NY 118 - BBM's Large Normal Mafia (Game!)

[@.@]

Im conflicted.
Dana posted that he actually read someone, who just so happened to die, and got innocent.
I just don't believe it x_x.
I can somewhat understand the no role block.
I can not believe that you would search the one person mafia targeted to kill, especially since you just posted that Wraith should be lynch and you would lynch him any day of the week. Why didn't you invisitigate Wraith if you wanted him to die? Why DavidParker when their were more people who were suspicious?
Confused and conflicted is what I am.

while the post is decent, it lacks a vote, and sadly bunny seems to be very hesitating on this subject. While in his arguments, everything points to Dana being scum. Now I wonder, what would cause this hesitation.

This could be because Bunny doesn't really know if he should bus. This could be because bunny doesn't know if it is wise to try to mislynch a cop, but I can't really see this post coming from a townie. I could certainly see a Dana-Bunny scumpair (ironically Dana is likely scum for the reasons Bunny gives.

VOTE: Bunnylover

This post is decent? This post REEKS.

1) It doesn't take into account game scenario. I don't know if a situation exists where I get counterclaimed in a large normal as a cop and I DON'T investigate the person who counter-claimed me. Can you think of one? Secondly, we had two cop claims d1, and we just had one proved to be BS. Does it really make a whole heck of a lot of sense that they were BOTH fake? It doesn't to me. This post reads as disingenuous to me, because it really feels as if bunny is looking for a CONCEIVABLE reason to pile on dana, but nt a likely one, or a good one. He's not thinking in depth in his arguments, and suspicions, as I would expect a town player to do. It seems like he's short cut arguing. "Well, here's an argument the town might run with." without putting in the leg work to see if it makes complete sense given the state of the game. "Hmmmm isn't THAT convenient" instead of "I wonder what a town player and a scum player would do given this scenario."

2) I agree with flinter that the tone of this post is off. If Bunny really does not believe that a town cop would do what dana did, then he should absolutely be voting dana. The post seems like he's throwing dirt out there, and hoping it will stick. This has three possible scenarios in my mind. First, he is scum hoping to get the town cop lynched and then be able to say that he wasnt on the wagon, or he is scum trying to bus, and is leaving his options open based on which direction the town goes this post could easily be seen as the basis for a vote if a couple others jumped on to the logic "I was against dana all along" or he can backpeddle and vote for someone else if it doesn't seem to be gaining momentum "I was dazed and confused etc."

I like my

Vote: Bluebunny

For now.

Also, hi everyone.

[@.@]

note, third scenario is "He is town who is not very good at his job. And I should be voting for

Bunnylover

not bluebunny. I have no idea where that came from.

Post 1, ebwop 1.

[@.@]

Fine, since you guys don't seem to have a problem with outing PR's and letting them live. The reason I want him lynched despite his claim is because my role is that of Cop and I don't believe his.

FYI

If you look back on Day 1, you will notice I never voted for Dana nor do I want to since he claimed cop. I don't think Dana is scum, but I'm not the best scumhunter so.....

How does you never voting for him mean anything? Secondly, I don't like the whiney "I'm not good at mafia why you pickin' on little ol' me" part of this post. If you don't think he's scum, and were just asking questions, I don't believe you would have phrased your post the way you did. It clearly was not a questioning post, but instead an attacking on. If you post "I just can't believe that X would happen to do this as town" and you don't think it's an attack UR DOING IT RONG.

o.o You also missed the fact that I was the one who posted what I believed the mafia would do knowing that Dana had claimed cop, I think of both scenario, but sometimes to trap scum you must leave out details, although that doesn't work if others point out the details you leave out.

Utter crap. What we're discussing is "What a town cop would do" vs. "What scum claiming cop is likely to do" Given that the town play when counterclaimed is probably 100% to investigate the player counter claiming you, that makes the scum play the same, meaning its a complete non-tell. I didn't point out any details. You made a quasi attack based on something stupid attack, and I am pointing out that you are a) Not thinking about the game in much detail, and b) Poisoning danas well in a manner which is only advantageous for scum.

2) Don't want to lynch a cop without asking their opinion on what they did. Or it could be the 4th option, I want to know why he did what he did as I stated before.

