New York 138: OxyMoron Mafia :: Game Over!

[Ironhead]

/confirm as replacement.

It will take me some time to catch up -- do not expect any content from me for a bit.

GM: Can you update the first post with the names of the new replacements, and who they replaced in for?

[Ironhead]

Here's my stream-of-consciousness thoughts on the game as I read up.

Mastin2, who initiated RQS, seems to be acting lucid and rational -- very much unlike the way he played in our last game together. He was the doctor that game.

David Xanatos' post #130 does not look town-motivated. Calling RQS stupid or silly or a waste of time is one thing; outright refusing to answer looks like he doesn't want anyone to get a read on him.

Kcdaspot employs overly dramatic posting style -- similar to our last game together and he was town then.

Not liking Oversoul's posting on pages 7 & 8.

Eh, Johhog. In general, self-voting looks awful, but his posting improved considerably on page 8. It then took a turn for the worse on page 11 with his AtE. Not sure about him -- wavering from scum to null.

I like Fool_Hardy. Leaning town; also thinking he is an enjoyable player to have around.

Empking's #266 = pure town motivation.

Vifam's getting the better of Johhog in their exchange -- maybe not in terms of winning the argument, but in appearing town and making Johhog appear scum.

Jesus. Pages 14-16 are inane and difficult to bear.

Oversoul votes himself. Not good. Bomberman unvotes -- very good.

Johhog votes Oversoul even though he finds him to be a townread. His logic is "he is playing against his wincon." By that same logic, Johhog is either scum or must be mislynched himself. I'm now leaning toward him being scum.

Page 21: Oversoul is scum.

Xeras enters the scene and immediately gives off strong town vibes.

Page 28: Bomberman and Kcdaspot want to quit? FFS, it's just a game

Page 29: Johhog goes back to acting scummy. Foolish Fool starts giving strong town vibes.

...


TOWN
Empking
Xeras
projectmatt
Lady Lamdbadelta
Foolish Fool
Vifam
Hoppster
Estyn
redFF
LordChronos
SecretProject
Mastin2
David Xanatos
Johhog
Oversoul
SCUM

[Ironhead]

I'm going to try something:

1: Why do you play Mafia?

For fun.

2: How old are you?

Older than the lot of you. I once bought a Vanilla Ice tape when it was popular.

3: How would you describe your general thought process?

Logical

.

4: What is your time-zone?

Mountain Summer Time.

5: How do you approach unique problems in need of solution?

Resourcefulness

.

6: What is your favorite precious metal, and why?

I don't think I have a favorite. My wife prefers platinum, so that is what I buy her when I get her jewelry.

7: How would you approach this game as town?

Logically -- let the scum make a mistake, then point it out and convince everyone to vote scum.

8: How would you approach this game as scum?

Not make any mistakes in logic.

9: What is your gender?

Male

.

10: Are you nervous?

No

.

11: What is your experience level?

Been playing since 2003

.

12: What are your strongest emotions?

Exasperation

.

13: What's your general activity level?

At least one post per day. Sometimes more, especially on weekends.

14: What is your plan in this game?

Lynch scum.

15: Which do you prefer: RVS, RQS, or other? (If Other, please explain.)

RQS, as RVS is an illusion.

16: Do you have a reputation? What for?

I have been criticized as being overly logical.

17: Do you prefer playing as town, scum, or other? (If Other, please explain.)

Town

18: What are your favorite three roles?

Cop, VT, Godfather

19: What order are those favorite roles in?

In order of most to least favorite

.

20: What is your stance on lurkers?

Let them watch, as long as they are active enough when it counts to keep the game moving.

21: How do you plan on catching scum?

With my wits.

22: What do these questions mean to you?

That you ask a lot of questions.

23: What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow?

Please specify African or European.

24: You see someone waving their arms and directing you to go right. How do you respond?

Shoot the hostage.

Also: VOTE: OVERSOUL

P-Edit: But you didn't say it was a waste of time -- if you had, I wouldn't have thought it was scum-motivated. Instead, you voted him and then refused to answer. Looks like there was more of an investment there than just a waste of your time.

[Ironhead]

Okay.

So.

Oversoul will

not

be lynched today.

At least for the foreseeable future while I try and work something out.

While I don't object to a David Xanatos lynch per se, I don't understand your reason for wanting to rule Oversoul out. What bothers me is him (a) self-voting; and then (b) after the town backed off of him, he cites his self-vote as proof positive that he is town. What town-motivation is there in that sequence?

[Ironhead]

Please don't replace out, or threaten to replace out, because of the way others are prosecuting you That is partly what crippled this game before. Please remember that there is nothing personal about it -- everyone is playing to their wincon, so the player you think is being abusive either (a) legitimately thinks you are scum; or (b) is scum and is trying to engineer a mislynch.

