Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[q21]

Lover Claim: Umbrage

... and on that note.

Oh. My. God. You. SUCK!

Bitchslap Vote implosion

That said, I disagree with my lovers attack on Emptypger and happen to agree that GreyICE's tentative, wishy-washy-ness around the massclaim issue on page one was scummy, therefore.

Vote GreyICE

<--- That one's real.

[q21]

Wait... so vezo is mindlessly sheeping reck who is mindless sheeping espy...

lulz.

[q21]

@Espy: GreyICE is scum. He is just trying to make a case on someone who knows is easy to be lynched. He didn't read any posts in this thread but he is accusing you of that. Hypocritical scum.

So you think GreyICE is scum... but you're blindly sheeping reck to vote emp who is attacking GreyIce...

Right, you're scum too.

[q21]

Why the jump to his defense, Grey?

[q21]

I quite like reck's Haylen vote... so

Unvote, Vote Haylen

What's with the q21 sniping?

What is this supposed to mean?

[q21]

Right, so for some reason, and I honestly don't know what, I started this game out really disinterested. My first posts suck hairy elephant balls and I'll make no statements otherwise. I intentionally didn't visit the thread for a day or so, hoping that the short break would allow me to refocus and remotivate. It worked, this evening I sat done all amped to play this game and decided to start with a reread. Well, about halfway through that reread I got to reck being... well... reck - reck in CAPS LAWK moade actually - and pretty quickly I was disinterested again. Doesn't really matter that none of it was directed anywhere near me, I don't particularly like reading that kind of aggression.

However, I tend to treat mafia games as a commitment and I'd been away long enough already without any reason beyond I didn't feel like playing - so I pursevered. There are lots of things that could be said, but like I just said I'm disinterested again so all the nitpicking and logic that comes when I'm playing well... just isn't there. I'll cut straight to two things then.

GreyICE 343 - Well done, you've managed to prove that I'm disinterested. Doesn't indicate scum or town for me, but that's a meta argument and you (or anyone else) would have to be a genuine moron to trust self meta, so meh. As for myself and Umbrage going in opposite direction? Sadly, I guess for both of us, we got paired with someone who reads the game almost completely differently 90+% of the time. We are both capable of reading correctly (well, I know I am and I think Umbrage is) but very rarely will our reads overlap - at least in the early game. Our choice then becomes that either one or both of us has to shift our methods of reading the game and play outside of what we know in order to present a united front or we each individually forge on with what we believe to be right.
Also, scum are vastly more likely to agree with each other in thread because that means that can go about building bandwagons with - in what is a very rare case in mafia games - sheep votes that are perfectly reasonable.


The other point regards what has dominated the thread for rather a long time. Kise v Reck and the apparent conversation that never happened. Reck proved it, right? At first I thought that too, but then something began niggling at me. So I went back to that post where he showed us the screenshot and I looked again and I saw what is was that was niggling me. There is a big shiny delete button.

Just to confirm my suspicion I went and googled the client reck uses (Adium), specifically the Chat Transcript Viewer - do it yourself in your own time if you don't believe me - and yes it is quite possible that the conversation Kisa claimed happened and reck says didn't... did in fact take place and reck, realising he was caught deleted it and then went on the rampage against Kise. Given how sure Kise was, how foolish he would have been to invent such a conversation as scum, and how he cut down his retreat by himself I believe kise here.

So, it seems Umbrage and I finally agree on something.

Unvote, Vote Reck

[q21]

Thingy - I didn't look at the screenshot in great detail first time around. Reck had already said when the four (only four according to him) chats had been what they'd been about, when I saw the screenshot I saw that there were indeed four chats and a quick skim showed that at least one of them was about what reck claimed it was. I didn't look harder than that then and there as there were still 4 and a half pages to finish reading. Something in my subconscious prompted me to go back and look again, maybe I'd seen but not fully registered the delete button in the picture, maybe its the fact that every electronic messaging system I've ever use allows you todelete things. I don't know. I went back and checked and reck's socalled proof that Kise is lying is bullshit.

Forget for a moment the method of delivery and tell me what you think of the fact presented.

