Mafia 121 -- Picking Simplicity Game Over

[Nocmen]

Hello all, I'm taking over, I'm going to read and hopefully get through this tonight.

[Nocmen]

Comments I've seen about my read in the order they happened:

I have no idea what to think about Jack's "claim", I know I can't take it seriously because it's so early and would be stupid for him to claim like that.
Glork and Emp go after this claim and response by LMP, for suggesting it's a scum gambit?
Glork also thinks Nikanor is a buddy with LMP. I don't think LMP's suggestion here is too scummy at all. Especially when Glork seems to contradict that saying "just because it's not posted doesn't mean no one thinks it"
eldarad joins the LMP wagon because he "has the urge to jump on a wagon"
Antihero votes nikanor because he thinks post 57 is a deflection
LMP then votes for anti-hero. At this point I'm getting really weird vibes about a LMP-nikanor connection.
Not liking nikanor's defense of antihero's vote on him.
UK would rather lynch nikanor first as opposed to LMP
Azazel goes after LMP for his vote on Antihero
LMP's defense seems to be "that's funny".
Azazel's exchange with LMP seems a bit weird, but I still think it leans more towards LMP as scum.
I find this post of Emp very interesting:

3. Because you're the scummiest player so it looks like he's trying to avoid a connection.

LMP had only made a few posts by this point, and none of them looked especially scummy to me. Want to explain yourself, empking?
.

I'm not certain what you're asking but...
1. There's a reason that point was last.
2. LMP liked Jack's claim. Town was like "Ugh" but LMP had to guess as to the feelings of the town with nothing to go on (he posted first) and he guessed completely wrong.

Especially 2.
UK votes for Lowell, Glork promotes it, but that also seems like it could be sarcasm on Glork's end.

LMP redeems himself slightly when he explains the possible reasons behind Jack's claim gambit.
eldarad calls out Nikanor for not criticizing Jack when he critized Glork for the same thing.
Nik keeps his vote on Emp for "craplogic"
Yos thinks LMP is actually pro-town
Xine votes Azazel for voting Antihero but not wanting to lynch him. I feel that this is a bit of craplogic
Vasudeva says he prefers competeing wagons, and also thinks that LMP-Nik is a scum pair, or at least LMP is scum.
UK says to lynch Lowell. Still don't know why at this point.
Yos thinks that promoting LMP's questioning of Jack's claim of a scum gambit gives LMP town creds.
I find Yos's defense of LMP weird at this time. I don't know if Yos would do so much obvious buddying with LMP, but it's possible still as a gambit. Though if I had to take a guess, I think that Yos and LMP are of opposite factions, but I don't know which of those two would be the scum.
The Emp-Yos exchange I feel Yos doesn't have too much to go against Emp with. I feel Emp's concern is that of a town's perspective.
Nikanor thinks there should be more votes on Emp.

I'm just through Page 8, I reached that point where I need to take a break from reading for a bit, so I'll get through at least another 5 pages, if not 8-10 within an hour.

[Nocmen]

Starting with Page 9:
Jack votes Emp for....distancing with Yos?
Then he switches his vote to Agar for...what?
Snake comes and realizes that he still has his RVS up...this is page 9.
UK now goes for Snake or Lowell. I'm presuming this is for lurking at this point.
Vas votes Emp for not knowing Emp's meta.
Snake says he hasn't dissappeared when he shows complete ignorance towards the game in general.
LMP goes after Emp becuase....yos says so?
Emp claims that snake isn't as scummy as LMP.
Agar jumps on the wagon without much reasoning.
Xine gives a small defense to Snake I think? From saying not posting much could be playstyle, and unvoting. Or is Xine's unvote a vote on him? I couldn't tell.
Jack doesn't think Snake is scum. But I don't know why.
CJMiller comes in out of nowhere and votes for Snake.
Lowell, Glork, and Haylen all go for CJ now. Same with UK.
I'm curious as to why people are taking CJ over Snake at this time, is it because he did nothing but join in the wagon?
LMP seems to ask eldarad about Emp in the middle of the Snake/CJ wagons.
AGar goes for the Snake over CJ wagon, and Glork conforms to that.
Haylen's voting seems a bit weird with this wagon and seems a bit afraid to go after anything. Though I can't defend anything that "I" (moth) said, as I have no clue what he was thinking when he said what he did.
Haylen's post 346 seems a bit weird too especially with the fact that this is an open game, so speculation about a framer is way out of place. Once again, this post shows that she seems afraid to go on any wagon.
LMP joins this wagon late as well, with little to no actual reasoning towards the vote on Snake.
Jack jumps in late too...after he said he didn't see Snake as scum. Then votes me(moth) why? Then snake again.
Emp hammers. End of Day 1. Snake, CJ, and Yos all end up dead.