[Ironhead]

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta
Non-poster. Will change it when I get a reasonable scumread on someone.

This is a good point -- the discussion is being driven by the same players who are actively posting; and the rest of the players have failed to join the discussion. If there is scum in the lurkers -- which there almost certainly are, based on mathematical odds alone -- then we are letting them fly under the radar for free.

GM: Has everyone responded to their prods from when the game restarted?

[Ironhead]

An additional question I want to ask everyone:

25A: Do you play more for fun, or more for the thrill of victory?
25B: Your stance aside, do you think others should play with a similar outlook? Explain why or why not.

A. Both -- victory is fun. But it is only a game, so I don't get too wrapped up in a loss.
B. Yes -- over-competitiveness turns players into jerks; under-competitiveness turns them into pushovers.

[Ironhead]

Because I don't see any viable lynch target and we need to find one, deadline is coming up in like a week.

Also, as I said, I don't know how to play my role but I think it would have several benefits to claim.

A D-1 claim is problematic for us and for the claimer. It is too early for you to have established a strong history of breadcrumbs and so we are faced with a pretty binary option of whether to believe you or not. In general, the odds are more likely that you are lying (it is a variation of the Monty Hall problem -- the only town role that would claim a PR is that specific PR; but every scum role could claim it as well).

I am disinclined to vote you today, but if you claim I will be obligated to do so: because if you are telling the truth (approx 17-20% chance*), your lifespan is shortened anyway, so we wouldn't get much use out of you; and if you are lying (approx 80-83% chance*), we must lynch you so that the real PR doesn't have to expose him or herself in a counterclaim.

*Odds assume either 4 or 5 scum in the game; and that all are equally likely to fake-claim PR.

[Ironhead]

If you can prove your role, then I drop my objection; but remember that a mafia role-blocker can prevent you from performing nocturnal actions, so if this was how you intended to prove it to us I wouldn't count on it.

In general, an early claim like this -- with little provocation but clearly timed to interdict bandwagon momentum -- is bad for the town. You were and still are one of my scum reads. We still have time for further scum-hunting, but I think you ought to start demonstrating that you are town or resign yourself to being lynched. For starters: who do you think should be lynched today, and why?

[Ironhead]

I have a scum read on Johhog, and with this dancing around the claim issue my gut is saying we should lynch this scum. But, my brain is saying we must wait until we have a chance to hear from everyone in the game -- it would be a mistake to allow anyone to slip through the cracks on D-1 without some sort of opportunity for us to get a read on them.

[Ironhead]

You claim to be an even night vig? Here is how I envision you "proving" your ability:

Night 1, no vig kill -- "I told you guys I'm an even night scum; just wait until tomorrow!"
Night 2, no vig kill -- "Gosh, I must have been role-blocked! Don't worry, I'll get 'em next time!"
Night 3, no vig kill -- "Only one more night until I can finally prove my ability!"
Night 4, no vig kill -- "Shucks, what are the odds of being role-blocked

again

? Don't lynch me bro, I'm legit!"
Day 5 -- Johhog is lynched and flips scum.

Maybe I'm wrong and you will flip vig. If so, I'm going to facepalm and lament players like you who panic and claim when unnecessary. Regardless, I'm going to push for your lynch as early as possible -- why wait until Day 5 to lynch you when we can do so now and save the following days for real scumhunting, instead of incessant discussions of should we/shouldn't we polluting this thread?

UNVOTE: OVERSOUL
VOTE: JOHHOG

[Ironhead]

There seems to be an epidemic in this forum of players using the term "confirmed town" to mean roughly the equivalent of prob-town. Although in this case, I wouldn't even call Johhog prob-town.

[Ironhead]

I'm with Oversoul on this one; if there is a valid reason to think one of the missing players is scum, then let's lynch him; but I do not think we ought to lynch someone just to pare down the number of deserters, especially since the GM can keep trying to find replacements.

Furthermore, I find Empking's post particularly troublesome -- coming so quickly after the night result was posted, and seeming to know the reason for the NK choice. I had just assumed that the mafia targeted Estyn because they thought he was a threat; Empking apparently assumed (or

knew

) that the rationale was to knock off inactive players. He is definitely not my top town read anymore.

@Oversoul: Why do you suppose lewarcher/replacement is scum?

[Ironhead]

an odd reluctance to vote for lewarcher when it's clearly the thing to do right now.[/color]

Why is it the thing to do? Because it is "popular"? And how did it become popular?

I suspect that this wagon is scum-driven. Your thoughts?

[Ironhead]

Well Oversoul clearly has a decent reason to want us to be voting for lewarcher, unless he's trying some audacious bluff. That seems to be a more solid bet to be voting for somebody than arguing about it for 40 pages which will almost certainly end in most of us losing our temper.

It may well be scum driven for all I know, but I don't see a much better course of action for us to do now.

When did Oversoul become a paragon of towniness, or even a reliable scumhunter?

VOTE: Otolia for now. I know I thought red was scummy when I skimmed, but I'll need to analyze him more thoroughly.

Otolia's content is thin, but I see your line of thought -- yours is the best case, and thus best vote, at this early point in the day.

VOTE: OTOLIA

[Ironhead]

Lew is an original player, I think.

I agree with Empking in that Lewarcher is most likely scum (as Empking noted in #1229), as there are likely more mafia than remaining town-affiliated gunmen. I disagree with bvoigt in that we must wait for his replacement to claim -- I cannot imagine what role the replacement could possibly claim that would save him from being lynched, as the value of confirming Oversoul as town* is pretty powerful.

If Lew is indeed scum, I think we will find at least one of his partner(s) among those who didn't join Oversoul's bandwagon -- bvoigt, fatlikepig, mastin2, and me. I know I'm not scum and I'm pretty confident of my town-read on bvoigt. Both fatlikepig and mastin2 have manifested some scumminess.

UNVOTE: OTOLIA
VOTE: LEWARCHER

*I assume gunsmith role is always town, as I've never seen it scum-affiliated -- does anyone know if it is ever a scum role?

[Ironhead]

If Lew is indeed scum, I think we will find at least one of his partner(s) among those who didn't join Oversoul's bandwagon -- bvoigt, fatlikepig, mastin2, and me. I know I'm not scum and I'm pretty confident of my town-read on bvoigt. Both fatlikepig and mastin2 have manifested some scumminess.

Why? Oversoul basically went, "HEY, LET'S VOTE FOR LEW OK?" I think there's valid reasons to not hop on a BW like that.

I know -- which is why scum wouldn't feel obligated to bus their partner. Let's assume lewarcher flips scum; up until Oversoul claimed gunsmith, scum could dismiss him as an unreliable accuser simply because he had such a weak performance yesterday, and that his accusation today was pretty mastin2-esque. Why gin up momentum on a lewarcher wagon based on Oversoul's post?

Because the reasoning was there, townies had a reason to avoid that wagon as well -- I, too, was disinclined to vote lewarcher. So suppose that of all active players, townies were roughly equally likely to vote lewarcher as they were likely to vote someone else; but scum would almost certainly vote someone else, since the accusation was baseless (at the time) and they don't want unneeded momentum on a partner's bandwagon. From that, I infer that those who voted lewarcher before Oversoul's claim gain tremendous town-cred, but those who voted someone else become more likely to be scum.

Regardless, it is all academic until lewarcher flips. If he flips scum, I will be pushing hard on either you or mastin2. You are welcome to do the same on me, but I think my erstwhile performance speaks for itself.

[Ironhead]

@Ironhead: Do you still think Otolia is scummy? Does him stating that he was willing to vote for Lew earn him town-cred from your POV?

I still think Otolia is scummy based on his gameplay from before Oversoul's claim. I don't think Otolia gets any town credit for

talking

about voting lewarcher. He had an opportunity to put his money where his mouth is and he didn't.

Today's lynch must be lewarcher; Otolia is a possible candidate for tomorrow

[Ironhead]

Unless you're talking about scum getting overexcited and just dropping it into their post by accident, which just seems silly.

I don't think this is silly at all. I think this is how most scumslips occur.

What David Xanatos identified as a scumslip didn't stand out to me on first reading, and I probably wouldn't have thought twice. But your reaction is as scummy as anything else so far:

I have a feeling that I'm not going to get anywhere with this scumslip business. I'm now having to argue from the point of "Well, if that was actually what I had meant to say, then I would thought x", which I'm not really able to do, since I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from.

Do what you will with it, keep in mind that I maintain that it was a simple mistake in wording.

This is worse! I expect a townie to defend himself, especially if he legitimately believes that the case on him is weak. Your "no contest" plea looks like you're waiting for the whole thing to blow over and everyone to forget.

Coincidentally, you also meet my criteria for having NOT VOTED lewarcher when it mattered. You also hopped on Otolia's bandwagon after bvoigt and I ginned it up. You, sir, are scum.

lewarcher, Otolia, fatlikepig -- there are multiple scum in this group.

David, stop trying to out guess the mod and make broad assumptions. Leaving Lewarcher at this moment in the game is the best mce for town. I don't want to lynch another town PR like yesterday. Lewarcher alive gives WIFOM to the mafia. If we lynch him, I am surely going to die tonight.

Otolia is actually scummy especially with his fail hammer and his horrible play today. If Lew isn't dead tomorrow, and I am we can safely assume that he is more likely mafia.

I shouldn't have even made the claim. >_> I have such bad foresight.

[Ironhead]

EBWOP: Meant to comment on Oversoul's post as well.

The gist of my comment was that I thought lewarcher was the better lynch today, to confirm Oversoul as town and support the fatlikepig-scum case.

[Ironhead]

This is worse! I expect a townie to defend himself, especially if he legitimately believes that the case on him is weak. Your "no contest" plea looks like you're waiting for the whole thing to blow over and everyone to forget.

How on earth do you expect me to defend myself when the case being leveled against me is "Hey, you said x when you really wanted to say y, but just for the sake of things, can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?"? I'd defend myself if I know that something I said could be taken as a scumslip, but there's no scumslip to defend.

But that is not the case against you! No one is saying "can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?" By claiming that this is the case against you, you are strawmanning.

Scum.

You know, hopped on it and also added to it (or at least attempted to add to it) by questioning Otolia on stuff that hadn't been brought up.

So did redFF, by the way. Are you going to ask him about it too?

How does lynching lewarcher strengthen your case on me?

Scum, scum, and more scum. I'm not prosecuting redFF because he didn't dissemble under pressure of a suggested scumslip. If lewarcher flips scum, that would support the case I built in #1236 and #1238. This supports your scumminess.

[Ironhead]

But that is not the case against you! No one is saying "can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?" By claiming that this is the case against you, you are strawmanning.

So what, pray tell, is the case on me?

In #1240, you accidentally mentioned the possibility of

outing

a PR (instead of

lynching

a PR). A minor slip perhaps, and one that few players would have seen anyway. But David Xanatos -- who deserves much town-cred for this catch, if you do flip scum -- questioned you on it. Your reaction to his line of questioning was to panic and dissemble, under very little pressure from him:

Just FTR, I realise that outing and lynching are different terms. It was an easy mistake for me to make, considering I was thinking about Oversoul outing himself, the fact that another PR may have been outed, etc.

...

I get the fact that scum want to out PRs, but I don't see how that applies in that case, even if we are to take it as being what I meant to say. Unless you're talking about scum getting overexcited and just dropping it into their post by accident, which just seems silly.

Your first response is to suggest it was an "easy mistake" (presumably you meant to imply that it was an easy mistake for townies to make as well) and then you dismiss it with an Appeal to Ridicule ("...just seems silly."). Appeal to Ridicule is an Appeal to Emotion. AtE is a scumtell.

I have a feeling that I'm not going to get anywhere with this scumslip business. I'm now having to argue from the point of "Well, if that was actually what I had meant to say, then I would thought x", which I'm not really able to do, since I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from.

Do what you will with it, keep in mind that I maintain that it was a simple mistake in wording.

More AtE. Preemptive surrender looks scummy -- a townie would keep fighting the accusation, using logic to rebut the case (because, if you were a townie, the logic would exist as you would know that you aren't scum; scum, on the other hand, cannot rely on logic because the accusation is true).

Also, I didn't catch this on my first read:

"...I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from."

Come again? Which role has to make up a perspective to look from? This seems like a much more damning scum-slip (as scum have to make up the perspective of a townie during the day).

This is worse! I expect a townie to defend himself, especially if he legitimately believes that the case on him is weak. Your "no contest" plea looks like you're waiting for the whole thing to blow over and everyone to forget.

How on earth do you expect me to defend myself when the case being leveled against me is "Hey, you said x when you really wanted to say y, but just for the sake of things, can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?"? I'd defend myself if I know that something I said could be taken as a scumslip, but there's no scumslip to defend.

I've already noted the strawman. Scum-tell.

Coincidentally, you also meet my criteria for having NOT VOTED lewarcher when it mattered. You also hopped on Otolia's bandwagon after bvoigt and I ginned it up. You, sir, are scum.

You know, hopped on it and also added to it (or at least attempted to add to it) by questioning Otolia on stuff that hadn't been brought up.

So did redFF, by the way. Are you going to ask him about it too?

How does lynching lewarcher strengthen your case on me?

Deflection. Trying to get us to chase redFF instead of him.

And that's just the case built on your scum-slip. There's also the problem of your voting behavior -- redFF and I unwittingly created an alternate bandwagon to the lewarcher wagon, and you hopped on it before Oversoul claimed gunsmith. If lewarcher flips scum, it appears you wanted to derail his wagon so you could lynch Otolia instead.

And even after Oversoul claimed, you still espouse the idea of voting someone else:

The Gunsmith isn't a guilty though. Lew could be scum, but he could also be cop/vig/another gunsmith/some other PR with a gun, and given that he hasn't posted, there's no way to tell either way. Considering we've already lynched Johhog, I'm quite wary of lynching another important PR today. Though I can see that the lynching to confirm Oversoul / possibly hit scum could be good for us.

Oversoul shows a little prevarication in #1227, and you egg him on. So who's it going to be: lewarcher or Otolia? At this point, I'm pretty confident that one of these two is scum; if lewarcher is scum, then you are his partner. If Otolia is scum, you get zero town-cred for hopping on his bandwagon unless lewarcher flips town. And it's possible (even if the odds are unlikely) that both lewarcher and Otolia are scum; in which case you are still scum.

[Ironhead]

Alright, David and Oversoul are town. I don't think Oversoul is bussing, and if David didn't towntell before he towntold now. redFF is very easily a scum, so is Ironhead or Secret Project. We'll see.

Let's not put the cart in front of the horse. Both Oversoul and David Xanatos could yet be scum or third party -- dependent upon how lewarcher/Otolia/fatlikepig flip.

I'll reiterate something I said yesterday: let's not accord to unconfirmed players the mantle of "confirmed."

[Ironhead]

Empking is his scumbuddy.

I doubt it. Empking is being skeptical -- which is pro-town. What is not pro-town is calling two unconfirmed players "confirmed town." Also, do you have any news for us from last night's investigation?

what do we think of the oversoul/hoppster/secret project "mason circle"? I think it could be worth it to look into these guys and maybe lynch into those 3 today.

I don't know if any are worth lynching today. But they are all worth checking out, questioning, etc, to ascertain a better read on them. They are certainly not confirmed.

also complimenting doctor/bodyguard is a scumtell.

You suppose that Oversoul is a scum who bused his partner yesterday? It is possible, but as long as he keeps producing investigation results that we can demonstrate to be true we ought to keep him around.

Are you guys seriously fucking retarded?

Why would Hiplop, as scum, out all three of us if we were the scum group together?

Or do you think there are two mafia groups, which there clearly isn't.

He did that so that the mafia would know to shoot in the now confirmed town neighbor group.

WIFOM, from what I can see. And I would very much like to know how you know there "clearly isn't" two mafia groups?

VOTE: FATLIKEPIG

[Ironhead]

Vote: Fatlikepig

For omgus.

To echo Fatlikepig's protest: What OMGUS??? I'm voting him because of his pattern of behavior yesterday, and if you want to jump on that reasoning you are welcome to do so. But his comments today are not OMGUS. Please explain what you think is OMGUS.

WHO DO YOU THINK I HAVE A RESULT ON

/peeved

I would like to know who you investigated so that we know who might know is cleared /exasperated

Oversoul, you are going stop right now with the insults and the swearing.

I hate self-righteousness. Oversoul's behavior is grating, but this isn't any better. And isn't about time you started scumhunting? Who do you think is scum?

honestly mastin has done absolutely nothing this game and i am fine with lynching him.

Do you think he is scum for not doing anything this game? I look at his gameplay so far and see mastin being mastin -- not a scumtell for me. Are you familiar with his gameplay, and if not, have you checked his meta?

@TOGTFO: Can you please finish your analysis and tell us your reads?

[Ironhead]

UNVOTE: FATLIKEPIG
VOTE: OTOLIA

By my count, this brings Otolia to L-3. And I agree that he needs to claim.

Incidentally, I was concerned that Oversoul would get role-blocked and would himself become a target for lynch today when he could not produce a result -- but the fact that he did is pretty compelling proof that the scum don't have a role-blocker (or rather, if they do, it is probably Lady Lambdadelta, the inactive player). If they don't have a role-blocker, though, what does that mean about the number and strength of our PRs?

[Ironhead]

Why did you choose to watch those two?

[Ironhead]

I despise self-hammering.

Any parting words to share? Reads, suspicions, observations, etc?

[Ironhead]

If Oversoul didn't get a positive result -- or even if he did -- let's not lynch anyone until everyone has actively re-joined the game. Yesterday, we let three players get by without posting at all: Foolish Fool, Vifam, and Lady Lambadelta. This, in combination with the unreliability of the GM's deadlines, is crushing this game. This is one of the slowest and most boring games I've seen on this site.

@GM: Have Foolish Fool and Vifam responded to their prods? Do we have a replacement for LLD yet?

[Ironhead]

I'm not so sure fatlikepig is scum. Otolia's flipping scum threw a lot of my analysis of him out the window.