Whoever said one of Reck/Kise HAS to be lying is full of it. This is the same black and white thinking from UM. Since I know that me and Reck are town and I don't necessarily believe that Kise is lying as in in perhaps had this conversation not on aim and not with me and Reck then the whole "ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE LYING!!!!" is potentially setting up 2 mislynches.

Q21 makes my head hurt. Most programs have a delete button. Just 'cause its there doesn't mean he deleted anything.

also unvote;vote:Q21

and no its not an OMGUS since I was already voting this slot.

You're right of course that it isn't as simple as Kise is lying or reck is lying, there is also the Kise is entirely deluded/confused option. From the tone of his posts, especially when Kise first put the case forward I don't think that last option is likely. And while its true that there's no proof that reck deleted anything the fact that very easily could have strips the validity from everyone of his KISE MADE A BALD FACE LIE CASE AGAINST ME AND I CAN PROVE/HAVE PROOVED IT! posts. Without that validity Reck comes out of the exchange looking scummy.

Unfortunately, I'm not necessarily getting a town vibe from this. The distracting back on to the Reckoner/Kise shit is unbelievable. And playing the reasonable half of the pair is weird. Honestly, q21, what you called good scumplay at this stage, forming blocks? It's bad scumplay because it's visible a mile away. Like "Oh look, those 4 people always agree with each other, and they tend to float from wagon to wagon, and hey look! Scum!"

I've said it before: I don't drink wine, I break goblets and use them as shivs. You two have honestly been playing a lot like scum. Umbrage? He still is.

The "Reckoner/Kise shit" is not distracting its making a valid observation that debunks reck's supposed proof and thereby throws and entirely new light onto what has been one of the major interactions of the game so far. That new light has reck as much scummier and Kise as much townier. This is called scumhunting, learn it well.

Secondly, what I meant with the reasonable sheep votes was partners sheeping each other, not one scumpair sheeping the other scumpair. I'm talking about the ability a pair working in concert has to turn an non wagon into a 2 vote wagon or a 3 vote wagon into a 5 vote wagon. I never mentioned anything about 4 vote blocks.

Since you bring up the point about how easy it would be to spot 4 players working together... any thoughts on vezok voting me in 185, his lover snake joining in 189 and you in 191 with the only reason being sheeping your lover. There were other people voting me around that time, yes, I pick these two pairs (vezok/snake & GreyICE/AH) based on some interesting early activity. Both snake and vezok RVS you, which is possibly distancing. Snake is the first to call you out for your massclaim wishywashyness, your immediate response is to reply with a more solid stance. Possible coaching. At this point just a half formed theory, but a GreyICE/AH; Snake/vezok scumteam seems a possibility to me.

[q21]

1. How about how sure I was that the conversation never happened?
2. How about the fact that Kise has now changed his opinion from "it was with Reck" to "it was with

someone

"?
3. How about the fact that I even said I was willing to give Kise the benefit of the doubt? In retrospect now, that whole exchange screams town on town.

1. As initiator of the conflict I'm more willing to take Kise sureness over yours.
2. Because being ranted at and having falseproof waved in your face will do that to you. Same way innocent people will confess under torture.
3. You realised you weren't getting the easy mislynch you wanted.

[q21]

1. As initiator of the conflict I'm more willing to take Kise sureness over yours.
2. Because being ranted at and having falseproof waved in your face will do that to you. Same way innocent people will confess under torture.
3. You realised you weren't getting the easy mislynch you wanted.

This is completely ridiculous. You are REFUSING to admit that Kise COULD HAVE JUST BEEN FUCKING MISTAKEN. No... instead, it makes MUCH MORE SENSE to you that I would go through the trouble of saying that we didn't have that conversation, delete it from my logs, contact the mod in order to get the okay to post a screenshot, post the entirety of my logs in text form, and do everything that I've done so far just to get Kise mislynched.

I don't refuse to believe that Kise could be mistaken, but yes I do find second the option you outline here more likely. Its exactly what I'd have done as scum in your position, minus some of the CAPS LAWK ranting.

[q21]

Lynch me already. Put me out of my misery.

