130.Mirror Mafia - Game Over

[Magister Ludi]

/Let The Games Begin

[Magister Ludi]

Unlock The Secrets of Our Minds

Random voting, lurking nonsense is not for me.
1. Your boss comes out with an important project and gives it to you. It is extremely hard, but if you complete it by yourself, you get all the praise and a raise. Do you work alone, or gather a small group to work with you?

2. You begin playing a new strategy game you have never played before. You are going to play this game with your friend in 3 days for an unknown prize. Do you study yourself, or use a computer to assist you in mastering it?

3. You are tired and walking home one day when someone hops off their bike and leaves it unlocked to quickly buy some groceries. Do you steal the bike and ride home?

4. 2+2= ?

[Magister Ludi]

I'll answer to the intent of my questions when everyone has had to a chance to either respond to them or reject them.

Vote: Nocmen

Your previous post is off. You imply that you believe people will begin examining you if you don't state that you are here and ready to read (when In reality 60% of this game hasn't posted anything), and that reads as over concerned about your status and how people view you.

Add that to the fact you could of simply read through this thread, as it is only two pages, and posted instead of saying you are 'reading through', and I find this a very satisfactory vote.

[Magister Ludi]

Ahhhh, bud. What are 'mafia results'?

Kcda, what do you find so troubling in flinter's 'reach'? Am I reading you right in that you believe having an incorrect or potentially false conjecture makes someone mafia instead of just misguided?

[Magister Ludi]

Talking too much makes it hard to get to the nub of your points.

Would you be willing to lynch Nocmen, Bud Bidderskins or Kcdaspot today?

[Magister Ludi]

Bud Bid is scum. That post reeks of over-cogeniality and neturality (mentioning people he thinks are scum, town and a various assortment of other things), and he ends with a weird vote.

How did you pick pine over anyone else? Do most people have content right now that is blowing down the doors?

A vote with no real weight behind it. Time for rope.

Unvote

Vote; Bud

Nocmen still needs votes as well

[Magister Ludi]

Why don't you need to be cautious with your votes, for the unenlightened?

[Magister Ludi]

Thors' a fellow of infinite jest, of the most excellent fancy, you must realize.

[Magister Ludi]

I can't believe to myself that we've got active lurking so far, but the activity level of the three people I dislike the most

1. Bud
2. Nocmen
3. kcda

Is horrendous. zdenek can potentially join that group as well. Bud still tops the charts, I find his defense of his vote on pine half baked at best, and his statement about twisted spoon is just waffle.

I find my eyes glazing over when I read calcifer, which I dont like, and Furc wall reads like a wall of whipped cream; shiny (lots of reads!!!), but not much substance.

Furc, would you be willing to switch you vote onto Bud wagon to get it moving?

[Magister Ludi]

*Though I like zdeneks vote (on Buddy) his reason to switch from his terrible opening vote isn't particularly strong, nor is his insight or reads, as I find myself not agreeing with most of them, (Ion, Acro, Cecily).

[Magister Ludi]

Acronach, if you weren't voting Ctorj (who in all likelyhood is going to be replaced) who would you be voting?

[Magister Ludi]

Null, Null, Null, Voteable

[Magister Ludi]

That was quite an amusing recap actually.

[Magister Ludi]

Mafia is such an interesting game to me because it is so psychological. At the beginning of each game, each player receives that crystal bit of unchangeable knowledge that changes their entire way of thought, of responding to challenges, new information and circumstances. It is whether they are town or not.

So I initially asked these questions in an attempt to see if I could mine away the outer ‘defenses’ so to speak and hit each person’s innermost nub of thought. The nub is the portion of their brain that has meshed with their alignment and subconsciously or not determines their responses.

My thought process behind the questions was this.

1. The mafia always know who their partners at the start of a game are, they know exactly who their ‘team’ is. Thus, mafia members should of received more positive thoughts about working in a group as opposed to individually (which town do) and answered accordingly.

2. Mafia also have more initial knowledge on the set-up than town. They know everybody’s alignment, and have a rough thought of what roles may exist in the game to correspond with their own. Thus, knowledge also registers optimistic emotions for mafia. They would use a computer.

3. I think the negative connotations of stealing sullied this question, but the intent was that town are very fearful of others, they are essentially alone physiologically. The would not attempt to do anything particularly rash, or make too many quick second decisions because it could be the wrong one. So town response is to walk on by.

4. I was curious with this question. How many people would be bold and answer not four? I’m not sure what the results of this will be. (Interesting to see)

Lets see how people answered according to my criteria

SP = Scum Pre-Knowledge

Player	SP	SP	SP
01. Cecily	N	Y	Y
02. farside22 (Kcdaspot)	N(Y)	Y(Y)	N
03. MrTrow	N	N	M
04. Acronach (CJMiller)	?	?	?
05. Zdenek	Y	M	N
06. evilpacman18	?	?	?
07. flinter	Y	N	N
08. Bub Bidderskins	N	N	N
09. Nocmen	N	N	N
10. Ion67	?	?	?
11. Thor665	N	Y	N
12. TheJakalope	N	M	N
13. Twistedspoon	N	Y	N
14. Gollum (Kise+Nero Cain hydra)	Y	N	N
15. Calcifer (Mastin+Nacho hydra)	N	N	N
16. Zombeh-Pug	N	Y	N
17. Caboose (Quilford)	(Y)	(N)	(N)
18. Furcolow	?	?	?
20. Ctorj49	N	N	N
21. Pine	?	?	?