Yeah, but that's not what you DID. You didn't ask his opinion, you attacked him and stated that you didnt believe that town would do what he did. That is an attack, its not a question, even if you phrased it as such. The fact that you're now trying to claim that it wasn't an attack at all is EVEN MORE suspicious to me, because it proves my point that your post was a textbook example of a fence sitting attack. You clearly attacked a player without committing to the attack, and now you're trying to claim you weren't attacking him at all. that's hella scumtastic.

Anyways I want to know his opinion, I believe its in this game that I said I don't vote unless I am positive the person I am voting for is scum, or someone has brought a case up that I can't see to be wrong. You all can believe what you want, but it seems like your just looking at my post from a scum view and not a townie view. But w/e, its ya'll votes

I don't know if this is true, and feel free to link me other games so I can verify this claim, but if it is...it's just...stupid. There's no other word for it. In mafia, your vote is the only tool you have to find out who the scum are, to apply pressure, to get people to react to you. Combine that with the fact that there is almost no scenarios in which a lynch is EVER a sure thing, especially in the first few days of the game.

Furthermore, I think that fact makes my point that its an attack even stronger. If you're a player who legitimately doesnt vote, then that is AS strong an attack as I can see you making. F is right when he says that literally the only thing it's missing is a vote. the fact that youre trying to claim it wasn't an attack is fishscumtastic.

[@.@]

Xite, what do you think of my attacks on bunny. They are distinct from flinters points, and I think I'm going a bit more in depth. Comments are appreciated.

[@.@]

I am not "trying to look townie." Add omgus to your list of scumminess. First of all, I didn't at all ask them to comment on me, I asked them to comment on my attacks on you. Do you think there's something wrong with drawing a players attention to something you think is important? I would be interested to know why. Second of all, a player commented on attacks on you, while ignoring what I think to be a more in depth, substantiated attack. I would like to know if that player does not find you scummy at all, or if that player simply finds the specific attacks against you to be lacking. Do you think that is not useful information to have when reading both you, and the aforementioned player? Again, I would be interested to know why.

1) It was the awful whiney tinge of the comment that piqued my interest. It seemed to be deflecting my inquiries by saying "Eh, I don't really know what I'm doing anyway, therefore I don't have any responsibilies to face because of what I post. That kind of deflection of an attack is fairly suspicious to me.

2) Your post, by any reasonable look, was not a questioning post, but an attacking post masked as a questioning post.

3) Who said anything about a scum cop? What are you talking about?

4) Your thought process hinged on why it was "too convenient" but didnt take into account the fact that a cop or a scum player who is falseclaiming cop, would be LIKELY to claim an investigation on a player who counterclaimed them.

5) Way to ignore my call for proof.

I don't get what you mean by committing to my post. I want him to answer/respond to my post, I am going to keep bring that post back up if he ignores it, their is no reason you should say I'm not committed to it. And where did this "not voting" thing come from? I said I don't vote unless im positive about someone or someone has brought up their case, I never said I never vote (Double negatives :<).
Also I don't understand what it matter if my post is questioning or attacking. I want answer for them, you can think of it as however you want, but since I posted question in my post I'm going to say its a questioning post.

I clearly explained this. You are fence sitting. You made an attacking post, and then claimed it wasn't one (are continuing to claim it, actually) this means you have the option of saying "Hah, I knew he was scum" if he flips scum," and "I wasnt for that lynch, I never attacked him" if he doesn't. Town has absolutely no reason to set up arguments in this manner. Town should be attacking people they think are scum.

you're done "arguring" with me? Why? Please point out where I have misrepresented you and where I have been "not listening to you." I don't think I am guilty of either of those things. Its really convenient to stop arguing with someone who is kicking your butt, but also I'm not really sure its the attitude I would expect a town player to have.

[@.@]

For what its worth, xite, I wasn't asking you to comment on me, but I'm glad you did. More interaction and more people stating positions explicitly can only be helpful.

