Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[Vi]

Confirming that I need to go over that ruleset with you after the game.

...and that I got my role.

[Vi]

Confirming that I need to go over that ruleset with you after the game.

...and that I got my role.

8. Finally, you will be considered inactive if you do not place a vote on a player, no matter how many posts you make, within the first 5 days of the start of any game day.

Good luck in lylo!

I was just about to quote that in a warning to Maemuki

[Vi]

The reasoning behind it was that if I wasn't going to allow unvotes, I didn't want people just FoSing the whole time until they finally decided who to lynch.

The mod shouldn't have to micromanage these things tbh.
That sort of thing is done by a Town that wants to lose... or scum. Either way I think you should let them do it.

Also, *reminds RayFrost*

[Vi]

Also, *reminds RayFrost*

Daykill: VI

capital I deliberate

*continues needlessly antagonizing RayFrost*

[Vi]

Also, *reminds RayFrost*

Daykill: VI

capital I deliberate

*continues needlessly antagonizing RayFrost*

*decides to have VI killed at some point, be it by lynch or by shooting, it will happen!!!*

Hellooooooooo randomvotesville.

[Vi]

vote: SpyreX

for enslaving the Spathi.

Except they wanted to be enslaved so yeah.

Vote: sigma

(L-10)
Bandwagoning someone who, if scum, could be a significant threat.

[Vi]

I'm a little disappointed that my non-random vote hasn't gotten any feedback yet. I'll go into the reasoning a little more: I have some decent meta on those who I've played with before (anyone in Mini 839 + CSL). Furthermore, the person who I vote for is more likely to be wagoned than any of the people I don't for. Furthermore, if someone gets wagoned in the early game, it will give me something to go on for a person that I don't have any meta experience for. So, I voted for someone I hadn't played with before.

@anyone who will answer: Do you agree with my reasoning?

It's okay; people are having fun stalling the beginning of the game for no evident reason~

I understand and agree with your reasoning.
Do you think this ruse will succeed now that you've explained it?
What were you

hoping

would happen?

[Vi]

people are having fun stalling the beginning of the game for no evident reason

Are you accusing someone of stalling? I think you should name names.

I would be accusing everyone who isn't trying to generate discussion with their random votes of stalling.
Unfortunately I only have one vote, and I currently prefer my current approach for finding scum over the trouble of seeing who is most egregiously faking their random vote.

I was hoping that someone would take offense at my stated reason and non-random vote me. I don't think that's likely to happen now -- probably should have waited a little longer for that to happen, but I'm feeling impatient.

People

are

nonrandomly voting for you...
Were you expecting anything at all from hiphop, then, or were you trying to incite general controversy?

Don't really see it as a ruse. A scum-tell is something you shouldn't reveal, certainly, but me explaining my voting strategy shouldn't appreciably change the likelihood of an early bandwagon

[on whom?]

at this point.

I don't understand what you're saying here and I'm pretty sure I'm not reading this properly.
In context with the above quote, this seems like you're looking for a bandwagon on

yourself

... not hiphop.

[Vi]

EBWOP:

I currently prefer my current approach

This is what happens when you accidentally sound too pretentious. My eyes hurt rereading this.

[Vi]

Vi, CSL, Pads, Juls

Not enough letters. Lazy.

Scum are lazy.

Thus.

MEGAVOTE

I prefer 'elegant'.

Ur-Quan are just about the opposite of "elegant".

Thus.

OMGUS

Lynching someone whose meta you don't know is just extension of "lynch killa 7" logic

Nnnnnnnno, "lynch killa seven" is

all about

knowing k7's meta of lurking through every game.

Question to both of you: Is there anything better you could be doing to find out who's Town or not?

[Vi]

vi who should i vote for?

More people should ask me this question
SpyreX, ConfidAnon, hitogoroshi, and maybe E-Pengy would be good picks right now.
(Note: ConfidAnon 88 is a good question that sigma should answer.)

To move things in the correct direction,

Unvote: sigma
Vote: SpyreX

(L-11)

Sigma is not the first person to use the "I'm voting for someone I don't know" reason. I have seen it before. It is not novel. It is not wild and crazy. Haven't you seen it before, Vi?

I've used it before. Of course, that's not why I voted sigma or why I pressured him. So I don't know why you voted me. (Bad puppy, no biscuit!)

RedCoyote 80 was basically the less-preppy version of my argument at the top of Page 4, ftr.

@Hoopla 91: If we

weren't

wagoning sigma, what would you be doing with your vote right now?
Also, people need to stop complaining about your avatar.

RayFrost is playing even more terribly than usual. There's no award for the achievement, but etc.

[Vi]

Vi, tell me who to vote for and why.

See my response to roflcopter.

@Hoopla: k

[Vi]

I don't think I've ever been an early bandwagon.

Is it tasty?

Is it scary?

Will it hurt?

Help. Me.

This post is a disgrace to your avatar.

Yes, it's your fault you introduced me to Star Control

Regardless, please DIAF.

[Vi]

How's about this: I'll DIAF if you take responsibility for said F.

Why wouldn't I take responsibility while Fing around?

[Vi]

I'm talking about the small gravity well you already seem to be forming with the crazy voters. Lets assume I actually DO DIAF today there done be some woosh goin on'

Nothing you have said or done so far would suggest that this is a risk that isn't worth taking.

Hoopla, what is your take on SpyreX?

[Vi]

Budja is correct.
You're not going to like hearing this, SpyreX, but now that I've seen the gap between you-Town and you-scum it's pretty easy to pick out.

[Vi]

Ugh. Does that mean I'll have to read one of SpyreX's games so I can see what's the difference between his play now and his usual-town/usual-scum play?

No. Do you find his play now scummy?

[Vi]

@csl- I expect more posts from you, besides the weekend. If you can't treat this game as a commitment than you should ask for a replacement. I don't care if we are out of the rvs,

vote csl

This is random. Why did you comment on CSL out of everyone who wasn't posting at this point?

Budja is correct.
You're not going to like hearing this, SpyreX, but now that I've seen the gap between you-Town and you-scum it's pretty easy to pick out.

Details?

First quote: Seconding this.

Second quote: SpyreX-Town is

extremely

obvTown.
SpyreX-CitC is being vague all over and rubbing off as fake.

Favorite quote so far -

The part of this I'm having some issues wrapping my head around is that this seems hyper-aggressive - like you actually think I'm scum and this is some kind of power-push.

No, I thought all the votes passed around in the first 500 posts are just aimlessly accusing each other until people start lurking!

----

I just wanted to see you find him scummy is all,

?

[Vi]

EBWOP: While that is my favorite quote, one that would be more useful to you is this -

My others posts while still joking around ARE saying things. If that bit of joking is too much noise to see what I'm saying well... it looks like the mood is getting somber enough that it'll go away anywho.

If you read these other posts in isolation... no they're not.

[Vi]

@CSL: Real Mafia players are hilarious

outside

the RVS.

I don't think you deserve a vote yet, but please, CALM THE HELL DOWN PLEASE!!!

^^too cheesy to be true^^

You sound very jumpy and cautious, almost overly so.

^^too cheesy to be true^^

I don't know. Not enough discussion happening.

^^too weak to be true^^

[Vi]

Sorry I am late to the party.

*fweeeeeee*

But Vi has peaked my interest in this town Spyrex vs. scum Spyrex. I realize now I have only seen Spyrex as town. Vi, can you give me two contrasting games to look at?

A game where SpyreX was obvious Town (yet the scum tried to discredit him for some reason).
A game where I noticed "oh SpyreX is acting differently" from my first post (and chose to proxy my vote to him anyway) >.>

guys maemuki is town

I'm pretty sure I agree with this.

[Vi]

@SpyreX meta for Juls: The take-home point is that SpyreX-Town is, like, really obvTown.
There is nothing even halfway Townish about SpyreX's posts ITT.

[Vi]

guys maemuki is town

I feel obligated to believe this, but isn't it a bit early to be spitting out stuff such as "confirmed town"?

1) No
2) You're putting "confirmed" into rofl's mouth

[Vi]

guys maemuki is town

I'm pretty sure I agree with this.

Why?

Are you implying that you're NOT Town?

You're playing transparently in asking questions and demanding answers from people - digging up the information that the RVS frankly doesn't provide.
This isn't within your meta per se but I think circumstances have changed since the last two games in which I've seen you.
Whatever you're doing differently, pass it on to CSL and RayFrost for me, please <.<

I has a question though. You've argued both for (174) and against (186) people joining the wagon. Just skimming by I didn't see where you mentioned the result of reading through SpyreX's posts - just that people didn't give what you considered good reasons to vote SpyreX. So what was your individual read on SpyreX?

My guess it's that e_k decided to use the fact that Vi never saw the "I don't know you I vote you" method before as her random vote.

Actually, I may have used it before. If you're going to place an early vote with no other information, it's a good tactic.
However, that's not why I voted or pressured sigma, so AFAIK e_knits' vote was a

non sequitur

.

yeah ok i could lynch confidanon today

If we're going to keep agreeing with each other we could probably reduce the scum to ashes D1 ^.^

*WARNING* A HUGE BATTLESHIP IS APPROACHING FAST

Fixed~

[Vi]

@ Mae: Unless he's scum.