So that wasn’t very conclusive. What was much more revealing was how people responded to answering the actual questions themselves.

Several people ignored them outright: Evilpac, Furc, Pine, Acro and Ion. It also appears that these people have similar play styles. Either they didn’t see them, didn’t care, or choose not to answer them. I would find all modes a slight town tell, as town initially unsure what the hell another player is doing, and adopting a defensive wait and see stance.

Thor was basically the only one to get really ‘aggressive’ in response to the questions. I’d view this mode of defensiveness in the same vein as doing nothing, a slight town tell.

Then I’d place the scum responses.

Bud tries to play along with some aggressiveness, but then backs down and doesn’t mention it again (as If he didn’t really believe in himself the first time).

Kcda also had an interesting response, in that he ‘missed them’ but choose to answer them anyways, although there was no real motivation to. It came across as not wanting to seem out-of-place by NOT answering the questions, as concerned about what people thought instead of a screw-you mindset.

(It should be noted the now farside22 is voting Bud. Potential bus alert?)

Thejakalope used the questions as an excuse to say nothing. Dislike this as well.

[Magister Ludi]

Happy Easter!

I think Cecily is town. I think all votes on this wagon are town as well. I am not sure how to reconcile these two points of view. Will attempt with more time

Bub is still number one, though I dislike last two votes on this wagon.

Nocmen and Caboose sparing with furc combined with my slight town read on furc makes me believe one of them is scum, and its possibly Noc since MrTrow's throw-away vote on caboose smells scummy to me.

I guess Thor does have an awesome beard, though I thought my explanation was slightly more mystical and indepth than his -_-.

[Magister Ludi]

Can you point out the main parts that you concluded made bub very likely town?

[Magister Ludi]

MrTrow, farside22, zombeh (Bunny), Bub, lurker/potentially more.

This makes sense to me. I can't really explain it, (and this late at night don't have time) but for whatever reason this team of scum seems right. I'll try and unpack in subsequent posts.

(prods on Gollum et al. @ mod please)

[Magister Ludi]

Insert thejakalope in that list.

This man's last post in this game is to critisize another player for posting 'many times' in other threads while neglecting this one. Iso his account. He has had enough time to not only post in other games (to the avoidance of this one), he has the time to SIGN UP for another game.

It seems like selective posting. In fact, it is.

[Magister Ludi]

Actually, it did help support my vote, which I explained in the second half of that post, so I don't understand you FOS.

There needs to be more action in this game. If no one is willing to lynch Bub, as his wagon has stalled out it appears, perhaps from Vla issues, I am willing to move. But does no one else see what I see?

[Magister Ludi]

I've been really busy last few days. Reading these walls.

[Magister Ludi]

Who are zdenek's buddies?, Are any of them bussing?

Is gollum the counterwagon?

Why is there no fierce competition like there was between Bub-Cecily?

I can't answer these questions.

Being unable to do so, I do not want to lynch either.

I will move off Bub, but not to either of these too, and I ideally not off bub at all.

[Magister Ludi]

Bub, who else do you believe is mafia with Gollum?

[Magister Ludi]

Thor, that was the best move for the zdenek considering the fact many times claims are simply disbelieved or speed hammered.

You've made some high profile moves onto large wagons this game, in fact inhabiting 3 out of the 4 largest (zdenek, gollum, and cecily) You seem willing to move your vote.

Since you seem opposed to Bub, how about the MrTrow slot?

Trow's vote on confirmed town caboose was weak.

His follow up convoluted

and his replacements (pappums) reads are appeasement, putting most of the higher posting players in town category and scum as the lesser. More interesting is his comment about calicfer, saying he would 'like to lynch her, but actually just kidding not really!!' Uncertainty on what to do.

[Magister Ludi]

Are you a day vigilante or night? I am uninterested in your shot count or other restrictions.

[Magister Ludi]

So, Do you consider MrTrow/pappums a good lynch, or not?

[Magister Ludi]

Bub do you realize Gollum

CLAIMED

Vigiliante?

We aren't lynching him today. Your reads are all invalid. You had better fabricate a soft landing spot for your vote in a hurry.

--------

Rest of town:

I do not see how Bub is not lynched.

a. He has jumped on wagon to wagon to save himself
b. Cecily wagon sprung up to fight his
c. clearly isn't reading the thread all that closely, as he missed a very important claim
d. has no real thoughts on where his vote is, as he doesn't even have any idea who a potential buddy is.
e. His reasons are nonsense. 'scumslip'? Seriously??
f. shows no motivation to ask prodding questions to get job done. Instead will wait for 'night phrase'

And more.

[Magister Ludi]

I fail to see the scum slip.

You know what vigiliantes do, right?

[Magister Ludi]

"I am going to personally Vig you during the midgame, maybe night 2 or 3"

Now get off and vote Bub unless you disagree with my multiparted read and still are going to unsuccessfully attempt to lynch a claimed vig d1.

[Magister Ludi]

Considering I have been pushing for Bub since my

THIRD

post, have been consistent, laid out reasons, and asked you to look at them, I do not see anything as a 'sudden push'. I have outlined my reasons multiple times.

I ask you to look at pappums because you seemed to be ignoring him, and also seemed more than happy to lynch the first person who tickled your fancy.

I pointed out his switch on the calcifer read, and you failed to look at that even though you said 'it was interesting'. This is not town play from you.

You have consistently avoided these two major players doing deviant and perhaps scum sided things, in order to pursue a RAFT of potential mislynches. I have not agreed with a single read of yours, and your comment about myself of GUT!!!, is simply wrong.

[Magister Ludi]

Listen to this as well Thor.

1. I asked you to look at pappums, because of several actions that were questionable, at best.

2. Your last post

dismisses

my push on the rat, essentially boiling it down to because Magister is SCUM because of GUT, pappums is

TOWN

3. Calcifer, one post prior established that if we assume Gollum is town, based on a vig claim, we can then assume pappums is scum. (Others may or may not agree with this statement.)

4. You then say Calcifer is

TOWN

, even though he just pushed on the

EXACT SAME

person I did, for similar thought processes.

5. This shows your reads and pushes aren't

CONDITIONAL

on this game, but on a weak basis, as you use the SAME criteria to judge two different people

DIFFERENTLY.

6. The purpose of this inconsistency comes from...

scum

.

Bub, Pappums of Thor are now the best lynches.

[Magister Ludi]

Thor, people aren't voting because your reason and logic is fallous.

You've pushed on Cecily all game, switched in an attempt to create two mislynches, and now just have no strong or clear idea what you are doing.

And on a side note for Calcifer, would it be possible to have the summary

before

the 42 massive wall write ups. If the 42 walls are even needed at all. Just a simple point chart so I can read those thoughts, with +1 for each time a 'scummmish' action is committed and -1 for each time a 'town' action is committed.

Everyone ever on or entertaining a thought of voting Gollum or Zdenek wagons, please get off. There is no pro-town reason to even examine either of these people for the next several days.

[Magister Ludi]

No, Thor, fallous is slang where I come from. Not referencing phallus or any other such thing.

Noc, Well, unless you believe

a. Masons are lying
b. Vig is lying

They are mislynches.

Its a mislynch.

[Magister Ludi]

I'm extremely low access right now, what with finals and tennis other such school business.

I don't have time to answer thor in depth. Dont be fooled by his awesome beard, the guy is a solid mafia as that Berlusconi chap.

Cecily wagon is bad, Bub is good.

For the night schedule, I would suggest
a. the hider visiting thor.
b.The vig shooting pappums.

I'll try and get on tomorrow to see if I need to switch my vote.

[Magister Ludi]

The vig is gollum.

[Magister Ludi]

Bub

Bid

derskins

I think evil very obviously DID crumb his target. Calcifer, its not even a spelling of his first name, its the first three letters of his LAST.

Not bandwagoning claimed vig still until he posts in thread. Does not add up.

a. Why claim vig if cannot shot at all (obvious death next day)
b. why shoot a claimed mason when town will lynch him next day

Since this is a normal game, bus driver redirection shenengians are not allowed if I am not mistaken.

[Magister Ludi]

Vote Bub BIDderskins

I hesitate to call two scum teams or a serial killer or anything until we see a flip. If it says Bub from Red Team mafia, ok, there is a high chance of two teams. But until then, we aren't making those assumptions.

This flip is crucial. If you're not voting for Bub, you need to explain why.

[Magister Ludi]

Furc, vote Bub. Ctorj, what is the purpose of your vote, and why aren't you voting Bub

I would be more than happy to go and lynch thor off, but I recieved no indication from evilpac that he infact targeted Thor and that is the reason he died. But, why would you think he followed my request, his vote was on me and he didn't really show a penchant to follow my reads. (however correct they are) His last post screams a massive breadcrumb that he targeted Bub Bid, unless you can prove to me that that is not the case.

By voting Gollum, you are basically stating that you do not care that the hider found mafia, you are going to vote another way. Voting off Bub will confirm whether or not there are two killing factions, and then I can spend the time refuting why Gollum is not on a scum team, but not before.

I ask you,

a. Do you think it is impossible for 2 mafia teams and a vig, or 2 mafia teams and a SK or a mafia team a SK and a Vigilante? Is that really impossible?
b. Who did evilpac target with his hider ability?

[Magister Ludi]

The breadcrumb is not the only reason I am voting for Bub, it is merely the final nail in the coffin of a pattern of mafia sided play.

I still believe that the Gollum-vig business is going to sort itself out obviously within a day or two. If he is mafia or serial killer, town can generally lead the shot until a day when his potential as a vig is outweighted by the possibility and anxiousness of being a serial killer.

Voting for him thus in this situation is not optimal.

Help me understand your reasoning a little more. I believe it is possible for there to be multiple, up to three in fact, killing roles in a single game. I will provide a few examples of three kills in one night, that prove it is very possible to have 3 or more possible deaths in a night.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... hree+kills
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ree+kills+
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ree+kills+
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ree+kills+
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ree+kills+

Last one has two teams SK and a vig.

Do you reconsider your convictions on point a, or not?

We have to act under the assumption that pacman is rational and wants us to know he is too. So, we assume the pacman target someone who would be of help to the village, not doing so is acting ever so slightly against his wincon. He has no reason to NOT breadcrumb his target and then hide behind someone he doesn't mention, because his subsequent death is so full of cross-talking as to be rendered invalid.

I then assume he either targeted Thor or Bub, and as his last post does scream to me as a very obvious breadcrumb on Bub. The first three letters of the guys last name. Assuming he targeted one of these two men, one is confirmed scum.

Thus, your vote should be on one of them. Why isn't it?

