving Spyrex one simply because he uses about 10% fewer words to make a point than DDD. That's silly.

I never told you I am ignoring spyrex, just do not see him not vote worthy at this time.

But you ignored Spyrex's vote for KMD, while making DDD's vote for KMD the crux of your case. Do you see why that is inconsistent?

[GIEFF]

DDD is an "easy wagon" too, right?

[GIEFF]

And you've been tying jammer to me with this no matter how you want to spin it.

Do you have a problem with me trying to chain-lynch jammer through you?




Benmage's contribution rate has dipped dramatically since he became convinced we all thought he was town.

[GIEFF]

jammer, what characteristics does wagon need to have be be called "easy?"

[GIEFF]

Spyrex needs lynching. Make it happen. A townie would NEVER put someone at L-1 right after complaining about his #1 scum-target voting him, based on a case that ANOTHER big scum-target started.

The only way he could explain it was based on external irritation, which is unverifiable, and when pressed on it, he then tried to claim it was in-game irritation, and when pressed on that, said he meant BOTH in-game and out-of-game irritation.

Isn't the much simpler explanation that he is scum, who doesn't really find either me OR DDD scummy? Distancing himself from the L-1 vote by "sighing" and trying to blame the lynch on me?

[GIEFF]

Haha, now you're trying to lynch me through yourself. And DDD through me. The triple-chain.


I wasn't really trying lynch jammer through you, I was just showing you that you can't call me scummy for it, because it's been your MO this game.


I don't think I'm going to convince enough people to hop off BM to lynch you anyway, Spy, so you can go ahead and kill me tonight and just claim that it was somebody else trying to incriminate you.

As for the second part. This actually bothers me. I am not going to fake real-life issues to flake out of a game. That is more than a little insulting.

You're right, I shouldn't have used the word "Unverifiable." I think lying about external circumstances like that to excuse scummy play is akin to cheating, and you seem to have enough integrity not to do something like that.

But the fact remains that the only explanation you could provide for your scummy behavior was external to the game. And your explanation changed over time when you were pressured about it.


You KNOW what you did was scummy - you've admitted as much. So why are you so sure that I am scum because I'm trying to lynch you? If you are town, what makes you so sure I wouldn't avoid the lynch tomorrow?

[GIEFF]

As I would be dead I couldn't "enforce" that threat. However, if I am scum how the hell could I have partners back up a threat built on the premise I am town?

This is the point. If you are town, how the hell could you enforce the threat if you are dead?


And this makes your threat read as just an empty attempt to try to scare me off your lynch. If you're town and convinced I'm scum, why aren't you voting me? Why aren't you making a case on me? You're not - you're just posturing, trying to make me worry about getting mislynched myself tomorrow in case you are town.

Wasn't your vote for KMD scummy?

[GIEFF]

I'm missing context, information, or something. Could you explain to me what this is about?

2658. His "case" on me that turned right back into the KMD vote.

That putting KMD at L-1 vote (while blaming ME for it) is just too much

, especially one post after lamenting the fact that his #1 scum-target just joined the wagon.

I don't have a problem with a Battle Mage lynch, but I prefer Spyrex.

More scummy-stuff:

I was pretty clear that the main reason was your KMD-vote. The other scummy stuff is just icing.

So, could it be scummy? Sure.

I'm pretty sure I never denied that.

So why am I so surely scum for voting you for an action that you ADMIT is scummy?

[GIEFF]

I think that one very-scummy action and a bunch of less-scummy actions is more damning than just one very-scummy action. Don't you? It's not that it doesn't matter, it's that it's not as damning as your KMD vote.



What? What major implication that BM is a partner?

[GIEFF]

There are no fabrications, no ripping from context. I know camn was very upset with this game - it was noble of you to release her from her obligation.

If the crux is the KMD vote why wait until NOW for the mad reals vote and the case to pad it?

Because I don't want to lynch jammer. I don't really want to lynch BM anymore, and I have no idea what to think about Sens. He's way scummy, and his outburst completely shut down his wagon. We probably shouldn't give it as much credence, considering similar outbursts have given people townpoints earlier in this game. But still, that leaves you as the best lynch-choice for today. And with 4 days to deadline, it's time to make that lynch happen.