I don't see how I'm accusing him of "classic scumtells" I assume by that you're referring to the "original jeep tells." I don't think I've mentioned them. The only thing I can see that I've accused him of (in terms of "classic scumtells") is OMGUS, which to me is the least important part of my attack. Its amusing to me that you accuse me of using "classic tells, when I don't really BELIEVE in classic tells. There is only underlying motivations of the actions players take, that is to say "Is what player X is doing more likely to be done by scum or town in the given scenario we are in." which is pretty much as far from the definition of a "classic tell" as you can get. For the record, in simplified "TLDR" form, this is what I find suspicious about bunnylover:

a) His initial post of the day is a quasi-attack. What do I mean by that? He puts suspicion on a player in a manner which means he doesn't ever commit to it. He has spread suspicion on dana, without himself being personally invested in the attack. This gives him "outs" which a townie player usually doesn't think about giving themselves. He can either claim to be for the lynch, based on the quasi-attacking post, or against the lynch based on the fact that he didn't ever vote the player. (It is worthwhile to note here that he does claim he never votes (which is stupid in its own right) but has refused to link me games to prove this fact.) In my mind, there is no reason for a town player to play like this right now. You either question dana, or you attack dana. You don't do both in the guise of questioning him, and then claim you were never attacking him. That's not how a townie behaves in that situation.

2) He's deflecting with "oh, woe is me" type comments such as "I'm not the best." and "I don't want to keep arguing with you because you're not listening to me." even though I have clearly quoted and responded to everything I said. This type of response in my opinion is generally used by a player to get the limelight off of his posts. It is a "I don't really know what I'm doing so don't worry about me all that much" type of post. It stinks. It's scummy, because town should want to argue with other players to determine who is scum, not just want people to leave them alone.

3) This is perhaps the most important point. His posts take on a "skimming" sort of post. He seems like he is posting things that are not well thought out, but that he thinks might get the town to look at people. The "Why do you want to seem townie so bad" comment is a perfect example, as is the quasi-attack of dana. He is not taking into account the scenario of the game, or even what is likely to be true. He is giving the APPEARANCE of scumhunting, without actually scumhunting, which is a process which takes into account what is likely to be true. The fact that he attacked dana without thinking of the reasons why dana might have chosen that particular player. The not knowing about the cop claim, the OMGUS attack against me. These are all indicative of a player who is trying to throw dirt and see where it sticks, and that is not a mindset I would expect of a townie player in his situation.

I need to go reread his day one play in order to see if it is similar to this, but this raises significant red flags in my mind, and "I think he might be new town" doesn't dismiss them for me, because he could just as easily be new scum, or just scum.

[@.@]

okay, so if you haven't figured it out, here's what went down last night.
1. Someone killed nhammen. Who knows who or how.
2. I investigated David Parker. I did this because he also claimed cop. I expected to get a guilty on him, knowing my role was cop, but it turned out he was just making a gambit, as has already been stated. ALL SMART COPS WILL ALWAYS INVESTIGATE THEIR CC'S.
3. Maf killed David Parker (presumably). They did this because doc (if any) was told to be on me, and DP was the other cop claim.

These all make perfect sense for who did them if nhammen's killer was a vig. And they still pretty much make sense if the killer was another scum faction or SK. Any questions?
And honestly, yesterday, I was trying to make it seem like I would investigate wraith, just to throw mafia off in some way.

This kind of speculation is simply awful. There is no way to know that it was mafia that killed DP. There is no reason to think there is a vig. There is no reason to think there is not multiple scum factions, or that there is a SK. Basically, this post is useless, but looks like its being useful. It also comes ridiculously close to seeming like Dana has extra information that the town doesn't, number three and the explanation in particular. This whole post just reads to me like he knew the scum play, and then inserted qualifying information later.

Huge Huge FOS: DANA

[@.@]

1) I honestly say it as you were trying to draw attention to yourself like, "Hey look at me, I'm been productive!" That how I saw it.
2)Your second question confused me.
3)That wasn't what I was doing, I was just saying I could be wrong. Nothing more, nothing less, if I'm wrong I still have to take responsibility and everything.
4)You said scum cop lol, I got confused by that too.
5)I didn't remember that DP claimed Cop, so I can't argue their.
6)The proof is in this thread, read it, I'm too lazy go find it.
The rest of your post:
Stop assuming things. I have not posted he is scum, or that I am getting a scummy vibe for him, or a townie vibe from him, I haven't said anything. I asked him something because I forgot DP claimed cop, which makes perfect sense to invistigate the person who claimed on him who was lieing. I just simple forgot which is my fault. You say town has no reason to set up the kind of arguement you said, thats true. I'm not setting that up, because I never thought of it, because I don't need to think of it because I'm town.
I said I'm done arguing with you because your going to believe what you wish to believe. You honestly think I am a mastermind scum who is trying to set up an elaborate plan so I can go back to it later when I'm in trouble. It's irritating me that you don't simply say, "Oh, that could be right, you could just be trying to do this. But I believe you are trying to do this." What you are doing is, "STFU. I know this is what you are doing, why don't you just admit it and get it over with." That is how I am seeing you address me and frankly I won't be able to get through to that.