Third (and prolly final) part of my read through coming up next.

[Nocmen]

Okay so Day 2:
UK says Jack wasn't targetted by scum guaranteed? Is that a slip?
LMP gives a few quotes on Azazel and Antihero, but just says "this is funny, then he vanishes". I'm starting to notice that ever since LMP got called out for "thinking too much of what others think of him", he's been coming and going, posting a lot less.
Nik votes Xine for the fact that he thinks Xine could be either anti-town role?
A bit confused about Nik's comments with SK claiming and strategy.
Now UK wants to be convinced about Lowell? or is that meant as she is hesitant to drop the vote on Lowell?
RedCoyote says that me, Nacho, sudo, and Xine are all good wagons.
I don't see why Sudo/Xine would be something you'd consider less scummy than me/moth. A lot of the suspicions on moth has been from Haylen, something that I've seen doesn't make much sense right now.
Lowell and Emp vote for UK, seems more like it's a OMGUS for Lowell, not sure why Emp
Now Emp votes Haylen for being "opportunistic"
Nik and Vas vote for AGar for a meta comment. UK jumps on this too. zOMG Haylen as well. eldarad too.
Haylen seems to be a bit distracting in post 502.
Jack doesn't like nacho's case on UK, nor eldarad's vote on LMP.
Lowell votes AGar as well for the same reasons above.
Nacho gives more info about SK claiming and giving information about how a claim of SK would work in here.
I don't see too much on Agar besides that one post that could be a possible slip up.
Jack's case on Antihero is interesting, as well as with the fact that Anti dissappeared for a bit without posts.

And that's it.

What I think of things:

More Town

RedCoyote
Nacho
Glork
eldarad
Xine
Emp
Nikanor
Vas
Jack
Lowell
Sudo
Agar
Antihero
UK
Haylen
LMP

More Scum

Through the posts I've made, the one person that has really stuck out to me is LMP. I still feel that gut where I said in the first post I really felt as if Yos and LMP were opposite factions. Additionally, LMP seems to be following wagons, not adding much more when he goes on the wagons, and seems to have a more retracted posting style ever since this:

I'm getting the feeling I'm about to enter a catch-22. If I say "oh you're right, Nikanor is trying to avoid a connection with me" then I'm admitting that avoiding a connection with me is somehow scummy. If I say "No, Nikanor isn't avoiding a connection with me" then you'll only take that as further evidence that we're distancing from each other.

On the other hand, this is kind of scummy, in an "overly concerned about what people think about him" kind of way.

VOTE: LynchMePlease

[Nocmen]

Now UK wants to be convinced about Lowell? or is that meant as she is hesitant to drop the vote on Lowell?

The latter. I still think Lowell is scum, and being transparent about it. We just have other targets more likely to be lynched.

UK says Jack wasn't targetted by scum guaranteed? Is that a slip?

Pretty obvious to anyone with a brain. Please don't be dumb. Rather, why Jack would never be targeted by scum N1 given the situation.

Any other questions?

I understand with Lowell now, I really would like to hear more from him instead of him not contributing too much like he has been.

I don't think you can just assume that targetting Jack would be a dumb move. It depends how much the doctor was convinced by his claim, as well as whether the scum would be convinced of it as well. Taking out 1/2 of our power roles N1 would be huge for the scum.

[Nocmen]

I feel there were too many uncertainties to really make Jack a smart kill from a scum perspective. I think they had better targets. And clearly they thought so as well.

I also am not in the habit of assuming my opponents are idiots until they prove as such.

I never said it was a smart play to go ahead and kill him, but I wouldn't say it was something that was guaranteed going into N1.