[Magister Ludi]

Calcifer, man up and lets get this bandwagon through. There is no reason not to lynch someone you think is scum, and by drawing things out like yesterday we can get screwed over multiple ways.

If multiple people thing someone is scum, and obviously so, then that is where their votes should go. We are not in the business of parsing through 42 cases and 300 hours to lynch scum.

[Magister Ludi]

Ion, it isn't so much a agree disagree as it is where on the spectrum a lynch wagon happens to lie. I'd prefer there to be a lynch on Bub within the next 4 unique people off the wagon posting. What information are you hoping for?

Bub one post today does nothing to dissuade that. Can the town really not see this? His three posibilities for hider are complete nonsence, and then declares the wagon forming on him 'uber-scummy', with no back up.

Calcifer, don't wall. Don't post nonsence. There are seven people not voting, and yet there are six scum on the wagon....Really? Vote Bub, do a case for him.

After we get information based on Bub's flip of whether there are one or two mafia teams, can we talk about two mafia teams.

Thor, Mastin, does it really make sense to think up connections based on two teams today when we have no idea if that is even a reality. It could be, but it could also not be.

[Magister Ludi]

What is the upshot/analysis of that Vote count analysis? It seems that you think Bub might be scum. Why not vote him?

Where is your bunnylover vote coming from, is it a base scum read on zombeh-pug?

[Magister Ludi]

Please town power roles, do not out yourselves like day 1 and then be promptly swept away by mafia killing. Pine, this means no claiming please.

Unvote

Vote: Gollum

[Magister Ludi]

What do you want straightened out, or more time for? List in a,b,c or however you want.

What did your vote count anlaysis prove?

Gollum or farside22 now are the lynches for today. Either you believe one, or the other. Neither is screwing around, and farside claims to know where pacman went last night. Is there a reason you have not to believe this?

[Magister Ludi]

I don't have any idea where you stand in this game, I'm just trying to figure this out.

1. Bunnylover was your number one choice for scum
2. Inconclusive but potentially very long and detailed cases on everyone are coming
3. You can't catch up in what will now be night, instead only day?
4. You didn't want to hammer gollum because of number 3?

[Magister Ludi]

Thor, why unvote after you counted a lynch?

[Magister Ludi]

The point wasn't understanding what you were doing, but the intention behind it. I guess it was a leading rhetorical question, but your chippy defense over it could probably take the bullet.

You specifically counted a lynch, and even stated that, but then unvoted as if to proclaim to town:

'hey, I'm thor, I was voting him, and thus wanting him lynched, but now that he is lynched in a somewhat quick manner let me unvote and call for caution because this looks like a town thing to do.'

Am I misinterpreting you?

[Magister Ludi]

Calcifer, answer my post directed towards you please, (it has four questions). I am interested in your response.

[Magister Ludi]

Vote Bud

The end of last yestrerday cements this in my mind. Bub going to get lynched in an attempt from Black mafia, farside22 red mafia watcher then switches lynch off Bud an onto Gollum.

[Magister Ludi]

unvote

Vote : Haylen

I love confirmed town hiders being declared suspicious.

[Magister Ludi]

Haylen, hider-pac died N1, not N2.

[Magister Ludi]

Lets look back at the end of Day 1 because there were some interesting things that happened during that time.

This was the cecily wagon at that time.

Cecily

(10/11):

Caboose

, Thor665, Pine, Bunnylover, Ion67,

Zdenek

, Duplicity, Nocmen,

pappums rat

, flinter

This is of particular note because no one hammered this lynch through. It was such a scramble lynch that any player could of put the final vote on and not been particularly suspected for it.

Given that we now know there are two scum teams in this game, either team should of been more that happy to of lynched Cecily, because they knew Cecily was not of their faction, and for mafia lynching someone not of their faction is their default position.

Mafia generally want: town lynch>no lynch>mafia lynch.

This is important to note because on night 2 Cecily was nightkilled by the red scum, as we know the black scum kill was on farside22. Red scum feared or suspected Cecily of being black scum enough to kill her.

But, that posses an interesting question, why Red scum did not simply hammer her away d1 and not waste their night kill.

Rereading now, This quote by Haylen around the end of day 1 is particularly interesting:

I am not voting for Cecily, for the record. Will re-read the cases on Gollum though.

The first comment rules her out of red scum, (as red scum thought her to be black), but the second comment locks her into being black. Only someone with inside knowledge would express doubts about a claimed vig on day 1 after the votes had already moved off him. The would be black scum knowledge.

So who the actual scum on the wagon is a bit more interesting. I'll post those thoughts in a moment.

[Magister Ludi]

The following table will help sort some things out.

It is organized by who

red scum

Farside pushed on and protected, who

black scum

Gollum pushed on and protected, and who Cecily, nightkilled by fearful red scum, pushed on.

(I am not including her protected because she had no inside knowledge of town scum alleigance).

If there was a push for lynch or protect, its a Y, if no evidence can be found one way or another, its a N.

