NY136: The Death of ReaperCharlie (GAME OVER, Town win!)

[Hydra]

Greetings,

The Hydra account is a hydra of Thor and Magister Ludi.
This is Thor, I won't ever really sign my posts - just look for the awesome ones and those will be me.
Hullo to everyone I've played with/killed/been killed by.

Vote: kondi2424

This is a PL early speed lynch of someone I have no knowledge of their actual play, right? Awesome, I want in.

[Hydra]

So your hydra is going to be non-cohesive and can effectively contradict itself at will?

How did I say or even imply that?

@Parama - why AGM and not yos? Yos is waaay scummier than AGM right this second (as long as AGM can produce an actual coherent answer to my question).

[Hydra]

Oh, wait, no - never mind, AGM is waaaaaay scummier then yos - I read the preview order wrong.

[Hydra]

I thought he'd voted prior to AGM's vote.

[Hydra]

I thought he'd voted prior to AGM's vote.

Why does that matter?

You don't see it?

3 dudes are quick wagoning up a guy.
4th dude comes in and...doesn't join quick wagon, or even comment on it, and votes someone else entirely.

AGM can get special awesome points for voting one of the first three guys and not mentioning the quick wagon that those three are doing. Seriously.

I begin to barely see a faint glimmer of why people expressed kondi issues in pre-game. I'll play the neighbor wagon game, AGM is 2nd top, petroljam is a weak third.

[Hydra]

In other words, you are giving yourself free reign to backpeadal reads and votes at will by saying phrases like, "After talking it over with my partner" or "my other head was wrong about that vote - this is what we actually think."

Or, instead of signing posts, I was making a joke about how you could spot mine.
First off - every Hydra in existence uses the "after discussing it with my partner" thing - THAT'S SORTA THE POINT OF HAVING A PARTNER.
Second off - if we go into crazy dissonance then you might have an issue, until then - not so much.
Third off - I fail to see how "I won't sign posts" translates to "I will change reads constantly and use a partner as a cover story"

Yeah. I'm going to move from the kondi PL to the Hydra PL if the Hydra doesn't start signing every single post it makes.

I'd switch right now then. ML might be willing to - I flat out refuse. You can ask me to say, if you think it will make any sort of difference, but I'm not going to bother to remember to sign a post every time I make it.

[Hydra]

Hydra, did you just assume that the kondi wagon was an RVS wagon in #36?

Yes. Three votes in three posts is a quick wagon.
Would you have had an issue if I called it a slow wagon?

3 dudes are quick wagoning up a guy.
4th dude comes in and...doesn't join quick wagon, or even comment on it, and votes someone else entirely.

Why does that matter?

Because three votes in three posts deserves at least a grunt of awareness.

[Hydra]

JUST a "quick" wagon, or an RVS wagon too?

There's a fine line. I just want to make sure that I have all of your implications.

I was never on an RVS wagon, because I don't think they exist.
I believed you and Parama were doing a policy lynch/RVS wagon - yes.

SensFan is scum for locking down his vote because he doesn't like another poster's habits that are irrelevant to a scum/town play.

[Hydra]

Since that's coming from Ythan I feel obligated to answer;

The only way I see them as relevant to pro town/anti-town play is in the following conditions;

1. This account commits multiple acts of disavowing and changing its opinions based on "new head posting" type shenanigans.
2. Someone here has awesome capability to read me and/or ML and needs to know who is posting what in order to use their super powers to assess our playstyle.

Until we do #1 I consider the demand to be bookkeeping effort on my part "in case" we do something bad that we aren't going to do - so I don't feel like doing the work for the benefit of a paranoid and silly few.
I personally don't buy into #2 at all from anyone here - but if someone would like to make a case for how they can read me/ML so well that it really matters, let me know and we'll take it from there.

Did I miss anything?

[Hydra]

@Ythan - I accept them as valid.
I addressed my counters to both - which do you feel is an unreasonable counter and why?

Also - why are you picking at this instead of voting? Even if all you want to do is pressure me to play your way, you could at least threaten me with your vote and advance the game state some more, yeah?

[Hydra]

A Hydra is two players playing together and fills one slot - it is clear what we are doing, in your example it is not clear. I don't find it a reasonable comparison, but would agree that I would desire a system to differentiate posts.
How about we try to get ML to sign all his posts and whenever a post isn't signed it's Thor. That would work for me and for your criteria, and would be backwards compatible.

There - now you and Ythan can start scumhunting instead of toying with a null tell for useless town appearing points.

[Hydra]

One player who always signs and one who never does is exactly as distinct as two who always sign.
You're being ridiculous, though at least now you're using some grapefruits to do it.

[Hydra]

12 violations of #1 and counting. So how about we start signing posts, eh?

@Ythan - I'm being honest, even if I agreed to sign my posts, I wouldn't because I'd forget and consider it unimportant. Because it is unimportant. I grasp your complaints, I'm just not willing to comply to them in the way you desire and have even offered a compromise that meets your claimed criteria (except for SensFan claiming we've changed our opinion 12 times and used the other head as a reason - which is pants on head wtf. So really it's you, and AGM, and I think AGM is scum so I'm pretty meh on his desires).

[Hydra]

@SensFan - could you link me to some games of yours you played with other hydras?

[Hydra]

^^^
My partner dramatically disagrees with this post.

[Hydra]

@Parama - I'll second the 'whut?' because I think I'm reading it totally different.

@Kondi - if you thought you were all three confirmed...why did you discuss letting the other two lynch you? If you're confirmed they wouldn't want to, yeah?

[Hydra]

@DH - You're voting us while explaining why you unvoted. Not the cleanest jump ever. Whassup?

Let's also talk this over - you read your role PM, and you think you're confirmed neighbors (also known as masons - but let's go with this) your first post is going to be "Hey guys, don't lynch me just yet..."

Really?

@MoI - I appreciate the leap on Sens for lack of logic because, hey, it's great for me and digging at his narrow scoped world might help him out too. I'd still like you to weigh in on the pink elephant in the room though, and that's the tri-neighbor-masons(?).

@Meran - if Parama doesn't get to it first, how about you explain the obvious town slip from kondi? I'm still blatantly missing it.

[Hydra]

And I think that everyone but you agrees on that, unless I'm mistaken.

Maybe so, doesn't make it right or me wrong. So you seriously believe that a mason would try to convince his mason buddies not to lynch him?

What about it do you think I’m not commenting on?

The townslip.

I’m in pretty much full agreement with AGM that 1 of the 3 probably is Mafia or a Serial Killer of some sort.

You're voting Sens, right?

Do you think we should restrict our lynching to those three players to maximize the chances of hitting scum?

If I believed one of them had to be scum - yeah, a pool of 33% scum with chance to clear 33-66% as town looks like prime hunting to me.
I don't know if I actually buy into that, but I have also expressed a serious question I feel is being shuttled aside under "lol, townslip!" and that is - what sort of 'confirmed alignment' player talks to his confirmed buddies and tells them early on that they shouldn't lynch him just yet - does not compute.

why the hell are you still voting kondi

Because I think he's scum and don't like the counterwagon on me. What of it?

kondi legitimately thought we were all confirmed town to each other. all I need to do is read his post in the neighborhood to confirm that.

Please paraphrase it again.

[Hydra]

They were talking about lynching me before I posted in the QT.

Me: Oh, hai Parama.
Parama: kondi. Ew. Otherwise, best neighborhood. We should lynch him to improve the quality of the neighbor team.
Me: Sure. What do you say, kondi?
kondi: (his post)

RVS pressuring was happening before the game even started.

That changes the flow most certainly. Hmmm.

Unvote: kondi
Vote: Meransal

@Meran - clearly I'm just still being dumb, could you point me to the part of the thread where DH/Parama/kondi explained the above already? You were calling it a townslip, but without knowledge of the flow of the conversation in the QT I'm not sure I understand how you got there. What did I miss? You explained the townslip by basically explaining really bad mason play - could you explicitly explain the 'townslip'?

In other news, AGM remains scummier than Sens Fan - other people don't seem to notice.

[Hydra]

@ the alleged rolefishing: I like the way you guys fail to think game-specific and hit it with broad, universal logic that may or may not apply in this particular game. But I already disclosed my reasons for my request, and I'd like others to also weigh in on that, objectively, without bsing theis way on my wagon.

I consider the rolefishing pretty obvious that it happened, you openly claimed you wanted to know if they were PRs.
I find it so blatant I'm not sure I see brilliant scum motivation there, it's also so blatant it's clear that regardless of your alignment *you* don't think it's scummy - therefore it's not a stand alone scumtell.

[Hydra]

Meransiel wagon to date that germinated solely based on the role-fishing accusation

– Shanba, DH, Kondi, Hydra, Petro

I specifically called out why I got on Meran - it's not role-fishing.

@Hydra

– if you don’t see the brilliant scum motivation for Meran’s role-fishing why did you vote for him (other than him being a great competing wagon)?

As discussed - in my opinion he was using logic unavailable to him without an inside track on the QT.

In other news, AGM remains scummier than Sens Fan - other people don't seem to notice.

Please elaborate on why you believe this. Because looking at Sensfan’s ISO I see the following –

Hopping on Kondi wagon with no thought involved (assuming it was a policy lynch)
Pushing scumtastically stupid reasoning to vote Hydra.
Defense of said stupid reasoning in scummy manner.

I don’t see any semblance of scum-hunting. I also don’t see much in the way of opinions (other than that he himself isn’t scummy).

He's putting himself out too far on an idiot scumtell drive. Really, he picked up the ball from AGM, and then he ran with it - okay, maybe scummy.
However, while some other players (Ythan, Parama, maybe someone else) sorta picked up on it, most of them dropped it at the wayside pretty quickly.
Then some other players actually came in and said (in as many words) "This is stupid, is null...heck, you're scummy for still pushing it"
What is Sens doing? He's *still* pushing it. Yeah, it's silly, yeah, it's terrible, but he clearly and honestly believes he's right.

What has AGM done after starting this whole kerfluffle?

Absou-frickin'-lutely nothing. He hasn't even commented on it since his initial pop. He's doing other stuff and acting like he's not even a part of it.
Totally scum who is totally happy with the explosion he started.
Sens is mislead tunnel town.

@Mer

- so the "townslip" is him not admitting he is in a scum QT right now? Yeah...

Could you explain how that works with this post? It's not till after this post that Parama verifies that kondi thought they were confirmed, and you don't appear to be suggesting that what kondi "suggested" (not being in a non confirmed QT) is what he was talking about. In other words - I feel you're shifting your story here.

What am I missing?

[Hydra]

As discussed - in my opinion he was using logic unavailable to him without an inside track on the QT.

Ok. Let's say I was using logic unavailable to me without an inside track on the QT. That would make me scum. Except you DON'T know if scum have daytalk. Probably not.

I just want this one on its own, so we can all consider.
His defense of my scumtell on him is that I can't know that scum have Daytalk and that they probably don't.
Really.
Not, 'no, I wasn't using inside knowledge'
Not, 'here, let me show you how you're messing that up'
But 'Well, that would only work if scum have Daytalk'
Really.

OMGLOLWTF

I'll catch up with everything else now.

[Hydra]

By the way, Thor, you still didn't tell me why you don't have a problem with the people voting me just for the rolefish. MoI and Iecerint are scum.

1. You're complaining that I'm not defending you enough? I don't see it as a great scumtell - I don't see it as a town tell though, and I certainly don't see it as nebulous enough of a scumtell to advance any of my slot's credibility in your defense.
2. Iec (I'mma start a new wagon) is scum? Yeah...no. You also ended your post calling Iec out for a towntell and then are going to slip that in...whu?

If I believed one of them had to be scum - yeah, a pool of 33% scum with chance to clear 33-66% as town looks like prime hunting to me.
I don't know if I actually buy into that

I don't like the indecisiveness here. You either think that there's scum in the neighborhood, or you think that they might all be town.

Learn to read. I'm actually saying I'm not certain - I see no reason why I should have absolute assurance of them being all town or not - you just said we should assess them each as a player, which means you have the same opinion I hold. So...what the frell?

I don't know. I do know that there's very weird motivation that he would agree to a lynch when he thought we were all confirmed. Why would masons want to lynch one of the masonhood? They wouldn't, so it rang as very strange. There DEFINITELY wasn't any town motivation behind that post; the scum motivation was "Let me agree to this lynch and hopefully these guys will accept me", with no notification that he thought we were all confirmed. No questioning of "Hey, if we're confirmed, then why do you guys want to lynch me?"

I feel like you're regurgitating me, thoughts?

What has AGM done after starting this whole kerfluffle?

Absou-frickin'-lutely nothing. He hasn't even commented on it since his initial pop. He's doing other stuff and acting like he's not even a part of it.
Totally scum who is totally happy with the explosion he started.
Sens is mislead tunnel town.

True, but what has SensFan done other than repeat himself over and over? Also, if I'm scummy now for not doing anything, why was I scummy in your last post (it's quoted in my post here)? Please explain from that POV.

You posted after Sens assault, and after me telling him to sod off, and added...bupkiss to the conversation topic.
Oh, but you think it's a good topic. Right.

And...why am I wrong?

Wow.
Well, first off, they said all the conversation happened prior to game start. So, all Mafia would need is prior to gamestart chat - which I've really never not seen.
Second, Daytalk neighbors.
Third - YOU USED WHETHER OR NOT SCUM HAD DAYTALK TO DEFEND FROM A SCUMTELL INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING HOW YOU KNEW REGARDLESS OF SCUM DAY/NIGHTALK!

Really happy with Meran lynch.
Happy with AGM lynch too, but happier with Meran.

[Hydra]

I said nothing about defending me. Why, you can only play by having 1 suspect at a time?

Why aren't you attacking the people voting me for a reason you don't agree with?
I'm not asking you to defend me though...

2. Iec (I'mma start a new wagon) is scum? Yeah...no. You also ended your post calling Iec out for a towntell and then are going to slip that in...whu?

I...what? I called Iecer scum. And gave reasons why.

Am not feeling any of the popular wagons. I think Meransiel is town. Am not sure enough about 1 scum in the Neighborhood.

I REALLY don't like this post. Towncred.

I'll agree looking at it again I suppose it wasn't clever sarcasm and was instead just unclever typo. The thing is - I *do* think that's a towncred post, and thought you did as well.

they said all the conversation happened prior to game start

Oh God no...

I have been served.
Oh...wait...
No, I haven't.

[Hydra]

@Hydra

– has Magister Ludi even weighed in behind the scenes?

I have a lot of information on how he apologizes and on his current schedule. The only thing really game related he weighed in on was that the people asking for signatures were "weenies" which is not drastically game related but I'm happy to get it out in the open.

As discussed - in my opinion he was using logic unavailable to him without an inside track on the QT.

So you see him jumping on the ‘It was a Townslip’ theme started by Parama ( I think ) as evidence of having inside knowledge? If you can summarize clearly what how this line of thoughts works for me I’d appreciate it because I’m not puzzling it out from your posts (or I’m stupid).

You can't use the "I'm stupid" thing, that's my schtick and only me and Socrates are allowed.
Here's the basic gist;

Parama: Townslip, ho!
Meran: Yes, total and obvious townslip!
Thor: Buh? What townslip - explain pl0x.
Parama: Because of what he said in the QT paired with this it makes sense as a townslip.
Thor: Meran, what townslip did you see?
Meran: Oh...that post, um...just that post, totally a town tell.
Thor: I think you're using inside knowledge and are changing your story.
Meran: That wouldn't work unless scum have Daytalk.
Thor:

I can link relevant posts if you really want, but I think that should explain the flow pretty well. Meran leapt at the townslip as obvious, but now is having to basically say that the townslip was a...post that looked town to him...which seems nothing remotely like a townslip to me so...wtf?

On other topics of 177 you seem to be saying Sensfan is ‘Too scummy for scum’ in his horrible attack on you. I hate that reasoning but understand people ascribe to it.

What do you think of Sens’ total lack of scum-hunting.

1. You're attacking my town read there in a very roundabout way. It's not that I think he's 'too scummy to be scum' it's that I think scum wouldn't keep pressing on something as silly and little (and unsupported in thread) as that while it was actively making other posters start to consider them scummy and/or stupid. There is so little gain there unless they're banking on someone white knighting them up for being silly scum.

2. I find it terrible. However, I do not find it a glaring exception to the rule of the thread. Is there anything making him worse than all the other bleh contributors this game? Because otherwise we're doing a basic lurk/VI/whatevs policy lynch here and I'm not sure why I should be more excited for one than another.

[Hydra]

@Hydra: About the dialogue reenactment thingie...you're straight on. That's why I'm currently hitting my head with my fists.

When I catch up (doing so now) if Meran isn't gaining any other votes than I am going to want to know why.

@Meran - please explain how you did this as "town" and why we shouldn't be speed lynching you, and why I shouldn't be screaming at everyone to lynch you na0w.

[Hydra]

Sensfan hardly is a ‘policy lynch’. He’s posting with regularity but doing NO scum-hunting at all. He’s focus solely on “Sign Your Post” gate, defending how Townie “Sign Your Post” gate is, and fluffing.

Who else do you think aren’t at least attempting to do some scum-hunting while being active?

Slightly silly to mention now, but relevant at the time of my post - Ythan.
There are also some active lurkers, and I personally find those worse than people who scumhunt poorly.

You posted after Sens assault, and after me telling him to sod off, and added...bupkiss to the conversation topic.
Oh, but you think it's a good topic. Right.

First, I started this. Second, I posted before SensFan did. Third, I agreed with SensFan, and there's nothing wrong with agreeing with people instead of restating what they said.

Like I said, I agree that I hadn't contributed much before. But neither had SensFan. Hydra ise picking and choosing who he thinks is scummy.

1. I know you started it - that's part of the scumtell.
2. You dropped off the face of the world once actual pressure was brought on me, and posted with no commentary about the ongoing debate.
3. You sneak in a snide cheek against me in this post though - yar, I am never signing, vote accordingly.
4. What does that last line even mean? You're saying you're scummy but Sens is equal levels of scummy?
^^^

@MoI

- THIS #4 right here, this is why AGM is waaaaay scummier than Sens.

Hydra- You were completely on the fence about it. Scum love to sit back and not take action. You didn't solidly come to a conclusive decision about the possibility of all of them being town. Its not the end result of your decision, its how you got there(which is basically the whole game)

I had to go back and figure out what this conversation line was even about.

You're accusing me of being a scummy fencesitter when I didn't come out conclusively and say whether or not there was scum in the neighborhood?


Okay; two things,

1. Please list all the players who came out conclusively with an opinion.
2. Enjoy your stay in the scum pool. You can join that Ear guy too, you should both visit Vigville, USA if at all possible.

As discussed - in my opinion he [Meransiel] was using logic unavailable to him without an inside track on the QT.

Link me to prior discussion?

Parama: Townslip, ho!
Meran: Yes, total and obvious townslip!
Thor: Buh? What townslip - explain pl0x.
Parama: Because of what he said in the QT paired with this it makes sense as a townslip.
Thor: Meran, what townslip did you see?
Meran: Oh...that post, um...just that post, totally a town tell.
Thor: I think you're using inside knowledge and are changing your story.
Meran: That wouldn't work unless scum have Daytalk.
Thor:

Did this really happen? I guess this is what you were referring to that I asked about above? EDIT: Oh, yeah. MoI asked the same thing thing and you're answering him... ^^;

And Meran admitted that it was accurate and EVERBODY IS AVOIDING COMMENTING ON IT!
Yeah, what's up?

Stuff from page 6:

why the hell are you still voting kondi

Because I think he's scum and don't like the counterwagon on me. What of it?

Why do you think he's scum?

If you're reading back then you ought to be able to find a post where I explain it.
At page 6 the reason was this;

1. If it's before he did the 'confirmed neighbor thing' I was doing it to bandwagon.
2/ If it's after the 'confirmed neighbor' thing it's because he was trying to explain to his "confirmed" buddies not to lynch him...and that is sketchy as heck and suggests he was goofy as heck scum, or flat out lying about believing he was scum.

kondi legitimately thought we were all confirmed town to each other. all I need to do is read his post in the neighborhood to confirm that.

Please paraphrase it again.

Nah. Don't feel like it.

Because...the last thing you want to do is...help confirm...obv. town? Bwuh?

[Hydra]

^^^
Sorry about that, I'm just not logging into the hydra as much as I do my regular account, so you get my responses in a wall. Most of that is only relevant to the people I'm responding to - I separated out the Meran thing because it needs more attention. Had one important bit in their for MoI as regards AGM=scum (frankly there's some good general AGM=scum that everyone should look at)

[Hydra]

I AM FAIRLY LIKELY TO GO SCREAMING DEATH CLAN IF MORE PEOPLE DON'T AT LEAST START COMMENTING ON MERAN CLAIMING SCUM.

I CAN DO THIS, I JUST TURN ON CAPS LOCK AND TYPE WHATEVER COMES INTO MY HEAD, AND I BECOME A BETTER SCUMHUNTER BECAUSE OF IT.

...DANDELION!

[Hydra]

And since people are barely noticing this whole case form, and I'll have a decent chance of death via murder - this would make at least one neighbor scum as well.
Thank you.

[Hydra]

HEY, PARAMA!!!

NEIGHBOR GUY!

WEIGH IN ON MERAN AND DON'T DUCK OUT AND AVOID IT!

[Hydra]

@Parama - then maybe you should be explaining why this pile of people on Meran is wrong and we should all be lynching MoI? Because that weaksauce wagon isn't going anywhere quick, and YOU'RE IGNORING MERAN ADMITTING TO BEING SCUM BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ATTACK MULTIPLE PEOPLE!?!

::insert lengthy rage post here which in basic tl:dr format equates to, I am awesome, everyone else is an idiot, and people should do what I say. Also, Parama's mother/girlfriend/wife/favorite pet and I have had improper relations and I have video to prove it.::

@Meran - yeah, scum never kill people who seem to be focused and clear in their suspicions.

[Hydra]

V/LA from now until Monday, June 27th.

If kondi comes in and goes V/LA without commenting on Meran I may just replace out of this game and take up fishing.

[Hydra]

Actually, I think I get where Parama is going with this. UNVOTE: VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

RAZZLEBERRY CUPCAKES!!!

Asks lots of questions to lots of people and AVOIDS MY MERAN CASE LIKE A PLAGUE!

There may be other legitimately sketchy things (e.g. Hydra's claim that Meransiel just kind of pretended to understand Kondi's towntell), but all the focus on the rolefishing is bad.

HEY, I AM DEFENDING MERAN WHILE ADMITING THERE IS A CASE OUT THERE WITH POSSIBLE MERIT, BUT I WILL AVOID DEBATING/DISCUSSING IT LIKE THE PLAGUE!

@Parama - then maybe you should be explaining why this pile of people on Meran is wrong and we should all be lynching MoI? Because that weaksauce wagon isn't going anywhere quick, and YOU'RE IGNORING MERAN ADMITTING TO BEING SCUM BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ATTACK MULTIPLE PEOPLE!?!

Show me where Meran claimed scum?

The conversation has already been paraphrased at least once <_<
Hey look, you

took my quote out of context (sorta)

SIDESTEPPED EVEN ADMITTING IT EXISTS, AS THOUGH IT WERE A PLAGUE and then asked me to clarify.
Funnily enough, I clarified plenty in

that

MANY postS and in previous posts made, but

when you take things out of context you lose all that,

NEED TO AVOID IT LIKE A PLAGUE don't you?

HERE;

Here's the basic gist;

Parama: Townslip, ho!
Meran: Yes, total and obvious townslip!
Thor: Buh? What townslip - explain pl0x.
Parama: Because of what he said in the QT paired with this it makes sense as a townslip.
Thor: Meran, what townslip did you see?
Meran: Oh...that post, um...just that post, totally a town tell.
Thor: I think you're using inside knowledge and are changing your story.
Meran: That wouldn't work unless scum have Daytalk.
Thor:

I can link relevant posts if you really want, but I think that should explain the flow pretty well. Meran leapt at the townslip as obvious, but now is having to basically say that the townslip was a...post that looked town to him...which seems nothing remotely like a townslip to me so...wtf?

@Hydra: About the dialogue reenactment thingie...you're straight on. That's why I'm currently hitting my head with my fists.

When I catch up (doing so now) if Meran isn't gaining any other votes than I am going to want to know why.

@Meran - please explain how you did this as "town" and why we shouldn't be speed lynching you, and why I shouldn't be screaming at everyone to lynch you na0w.

AND THEN HE BASICALLY KEPT SAYING 'CAN'T DEFEND IT, WON'T TRY, YOU SHOULD LYNCH ME'
So - he's town who decides to say someone townslipped off of information he had ABSOLUTELY NO WAY OF KNOWING.
or
He's scum who either has access to the QT or a quick breakdown of it courtesy of a scummy buddy - or he's agreeing with the townslip because he's scum who already knows kondi's alignment and wanted to look good.

Now we are lynching him!

[Hydra]

It's where he brought up that thing with the towntell and I admitted I have no defense against it. I don't see why it's a scumclaim tho.

THOR, WHERE THE SMURF DID I ASK TO BE LYNCHED.

Smurf this, Thor is confirmed town from his behavior but SMURF if I don't feel the urge to crack his skull open.

@Meran - please explain how you did this as "town" and why we shouldn't be speed lynching you, and why I shouldn't be screaming at everyone to lynch you na0w.

You should. I have no excuse for that.

This is asking to be lynched.

Also, for both Iec and Meran - here is why it's a scumtell;

So - he's town who decides to say someone townslipped off of information he had ABSOLUTELY NO WAY OF KNOWING.
or
He's scum who either has access to the QT or a quick breakdown of it courtesy of a scummy buddy - or he's agreeing with the townslip because he's scum who already knows kondi's alignment and wanted to look good.

[Hydra]

Yeah, and his defense to my accusation being 'but scum would need Daytalk for that to make sense' which is so many light years away from - I made a mistake, or I just really had a serious town read on him that it is not even funny.
And I.
Know.
Funny.

[Hydra]

And how is my pursuit of him a town tell if his situation isn't scum city central and he just got done with telling me there's no way I would die because scum don't kill foolish tunnelers!?! Graaaaah!

[Hydra]

@ Hydra -- How did he have no way of knowing about it...? It was posted about in-thread....

Did he claim the townslip before it started to be elucidated?

Also, it sounds like you're suggesting that at least one of DH and Parama are scum with Meransiel?

1. Parama claimed verification of the slip off of what was said in the neighbor thread - all we knew had been said in the thread was that kondi said 'hey guys, we're neighbors, let me die to confirm you, kthxbye' if you think there's a townslip to be had from him later saying he thought they were masons...let me know.

2. He claimed immediately after Parama but couldn't explain the townslip despite agreeing "STRONGLY" that there was one. Parama explained it as "with information from the QT" I think Meran claimed the townslip, and then realized he couldn't explain it off of info in thread which is why he later claimed that kondi's post was a towntell (and good gawd, how?) and then flat out denied he could explain the townslip and started using scum daytalk as a way to defend himself.

3. I see that as a pretty strong indicator, yes. If he's scum, I've got five bucks that says one of them is too.

[Hydra]

Magister Ludi here! (The quiet half of this fabulous hydra. Been a busy week with orientation activities, I've had no time to play)

~~~

There will be insights, I don't plan on rushing. I've read all of Thor's thoughts in our quicktopic, but I'll be reading these pages myself.

[Hydra]

0.

As for the whole Hydra business, I joined up with Thor so that we could play with one voice and bounce reads off of eachother in an attempt to figure out who is town and who is scum needing to be lynched, and so that the workload could be minimized for each of us. Considering its been only Thor so far, this shouldn't have been a problem.

Anyways,

1.

Things that should not still be being talked about:
1. Simply Being a hydra (Alamaster and Sens). AGM vote still being here based on this point is terrible. Its like signing the time of day when posting, it serves no purpose and no one cares. Voting or pointing out when players make illogically made out arguments or circular logic is town, voting over something that is unimportant to the game in general (time of day, my mood, what I had for lunch is anti-town.)
2. There neighbors. If one is scum, vote them. If not, it makes no sense to simply lynch through them in an effort to find scum. There could be 0,1,2 scum neighbors, and it makes no sense to arbitrarly lynch. Yosarian's point in this regard is actually very relevant, given a 50-50 chance of a scum neighbor, its worse odds than lynching at random.

2.

things that do need addressing:

Hydra, I don't want the Town to lose, so instead of pushing my lynch like there's no tomorrow, we can do 2 things:

1. Push my lynch further, but NOT like there's no tomorrow.
2. We both replace out, and discuss the game.

Seriously, BOTH those options are more pro-town than what you're doing now.

I'm much less sold on the win-tasticness of this lynch than Thor is (seriously, three out of the five people on this lynch are langushing and don't appear to be pushing their convictions about this lynch), but I have to ask about this post. I don't understand how you think it is more pro-town of us to continue pushing a lynch on the one person you should know is confirmed town (yourself), but not quite as 'heavily' as has been done before. Could you explain this?

The aim when we vote someone is either to run them up to a lynch for being scum, or argue for their lynch up until a time that we no longer think the person is scum. Pushing lazily on people in scum sided.

I'm also interested in who your two strongest town reads are the next time you post.

3.

In that regard (Meran), I also believe your/the MagnaofIllusion wagon is terrible. We share a strong town read on Magna, and I dont believe the votes being there are being used properly or at all well. These votes need to move to another place.

4.

My strongest town reads at this point are Yosarian2, Magna, and saporovirus. Their insight and pushes so far have sounded very pro-town.

[Hydra]

Yeah, at this point i'm more sure than not that Meran is town. This vote is going other places,

Unvote
Vote: AlamasterGM

This wagon needs to happen.

And meran, for the Magna town read, its a feeling I get from his posts of a pro-town mindset. He asks many questions I was thinking as I (re)read the thread, and though some of his logic is wrong and maybe I disagree with (while a lot is right), I can see where he is coming from. It doesn't feel as though his thought process is coming from scum.

I'd actually be a lot happier if you (re:everyone on that wagon) got off his wagon and joined this one.

I can't believe AGM doesn't have more votes, and people seem to be avoiding mentioning it, or if they do its a passing statement about how 'yeah, he's acting scummy' with no vote behind it. This apathy is usually what I associate when trying to get a wagon on scum.

[Hydra]

I wasn't talking about the same townslip as Parama.

Which townslip were you talking about? I asked you about it before and you weren't able to vocalize it, so...?

[Hydra]

@AGM: why are you slamming Hydra for not signing their posts when you aren't signing them as part of Final Destination in [REDACTED]?

This question is super full of win. I may need to change my stance on earworm.

My biggest scumread is still on Hrezszs, who is lurking and not going to be lynched by all accounts. I think his few posts are particularly scummy because they basically repeat what others say while passing it off as his own thoughts and show little to no interest in finding scums.

Hrezs also still needs to explain how Hydra was the only fencesitter on the 'is there scum in the neighbors' question. I'm not forgetting that one.

Can you please explain your town read on Magna? Also, can you remove your vote from me, given your stance?

Begging to the sloppy nice head, eh?

In any case, onto this one since I very much share Ludi's conclusion - can you explain how Magna is scum? He's doing very much his usual barrage of assaults, and the few conclusions he drew that people are dancing around going 'ooooh, scum!' about were not solid conclusions and were instead proffered thoughts if the conclusion was correct - which is 100% perfectly normal. Other than that he's been aggressive, has provided reads, and has debated the merits of scum cases while advancing his own. He looks very much town to me and my Hydra mate as well.

Yeah, at this point i'm more sure than not that Meran is town. This vote is going other places,

I will clarify this is a *hotly* debated point within the hydra at the moment and I personally think half of me is an idiot. That said, I conceded I would allow the unvote shift to AGM since AGM is very scummy as well. He somewhat sold me on how no one else is pushing the Meran lynch but us, despite the number of voters on him. That was at least 'eeeeh' enough to allow me to shift to AGM. But I'm going to keep working on this one in our QT.

[Hydra]

I’m also rather mystified that Sensfan who already has three votes is getting ZERO attention from players (I’m thinking of

Hydra

at 342 and Yos at 341) while AGM is catching solid heat for THE EXACT SAME REASONS!!!!

I have explicitly explained to you why I have a town read on Sens and a scum read on AGM and how I believe their actions are EXACTLY NOT THE SAME. Other head is at least listening to me on that one, though it took some work. Whassup?

Hydra, I don't want the Town to lose, so instead of pushing my lynch like there's no tomorrow, we can do 2 things:

1. Push my lynch further, but NOT like there's no tomorrow.
2. We both replace out, and discuss the game.

Seriously, BOTH those options are more pro-town than what you're doing now.

How again would Town autolose if you were mislynched Day 1 of a Large Game again?

It's not his mislynch - it's that I'm tunneling him
Yeah, that post is terrible.
You're not even aware of the best part - he has been in PM conversation with me, wanting reviews of games of his...to help his scum game. Looking at #2 I flip the frell out at that one.

[Hydra]

I'll go look at AGM in ISO and get back to you.

Make sure to pay attention to how he sounded when he brought up the hydra issues, and then notice where that debate was as he goes off and posts other things, and then how when I call him on it suddenly he brings up how non-signature hydras are baaad boys again.

@Meran - as you believe you are town, shouldn't MoI showing how scum could be attacking you help clarify for your own mind where scum are? What's the issue here?

[Hydra]

The townslip is...what then?
How is that a townslip - why don't you walk me through it and explain how that translates to him being town and how it was 'slipped' as opposed to the more conventional town 'tell.'

While we're at it - what were you planning to chat with me about if we'd both replaced out?

[Hydra]

OHydra- I've told you why your neighbor stance was scummy. You basically mentioned the issue with saying nothing, as if you felt obligated to comment on it without saying anything. Not even a definitive stance to say nothing.

You said we were fencesitting.
You appear to believe no one else was.
I'll agree AGM and Dh came out with opinions, but everyone else?
here's some quotes;

By the way, what are the chances of a pure town 3 man neighborhood?

True, that's legit, we should only lynch from the neighborhood if the neighbors themselves feel like it's legit. And/or if we get some night info, of course.

This looks suspiciously like lining up lynches. What happens in the case of a 3-town neighborhood? "Oops, I guess there weren't any scum in that neighborhood, I dun goofed guize!"

Do you think we should restrict our lynching to those three players to maximize the chances of hitting scum?

If I believed one of them had to be scum - yeah, a pool of 33% scum with chance to clear 33-66% as town looks like prime hunting to me. I don't know if I actually buy into that

Exactly for the reason MoI and AGM stated: In most cases, there is at least 1 scum in a 3 man neighborhood.

I still think this finding scum in the neighborhood should be just picked up later when it would benefit us more through info we get.

It's possible the whole neighborhood is town. Neither of them seem especially scummy to me.

I've also got a weird gut feeling about you, mostly because of your attacks on the neighbors. If all 3 neighbors are, in fact, town
-------------------------------

Let me know which one is our scummy fencesitting and which ones are the clear and concise conclusions about scum in the neighborhood, yeah? Oh...what's that...trouble picking out which was ours? Here it is again;
"If I believed one of them had to be scum - yeah, a pool of 33% scum with chance to clear 33-66% as town looks like prime hunting to me. I don't know if I actually buy into that"
Yeah *totally* more fencesitting than anything else said at the same time.

[Hydra]

Your list of lurkers bemuses me. What metric are you using to judge a lurker?

Who would you classify as a lurker.
More importantly - who would you classify as not being viable with their vote right now?

I like MoI's thrust - there's definitely at least 1-2 scum hiding in the non voters and low wagon mooks. This is a good snapshot VC for that. There's also probably at least 1 scum on each of the big wagons, money in the bank.

@MoI - the heart and soul of DHscum is his wtf-ness around the kondi push considering his past neighbor experiences, yeah?

I'm conflicted right now, because other than Hrezs I am rather more enamored by the people on the DH wagon, but am much more sold by the AGM case. I really want to see a couple of the deadbeats lob some votes out so I can get a better feel for that.

Ludi has flaked out on our QT again, but mostly his defense of Meran centers around the 'no one else was selling it' and he really agrees with me that the rolefishing thing wasn't a thing at all (though he expands it to - 'and wouldn't be done by scum' which I'm not so sure about, if he'd do it as town he doesn't think it's scummy anyway, and thus would do it as scum, yadda, yadda). If we have a Vig he's going to be overworked in this game.

[Hydra]

I feel like people are competing for the right to be lynched.
Vigs or fakeclaim-Vig-SKs; I trust you are taking a lot of notes.

I think I'm getting the DH wagon now, but it looks more ephemeral than the AGM wagon - also, sorry MoI, but the AGM wagon is the Sens wagon but with whipped cream, and a cherry on top, and I'm still twit enough to be feeling town vibes from Sens. He's fighting hard to make me hate him though, I'll agree, as I can't deny that he's contributing nothing - but he's hardly really unique in that regard.

I dunno, I'm pretty close to wanting about six or so players dead right now. I'm citing wagon ennui and 'I'm on the biggest one' to deny a shift at this stage, I'm frankly getting close to just wanting a lynch and I think all we're doing now is debating between a couple of viable lynches as to which one would be more informative and the real answer is 'whichever one is really scum' so - bleh. The worst I can say for the AGM wagon is he just came in shouting 'hai giuz!' with his pants on his head and got a little fresh flurry of votes there, which seems kind of odd to me as the meat of the case is way back towards thread start, but that only really makes sense if DH is scum - and he was one of the jumpers at that stage so to have multiple scum jumps just doesn't make sense.

I'll add in a desire to policy lynch Mastin, it's a pro-town call

[Hydra]

@Mastin - while you're waiting for a role PM how about you start playing the game like town and move forward from there.

[Hydra]

@Amrun - your setup is broken - there should be more than one town for games to be balanced.

[Hydra]

Also, MBL being very consistent and town. As expected.

Can you clarify this a little Meran. I'm not sure if you're taking a backhanded swip at MrBuddyLee or actually think he is town. Your wording is ambigious.

~~~

yep

you are lining up lynches.

Relational tells, yes. Lining up lynches, like you're doing; no.

Because SensFan doesn't care enough about who he's lynching and calling scum, we can lynch him next. There are no conditionals, like MoI insists of using. We'll lynch two extremely scummy people.

A lot of the problem we have towards you DH is that some of your stances appear to be in direct contradiction with eachother. Saying we lynch X and then Y based off some arbitary suspicion you have towards SensFan (you suspect him for saying Parama rockets up the scum-meter, but never explained this suspicion fully) instead saying we should lynch extremely 'scummy people'. Which, is actually anti-town if you don't think SensFan is scum.

Also, you problem with MoI seems to be that he is lining up lynches (among other things), but I fail to see how saying Alamaster and SensFan need to go 1-2 is NOT lining up lynches?

It's funny how he didn't even think about what motivation Parama would have had to post like that.

What motivation did Parama have to make a post like that? I'm not into advanced cryptography and mindreading, perhaps you can spell it out for us.

~~~

I haven't seen anything from MBL other than asking questions. It comes across that he doesn't want to put forth content or interact with the players. Very similar to sensfan but much more active about it(thus way scummier)
Also, I said before that the one time I saw someone play like that, they were scum, so he gets meta points against him.

This seems patantly false and kind of forced. Did you read Lee's post on the last page before you made this post? If not, I reccomend reading it, because it blows your first accusation clear out of the water. No, I think he's put forth more than enough content to justify that being a non issue when you consider several people have far less and far worse to their name.

I'm also not clear how sensfan factors in to your suspicions, or the link between them, or how you now meta both of them to get a read on the other? Using other players meta's from completly different games is about a strong a case as a two legged table is a strong table.

~~~

no u

This is such an awesome response, It just makes me believe it and want to follow you. Oh wait... its not.

[Hydra]

Greetings,

Sorry for delay in posting, it's more my fault than Ludi's.

Here's his reads from the QT;

People that are acting scummy: parama, shanba
People that look town: PJ, (?) mastin2 (obv),

Its tough, two of our town reads bit the dust night one and Meran claimed a PR.

I'm currently mocking his 'obv.' Mastin town read, but I suppose I should read up on things before I drag that down too much. I've got 5 pages to read and I'm going to take a break in the middle, but should probably have a post up in the next few hours. (huzzah, super slow read!) I dunno - maybe it will all be super exciting and I'll read it quickly, y'never know.

[Hydra]

Guys, I will put a very simple question.

Consider I am not an idiot. Why would I want the neighbors to out their PRs day 1?

Please answer this, it is important.

Rolecop looking to waste a lot of effort or scum? ::shrug:: I dunno.

FoS: Meransiel

for how he has started his play for Day Two. Looks to me like a scumpartner had a good idea during the night to "explain" why you would ask such a question, and now you are a bit overeager to "explain" it yourself. (Although this reasoning largely presumes scum cannot daytalk).

This sets off some *crazy* alarms in my head considering Meran's defense of self yesterday. 'Hey, that wouldn't work unless scum have daytalk, herpy, derpy, good defensey.'

@Hydra

: You've directed the vig to at least three players. Can you please rank them in order of scumminess and give your reasoning?

Missed this somewhere along the line.
Um...I don't recall who I directed a Vig too, but it's pretty certain this was the head doing the directing. Generally I direct Vigs to players I consider to be 'not helpful' insomuch as I think they are a distraction to town, a wagon that will be hard to read, and a slot that we'll want to get a flip out of because people will always suspect it.

If you remind me who I called out I could probably put them in a vague list, but probably the honest answer would be that the list would be all equal unless I was voting one of the people I called for a Vig for, in which case they would be the scummiest.

Ugh - well, Sens was pretty obv. town in my opinion, but I think Iec is obv. Vig at this stage, and is at worst SK. Let's treat him as Vig and he makes sure he claims his kills toot sweet every morning.
Meran, unfortunately, earns town points too - though I really fail to see the value in asking for role reveal info as a Tracker - meh and bleh.

I'll agree with my hydra mates call on PJ if, for nothing else, saying what I would say.
Parama needs rope or replace out for failing at game.

Oh - Innocent Child.
...well, at least I can stop mocking Ludi for believing mastin ever looks obv. town...derp.

What a ridiculously ill-conceived "gambit." No SK in their right mind would fall for that, especially since in the same breath you suggested DemonHybrid was a SK, you claimed to not have any information whatsoever.

You've never played with mastin before, have you?

Petroleum climbs a bit on my scum o meter for that last post, but there isn't enough scum motivation behind it for it to be completely damning, so I'll review him.

Vote: Parama

Everything has gone boom for our solid reads - petrol can be town though, so can Meran, Iec, and...I *guess* mastin though I'm against it emotionally.

[Hydra]

1. If I am roleblocked, I will obviously know that.

Are you sure? I don't have mod meta, but roleblocked can come back as 'no result' and if the person goes nowhere it can be a 'no result' as well.

That would be bastardly.

Meh - I've had Mods here do it that way as well as having them announce I was roleblocked. I don't think it's intrinsically a bastard setup choice.

[Hydra]

Why don't you post what you've 'written' then?

[Hydra]

saporovirus--strong gut and decent cases. Don't understand her thing with petroleumjelly tho

What thing are you referring to, and what about it don't you understand? Can you detail this more closely instead of using the words gut and such?

Hydra (Thor655 + Magister Ludi)--I had a few issues with him early D1, but he defended himself well. Should we just assume Magister Ludi isn't doing anything?

Hi!

~~~

Toasty, mind explaining to me why your list contains exactly three names with asterisks next to them? (If you just pulled the DGB slip, I will lol. Very hard. Those names being Hrez, Pine/Earworm/Ythan, and MBL.)

I checked the prods list to make sure it wasn't that, and, well, it's not.

What is the DGB slip, and what are you talking about here?

~~

Saporo

I reread Saporo.

I do not like MBL's posts. But that is irrelevant at this point.

What about MrBuddyLees posts do you not like, and why did you declare those feelings irrelevant, and subsequently not worth following up on; ever?

I'm not seeing this Hzres thing, Iec.

unvote

vote: parama

Paramalynch is good. DH has been messing w/ my scum read on him lately. However I am kind of going to refresh my read of petroleumjelly now.

I am down for the Hrezs wagon. His posts of content have mainly been things others have already argued aaaand flakiness.

vote: Hrezs

Wasn't paying attention to him yesterday.

Is too early to kill a parama.

I don't understand your thought process here. Several problems.

a. Day one, you were very excited to get behind a DemonHybrid lynch, but then dropped that and said you were satisfied for now, and never followed up on those feelings. You haven't mentioned him again. Do you think he is still town?

b. You basically preffered DemonHybrid over parama all of day one, and yet coming into today you seem happy enough to lynch parama. Ok, fair enough, though I didn't see a reason for this switch. However, depsite calling this a good lynch, you've since dropped it despite parama not doing anything at all to make you change your mind besides stalling out. And I think you now have a town read (?) on him. I'm not sure why you changed, but it doesn't look like a clear and logical town mindset.

c. Then, one day one/two you thought Hrezs was probably town, defending him to Iecerint. Today, despite him ALSO not posting much since then, you developed a scum read on him and have since voted him. And since he has been replaced, your argument he is flaky is probably going to be rendered invalid. Are you still content to lynch his new replacement despite what the new guy says?

d. Finally, I'm not sure why you think its too 'early to kill a parama'. Are you saying he's scum, but want to wait until till tomorrow to lynch him, which is a terrible mindset. Or are you thinking he is town, but want to lynch him anyways, which is also a terrible mindset?

no I am posting it all at once so your minds all get simultaneously blown

it's already 6 pages in MS word

Why don't you post what you have then, or do you have nothing? You posted this on sunday, and its now wednesday. What have you been doing?

[Hydra]

heh, a few previews I missed. I am happy with lynching parama, and on a scum flip, going straight after saporo.

[Hydra]

Hrmph.

Unvote: Hrezs, Vote: Hydra. Where are you two at? Whatcha thinkin'?

Well, Ludi has been reading and yelling at me mostly.
I've been playing other games and being a useless blivot.

Let's look at what we have...oh wow, a lot of pages of PJ vs. Yos, and...oh, look, people are still slowly working up to lynch Parama but his scum buddies are getting skittish about it.
Yeah, I'm where I was last time I posted and feel fine with where I'm at.

Copy/pastaed Parama's post into MS Word. Had to make it a 16 point font to be 6 pages long. I kind of doubt his eyesight is so bad that he needs to do that. Calling it all a lie. Calling him scum. Last minute leap off by Iec looks super sketchy. Happy with lynch that is obviously going to happen and should have happened three days ago before I needed to be prodded. <3 Mastin for knowing when confirming a vote is awesome, but he's an innocent child so, bleh, thanks for no helpful reads

[Hydra]

Last minute leap off by Iec looks super sketchy.

Was pointed out to me by Ludi that 'lol, Vig claim' is here so...well, retract this tell as odds are it's not a valid tell after a Vig claim. Derf on me.

@Parama - I will agree that at 12 point font and with a direct quote so all the links are typed out your post just edges into 6 pages. You have weakened how sure I feel about this lynch, but I still want you lynched. Also, if you flip scum we have 'lol awesome town' on the other two neighbors, which would be sweet.

[Hydra]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Please do. We're tearing out our manly beards over here.

Mastin, be quiet and start scumhunting outside of reciting annoying song lyrics.

This seems to be an odd and incorrect thing to call out Mastin2 on, considering he has done a fair bit of speculating on who he thinks is scum and town. And whats the point of trying to browbeat confirmed town?

~~~
Yos, I know its rather minor, but why do you have Meransiel listed as tracker :

Meransiel Tracker

, but iecerint listed as nothing:

Iecerint:

14. Shanba*: No real problem with his play.

I know you're a big fan of hunting lurkers, why is it that you don't seem to have a problem with the minamilist style of posting Shanba is taking here, and why does this actually make him seem town to you? I'm not feeling the warm cozy glow.

actually no
Requesting Replacement

get someone else in here who actually cares about this game

what is this I don't even...

Slow game is slow. Pretty mad that Parama is replacing.
I'm really concerned with sappo's play since arriving here, and as such I find yosarian's read on her (good D2, bad D1) really odd.

Well, it would help if you, you know, actually tried to propel this discussion forward. What are you current reads, who are your top two choices for scum. Why are you mad that parama is replacing out? (what do you mean by odd, can you clarify?) Also, you browbeat saporo a little, but your vote is on CrashTextDummie?

(CTD obviously likes manly beards!)

~~~~~~~

Is saporo being replaced in this game too? I have a bunch of pertinent questions that still need answering from her, and She replaced out of another game in large normal.

[Hydra]

Well, it would help if you, you know, actually tried to propel this discussion forward. What are you current reads, who are your top two choices for scum. Why are you mad that parama is replacing out? (what do you mean by odd, can you clarify?) Also, you browbeat saporo a little, but your vote is on CrashTextDummie?

Toast, can you answer this.

~~~

Look at my wagon. It's probably scum-driven.

Who is the scum? You've read the whole game and caught up I take it?

[Hydra]

@Hydra: I already gave my reads, including my top two scum. Read. It obviously did nothing to propel the discussion, other than get sappo to make a shitty vote (who Amrun is now searching to find a replacement)
I'm mad at Parama for replacement cuz he was all like YAYYY WE R BEST NEIGHBORS EVERRRR then replaced

The point is, that instead of trying some other way to do something, you just complained that you were mad and angry and pissed.

@Hydra again: I'm voting CTD because the slot he replaced into was scummy, and his posts haven't really changed that yet...Yeah, they aren't terrible but they don't scream town either

So you're voting someone that is most probably 'null' to you? Over those other people in the 'burnt toast' category, which include DemonHybrid and Shanba?

I'm thinking the reverse. I think Shanba is scummy and because Yos sees him as town...yeah.

I'm not sure we follow this line of logic here. In the abstract, What is wrong with someone getting a townread on someone you think is scum? This has to happen a lot in games you play.

I think saporovirus/KJ is the most likely scum. Sapo would at least give an explanation if she were town. I think she would be more likely to flake like this strategically.

(meh, she flaked out of another large normal I am in with her, so I don't think that argument is valid.)

Still I would have like all my questions posed towards her here answered. I found her play and logic especially anti-town.

[Hydra]

Dear gawd - why did we extend deadline?
Why am I being prodded for this gakky three pages of mindless mumbling with a general consensus that we should hammer Parama/Bowser?

COuld someone grow a set, stop pretending to be pro town, and just hammer the jerk already? We were going to do this something like a week or two ago and we've spent two weeks generating like five pages of nothing while everyone is obviouslly going to lynch Prama. It's not like there's even a wagon push remotely in the ballpark of competing - town is shriveling up into a useless ball due to lack of flips - I'm openly stating I will happily hammer any other player put up to seven votes at this stage, seriously. Hear that scum? Start a speed alternate wagon and watch me smash it through for you just for yucks.

@Everyone - who is against this Parama lynch? Seriously? If you're not against it, why aren't you voting him yet? I swear, half the people not on this wagon have expressed approval of it while still poking around and doing other things - what is that?
It's days like these that make me want to be a Dayvig.

[Hydra]

You know what, tomorrow morning (and by morning I mean, probably like 11 after I've had shower, danish, and lounged around a bit in bed either before or after that) if there's no vote movement I'm hopping on Yos (and I think he's town) just to see if it does ANYTHING.

[Hydra]

Why not just vote him if he's one of your top three and if he does something brilliant in his next post you can unvote him, yeah?
That Shanba wagon is going nowhere fast.

[Hydra]

Wooooooosh

Vote: Killerjester

Expect some brilliance later. (or the same old thoughts, they still apply) Thor is busy running some of the norse parthenon, but we'll band together and get some awesomeness for you all to gaze upon.

[Hydra]

I'm derping on my partner, so I'm doing a bit of an info dump here as opposed to in our QT (promise to try to dig into QT later, Ludi, reallly, swears for real, and not like the last swear that got us prodded, really reals this time )

Okay;

Iec suxx0rs due to lack of kill attempt since it tells us jack all if Mafia are scared by his list of top suspects. His lack of death vaguely points towards that they aren't scared at all but if there was a RBer yadda, yadda, hey. I'm going to claim I'll go back and look at Meran's last few top suspects to figure out why he was a better kill than a Vig, but I'll probably just get Ludi to do it and then ruminate over his findings. We'll see.

(Oh, and if the pattern continues, Hydra [considered town by most people, identical to PJ] will be poisoned tonight

This is interesting to me, because it says to me 'newbie SK' I agree with the pattern you're noticing and am curious if you agree that suggests newb SK. I'm not going to go into deep analysis of optimal SK kills, but this tends to suggest the SK isn't thought of as very townish and/or is newbie - yeah? Paired with lack of Iec kill...well...SK probably wants Vig alive and may be NK immune so that gets super WIFOM, but I think the belief he's in the more suspect pool or mushy middle pool is very high.

Meran leaned town on Yos.
Meran was killed.
I think Yos is probably mislynch waiting to happen if we think he's scum (and I know both I and Ludi have had pretty consistent town reads on him) - discuss.
I *might* think he's SK off of PJ kill, but that tosses wrench in my thoughts about his kills thus far.
SK is either NK immune or not on Iec's list

Who is on that list?

DemonHybrid
saporovirus

Leaning not SK on DH methinks. He would have had to gamble for anyone believing he was 'protected' or would have had to argue scum RBed Iec. *Maybe* expected Iec dead, but, c'mon, that was risky for him to do and if he was wrong about RB he was basically claiming SK to scum team - balls that would be, casaba melon sized ones.

I'm happy enough with the KJ vote Ludi put us on.
I'm against Yos and DH wagons actually. (Mastin, you're probably half right with some of your thoughts, but ease back on the assured right business, yeah? Give me your thoughts on my own SK ramblings and try to sell me on DH SK, but I'm thinking you're wrong.)
That's me for now.

[Hydra]

We still think the jesterman is the way to go. We prefer this lynch over Shanba slightly, the fact that Shanba didn't re-vote killer to put him closer to lynch over himself with wagons tied definently makes us want to stay on jester.

Also,

But I'll humor you. Who do you think the serial killer is if I flip group scum/town?

Is showing an anti-town mindset. For one thing, its a useless hypothetical question (if you flip scum, I'm not going to be slamming my head into a wall that you weren't the serial killer), and if you are town, you should be stating you are town and the XXX is serial killer in your estimation, rather than what you did. Post like this, (though not all of your posts are) definently seem to come from someone anti-town aligned.

[Hydra]

And can you explain a bit better what Shanba abstaining from my wagon implicates? I didn't quite put two and two together myself.

Before Shanba voted, both your wagons were tied with three votes, with you voting him and him not voting you. Now, many times I have seen scum place a vote on the other leading wagon opposing theirs to push it forward and closer to lynch, but instead, he went off and voted someone else with no votes on them at all. Its enough of a reason to make me prefer staying on your wagon which I believe the strongest in as opposed to anything to the contrary.

If that makes sense.

[Hydra]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

Game needs more activity here.

[Hydra]

He went after an inactive slot with reasoning that could only be described as sparse at best, as I stated before, that could easily be simply trying to deflect suspicion onto a softer target by going "look guys, lurkers!".

WOOOOSH.

My point was that the bigger scum move would have been to vote Killer, which he definitely didn't do.

Seriously. You don't get to post 4 times in 4 days and then whine there's not enough thread activity. Especially when you still haven't delivered the promised case, and repeatedly use words like "definitely" without knowing how to spell them. (Yes, it's petty, but it really, really annoys me. A typo is fine, spelling it wrong twice in one post is not.)

Hint: there needs to be more thread actvity. Definently.

Also, I know I personally posted my thoughts on saporo back in the middle of day two, just before she replaced out. I also backed it up a few times. Papa Smurg probably has some too, I'm too lazy too look through my own iso for points I know that are there.

[Hydra]

Papa Smurf** Please forgive me oh great one!

[Hydra]

Also also, Hydra, read. It's a null tell if you're being wagoned and vote for the next wagon, because it's pro-town to keep yourself alive as Town. You're the only person (apart from mod-confirmed townies) you KNOW is town. Letting yourself be lynched over someone who isn't CT is always a bad play as Town.

Pursuing your scum reads as long as possible without digging into a me/him contest is pro town though, yeah? <--rhetorical

Seriously. You don't get to post 4 times in 4 days and then whine there's not enough thread activity.

You do if that posting rate still has you in the 50% most active players in the game.

Especially when you still haven't delivered the promised case, and repeatedly use words like "definitely" without knowing how to spell them. (Yes, it's petty, but it really, really annoys me. A typo is fine, spelling it wrong twice in one post is not.)

We're not allowed to complain about the slowness of the game because you didn't notice a case we already made and we have spelling typos.
Seriously?
Why the attack on our character rather than anything else - what was the purpose behind this? <---not rhetorical.

This was the only mention of Para in the post where they vote him:

Parama needs rope or replace out for failing at game.

Well;
1. In the post right before it I mention my hydra mate finds him scummy.
2. By the wording of the vote I am clearly endorsing the current Parama wagon as it existed without retyping it for no gain but bruised fingers.
3. That was so blatantly Thor posting that you should be well aware it was awesome you got a one sentence clarification to the case.

Whassup?

The whole Vig claim discussion is fairly silly to my mind. He's confirmed town who may or may not have a kill ability. I'm comfortable with that situation and I personally think any protective roles should be comfortable with that information too. Regardless of how much you believe it, Xanatos, you're clearly not selling anyone - therefore the conversation should be dropped before it clogs us up any more than it already has.

@Mastin - by the way, congratulations on better town play Though it's just because you were robbed of the ability to fakeclaim, yeah?

Would much rather lynch Killerjester than Shanba. Other head sees Shanba but I'm not so sold on it. The strongest win it has is that it basically has 3 confirmed not mafia on it, which is kewl, but at the same time I feel the case isn't really existent in my own head, it just sort of seems to be there because he lurks and defended Parama. Killerjester feels more win to me, I think that's the much better lynch.

David Xanatos, Iecerint, MrBuddyLee, Yosarian2

Also, though I think Yos voted and got on CTD since the vote count I'm quoting, the above players are quite likely failing at life.

[Hydra]

WOOOOSH.

I wish we had not dorfed around and actually lynched Killer without forcing Crash to claim doctor.

I think some of these reaction are telling, i'm not sure why Yosarian apparently believes KJ over CTD on a doctor claim, and, he gets mad about someone voting the killer as the 'doctor', but has no problems leaving his vote on CTD, who is the doctor.

[Hydra]

edit: apparently CTD had

expressely

claimed doctor then, though It seemed obvious.

[Hydra]

edit: (wow, mornings are killing me) CTD had not* expressely

[Hydra]

I also have a guilty read on MBL from a previous night. (N1 to be exact. N2 Pine didn't submit an action.. I'll never understand inactive PRs..)

There is no way this this hydra believe this is true.

For one thing, busting this read out at potentially lynch or lose, assuming four scum, and I did notice how you try and subtly (or not so, heh) paint this as

not

lynch or lose

I'd be inclined to think 3+SK.

is very suspect in and of itself.

If you had such an awesome report, your slot

would

have claimed it on day two, or day three, or you persnoally as soon as you got into the game, and not sat on it.

There was no guarentee of a anti-town lynch at all yesterday, in fact of the two dueling wagons one flipped town and had the probabilty of being mislynched while you sat on an

apparent guilty result.

That is not something town does.

I'm very confident this was a scum gambit to win the game.

Vote: David X

[Hydra]

If I were Scum, why would I do this? What motive would I have to fake-claim right now, openly, when it's most likely not Mylo (We are 8, if there were 4 scum originally, there are now 3, barring 2 shots in the night, there would be 6, and I'd be lynched tomorrow instantly. If there were 3 scum originally, there are now 2, which would mean it would become either 2/7 in the night, becoming 2/6 after the shot, or 2/5 if there are two shots, then immediately 1/5 or 1/4 because I'd be insta-lynched.)

WOOSH

To win the game.

For one, if it is mislynch and lose, town has the possibilty, to you know, LOSE THE GAME.

If there were four scum orginially there are now three, making this 5:3 and mylo.

You want to accuse me of lying, claim your role, and I'll reveal full details of my own.

What the F? You already revealed "full details of your cop report", what else is there to reveal thats so sudden and cool you didn't claim with your 'guilty'

[Hydra]

I figured this out. Game over.

Unvote
Vote: Yosarian2

First, There are probably two scum left here alive in the game. I think every power role that was outed before today is town, which is DemonHybrid and Toasty as neighbors, Iecerint as the vigilante, and CTD as the doctor.

That leaves three people whose alignment I do not know coming into today, those being DavidX, MrBuddyLee, and Yosarian2.

Intially, it made sense to me to vote David based on his very weird claim/gambit. But at this point in the game it is almost 100% unlikely that David and MrBuddyLee are the same alignment. For one, no two man scum group would plan a cross bus on eachother out of the gate for no apparent reason, and if they were both town, MrBuddyLee would be able to explain the 'has a gun' result that David has claimed on him.

So with one scum and one town among the three unconfirmed, that leaves the only remaining possible scum member as Yosarian2. He's either scum with BuddyLee and bussing, or scum with DavidX and hoping for a mislynch, but it doesn't matter to me. If we lynch him today we are almost guaranteed to hit scum.

Then, going into the night, Iecerint will vig MrBuddyLee and DavidX can investigate someone else, preferably one of the neighbors. MrBuddyLee will die, and if he doesn't, that means DavidX was telling the truth about a roleblocker and we lynch BuddyLee for the win.

If BuddyLee dies and flips town, that means the DavidX was lying, and we lynch him for the win. In all these scenarios, Yosarian is scum, and the other scum will fall soon after.

[Hydra]

And are you comfortable going down after two scum if we follow your plan and the game still continues?

Well I don't think the game could possibly still but going, but, No, because I know my alignment, and lynching myself if the game is still going isn't going to make the scum lose. I don't think that is going to happen though

What if Iece gets blocked and killed? (assuming Yosarian isn't a roleblocker)

For one, this is assuming there is a roleblocker and David is telling the truth, which I'm not sure about. But you're forgetting we also have a doctor in the game as well. CTD protects Iecerint tonight, and that means there is no way Iece can both be potentially blocked and killed, he is either going to get a shot off on Mrbuddy and die (we'll see the alignment then), or be potentially blocked and CTD dies.

~~~
This also confirms my suspicion of you Yosarian. You say and imply you're unsure which of David and MrBuddy is the scum here,

You're right, Xantos's behavior yesterday was really odd for a gunsmith with a "gun" result, as I questioned him on extensively. I'm having trouble seeing this as a scum gambit at all, though; it doesn't really make any sense as one.

So we lynch MBL, and in the fairly unlikely event he flips town, we vig Xantos.

I figured the same thing out, but then I reasoned that the only logical remaining scum choice was you. If you were town as well, I'm sure you would have reasoned this out and placed a vote on me. If you were town, I would have to be the only logical 100% chance of being scum here, yet you not only didn't initially vote me, you continue to not vote me after acknowledging this.

~~~

Lynching a random townie doesn't do anything to solve the "Xantos or MBL" issue, and town'll still be in the same situation tomorrow.

Actually it does, and you're not a random townie, you're the only logical choice left I'm very certain of being scum. The way our power-roles are configured, the other scum out of buddy and David is going to be exposed tonight.

[Hydra]

WOOOOOOSH. Catching up.

PEdit: Hydra, you or Yos can be lynched tomorrow though.

From my point of view, Yosarian should be lynched today, and I already setup a plan to catch the final remaining scum. It makes 100% sense from where i'm sitting, as I know he has to be scum.

One of you knows who the other Scum is,

True.

We don't know which one.. so better to eliminate the Guilty read first, and I scan you or Yos tonight.

The problem is I don't even know if you're an actual gunsmith or not, town or not, so i'm no more inclined to follow your plan than to actually follow my own thought on who is scum here or not.

Post 1024 and 1026 from Mastin. As I said above, a CT is only a threat as far as their reads are correct.

A CT is a threat because they are confirmed town, their reads and motive are not in question.

Yes, yes, I know that you're also scum, but even if we lynch you and you flip scum, it doesn't actually solve the problem, we're still in the same situation tomorrow.

No, you're scum for several reasons. The first of which is the fact you didn't run through the same thought process I did, only coming around to what I was thinking after realizing that is how town Yos would of thought in the same situation. You didn't think that because you were scum.

And we're not in the same situation tomorrow, because scum is down a member (you, who could possibly be the roleblocker), which would then confirm David X and leave town with a vig doc and gunsmith to ferret out the last scum (which would be obviously MrBuddyLee in that situation).

Ideally, we want to deal with the Xantos/MBL problem now, while we still have a living vig.

See here's another problem. You aren't seeing it as the Xantos MBL problem, as you've been on MRBuddy all day. You've just placed down a vote, so to you its not a problem at all. And we have a doctor in the town, so i'm not sure why you're so concerned with the vig dying overnight, as he is guaranteed a shot at the very least.

It sounds to me, though, that you just want to mislynch me today so then tomorrow you and your buddy MBL can mislynch Xantos and win.

Or, it sounds like town who has nailed a scum pushing for their lynch on someone he thinks is 100% confirmed scum. You yourself even stated you would be willing to lynch me, which is just the 'crime' you are accusing me off:

I mean, we could lynch you today, if that's what you want.

~~~~~

Okay, stop right there, get down on the ground and freeze.

Unvote, Vote: David Xanatos

I'm asking you to switch your vote back onto Yosarian. I know you don't have the knowledge I'm town to work with, but nothing he's done today makes sense from a town point of view, and I know for a fact here is scum. This lynch is 100% preferable to choosing between those two.


Next page...

[Hydra]

Think it through though. Why would I come in and claim a guilty in a game with so many PRs? Why would I claim a Flavour Cop role? Why would I claim to have been RBed when there was a possibility of a Watcher, or worse, someone else comes out as having been RBed?

Well, if you were scum with the roleblocker, you had no fear of anyone else being roleblocked.

Another odd thing is that if Xantos is lying, that means that town had no information roles at all this game (other then an innocent child) which would be weird.

I see you are forgetting about the tracker. Care to ammend this statement?

Also, if he was going to fake a guilty, why not just say that he got the guilty last night?

Because that is extremely suspect? I am assuming David is not an idiot here, he looks pretty smart. If he is scum, he would drop a few breadcrumbs or so yesterday, and then come out claiming today with a guilty from some previous night. Its not uncommon at all. Also, If he is scum, claiming a guilty on a night before some potential lylo setup. would make him more likely to get lynched then claiming one earlier.

Think about it. Assume for a minute that there's a 2 man scumteam. How can they win at this point? If we lynch ether Xantos or MBL and then vig the other if that one flips scum, then we go into tommorow with 1 scum vs. 4 town or 1 scum vs. 5 town with multiple confirmed innocents, which is probably not winnable for the scum.

That probably what you're wondering at this point as well. From my perspective, you're either bussing Mrbuddylee to try and setup a mislynch on me and who knows who else down the track (with the possibilty you are a roleblocker to stop shenenigans as well), or you got DavidX to crumb and claim a guilty (because I know you're are sneaky enough to do this Mr Cunning Manipulator) to get someone who was very town looking coming into today lynched, and then you plan on blocking and killing in some order to go into tomorrow's lylo with the doc dead buddy dead DavidX gets lynched and you then go into the final day trying to pin another mislynch on me. You knew you were probably going to get lynched today, so you knew you had to act, and desicively. It makes a ton of sense coming from you.

[Hydra]

I honestly can't see how anyone else is not lynching Yosarian today.

If you have any sort of a town read on me, you should join me on this wagon. He is 100% confirmed scum from my point of view, his play has been consistent with the scum win condition, and his logic makes no sense when you break it down. He's dived and dodged his way through the game but barely beneath the surface.

This is the best lynch today. The power-roles are going to sort out who is the remaining scum member easily over the night. This guarantees the victory for town.

[Hydra]

Hold up on that votecount Amrun I think you missed a vote somewhere and Yosarian only has one vote.

[Hydra]

There are essentially two one v one's going on here.

There is no investigative result on Yosarian, but I know almost for a fact that he has to be scum (barring DavidX and Buddy both being scum, or some other weird combination that really is impossible to exist)

My scum read on Yosarian comes from a variety of factors, which I described, and that fact that I presented my town reasons for suspecting him and that he switched once he realized the validity of them and accepted them as well and tried to use them to get back at me (for me being scum) confirms to me the fact that he is actually scum realizing he should have gone through that thought process himself.

Plus, we have no idea if thats a real guilty or not, and I see no reason to plunge into there when I have Yosarian pegged. If Yosarian is the roleblocker (which I suspect he is if there is only a three man team), mislynching either of those two players allows him to gain weasel his way into a great situation going into the final days.

[Hydra]

Hold up here.

I was thinking coming into today that there was a three man scum team remaining, and that those three members were probably Buddy, Yosarian and David, the only people unclaimed.

I need to read back and see who was the first person to suggest a two man scum team.

~~~~

Yosarian screams scum because he is scum. All his actions make sense from a scum point of view, and not a town point of view.

[Hydra]

I would vote, but my guess would be a 4-man scum team, which makes us 5:3

Three man team remaing as well.

It's basically "find the odd man out" of the four, then.

Agrees.

There are either 2 or 3 Scum left, I believe. Out of 18, I'd say there'd be 4.. roughly 20%, but the fact there was an SK tips the balance a little, and I'd be inclined to think 3+SK.

Only two men remaining.

DX, Yosarian, Hydra if we are 3:5.

Still with three.

If there were four scum orginially there are now three, making this 5:3 and mylo.

Three man.

Even if there were 4 scum, this isn't LyLo, or even MyLo, unless there are 2 shots in the night. Do the fecking math.

What happened here and how did I miss this? If there are 4 scum, that makes this 5:3. You claimed you were ROLEBLOCKED, so that would mean that an incorrect lynch (4:3) plus roleblocking Iece and killing CTD (3:3) is game over scum wins.

THIS IS HIGHLY PROBABLY LYLO, AND I WOULD APPRECIATE NO HAMMERS AT ALL RIGHT NOW.

[Hydra]

Continuing with rereading last few pages. Hold

Also, Did you forget Yosarian on that wagon as well?

Turning back on what I said earlier, it may be slightly more possible Buddy and David are both scum given this. I'm not ruling out anything if it amounts to not losing the game, DH.

[Hydra]

No, I was arguing that possibly three scum were on the buddywagon and that a hammer could end the game.

Yeah, lynching Buddy is awesome if he is scum. If not we just lost. The fact remains that I came into today thinking three scum and somewhere along the line we switched over to 'two scum mode.'

[Hydra]

Fuck I think town just lost.

[Hydra]

If you won just tell me DH.

[Hydra]

I'm not scum at all, otherwise I would have quicklynced you several pages ago for the victory.

This is infuriating.

~~~

Iecerint, you definintly need to shoot one of DX or Yos2 tonight and pray.

blargh

[Hydra]

Vote: Yosarian2

This man is scum. Everything written yesterday applies with a few small changes. I'll have some more time later today to show you exactly why he is scum.

[Hydra]

Also, I read all of today quickly, the fact that Yosarian first thoughts were going straight to claiming that he is 'not bulletproof' and then claiming the player who did get shot it mafia godfather is insane, and then claims 'vanilla townie' as if that proves he isn't mafia, speaks of scum panic and mentality.

[Hydra]

I agree with you and thats why i'm saying Yosarians theory is insane and from a panicked mind.

[Hydra]

will be here later today.

[Hydra]

I didn't mean all 3, just a combination of 2 from those 3.

I'm just saying, there's little chance of Hydra being anything but scum here in any case. I really see no unwarranted suspicions coming from anyone at this point.

Six alive.
Four to lynch.
This makes no sense - you have to get someone else to vote me and *then* you can start making bold statements about who is scum on my wagon and whether or not I'm scum for lacking a quickhammer.

Also, in a universe of - we're chain lynching Yos and Hydra smart scum would bus their buddy if they happened to blunder into the coin flip target spot, which is what this is.
Also, please not Yos needless buddying Iec. 'Oh, yes, confirmed town, you made the right decision ::brohugs::"
Gosh, good call, because, y'know, there was totally about to be a wagon of shame steamrolled onto him because of that decision.

@Iec - DX mislynched? For being what...second scum in the neighborhood?

[Hydra]

Your statement to Iec didn't make any sense.

Iec puzzeled it out all on his own, confusion about DX/DH - I'll withdraw if it helps you clear it up.
Could you please explain the comment from you I called out - it didn't make sense either.

Heh, classic. When all else fails, try to make the townies paranoid that someone's buddying up to them, huh? Always worth a try when you're a cornered scum, but it's not going to work here.

Heh, classic. When all else fails, try to act like spotting a scummy action is actually inherently scummy, huh? Always worth a try when you're a cornered scum, but it's not going to work here.

Good defense of the act, you don't address whether it was or was not scummy, you just immediately turn it around on me and try to dismiss it as a thing even worth discussing.
It was a weird conversation to go into, was a non-sequitor from nowhere, doing nothing but to make him feel good and to have you be the source of that good - aka buddying.

[Hydra]

By the same logic we shouldn't be scum because of the Parama wagon, and we should lynch Yos first.
Town has a memory like a goldfish.

[Hydra]

The problem here is that Yosarian is scum, and we've shown that several times, and why his actions on multiple occasions make more sense coming from scum than town. I'm collating a short post with the main reason he is scum.

All Yosarian has done is vote us today for correctly calling him out as scum yesterday, he's basically provided no reasons to back up his vote, and still hasn't, and is hoping to just sit and ride this mislynch through. To us, it looks like it has no idea how he could back up his vote.

I still want to lynch Hydra, because Yos could've lynched DX yesterday around the doctor if he'd wanted to.

meh I don't think this is exactly true.

a. David X would still have been one vote short with Yos2 at the height of the wagon, so there is no guarantee of a lynch here at all.
b. Had he joined the wagon and pulled it off by himself, when DX flipped scum MrBuddyLee was dying the next day and so would Yos have shortly followed if he had been so prominent. It looks like he reasoned bussing at that terminus provided him the better long time plan he's still alive today, trying to push our mislynch. He was way to sure of MBL's flip to be town.

[Hydra]

Quick bit here while typing out rest,

We all know that you're scum with MBL. It's completely obvious from both of your play yesterday. You tried to lynch me instead of him, even though he had a cop guilty on him, because you wanted to keep your scum roleblocker alive. You can try to distract from that fact with whatever BS you want to, but yesterday, you thought there was a cop and a vig alive, and you were willing to do anything to keep your roleblocker alive even if just for another night, because you thought you would need him.

This is a straight scum post (in my esteemed, or not as the case may be, opinion)

First things is, you are trying desperately to project your opinion onto everyone else as their opinion, by stating 'we all know you're scum', when this obviously isn't the case on both fronts, i'm not lynched and i'm not scum. Scum would rather do this than town, instead of saying you're scum because of reasons X,Y,Z from day 1-4 where everyone can see your logic, you just try repeating the same thing over and over which is 'Hydra is scum'.

Yesterday, I entered the day assuming three scum for a four man mafia team, which would have made you, MBL, and DX all scum. This was thrown off immediately by the fact DX accused MBL of being scum (with a cop report). The fact that someone had come out with a cop report in what was, in my opinion, lynch or lose, was exceedingly suspect to me.

In fact, you played in a game called Aggressive Mind Game mafia where scum fakeclaimed a cop guilty on

YOU,

so I don't think it is outside the realm of possibilities to consider this result here was faked. Yet, you didn't think this was at all possible this game, instead basically sticking on MBL all day. The difference is you knew MBL was scum here.

This also factored into my consideration of you. In that game you were town. In this game, I think you are scum.

So given the fact two people had been taken out of the equation with a 50/50 chance of scum among them, I immediately latched onto the person who from my perspective I knew had the highest chance of being scum, which was Yosarian2. You're using hindsight bias extraordinarily well there to try and paint me as scum. Yes, knowing then what I know now about alignments, I would have voted MBL. But I didn't. I couldn't figure it out, but I could figure out one thing. Knowing I was town, you were the clear logical choice for me to vote, because I was most certain of you being scum.

~~~~
And as for your last point, you seemed to have rendered it moot by your own words here today. You say that I would be afraid of the gunsmith and vigilante, yet then accuse and bring up the possibility that I could be a godfather, with kill or investigation immunity, which would invalidate your own point here about being afraid of those two roles.

~~~

I think you're contradicting yourself at several turns, using significant logical fallacies, and have played towards a scum win condition this entire game, which Is why I feel very confident in my vote on you.

[Hydra]

The fact that you apparently didn't read my posts yesterday is interesting, since you were voting for me for the entire day. If you weren't even trying to get a read on my alignment, then you must have had some other motive for voting for me; the most obvious one is that you were trying to protect my scumbuddy.

I read your posts yesterday. I also wasn't voting for you the entire day. Based on my MBL town read and the fact I though DX was gambiting scum, I initially voted him before moving to him realizing you were the most logical and clear choice for being scum. With potentially the game on the line yesterday, I wanted to make no bad choices when choosing who to lynch. I already had a plan in place using night actions to get sort out which of MBL and DX was scum or town.

I've had the entire game to get a read on your alignment, and your actions over the course of daysspoke louder than some of the words you said. Not even considering I was the best option for lynch yesterday is definite scum mindset. And you can hardly say I haven't gotten a read on your alignment when you haven't attempted really to get a read on mine, instead basically 'decreeing' me scum.

The "aggressive mind games" example is a fairly terrible one, as I'm sure you know. That was a scum who was going to get lynched anyway trying to take a town down with him. As I carefully established yesterday, Xantos had no such motivation at all.

Why is it terrible? Each situation had a cop claim, and in each situation it was unclear who was lying and who was telling the truth. There is a clear difference in you reaction though, in AGM you were town and acted one way, here you're probably scum acting in a very different way.

Hindsight bias? Pah. I figured out you were MBL's buddy yesterday.

No, you're using hindsight bias. I clearly explained how my motivations yesterday made more sense from town than scum, {which as you wrote somewhere (i'll go find it) is the primary way you should use to try and determine alignments}. Saying I am scum because of some improbable scenario now that makes me look bad then is hindsight bias. I attempted to determine who was scum yesterday clearlly, and I latched on to you, which is also coincidentally when you decided I 'must be scum' as well.

You "couldn't figure it out"? Bull. You never even TRIED to figure it out,

BULL. I thought it was actually DX gambiting, which I (wrongly) stated many times. This is untrue Yos.

If you had tried to figure it out, if you had even commented on which one of the two was more likely scum, that'd be one thing, but you carefully avoided ever doing anything like that

Lies. Several times I did

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 9#p3319329
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 4#p3319334
And here as well https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 6#p3332896

Also, you say this

So you took the desperate scum move of trying to lynch a third party.

Your actions make perfect sense from a scum. They don't actually make sense if you were town, though.

When you're not third party at all, you were the player who made most sense as scum, (and evidently you thought the same thing you are accusing me of doing, look)

Yes, yes, I know that you're also scum, but even if we lynch you and you flip scum, it doesn't actually solve the problem, we're still in the same situation tomorrow. Ideally, we want to deal with the Xantos/MBL problem now, while we still have a living vig.

I mean, we could lynch you today, if that's what you want. I'd rather lynch the guy we have a cop guilty on, but hey. Either scum works.

When you seem VERY certain I am scum (in fact, if you were town, you would know almost implicitly I was scum), yet still refused to vote me. I already laid out a plan to catch the remaining scum through the use of the vig and the gunsmith as well.

~~~
I think it is pretty clear you're scum. Combined with all sorts of logical fallacies, you've taking to lying here and there in an attempt to discredit me. As they say in the classics, 'you're scum, and you're caught scum'.

[Hydra]

This head appreciates huge walls from other head, but only has this as a rejoinder to Yos' walls of huge town looking town fakery.

you must have had some other motive for voting for me; the most obvious one is that you were trying to protect

my

scumbuddy.

Freud says hi!

[Hydra]

@Yos - just keep dismissing, it's what you do best.

@Iec and DH - seriously? Not even a peep on the Freudian slip there - that thing is pure gold as far as catching scum.

[Hydra]

Yeah, yeah. You guys talk a good game, but I think you know you've lost.

um, no. I have shown multiple times where you have backtracked on yourself, straight up lied to get a point across, shown that your case on us amounts to 'welp hydra is scum because hydra is scum' which is nonsense, and disproved any logical point you've brought against us so well you've resorted to simply calling our points 'bs' and leaving it at that.

I think the common consensus is that Hydra is the lynch for today.

the consensus of yosarian? Read his posts and our again, and you will change your mind. Whatever made you vote him at the beginning of the day was a good impulse, and I highly recommend experiencing it again in order to vote him. I'm not even sure exactly why you're voting us over him when I think we have shown sufficiently that he is scum based on his actions this entire game.

[Hydra]

Heh. You keep going on and on, but I guess you're never going to answer my question, right hydra? I'm not surprised.

Erm, which question did I not answer?

This nonsense one?:

If the moons align and you do somehow manage to get me lynched, then when I flip town, who would you want to lynch tommorow?

I'm pretty sure lynching you ends the game, because you're going to flip scum. I see no real purpose to this question, Yosarian. I suppose there is a small possibility it isn't you, and I'm not certain about anyone until their alignment is actually revealed. But questions like this make me doubt that you are actually going to flip town.

Seriously, are the last few posts by you all the reasons you have against me and want me to answer?

I have a question for you

Hey Yosarian, is Mars aligns with Venus on the fourteenth of the month of the year of the rabbit and I get lynched, when I flip town, who are you going to want to lynch tomorrow?

[Hydra]

The purpose is to see if you're willing to either commit right now to saying "everyone but Yos is confirmed town, if he flips, lynch me tommorow",

This is insane. If you do flip town, I'm not going to lynch the only player in the game I know for a fact is town, myself, just because I was wrong about your alignment. I'll definitely read over everyone in the game, but I'm not going to lynch myself because I was wrong about you. (have you ever said or done this in a game before, which is what you're suggesting pro-town behavior is? If so, can you link them)

see if you're willing to actually think and try to figure out who you think is most likely to be scum if I'm town. The fact that you're not willing to do either today is pretty clear proof of you being scum.

Well, I think you're more likely scum than town based on your actions. What it looks to me like you're doing is a useless thought experiment. For one thing, making me come up with a conjecture of who I think is mostly likely scum if you are town (or your scumbuddy) is pretty pointless when i think you are the most likely player here) For another, it wastes a lot of time for no real purpose, I'm not going to lynch my second or third scum candidate in any game, let alone this one when I believe the choice is very clear. It seems like a scum suggestion to waste a lot of time.

You are clearly linked to dead scum. It's that simple. No one needs any more reason then that, and no amount of wall-posting on your part changes the fact. So, no, I'm not going to waste time trading pointless walls with you at this point. It's not like I'm going to convince you to vote yourself.

Not at all (in a negative way which is what your are implying). I made that comment because I wanted to prove to the other players in the game that you really don't have any reasons for your vote on us, instead hoping a little winking and nudging and buddying up will force this lynch through.

because you (lol) flip town,

Why is this so hard to believe for you?

There, you see? Not a hard question to answer. So why are you so reluctant to do so?

Well, it looks like you're trying to chain up lynches predicated on a condition which you acknowledge is quite possible (us flipping town). Why am I so reluctant to do so I already explained, but again, its because I believe you are scum, see no reason to jump through your scum inspired hoops, and

only

when the flip comes and if you do flip town will I reread this thread.

[Hydra]

Yosarian, one point I asked you;

I'll definitely read over everyone in the game, but I'm not going to lynch myself because I was wrong about you. (have you ever said or done this in a game before, which is what you're suggesting pro-town behavior is? If so, can you link them)

~~~~

Yeah, we're not going to get anything out of Hydra today. I guess he's going to die before doing anything that might connect him to his hypothetical buddy, like analyze the alignments of other people in the game. Oh, well, it was worth a try.

Well, I don't plan on being lynched here. Do you usually try and scumhunt by talking in many hypothetical situations?

[Hydra]

Toasty

, Neither of us claimed bulletproof, I think you're thinking of when Yosarian brought up a bulletproof godfather (for some unknown reason)

[Hydra]

huh, why? What is making you think I am scum here?

[Hydra]

Yosarian has acted scummy all game, has straight up lied today in attacking me today, has asked innane logical questions that serve no purpose, and the thing that tips you to not vote him is because he hypothesized that there was a mafia godfather in play, and he was wrong? No, look at his play the entire game.

That makes no sense Iecerint. For one thing, he comes up with this theory out of nowhere, it is completely wrong and has no relevance to anything. Nothing about it makes sense except to confuse people and make them vote for his mislynch.

[Hydra]

I've acted protown this entire game. I may have been wrong yesterday about DX being scum, but It came directly from a protown mindset. Yosarian hasn't shown that. I really have no idea what Yosarian's reason for voting me is besides 'he looks bad', with very little follow up explanation.

[Hydra]

You tried to protect the mafia roleblocker yesterday by trying to mislynch me. You directly played to further the scum's win condition, period.

You're implying here that somehow I should have known that MBL was both scum and the scum roleblocker yesterday, when In reality I had no idea this was the case. I took the facts confronted against me, and decided that DX made the most sense as scum, voted him before voting you. Trying to lynch someone I think is scum, that being you, is not furthering anything but the town win condition.

I perused Mafia Discussion, and see you here with the same mindset I presented yesterday, not trusting them or dismissing them but trying to figure out who was lying or not, which is incidently what you are painting as a major 'scumtell for me';

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 0#p3355990

I think you also said somewhere else that finding town depends more on their intention then if they were right or not, and if you look at yesterday you could clearly see I believed what I was saying, yest you dismiss this because you don't like the conclusions I reached and because I was wrong initially about DX.

Thats some of the main reasons I think you're scum, the deviation between what you say when you alignment is not in question (MD) and here. I'm also saying I don't really see a solid reason for voting me besides the fact that yesterday I didn't go for MBL, when it wasn't clear at all this was a correct lynch.

You on the other hand, seemed exceedingly certain he

WAS

going to flip scum, even past the point when it might have been logical to question your own read (re: he claimed town post hammer). Thats what also convinced me that you maybe had inside knowledge of his role, then.

[Hydra]

Also, Yosarian, a lot of your argument is predicated on the fact that 'I am likely getting lynched', which I still believe isn't and doesn't have to be the case. A lot of your previous post is over generalization of how you think townies play, again, I don't think anyone should really believe that when your alignment is in serious question.

I've already given you my position on that argument before.

also,

I've certainly been playing much more pro-town then you have all game.

Can you back this up?