1) No, it wasn't that at all. Please respond to the two justifications I gave for why I did it, instead of just saying "WELL I SAW IT THIS WAY *crosses arms*" Which is about as unhelpful as you can be.
2) What second question?
3) That's the point though. Your post didnt give you the opportunity of being wrong. It allowed you to say "well, I was right" regardless of how he flips. That is exactly why it is suspicious to me.
4) I never said scum cop, and if I did, it was a typo. My bad.
6) To lazy to find other games where yo haven't voted, when thats integral to your defense? I'm sorry, but the burden is on you to prove that you don't usually vote, not on me to verify such a ridiculous claim.

Answer me this question. Do you really think saying "I can't think of a reason a town player would do this" is not an attack? Do you really not see how that statement, which you essentially made in you "questioning post" is basically saying "I think X player is scum." these two things mean the same thing. If you cannot think of a way town player X could do action Y, it means that the only motivations you could see for doing action Y are scum related, and therefor you think player X is scum. Do you really think that isn't an attack at all? If so you're crazy.

I'm sorry I can't take your "I wasnt intended to do that" comment seriously, as everyones motivations are in doubt. The only thing I have to go on is what you actually did. You see that, right?

I said I'm done arguing with you because your going to believe what you wish to believe. You honestly think I am a mastermind scum who is trying to set up an elaborate plan so I can go back to it later when I'm in trouble. It's irritating me that you don't simply say, "Oh, that could be right, you could just be trying to do this. But I believe you are trying to do this." What you are doing is, "STFU. I know this is what you are doing, why don't you just admit it and get it over with." That is how I am seeing you address me and frankly I won't be able to get through to that

Ok, this is fucking awful. Now, all of a sudden, accusing someone of fence sitting, and throwing dirt on players (things that scum are forced to do EVERY GAME.) is now a "MASTERFUL SCUM PLAN." That kind of statement is called something. it's called a strawman falacy. You are pretending I'm accusing you of something I'm not, to make it sound more ridiculous and easy to defeat. I am not accusing you of being a mastermind, I am accusing you of doing things that scum do ALL THE TIME.

I'm sorry that I'm irritating you, but my job is to look at what you're saying and doing, and look under that to what I see to be the likely underlying motivations. If I see scum motivations as being more likely, then I am going to opperate under those assumptions, because that is all we can do in mafia because it is a game of imperfect information. Your post was an attack. You claimed that a player did a non-town thing. If you didnt realize that it was an attack, then you should honestly stop playing mafia, because you are far out of your league with anyone on this site.

[@.@]

@Singersinger: 1) You have Jdodge to read, in addition to me. I don't think being a replacement makes a player particularly more difficult to read. Look at JDs posts, and see what you think of them, then compare them to mine and see what you think of them.

As for the xite thing, I already explained that. Xite came into the thread and denounced a different persons attacks on Bunnylover. I thought that the case I made (which you and everyone else in this thread who has posted has ignored, by the way.) I thought the case I was making was more substantial, and more in true, so I wanted to know if Xite was denouncing all attacks on bunnylover categorically, or if he had just found the initial attack by the other player to be unsound. I would really like everyone to comment on my case, xite just in particular was relevent because he was already talking about bunny lover.

[@.@]

However, judging by the flip of Mafia Goon with no adjectives attached to the name, I'm guessing we're only dealing with one scum faction . . . which should make things easier to look for connections.

Awful awful assumption, with a side of setup speculation and a hint of might know more about the set up then the town should for good measure.