Scum

hate

calling people Town.
They hate Town calling people Town even more.

Limiting the number of people you're willing to suspect is anti-scum play.

[Vi]

csl, do you have any completed games on this site as scum, and if so can you please post links to them?

I have one.

This was kind of a game with CSL-Town in it. Not lynched though.

[Vi]

Rofl's accusation is based on the fact that I did not say anything about sigma's argument.

No it's not.

I accused the other person because I feel that scumhunting is more productive than defending myself against a flimsy argument.

Similarly, flimsy arguments like what you gave are not productive scumhunting.

CSL's slight OMGUS is noted . . . the vote seems kind of random, because of when it happened. Rofl mentions a point about me, CSL posts about nonrelated things

^^^No really. This isn't scumhunting.^^^

@CSL: If you changed your avatar, you wouldn't be CSL.

[Vi]

I don't random-vote on page 10.

It would be super-chocolate-covered-awesome if you explained your vote then~

[Vi]

I don't random-vote on page 10.

It would be super-chocolate-covered-awesome if you explained your vote then~

More baffling is that you left the ConfidAnon wagon for this vote.

[Vi]

Now, see, this is what is awesome about meta. Its not that I, this game, am being scummy it is simply a factor of my play seems different here.

But that's not true at all~
You even listed two quotes from me where I argued that you were scum without using meta~

1.) This talk of white noise. Aside from my first two posts I AM asking questions; sigma's double-bladed "lol, reactions / meta beem", rayfrosts defeatist attitude which, apparently, is meta-fueled and then trying to parse out this meta-wagon. There's a theme there, I just can't put my fingers on it...

The questions you're asking are/were not particularly convincing for scumhunting regardless of who asked them. Many posts, not much worth.

2.) The fact that Vi is pushing this like "SCUM FOUND" instead of the information / pressure wagons one would EXPECT from the early wagon. I'm not even sure what I have to discuss with it (part of the itch of meta) "You're playing different, hence you're scum." "I'm not scum" WOOOSH.

It would be more convincing if you played in some form of a pro-Town manner.
In addition, what's the point of a pressure wagon if there's no chance of it leading to a lynch?

3.) Captain Budja and the little wagonneers. Sure it'd be tech if I am scum but when this party seems to be the lemmings and Vi playing the pipes and that's A-OK well awesome.

We're the wagoneers! You can be one too! And lynching on meta is the thing to do!

Why Budja in particular, considering we brought up the same points at about the same time? (And considering ConfidAnon's the one with the wagon)

-----

@crypto: Do you want people to discuss your Maevoteki, or not?
Also, if your kill on RayFrost turns out to be fake I will be upset with you.

[Vi]

@crypto: Do you want people to discuss your Maevoteki, or not?

Not sure yet.

Then kindly stop staging a diversion from our fully warranted SpyreX/ConfidAnon hate with your unwarranted Maemuki hate.

@Maemuki: I'll see what I can do. (I didn't know you liked that series.)

mah boi.

[Vi]

Because I think you're scum. Thinking you're scum ≠ wanting to lynch you.

Unless you're calling Maemuki scum as a personal insult, you just admitted you're not playing to the Town win condition.

That was easy.

Why is it unwarranted, again?

Good question! You answer.

[Vi]

I

do

agree with SpyreX in at least one area.

And, based on current behaviors we're going to see one of the games with a MASSIVE content divide that pre-needs to be monitored before it gets out of control.

So I'm going away for a while, and I suggest the scum and the pegasus knight do the same.

----INTERMISSION----

[Vi]

When we start to lose players, it probably won't be as big of a deal, but there is no reason to make more than 3 posts in one sitting (Mae, CSL, crypto, Vi, RF, etc.)

You didn't happen to notice who stopped that string, did you?
Less lecturing, more tl;dring about scummy people.
Although I wouldn't want Energetic Penguin to fall behind; his early posts were not at all satisfying~

I would daykill Pads but I don't feel like it right now. This is partly because I think his post is leading in all kinds of bad directions, either unintentionally or otherwise.

@SpyreX: Your posts. They're white noise. You say "but it's early". I say "I don't care", partly because my posts are NOT white noise and neither are a handful of others'. You say "you can't find scum on page 5". I say "lol why not". You say "I don't know who to stick with between ConfidAnon and the people on your wagon". I say "gee I wonder why, considering ConfidAnon is the more likely one to be scum". You say "I dare you to lynch me and see what happens". I say "I think you're bluffing and I'll take you up on the offer, but I can't lynch you by myself".

SpyreX and ConfidAnon are still scum.
crypto is more likely Town who feels like pointlessly leading people on.
Infinis and Pads have one more post to redeem themselves.

roflcopter is having a party without me

Unvote: SpyreX
Vote: ConfidAnon

(L-8)

[Vi]

words

Conciseness is pro-Town.

crypto - I don't think your case on Maemuki is convincing, although I can understand where you're coming from. This is mostly because Maemuki didn't vote SpyreX or attempt to make a convincing case.
If anything, it would look worse if SpyreX flipped scum (which is a couple of shades of confusing on the consistency scale but I'll go with it).

[Vi]

Vi, if Spyrex is still likely scum to you why have you left his wagon for the smaller Confid one?

It's growing, whereas the SpyreX wagon isn't. Again, I can't lynch SpyreX by myself.

Sotty7, who else is scum?

[Vi]

But - I never said

I

suspected SpyreX. I made that post to understand the SpyreX wagon - not to actually post on it. My read on SpyreX, is, as I said, neutral. If that wasn't clear to you - *shrugs* I don't know.

In that one post, you asked SpyreX questions. Were you satisfied with his answers? How?

I'm starting to suspect that I have more posts on this game than on some of my completed games.

42 posts in this game; 43 in Forum Mafia (including postgame, which makes up for how you replaced in early D1).

@Sotty7: Could you quantify how scummy sigma is to you?
Also, change your avatar to Nazrin already

@E-Penguin: DIAF = Die In A Fire.
Now please* catch up.

* "Please" in this context means "ASAP".

The fluff in this post should in no way suggest that the serious stuff is not serious.

[Vi]

Vi uses charged language ie "stalling" to end the RVS, which as of sigma's failed trap, I believe it was. Game theory argument about how long the RVS should be is fine and good, but I didn't like the tone.

Does this make me more likely to be scum?

Vi seemed only to nominally to go after sigma for the failed trap, which makes me think it was a scum buddy helping him out of a jam.

Pray tell what "jam" you're referring to here.
Also pray tell why sigma's gambit was worth following up in an accusatory manner, which you seem to be accusing me of not doing.

At the very least I don't think you're scum.

----

@Maemuki: So why is SpyreX still a neutral read to you?

----

hiphop is textbook active lurking. scummy.

What do you think of SpyreX's reason for seeing him as Town?

[Vi]

I'm quite suspicous of Hoopola, His continuing wagon hopping and following the crowd like a lemming is scummy.

Hoopla is not as ignored as this thread would lead you to believe.

Is there anything else you would like to add to the discussion?

[Vi]

Pops, awesome new avatar.

I currently find confianon scummy for the things already brought up and if Pops insists that hoopola will actually post content then I'm gonna,

Unvote, Vote: Confidanon

Again I ask - anything more to add to the discussion?

[Vi]

And then of course this gem:

I currently find confianon scummy for the things already brought up and if Pops insists that hoopola will actually post content then I'm gonna,
Unvote, Vote: Confidanon

'For the things already brought up' is my trigger phrase.

vote: Energetic Penguin

. I'll go dig up more of his stuff in a bit but honestly I think he kind of makes the case against himself here. I doubt this will get a bandwagon going (early vote only as strong as it's justification and all that) but this is more of a meta-crusade to end 'for the things already brought up.'

Is this a policy lynch, then?

[Vi]

Is this a policy lynch, then?

Depends on what sense you mean. I do think that it's a very scummy and anti-town thing to say "voting x for reasons already mentioned" so it's not a policy thing in that sense. However, I suppose if someone showed something akin to 'That's what ep always does', that wouldn't sway me, and in that sense it is a policy lynch. I think it's either a scumtell or terrible play that should be punished. Either one is reason enough to throw down a vote.

Considering E-Pengy is probably a private alt, I don't think any meta will be surfacing any time soon.

I've been waiting for E-Pengy for a while (you can see it in one of my early posts) to see if he'll do anything decisive. So far, I like your vote.

[Vi]

EBWOP: What you said.

[Vi]

@hiphop: Oh hi. Post.

[Vi]

I'm not sure how many fences one could put together to build a house of fences but, yea. If you asked me what his read of me was after that paragraph I couldn't tell you. And there's an unvote.

I withdrew from your wagon and you don't have an inkling? Do you find it scummy that I have not committed you to either Column A or Column B?

What are you suggesting that SpyreX should have done when you withdrew from his wagon?

I mean, really, 'he doesn't give any reasons on why we shouldn't lynch him'? Is there a weaker reason to suddenly suspect someone?

It's not dissimilar from the treatment given to CSL and Idiotking.

I bet if I or crypto (whom I like better since the VT flip of ConfidAnon) posted something like that, VI would be all over it. But he doesn't follow up at all. Notice there's no actual answer to VI's question.

Actually, I have a Town read on crypto.

There was no actual answer to SpyreX's question, but since she asked for more information I let that go. I actually did follow up with a trick question (SpyreX didn't answer Mae's questions at all) and then followed up on that... and Maemuki hasn't responded.

How did VI not see, in a post he obviously read, the answer to the question he was about to ask?

That, I don't have an answer for. I use a selective skimming technique that tends to miss obvious things.

Well okay, your stance is at least halfway understandable and I'm fine with your lifespan as long as you stop with the VI treatment. It's not witty and serves to help me like you less (not in terms of scumminess, but on a personal level).

In the meantime, I have a free vote now. In spite of the above I still don't see Maemuki as scum based on her tone, although I won't chase after the people on her wagon. In the meantime, I would like to do something

else

you'll find scummy--

Vote: Energetic Penguin

(L-8)

-----

Idiotking is probably a giant red herring.

In real life

hitogoroshi doesn't seem to be playing outside his norm, minus the fact that he actually voted for someone.

-----

Cut by Juls:

[Vi]

@imaginality 456:

Scum

Penguin, CSL, Maemuki, IdiotKing

Don't these targets look kind of...

easy

to you?

[Vi]

Vi, no daykill on pads for the capital I?

It's no fun when he's doing it to be an a$$hat.

[Vi]

( though with you being cryto, I don't know what I was thinking.)

Now

you're talking. I am always right about everything. Everyone else needs to get with the program.

Lies.

I

am always right about everything. I reject your reality and substitute my own.

I sympathize with you, Vi, but I think this is a dangerous line of argument. Sometimes the easy target is the correct target. The difficulty in mafia is separating things like newbishness and white noise from actual scum-tells. If you want imaginality to go further into his reasoning, by all means, but calling those targets easy doesn't really get us anywhere.

For that matter, do you think that the people imaginality named look like 'easy' scum but actually are town?

Notice that all four of the people listed are not VIs. They're all

people who are popular suspects now

, with the possible exception of CSL - but then he's always a good standby.

I don't even try to read people like CSL and Idiotking until they do something blatantly Townie (by my standards) or scummy (by their standards). I'm voting E-Pengy. My opinion on Maemuki is somewhere between Town and Undecided.

[Vi]

@Maemuki 478: I called you "an easy wagon". Not "easy". With that said, less defending, more attacking.

@Sotty7 480: You are correct; normally I hate every bandwagon except the one I'm on. However, I expressed interest in all of the wagons I've been on long before I joined them.
imaginality and Hoopla are two more people that come to mind that I'm curious about. (To answer your next objection, I was the one who

started

the imaginality suspicion as well.)

I'm having a difficult time reading RedCoyote, and for reasons a couple of people here know about I'm very worried about that.

e_knits' case against crypto is lame IMO, largely because it consists of crypto doing something I wouldn't expect to do as scum, and crypto's responses saying exactly that.

Sotty7 is now comfortably Town, and I'm willing to agree with roflcopter that pops is too.
Infinis reads like newbscum and wouldn't be a terrible lynch, but I'd like to stay with my E-Pengy vote right now.

[Vi]

Not sure why Infinis is getting so much bad press.

Terrible formatting aside, over half of Infinis' posts is made of filler. Read it for yourself.

pops is partly meta. A good comparison would be RayFrost plus experience minus hyperposting.

I feel like there's some kind of pun I should be able to make on E-Cookie's name, but I can't think of one OTH.

[Vi]

Er, while I was skimming the iso. I saw his join date. He's been around since January. I've been reading him as new to the site. That changes things. I'll have to take a look at his meta.

newb

scum

Infinis has never been scum.

I just don't see what earns him a scum read.

over half of Infinis' posts is made of filler. Read it for yourself.

[Vi]

@hito: I don't think the bandwagon graphs are that effective tbh.

How

do

you intend to pressure people anyway, if not with a vote? People could just ignore you.

@mod: Please prod/replace Psychologic

[Vi]

charter x crypto isn't convincing me of anything except that jerk meets jerk is not a pretty sight.

Budja's 542, on the other hand, is highly amusing - especially that last sentence.
(*acknowledgment of SpyreX's impending ohhhh hay post goes here*)

[Vi]

Vote Count, Day 1

hiphop ( 0 )
Budja ( 1 ) SpyreX
charter ( 0 )
crypto ( 0 ) charter
CSL ( 1 ) - RedCoyote
elvis_knits ( 0 ) crypto
Energetic Penguin ( 5 ) hitogoroshi - popsofctown - hiphop - imaginality - Vi
hitogoroshi ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 0 )
Idiotking ( 4 ) RayFrost - Hoopla - sigma - elvis_knits
imaginality ( 0 )
Infinis ( 1 ) roflcopter
Juls ( 0 )
Maemuki ( 2 ) - Infinis - Pads
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 )
Psychologic ( 0 )
RayFrost ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 0 )
roflcopter ( 0 )
sigma ( 1 ) - sotty7
Sotty7 ( 0 )
SpyreX ( 1 ) - Budja
Vi ( 0 )
Unvote ( 6 ) - Idiotking - EtherealCookie - Psychologic - Maemuki - CSL - Energetic Penguin
Total Votes ( 24 )

With 24 alive, 13 needed to reach a majority.
Deadline is at December 1st, 11am EST

charter x crypto isn't convincing me of anything except that jerk meets jerk is not a pretty sight.

That's pretty insulting, so thanks. Did you read my reasons for voting crypto? You think that trying to pawn something off and then immediately saying you knew it wasn't true isn't scummy?

I read your reasons.
I do find that backtrack to be very strange, especially since it came as a defense of Infiniscum (not just an ordinary theory mistake, especially since that mistake was rectified very quickly).
However, the argument's devolution into "nuh-uh!" "uh-huh!" made me want to skip it altogether and ignore both of you.

[Vi]

Cut the cheese.
The real question is

why did you say it in the first place?

[Vi]

Because as far as I can remember I've never seen scum use it in any game I've ever been in.

I can use italics, too.

But can you use strikeout?

You say you're the alt of someone who posts a lot.
Therefore I don't buy this excuse.

[Vi]

Why yes I lurk in GD

[Vi]

...Symbol? Where have I seen that name before?

I don't think hito is arguing that you're lying on your wiki page.

Cut.

I remain incredulous but will not push the point further.

[Vi]

I'm done spamming the thread. Way off the track of alignment hunting.

Actually, before you go it would be nice if you answered pops.

[Vi]

So, whats this new crypto-slapfight? I see IIoA mentioned. However, I don't see how IIoA had anything to do with what was going on (unless it was pops AGREEING that crypto's business with rofl was bad?)

In short. What in the hell?

Start here (well, read up if you want context) and read the next three posts.

Notice that this still doesn't connect with crypto's version of events.

[Vi]

Pops, because two players castigated me for it, that's why.

Actually reading the topic:
crypto 517: IIoA isn't a scumtell, therefore Infinis is not scum
pops 518: IIoA is an awesome scumtell
crypto 519: lol you're right; I just haven't seen it

The turnaround is as fast as pops said something. The fact that you were defending Infinis in doing so is icing.

(Talking of which, I hope Infinis wasn't intending to convince anyone of anything about his alignment with that post.)

Last, if there was something that suggested that you actually believed IIoA wasn't a scumtell, you would not be seen as scummy right now. No dilemma.

[Vi]

Cut.

Had you said 572 a while ago we wouldn't be here like this.

[Vi]

For the fucktillionth time, I have never noticed IIOA as a scum tell in any of my games. That is what suggests I actually believed it was not a scum tell. I am still unconvinced about it.

How do you expect scum to make lengthy analysis-like posts without actually scumhunting?

[Vi]

While I believe Infinis IS scum I also think in the end I'm going to side with SpyreX here.

At this point I'm just going to go away for the night and come back tomorrow feeling better and resume wanting to lynch E-Pengy or Infinis or maybe Budja or whoever per normal.

and prove that my HTML-fu is superior

[Vi]

I'm not sure how many fences one could put together to build a house of fences but, yea. If you asked me what his read of me was after that paragraph I couldn't tell you. And there's an unvote.

I withdrew from your wagon and you don't have an inkling? Do you find it scummy that I have not committed you to either Column A or Column B?

What are you suggesting that SpyreX should have done when you withdrew from his wagon?

Assuming most of the votes, not just mine, are withdrawn, I think the most pro-town thing for him to do was to lay low, without lurking, and let another wagon come to the forefront for town analysis. I also think that's pretty much what he did, although maybe not with that specific intent in mind.

The answer that you gave is so out of context (resupplied for your convenience) that it's useless.