Player	FarsidePush/Pro	GollumPush/Pro	CecilyPush
01. Cecily	N/Y	N/N	NA
02. farside22 (Kcdaspot)	NA	N/Y	N
03. pappums rat (MrTrow)	N/N	N/N	N
04. Duplicity (Acronach)	Y/N	Y/N	N
05. Zdenek	Y/N	Y/N	N
06. evilpacman18	N/Y	N/N	N
07. flinter	Y/N	N/N	N
08. Bub Bidderskins	Y/N	Y/N	N
09. Nocmen	Y/N	Y/N	N
10. Ion67	N/N	N/N	N
11. Thor665	N/Y	Y/N	N
12. Haylen (TheJakalope)	N/N	N/N	N
13. Twistedspoon	N/N	Y/N	N
14. Gollum (Kise+Nero Cain hydra)	Y/N	NA	Y
15. Calcifer (Mastin+Nacho hydra)	N/N	Y/N	N
16. Bunnylover (Zombeh-Pug)	Y/N	Y/N	N
17. Caboose (Quilford)	N/N	N/N	N
18. Furcolow	Y/N	Y/N	N
20. Ctorj49	Y/N	N/N	N
21. Pine	Y/N	Y/N	Y

To be honest, this reread has me muddled on my once firm read on Bub. Gollum calls him scum in 15, 17, 30, 32, 34, 38, and farside goes after him in 1, 10, 17, 20, 24. Farside reads as the one more likely to be busing, as Gollum and Bub engage in quite an honest looking back and forth (i.e. not contrived), but that might be a stretch considering farsides 20 is rough. Its enought to make me back off a little.

But It does make me look into a few others. Ion isn't particularly pursued by either, and seems to be slipping under the radar. He shows up on several bad wagons of note:

Bub Bidderskins (5/11): evilpacman18, Magister Ludi, Ion67, Zdenek, farside22
Calcifer (1/11): Ion67
Not Voting (Day 2) (5): Ion67, Bub Bidderskins, Haylen, flinter, Cecily
Cecily (10/11): Caboose, Thor665, Pine, Bunnylover, Ion67, Zdenek, Duplicity, Nocmen, pappums rat, flinter

Haylen is avoided by either player. Ion does seem to be pushing now on Haylen, which would fit nicely into them both being scum on seperate teams.

Twisted spoon could be a potential red scum, based on play and interaction with other reds: Ion, farside. Gollum also expresses interest he may be scum, as does Haylen, who I think is now black scum. I'll look more into this.

[Magister Ludi]

Cecily and Pappums are dead, and I've got a suspicion that Ion is scum as well.

May I ask you, now that I've explain my Haylen vote, what about it you find weak that you did not see in others vote. If you can explain you reasoning, fine, but this came off as an opportunistic statement.

Bub, I'd argue it wasn't a fluff wall at all, I actually came out with three solid reads and a slight town read on you. Which parts was fluff. Alternatively, who was the scum on Cecily wagon d1?

The Haylen intial slip catalyzed attention on her, but her play when reflected on at the end of day 1 and beginning of day is what should be examined. It isn't reading as town.

[Magister Ludi]

Yes first part was.

[Magister Ludi]

Actually flinter and Bub, that should read Y/N for farside, as at the end of day yesterday Gollum was pushing on farside as scum after being caught by her.

[Magister Ludi]

Bub it contributes lynching scum to discussion.

[Magister Ludi]

Bub, 1. who on cecily wagon day one was scum.
2. is Ion, Haylen or twisted spoon scum?

[Magister Ludi]

I don't think the votes on Pine are warranted at all actually. He's excited for one, and secondly he's interested about what role result he has and he's fustrated by the apparent stonewall Thor is putting up. I don't see his play today as really scum at all.

Ion, Haylen, twisted on the other hand are.

Pine, question, who else on this day one almost lynch wagon is scum.

Cecily

(10/11):

Caboose

, Thor665, Pine, Bunnylover, Ion67,

Zdenek

, Duplicity, Nocmen,

pappums rat

, flinter

[Magister Ludi]

My iso 51,52 and your play. I don't see town-sided motivation behind your actions.

[Magister Ludi]

Thor makes sense as scum but not with Bub. Look at the day one interactions of the two known scum, farside and gollum, to Bub. Each push hard on Bub, with Gollum especially so.

Ctorj does need to be lynched of this planet soon, but not today as there is still the chance of some town role or mafia killing/clearing him and we won't waste a lynch.

Ion and twistedspoon are still very certain scum in my book. twisted spoon especially for his move on to ctorj imploring him to 'do something' Sounds good, maybe you would like to do it too?

[Magister Ludi]

Thor, who are pine's buddies?

[Magister Ludi]

What color scum is Pine? Who is on the other team?

Do you still believe this compliment you paid be about my post on Haylen "flippin' Ludi of all people with a good catch in his last post,"?

[Magister Ludi]

No, I am reading. You have never expressely stated which color you think pine is, or why this make sense.

Its not even team association. At minimum, there are four potential scum left in this game, and before being promted about it this page you had only ever identified one, Pine, and not even his color of scum, which you slipped in on post #925. You haven't been making an active effort to really sort out who is town or scum.

The point about my comment was that I called out Haylen for being scum, which would in your mind put her on a different team than me. Since you think I am black scum apparently, that would make her red scum, and buddies with twistedspoon who you just identified as red, or did you forget that you posted that?

[Magister Ludi]

Haylen, that statement in itself is such a damning conviction that you havent been reading this game thoughtfully, thoroughly or at all. This entire day three play for several players has essentially revovled around the Pine claim and his intentions.

Pine, start of D3, claimed: "Time for me to fullclaim, I may not get another chance.

I am a Town Tracker.

Calcifer is confirmed Town. On N1, I tracked pappums rat to Calcifer. With PR's flip, that means Calc is Town.