I've seen mods name their scum factions. I've seen mods NOT name their scum factions. I've seen both of these things multiple times, with one AND two scum factions in normal large games. Protip: Dont look for flavor to give you information about the setup in a NORMAL game, hell, any mod worth their salt won't give away information with flavor in a themed game either. (safe claims, reverse setups, etc.)

[@.@]

I'll be honest, I didn't read day one AS carefully as I should have. I mean, I read it, as is pretty obvious from my knowledge of the game so far, but I skimmed a lot of it. If you could give me a post number to look at to see your case, I would appreciate it.

I'll ask you the same thing about what I've been posting about bunnylover in the last page and a half or so.

[@.@]

Also, I don't know that an OMGUS deserves a confirm vote (if it did, you'd already be voting for bunnylover,) even if that is what wraith did, but I dont see how what wraith did is OMGUS. Can you OMGUS a dead player? I don't really understand your statement.

[@.@]

@confid: That seems mainly like a problem of translation, to me confirm vote basically means "Ok, I'm absolutely sure now." I don't agree with your reasoning, however. "No reason given" is not the same as "no reason" There are many reasons why a player may include no analysis with a vote, only some of them are scummy, and only one of them is OMGUS. I don't get the vibe at all that he was voting you because thought he sounded suspicious, or suspecting you because you suspected him, which is the definition of OMGUS. Basically, the reason you OMGUS as scum is to deflect attention onto the person attacking you, or to get them lynched so they wont attack you anymore. I don't see him trying to accomplish either of those things with that post, especially considering he had a couple votes today besides yours. If anything, the most interesting thing about that post, to me, was his defeatist attitude "I'm done defending myself, y'all can go to hell" basically. I'm not sure if I think that is a townie comment or a scummy comment at this point, though. I'll probably reevaluate when I read your case.

@dana:

What I was attacking was not the speculation you actually did, per se, but rather the way you did it. It almost seemed like you put information down and then added the qualifying parts as an after thought. Like, "if there are X mafia then this makes sense (also if this is the setup, or this." the phrasing of the post was very odd to me, and that's what drew my suspicions.

[@.@]

Gorrad, if I am so full of BS, surely you wouldn't mind saying specifically what you disagree with me on, rather than just saying it is true. I am obviously not married to my case, and I could be persuaded its wrong, but I certainly wont be by someone simply saying "Wow, you said a lot of crap there." Please give me a list of things you think are "BS" and why, and we can talk about them.

As for the "primary" thing, its not really ALL that important, as I was merely saying I didnt like the post because it seemed like it was hinting at extra information, but the most common example you're missing is when a mod names the two groups "Mafia" and "werewolves," which I am sure you've seen before. I can search for examples tomorrow when I have more spare time, but I have seen that many times, and I have also seen just "mafia" used to describe both teams, so as to not let the town/both scum teams know the setup. I'm an alt, so I don't particularly want to give you examples from games I've played in, but if you give me time I will gladly comb through the rest of the completed games to find an example. :-/

[@.@]

I can respect that you don't want to go after me right now, and really that's not what I'd like you to do. If you want me to vote for wraith, which I am not opposed to, I have to read the case against him, and read him in isolation first, it would be helpful to know what about my case you disagree with, as I do think that bunnylover is fairly scummy.

I am not interested in getting into a pissing contest with you, I just want to know what parts of my arguments against bunnylover you find invalid, and either scrap the case if you are right, or convince you, if I think you're wrong. I think just focusing on one player on day 2 of a large is a pretty piss poor mindset.

[@.@]

I don't know that I agree with your first point. Town players are allowed to change their minds, and to me the first wraith post you quote reads pretty much like a town player changing his mind based on new evidence (especially since it was day 1). I can see your point that he's setting himself up to go either way on it, but really I don't think thats particularly more likely (or even more likely at all) then a town player just deciding that he has changed his mind. Is there any particular reason why you think it is?

@Xite: I wasn't saying "look at me." I was saying "look at these attacks." In fact, I would have said the same thing even if someone else had posted a case I found valid that was being ignored (don't expect you to believe that, since its not verifiable, but FWIW)

In what sense were you saying "Why have these posts been ignored?"