We learn nothing from a dead Energetic Penguin, town or scum.

False.

Just about the only lynches I agree with you on are e_knits and Maemuki; the latter more for information.

-----

RedCoyote 616's Texan exaggeration and rabble-rousing style gives me terrible flashbacks to this game (not surprisingly, so does pops - although this was one of pops' better games, and he was Town). Add on what roflcopter said and there's nothing to doubt. (Besides, it's no fun pressuring people who don't respond.)

Unvote: Energetic Penguin
Vote: RedCoyote

(L-12)

[Vi]

Vi. We don't talk about that game.

Then if you don't want a rerun of the result, you will wagon RedCoyote.

----

@Pads:

I'm not sure how many fences one could put together to build a house of fences but, yea. If you asked me what his read of me was after that paragraph I couldn't tell you. And there's an unvote.

I don't know what definite stance Pads has on me (if any) or why he unvoted me.

I withdrew from your wagon and you don't have an inkling? Do you find it scummy that I have not committed you to either Column A or Column B?

Um, the fact that I unvoted doesn't suggest that I don't find you scummy? What do you think of how I haven't made a decision on you either way?

What are you suggesting that SpyreX should have done when you withdrew from his wagon?

What kind of opinion should SpyreX have had of you when you unvoted? (i.e. oh hey he unvoted; he must be Town)
(Note: This should have been asked the other way - "What are you suggesting SpyreX should have seen your opinion as?")

Assuming most of the votes, not just mine, are withdrawn, I think the most pro-town thing for him to do was to lay low, without lurking, and let another wagon come to the forefront for town analysis. I also think that's pretty much what he did, although maybe not with that specific intent in mind.

*things that have nothing to do with SpyreX's opinion of you or your opinion of SpyreX*

I'm all ears. Convince me. What do we learn from dead townEP? Dead scumEP?

Assuming E-Pengy maintains his current rate of not posting, and assuming he flips Town, the reasons for his lynch should be somewhat pale compared to numerous other people in the game. You would gain

thirteen players

with reasons for joining the wagon that you could sort out, probably with the categories of

VIs

and

people who should know better

.

Assuming E-Pengy maintains his current rate of not posting and flips scum, aside from the obvious note that dead scum is good scum you would still likely be able to note who actually believed in the wagon, who was half-heartedly into it, and who was just wagoning (by which I mean bussing).

----

I would leave people like IK and CSL for the Vig/other scumgroup/etc. tbh.

[Vi]

Why would another scum group target these players?

If they're THAT scummy, it's a crosskill. A bit risky, but etc.

I don't read people who are usually lynched D1 very well, and thus don't bother with them because everyone

else

wants them dead for reasons that practically make themselves - regardless of whether they're actually scum or not. I agree that they shouldn't live to the late game mostly because I don't trust them to make good use of their votes if Town, but I would prefer that they were sniped by the Vig while we attempt to more reliably find scum during the Day. Like what I'm doing with RedCoyote, a wagon I would very much like to get started.

Plus, again, easy wagon.

[Vi]

I don't trust them to make good use of their votes if Town

What is the downside to shooting these players at any time?

[Vi]

Players like CSL, crypto, Infinis, Idiotking and Energetic Penguin

Why is crypto on this list?

[Vi]

Players like CSL, crypto, Infinis, Idiotking and Energetic Penguin

Why is crypto on this list?

Why do you think he wouldn't be?

Regardless of how scummy you think he is, I don't think he qualifies as a village idiot or policy lynch.

[Vi]

Players like CSL, crypto, Infinis, Idiotking and Energetic Penguin

Why is crypto on this list?

Why do you think he wouldn't be?

Regardless of how scummy you think he is, I don't think he qualifies as a village idiot or policy lynch.

Why are you so eager to defend crypto?

Making a distinction between scummy and village idiot is not the same as defending someone... especially since I just got done saying I'm more interested in lynching scummy people, not VIs.

Thanks for claiming scum! (Who says you can't find them D1?)

[Vi]

Vote Count, Day 1

hiphop ( 0 )
Budja ( 1 ) - SpyreX
charter ( 0 )
crypto ( 4 ) - Hoopla - elvis_knits - Energetic Penguin - roflcopter
CSL ( 4 ) - RedCoyote - sigma - Pads - idiotking
elvis_knits ( 0 )
Energetic Penguin ( 5 ) - hitogoroshi - popsofctown - hiphop - imaginality - Vi
hitogoroshi ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 0 )
Idiotking ( 1 ) - crypto
imaginality ( 0 )
Infinis ( 2 ) - charter - RayFrost
EtherealCookie ( 0 )
Maemuki ( 1 ) - Infinis
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Psychologic ( 0 )
RayFrost ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 0 )
roflcopter ( 0 )
sigma ( 1 ) - sotty7
Sotty7 ( 0 )
SpyreX ( 1 ) - Budja
Vi ( 0 )
Unvote ( 4 ) - EtherealCookie - Psychologic - Maemuki - CSL
Total Votes ( 24 )

With 24 alive, 13 needed to reach a majority.
Deadline is at December 1st, 11am EST

This crypto wagon is garbage. What part of "Caught in the

Crossfire

" does not imply two scumgroups?

Not making things better is how scum-driven this wagon is. Hoopla, elvis_knits, and Energetic Penguin in the same place! E-Pengy even posted! Hoopla and e_knits managed to sync their votes again! Truly InCrEdIbLe.

So let's do something (else) suicidal in this game~

Unvote: RedCoyote
Vote: Energetic Penguin

(L-9)

One of many scum, but this one has the largest wagon.

[Vi]

Okay, crypto is prob right there are two scum teams. I didn't pay that much attention to the flavor or think it might be literal, but I guess it's possible he did.

Back to Idiotking... his csl vote does not impress me

unvote; vote idiotking

Aww, you can't do that. Not only are you deflecting to some random n00b who has no other votes, but you're desyncing your vote from your scumpartner Hoopla

Vaya con cryptos

--

Unvote: Energetic Penguin
Vote: elvis_knits

(L-11)

[Vi]

Vi is starting to rise fast on my scumdar because she keeps throwing accusations everywhere but none of them are sticking.

That's because none of the people who are being voted are people I particularly want to lynch.
Why, exactally, does my behavior make me

more likely to be scum

(not intentional) and

more likely to be annoying

(entirely intentional)?

That goes to everyone who has decided to parrot the question. My vote is moving around; my stances are for the most part not.

@charter: How Hoopla is obvTown to you is beyond my understanding; please show me what you see.

----

@hito:

Now just where in the heck did Infinis come from? Out of thin air? Why did Infinis (Infinis!) cause this level of unity among three players that were just arguing with each other for the past 3 pages? This game is moving a mile a minute for some of you, and this is the same mistake that was made with Confid.

I'm not talking about overblown accusations - what he's saying is fair enough - I'm talking about the overblown hyperbole. RedtheCoyote did precisely this in pro-Town-looking directions in the game I linked. Contrast this game with RedCoyote-Town where he didn't do this.

In other words, a meta tell.

My vote left E-Penguin because he wasn't responding to the pressure. Then it left RedCoyote because it was obvious nobody was going to follow the wagon and E-Penguin decided to toss out a scummy vote at about that time.

----

vi is making this difficult for me. i want to believe he's town and go on a bender lynching all the bad guys with him, but he keeps doing things i disagree with.

like what

[Vi]

I think I lost a post.

Crypto said the same thing about there being two scumteams in 577. Why didn't people pick up on it there? Makes it seem more likely that this wagon was a case of people jumping on charter's point.

Crypto didn't make that post, and it doesn't say anything about teams. Is that the correct post you are thinking of?

Vi is starting to rise fast on my scumdar because she keeps throwing accusations everywhere but none of them are sticking.

That's because none of the people who are being voted are people I particularly want to lynch.
Why, exactally, does my behavior make me

more likely to be scum

(not intentional) and

more likely to be annoying

(entirely intentional)?

That goes to everyone who has decided to parrot the question.

My vote is moving around; my stances are for the most part not.

@charter: How Hoopla is obvTown to you is beyond my understanding; please show me what you see.

Because jumping all over the place with your accusations is a great way to lynch just anyone and a poor way of getting your top suspect lynched. Your play looks like it would benefit a scumyou more than a townyou. That's really suprising that no one being wagoned you wouldn't lynch. I never said anything about you being annoying, I don't think you are being annoying.

Clearly I'm not doing enough if I'm not annoying you

Your accusation that I am attempting to get "just anyone" lynched falters with the part I bolded above.
With that said, I understand where you're coming from somewhat. (stop laughing, hito) I just don't know what more I can do to lynch people who

I

find more likely to be scum except to jump onto existing wagons or cause a scene to start new ones.

Just finished a game with Hooplascum and her play here is quite different. She is much more aggressive and is actually doing dirty work herself as opposed to just posting infrequent snipes and repeating what others say. Guess that won't really convince you of my read, but I'm not really that interested in doing so.

It couldn't hurt. Please supply a link.