Last night, I tracked Thor. He visited Calcifer, Cecily, and himself. I'm not 100% sure what that means, and would like help interpreting it.
"

[Magister Ludi]

Thats twice now you've made such a colossal statement of ignorance.

[Magister Ludi]

He claimed at the start of the day.

[Magister Ludi]

Because a known hider was tracked to Calcifer night one which would make them 100% confirmed town......?

[Magister Ludi]

Am I going delusional on Haylen? Does no one else think it is a massive scum tell to completly not be reading this thread, post stuff that isn't relevant or show complete obliviousness, and not do much of anything? Where is thw town tell.

Also, Thor isn't scum because of his night actions but because of his day play. We don't need this argument to go into night nonsence.

Base time ends tomorrow. We are not no lynching again. I am willing to switch to one of the people, Ctroj, Ion, Thor, but definently not to pine.)

(also Mod, can you just send out waves of prods. Activity feels very low)

[Magister Ludi]

(Actually, You're right. Feels very low however.)

[Magister Ludi]

Actually, I called farside scum in my iso 13 and 16. I voted Gollum at the earliest opportunity that was reasonable and not ridiculous (like after a vig claim) Defended cecily town.

Haylen is playing anti-town.

I'm not switching to pine. Have you noticed no one else is getting on that horrible wagon? Maybe you should consider your read is off, which it certainly is.

[Magister Ludi]

Thor, I'm saying that town read threads and then comment on them, and considering she isn't reading the thread, she isn't town.

[Magister Ludi]

Pine is too earnest to be scum.

Unvote

Vote: Thor

Duplicity who besides bunny would you like to lynch?

[Magister Ludi]

Really, Nacho, It would be a waste of time and energy to argue with you about one of my town reads when you are completly hell bent on calling them scum, when I voted one of my own scum reads, and when I apparently voted on of yours as well.

Lose the haughty 'I am right attitude' and look over Pine again.

Duplicity, I would be willing to vote for either twisted or Ctorj if we could get enough people together.

[Magister Ludi]

1.
2.
3.
4.

[Magister Ludi]

Yes. I'll reread end of day one and day two.

[Magister Ludi]

Pine-Gollum Interaction

(*for reference each number refers to Pine's iso)

1. 13 is the first mention of Gollum. It seems unlikely that Pine would mention voting a buddy out of nowhere, this doesn't serve to give him any town cred and could resonably lead to heavy suspicion (which eventually happened).

2. 15 Sprints away from Gollum. This would lend creedence to Gollum-Pine. I dislike this vote anyways

3. 19 "VOTE: Gollum

Calc is confirmed Town when Gollum flips scum, Bub gets big Townpoints for noticing the scumslip."

This is what really helps eliminate any doubt about them being paired together. This is blatantly calling for a lynch on Gollum over what I consider not a scum slip and then leading to clearing Calc and Bub. Scum motivation for this is low. Bus buddy hard AFTER fake claim and then clear two people as town? Not seeing it.

4. Keeps consistently calling for Gollum lynch. In a large two player scum game, calling for your buddies lynch D1 is not optimal at all, as you could easily be crosskilled n2.

5. Seems unlikely to be red scum with farside, as for one tracker and watcher on same team is more powerful than I would imagine, and Pine clashes with farside consistently 42-46. No way buddies on red.

6. Again votes Gollum. Early day 3, claims tracker clearing Calcifer (no real reason to clear town as scum. Could easily claim nothing here) and then goes against Thor.

7. Seems very consistent and earnest with his message at the end of day 3. It just feels town. Only reason I could knock him would be not really going after anyone else besides Thor, but thats minor at best.

I think thats most of the major points. His interactions with Gollum really read as two seperate teams, and him and farside are definently not on the same team. That only leaves town.

[Magister Ludi]

All considering voting Pine. Look at these two posts. Tell me if it makes sense for Pine to be buddies with either player.

Black

The time of this post is two days after you promised to provide clear thoughts. Two days, Calc. It's not hard to say who you expect my partners to be. People have made such simple cases in less time and less words. You put yourself in a position too complicated even for yourself to explain. I don't think there's enough pull to lynch you, but I seriously do not trust you to live even midway into the game, so I'll leave everyone with that for the next few days if you're alive.

^Scumslip indeed.

VOTE: Gollum

Calc is confirmed Town when Gollum flips scum, Bub gets big Townpoints for noticing the scumslip.

RED

Because it matters. I'm one of those two roles, and I'm looking to see if farside picks the wrong one to fakeclaim.

Calling it: farside+Cecily+Gollum

[Magister Ludi]

Ctorj, who else is scum in this game?

Who is your top town read?

What are you discussing in your neighbor quicktopic?

[Magister Ludi]

Thor wagon is good.

I'm interested to see where the votes of Haylen Nocmen and Ion end up.

[Magister Ludi]

Duplicity, why do you need to prove anything to Calcifer.

Anyways, hammer away on thor.

[Magister Ludi]

Thor, who are your four strongest townreads

[Magister Ludi]

Who are those lurkers that are following Calcifer.

[Magister Ludi]

Though I'd rather lynch Thor above anyone else, I'm fine with a twisted or Ctorj lynch. However, let not settle for their scramble deadline lynch when we can still lynch Thor today, and soon. I do not understand the spooked nature of people when Thor got to L-1. Lets Return to the wagon.