Jack : I have replaced in before, this is the first time I have in a while, is there a problem you have with how I've replaced in?

I don't see where AGar has been too scummy. I feel that Haylen is quite scummy in her actions too.

I'd be fine with a Haylen lynch today too.

[Nocmen]

No I don't. I took a 18+ month break from this site and recently got back into it. I can try to see what I find.

[Nocmen]

Douple Post: Here are two games I found where I replaced in, a long long time ago.
http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?p=834588
http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... c28a1cbfd2

[Nocmen]

LMP: Maybe I was getting a bit too narrow minded during my read through on you. But I saw you as possibly scummy early on, something that I would have quickly voted and pushed for had I been there when it occured. It just so happened that you did a lot more scummy things since then that made me feel more that you were scum.

For the lack of reasoning, you're quoting posts, and adding a few words summary to that. There's not much real content you're adding, as well as the fact that people have said a lot of that before. I felt as if you just were quoting most of Snake's posts so it looks like you really did have reasoning for voting him.

With the Yos flip, I saw it as such:
Both scum: I don't think Yos would do so much buddying on LMP, while this is WIFOM, it's still very risky, because as soon as one of you flipped scum, it would lead to a large suspicion on the other.
Both are town: Yos defends LMP trying to get a different wagon for what he saw, and LMP takes it knowing he has at least one person that agrees with him.
Yos is scum, LMP is town: Yos would be defending LMP to try and get town cred, by going against one of the wagons early on, if LMP was to come up town.
LMP is scum, Yos is town: This one you can't look as Yos's defense too much, but LMP's responses to Yos seemed as if LMP was desparately trying to find something to grab on to.

As for you dissappearing, I'm not sure if you meant it as intentional or not, but if you look at your posts, you see that on the first day (Wed Oct 27) you post a lot, then you make your "catch-22" post and get called out for it. And then you barely have more than 1-2 posts per day since then. The only exception to this is Thurs Nov 4, which is right as the day is about to end.

[Nocmen]

@Nocmen: why did you disqualify "both are town"?

I couldn't find a reasoning behind both of them acting as their own will for that, as I'm just not seeing much of LMP's play being consistent with town. While it is possible for both of them to be town, I think it's a lot more unlikely.

And yes LMP, I do feel that I had a bit of confirmation bias towards you during the read through. With Yos's defense, I started to possibly show some dobut of you, that went away as I read through it more.

[Nocmen]

So basically you think that yos and lmp are of opposite alignment because you think lmp is scum and yos can't be his scumbuddy.

Well I know that Yos isn't his scum buddy.

LMP: How is that contradictory? I think it's very unlikely that both you and yos are town, isn't that what I said in both of those quotes?

Also, what say you about the rest of the case I have on you?

[Nocmen]

@AGar: If you don't do anything with meta, why did you think that we shouldn't vote you because you've only been lynched as scum twice

in previous games

.

So, please, I'm getting sick of this "I don't do meta" bullshit. At least qualify it with "I don't do meta unless I'm trying to save my own ass"

As for Haylen, she's been becoming progressively more scummy as she continues to be useless. At this point I would probably support a lynch on her...assuming you, Lowell, and Xine were dead first.

As for you claiming you think Haylen is scummy, the problem is you start out like that, and then it slowly devolves into "Haylen is a bad player". Jack correctly called you out on this.

And yes, I've actually seen several people who are unwilling to lynch Nacho. So yes, he's a popular choice for not lynching.

Hmm...though, actually, didn't AGar say something about how antagonism isn't anti town if you always do it? Or was that someone else? Because if it was him it is yet another ~*~convenient~*~ disrespect for his *NO META* rule.

- I said plenty of times - ego trip. I honestly don't think you guys would catch me if I was scum. If it was meta, I'd be like "I do this, this and this as scum, none of which I'm doing," to save my own ass. My ego about my past record shouldn't reflect a meta argument, considering all I said was "You won't catch me, no one ever does."

-

Why does it matter what it devolves to? The fact of the matter is that I have pointed things out - what is usually referred to as

a case

- and moved on to the rest. Yes, Jack called me out on it. I am not challenging that. I'm challenging why you voted based on that, and have ignored the fact that I have pointed out that while there was beratement, there was also scumminess.

