Mafia 102: No-Frills Game Thread(Town wins!)

[crypto]

I don't think there's nothing wrong with using the threat of a policy lynch to pressure a player.

dotdotdot.
Did you mean, "I don't think there's

anything

wrong with using the threat of a policy lynch to pressure a player." ?

Yup. God forbid I make a typo for a whole. Don't you mean "Dot-dot-dot"? Also, get rid of the period before the quotation marks.

[crypto]

Fuck damn it, I made another mistake.

[crypto]

Vote: muh316.

[crypto]

Hypocrite.

[crypto]

Crypto. Your looking like a scum. All this pushing for a lynch thing. It seems as if you know everybodys roles. A clear scum tell.

Not a clear scum tell. Not a scum tell at all. If anything, aggressiveness is most likely to be town play, but it's clearly nothing more than a null tell.

Muh wagons, exhibit B.

[crypto]

What an awful wagon.

Sando's last post strikes me as incredibly pro-town. Crypto's tunneling is making me vote: Crypto. BTW, crypto, muh has a very valid point.

Muh's vote isn't worth jack, and it's even more incredibly stupid coming from you because you've played with me before. I tunneled on GreenDude and Benmage

hard

for much/most of Mini 842. In Mini 827, I tunneled way harder than that on ConfidAnon and CoCo. In Newbie 805, I tunneled very hard on Excedrin. In Newbie 777, I tunneled on Billssabresyanks, Johnny Rotten, and AshMC1984.

Wait, oh yeah, I was town in all of those games. D'oh.

Regarding your two reasons for unvoting Staple, I don't think Staple is scummy, but they're horrible as well. Why the hell is it scummy to whine about playing but not to replace out? Where is your evidence for that?

WarWound's "Oh, I don't know what I'll do with my life if Pomegranate flips town!" bawling was utterly scummy, gut-wise, and the only thing you can say in his favor is that he's new to Mafia. Which is great, but then why is he spewing bullshit like "Today is a new day and you can't lynch me for yesterday!"—especially when he follows up on it with (SURPRISE!) more obscene active lurking?

All that said, I'm back to neutral about WW based on my Staple reread, but saying WW hasn't acted scummy is absurd and you know it.

WW is the perfect scapegoat. Some might say it's good to cut off some fat, but the fact is we don't need to.

You're starting to sound like SerialClergyman. Wait, no, that can't—

yyeeaaagggh

!

Stop trying to lynch the VI and look for scum.

Are you blind?

---

And back to your tunneling screed:

Vote: Staple

I think that quote speaks for itself. He's either a scum that cracked REALLY easily (99%) or a townie who obviously won't be of any help (1%). No lynching would be stupid with scum this obvious.

lol nice percentages bud

....OK let's do it then. Does anyone have any reasons that they aren't voting Staple besides an early bandwagon?

Sorry for not posting, I was unexpectadley V/LA since Friday night.

Here is my rationale behind voting Staple. There are two possibilities; he's either town or scum. It is also fairly clear that he doesn't want to play anymore based on his posts. I feel that if he were town and didn't want to play anymore, he would just replace out. But he could be scum acting like he doesn't want to play anymore, saying he's town and whatnot, trying to AtE and test us (by saying "go ahead lynch me). He is a brand new player, and I'd think AtE and "lynch me so I can prove I'm town" would be a very appealing strategies for newbie scum. Yes, muh is looking pretty bad, and if Staple flips town, I'll definetely be voting muh tomorrow. But because of what I just said, I'm really liking my Staple vote right now. If he were a townie acting this way, he would just replace out.

And fine I'll admit it....no lynch was a bad idea, you win charter.

You made a very good argument for own lynch. Yes, what I put in quotation marks is exaggeration. There's a difference between putting something in quotation marks and in quote tags; putting it in quotation marks is meant to emphasize certain points you want to shine through, while quote tags are meant to be exact quotes.

I never said that

you said

you didn't want to play anymore, I said it was fairly clear from your posts that you didn't.

Your argument for your lynch is that you're inactive, have been playing scummy, and drag the town down. Your argument against it is "I'm town". You're not preaching the opposite, you're making a footnote about the opposite. I will admit, "lynch me so I can prove I'm town" has a different ring than I intended, but it was meant to emphasize the fact that your arguments against your own lynch are so small that they're insignifigant.

ALL of them are good reasons when taken in combination. Add to that the OMGUS vote on me, and I see a strategy/playstyle much more likely to be used by scum than town. btw, when I said he could be scum or town, I think it was pretty clear that I didn't mean it was a 50/50 chance. I think he's scum.

Why is lynching someone because they don't want to play a bad idea? Because if he was a townie who truly didn't want to play, he'd replace out. If he's scum using that as a strategy, which he probably is because he has not replaced out, he'd stay in and tell us to lynch him using reverse psychology (if I tell them to lynch me, they won't). You can't honestly tell me that the two posts I pointed out aren't scummy.

When I said he could be either town or scum, I was trying to get across the 2nd sentence of this post.

Using AtE is suspicious because it means he has no other arguments besides "I'm town guysssss." Notice how he completely stopped suspecting X_~ (actively, at least) and started suspecting me as soon as I got into this with him. That's OMGUS if I've ever seen it.

As far as being new goes, I can't really defend that point anymore since he said (keyword, said) he isn't new. I originally meant a newbie scum would be prone to use AtE and reverse psychology.