[Magister Ludi]

Actually, there is only one potential Thor buddy alive to try and redirect the lynch off him and onto someone else. So there is and was never going to be a massive explosion of content as Thor reaches lynch. He has been fighting it every step of the way, and look how hard it is still to get this lynch going.

[Magister Ludi]

This day has evolved into an inferior beast, with too much quivering as the time draws near. Lynch is coming. Thor should be it.

Bunnylover, why do you fail to mention the obvious excuse for not being buddies with thor:
a. not being scum?

[Magister Ludi]

The time to lynch is now.

[Magister Ludi]

That post is a spectacular disaster.

I'm not sure why you want to wait on hohum, just like i'm not sure why people wanted to wait on mastins 48 cases. Put your vote back on. No need to wait until deadline.

[Magister Ludi]

I just want to know what changed from this

'Oh, and hello to you too, hohum. Want to actually read the thread before you vote? Or are you still buttsore from being manipulated in '

to this

'Actually, I'd rather we give hohum the chance to catch up and give his reads before we go into night. With all the NKs, I'd rather not have his insight lost before he can give it.'

[Magister Ludi]

How many scum are in this game? I am thinking we may be closing in on mass claim territory if there are still 3 anti-town players left alive (unless you know something about the kills)

Also, Hell yeah! on Thor, flinter and Haylen flipping scum.

ctorj should be lynched off the face of the planet for his vote. Day lasted a few hours yesterday, I wasn't on, and scum that I pushing all of day 3 got lynched. We may have multipple scum floating around. And this is 'a good a place to start as any?' Yeah, no.

furc kill is strange. Needs explaining.

Why is pine still alive, also? Claimed tracker with two anti-town results leading to lynches, clearing town, and else seems powerful.

Still prob scum now lies in twisted, Ctorj and maybe someone else. I'll reread a little.

[Magister Ludi]

Why even post you were lying? I didn't suspect you, and I dont think anyone did.

[Magister Ludi]

I didn't even put that together hehehe.

Why do you think someone killed furc?

[Magister Ludi]

Alright, time to destroy this game.

If you ARE A VIG, CLAIM in your next post.

Doing this will not only give us several clears, we will know this setup was not 4v4v1v13 (which looks wildly unbalanced)

If a Vig claims this game is over.

Anyways, scum is almost certainly in this group (ctorj, twisted, hohum). I'm pretty sure if we just lynch 1-2-3 town wins.

Vote: ctorj

[Magister Ludi]

Re-read day one and two. Lynch away.

Unvote

Vote: hohum (replacing Ion67) {L-3}

[Magister Ludi]

No, its also based on how Ion acted. We've been right on nailing these jokers so far, trust me on Ion/hohum.

[Magister Ludi]

You would of been lynched day 3 dude. Listen, it doesn't matter who gets credit for this, we just need to lynch the scum.

Why is Bub our single biggest lead?

[Magister Ludi]

Greenlight on the hohum lynch. Check out the beginning vote counts, It makes a ton of sense. People need to get on here and off Bub, he is town.

[Magister Ludi]

I'll go more in depth if I have to, but his interactions with known scum are town, his recent posts feel town, and probably more. If it makes no difference to you switch over to hohum.

Btw I take it you are of the belief of four man scum teams?

[Magister Ludi]

In that setup we are in mylo for town (3:5), and should have a massclaim immediately.

[Magister Ludi]

No, its 3 scum v 5 town.

Why don't you think you'll be nightkilled by the way? Claimed tracker with lynch results

[Magister Ludi]

We should mass claim. If we operate on he premise of 3 outstanding scum this is mylo and we need to.

Also, pine, claim who you tracked no where last night. If you are really the tracker, you are going to be nightkilled anyway and the information will be lost.