I also disagree stridently with many of Oversoul's reads. I think Xeras, mastin2, TOGTFO, and David Xanatos are high probability to be scum (vis-a-vis the rest of the town). I'm also unconvinced that evilpacman18 is town simply by virtue of being in the neighborhood. Meanwhile, I'm not so sold on Foolish Fool, projectmatt, or fatlikepig being scum.

My reads:

TOWN

Oversoul (isn't yet 100% confirmed, but close -- I doubt a scum would bus

two

of his partners)
redFF (don't much like his play, but Oversoul vouches for him and I don't think he is a SK)
Empking (pro-town play)
projectmatt (had some pro-town play before his activity dropped off)
Foolish Fool (had some pro-town play before his activity dropped off)
fatlikepig (his VCA looks a lot better now that we know Otolia was scum)
evilpacman18 (I got it, he was in the neighborhood and Oversoul trusts him... but I don't get a good vibe from him)
David Xanatos (null, at best. He strikes me as a talented player, which means that if scum he would be able to hide it well)
mastin2 (promising brilliant analysis and failing to deliver; on the other hand, this is not unusual for mastin2)
TOGTFO (Why is he asking people to claim? Pretty ham-handed role-fishing)
Xeras (Not much to like about his play so far)

SCUM

Not on here are Vifam and Lady Lambdadelta. Without getting a replacement to start participating for them, they are non-entities. One or both may very well be scum, and I am hesitant to move forward with a lynch today without a replacement for them.

@GM: Can one of the deceased town-affiliated players come back in for these two roles? I can't see how Hoppster or bvoigt would have inside information that would prohibit them coming back to plug these gaps in the roster.

However, I will VOTE: XERAS for now. Would like to see this thread come alive with discussion, and I may be inclined to change my vote.

[Ironhead]

Why is there talk of an SK?

I don't think anyone is talking of it -- I recall someone noting that the only way a bad guy can slip through a gunsmith's investigation is if he is a SK, so in an academic sense it has been mentioned.

I laughed at iron's reads. Its like the obv town people he grudgingly admits are town!

How so? I'm not sure who you characterize as "obv town" but since no one is confirmed town,

anyone

could be scum. Even Oversoul

could be

scum, theoretically (scenario: Oversoul buses two partners, then claims to have investigated RedFF, another partner, and cleared him; no one questions those two for the rest of the game, no other PRs bother to waste their time checking on them, until it is too late). This is Mafia -- employ a little skepticism.

Furthermore, the important part of that list were at the bottom -- those I think are scum. Included in that list are players who Oversoul cited as town-reads. Don't you think that is an important discrepancy to note? Speaking of which, what are

your

reads? Are you going to do anything to scumhunt besides petulantly asking others to role-claim?

@GM: Can one of the deceased town-affiliated players come back in for these two roles? I can't see how Hoppster or bvoigt would have inside information that would prohibit them coming back to plug these gaps in the roster.

Didn't even see this part of his post.

Ironhead looks like a pretty intelligent player, but he doesn't understand the inherently gamebreaking status of this? It would either confirm or deny one of those slots as town, which would be a direct intervention at the hands of the mod. Pretty sure that isn't going to happen lol.

It can happen, and often does -- I did it in my very first game on this site, several years ago, after dying early in the game. Assuming they died without any inside information, they can sub into any other town or scum role. From what we can see from their deaths, the only inside information they may have had is their old role (which we all now know) and who they targeted for their nightly actions -- which I don't think would be game-changing, but the GM can judge for himself.

[Ironhead]

There has only been 1 kill a night, I don't understand why you think there is an SK, Ironhead.

I don't think there is an SK I only mentioned it because EPM asked in #1375. What makes you think I think there is an SK?

I didn't realize having others replace into another slot in a game they died in was actually a common occurrence. O_o

Yes, but can only be done if they have no inside info. So vanilla townies can always replace in for any role; scum can never replace in. Other town PRs are contingent upon what inside info they may have; obviously, a dead cop couldn't replace back in since he knows who he investigated and what those results were.

It's pretty common because it is much easier for the replacement to get caught up if he was already a part of the game. In this situation, I imagine that the GM has a hard time persuading anyone to read 50+ pages of drivel to get caught up, so asking Hoppster or bvoigt seems more likely to get us a replacement.

[Ironhead]

Ohh, is it because of this?

redFF (don't much like his play, but Oversoul vouches for him and I don't think he is a SK)

This is what I mean by skepticism. I am reading redFF as town because he is cleared by Oversoul's result (which can only be wrong if Oversoul is lying or redFF is SK). I addressed the issue of Oversoul lying in the line above this one, where I indicated that I doubt Oversoul is scum; and the last part of this line addressed the issue of redFF being SK. By addressing both, I eliminate the remaining doubt, satisfying skepticism.

And to clarify, I actually don't have any reason to think redFF is acting

too townie

to be SK; it's just that there clearly isn't an SK (unless maybe it is one of the inactives). If we

were

seeing multiple kills each night, I would be far more suspicious of redFF being SK.

[Ironhead]

The alternative could be having two players mod-killed. This is not a fun option, for us or for the GM.

@TOGTFO: Can you please give us your reads?

[Ironhead]

I'd also like to point out that I've played one other game with Ironhead and he was town in that game and he's playing it VERY differently.

I was cop that game.

Link is here.

[Ironhead]

If there is a mistake, point it out.

Mistake: I'm voting Xeras, but you have it as Xeras voting me.

Fixed. -ODM

...

I agree that inactivity is killing this game. We need replacements for those who haven't responded to a prod; and we need those here to show a little life. That means discussion, casting a vote, listing your reads, or something! This game is going to die of mass inactivity if we don't save it.

[Ironhead]

Project Matt, what are your reads?

Same goes for your, David?

Can we also request TOGTFO's reads? I asked him for it earlier, but he is disinclined to listen to me. You and I have both provided our reads, and I think we should demand this of everyone -- for the sake of scum-hunting as well as for the sake of keeping this game active.

[Ironhead]

kk thats enough for me
UNVOTE:
VOTE: ironhead

Derp.

Before I clicked "submit" on that last post, it occurred to me that it may be interpreted it as a scummy approach to faux scumhunting. I submitted it anyway, because at this point any activity is pro-town and any inactivity is inherently anti-town. Regardless of what you think my alignment is, you ought to delineate between what is a tangible part of the game and what is simply trying to keep the game alive.

Your vote is acknowledged; but in the spirit of keeping this game off of life support, can you please also provide your reads?

[Ironhead]

I think that Ironhead's latest posts sound very forced in tone, specifically this quote.

Somebody's got to be the bad guy and do something to keep this game going. It drives me bonkers to see so much apathy. It's only a game! If you didn't want to play, why did you sign up? Etc. I sincerely wish that the town as a whole would get agitated over comments like:

Prododge

and

Actually, I think uninterested is the proper word.

There is nothing intrinsically scummy about being uninterested (although scum definitely have the high ground if a town allows such shameless inactivity). But the only way for anyone to get interested is to stir the pot and see what rises. No one else seems to want to stir except, to some extent, Oversoul and EPM. Activity begets more activity; the only antidote for inactivity is activity, no matter how trite or forced it is. I don't think anyone can scumhunt if there is nothing to analyze; the only way to generate fodder for analysis is to volunteer that fodder, or to exact it from others. That is why I have offered up my reads -- although it leaves me open to analysis, I also know it helps the town and analysis of me will reveal that I am not the scum we are looking for. But this only works if there are others who are also putting themselves out there for analysis -- I thought my voluntary offer of reads would keep the game going and induces others to offer their reads. Except it didn't; why am I the only one who selflessly opens myself up to attack? There is a difference between town and scum -- town don't mind being analyzed, as there is nothing there to indict them; scum have a vested interest in not doing so, and so will try to weasel out of it (looking strongly at TOGTFO here). But dammit, shouldn't bona fide townies demand it of them -- and of each other?

/gets off soap box

I think after the game we can discuss the dynamics of activity versus inactivity, and I will opine further. In the meantime, I respectfully request that everyone provide their reads -- in the interest of keeping the level of activity up and to allow for scumhunting. Until something happens, this game is essentially dead.

[Ironhead]

I want to vote Ironhead but others disagree?

Well, yes, I for one disagree.

Between fatlikepig and Xeras, Xeras is the scummier of the two. The latest exchange where Xeras changed his vote and fatlikepig responded with sarcasm demonstrates it, IMO.

[Ironhead]

@Ironhead - do you agree with fatlikeapig's case on Xeras?

I don't think he has a distinct case, other than Xeras' failure to answer the "what OMGUS" exchange from a while back. I think that Xeras is the best lynch today based on an objective review of his gameplay vis-a-vis everyone else's gameplay. It is based largely on PoE; in my view, Xeras has played least like a townie, or least in a pro-town manner. I have seen nothing to dissuade me from thinking that fatlikepig also sees Xeras from this perspective.

[Ironhead]

Why do you guys think that OS hasn't been killed yet, despite being an investigative role?

Because either (a) he's been protected, repeatedly, by a doc or similar role (and we have a third party to account for the killing each night); or (b) he's scum who bused two of his partners; or (c) scum are playing WIFOM games with us to try to discredit him.