Staple Post-by-Post Analysis

0-1: Confirming posts.
2: Attacks X for being unhelpful, but admits he has been too. Says that everything is already resolved everytime he logs in. Says anyone who supports no lynch is suspicious.
3: Makes a valid argument against no lynching.
4: Quotes le_chat and corrects his accusation, points out that le_chat did the exact same thing he (falsely) accused staple of doing.
5: Displays a poor understanding of the RVS.
6-7: Talking about how he'll post thoughts soon.
8: Says he is unable to post thoughts, and goes on an "I'm town, I'm town"-type panic attack despite having only 2 votes on him.
9: Says that he guesses we're correct in lynching him, and that he's dragging the game down because of his inactivity and scumminess. Says we don't lose much by lynching him, then does a COMPLETE 180° and says we shouldn't lynch him because he's town. Then attacks mask_man for basically the same things he just accused himself of (minus the inactive part).
10: Says crypto seems paranoid, and says everything he says is true. This includes both him saying he's a townie AND saying that he's a good vote.
11: Says he's a vanilla (I think), then he says he must be the worst scum ever. No, I'm not using that last part as a reason.
12: Says I misquoted him and OMGUS-votes me.
13: Claims he isn't new to Mafia, just this site. Then says he wouldn't find a replacement if he didn't want to play, but says that doesn't matter because he does.

I will admit Staple's first few posts don't come across as very scummy (I know I said in my PBPA before they did, but I think I was a little OMGUS-y from the no lynch thing), but ever since that they've had scum written all over them. How the hell do you not find him scummy? Defend your position with more than "the bandwagon seems scum-driven".

Everything since his 8th post has reeked of scumminess.

....he's also right. He has been playing scummy. How is that an awful reason to vote someone?

I refuse to consider he's town until he stops "screwing up". He has yet to do ANYTHING to defend himself well. You, on the other hand, seem to do nothing but defend for him.

@ Staple: I wouldn't say I'm not giving you a chance. Every new post of yours is another chance. If you want to change my mind, improve your play.

I have to say, I'm pretty amazed at the amount of people who are letting Staple's play go. I can see how the Staple wagon seems oppurtunistic; he's really the first to appear overtly scummy, and if he is town, I wouldn't be surprised if scum are jumping on it right now. But the point is that just because some people aren't providing the most unique analysis for their votes does NOT mean Staple's scumminess goes away. The fact of tha matter is that Staple's scumminess doesn't extend very far beyond what I've already accused him of. Ever since his vote on me, he's been pretty much coasting, with charter doing most of his talking for him, which means everyone who subsequently voted for him doesn't have any new insights. Of course their reasons are going to be the same if Staple doesn't bring anything new to the table

Staple has pretty much been pushed into the background even when the discussion is about him. I'm pretty sure he could go without posting for awhile simply because the heat has shifted to the people on his wagon. I doubt any of the people voting me right now can honestly say that Staple's play has made him look town. Are you guys even somewhat suspicious of him?

Now, having said all that, he has added one thing since his vote, which was a short paragraph on charter. I'm finding it pretty interesting upon re-reading it, and it's almost making me start to rethink this whole thing. There are two things that paragraph says to me. Either:

1. Staple and charter are scumbuddies, and Staple is getting nervous about charter's defense of him, and is now trying to distance himself; or
2. charter-scum is trying to defend Staple-town in order to appear clean if Staple flips town.

Don't take this as me discounting the possibility of charter being town; those were the two things the quote said to me, not the two possibilities for this game. It could very well be Staple-scum trying to shift attention onto charter. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what it is. But it is interesting nonetheless.

For the record, I don't think defending someone is a scumtell by itself. I think if you really believe something, you shuold express it. This is why I'm still finding charter to be town.

Look at me; I'm so magnanimous!

Wat.

[crypto]

And now for the kicker, which deserves separation from the quote wall. Watch this, guys:

Crypto. Your looking like a scum.

All this pushing for a lynch thing.

It seems as if you know everybodys roles.

A clear scum tell.

BTW, crypto, muh has a very valid point.

Was I pushing for his lynch? Yes, that's what players do in this game when they believe someone is scum. It's also what scum do when they are trying to cause a mislynch;

the fact that I pushed for Staple's lynch is a null tell.

Notice my unvote of him. This was in part because he was replaced, and also in part because he went against one of my arguments about him (that being he finally asked for a replacement). I was not going for the easy target, I was going for the scummy player.

Ta-da!

Unvote: muh316. Vote: bigmc109.

Fucking yes, I'm in

ad hom

mode now.

[crypto]

Lurk more, Mask Man.

[crypto]

Unvote: bigmc109. Vote: hiphop.

[crypto]

Unvote: hiphop.

Vote: bigmc109.

Muh's vote is titanically stupid. He is essentially claiming that any player who leads what turns out to be a mis-lynch is scum. That incriminates every damn player on Mafia Scum at some point or another. Unfathomably horrible logic. But Muh's scumminess is tapered by his general newb/VI play.

BMC is vastly more scummy. Apparently your eyes failed to register the meta evidence—and by evidence I don't mean argument; I mean

evidence

—that his vote on me is a load of bullshit, or the wall of quotes that serves as evidence—and, again, by evidence I mean

evidence

—of sharp contradictions in his logic: "Oh, when I do push for a lynch, it's a null tell, but Muh's right—when Crypto does it, it's an epic scum tell."

Damn right I'm overreacting after mass lurking, a mis-lynch, and hysterically idiotic votes. I get frustrated when people repeatedly don't use their brains. That you're voting me because of my attitude over crystal-clear evidence against BMC is sickening.

Anyone with a game or two of experience knows townies are liable to overreact, but don't fucking misconstrue my votes as such. Admittedly, I'm embarrassed you didn't see through the apparent OMGUS of my Muh vote; I thought it would be rather obvious that I was actually making a point about the pathetic case he made. As for BMC, once again if you make the effort to (gasp!)

read

my post it would become exceedingly transparent that I was in fact proving BMC's case contradictory and opportunistic. I'm really terribly sorry for such iconoclastic play; I should have realized that exposing other players' bullshit is anathema in this particular game. Damn me.

[crypto]

Also, Hiphop, smooth bandwagon.

when i said today is a new day, i didnt mean excuse yesterday, or did I? or maybe you just shoving words down my throat? anyways i guess I will look into day 1 and come up with something to appease you o mighty bipolar overlord

Still waiting.