Another point, Spy - you claim you don't want to vote me because losing DDD-town hurts less than losing GIEFF-town, right? Risk/reward? So with deadline so close, why aren't you trying to push a DDD-lynch?

You haven't even called DDD scummy since this Post 2307, 9 days ago, and have not been trying to drum up support for his lynch, even with deadline rapidly approaching, and his wagon trailing BM's. Why not?

[GIEFF]

You haven't attacked him in 9 pages. You're going all-out attack mode on me, mainly because I want you lynched, for behavior that YOU admit is scummy. Yet you refuse to vote me, because you like your vote on a player you've pretty much ignored for 10 days, while deadline was approaching?

[GIEFF]

EBWOP: Haven't attacked him in 9 DAYS, not 9 pages.

[GIEFF]

Hooray! He'll check back later!

[GIEFF]

If I look at it I can be quite surprised you are putting that much efford into looking at me as a scumbuddy of spyrex, while you can not be completely sure of the allignment of spyrex.

Applying scumtells inconsistently is scummy NO MATTER spyrex's algnment.

I would see gieff-scum do this far more then town-gieff.

Yet another attempt to discredit my spy-case. If you truly thought I was scummy, you would vote me. It's clear your objective is NOT to hunt scum, but to get me off of spy.

[GIEFF]

Don't you want to see him lynched, Spy?



Why haven't you been trying to make that happen? What have you done the last 9 days to help the town?

[GIEFF]

Hi, I'm GIEFF.

[GIEFF]

You've been there to derail it more than once.

So, you see me, who you think is scum, trying to de-rail a DDD wagon, who you also think is scum, and who you think SHOULD be the lynch target for the day. And you stay silent on the subject for 9 days? I don't buy it.

[GIEFF]

You are trying to change the subject. It's not relevant if you've called me out on de-railing the DDD wagon. What's relevant is that you've ignored DDD for 9 days.

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote GIEFF

[GIEFF]

V/LA until monday

[GIEFF]

With that said, the more I read into these connections the more I want to see GIEFF lynched today. Having his alignment pegged down would do analyses a world of good.

You're only looking at half the equation there, champ. What do you learn if I flip town?

It is not impossible for GIEFF and DDD

(the only lynch choices at this point)

to both be scum

That is not your decision to make.

[GIEFF]

I'm willing to wager that at most one of the scum in this game has been a leading wagon for over 200 posts, and that more specifically at least two of the scum is between {alexhans, GIEFF, Zachrulez, Kmd4390, DDD, SpyreX, jammer}.

This is EXACTLY the same arbitrary case you were just railing on KMD about making, Vi. Exactly.

[GIEFF]

(See previous comment about scum controlling this lynch.)

... says the man informing the town that we only have two lynch choices.

[GIEFF]

unvote

Vote spyrex

Sorry, guys. Some of that was serious out-of-game irritation.

[GIEFF]

How many times have people accused me of distracting from lynches? How many times has it been true?




I think DDD is an acceptable lynch, better than me, at this point. I hate lynching yet ANOTHER lurker, but I may have defended him too strongly, enabling him to lurk more. I'd MUCH rather lynch Spyrex or Sens.


But seriously, before you lynch me, think about what you'll learn when I flip town. It won't be a whole lot. You'll get something from this run-up to my lynch, but probably not enough to get a scum.



Notice how scared Spyrex was to vote me, even when I became the leading wagon?

[GIEFF]

Alex, you see nothing wrong with Spyrex putting KMD at L-1 immediately after complaining that DDD hopped on the wagon?

[GIEFF]

Vi. Please vote Spyrex.

[GIEFF]

Pretty please?

[GIEFF]

I still really really don't like Sens' claim that he wasn't afraid of being night-killed, even before he knew what Cephrir would flip. I don't think we should give him so much credit for his AtE considering similar outbursts have given other people town-points in this game before he did it.


Just info for you guys for tomorrow. In case I get lynched. Or night-killed.

