Mafia 121 -- Picking Simplicity Game Over


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Post Post #452 (isolation #0) » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:57 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Note
: I took some notes as I was reading through the game. These are mostly just my impressions of what went on so far. I don't expect y'all to read them if you're not inclined to. I put them up to give anyone who is interested more insight as to how I coming into the game.

tl;dr = mothrax, Nacho, Sudo, and Xine are all good wagons to start today based on different ideas. Jack and eldarad are solid town reads.

Spoiler: Game Notes
Snake 61 wrote:Welcome to the wonderful world of Mafia Scum with Jack...
Brother, you ain't joking. :D

---
Azazel 84 wrote:
Vote: antihero


[...]

I don't want him lynched but I think I need to see where this goes.
Why did you feel the need to say that bottom sentence? This seems way too safe. It's like you preemptively don't want anyone overanalyzing your vote. You're far too focused on defense for someone who hasn't really posted anything.

---
UK 105 wrote:I'm getting more bad vibes from him than LMP. Not enough to actually VOTE
And why is that? What are you waiting for?

---
Jack 112 wrote:Azazel is scummy, his lmp vote is very bad. He calls him for bandwagoning in a 20p game with the second vote? When his own vote is a bandwagon? He has problems with lmp changing his rvs vote 4 pages in? He thinks antihero is scummy but finds lmps vote for him scummy? Too much.
Agree. Agree. Agree. Agree. Agree.

---
LMP 116 wrote:You have to be kidding! Wow, that is hilarious. You scum buddies are funny.
Wait. Since when do you think Azazel is scum, and who is he scumbuddies with? Why is it funny? More precisely, why are you dismissing it as hilarious without addressing it?

---
Azazel 117 wrote:First of all, connecting me and antihero as scumbuddies is hilarious. Tell me, if I was scum with him, would I be that egregious in demonstrating it? In fact, wouldn't it be more beneficial to continue bussing him for town cred? Or are you calling me an idiot?
The WIFOM! The false dilemmas! The paranoia!

Azazel: My Life as a Mafia Goon


In stores this Christmas.

---
Jack 121 wrote:^^Not the sk
:thumbs up:

---
UK 129 wrote:
Unvote, Vote Lowell
I do not like this vote, especially not after your little, "I'm not going to throw my vote around willy-nilly" comment.

---
Jack 157 wrote:Interesting, and what's the thing that stands out to you second most?

Here's a tip though, when you're scum try not to pretend like you read the game when you actually just stopped at the first excuse for a vote you saw.
Although I don't disagree with you and Vas for calling Xine out for this, it doesn't make Azazel any better. Just FYI.

---

Wow. I've played with Empking a handful of times, but I think post 177 is the most I've ever seen him worked up. I don't know if this is good or bad, but it is unusual. If I had to pick I'd say bad though.

Oh, Jack. XD

---
UK 259 wrote:So, your proof of being town, Snake is...

that you're town? You...don't plan to show us? Just kinda insist and hope we go away?
How many times are you going to beat Snake over the head? I think everyone gets it (and you go on and on long after this post, btw).

---
Sudo 269 wrote:Personally, I'm not a big fan of Jack. Ever since the "claim" post, he's done almost nothing (and I know that's the pot calling the kettle black), except post short responses of very little content, usually piggybacking off someone else, presumably to keep his activity level up. If anything, I'd lay odds that the claim is completely fake, and that he's scum.
Wow. This is it? This is all you have for us after all that's happened? Somehow I doubt you have no opinion on the game other than Jack. The post could've been made on page 3 and had the same effect. What a joke.

---
Glork 292 wrote:Completely and utterly unwilling to believe that the *ONLY* read Miller has of a 12-page D1 happens to be that the bandwagoned guy is scum.
Completely and utterly willing to agree with you.

---

Good catch by Jack (who else?) in post 301.

---
Glork 324 wrote:EBWOP: If Snake flips town, though, I will be all over some of these people like stink on shit.
Will you make good on this?

---
Haylen 341 wrote:So, Antihero, basically what you're saying is that I only commented on Mothrax's post because it was about me? You see, if I see something scummy, I will mention it. I don't care if it's about me, someone else in the game or casper the friendly ghost. Scummy is scummy.
It seems to have stirred you up a bit, hon. I was about to write it off due to Snake's flip, but then you kept on Antihero, UK, and AGar, and now you look kind of panicky.

---
Jack 354 wrote:No, why? People often don't mention wagons. Where's Agar's solid stance on the Empking wagon? He's assuming that snake is scum his scum buddies are avoiding the wagon why? Why not get on it?
Apples to oranges. The CJ wagon was wholly dependent on the Snake wagon. You couldn't separate them. The CJ wagon wouldn't have existed without the Snake wagon. That's the difference.

---

Here's a good post 373 from LMP. Juxtaposing all these posts together doesn't Haylen look so good. A quick question though, have these two played together before?

---

Although it's not usually used for this many players, here's a scumscale for everyone:

[
Town
]--Jack---eldarad---Glork-LMP--Vas-Lowell-Haylen-Nikanor-[
]-AGar-Empking--UK--Antihero--Sudo-Xine--Nacho-mothrax---[
Scum
]


I read the game during the night and have a few opinions over what to do next. A few positions I should get out of the way in regards to both Jack's claim and yesterday's lynch. Jack is probably one of the few people with the balls to make a claim the way he did. I wouldn't have done that. If Jack would've asked me whether or not he should do it, I probably would've told him not to do it. That said, I think it was a worthwhile start to the game, and my read only verified this. Jack has seemingly done more than anyone else here to keep the game as a whole going and keep everyone on their toes. In regards to lynching Snake, I thought it was, for the most part, a pro-town thing to do.

Luckily I'm replacing into a fairly blank slate. I should hope everyone has essentially a neutral read on this slot given the lack of substance. Let me get started with a quick jump into who I think is town. As I've already mentioned, Jack is seemingly on top of this game like no one else. I've been impressed with eldarad's posting. I think that should tip a point or two in his favor. Nacho's not given him the same credit that I am, but a majority of his reads do coincide with mine. Yos was actually going to be recognized as well, but instead I'd say either Glork or LMP is probably heading up the third spot.

That's the boring stuff though. Who are the scum? Based mostly on posting, I've come to the conclusion that I could go in three directions:

mothrax - The best and most promising direction is towards mothrax. With a whopping ten posts in this game, a large percentage of them are spent defending himself from sticking his neck out for seemingly no reason. Although he's had very little impact on the game as a whole, he feels the need to jump on Haylen in post 300 completely out of the blue. Prior to this, he seemed content in playing under the radar. CJ's flip may have affected this read somewhat, but it doesn't change the fact that as soon as Jack raised an eyebrow, mothrax definitely panicked a bit. He's been very quiet on his suspicions and reads, opting instead of follow others and popular wagons. I do not get a good vibe from him at all. If there's one player I had to place money on as scum, it would be mothrax.

Nacho - A second player who deserves just as much attention is, unfortunately, Nacho. I say unfortunately because I like Nacho and feel bad that he had to replace into Azazel's slot. From the word go, Azazel puts his foot in his mouth with post 84. He cuts his own vote off at the knees for no reason by saying that he's voting purely for reactions (which generally means, "I don't take ownership of my votes, please don't look at me too hard"). In post 117 he starts throwing out the WIFOM, paranoia, and and false dilemmas at LMP with little justification. If I could sum up Azazel's play with one word, it would be overreaction.

Sudo & Xine - A third route we could go would be more of a pure lurker route. All these players have been inactive, but Xine and Sudo have really taken the cake this game. Sudo has talked about one person this entire game: Jack. He has a total of four posts, all of them, except his confirmation post, are complaining about Jack in some way. He actually asks Jack to elaborate on a post, but he never follows up on it. Strange given that Jack is seemingly the only player Sudo has noticed this game. The problem with Xine is the same although it looks a little different in the onset. She clearly has more posts (still a low ten total), but there's just very little analysis in them. I completely agree with her Azazel vote, but as Jack and Vas point out, it's completely out of place and awkward. Her last four posts were basically just quoting someone else. Neither of these players have shown enough interest in hunting scum for my taste.

Vote: mothrax
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Post Post #494 (isolation #1) » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:53 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Vas 453 wrote:RC IS ALWAYS SCUM, HE DID THOSE REPLACE IN WALLS THERE TOO.
<3

If you're asking seriously about my read on you though, I was happy to see you push Xine when she tried to sneak in that vote on Azazel as though she had been playing the game actively.

---
mothrax 454 wrote:@rc: I came back from an unexpected vla and started playing the game, calling out scum. Would you rather I just lurked all game?
Do you think Haylen is still scum?

And why are you feeling sorry for yourself with these rhetorical questions?

---
UK 461 wrote:@RC: Oh yeah. My Lowell vote was pretty fucking justified on D1 and continues to be such. It wasn't a "willy-nilly" vote, he was just claiming scum with that post. I'll thank you to not accuse me of otherwise.
I don't see it. Perhaps you have some history with him, so I'm assuming this is mostly a meta read. I don't see anything particularly wrong with Lowell.

---
LMP 468 wrote:I don't believe we've played together in any other games. Why does it matter?
Because Haylen has a certain personality to her. I was just curious how that would change your read, if at all.

---
Haylen 482 wrote:I was voting Empking to make a point.
Oh, Haylen. Why would you say this? Ugh. Can we just lynch you and AGar? Would that be okay?

---

I'm with LMP on AGar here. I like Jack's point, but I don't think I see what Nikanor/Vas/Haylen are seeing.
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Post Post #528 (isolation #2) » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:12 am

Post by RedCoyote »

Lowell 522 wrote:I seem to remember everyone throwing a fit when jack claimed cop/doc, and that LMP got bandwagoned for even half-heartedly defending it. But that thread has been mostly dropped today, suggesting it was a lot of crocodile tears.
This is the only thing worth reading from the previous page. I agree with it 100%. The only person you called out was Glork though, Lowell. Was there anyone else you think should be singled out?

I just don't really follow Nacho's case, and this is coming from someone who doesn't care for UK so far this game. I don't get the CJMiller meta argument, and I don't get the how the Lowell thing is bad (she's just wrong about it).
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Post Post #540 (isolation #3) » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:22 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Thanks for that, Nacho. I understand where you're coming from now much better.

Also I second Nacho's question in the post above. The weirdest thing about UK's reaction is that she thinks Nacho is sincere. If Nacho is being sincere then at least these two points are clearly valid (I'm kind of flip flopping here, but I needed Nacho to explain it to me more clearly).
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Post Post #559 (isolation #4) » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:26 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Why is it that everytime I check this thread I feel like the same 3 or 4 people are posting? How about a little IIoA for everyone:

AGar's last post was 11/13, 2.5 days ago
Antihero's last post was 11/9, ~6 days ago

eldarad's last post was 11/12, 3.5 days ago

Empking's last post was 11/15, yesterday
Glork's last post was 11/11, 4.5 days ago

Haylen's last post was 11/13, 2.5 days ago
Jack's last post was 11/15, ~6 hours ago
Lowell's last post was 11/13, 3 days ago

LMP's last post was 11/14, ~a day ago
Nacho's last post was 11/15, ~6 hours ago
Nikanor's last post was 11/15, ~a day ago
RC's last post was 11/15, ~a day ago
Sudo's last post was 11/14, 2 days ago
UK's last post was 11/15, ~6 hours ago
Vas' last post was 11/10, 5.5 days ago

Xine's last post was 11/14, 1.5 days ago
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Post Post #659 (isolation #5) » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:23 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Nocmen has done a fairly good job replacing in. I feel like I'm in a bit of an awkward position. Both Nocmen and Nacho have been doing pretty good, but I didn't like either of the players they replaced into.

Sigh.

Unvote


There are lots of lynches we can support, but Jack has put some effort into explaining how Antihero is kind of going through the motions. I willing to follow this lead for right now. I'd also really be interested in Xine still.
Vote: Antihero
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Post Post #729 (isolation #6) » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:33 am

Post by RedCoyote »

Oh, for goodness sakes.

Mod
, you are as much of a prick about voting as I am as a mod. You're an old man though, so I guess you get a pass. Luckily I've got a vote here that you won't need you reading glasses to see.

Vote: Antihero


---

Everyone else: I'm due for a good post. I've been kind of hoping someone would get quicklynched so I wouldn't have to think about the game for a while. I do need to give a firm position on AGar though. I've been putting it off. Expect it tonight, ~24 hours. I really just wanted to logon to address some of the games I'm running.
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Post Post #791 (isolation #7) » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:48 am

Post by RedCoyote »

Hmmm... I'd rather see what happens to Nacho tonight without UK than with UK. Sorry, hon. We're taking a chance either way.

This trumps everything else today, I think.

Unvote

Vote: UncertainKitten
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Post Post #887 (isolation #8) » Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:20 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

eldarad 838 wrote:Why do you automatically discount the possibility of UKmafia fakeclaiming SK to buy a Day or two? That's a one-way bet for mafia, surely - why do you think it is so unlikely that you jump to "ramifactions of lynching the SK" as if it was a foregone conclusion?
I read up to here and stopped. This speaks to me. UK is always emotional and mean-spirited when things don't go her way, so I don't see any reason as to why she shouldn't have been lynched yesterdar. I certainly don't see why her bandwagoners should be more likely to be scum than town for the reasons LMP has given.

I'm not a hard sell, ladies and gentlemen. I like lynching, and I don't mind following. Unless I see something particularly incriminating from someone else, I have intentions on finishing the job here. I probably shouldn't sound so foreboding though because I don't know when I'm coming back to the thread. I don't want it to seem too out of the blue though, especially given that I haven't gotten a chance to make a post yet today.
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Post Post #893 (isolation #9) » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:16 am

Post by RedCoyote »

The only unsettling thing about LMP's wagon is that Nacho is missing from it.

Why do you think this is, Jack?
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Post Post #905 (isolation #10) » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:34 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

He's probably the only one who will.
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Post Post #916 (isolation #11) » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:33 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Quit acting so arrogant, LMP. You may have had a feeling she was an SK, but there's no way you could've known. If you think lecturing people on "how to play the game" will get you anywhere, I think you'll be surprised at the result.

And I don't remember you pushing at her, SK or otherwise, before Nacho began his crusade.

---

The only unsettling thing about LMP's wagon is that Nacho is missing from it.

Why do you think this is, AGar?
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Post Post #930 (isolation #12) » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:24 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Ah, I missed a post.

Vote: LynchMePls
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Post Post #955 (isolation #13) » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:23 am

Post by RedCoyote »

I should note here that I feel pretty good about Haylen as town now. It took me a while to come around to it, but I think the LMP/Haylen thing from earlier wasn't distancing.

I want to go back to a couple of LMP's earlier posts though.

LMP 630 wrote:
Unvote
Vote: Nocmen


Your buddy Antihero is for tomorrow.
LMP 673 wrote:I'm fine with Antihero wagon. Nocmen can wait to tomorrow, apparently some people are fooled by his "look at all this catchup stuff, aren't I pro-town (nevermind that it is completely contrived and full of contradictions/falsehoods)".

Unvote
Vote: Antihero


@VV: Your AGar case is not at all as damning as you think it is.
LMP 783 wrote:I don't think we should lynch Nacho or UK. Antihero is still a better lynch.
LMP 823 wrote:Based on the speed of that lynch, I guarantee you there is 2 scum on the back end. That puts 2 scum (possibly 3) in {Xine, Empking, RedCoyote, Lowell, Eldarad}.