[crypto]

Will probably be on V/LA this weekend.

Nice bandwagon, WarWound. Funny that you're only now jumping over to BMC, instead of doing so when I actually made the fucking case.

[crypto]

Hiphop, why Muh instead of BMC?

[crypto]

Wow, Muh. Logic fail. Plus a heavy dose of hypocrisy. You wagoned all the way through day 1. You can't say my urgency is scummy and also say that yours is not.

[crypto]

This is ridiculous. The Pom wagon had a strong supporting argument, the closest you'll get to evidence on day 1 in most games. If I weren't on a jihad against BMC I'd vote for you right now. Your vote for me is incredibly weak by comparison to the cases on Staple, BMC, Pomegranate, and even X_~ and WarWound. Accusing me of knowing everyone's alignment is massively idiotic and you know it. There's no evidence at all. You want evidence, you can look at my BMC case. That's evidence that BMC is certainly engaged in a contradiction and very probably scum.

[crypto]

Your pushing crypto's lynch for pushing other people's lynch.

you see i already explained that I did it just to prove that when crypto does it he never gets attacked but when I do it everyone attacks me

Your reasons are awful or nonexistent. Mine may be misguided but at least they have some substance to them.

[crypto]

(Crickets.)

[crypto]

Agreeing with mod; I'm bored.

Unvote. Vote: muh316.

I'm at the point where I'm willing to just see where a wagon takes us. We haven't seen enough pressure/reactions this game, in that sense. All the lurking and lack of concentrated scum hunting is going to result in a loss for the town.

[crypto]

My mistake, Hiphop; I forgot about the count.

Unvote: muh 316. Vote: bigmc109.

Waiting for the Empking revelation.

Sando doesn't get it.

[crypto]

Charter, why are you not voting for me?

[crypto]

Why do you have a town/non-scum read on me?

[crypto]

I feel like you've been playing this game quite passively, except for the end of day 1.

[crypto]

In non-BMC news, Trumpet should be lynched. Not only does he seem NOT to lurk when replacing in (meta looks like he's always rather prompt with his read-throughs), but he just tried to give himself a free pass to lurk his way to LYLO.

[crypto]

I am uneasy with someone trying to lead the town and I get the feeling that that is what Crypto has been doing.

This gets brought up in every or almost every game I play, for what it's worth.

[crypto]

This game is broken. Simply not going to end in the foreseeable future. The number of lurkers is just devastating.

I am uneasy with someone trying to lead the town and I get the feeling that that is what Crypto has been doing.

This gets brought up in every or almost every game I play, for what it's worth.

Example?

Are you really that lazy? Crypto.

*On that note, so is Crypto's BW on Pom a null-tell by itself, though his unprovoked defense at the beginning of D2 does make it seem scummier to me.

No, I'm frustrated at how many mis-lynches I've been involved with lately.

[crypto]

I'm admittedly worried about that, Pyro. WW in LYLO spells a loss for the town.

[crypto]

Unvote: bigmc109. Vote: Kaiveran.

Choo-choo

lurker!

[crypto]

I'm tired of cursory PBPAs. Not enough analysis.

[crypto]

Kai, you reiterated lurking issues, softly FOSed Charter, remained neutral about Empking, and FOSed Trumpet.

Meh. I don't know where I was going with that.

I have to disagree somewhat. He hasn't been a very dense poster or a mafia-hunting machine, but I don't see him just getting by with the minimum of activity, and I fail to recall any post of his that didn't have substance.

I was poking around with that issue because Charter's play here is vastly different from his play in one of my other ongoing games. Came up empty-handed.

Unvote: Kaiveran. Vote: bigmc109.

I don't like how Charter is arguing with Peanutman, but it's mostly just because I think it's a shabby way to deal with a new guy, especially a new guy who blasted through the entire thread in a day or two. I find Charter's criticisms of Peanut's neutrality to be somewhat hypocritical.

Vote Kaiveran for lurking, but really don't give him a reason to post.

This is the real bad part, though. You don't need to give lurkers/MIAs a reason to post. Everyone knows this.

[crypto]

Unvote: bigmc109. Vote: Trumpet of Doom.

Wheeeee.

[crypto]

Actually, the first half makes up for it somewhat.

Unvote: Trumpet of Doom.

(Pukes out of votesickness.)

[crypto]

Hardy-har.

Vote: bigmc109.

[crypto]

Unvote.

Not letting lurking VI hammer.

[crypto]

I don't like Sando's last post. Pursuing Kai is lame, boring, lazy, etc., considering he was (a) so pro-town early on and (b) in favor of my lynch earlier today. With regard to (b): going after a chronic lurker for her catchup post (big deal, seriously) shortly after being so audacious as to go after me, the king of activity spam, doesn't seem right.

If BMC is scum, Sando is his buddy. Not only did Sando side with BMC during the BMC/SC/Staple/Charter debate, but SerialClergyman originally felt like something was up with Sando ... which may have been cause for a night kill before SC could muster his gut read into Sando lynch material. Sort of too obvious, but the mafia does sometimes go for the too-obvious night kill for WIFOM's sake.

[crypto]

Town reads who've disagreed with me or argued against me: Charter, SerialClergyman, Hiphop, Empking, Pyromaniac, Peanutman, WarWound (tentatively).

DENIED

[crypto]

Haha. Good. Thanks for returning to me.

Useless players are not always scum. You know it. All you have to do is look at this game.

I believe I've given plenty of reads, but I'm truly, deeply sorry for being unable to update my reads. You see, I'm not all that good at reading lurkers. Also, if you knew how to digest written English you'd realize the post directly above yours just listed a shit ton of reads. So screw off.

It's stupid to post all your reads. It makes you one-dimensional, let's the mafia know where you're going, and gives the mafia great night kill choices.