[Vi]

vi is making this difficult for me. i want to believe he's town and go on a bender lynching all the bad guys with him, but he keeps doing things i disagree with.

like what

[Vi]

That's because none of the people who are being voted are people I particularly want to lynch.
Why, exactally, does my behavior make me

more likely to be scum

(not intentional) and

more likely to be annoying

(entirely intentional)?

Like I said earlier, it just seems out of character, but then I don't think I have ever played a large game with you.

I change my meta as often as I change my mood (and I'm kind of moody >.> ). After all, I don't like playing as anyone but myself, however arrogant and condescending I may be at any given time.

Lets say you are the only one who has a say in todays lynch. Who is your pick and why? Picks two and three would be nice too.

Lynch preference is currently somewhere around this order:
*elvis_knits (weak presence throughout, chasing easy targets, covering her poorly-advised jump on the crypto wagon with "I didn't read the N0 flavor", not getting an updated avatar of the puppy)
*Energetic Penguin (may be a n00b, but a n00b with awfully convenient timing!)
*Hoopla (not at all seeing the Hoopla-obv-Town, definitely seeing the Hoopla-obv-wagoning - plus that blatant misrepresentation of me apparently defending crypto was

really

telling)
*RedCoyote (I believe in my meta tell)
*Maemuki (her recent posts have been

everything

they've been picked apart for, previous Town read be darned)
*imaginality, Budja, Infinis, etc.

[Vi]

@ Mod: I'd rather be replaced now, then be in a state of what I call, "Newb825remakephobia", in which I'll be really detrimental to the town, and that would be called bad spirit.

Fine print: CSL was scum in Newbie 825

NOW I'm starting to like this CSL wagon.

[Vi]

ok I'll post more and only vote if I can provide my own reasons bt I don't think I should be lynched for this.

Please start now.
Vouching for yourself doesn't do much, btw.

@SpyreX: Would you like to be trendy and vote someone else who everyone is more interested in?

[Vi]

I'll set my own trends. For now.

I'm not sure what the secret 2KOOL decoder ring this game is to get people to LOOK AT YOUR CASE but seriously the "everyone else is doin it" doesn't get me all stoked for a case.

Setting your own trends isn't trendy in this game, and my vote history proves as much.

Considering I kind of launched the SpyreX wagon and that's the bulk of your case I'm not inclined to follow.
Rereading I'm kind of inclined to think that Budja making skeletal posts and saying he's behind is probably more genuine than previously given credit would suggest considering he's replacing out.

[Vi]

Might want to consider doing that for CSL. Replacing out in his fashion is very much against the spirit of mafia, and so is lynching him, but, what can you do? If that's his pattern (there was too many posts to go through in that newbie Vi, did he replace out?) then that's probably how we have to vote.

He replaced in, got put (rightfully) under pressure, spazzed, threatened to replace out, didn't, got Copped that Night and then lynched. Most of those posts came between CSL getting Copped and getting lynched and serve no actual purpose tbh.

Pops, if someone does something scummy, you lynch them for it. It doesn't matter

what

it is. That's how it works.

Note: Being Awesome at Mafia includes knowing when to break this rule.

That doesn't change the fact that Budja jumped on a spurious wagon under spurious reasons and then tried to turn on the cruise control for cool.

*hits the Mute button on this subject*

[Vi]

So... why exactly aren't we going to wait for a replacement and then judge the replacement by his or her own merit? Shouldn't we at least give the replacement a chance?

Usually the answer is a resounding "not really".
Since it's CSL ordinarily I would be willing to make an exception here, but these last few posts from CSL have made me .

@crypto: No. I'm saying that calculated policy lynching > blind policy lynching.

[Vi]

How many mafiosi are there typically in a 25-player game?

Scum usually make up between 25% and 33% of your starting population, so seven or eight. Six would be pushing it.
It's pretty comfortable as far as having to choose which scummy person you want to lynch tbh - especially when there are two scumgroups so there's not as much resistance if a scumwagon starts building.

@pops: I've just finished modding two games that had a sum total of two replacements.

This topic is derailing quickly. If there's nothing important to say, there are a number of people who need the spotlight.

[Vi]

Questionably Scummy

(in no particular order)
Vi- Topping the list (despite it's lack of order), everyone's favorite non-gender. Just looking through the amount of spam Vi has injected into this game and the way his vote has swung everywhere,

Vi is clearly muddling any connections he has with anyone.

Why would town do this? Despite that Vi hasn't committed as many grievous sins as some of you.

The bolded statement is a lie, and throwing "clearly" into it is somewhere between insulting and scummy.
Please elaborate on why you believe this is true... considering you're not the first person to say similar things and I've already responded multiple times.

Your post is more fluff than substance, thus I'm edging toward believing SpyreX again.

But I can't do anything about that now.

-----

This should help get rid of the disgusted feeling I have toward this game right now.

Unvote: elvis_knits

Vote to Hammer: CSL

"No reason not to" is almost an understatement.

Note: It probably won't come into play today, but I can't think of any good reason Town could have for messing around with the plurality lynches. Once someone is hammered, stay on the wagon. (or die)

[Vi]

And Vi, of frikkin course it's more fluff than substance. We are on page 33 and his post is two hours after his replacing-in was announced.

This argument is bad, and you should feel bad.

[Vi]

His view of Mae has slid from town to wanting to lynch over the course of the day for nothing culminating in 620. His muddling takes the form of voting every major bandwagon that appears, how the blood do you find that many scum in a single day? I understand testing the waters for reactions, but honestly, if Vi flipped scum right now it would be hard to tell where to go off of his play right now. Vi asks a lot of questions of his target, but he never actually convinces people to vote them with him and despite his 'unchanging stances' he can't find a single person he wants to lynch and convince others to vote them, just because there is no pre-existing wagon doesn't mean you can't start one.

I'll grant that I didn't say much about Maemuki on my own; I read the argument against her and saw that her posts pretty much fit what they were saying.
As far as SpyreX, I would rather not comment. Flame away.
As far as how many scum you can find in a single day, there are like eight in this game. There are plenty to choose from and they're not very well-hidden.
Not being able to convince people to vote with me stems from me not believing the likes of Idiotking is scum for most of the day.
As far as no pre-existing wagon, lol, what do you think my votes on RedCoyote and elvis_knits were?

If nothing else I like your approach to hating elvis_knits and if you would like to wagon her tomorrow I would join you.

Additional question, aiming toward theory: How is "spamming" scummy in my case?
I acknowledge the anti-Town power of preventing people from catching up - I've seen it done; it's devastating - but in my case I would be sticking my neck way, way, way, way, waaaaaay out for reasons that are essentially unnecessary, as opposed to the much safer and working strategy of sitting back and trying to find a nice comfy wagon to jump on.

-----

Even if CSL flips Town, there is no loss. See crypto 833.

[Vi]

Besides Vi, we know you would get WAY too bored doing that. We know you.

These sentences contradict themselves.
Unfortunately, explaining why would involve an appeal to meta, and things would just get worse from there.

[Vi]

Nothing to add that hasn't been pointed out. Idiotking, Vi, Spyrex, etc. Basically more people look like scum then there are scum in this game, which is a feat considering the number of scum is pretty high.

That's a good way to make tomorrow a long Day for you

@CSL: You were hammered for good reasons, nobody sympathizes, and your whining does nothing but make people dislike you more on a personal level. Leave. Don't return.

[Vi]

@vi: Which pronoun should I use for you? I've seen it both ways, and you've never cleared it up. I'm beginning to think vi refers to this character.

A bit too rigorously orderly for me, but otherwise not too far off.
You can call me however you like; I don't mind. (with the obvious exception of VI)

I don't see why SpyreX's post is scummeriffic tbh. (omgbuddying/defending/IfeellikeI'mmissingathirdobviousanticipatedaccusation)

In less statistical terms, do you think CSL is scum at this time?

[Vi]

*Hoopla (not at all seeing the Hoopla-obv-Town, definitely seeing the Hoopla-obv-wagoning - plus that blatant misrepresentation of me apparently defending crypto was

really

telling)

No, I don't buy into the satiric reason given for the crypto accusation.

I acknowledge that she's more right than I would like to admit about wagoning, but not to the extent to justify what she has done - especially considering her votes have correlated extremely well with puppyscum's votes.

[Vi]

Actually, I thought the satire was fairly obvious from the first post she made using it.

That would be because you were the person that posted it... and I'm not your keeper.

@Zakeri: I suggest you find a better D1 strategy than posting the easy consensus reads during Twilight~

[Vi]

Vi, you didn't even attempt an answer at my question. All you said was "well, Hoopla isn't as scummy as I thought". Ugh, what a pickle. You or crypto for scumbag numero uno.

You mean missed the self-quote entirely?

@pops: Go see that one game I modded for more info.

[Vi]

Vi, 620: I doubt I'm going to respond much faster, but explain, "Add on what roflcopter said".

Do you mean you agree with post 617? Infinis is our best lynch and anyone speaking against it is obstructing the game, and thus scummy?

These two sentences have

nothing to do with each other

.

redcoyote is suffering from the "summarize and get someone else to analyze" disease too, with a side of naysaying any and all forms of forward progress. i'm not sure i have a real bead on his opinion on any player as of this last post, all i know is that he wants us to slow down and all take a good hard look at each other.

oh, i do know how he feels about csl, thats right. he feels that we could never ask for a better day one lynch. which is code for this is an easy lynch that i shouldn't take any flak for if and when he flips town.

Infinis' name doesn't show up anywhere in this post.

Add on that about 40% of your post was you complaining about the length of the topic and demonizing the overposters, and yes, your substance can and should rightfully be called weak.

Plus there's this.

Can you stop being useless? Are you just waiting for D1 to be over with?

I think I'll tell my scumbuddies to keep you alive a little longer.

Considering this is the post in question--

Ohh CSL could use a rope/bullet as well. No questions there. As well as e_k.

That doesn't change the fact that Budja jumped on a spurious wagon under spurious reasons and then tried to turn on the cruise control for cool.

--I don't see why you brought in the remark about your scumbuddies, except as a bold slip.

------

@Hoopla defenders: If it's that obvious to everyone else and I just don't "get it", then whatever.

[Vi]

@mod: Don't you mean "Day 2 begins" in the topic title?

Yes I did. Good catch.

imaginality

the Mafia

Roleblocker was killed

whawhat!?

Vote: elvis_knits

(L-10)
crypto's death strengthens this read.

[Vi]

Vote: elvis_knits

(L-10)
crypto's death strengthens this read.

Why do you think so?

Obviously the Mafia did not target imaginality.
That means they targeted either Hoopla or crypto. They could have gone either way considering Hoopla was allegedly Extremely Pro-Town, but looking at who crypto was gunning for yesterday--

ConfidAnon

Maemuki
elvis_knits
Infinis

imaginality

CSL

and the fact that I have a scumread on elvis_knits and I'm becoming more and more interested in your alignment makes me want to put two and two together.

Do you have anyone you would like to vote

right now

, without rereading?

[Vi]

Hey puppy, that reasoning would be great if I didn't already have reason to suspect you yesterday.

@Maemuki: Please do. I'd love to see an opinion you didn't steal from someone else.
Also, why so desperate to jump in front of e_knits? And where did crypto suspect you "waaaay more"?

[Vi]

If you want wagon analysis, it's over here.

sigma (109) - Sotty7, Infinis, Vi, RedCoyote,

Hoopla

SpyreX (248) - Pads, Vi, RayFrost, Budja, hiphop, Hoopla, roflcopter

ConfidAnon

(395) - sigma,

CSL

, roflcopter, elvis_knits,

Hoopla

, Vi, Sotty7,

popsofctown

, charter

Idiotking (585) - RayFrost,

Hoopla

, sigma, elvis_knits

Energetic Penguin (606, 678) - hitogoroshi, popsofctown, hiphop,

imaginality

, Vi

crypto (675)

- charter, elvis_knits, Energetic Penguin, roflcopter

CSL (801)

- RedCoyote, sigma, Pads,

Idiotking,

crypto

, popsofctown, roflcopter, Infinis, charter, hiphop, Idiotking,

Hoopla

,

imaginality

, Vi

Cut by scum: Will respond in a moment if you don't accuse me of spamming the thread

[Vi]

Edit to previous post: ConfidAnon's name should be in green and bolded.

Fixed

----

Lets say you are the only one who has a say in todays lynch. Who is your pick and why? Picks two and three would be nice too.

Lynch preference is currently somewhere around this order:
*elvis_knits (weak presence throughout, chasing easy targets, covering her poorly-advised jump on the crypto wagon with

"I didn't read the N0 flavor"

, not getting an updated avatar of the puppy)
*Energetic Penguin (may be a n00b, but a n00b with awfully convenient timing!)
*Hoopla (not at all seeing the Hoopla-obv-Town, definitely seeing the Hoopla-obv-wagoning - plus that blatant misrepresentation of me apparently defending crypto was

really

telling)
*RedCoyote (I believe in my meta tell)
*Maemuki (her recent posts have been

everything

they've been picked apart for, previous Town read be darned)
*imaginality, Budja, Infinis, etc.

Note: Bonus negative points for the bolded because

the Mafia would know that there's only one scumgroup

; it would make sense for a Mafioso to assume as much instead of just going off of the title like the plebes.

Okay, crypto is prob right there are two scum teams. I didn't pay that much attention to the flavor or think it might be literal, but I guess it's possible he did.

Back to Idiotking... his csl vote does not impress me

unvote; vote idiotking

Aww, you can't do that. Not only are you deflecting to some random n00b who has no other votes, but you're desyncing your vote from your scumpartner Hoopla

The crypto wagon (see previous post) was hilariously scum-driven, and of course you were on it.
Similarly, your wagon-based reasoning for suspecting Pads and sigma seems kind of lacking atm. Did you look into the contexts in which they voted CSL/ConfidAnon?

----

@Maemuki:

*claps hands* With this, I assume you have no comeback, correct? Correct.

I have no idea how you confused "Please elaborate" with "Yes Maemuki you're absolutely correct".

*raises eyebrow* Read D1 and come and talk to me. Crypto was on my back on pretty much the whole day.

While he did make a case on you and there was a spat between the two of you midDay, reading him in isolation that doesn't comprise many of his posts, let alone "the whole Day".

And again, jumping in front of e_knits is very much against your usual approach to this game (asking people lots of questions). Plus

elvis_knits:

only one game post at this time, voting vi for a dodgy reason. keeping an eye on her.

Why single out a person that only

posted once and RVS voted

when the game started yesterday and there are more people of that kind?

My guess it's that e_k decided to use the fact that Vi never saw the "I don't know you I vote you" method before as her random vote. But each to his own. That's something that e_k has to answer, not me.

Oh, this is nothing new? And this is the only time you mentioned the puppy yesterday? Great!

[Vi]

And again, jumping in front of e_knits is very much against your usual approach to this game (asking people lots of questions).

Well, mind to refresh my memory then? When did you call e_k scummy yesterday? So I can see what your reasons were. Aside from being on crypto's wagon of course.

I know English isn't your first language, but it has to be pretty hard for you to miss me answering this question

in the same post you're responding to

.

I have no idea how you confused "Please elaborate" with "Yes Maemuki you're absolutely correct".

Because you didn't make an effort to deny it. That's why.

Asking you to explain yourself because I'm fairly positive your "logic" won't hold up under scrutiny qualifies as making an effort to deny it.
You can stop playing word games and

explain yourself

anytime you like.

---

@Vi - your only point against me seems to be that I vote crypto.

Not true, but it's the only one you can try to defend.

---

My bandwagon analysis in 905 is better than everyone else's; use it

[Vi]

Hey Pads, two issues with your last post.

1) Where and when did you stop hating me and start suspecting elvis_knits? It's like you're saying "Okay, VI, I'll go along with your case". Especially considering the snipe you take at me when discussing Sotty7.

2) In which alternative universe did we discuss the merits of a CSL lynch? We discussed the implications of an E-Penguin lynch, which is unfortunately not equivalent. There's not much you can get out of policy lynches that are

that

warranted aside from who was interested in wagoning. The best thing about the CSL lynch was that it brought on the Night phase.

I'm reasonably comfortable with an Idiotking-Town read and think that he's another punching bag to make an easy mislynch.
If we're going to have five kills per Day I think we need to be done with the n00bchasing now.

[Vi]

"chasing easy targets" -- No. My votes, in order: Vi, confidanon, idiotking, crypto, idiotking, sigma.

Vi was RVS material, and not well-reasoned anyway.
ConfidAnon was etc.
Idiotking is an easy target, and always has been.
crypto, see earlier point.
While I don't like the somewhat arbitrary reasons for your vote on sigma, he IS worth pressuring. Check out who he voted yesterday--

hiphop, ConfidAnon, Idiotking, CSL

--even less impressive as your list tbh.

Vi is voting me and questions why pads is voting me. Usually when I am on a bandwagon I believe in, I don't question other people who join me helping me lynch said person.

And I do, normally to the point of paranoia. Besides, do you have a problem with Pads voting you?

I acknowledge that I'm not as confident in my position as before.

Unvote: elvis_knits
Vote: Maemuki

(L-9)

----

At the beginning of the day, Vi is all over these burgeoning bandwagons: sigma, SpyreX, Confid, Energetic Penguin

easy wagons

Important note: I

started

the sigma and SpyreX wagons. ConfidAnon, no contest. E-Penguin is still likely lurkerscum.
Further, I would argue that sigma and SpyreX were

not

easy wagons.

Then, in ISO 65, he defends not voting for CSL with "let the other scumteam/vig" take care of them. Scummy logic.

How is it scummy logic? CSL is a well-established VI and I don't want to have to spend time figuring out his alignment if he's virtually guaranteed to die or replace out anyway.

Vi then later hammers CSL, making one mention of CSL in between.

Scumfession (ISO 85) "Even if CSL flips Town, there is no loss. See crypto 833." Justifying CSL flipping town after he's already been lynched, trying to distance from the wagon.