Thanks for this. *slap*

@ q21

I quite like reck's Haylen vote...

What did you mean by this? (Sorry the question is vague. I just can't think of a better way to ask it.)

I thought that reck's case and vote on Haylen had a shred of validity and given how early it was in the game I felt it was enough to vote on... and I was busy being too disinterested to think for myself at that moment.

Would someone like to go and have a look at what I have been saying all day? kcd's the worst lurker in this game seeing as he is the most active lurker. He is a better lynch than any of the other wagons because they, if they are indeed scum, can actually give us a hand catching members of their rival scumteam.

So your complaining that people aren't reading what you've said, despite the fact that they're voting where you apparently want them to. It feels to me like you're trying to make sure you get credit for this wagon rather than actually catch scum.
Your later unwillingness to make a second case for fear of derailing this wagon is scummy because if you have something valid to say, some information to share you should share it. Make the case and let the town decide which wagon is better.

*Sees BW...*

Well excuse me! I'm sorry i'm wrong. I see CAPSLOCKREAG and I assume someone catching the FATE virus and I skip it.

It's STUPID argument in the first flippin place you going APESHIT over STUPID is god damn scummy.

Wait so you skipped the argument, but your reason for voting is based in that selfsame argument. You know, the one you skipped. That is scummy, so is your reaction to pressure as DBE has stated. Since its been like 200 posts since the last vote count I think I'd like to see another one before I jump on this wagon.

[q21]

^^Scum.

How so?

[q21]

I thought that reck's case and vote on Haylen had a shred of validity and given how early it was in the game I felt it was enough to vote on... and I was busy being too disinterested to think for myself at that moment.

Do you consider that to be mindlessly sheeping, blindly sheeping, some other kind of sheeping, or NOT sheeping?

Definitely sheeping. Considered sheeping with a side of lazy sheeping. But sheeping none the less, to say otherwise would be bullshit.

Ouch, all we had was a giant heatwave and couldn't sleep.

Unvote

Wait, so in many of your most recent posts you comments have been along the lines of the kcd wagon being good, so good in fact that you didn't want to make any other cases because you didn't want to distract from the awesome kcd wagon. A wagon you were sure is on scum. And now you jump off that wagon with no reason offered for changing your mind. Not even a mention of that other case you were thinking about making.

This seems scummy to me.

Unvote, Vote Espy

[q21]

q21: You have nothing else to comment about your wagon but you just vote another bandwagoner.

What the crap?

May I please point you to these posts, vezok.
376 - In addition to pointing out the delete button this post also contains my response to GreyICE's case against me.
385 - The last paragraph of this post is comment on the nature of some of the votes on my wagon at the time and some interaction elsewhere between those players. In it I suggests the likelyhood of a scumteam with GreyICE, AH, Snake and you. Seems you missed that.

Seriously how is this guy not dead yet?

unvote
vote q21

Kise has to wait till tomorrow.

I'd also like to point out that this vote is scummy, not so much for who its on (me) but how its made. See, you've just unvoted me in order to vote me - one of two things is happening here, Either you've forgotten who exactly you were voting for and are just jumping at what appears to the most promising bandwagon at thte moment OR you're intentionally trying to make it look like you're jumping from Kise to me so that you can made it look like my wagon is gaining more momentum than it really is.

Espy's unvote would be my fault. I told him I was seeing a helluva lot of STUPID from kcda, but not necessarily scum. And that BS was V/LA for the past couple days, not lurking, and that we were jumping on this thing with very little data. Also that I found it hard to believe that a 4-person scum daytalk quicktopic would let kcda behave so darn badly, or be unable to fill him in on the right details. The fact that Emp also didn't like the wagon reinforced my caution.

Espy is wanting to play some stuff close to the chest, here, and I've been disagreeing with him about that too. :p

Okay, I can follow this I guess and I like your later vote for GreyICE, but I think I'm going to leave my vote right where it is until I finally see that case from Espy. You know the one he's promised on a number of occasions now.

[q21]

What I thought of q21 in QT:

Scum. Followed Reck's vote towards Haylen. Random pointing of scum accusation towards vezopiraka without evidence. Scum scum scum.