Town: charter, hiphop, Empking, Pyromaniac, Peanutman, WarWound, malpascp
Null: mask man, Sando, Kaiveran, muh316
Scum: bigmc109, Trumpet of Doom

Now you do the same thing. Ready, go.

[crypto]

Completely unjustified reads that are 100% useless for town, congrats.

I am not justifying every single read. I am not revealing my reasoning for every single player. Sorry. That's a waste of time. I and the rest of the town only need to focus on players in the running for a lynch.

I still want you to give YOUR reads. And since you think they all need to be justified, I want you to do so. Go.

[crypto]

Mask goes back in the town column.

Also, Mask, I wanted WW lynched

primarily

because I thought Staple (not so much WW) was scummy. When I reread Staple, I realized he wasn't as scummy as I'd thought. WW was a village idiot, but remember that being a village idiot doesn't mean you aren't scum.

Sando, you demanded reads from me, even though I've been one of the most useful players in the game. I gave them to you. Then you whined that I hadn't given reasons, which is silly because you didn't ask them in the first place and because I don't need to give reasons for all my damn reads. I only need to give reasons for people I want lynched—BMC and Trumpet, to a lesser extent, Muh. I've given those reasons (via walls-of-text in the case of BMC). Neither of us have that bad a memory. You are attacking me for a false reason. Do not fuck with me.

I gave reasons for my vote on you, I gave reasons for my vote on Kai, and I stated reasons that I was finding Trumpet scummy. To suggest that I haven't been providing thought out reads is utterly ludicrous, and you're just starting to sound stupid.

Your reading comprehension sucks. I didn't ask you to restate reads with reasons; I asked you for reads the way I'd done them, only with reasons since that's what you think matters. If you really don't think giving reasons for every read matters—as you now assert—then just fucking post some reads the way I did. Make the same lists as I did, or something similar. Again, I've already justified BMC, Muh, and Trumpet. Briefly, I justified my flip-flop on Staple/WW.

You're attacking anyone that even looks at you, you OMGUS vote everybody that votes you, and you utterly refuse to provide any meaningful discussion, instead you'd prefer to act like a complete idiot and hide behind the fact that since you're always an idiot who plays anti-town, we shouldn't vote you.

Bullshit. Peanut looked at me. I didn't attack him. Mask looked at me. I didn't attack him. And so on. You seem lost. Go back and reread day 1. Go back and reread my BMC case. I have provided plenty of meaningful conversation. Ease off the fucking

ad hominem

, or at least augment it with arguments that aren't completely demented.

I for one, am calling you on it, my vote will be on you till you actually start contributing something worthwhile. Until then you're utterly useless and actively stifling conversation.

That's a huge, simmering pile of bullshit. Nothing I've has frozen discussion.

This is a horrible case coming from a player who's obviously more competent than Muh, WW, etc. That reeks of ulterior motives.

Hand of Suspicion: Sando.

Oh, wait, pointing out how horrible a case is must be OMGUS. Shit. He's right, guys.

[crypto]

2 of which were pure OMGUS (you voted for the person who had literally just voted you with no reasoning given)

I was making a point of how blatantly pointless/irrational/scummy/useless Muh's vote was.

Care to tell me how you WEREN'T asking for my reads + reasons?

Reading comprehension is not your strong point, is it? Again, unlike you I am not so blind or thickheaded as to demand you to repeat the reads you just posted about me, Trumpet, whoever. I want you to give your reads on everyone, just like I did when you demanded mine. Should be relatively straightforward. I tacked on the "justified" clause because if you want me to justify mine, you must also justify yours.

[crypto]

And again:

You have not been in any way useful

That is an outright false statement. Reread day 1. Reread my day 2 BMC case.

[crypto]

You asked me for my reads, plural, I had given you 3, with reasonings, just today. Asking for someones reads doesn't mean you've asked for reads on every single player in the game. I don't give reads I can't justify, because they are completely fucking useless without any justification.

Assumptions swing either way. Your reads are not useless without spoken justification. But your refusal to give more than three at this stage in the game is anti-information and therefore anti-town.

I make cases, today for instance I've made a case on you, Kai and I've called Trumpet on some of the things they've done that I find scummy.

Your cases on both me and Kaiveran are both awful and they fly in the face of your pro-town day 1 play.

All of your votes are like this.

Another flat-out lie.

Vote: Sando

until BMC shows up. I can't believe this is happening. Sando has done a complete 180 in his behavior. I don't even know.

[crypto]

Merely insulting me, when I'm right, isn't going to work dude.

You're wrong. In every way. As for insults, you're also guilty of this—"you'd prefer to act like a complete idiot and hide behind the fact that since you're always an idiot who plays anti-town," which is also a misrepresentation of what I said, by the way—so lay off the hypocrisy.

[crypto]

Good to know you've locked in on me, although past experience says I'll have your vote for all of 2 minutes.

Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:19 pm

I read half your post and I'm done. I will not read or answer your posts until night 3.

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 975):

bigmc109 - 6(charter, WarWound, Kaiveran, hiphop, Pyromaniac, Empking)
crypto - 3(muh316, bigmc109, Sando)
Kaiveran - 1(peanutman)
muh316 - 1(mask man)
Sando - 1(crypto)

Not Voting:Trumpet of Doom, malpascp

It takes 8 to lynch, 6 at deadline.

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

For the record, I have no problem with ad hom; I use it plenty.

Again, Hiphop, WW is going in the town basket (for now) because Staple wasn't even close as scummy as I originally thought him to be.

[crypto]

We're waiting for BMC to come back and claim anything other than cop or jailkeeper. Then we dangle him with a sturdy necktie, etc.

[crypto]

I love the Spanish Inquisition shorts so much.

So my question to you, crypto, is whether his claim makes a bit of difference to whether you want to lynch him.

Meh, I always feel weird lynching people who just throw down their guns and claim vanilla townie, but there are so many in this setup that wouldn't deter me. As for a power role, it's a matter of whether or not we think it's a good idea to go on with counterclaims and such. I don't know, really; I'll have to see how it plays out ... if BMC ever returns to this game.