[GIEFF]

Yes chainlynching, but also distancing himself from his own vote, pretending it wasn't his responsibility.

[GIEFF]

If Spyrex were town, he would not be so confident I am scum that he would risk the entire game on it. We lynch two townies, and we're probably done for.

[GIEFF]

I find it remarkable that I am at L-1 without anybody having really made a case on me.


To the townies on my wagon: do you think that scum is ever run up to L-1 so quickly just for a self-voting gambit?

[GIEFF]

but at this point I'm only too happy to oblige him in his quest to get himself lynched.

Unvote; Vote: GIEFF

I am no longer self-voting. Why are you still voting me, DDD? Are you really basing this entire day's lynch decision on one self-vote? Is that self-vote scummier than Spyrex putting KMD at L-1? Should I be surprised if you don't make it back to the thread in time to answer this?


--------

KMD, I don't want to get dragged back into a camn-quote-war.

But are you really arguing that tying your vote to a player you find scummy and self-voting is PRO-TOWN?

Good lord I almost hope camn is the lynch so tomorrow you get the hang.

What is the SCUM BENEFIT for any of those actions? Putting yourself in the spotlight in a negative fashion in a mountainous game?

I thought scum didn't like to put themselves in the spotlight in a negative fashion? Why is it pro-town for Benmage and camn to self-vote, but scummy for me to do so? My self-vote was able to demonstrate a LOT of scumminess (especially from you and Vi), making it better for the town than either of Benmage or camn's self-votes.

Yea you're getting night killed I like adding that on like you're getting killed tonight.

Why? If we lynch scum-spy, don't you think your buddies would kill me tonight?


----------

jammer has at least tried to make a case on me, and I can genuinely believe he finds me scummy. I do think he is quite likely to be spy's buddy - I said he probably wasn't his buddy because I wanted to live through the night if spyrex flipped scum, but if I am lynched right now, I want that connection to be looked at further.


--------

SpyreX. Deadline is approaching very quickly, and both of the people you have been calling scum all day have one vote on them (not including your own). My vote is yours. Use it wisely. Be prepared to explain your decision and accept responsibility for the outcome.

And Vi is just tying his vote to Spyrex's, trying to remove him of all responsibility for where it lands. Very, very anti-town play.



Vi, please think for yourself - which of us is scummier?


----------


I think my town-flip will give you guys a lot of information, and this game might very well be saved from it. Also, if Spyrex is town, it will be very difficult for me to shake a lynch tomorrow, and losing two townies would be catastrophic. So my lynch isn't horrible, but I urge the townies on my wagon to really ask yourself if you think I'm scummier than Spyrex.

[GIEFF]

Who do you think is scum on your wagon Gieff?

Spyrex.

And if Vi remains there, he will have a lot of explaining to do for simply tying his vote to a player he has claimed to find scummy. And for informing the town that there are ONLY two lynch options, when Spyrex is very clearly also a possibility. Especially ironic coupled with Vi's claim that this wagon will be scum-controlled.


And as I mentioned before, Sensfan STILL has not been able to explain why he did not worry about being nightkilled before he knew Cephrir's alignment. I should think that a player who quickhammers scum would be quite worried about dying that night. His massive AtE coincided well with what I thought was a pretty damning slip he made. And he has been absolutely no help in hunting scum this game.

[GIEFF]

And DDD has been quite scummy, as all of you mentioned. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't defended him so strongly. The mistake I made in the table made me feel responsible for Benmage voting DDD, and I didn't someone getting lynched over an error I made. That plus me being tired of lynching people for lurking instead of lynching them for doing scummy things.

[GIEFF]

If I get lynched, do NOT just blindly lynch Spyrex. Vi telling Spyrex that he is responsible for wherever Vi's vote ends up, and both of them on a townie's L-1 wagon stinks of yet more chain-lynching. Do not let Vi say "Spyrex lynched GIEFF" tomorrow. Spyrex's suspicion toward me today is fabricated and OMGUS-y, but Vi should remain just as culpable.

[GIEFF]

Nope.

[GIEFF]

Aside from that, I have repeatedly said that YOU are my preferred lynch at deadline.