[...]

Antihero is also a great lynch if we still want to go that way.
LMP 875 wrote:When I'm gone look at the people on my list from the UK wagon, Antihero, and sadly, Jack if you all decide to pull your heads out of your asses and actually hunt scum.
(Note: The above would be Jack, AGar, RC, Lowell, Xine, and Empking)
Mod 935 wrote:
LynchMePls - 8 - Jack, AGar, Empking, VasudeVa, Lowell, Nocmen, RedCoyote, LynchMePls


LMP pushed Antihero hard. Very hard. Almost too hard. He pushed him before his wagon gained steam and after. I want to write off distancing here. I think it's a dead end. I think it was totally misleading. Post after post LMP wants it known that Antihero is his target. He really wants this lynch. Nocmen, on the other hand, is tagged on towards the end. Perhaps in a "crap, I better bus a scumbuddy" move.

Nocmen, Empking, Eldarad, Lowell, and AGar all catch some flak from LMP over the course of the day.
Vas and AGar are both defended by LMP over the course of the day.

Of this big group, I'm largely going to ignore Empking, Vas, and Eldarad due to my pretty good townreads on them at this point in the game. Together with my reads over the course of the game, I'd say two scum would be either Nocmen and AGar or Lowell and AGar. AGar mostly gets his own category because he's the only player that LMP was inconsistent on. In post 673, before UK was lynched, LMP tries to dissuade people from voting AGar. In post 875, AGar is now a potential suspect because he voted UK and LMP. That change in heart seems peculiar because AGar is thrown into a group of seven potential suspects. He also didn't list these suspects like he did in post 823. AGar and Jack are the new players that LMP includes in the jump from post 823 to 875, and Jack is town. I just do not like the connection between these two players.

Vote: AGar


I'll also accept a Nocmen wagon given how nearly every post that LMP made was "Nocmen needs to die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (...but lets vote Antihero first...)" or a Lowell wagon given that he's most likely to be scum from post 823.
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Post Post #956 (isolation #14) » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:25 am

Post by RedCoyote »

Thanks for replacing, DH. I look forward to playing with you again. I don't think you're in a good slot though. I need to go back, but Nikanor and LMP were bundled together quite a bit back in D1 when LMP caught some major heat.
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Post Post #966 (isolation #15) » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:25 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Nocmen 957 wrote:RC: How am I suspicious because of my vote on LMP?
You (and possibly DH as well) misunderstand. I'm coming from LMP's perspective. He claimed you were suspicious because you voted him and UK. He pushed Antihero too hard, and then threw your name in later on after his wagon started to gain steam. That, coupled with my opinion of mothrax, the only scumread I had when I replaced in that hasn't been proven wrong, leads me to believe that you could very possibly be LMP's partner.

---
DH 959 wrote:I would actually say that early-game arguing is indicative of a scumbuddy relationship. There is just something way too fishy about Anti's vote on LMP...it doesn't seem natural in the least, and he was in the perfect position to bus. I think LMP just tried too hard to get Anti lynched, ready to say "Hey! He was scum, I told you so!"
And, naturally, this would lead me to believe that Nocmen is a townread for you then, right? I took the time to go back and find this post. I'm unimpressed. I already thought I would be because I didn't noticed it during my original read through of the game after replacing. Antihero had a clear lead up to voting LMP, and he had voted different people prior.

I also see that his last post was on 11/27 though, so I think
he's way overdue for a prod
if he hasn't gotten one yet.
DH 959 wrote:Actually, I don't think his vote on UK tells us anything. Voting for a claimed SK is a town and scum-motivated action, so what makes it more scum motivated to you?

[...]

And why is AGar voting for LMP indicative of him being scum, but Antihero voting him in a bussing position not?
As I said above, I'm coming at this from LMP's perspective, not mine. You and Nocmen misunderstand. I'm trying to gauge what he's saying that's true and what he's saying that's completely concocted. At first LMP wanted us to focus on the back of the UK wagon (this didn't include AGar), then, at the last minute, he says the people who were on both his wagon and the UK wagon (this did include AGar). His name is slipped into the mix despite the fact that he was trying to cool people to joining an AGar wagon the day prior. It's inconsistent.

As far as Haylen goes, the LMP flip just triggered it for me (hence the word "now"). Prior to this, I was unsure about Haylen, but warm to the meta argument about her.
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Post Post #975 (isolation #16) » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:30 am

Post by RedCoyote »

I'm not worried. My boy Vas will stand up for me. Isn't that right, Vas?
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Post Post #976 (isolation #17) » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:32 am

Post by RedCoyote »

Glork 971 wrote:IMO, we should lynch RedCoyote and investigate Antihero tonight. If Antihero's protown, we let the scums nightkill his useless llurking ass. If he's scum, we lynch him next.
Well in
MY
o, we should lynch AGar and investigate Nocmen. What do you say to that, buddy?
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Post Post #992 (isolation #18) » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:16 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Nacho 977 wrote:RC, you said you were uncomfortable with the LMP wagon because I wasn't on it.
And now, you're pushing an AGar wagon when I'm directly telling you that I'm opposed to it.

What's the logic behind this?
I hadn't realized you had already given your results. LMP seemed like the most rational choice for your investigation, which is why I was weary about you not being on the wagon. Xine was a good alternative though.

---
Nocmen 979 wrote:RC: What do you think about people following (as I mentioned with Lowell), or actively lurking (Lowell, Haylen, Anti, etc)?
I would refer back to here for all my latest reads. There's a good chance Lowell is scum. I don't really get a scumvibe off of Haylen or Antihero. If you're asking me how I feel about these actions in general, I'd tell you they're both crappy. Following, as Lowell touched on, and as Empking, Xine, and Vas are blantantly doing, is acceptable to a degree. If everyone is a leader then nothing gets done because everyone is pulling in a different direction. Compromise, therefore, must be made. Ideally you'd want people willing to independently explain why it is they are following X (X being a person or a proposed strategy) as well as elaborate on differences of opinion they have with X when they arise.

I'm a little surprised there are folks more willing to vote me for speaking against the grain than there are folks willing to vote an Antihero or Lowell for

---
AGar 984 wrote:Nacho didn't talk us down here.
:roll:

I mean, look it, it's a valid strategy. Let Nacho and Glork do the thinking and then vote when they tell you to. They're both probably town so, you know, as long as you're not picked, you're gold. When I say you I'm referring to anyone left.
AGar 984 wrote:RC, you seem set that I'm scum because of someone else's actions. Since when was that in any way shape or form... logical?
Since that someone else happens to be confirmed scum?

---
Nacho 990 wrote:I have my doubts that Antihero is scum, but y'all can lynch him when I'm dead and gone.
That's what I've been trying to tell you!

In all seriousness, it's your show at the moment. Are you ready to lynch?
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Post Post #1004 (isolation #19) » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:47 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Oh, well, I guess you didn't want my claim.

Signed,
RC M.D.
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Post Post #1008 (isolation #20) » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:01 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

No, I'm kidding. I just wanted to make you feel bad.

Good luck, Xine.
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Post Post #1182 (isolation #21) » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:37 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

I really enjoyed this game. I'm glad I got to replace in, because it was a really entertaining read. I wish I could've been utilized more, but Nacho handled his role impressively. The town was, for the most part, on top of things. Nocmen (mothrax) was the only scum I felt like I had gotten the better of, although I came around to LynchMePls toward the end of his wagon and start suspecting elderad after his hammering me. LynchMePls was seemingly on defense during his entire time alive, which probably put the scum off on a bad foot from the starting gate.

But gg all, and thanks Mod!

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