I explained why I no longer think bub is scum about midway through day 3. Noc and Pine, check back there if you want reasons.

~~~~~~~
Bunny:

"Hmmmmmmmm. I'm thinking that ML is scum, but not on the same team as Bud. ML knows Bud is scum, but needs him to survive so when town gets into the situation of 1 v 1 v 1, he still has a chance at winning. This is assuming that the situation is 2 scum A v 1 scum B v 5 town. "

This is rediculous and wrong on so many levels. For one thing, a 1:1:1 endgame is a town win because scum shoot eachother, so that argument makes no sense. Your weak statement about 'thinking ML is scum' is misplaced here as well if you also think it is mislynch and lose.

"I find it interesting that we have yet to see a doctor or cop flip/claim yet. I think in this situation massclaiming can help us, but might also dampening us if we have a cop or doctor."

This makes sense. Why in the world has flinter flipped godfather with no roles that interact with it. Why do the scum have more powerful than town does, (two hiders and two masons).

(Massclaim is way to go. Hohum still scum. Pine claim results)

[Magister Ludi]

3:5 mislynch
3:4 two night kills
3:2 town loses

3:5 scum lynch
2:5 two night kills
2:3 lynch scum
1:3 one night kill
1:2 lylo

[Magister Ludi]

Calm down.

[Magister Ludi]

Is we had a dayvig, I would tell them to exterminate him. He needs to be gotten rid of before any potential lynch or lose situation.

Hohum wagon is good. all aboard.

[Magister Ludi]

I still think we should mass-claim today, right now. I see no point in holding off.

I also see no point in pine not revealing his no-visit report today. There is no benefit, and only down side.

Bub wagon is just plain bad, but hohum is not going to vote himself. Noc or twisted, why not vote Hohum here today? (I feel like a broken record here)

[Magister Ludi]

For generally lurking, and playing pretty much anti-town.

Declaring yourself 'town' doesn't make you town. Show me what you have done that is town. You should not live to lynch or lose.

[Magister Ludi]

We are massclaiming now.

I would prefer this order,
Ctorj
Hohum
Twistedspoon
Nocmen
Ludi

[Magister Ludi]

Twisted, you realize it's lylo today anyways, and will be tomorrow as well. What in gods name will waiting till tomorrow accomplish?

Actually, ctorj can go first and then do popcorn claiming.

[Magister Ludi]

The problem is no one is going to believe any sort of claim in 3 man lylo, and I'm not sure I even will believe one now. However, it must be done.

twisted, your thought on the other scum. Could be hohum?

[Magister Ludi]

Ctorj Is probably going to be the lynch today, regardless.

[Magister Ludi]

Yeah, the color will be obvious. With three outstanding buddies (of each player) interactions should be easier to find than normal. It will definently help to reread again.

Just need perenial lurker ctorj in here.

[Magister Ludi]

Sounds good. Can you list your investigations per night?

I claim Vanilla Town.

[Magister Ludi]

Alright, I'm ready to hammer. (The only problem is, if the teams are mirrored, and twistedspoon obviously not going to flip godfather, that leaves nocmen as a potential mafia godfather, or ctorj I suppose)

hohum, you are probably going to die in the night, so we might as well get your reads out now. What are your thoughts between nocmen and ctorj?

[Magister Ludi]

Yes.

[Magister Ludi]

Alright, enough of these sheningans. This game has been a cluster fuck anyways.

Twisted, I am going to hammer you within a few posts. You're going to die. Seriously, I'm not changing my mind.

When you die as black scum watcher, you faction loses. Red scum will have a chance to win. After this whole game, red scum is going to beat you. If you have seen or tracked either of Nocmen or ctorj to any previous nightkill, out it now. You've lost anyways, but don't lose it to the red scum, do it for the town, who have had to fight through eight different scum and a bloody serial killer.

On the off chance you dont flip scum, the scum has got to be Nocmen---->

godfather

, ctorj ----->

watcher

So to ctorj and Nocmen, if you dont shoot the other person, and instead shoot town, the other scum IS GOING to shot you, and you will lose anyways.

[Magister Ludi]

Um, what? How would I know he is going to come up town, no matter what alignment I am (town or scum)?

[Magister Ludi]

Um, if you flip miller then that means Nocmen and ctorj are scum. Where is the hole in the logic here?

And nocmen, the scum teams are obviously the same. so there is still a red godfather roaming about.

[Magister Ludi]

Nocmen, its easy.

Hohum: Claim Cop Guilty on twisted
Twisted Claim miller
ctorj
Noc
Lud

If twisted = scum, then hohum is town, I am still town, and it comes down to Noc or ctorj (because of godfather), but I'm probably going to vote Ctorj anyways.

However, if twisted actually = miller, hohum is still town (unless we don't believe claim, but i do) I am still town, twisted is town, Nocmen and ctorj remain and there are two scum. Ergo, both are scum

[Magister Ludi]

I mean, what else is the point of a 'miller' and godfathers.

[Magister Ludi]

What sort of nonsence statement is that? (Unless you want to claim scum and make it easier on us)

Yeah, I'm town, my actions and play this whole game prove it. I don't understand what the point of your statement was, you think I doubt if I am town or not?

[Magister Ludi]

Why?

[Magister Ludi]

Ctorj just needs to be dead period.

I'm leaning more likely to him being scum, but he's done basically nothing all game and should be lynched.

[Magister Ludi]

Pending ctorj I vote.

[Magister Ludi]

Agree with hohum.

Deadline short is no bueno

[Magister Ludi]

Enough has been said already over six days. I just want to hear from ctorj. Seriously.

[Magister Ludi]

I want to lynch twisted but we need another vote.

Follow?

[Magister Ludi]

Actually, At this point I'm ready to just lynch ctorj to get this game over with.

[Magister Ludi]

Vote: twistedspoon

[Magister Ludi]

If a cop claims with a guilty on you, claiming miller shouldn't get you out of it. And twisted, your crumb was apparently directed at 'cjmiller'

(anyways, 9 anti-town players, vs town in a normal with no town power besides cops seems unbalanced. This would be a miracle pull off)

[Magister Ludi]

Well at long last this game will be almost be coming to a close.

ctorj is confirmed mafia at this point. If you want to talk about his last post, sending threats about what to do when 'I die' is never a town tell.

[Magister Ludi]

Why would we have been lynching spoon? You would of gotten a not guilty!

Anyways, if it actually is hohum, well played. Unnesessarily warring with black scum pine for days would have been a professional move. But I don't see it.

I was willing to lynch ctorj yesterday as well.

Vote: ctorj

[Magister Ludi]

Gah, is it hohum?

Well, you had one town guy who completely flaked from the game, and didn't post for up the last eight days and wasn't replaced. I'll rant a bit more after official.

[Magister Ludi]

Town had one mislynch, and that was two days ago when it seemed improbable to me that there could be 9 anti town factions in a mini, and 3 scum were on the lynch (and the other was our chronic lurker)

[Magister Ludi]

How is nine anti town players in a 22 player normal even close to being considered balanced.

Who reviewed this? Did no one bring up concerns?