[crypto]

Oh, boy. That put BMC at L–1. Now Malpascp has the hammer again. (Covers eyes.)

I forgot about BMC's last post before he disappeared, though. That's strange. He's either MIA, or he's flaked.

Also, this is going to sound crazy (don't think I mentioned it before), but a long time ago, during day 1 of this game, BMC buttered me up in the Playstyle thread in Mafia Discussion. And what he had to say completely contradicted his analysis of me in the scum QuickTopic for Mini 842, which basically said I was a good player not to kill on night 1 because my style tended to cause confusion. So it seems like he was trying to appeal to my emotion and get me on his side in this game, which I can't fathom a townie would do. I think that's a pretty clear scum tell. But again, I'm sure some people will it's just loopy.

So I'm ready to hammer here. Say the word, guys.

[crypto]

Crypto, your play has changed drastically since our last game. Your attitude is the same, but man did you get a lot less analytical.

I can't analyze lurkers (70%) and I've always struggled with differentiating between idiot town and idiot scum (20%). The quantity (and quality) of analysis you've made, though—now that blows everyone else's out of the water.

And no, I won't be claiming.

Okay.

Unvote: Sando. Vote: bigmc109.

Choo-choo?

[crypto]

Extremely convenient timing by BMC, by the way. I have no idea what's up with that, or if it was just a total coincidence..

[crypto]

LOL, BMC-OBV-SCUM OUTS HIS BUDDIES.

Also, minis are empirically more fun than larges, unless the large is stacked with awesome players.

[crypto]

Mask, he claimed scum.

[crypto]

And by the way, you-know-who, thanks for the votes. As if it wasn't stacked enough.....back to minis for me I guess....

[crypto]

Well, they can be the shit. This game is certainly at the bottom of the totem pole for its lurkers. Not a good representative. I still prefer minis in general, though.

Guys, in case I die tonight, please be smart and investigate the people on BMC's wagon.

Aaand I just realized he might've been WIFOMing. FFS.

[crypto]

If he isn't WIFOMing, Kai (90%) and Emp (75%) look likely.

[crypto]

Was the Playstyle thread sneakiness strategic, BMC?

[crypto]

Darn, I was hoping you would say yes and confirm me as town. I'd analyze you but then I'd get accused of being high on attention for replying twice in a couple of pages.

[crypto]

Argh. Someone switch to BMC. He claimed scum, TLDR ...

[crypto]

More WIFOM. Can you please self-hammer? I'm getting antsy.

[crypto]

CHOO CHOOOOO

[crypto]

I was joking, muh.

Sando still insists that I was voting for no reason. I will not explain this again. It should have been relatively simple.

(Puts him back on mute.)

Charter, I agree Peanut's last post is weird, but do you think some of it might be due to his relatively recent entrance?

I'm wary of muh316 being a massive village idiot, but he would be a good fallback today if we have no one else to vote for. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a policy lynch on him right now. He's impossible for me to read.

[crypto]

Actually, Sando's last post is scummy, so he won't be on mute.

Ideal lynches:

muh316
Sando
Kaiveran
Trumpet of Doom

[crypto]

Oh, time for Kreriov to go on another rabid crypto-scum jihad.

[crypto]

Actually, Kreriov, my remark was more due to how you're relying on childish wiki-type arguments to get my lynch. Go back and reread. And get off your fucking hypocritical soapbox. You're being as aggressive as I am.

You look 100% town, though, so whatever.

[crypto]

Sando, you did not fucking know that Pom was a townie before her flip. She was the scummiest person in the game. Feel free to rant against me all you want, but your abuse of 20/20 hindsight is pathetically weak.

[crypto]

Oh, and Kreriov, get your fucking facts straight. I'm pretty sure I was going after Pomegranate before the BMC wagon gained any momentum whatsoever.

[crypto]

English, please.

[crypto]

Okay, I'm going to reread and see if I can find anything from BMC's iso. For now, Inquisition's going in the town list for BMC's hardcore attacks on Staple (although Staple had already been gravitating in that direction in any case).

[crypto]

Lynches I'd be good with based on previous reads and BMC's iso.

Trumpet of Doom
Kaiveran
Sando
muh316
Pyromaniac
peanutman

Organized in vague order of preference.

Vote: Trumpet of Doom.

[crypto]

bullshit

[crypto]

Why not lynch Trumpet?

[crypto]

Good Lord, Kreriov, are you really that fragile? I've said nothing seriously offensive. Stop turning a game into your personal self-righteousness playground.

[crypto]

They're offensive to a degree, but I don't appreciate Kreriov's approach.

Preview edit: Okay, yeah, my snide initial comment was wholly unnecessary, though I really don't see how that sort of stuff is

offensive

. Anyway, I'll tie my tongue from here on out, because this game can't afford any more replacements, especially one for a silly reason like this.

[crypto]

Hi, people. Briefly:

Crypto- If you had to choose between Sando and muh for a lynch, who would it be? Also if Trumpet is replaced, will you attack his replacement from his first post?

I don't know what I'd do about a Trumpet replacement. I don't like immediate pressure as I feel like it discourages activity. For what it's worth.

As for Sando/muh316, I'd lynch Sando. Bigmc109's statement that he'd be going after muh if Staple flipped town makes muh very likely to be town. I think bigmc brought up that whole line of thought because he knew Staple would flip town—i.e., Staple wasn't a scum buddy of bigmc. And it would be stupid to automatically damn a teammate like that right off the bat. The mafia needs to be more conservative than usual about busing in this game because it's more outnumbered than in most setups.

you should automatically think that person really has no point and has to curse to try and make it seem like a stronger argument

That's so absurd it's not even funny. I have a foul mouth; therefore my argument sucks or is nonexistent? Go reread 827. You obviously failed to pay sufficient attention the first time around. I pinned a number of scum that game. Get off your soapbox. We're playing a game.