CSL had twelve votes on him and I had already pointed a couple of times to how even his appeals to emotion were failing. What was I supposed to do, sit back and continue to say "no, uh-uh, staying waaaay off this one in spite of having no reason not to vote him" and let the Day drag out longer? I'm sure you would find that scummy too.

@Hoopla: I did not and still do not see the Hoopla-obvTowniness everyone else does. You'll notice that everyone gave reasons for calling the other people Town before. The only person who gave a clue on Hoopla was you, and it was with a meta example (that was promptly naysayed by crypto). (I will grant that the meta WAS different though.)

@killing Hoopla as scum: I disagree, and that's all that point deserves.

@not playing to my Town meta: Please elaborate. *gets gummi bears to enjoy while reading this one*

----

@hito: Supporting unsolicited Town reads as Town is a well-established Mafia theory point.

----

While I still don't understand the case on Pads (if it's what hito is saying in 954, it's kind of weak tbh), I still would like an answer to 939.
Voting Idiotking is still like claiming scum.
RedCoyote is still scum. [/redundant]
Maemuki is still scum.

[Vi]

E-Penguin is still likely lurkerscum.

please provide a more enthralling reason to believe e-penguin is scum aside from lurking, and please explain why you don't agree with my conclusion in regards to imaginality and penguin not being scum together.

vi jumping off the elvis bandwagon is also terrible

elvis has focused exclusively on combating vi's reason for voting her, which is strawman-ish considering other people (read: me) have provided more compelling reasons to lynch her. sorry e_k.

and i'm pretty sure redcoyote is not scum after his last post

On Internet Penguin: All of his posts, even after adjusting for not being able to catch up, are terrible - yet he has a tendency to make them at convenient times. Need I explain post by post? (there are only twelve)
Saying that he's not scum because known scum was fifth on his wagon is somewhat unsatisfying, although with your megapost I can get an idea of where you're coming from.

I'm no good with associative scumtells tbh. I've seen your style of analysis done before (with Xyl pegging his targets even with flawed premises), and I would like to agree with the conclusion of your play-by-play (two of EK/

Mae

/IK/EP are scum and one of charter/Pads/

RedCoyote

/Sotty7 is scum). I don't feel equipped to analyze or argue the nuances of imaginality x puppy/E-Pengy, but I'll let elvis_knits sort her own way through it and rejoin the wagon accordingly. For now, it shouldn't tear at your inner being that I'm voting a different scum that I can identify more easily.

and i'm pretty sure redcoyote is not scum after his last post

And it would hurt too much for you to tell why? Aside from "he agrees with me", of course.~

[Vi]

Quick EBWOP:

Saying that he's not scum because known scum was fifth on his wagon is somewhat unsatisfying,

This isn't what you're saying at all, although that was my initial impression before I read the longpost :\

[Vi]

And to me it looks like Vi just wants to keep me alive until late-game so he can use me as an easy lynch target. Aside from his arrogant "lol hes a nub" attitude, he has no particular reason to say that I'm just an easy target, and therefore not scum. Why are you so hellbent on not making a case against me, even if I am scummy, Vi?

I see your posts as you make them and can plainly see that you're digging your own grave. Which would be wonderful, except that people who do that have a nasty tendency to be Town-aligned. Rather than go through the arduous process of scanning each of your scummy posts and interpolating whether they're more likely to come from a Town or scum standpoint (eventually resulting in either no conclusive read and having to "waffle" or resulting in a mildly Town read and having to "defend obvious/indefensible scum"); I simply ignore you and work on people that I can read more easily and accurately. If everyone else wants to lynch you in a game this size, there's probably good reason for it and (as seen yesterday) there's no sense in trying to do anything else. That kind of lynch may not help me directly, but it will help ten to twelve other people.

This is the same reason that I avoided the CSL wagon yesterday until I could not avoid it. And in the end, the CSL lynch turned out to be a good thing - we got rid of a majority-vote distraction to the Town and got three flips, all of which were pretty revealing. After seeing that and Xyl's process-of-policy-lynch in BoTaM, I'm reconsidering my position on early-game lynches. For right now though, if you would rather I wagon you for everyone's sake instead of pursuing people I think are obvious scum, you can keep waiting and being disappointed. In the event that you are alive in the late game, you're welcome to bring that accusation up again if and when it happens.

As far as insulting your play and meta goes, I will absolutely hold this game over your head.

[Vi]

@Xyl being scum in Death Note Mafia: I don't understand how that changes anything, especially considering you were an SK and had a vested interest in killing everyone related to me.

ok, so you just gave an excuse based on an incorrect assessment of what i said, ebwop'd to say "woops," but didn't find a better excuse or change your mind? am i missing anything here?

Like what I said in the rest of the post?

but it does. you should know very well that leaving a burgeoning wagon on a scumbag will look terrible for you.
seems like vi thought he had some safe distancing from elvis to do, then all the sudden found out it was actually a dangerous wagon and now he's trying to make everyone change direction.

On this point, you can deal. I join wagons on my own points, and since I gave your post the tl;dr treatment the first time it went by, I left for my own reasons.

actually a bigger factor in my read is your stance on

[RedCoyote]

oh okay that'll take care of itself

---

[Surprise at flips]

falls in to the oldest tell in the book (though not quite praising there being dead mafia, it's pretty much that).

Why would it not make sense for TownVi to say that, especially since I was pretty vocally set on two scumgroups D1?

Also, crypto was obviously not killed by the mafia. Don't pretend like they would have killed him, he was so antitown and scummy it's not even funny. Plus, another huge scumtell, to actually use the logic of "well, NK'ed townie thought EK was scum, and I think EK is scum, so EK must be scum" is laughable. This is all aside from the fact that the mafia obviously wouldn't have killed him.

Aside from the lack of reasoning behind "The Mafia obviously didn't kill crypto", have you ever been in a game where someone dies and nobody bothers to look up why, only to see that they were dangerously close to finding scum? Like SocioPath here, me here, me here, and me here.
Or are you claiming to have shot crypto? It would make things easier.

Get your nose out of the Mafia wiki and into actual games.

Ok. I just looked at votecounts and saw your name on them to get that list. However, the particular wagons you were on is not the point, the point is you clearly don't have a problem with easy wagons.

All in all, you ignored the main points of how you had no problems with easy wagons at the beginning of the game, but then later tried to stay off wagons with the justification of them being easy wagons.

So you just admitted to being wrong (considering those wagons WERE in the early game!), but you're still hammering on your point.

Playing dumb won't make this go away. Directing vigs and scumteams is absolutely scummy. First off, directing vigs is scummy because it allows for people of unknown alignment to influence a very powerful protown role. If the directors aren't town, then obviously what they're saying isn't in the towns best interest.

Obviously they have to agree with me first; it's not like I'm stealing their shot.

You just seemed pretty eager to hammer CSL and get it over with, like you were afraid his pleas might be believed and people might lose interest in him.

...you can't

possibly

believe this.

I take note that you choose to go on about why I thought Hoopla was town, rather than the important point of how your giving up your 'scum' read of her is a complete contradiction to your stance on townies calling other townies you gave at the beginning of the game.

Nonsensical.

Really don't have much interest arguing this, since no one else will see what I see, and there is more than enough incriminating evidence without arguing this.

No, please do it. You're already pushing other terrible arguments against me; I'd love to see what you do with this one (aside from demonstrate that you don't know my Town meta).

Your case against me is based in things that scum

don't do

. This must be what it's like to IC a Newbie game <_<

---

@sigma 1000: Do you disagree that you have been on very easy-to-join wagons exclusively? (mine included)

[Vi]

tl;dr
charter's case on me is a bunch of bogus tells even he can't believe in
roflcopter's case on me is that I'm not listening to him as much as he would like
sigma's case on me is

[Vi]

I don't think this flip makes you look good, vi.

Now that that's said,

Bailing on the elvis wagon after she'd gotten to L-5 or so? Very dodgy.

You have been going after elvis since day 1, but that could be some early bussing.

fake

----

I dunno, charter went off in completely the wrong direction in /in-vitational 4 and made such a bogus case against me that I was convinced he must be scum, but he was town.

We've met.
Whoever charter starts tunneling on may as well resign to it.

[Vi]

This clarification was made to elvis as well (so it's only fair here): Mason partners are CONFIRMED SCUM.

You're going all-out on the trendy and subversive front, aren't you.

So now I have no idea what's going on with outguessing the setup. In any event, we can continue lynching Maemuki.

[Vi]

Also OOC what special powers do Mafia Masons have that regular Mafia don't? They already have night-talk and know each other's alignments so what's their deal?

It's ambiguous. Either they were Masons within their own Mafia (implying that they would show up as such to Role Cops to provide a measure of immunity) or they were Masons across opposing scumgroups, which is how I read it. We don't know, and tbh we don't have a need to know as long as we keep lynching scummy people.