True, I sheeped reck, once. As for the comment about vezok: bullshit.

Now for q21:
-Accuses vezo and reck of sheeping.... after he mindlessly sheeped onto GreyIce....
-Hey, look at that. Then he goes and sheeps reck, right onto Haylen. Nice.
-And then we get the whole mess about the delete button.... Looks a bit like an attempt to be helpful while stirring up an already contentious, probably town v town debate.
-Again, admits to mindlessly sheeping (he does this a lot), then attacks Esp for trying to draw attention to another scum and appears to take a sarcastic comment by Esp seriously, and last but not least, he sheeps onto the kcda argument (sans vote, of course). That was a fun post.
-Then we get a semi-decent post where he actually backs up what he says with a vote. You should try this more often.
-His last post is actually ok. He makes a good argument against Vezo (who I need to take a look at at some point).

So there you have it. Umbrage is by far scummier than q21. q21's main offense is sheeping in a manner that would put real sheep to shame.

First, the sheep accusation on reck and vezok was mostly joke on account of the fact that I could tell that they (well, reck at least) was joking in his sheep vote. I found it funny that one player was sheeping another player who was sheeping another player.
Then I'd like to point out the trend in my posting: It goes from scummy (yes, I won't contest that my early posts can be construed as scummy) to townie as I think my most recent posts have been. A scummy progression is to go from townie posting when the game is smaller and more managable to drift toward scummier posting later when the game becomes more detailed. My post progression is more in line with what I have already said, that I was disinterested and unmotivated toward the game early on and have managed to remotivate myself as the game has gone on.

[q21]

Alright, so I'm dead. First time I've been lynched in years, quite literally. But anyway, in a short while you'll have no reason to doubt my alignment so here are my scum reads for you to make use of as you see fit. I'll point out that for all that my posting hasn't been great this game I can still read people just fine - for a simple example I refer you to the game mentioned in my sig: Scummies invitational 2010.

GreyICE/Antihero & vezok/snake - this lot makes a promising scumteam. The concerted push of 3 of them onto my wagon inside 6 or 7 posts with less than 2 lines of reasoning between them. Vezok has been scummy all over the show, but given that its vezok the only occasion that is definitely vezok-scum rather than vezok-vezok is his unvote, vote q21... when he was already voting me. Grey has made a pile of posts, but a huge potion of them have been IIOA or fluff - he's trying to look more helpful than he is. There are early signs of both distancing and coaching between Grey and Snake/vezok on page 1 - Grey makes his wishy washy statement about claimiing (scummy in and of itself) snake calls him out and Grey politely changes his tune without question.

These 4 are scum and should be lynched inside the next few days.

Maryita/Tragedy - late comers to my wagon arrive after the wagon has gained steam and begin pushing it and making cases then. The don't actually say anything new they just try to push an already popular wagon, mislynch wagon no less, to conclusion. My thoughts on scumbuddies here goes either to reck who happily sheeped Maryita's weak, unoriginal case to vote me or kdc who was the competing wagon with me from which maryita jumped taking pressure of a possible scumbuddy and onto me.

Espeonage/PO - in this case PO is almost only by association, his apparent forgetting of the nature of the game is a little suspect. Esp has been scummy though. He seemed overly concerned with making sure he got some credit for the kdc wagon. He refused to share another case on the chance that it would hurt the "sure its on scum" kdc wagon... then unvoted kdc without reason. He still has not reappeared to give us that other case for all that he was trumpeting around that he had one. A maryita/tragedy & Esp/PO team is possible not for interaction but because I find both scummy and already have the other pair.

So, top scumreads in this game:
GreyICE/Antihero
vezok/snake
Maryita/Tragedy
Espy/PO

A reckon at least 50% probably 75% accurate.

Lesser scumreads
Reck/Nero - come out of the reck v Kise thing looking scummier. Don't like reck's respond only to things targeted at him attitude.
kdc/BS - for kdc commenting on a conversation he didn't even bother to read.


Right, mod, I'm ready to be strung up now.