[crypto]

Sigh.

[crypto]

No, muh, you were not what I was sighing about. I appreciate it.

I'd still rather lynch Trumpet than anyone else. Sando could be a townie; he's enthusiastic enough.

[crypto]

Wait, what the hell?

Pyro, why did you vote for muh316?

[crypto]

@Sando

I've also said that I find BigMC and Muh scum, just haven't stated that today.

Where did you say this during day 1?

Oh, and Kreriov, I defended myself against Sando adequately. His attacks were redundant. Again, off the soapbox. You are being at least as condescending as I am being "offensive."

[crypto]

I believe Sando is now at L–1. I was going to wait a little, but I'm in

a bloodthirsty

an impatient mood, so I'll hammer if you guys (especially charter) really want it right now.

Scroll past the second line break for why Sando is scum. (The first half of this post is mostly rebuttal to his latest garbage argument.)

(I will also point out that a CC fight right now undeniably favors the town, which makes my belief in muh's claim that much stronger.)

Yup. Scum already have their backs against the wall. We can afford to mislynch one claim and then drill the other the next day.

---

Sando, bigmc's trepidation about a scummy player simply being a newbie has nothing to do with his overall decisiveness in this game. I went over that a long time ago. My assertion that he was being cautious about his read of A SINGLE PLAYER does not contradict my assertion that he was IN GENERAL playing more decisively than in another game. Stop raising dead points that have already been proven wrong. It's making you look less like a stubborn townie and more like desperate scum. I did have a town read on bigmc for most of day 1, though toward the end it fell back to a null read. It became clear after BMC opportunistically attacked me on day 2 that he was scum, because his arguments were in clear contradiction to earlier posts and, IIRC, to his own past experiences. Changing reads is not a scum tell, as you should know by now.

This is a clear scum-slip from crypto. You cannot accuse someone of being scum and then claim that they didn’t know someone was town. Scum know exactly who town is (at least in a single scum team game). The only way that crypto would know that I didn’t know Poms alignment is if crypto is himself scum.

What the hell are you talking about? I have not been accusing you of being scum. Use your brain. Read my rebuttals. Lose your stupid argumentation. I've been clinging to a tentative town read on you for a long freaking time. Your persistent sophism is making it more and more difficult. I said you didn't know Pomegranate's alignment because you were trying to use my mislynch of Pomegranate against me, which is supremely idiotic in the first place because townies mislynch ALL THE TIME. If they didn't, scum would NEVER win. Come on, man.

Can you stop talking to me please? You said you weren’t going to talk to me until the end of D3, and it’s bliss.

If I don't talk to you, you give me crap. If I do talk to you, you give me crap. Make up your mind or replace out or tell the mod to mod-kill me or

something

, please. But yeah, "Bgmc, quite possibly scum, certainly up there" was the only thing you said in favor of him being scum all game, and you spent the rest of day 1 arguing with SerialClergyman over the SC/charter/muh/BMC fiasco. So this one quote looks to me like you basically planted a soft suspicion of BMC for later reference. You gave few or no reasons for BMC being scum, and then you essentially took his side during that debate. Smells like faux scum hunting to me. Oh, and hiphop is right: charter is a blindingly obvious townie.

---

Okay. I'm now leaning scum on Sando. I thought his stubbornness was a town tell, but his arguments are awful, redundant, ignorant, etc. That's not scummy on its own, but ... well, observe the text wall summarizing Sando's play throughout the game. Fun stuff.

Day 1

• Announces suspicion of both
  bigmc109
  and
  muh316
  .
  
• Gives no reason for suspicion of bigmc
  other than a one-line jab in this post.
  But in the same post he partially excuses bigmc by applying the newbie card.
  
  
• Mentions reluctance to lynch bigmc due to bigmc's activity.
  
  
• Votes muh because of muh's lurk-lurk-lurk-wagon-wagon pattern of activity. Note that this is a completely legitimate reason to suspect muh.
  
  
• Sides against SerialClergyman and charter about
  bigmc
  and
  muh
  . Advocates a muh lynch.
  Opposes a bigmc lynch.

The blue obviously pertains to muh, the red and orange to bigmc. The blue supports a muh scum read. The red supports a bigmc scum read. The orange either opposes a bigmc scum read or expresses indecision about bigmc's alignment or expresses reluctance to lynch bigmc – some form of non-bigmc-scum sentiment. Which certainly isn't scummy

on its own

. The catch, reason the wishy-washy bigmc sentiments are scummy, is that Sando gives hardly any reason for suspecting bigmc, and definitely no reason at all for suspecting him to any major degree. He just throws a soft FOS out there. The baseless bigmc suspicion coupled with the actual distaste for a Sando lynch when things get serious (i.e., when the bigmc-scum sentiment gets popular) spells out faux scum hunting on Sando's part, and, again, implies that Sando was simply laying an egg he could hatch (okay, horrible metaphor) if bigmc did get lynched and flipped scum. Sure enough, when that happened, Sando went back and reminded us that he suspected bigmc, even though in reality he hardly suspected him at all.

Night 1

• SerialClergyman is killed. (Obvious statement is necessary, sorry.)
• On day 1, Clergy expressed a sneaking suspicion that Sando was scum, and that suspicion hinged largely on the assumption that bigmc would flip scum. That is to say that Clergy as strongly considering that Sando and bigmc were scum buddies.
  
• I had considered before that either bigmc or Sando might have been scum on the basis that they would want to kill Clergy, a major attacker, but scum tend not to be so blatant with their night kills, and it was possible they were setting bigmc up to be mislynched on day 2. However ...
  
• Bigmc's motivation is now obvious, but Sando's is more cloak-and-dagger: Sando was worried that Clergy, who knows him in real life, was in the middle of figuring him out. Clergy would be intensely dangerous to keep alive because his knowledge of Sando's character is more intimate than ours – it'd be one thing if he had a town or null read on Sando, but a scum read would make it really, really dangerous. It makes even more sense now that bigmc has flipped scum, because that means bigmc and Sando might actually be teammates, and to have left Clergy alive when he was clamping down on at least two scum out of three would've been a
  huge
  leap of faith.
  