[@.@]

Forgive my ignorance, since it's been a while since I've played with any frequency, but I am not familiar with the abbreviation "AtE"

[@.@]

This day is a scumteam's dream come true. They have an easy target to wagon and can refute anything I say by saying "Oh look at that flailing obvscum."

Hey town, look at me, I'm scum. Lynch me. Stop sitting on your pointy iron fences and vote me.

Are you being serious with this? I'll vote you in a second if you are legitimately claiming scum.

[OOG RANT]If you ARE town, then stop this stupid bullshit. I agree with most of the stuff that shanba has said, but stop being useless. If you're a townie and you're going to be lynched, that's fine, take it like a man. You can go down swinging, pointing to who you think are scum. Defend yourself against arguments and do something useful. If you're lynched anyway, then spit on it, and go find another game in the queue. Seriously. I hate this "oh poor me bullshit" more than anything else in a game of mafia. Fucking PLAY mafia. No one gives a fuck if you think you're being treated unfairly. [/oog rant]

[@.@]

Xite is a(likely town) idiot. If that was a daykill that ends the day, doubly so. You couldn't think of a better use for a day kill then right there?

[@.@]

I'm pretty sure I like wraith's reaction to the (assumedly) fake day kill.

[@.@]

Ugh, my reads on this game are weak because of my own lack of activity, but Wraith seems like a no brainer lynch at this point, which makes things a bit easier. Once I have more free time, I'll make a full case on some of my other scum reads.

Why hasn't this post gotten any attention? This is scumtastic.

[@.@]

Are you serious? It's an extra lynch, basically, and you just wasted it on day 2 on a person that might be town? ::uberfacepalm::

[@.@]

UA, my main problem here is I don't see any scum motivation to fake the kill like that. The way I see it, it's just not an action I can see a scum making in the circumstances. What would he be trying to do, exactly? If he's scum, as you seem to be implying, the best reaction he'd get out of wraith is "bah, go town." (assuming he didn't think wraith is in a competing scum team, which is possible, but not exactly likely), which doesn't seem to be like something scum would go out of their way to do to draw attention to themselves.

There are, then, in my mind, three scenarios: One, he is faking it as town, he is telling the truth as town, or he is telling the truth as scum. Considering I think your analysis of his reactions and statements after the day kill is spot on, I'm pretty sure I think he's town faking. However, if that's the case, its a pretty elaborate fake that we have to wait til the end of the day to see if its real. (for the record I've been playing a long ass time, but I've never seen a day kill happen at the end of the day, with the day killed being still alive.)

Furthermore, I really do like the way wraith reacted to the day kill. Shrug. If nothing else its given us a bunch of interesting information.

[@.@]

I think...I'm just going to let that situation sit there...for a while. I don't know fully what to think about it, and I probably wont until the end of today, so I think I'm just going to let it ruminate in the back of my mind.

However, it HAS helped me come to a conclusion about wraith. I do think his reactions are pretty town (that's not how I expect scum to react to a daykill, unless he was considering it could be fake, which would require a level of sophistication from him I have not seen thus far.) So I am not happy if xite is telling the truth, however, it seems like we shouldn't lynch him anyway.

In other news, mysterio is more and more ripe for a little pressure in my mind. His last post screamed "I'm trying to not play the game...Man, its a good thing someones already being wagoned and his lynch seems an inevitability!" which is not a town way to be playing the game, to say the least.

I'm also liking every post dana makes less and less. It really seems like he's just coasting through the game, not taking it in. If you do a quick read of his posts, every single one of them seems kind of tone deaf, as if he's not really paying attention to the game, and is overall disinterested in doing things to find scum.

Still don't like bunny for reasons stated. I'm probably willing to end up pressuring any of those three at this point. This is part of why I hate large games, I feel like there are so many people who I am not paying enough attention to.

[@.@]

I don't like robbs last post, but I do like some pressure on mysterio.

unvote, vote mysterio

[@.@]

Are you serious? It's an extra lynch, basically, and you just wasted it on day 2 on a person that might be town? ::uberfacepalm::

Uhm.... everyone in the game "might be town" first off. This screams that you're trying to look townie as scum.

Please learn2read, instead of attacking anyone without thinking. Clearly the point of my post is that you should have waited later than day 2. Day 2, your reads are not solid, you don't have a very good idea of who is town and who is scum. Something like an extra lynch is so valuable, and you threw it away on an early game read. Obviously everyone "might be town." Obviously that wasn't my point. Learn to not be dumb.