I think (a) and (b) are extremely low probability, and think it is likely (c).

Why do you think he's still alive?

[Ironhead]

Ironhead: Defend yourself against mastin's allegation, please.

It hinges upon me wanting to mislynch fatlikepig. While that may have appeared to be plausible yesterday, today I have insisted that fatlikepig is not a good candidate -- a statement I still stand by. mastin2 cherry-picked a quote wherein I listed Otolia, lewarcher, and fatlikepig as containing at least two scum. It was a rather obvious conclusion (although mastin2 portrays it as a clever double-bus; I suggest checking my meta to gauge my level of cleverness), and since Otolia

was

scum I could safely conclude that fatlikepig probably

is not

. Furthermore, one of mastin2's gems is that scum would hop on lewarcher's wagon -- a conclusion with which I agree to some degree -- but I recall being resistant to his lynch. Like fatlikepig, I preferred the Otolia wagon that day. I also object to his characterization that I am trying to set up him and others for mislynches.

Having said all that in my own defense, I also want to laud mastin2 for taking the time to finally deliver on his promises of analysis and activity. If my defense is not persuasive, I welcome continued pressure as I am comfortable that a sustained inquiry will acquit me. I also continue my prosecution of Xeras, who still appears to me to be scummiest today.

[Ironhead]

Delusions of grandeur

As I read this lengthy post, I kept picturing Wallace Shawn as the Sicilian from the movie

The Princess Bride

: Never go in with a mastin when DEATH is on the line! Ironhead, best me in a battle of wits?

Inconceivable!

Am in an airport right now about to board my plane, and thus don't have time for a logic-based response, but will take another look tonight or tomorrow.

[Ironhead]

There's a lot here and it is all over the place, so bear with me:

Ah, so you ARE going for the "mislynch Mastin" path.

Strawman. I clearly pointed out that I was not, and without any proof to the contrary you insist I am and then attack upon this premise.

This is the path you would take if you had given up on trying to mislynch me, and accepted that it was no longer possible to achieve.

I question the validity of both the assumption and the conclusion. Nobody Special requested that I address your case and I think it is fair that I oblige this request (I certainly do not want to be party to intentional inactivity, in any case). My response was not a riposte to you, but a redress to Nobody Special. So the assumption that I oughtn't defend myself, and that by doing so I am trying to mislynch you, is deeply flawed.

2: Point out exactly what's wrong and try to point out exactly how full of holes my logic is. The obvious reason for choosing this path is, of course, to try and make me look less credible.

I again question your conclusion. As noted above, my defense was in response to Nobody Special's request; the reasoning for doing this includes steering the town away from a mislynch, sustaining scum-hunting, avoiding inactivity, etc. It certainly does not include trying to make you look less credible. You are accusing me of resorting to argumentum ad hominem, which is itself an argumentum ad hominem (you are not responding to my argument, but to my motives -- which you insist is "making you look less credible").

Out-of-thread, I'm going to assume since the neighborhood apparently has daytalk, the scum do as well.

This is an interesting comment; I do not recall anyone anywhere announcing that neighborhood has daytalk, and I do not recall mastin2 being a part of the neighborhood. How does he infer that scum have daytalk?

Perhaps this is a scumslip; and by my pointing this out, mastin2's claims of me trying to target him become a self-fulfilling prophecy. mastin2 is not high on my list of scum suspects, but if he cannot logically demonstrate how he reached this conclusion I think he will quickly rise to the top.

Additionally, you answered my questions. In much the way I was anticipating. What you couldn't have known (nor could I have known, either, until recently) is that by answering the questions about how you'd play as scum/town and what your plan was, you gave me your thought process and a view into your intentions. So, I can read your mind.

I dare say that perhaps you are fitting the conclusion to fit your own preconceived ideas, based on the answers you received to your questions. At the risk of pointing out the obvious (which may be obvious to everyone else, but apparently not to you) -- scum can and almost certainly will lie on your questionnaire. I cannot imagine a scum would tell you exactly how he would play and then play that hand as he announced.

It is far more likely that a townie will play his hand faithfully and honestly, and you will misinterpret those actions to fit what you think he would do as scum, based on his answers to your questionnaire -- because, remember, a townie is not intentionally trying to mold his actions to appear townish.

...

I hope I've adequately addressed your case -- it is tough, because you are meandering a bit and I'm not really sure what is going on inside your head. Tough to appeal to logic when, as you've cheerfully admitted, you don't employ logic.

In any event, keep the questions coming, I'm quite certain I can demonstrate that your suspicions are mislaid. And for Pete's sake, don't try to quicklynch me, as you agitated for in #1503. Give me a chance to claim -- it can only help the town.