• TLDR: Sando and bigmc both had very strong motivation to kill off Clergy early on.

Day 2

• Sando pursues a case against me. If anything, it's pro-town at first, but (in my opinion) it descends into sophism on many fronts.
  
• Really
  weak vote for Kaiveran in between being rabid for my lynch. Cognitive dissonance, much? That's a
  Fail
  in the scum hunting – pretend scum hunting, that is – department. I actually giggled a little at how silly this was when I saw it while rereading Sando's iso. a minute ago. Townies don't go from being all over one person's lynch to lazily voting for a lurker.
  
• I don't know how Sando, town or scum, might think he could maintain such an argument over the long term. Bearing that in mind, and considering that muh's jailkeeper claim is honest ...

Night 2

• Muh protects me. Nobody dies. That means I was targeted. We've already established this, but just for reference.
  
• Going back to day 2. Theoretically, Sando might've been onto something with his attacks on me, but his argument was false, horrible, redundant – all those adjectives I've already used. I struggle with the notion that Sando might really continue to believe his own case, and I can't imagine that he wasn't reaching exhaustion over the whole thing by the end of day 2. He was fighting a losing battle.
  
• But more importantly than the above: I got a whole lot of credibility when bigmc flipped scum. It'd be next to impossible to persuade the town that I'm mafia when my case against bigmc proved to be well founded. Freely busing on day 2 when there are four times as many townies as mafiosi is the dumbest maneuver bigmc and I could have concocted if we were scum buddies. There was no need for it at all; the mafia could have effortlessly pursued much easier targets without the con of losing one of their precious few members.
  
• So that's a huge point in my favor. The problem for Sando is that I was his only major target during day 2. His case was already weak, and it lost a lot of credibility with bigmc's scum flip. For Sando, the easiest way out
  by far
  would be to night-kill me and wag his tongue on day 3 about his shock that he was so wrong about my alignment, etc., etc.
  
• Had the night kill gone through successfully, Sando would be clear of the whole mess, and the kill wouldn't have made him look suspicious because it's generally a stupid move for a mafioso to kill off his top suspect. It's a huge waste of the
  previous
  day's effort, and it means the mafioso has to force himself to do more fake scum hunting the
  next
  day.
  
• TLDR: Had Sando targeted someone else at night, he'd be able to get two relatively easy townies killed in rapid succession: first, his night kill target, and second, me. The snag was that between Sando's shitty case and bigmc's scum flip, I was becoming a difficult lynch. Hence the night kill, which would not make Sando suspicious for reasons explained above. The kill was Sando-scum's best course of action.

Day 3

• Since I'm still alive, Sando is railroaded into dragging on the crypto-scum case. He's also smeared suspicion over to charter.
  
• And he's wavered between finding muh scummy and thinking there are scum on muh's wagon. Ha. Haha. Hahahahaha ...

TLDR: There is no TLDR. This post has broken my attention span's back. I'm up for a hammer whenever, though it'd be nice of Sando popped back in to claim some power role that's not even in the setup, or whatever.

[crypto]

Oh, and that was a really slick OMGUS by peanutman on charter. I mean, really,

reeeaaaally

slick.

[crypto]

Day 3, Scene 3

crypto:

I am Ripper ... Tearer ... Slasher ... Gouger. I am the Teeth in the Darkness, the Talons in the Night. Mine is Strength ... and Lust ... and Power!

Sando:

Woe is me! I somehow was so tired I blanked out on muh's claim and the

entire

conversation that ensued, and for some boneheaded reason I didn't even wonder why people were switching their votes from muh to me. Have mercy on me, crypto, my lord, for I am innocent! You are truly a lion among men and I was a fool for daring to oppose you. Also, I am scum.

charter:

Crypto, you could have saved yourself a whole lot of time and just posted =======[].

crypto:

=======[].

Vote: Sando.

[crypto]

snarksnarksnarksnarksnark

[crypto]

(Bites off entire fingernail.)

[crypto]

Dramonic, how much have you read?

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 1150):

Trumpet of Doom - 1(hiphop)

Not Voting:Trumpet of Doom, mask man, Pyromaniac, crypto, Kreriov, The Inquisition, Empking, peanutman, dramonic, charter

It takes 6 to lynch, 4 at deadline.

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

Vote: Pyromaniac.

[crypto]

Ugh, there was something that made me think Pyro was not scum. Let me try and dig it up.

He replaced le Chat, right? I thought le Chat was rad town (given the scarcity of his posts) so I've been loath to vote Pyro for a long time. But he needs to man up and answer questions thrown his way, and I'm not unvoting till he does so. It's frustrating that he'd ignore such a simple question from peanut, because (a) I struggle with the idea that scum would be so blatantly obstructive, which makes me want to think Pyro's just bored/lazy town, which in turn is a really frigging irritating form of WIFOM, and (b) peanut was the one who posed the question, and while he made some good points he's definitely one of the shadier players here (in my opinion).

Looking back, le Chat isn't as transparently town as I thought he was. That's extremely annoying. I might meta him.

What does everyone think of Peanut?

I don't see/remember what the big deal is with peanutman. I don't trust him one bit, but he's done nothing to put him above Trumpet or Kaiveran/dramonic or a couple of other players I'm probably forgetting. I'll have to go reread your case.

Sando didn't turn out so well, and peanut is built on the same foundation. I want to try something new.

Trumpet of Doom.

If I can muster the motivation, I'll take a look at the day 1 wagon on bigmc and compare it with other wagons (Pom lynch, wagon on WarWound, wagon on me, bigmc lynch, umpteen wagons on muh, Sando lynch, Pyro wagon).