(in before "scummy for setup speculation WIFOM before telling people not to speculate on the setup")

@charter: *presses Mute button*

[Vi]

Vi, once again, explain how you went from scum hate people calling others town, at the beginning of the game, to well, I give up on my scumread because everyone else says she is town, at the end of the day.

There is no disconnect here.
Are you suggesting that because someone calls someone else Town, I should blithely follow along regardless of my own opinion?

Also explain how you clearly had no problem with easy wagons at the beginning of day one, but then at the end, you tried staying off easy wagons because they were easy wagons.

The game state is different at the beginning of the game and the end of D1.

@zoraster: oh okay

[Vi]

I acknowledge that I'm not as confident in my position as before.

How come?

Her rebuttal. I underestimated the strength of what I had latched onto. I'm too easily talked out of being right.

Mae, Scum reads please.

Why bother?

[Vi]

Unvote

Vote: Maemuki

Vote: Maemuki

I have a Mason reading between him/her and Elvis_Knits.

Hop wagon easy!

(Bonus points for Zakeri's :?y reasoning - though it's the hardest stance he's taken so far)

weaboo

----

It's pure, unadulterated

scum

meta.

Fixed.
How does this contrast with

Sotty (who I think is suspiciously playing not up to her capacity)

?

[Vi]

Hop wagon easy!

Your hypocrisy/noise is getting really irritating. You hopped onto two of my wagons on D1 (ConfidAnon, CSL). Explain to me how that's different from what I just did with your Mae wagon.

I had pointed out a couple of times prior to my vote that CSL was indefensible. (plus yes, I did it to end the Day)
Contrast your votes today.
*Vi - oh Vi needs the pressure as public opinion starts swaying that way on its own
*Maemuki - what they said

Do you have any opinions that are

counter

to what everyone else believes? (aside from me=scum)
Do you believe I was correct in calling out Zakeri?
Do you have any opinion on E-Penguin, now that you've called him out for a prod?

[Vi]

I'm not that sure about you. I have more town-reads, but I don't really want to get into those in detail, as I don't want my town-reads night-killed. Let me get back to you on this point after I've done more homework.

Have you had a problem with your Town reads getting killed in this game? (Other than e_knits)

[Vi]

In this game specifically? I highlighted two of hoopla's posts as 'excellent' and 'hoopla's right' respectively. It wasn't just me who had a pro-town read on her, obviously, but I certainly thought well of her posts.

In general (not specifically from my experience in this game) I agree with the conventional mafia wisdom that pro-town lists provide a good starting point for mafia NKs, especially as we may not have 2 mafias in this game after all. Feel free to disagree with me and tell me why I should provide a townie list.

1) The Mafia can already tell who's unlikely to be suspected without your input
2) People (and I'm notorious for this) do this thing called "change their minds"; i.e. the people you don't suspect today may be the ones you suspect tomorrow
3) It would in this case prove that you actually HAVE stances on people

[Vi]

vi, why do you feel the need to bitch at people for joining the wagon YOU ARE ON?

future reference mostly
plus i've been in one of my more pleasant moods recently

[Vi]

Please note that if you type vote in bold and then bang your head on your keyboard, I'll probably understand you mean to vote for fhqwhgads

Your OCD is weak.

----

@Idiotking: I value lynches on people who are respected players more than I value lynches on people who are "usually lynched". Judging from recent events, "value" should have a 'd' tacked on at the end. As it stands, voting you is a cop out.

----

Vi seems to say he lynched him even though she had a town read on him, and that he'd do it again. That's not really how you're supposed to feel.

You can stick it to me if you nominate me for the title "Town Scum"
That's the entire purpose of pushing policy lynches. They're going to hurt regardless of alignment, and in this case CSL was a twelve-vote distraction. Placing a thirteenth vote to get rid of it didn't help my scumhunting efforts much, but it helped twelve other people out who couldn't

all

have been scum.
(In my pipe dream world, any lategame VIs would be best off following my vote around, which WOULD help later...)

----

I want to know why she dropped her case on SpyreX -- vi was going after him hard D1 but that's gone now.

I don't want to comment on it for a while. It's not anything to do with meta or ongoing games though.

----
@@
----

Pads, did you actually say anything in 1092?

----

And, we've already been over crypto was clearly not a mafia kill.

There are like a dozen other people who are more of a threat to scum than him.

And how would you know?

[/drama]

[Vi]

Hay sigma, is Maemuki scum?

[Vi]

*puts on cowboy hat*

This is a lie until it enters your avatar.
What do you think of Maemuki's AtEs?

----

So Mae - really briefly and without many words, who's Town and who's scum?
I read Coyote-scum and Infinis-scum; anyone else?

Cut: What pops said, but more nicely.
pops, what do you think of Mae's AtEs?

[Vi]

Either Mae is scum or was in the wrong place at the wrong time as town.

Her recent push on me, actually makes me think it is the later.

But how many games has Mae played in here? IIRC she's not a n00b. This defeatism as had been said, is not a townish attitude.

Even after cutting your post down to this it says virtually nothing.
Go ahead and explain the bolded.

[Vi]

I'm sorry my skills don't rise to yours Vi.

*Pitch shoots lasers of Awesome from its eyes*

Is Maemuki Town or scum? Does the defeatism outweigh her eagerness to see you lynched?

[Vi]

Vi, quit using that n00b word too. It's not nice. "Noob" is already borderline, making zeros out of the letters is bad enough. You were new once too. So the urban legend goes.

There's a difference between "newb" and "n00b", and I'm pretty sure you know what it is.

I'll stop saying "n00b" when everyone else on the site stops saying "VI", as they're basically equivalent.
In the meantime, more playing Mafia and less playing Morality Police would be wonderful.

@fhqwhgads: I don't think we're going to slow down from 48 pages to 40 pages on your say
tbh I would rather you read the whole thing and gave your summary opinions tomorrow, as what you've posted so far is just history.

[Vi]

Yes one is more pretentious, n00b more than newb, both to me mean the same thing. Not derogatory, fact, new or not new. But this is a political argument, I'm not changing your mind and you are not changing mine.

If you'll excuse me for linking to this particular webcomic, I believe what's on the other side of this link clears it up fairly well.

The newbie issue pales in comparison to all the ad hom attacks Vi has made shall I quote them?

*words words words words*

Notice that regardless of how you may feel about me or my patter, this long post does nothing to further the Town Win Condition.

If you like, we may have a discussion about this postgame.

[Vi]

:pops fan club:

I know some mods take the view that it shouldn’t matter how well their players perform, but I am not one of those mods. Perhaps it’s a failing. I don’t know.

It depends on the context.

[Vi]

I think I still would have condemned calling other players n00bs, with zeros if I recall correctly, regardless of alignment. It's disrespectful.

...which to a degree is the point.

[Vi]

I disagree with Vi, I like zoraster's lurking policy. It would have replaced out Bridges & Baloons in the one normal I played where he won as scum by just posting, "I might post later, but i have some real life problems right now", thus breaking the spirit of the lurking rule. The spirit of the lurking rule isn't "police everyone's play and make them have a certain playstyle", it's "remove the ambiguity between a choice not to post in the thread and people who are too busy to post". I don't want people cracking the spirit of the rule in half by posting snippets about funerals and weddings, if they don't have enough time to post game content they need to be replaced.

The game you mentioned also had a moderator that didn't appear to believe in an activity policy. He might have noticed if he checked who was active more than monthly.

[Vi]

B&B said after the game that he posted something about "woe is my poor meatworld life" everytime he got prodded. If he was prodded more frequently he'd have just done it more frequently.

which is the point where the mod says "look, you've been out of the game for a month, what say I give you one less thing to think about"

The exception is for mods that allow malicious lurking, which I guess you have to know about ahead of time.

[Vi]

^^^^ itt vi recommends uber subjective methods of lurker policy.

...

Hey, let's cut to the chase and have the mod kick out killa 7 at game start.

yes

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think Vi views lurking as simply a strategy. I view it as insidious to the whole of the players having fun.

It's both.
Lurking is a strategy that kills games if overdone. While I don't prefer it, I don't want to outright disallow it.

Aside from rigorous prodding - which don't get me wrong, I like - I think there are two different ways of dealing with lurkers that I'm interested in trying out.

1) BaM's policy. It doesn't punish lurking so much as flaking. (If you don't post for seven days, you've probably flaked.)

2) A variant on Phate's policy where prods are done by request and can be met with replacement if they are not picked up... but players can pick up prods and still not post. Again, this comes with a few hitches:
*the mod has to actually show up onsite to notice prod requests
*the mod actually has to replace people who don't pick up prods
...but other than that, it allows lurkers essentially full rein to do as the Town lets them.
The downside is that it's quite possible for a Townie to take advantage of this and essentially fail at life, proving once more that Mafia is a team activity. This is why you proactively find good players before the game begins.

it's not particularly subjective,

It's more subjective than every other policy I know of.

[Vi]

Forced replacements are for

flakers

(not lurkers).
Someone who posts "I'll post later" is by definition not a flaker, because they're evidently still onsite. However, IPL IS a weak form of active lurking... which I don't think the mod should deal with.