Not until my self-vote.


And if you're really so happy with your GIEFF vote, why go through all the shenanigans of trying your vote to Spyrex's?

[GIEFF]

Any other stance is delusional and irresponsible at best.

This is obvoiusly grandstanding. Delusional and irresponsible? You are saying "My vote is yours spyrex - do with it what you will." How is that not you distancing yourself from that vote?



It really sucks that a big part of the reason I will likely be lynched is external to this game.

[GIEFF]

I think it's 4 hours, alex.

[GIEFF]

I have no idea what you're talking about, Spyrex, or why I should hang.

I am not just flinging accusations around to see what sticks. I am flinging accusations around because it gives me the best chance of catching scum.

My case on Spyrex is not poor.

I would lynch Sensfan.

[GIEFF]

His whole I killed camn to rub it in when he immediately came off apologetic and I haven't said a word about that... well, ever.

Thats not just padding its 100% made up.

You are speaking as if I said it as fact. I did not. I simply noted that it would at least make some sense, because the camn-kill was pretty surprising.




Spy-town would NOT be so certain I am scum.

[GIEFF]

I really hate this game.

[GIEFF]

Vi pushed a bit too hard here. He went from thinking I am town to voting me and adamantly pushing my lynch very quickly.

[GIEFF]

DDD hasn't mentioned me AT ALL recently, votes me simply for the self-vote, and then disappears until the lynch goes through.


Maybe lynch him before sens. I don't know. I do see why Vi could suddenly think I am scum, but his play has been incredibly scummy the last 5-10 pages or so.

[GIEFF]

Spy-town would NOT be so certain I am scum.

Evidence is where?

You said so yourself. Everybody looks scummy in this game. I'm not all that confident about my scum-reads. Why should Spyrex be? Are you? How confident are you that I am scum?

[GIEFF]

Vi, your ego is getting in your way here, if you are town.

[GIEFF]

I am confident enough that you are scum to lynch you over SpyreX. That's all that matters.

No, it isn't. If you are not confident, shouldn't you be questioning why Spyrex is? If I die, I don't want the town just to blindly lynch Spyrex. I'm really worried that Spyrex may be town, and then we'd probably be two townies down. Why isn't Spyrex worried about that?


The past tense because I'm assuming I will be lynched. I am speaking to the town tomorrow here, not to you. Your ego won't allow you to change your vote.

[GIEFF]

And your case isn't poor? Why didn't you discuss it if it wasn't? Instead, you went "those don't matter, its the L-1 vote." and that mantra pushed this all the way to here.

As I"ve said more than once: the bulk of my case is your incredibly scummy KMD vote. In order to convince others to vote you, I went back through your iso and picked out all the extra scummy things you've done. Do you think the case would be stronger if I hadn't done this?

[GIEFF]

Yes, I'm confident in this read. Just like I'm confident about the mages. And DDD.

Being wrong about a town-tell is one thing.

But you claim to be SO confident that I am scum that you are willing to kill yourself to "prove" it.


So please, do it.

[GIEFF]

I have not at all pretended the case didn't matter. I don't want to get dragged into a discussion on every point, as the main thrust of my case is the KMD vote.

You've already succeeded in distracting from that point by focusing on the rest - perhaps I shouldn't have done it at all.



I have no idea what you mean by holding it. I ripped nothing from context. There is nothing wrong with conjecture - it's impossible to scumhunt without it.

[GIEFF]

Aaaaaaand if you're worried about SpyreX being Town, why are you doing everything you can to get people on his wagon? Right down to 2881 where you're urging a self-hammer. If you're both Town, wouldn't that be spelling the very disaster you claim to be worried about?

I think he is the best lynch. I am not more than 60 or 70% sure he's scum, though. So of course I am worried about him being town.


If we're both town, then yes it would spell the same disaster. But if he is scum, then I at least have the chance of killing a scum today rather than me getting lynched without that chance.

[GIEFF]

Also, thanks for acknowledging that it's ego and not scum motivation.

And thanks for acknowledging that your ego is affecting the quality of your play.