[crypto]

Unvote: Pyromaniac. Vote: Trumpet of Doom.

[crypto]

1. I am confirmed town.
2. Reading the thread is a beautiful thing.

[crypto]

More votes on Trumpet of Doom would help balance it out.

[crypto]

Mask man, you should totally post (content).

[crypto]

Not only was he not on the bmc wagon, but he was on the sando wagon. Pyro, was the opposite.

Pretty much what I saw when I looked at the vote counts. Trumpet and whoever he replaced (EC, IIRC) were on all the wrong wagons. ALL of them. Plus Trumpet's trying to get a free ticket to LYLO.

[crypto]

Trumpet and the inquisition are lurking their ways to lylo. Scum, please night kill.

epic fail, pyromaniac

[crypto]

Danakillsu, how much of the game have you read?

[crypto]

What a read!

Eh, debatably. So you read before you voted Trumpet, correct?

[crypto]

Shoot, that's not what I meant to ask. I meant to ask if you read before or after you /confirmed.

[crypto]

I meant to ask if you read before or after you /confirmed.

I read most of the thread before even asking to replace. Then I confirmed and read the rest of the thread before voting.

Ah, okay. I was going to call you out if you said you read it all after confirming but before agreeing with hiphop. Never mind then.

[crypto]

Peanutman, I want a full list of suspects with reads and reasons nao please.

[crypto]

Good point, dramonic. I have no idea. We were thinking (or I was thinking) he was insane/paranoid/naive because the game already seems so stacked in the town's favor.

[crypto]

Unvote: Trumpet of Doom. Vote: mask man.

Mask man, stop failing, please. I had a town read on you way back like five years ago at the beginning of the game. Since then you've been the king of coasting. List of suspects, plox.

Are we still going on about hypo cop? I actually trust the town's judgment this game and I'd rather not clue the mafia in on the real cop, especially given the possibility of insanity, naiveté, or paranoia.

For the motivationally challenged (cough,

mask man

, cough) I can post a vote count analysis that shows why Trumpet is either scum or extremely unlucky town (i.e., town with really inaccurate scum reads) who's been on

every

single

wrong

wagon at

every

single

wrong

moment in the game. Either way, stringing him up is the way to go right now.

Scumtron 5000

[0.1] hiphop
[0.1] CSL/RayFrost/malpascp/Kreriov
[0.2] charter
[0.3] Team Aether/Empking/danakillsu
[0.3] Staple/WarWound/The Inquisition
[0.4] le Chat / Pyromaniac
[0.5] mask man
[0.6] X_~/Ojanen/peanutman
[0.7] Kaiveran/dramonic
[0.8] EtherealCookie / Trumpet of Doom

There, Kreriov, you can weasel a hypo cop out of that after I die tonight and flip Vermont.

[crypto]

Yes, Captain Nitpicker, because he isn't posting content.

Speaking of which, you should post content.

[crypto]

Unvote: mask man. Vote: Trumpet of Doom.

Mask hasn't posted on the whole site since his last post here. Hadn't seen that.

[crypto]

That was a super-fast replacement. Yay.

Crypto, were you (and are you still) looking to be replaced, or was this a mistake?

I was, but I'm staying in. Lucky you.

[crypto]

Why? Charter's been pushing for peanutman. I know he suspects Trumpet, but his vote was reluctant IIRC. Am I missing something?

[crypto]

Oh hai that was hammer. Roflwin.

Town: charter, hiphop, Kreriov.

Leaning town: danakillsu, The Inquisition, Pyromaniac.

Neutral: mask man / Rockatansky (note mask man's attempt to lynch muh instead of BMC on day 2).

Leaning scum (i.e., scum if dramonic is town): peanutman.

Scum: dramonic.

Cop should strongly consider claiming tomorrow. Four results with three inno and one guilty or three guilty and one inno should be workable,

assuming

the cop is sane or insane.

Vote count analyses FTW if all else fails.

[crypto]

/dies

[crypto]

Watch out for Kreriov

lolwifom

[crypto]

Why am I not dead?

Vote: peanutman.

WOOHOOHOOOOOOOOOO.

Sane cop? WTF?

[crypto]

Oh, I see why.

[crypto]

Yeah.

[crypto]

Good game. Weird one. My interest and mood obviously dipped big time mid-game, so I apologize for that. Plus my reads were all over the place (though I am pleased at how accurate they were later on). Wish I hadn't got sidetracked from my initial scum read on EtherealCookie.

And boo at Sando's town flip. I thought my theory fit together so awesomely. Blargh.

BMC's play puzzled me. For most of day 1 I was convinced he was town, and if he hadn't voted for me during my day 2 self-destructive rampage (which I admit was only a third gambit to two-thirds tantrum), I don't know if I would've gotten my butt in gear and gone for his lynch.

Serial, I still don't think I was contradictory about my BMC meta read. I thought that overall he was more aggressive/decisive, but that he was more wary/cautious/indecisive about the one player he knew was a newbie—which sort of made sense given his experience and sort of didn't (which, for what it's worth, wound up being a major factor in my belayed flip-flop about him). Maybe I didn't explain it properly. Anywho.

Why was I lynched again? Sorry I didn't play well; I don't think I put my all into it D1. Also, I'd never encountered someone who tunneled like crypto before.

Not the first time I've been informed of that (though you're certainly more polite about it than most people ). Honestly, I was convinced you were scum; it had nothing to do with your quality of play, which I didn't think was bad. Your town flip drove me nuts and since then (that was a looong time ago, wasn't it?) I think I've gotten less tunnel-visioned. I do still like to tunnel on my suspects in the actual thread, but I take note of other stuff more obsessively than I used to. Sorry I lynched you.

Oh, yeah, and I don't know how limited Kaiveran access was, but IMO she did a pretty damn good job at laying low as cop.

[crypto]

Yikes, epic EBWOP: "My interest and mood" should be "My

effort

and mood." Big difference.