[@.@]

Xite, I'm curious. How am I scummy from my reaction to your charade? My reaction was exactly the opposite of what you said you were looking for. You said you expected to get attacked. I said that I didnt know what to think, said you were likely (stupid) town, said I like wraiths reactions, and moved on to different people. What there is scummy?

[@.@]

So one scum reaction was attacking you and the other was not attacking you? Are you even listening to what you're saying?

I await the full case with baited breath, bubsie.

[@.@]

So one scum reaction was attacking you and the other was not attacking you? Are you even listening to what you're saying?

I await the full case with baited breath, bubsie.

No, I am reading posts, I was hoping to draw attacks on me so that I could see what the attacks consisted of and who the obvwagoners were. But I was also just trying to see reactions, of which yours did stick out to me as scummy.

But what was scummy about it? Don't you see what I'm saying? If you're saying X is scummy (obv wagoners and people attacking you.) and my reaction was the opposite of X, (thinking through it, and deciding that most likely both you and wraith were town, and moving on) then I think you need to rethink your argument. Please tell me what about my reaction is scummy? (Hint, I asked you this before and you said "you had a scummy reaction...Which...doesn't answer my question.)

[@.@]

Are you serious? It's an extra lynch, basically, and you just wasted it on day 2 on a person that might be town? ::uberfacepalm::

It was things like this, it was really only scummy because it seems like a cry for town points, but I'm gonna have to ISO you as well... damn, these cases are gonna take forever.

I don't like robbs last post, but I do like some pressure on mysterio.

unvote, vote mysterio

And this post... covering the bases to get on whichever wagon takes off?

I've got a couple questions for you, I am going to bold them. Anything not bolded is probably rhetorical.

Why do you think everything people do is "crying out for town points?" It's seems like I've heard you use that phrase at least four or five times, and I don't understand. I saw you do something stupid, and I posted as such. Furthermore, even if it is "crying out for town points"

Don't you think townies should try to avoid being lynched? Shouldn't they actively try to be pro town? Can you please explain to me the difference between "crying out for townie points" and "playing in a manner that is pro-town."

Furthermore, I had an in depth analysis of your post, and you think I'm scum based off of a knee jerk "oh wow, why did you just do something that stupid" post I made? It's not like I ignored the substance of the game to make that post.

As to your second quote...I quite clearly, in my analysis, said I had three players who I found scummy, and that I would be perfectly willing to pressure any of them. I then voted for one of those players. I really don't understand this point. Am I supposed to not say when a player does something right? I don't find robb to be particularly townie, but he hasn't done anything I think warrants votes the way the other three in my list did.

In a large game, is it not normal for me to have a couple targets I think might be scum, and be willing to pressure anyone else if they end up looking scummy?

I am perfectly content with my mysterio vote for the moment, but would be willing to vote robb if he continues to give me the bad vibe that that post had.

What is your problem with that stance?

[@.@]

I can't understand how you all can still believe I'm scum after all the smart posts made in my defense by people like Wicked and Shanba. But if you all want to be gullible, be my guest.

This post is silly. It reeks of AtE.

This isn't an appeal to emotion so much as it is an appeal to authority "LOOK! Shanba and wicked defended me and they wouldn't be wrong!" as well as an ad hominum. Sorry, this isn't really game relevent by I like to get fallacies correct.

To make it more game relevant, I think SS is so town that it hurts.

[@.@]

oh, prozac, I don't know why you can't just play ignoring the fact that you can edit. It's not really effecting the game or you, so long as you don't use it. I trust you.

[@.@]

Kise, you're being more than ridiculous. Calling someone as not just scum, but the GODFATHER is an unbelievable strange claim.

[@.@]

A Reread Of Day 2 (with less Wraith, since I've been focusing on him)

In the case of @.@ vs. bunnylover, @.@ wins.

This is a worthless comment. Some of the other stuff you said had value, but saying "who wins" in an argument in mafia is rarely useful. Remember, better arguers can still be scum. a useful comment on the bunny-@.@ exchange would be tell us what you thought (if anything) it says about the alignment of either player.