Ok, per Fishy's request, I'm going to try to do a summery of some of the main points in the case against Ender and Llama in one post. Note that this is going to be a loooonng post, they've both acted scummy pretty much constantly, and because I'm going to try to get as specific as I can since Jahoodo mentioned that he thought I was talking too much in generalities.
Ender:
-Ender started out scummy early. First, when FF implied he was a town power role (remember, he was the doctor), Ender jumped on his wagon really early, and then jumped right back off as soon as he realized this would make him look bad.
-When people asked him about this, and started to get suspicous of him for his odd vote/unvote on Fires, his response was the scummy:
ender241 wrote:VOTE: Finalfires
Happy now?
His whole behavior on the early Fires wagon really looks like scum who wanted to lynch a town power role, but also was very worried about how he looked, and was very willing to give in to pressure in general.
His next few posts were equally odd. First, Ender defends Darla, attacking Whiskey for voting for her. Then a few posts later, he says:
ender241 wrote:I think if everyone thinks Darla is scum that it would be a wise choice to kill her, if i have to be killed for a scum to be taken out then i am willing for that to happen.
which is just a bizzare post. He keeps trying to do this self sacrificing theme "Oh, it's ok, if I have to die in order to lynch Darla, that's ok", and it dosn't make sense; he's not even voting Darla at this point, he had just been defending her, and in his next post he says he "dosn't have a reason to vote Darla.". All I can think about this melodrama is that it's an act by a scum to try to look more town, it doesn't make sense otherwise.
He then goes quiet for a few days, and when he comes back, he says:
ender241 wrote:Sorry for not posting for a while guys.
At the moment i think it's bobsnox.
and then, half an hour later:
ender241 wrote:Unless i have to vote him i won't though, i'd prefer VOTE: Finalfires.
And then he never posts again, and is replaced.
All of Ender's posts really look like newb scum to me. He wants to lynch a town power role, but doesn't want to get in trouble for doing it; he's really inconsistent and illogical in his posts, and he mostly seems to want to try and look town.
(It's worth mentioning that at this point of the game, Fishy, you briefly voted for Ender yourself.)
Anyway, Llama replaces in here. Llama is obviously more skilled then Ender, and he certanly plays better, but I think he's also playing like scum here.
Llama:
When he replaced in, he was already in trouble, due to Ender's scummy behavior. He tries quite hard, and quite effectivly, to shake off the wagon on him, but he uses what I consider to be scummy means to do so.
I explained this before, but right after he got to 6 votes against him, he suddenly goes into flailing overdrive. He goes through, and in a series of fairly contradictory posts, attacks pretty much everyone who was voting for him. Rather then repeat myself, let me just repeat my earlier analysis of this series of posts here:
Yosarian2 wrote:
Basically, Llamable got to 6 votes on post 308, at 6 PM January 29th; the response to this was an absolute flood of posts from him, and in the next 32 hours or so, he made 22 posts, some of them quite long. Now, again, there's nothing wrong with posting a lot; that's not a sign of alignment, either way. A lot of the content of those posts, though, was really iffy, and most of it just feels like wild flailing, mostly directed at the people attacking him. Post 7 included a vague attack at "scum piling on his wagon"; post 8 he attacks Bub; post 9 he attacks FF for voting him; post 10 he attacks DLG for voting him. Post 11 he calls whisky a buddy of Bub. Post 13 he changes his mind and calls FF town again; post 15 he calls me and Fishy buddies of Bub and defends whisky, while post 16 he calls whiskey scum again. Note this is all within a 4 hour period, and right after he gets to lynch -1.
This doesn't look like a town person trying to find scum, or a town person trying to put together a defense. It looks like a scum with his back to the wall, trying desperately to find some kind of a handhold with which to launch a counterattack against the townies who have him close to a lynch.
He also keeps going back and fourth with this odd "I don't know if whiskey is contradiction lying, but if you think he is, then you MUST NOT VOTE ANYONE BUT HIM" thing with DLG. It looks like he was trying to keep DLG voting for whiskey (instead of him) but at the same time wanted to set himself up as a defender of whiskey. In reality, I don't agree with that at all; if you catch someone lying about they're role, they're pretty much an auto-lynch, but while contradicting yourself can be scummy, it's not anywhere near in the same category. And again, in that few days, he swings back and forth of whisky a bunch of times; sometimes attacking him, sometimes defending him, sometimes doing both at once. For example:
I think he was trying to both get whiskey lynched and set it up so he could claim to be a defender of whiskey the next day. Llama denied this later, and Fate is using Llama's so called "defense" of whiskey as the major point in his defense, so let's look at what Llama actually said about Whiskey in some detail here.
Llamarble wrote: Whiskey looks scummy, but we'll see how things appear once I'm fully caught up. Also I have no idea who I'm voting.
Unvote
Calls Whiskey scummy.
Llamarble wrote:Vote: Bub Bidderskins
He is tunneling/voteparked on DBE but doesn't like the other members of the wagon on her.