- Again, you

completely

ignored the fact that I said I find town reads to be more communal than scum-reads.

- I asked since when was being antagonistic anti-town, Nik said only when you don't do it as town.

When you read selectively and choose to ignore the parts of my posts that validate what I'm doing, that's the kind of behavior that persuaded me to vote your wagon. You were on my "Don't lynch" list for a good part of D1, and even a bit into D2. But your vote was placed on one thing, as far as I can tell, and that's my case on Haylen is centered around her being a bad player (false) and a "convenient dislike of meta" (also false).

From the part bolded, AGar, you would be okay with basically raising a case, and then ignoring it? Do you have intentions of coming back to the cases? Or are you just throwing cases, seeing which are the most favored by others, and promoting them?

[Nocmen]

So you're voting UK for meta reasons, correct Nacho?

[Nocmen]

Gad, people are actively ignoring obvscum staring at their faces.

Everyone's next post will comment on my case on AGar or he/she will earn my IRE.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO EARN MY IRE. I CAN BE VERY ANNOYING. SRSLY. DON'T TEST ME.

(Read my #613 and #635 too which eventually led to the case)

The case on AGar is basically this:
1. He is tunneling on Haylen like it's his fucking dayjob and is actively ignoring other options. Basically, he is capitalizing on Haylen's uselessness, constantly attacking her and pointing fingers towards her to

appear

like he is scumhunting. Whenever questioned about his Haylen vote, he proceeds to repeat the same bullshit about meta being trash and Haylen being useless. His attacks are so obviously his go-to whenever the alarm 'I need to look like I'm scumhunting' rings in his scum mind. He continuously attacks Haylen on her uselessness(albeit true), and not updating his case. This is evidenced by his ISO #15, when AGar first attacked Haylen for not joining the Snake wagon and hoping over to the CJMiller wagon. Even after CJMiller and Snake's town flips, he proceeds to attack her, precisely to keep the illusion of scumhunt.

2. He has a very convenient 'Meta is Trash', which can more be accurately expounded as 'Meta is Trash, don't use it to defend other people or I will be mean to you.....except for this one dude named AGar who's scum meta is 100% reliable, and it can be used as defense if ever he is wagoned and if he was scum in this game you won't catch him ever so don't vote for him, ever'.

#1 is especially damning. #2 is pretty damning too. If you don't know who to vote for, vote AGar!

1. I disagree with this. I feel that Haylen is suspicious because she is actively lurking and even said she'd rather take the backburner D1. Maybe AGar is tunneling on it, but what is your opinion, Vas, of the case on Haylen, besides just attacking AGar for it? All I've seen is this:

On the other hand, Gawd, I think I'm seeing what he's saying on Hayl though. Doesn't read like bussing/distancing though because Hayl threatened to replace out.

And you questioning her about bussing.

2. I can't really comment because I've never been one to use meta too much, but I do think it is useful as a possible scum tell. I wouldn't use meta as a town tell though, but that's my own opinion.

[Nocmen]

I'm fine with Antihero wagon. Nocmen can wait to tomorrow, apparently some people are fooled by his "look at all this catchup stuff, aren't I pro-town (nevermind that it is completely contrived and full of contradictions/falsehoods)".

Unvote
Vote: Antihero

@VV: Your AGar case is not at all as damning as you think it is.

Are you just trying to flip between Anti and Me, and going whichever is most popular?

[Nocmen]

Also, AGar: What do you think of the other lurkers (Antihero, Lowell, etc) and do you think they are scummy?

[Nocmen]

I'm fine with Antihero wagon. Nocmen can wait to tomorrow, apparently some people are fooled by his "look at all this catchup stuff, aren't I pro-town (nevermind that it is completely contrived and full of contradictions/falsehoods)".

Unvote
Vote: Antihero

@VV: Your AGar case is not at all as damning as you think it is.

Are you just trying to flip between Anti and Me, and going whichever is most popular?

When the hell were you most popular?

I never said I was, but when people started saying stuff about Anti being suspicious, LMP switches his vote to him. Opportunistic?

[Nocmen]

Did Nocmen just call me opportunistic for voting Antihero? Rly!?

Pretty much, and it seemed a lot of the same way your vote was cast on Snake

[Nocmen]

Can you define opportunistic for me?

Voting when others show interest in voting, and when they show appeal towards lynching someone and voting for them, joining in.

[Nocmen]

Yes, I found it convenient that he switches his vote when others criticize Anti again.

[Nocmen]

I guess I can see that. You could say he jumped on the Anti wagon even though he hadn't ever expressed suspicion of him before. But why didn't he join the AGar or UK wagons then, tell me that?

He did suspect Anti before. He made a big deal about Anti in D1 and early in D2. And then focuses on me, and when Anti votes start, he votes him again?

[Nocmen]

Also, AGar: What do you think of the other lurkers (Antihero, Lowell, etc) and do you think they are scummy?

Lurkers who aren't actively posting don't bother me. I do believe that's antihero atm.

Lowell, while doing really nothing, at least has the balls to put his money somewhere. It's something. He's willing to give out reads that aren't completely reactionary to a wagon on him.

Others... I dunno. I'd rather just see this day through with Haylen lynched, if not, counterwagon on UK until someone dies. I could be prone to a vote-hop onto another wagon not of the people I have mentioned.

But yet, isn't Anti doing the exact same thing as Haylen? What do you think about his actions with Azael Day 1, do you think that's buddying?

You're being contradictory. Or defending Anti.

UNVOTE: VOTE: AGar

[Nocmen]

OPPORTUNISTIC MUCH?!?!?!?!?

If you think it is, feel free to say so. But if he's going and basically saying "I'll vote Haylen for this reason, but not Anti/Lowell/Probably others for the same reason", I have a problem with that.

[Nocmen]

unvote, vote anti

. The AGar wagon isn't happening-- and if it does, it'll be because a whole bunch of people show up at the last minute to be all "Meh, it's better than a no lynch," and we'll learn nothing from it either way. If we're going to lynch AGar (and we should), I'd like it to be with full participation. If we're going to purge someone at the last minute, it might as well be someone who has no intention of fighting back.

In other news, I still like vas a lot, and jack recently. nacho is getting better, UK is not. noc is going to be an excellent lynch tomorrow, since all he does is ask people what they think about lurkers, then do nothing with their responses. This game needs more engines than it has.

Well when a lot of today's discussion has been about lurkers, what's the issue with that, if I've been mainly discussing what's being discussed? You complain that it needs more engines, but I don't see you giving too much in here.

[Nocmen]

Nocmen, it seems like you like to ignore questions that are directed at you, why is that?

VV:

Now that you put it that way, I can really dig that point. Shit! So much for my solid AGar=town read. I guess I’m gonna have to sit on this fence for a while.
Thanks a lot

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here.

I'm saying I thought Agar was town, but now I am really wondering.

Which questions? I think I've replied to all of them that I've seen this game, whether directly or indirectly.

[Nocmen]

Nice to see you actually contributing Haylen. Apologies for me not being there at the end of yesterday, I was very LA since saturday evening.
Jack: That's a very curious quote from LMP.
LMP: Why do you think of the people on the wagon, Eld would be more likely to be scum than the others (with Emp obviously on top of them from your vote)? Especially because you haven't expressed any concern of him previously.

I really need to hear more from Anti and Lowell in particular. Especially Anti.

I don't know what to think if Nacho is the cop, whether that was the mistake or not. I still don't think that's enough reason to attack Nacho right now just because of that. It's the most obvious possibility for the mod error, but that doesn't mean it has to be that.

[Nocmen]

Xine is innocent. For sure.

The UK result was a mod error.

Vote: Nocumen

, triggered from #836. I'll post more in a moment.

Looking forward to seeing more.

Also,

Vote: Antihero

because I'm in an angry mood and his lurking makes me angry too.

[Nocmen]

Unvote, Vote: LMP

Still think he's scum, prolly buddies with Anti, blahblah, I'm gonna get called out for being opportunistic, but hey, LMP is too, hypocrit, etc, IDGAF, lynch him anyways.

[Nocmen]

I'm at L-1. How the hell is that no pressure on me? And I've produced all I can. Apparently being right about not lynching the claimed SK makes one scum. I have no idea why, so I don't really know how to defend from the terrible wagon on me.

Did you take in to account why I thought you scum yesterday? And this is your defense?

[Nocmen]

Empking, are you defending me? that seems really odd to me.

Are you claiming scum because no one would be good enough to defend you?

[Nocmen]

Glork, why were you not voting at the end of either lynch wagon so far? Is it coincidence that you unvoted LMP at L-1, and have been very quiet ever since?

I've been busy. I got prodded in my only other game as well.

Will read/post tonight, but I do want to take some time to extract information out of LMP.

LMP, in the meantime, feel free to look over every name on the playerlist and bear your heart and soul about how you feel about each player. If you are in fact protown, it will only serve us well. If you hesitate or refuse, then you're probably scum who doesn't want to give us :goodinfo:.

That. And don't use another one of your BS defenses, saying its stupid or that you're too good to do so.

Lots of people I want to hear more from.

[Nocmen]

All of the people who are actively lurking, the ones the most being Anti and Lowell, because I see them as the most suspicious of the active lurkers.

[Nocmen]

Vote: Anti

Why have you chosen this, rather than voting for one of the people who were trying to discredit the LMP wagon? (ie, Haylen and RedCoyote)

Glork said Anti was scum (I'd easily be willing to go with RC though.)

so you're listening to glork blindly?

[Nocmen]

RC: How am I suspicious because of my vote on LMP? I've stated since the beginning of the game that I suspected him. Yet I'm suspicious because I scum hunted and questioned others, but joined a wagon on someone who I had found suspicious since I joined?

[Nocmen]

Vote: Lowell

for actively lurking, and his votes have been on the last two wagons, and the claimed cop, and now on what seems the most popular wagon again. He's following and not contributing.
Or Anti too. Lowell/Anti, how about you just tell us your other scum buddy and make it easier for us?

[Nocmen]

AGar: Because Lowell's votes are suspicious and following the wagons more than Haylen, who hasnt really voted much at all.

RC: I understand that a bit better now. I felt at first that LMP was trying everything to argue why I thought he was scum, but comparing to his attack on anti, i see the similarities.

[Nocmen]

RC: What do you think about people following (as I mentioned with Lowell), or actively lurking (Lowell, Haylen, Anti, etc)?

[Nocmen]

I agree with nacho's statement about the confirmed innocents, but why not claim the guilty results that you get? I don't see why you should hold out on us if you know they are scum. Also, why are you not voting eldarad?
Sub, why are you going after eldarad (besides that nacho said so)? You just switched in, I'd like to see the reasoning and your reads on people.

[Nocmen]

Vote: Substrike

, at least until he gives his posts and suspicions. It's ironic that he's just like Anti

[Nocmen]

So I'm not allowed to drop a case because I think someone else is scum? I see that as you just saying anything you dislike against me, due to the fact that you could use me still focusing on LMP as tunneling on him.

Also, the reason why I ignored the whole eldarad thing was due to the fact that I didn't see him as scum, and I think that yesterday's case was pretty straightforward for it. I did not see reason to blindly follow as you requested.

[Nocmen]

I'm still here, holidays are sucking way too much time oiut of me to post too much. I really need to look into AGar scum as a possibility, I can see what people are pointing at but I need to see for myself to confirm and suspicions to myself.

Unvote

For now, Substrike has posted at least some of his suspicions, though my pressure vote to ensure that really didn't do too much for pressure.

Vote: Haylen

I'm not sure how you get away with it, it's really weird, plus I'm not too certain with the ate post. Seems a bit too off topic, I feel that regardless of AGar, I'm happy with that vote for now.

[Nocmen]

Haylen, your arguments seem flawed, and besides that, I really haven't seen you contribute much. You seem so set on lynching AGar, yet you were willing to follow nacho, after your doubt on them so much?

[Nocmen]

Vote: Eldarad

, No explaination needed.

[Nocmen]

I screwed up from the start. Not that I could really do anything against a mod confirmed cop until it was too late.

[Nocmen]

He wasn't exactly mod confirmed. No one counterclaimed him.

The way day 2 happened it pretty much was, with him claiming to have an SK and hten the mod saying there was a mistake

[Nocmen]

Mistake after the lynch, so we at that point not only had to have a counterclaim, but reason to the moderation error.