He has lined up Bobsnox or Whiskey lynches for D2 in the event of a Darlatownflip.
I'm not really impressed by his case on DBE.
Yosarian is also kind of scummy looking.
Then again Whisky is also pretty bad.
Calls Whiskey a mislynch, but then IN THE SAME POST says he looks "bad".
Llama wrote:@DLG: WHY WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO ACCEPT THE LYNCH OF ANY OTHER PLAYER THAN ONE YOU CAUGHT LYING?
Demands DLG keeps voting Whiskey.
Llama wrote:
Huh, I still don't see where Morewhisky is contradiction-lying (please make this clear somebody who thinks he is).
But he has done absolutely pitiful scumhunting, and is bandwagoning like a champ. So he's a likely Bidderbuddy.
That would make sense with Bidderscum's play; Lynch town today, FOS a buddy and a townie for tomorrow.
Disagrees with Bub's case on Whiskey, but then calls whiskey scum for other reasons. Ends up calling Whiskey scum with Bub.
Llamarble wrote:My reads are getting settled in at this point, so I'll summarize with a list:
Town:
Llama
Jahudo
Bobsnox
Darla
FF
Null:
Broken
DLG
CMAR
Flinter
Somewhat scummy:
Yos
Fishy
Nikanor
Scummy:
Whisky
Scum:
Bidderskins
I'm going to go back and look for the case against Ender now and try to deal with it.
I want responses (Preferably votes in agreement) to my case against Bidderskins.
Calls Whiskey scum again.
Llama wrote:
IF YOU BELIEVE A PLAYER IS CAUGHT LYING, ANY OTHER LYNCH IS UNACCEPTABLE.
That said I don't think Whisky's supposed contradiction was anything other than sarcasm even if he's scum.
Demands DLG keeps voting for whiskey, but at the same time says he dosn't agree with the case. Then goes on to add "even if he's scum", again implying that Llama thinks Whiskey is likely scum.
Llama wrote:
His behavior fits with an apparent "lynch Darla then Snox/Whisky" plan shared by a Yosarian/Bub scumteam.
Then, with his absurd "Bub/Yos are trying to mislynch Darla and then mislynch Whiskey" conspiricy theory, implies that Whiskey is town again.
Then, after Whiskey defended LLama:
Whiskey wrote:Llmarble doent deserve this wagon.
Llama flips and starts defending Whiskey.
Llamarble wrote:I don't think Whiskey is scum either, though I'm in the middle of a post on that.
Llamarble wrote:Whiskey is town, I think.
His ISO makes sense. I looked at his meta and his play as townie in a newbie game isn't dissimilar from his play here.
I think he believes what he's saying and his logic looks like town logic even if I don't agree with him in places.
Why are we lynching him again?
So, at this point, either Llama is now defending Whiskey since Whiskey is pretty much the only guy still on his side, or else Llama honestly did a re-read and changed his mind on Whiskey being scummy.
But then, only a few hours later, he flips again, and starts setting himself up so he can vote Whiskey if necessary to protect himself.
Llamarble wrote:I would vote Whisky to prevent a no-lynch.
Llamarble wrote:Okay at this point it looks like Bubscum will have to wait.
VOTE: Morewhisky
Hopefully I'm wrong and he's scum.
He unvote whiskey again after this, but then after Whiskey claims a power role, he has this bizzare post:
Llamarble wrote:
Scum almost always claim PRs D1 because it sometimes stops them from getting lynched when they would otherwise.
This makes a claimed PR a lot more likely to be scum.
Also FF softclaimed, meaning the odds of randomly hitting a town PR are reduced further.
I may not have access enough to vote in time tomorrow and lynching 40%scum60%PR (normally it'd be more like 60%scum but I dropped the percentage due to my read) is better than lynching 100% VT.
VOTE: MoreWhisky
Suddenly he's more suspicious of Whiskey, and more willing to lynch him, because Whiskey claimed to be a power role? That doesn't make any sense at all to me. Pro-town people are usually much less willing to lynch a power role. (Note this was before Whiskey's absurd fakeclaim).
Then, in Llama's first post of day 2, tried to use his "defense of whiskey" as a reason why he was town, and I really don't buy that. He went back and fourth on whiskey any number of times in the short period he was playing; he was inconsitant throughout.
This post of mine is already absurdly long, so I'm going to wrap it up here, even though there's more I could say. Let me just say that I also think LLama's day 2 posting seems OMGUS-ish, and oppertunistic. Based on his day 1 convictions, he should be trying to lynch Bub; based on his day 2 case, he should be trying to lynch DLG, but instead, he's trying to lynch me. Why? Because that way he can follow Fate, and that way Fate takes the blame when the wagon goes wrong, and because this way it looks like he can actually get a mislynch. Looking at Llama's posts, he spent so much time saying how sure he was that Bub and DLG are scum, but then just drops that as soon as he has the chance to mislynch someone else; I don't buy that at all as coming from town-Llama.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie