NY 154: Return to Boring Town - Game Over

[nhammen]

He said there was none

[nhammen]

Also, cuz he has so far always been scum in every game we have been in together:
VOTE: Pine

[nhammen]

And cuz he hasn't confirmed yet. Although I usually am not a fan of last to confirm.

[nhammen]

Ah. But would his alignment have any effect on that?

[nhammen]

It did actually, I would expect scum to get defensive, I already voted him and told him I was being serious. He answered genuinely.

You have too much confidence in reaction tests. Especially bad reaction tests. Whose alt are you? Unfortunately, I consider this a personality tell rather than an alignment tell.

Yeah someone named mcqueen really intimidates me.

So, you were making posts that were at least attempts to get actual information, but when someone votes you, you... insult that person based on their username? That's a step in the wrong direction. A few steps in fact.
VOTE: Prescending

unvote, vote: salamence

to the moon!

VOTE: roflcopter

Any reason for this? Also, the rest of that post is worthless and shouldn't have been posted.

[nhammen]

Any reason you didn't want to join one of the wagons Toon?

Also, for mcqueen, I do not policy lynch. But if prescending is the scummiest, I will keep my vote on him.

[nhammen]

Do we still not have confirms on both Bunnylover and Pine? Pine must be a bigger name than Bunnylover too considering 2 people have now voted him for not confirming but not mentioned Bunny at all.

I have been in 3 games with Pine, and he was scum in all 3. In 2 of those, we were partners. I might have been in 1 game with Bunny, I don't remember at all. So yes, to me Pine is a bigger name.

[nhammen]

VE, a few things. 1) Your claim does not quite confirm you as town. There are alternatives. But until we have reason to believe these alternatives are in the game, I have no problem considering you confirmed town for the time being. 2) Stop arguing with Salamance over this D1 stuff. Salamance was asking Emp for reasons that he thought your statement was fake. This wasn't lining up lynches, it was checking if Empking was sincere. 3) mcqueen was trying to policy lynch the godfather. That's not a kind of bussing I've ever seen.

[nhammen]

Addendum to 1) Your play doesn't match any of the alternatives I can think of, so you do look extremely close to confirmed town.
Addendum to 2) If anyone was lining up lynches it was Empking, although I personally don't think that is what he was doing.

[nhammen]

Rofl: You're mutually voting each other and Pre is the only one voting you.
The interaction is that he only mentions your name when he votes you. He also voted a player noty voting him which in the context of the rest of his play is weird and suggests a connection with you.

or the person he was voting. But, yes. If you accept that there is a logical conclusion to be reached from Prescending's play, then 1 of rofl and sala is scum. In that case I would lean towards rofl. Sala was voting pre, while rofl didn't until the end. That's only a minor point though because it could be distancing. rofl's hammer was also a bit weird; calling pre scum without having any previous indication of thinking this, or explaining what led him to this conclusion. But I don't accept the premise in the first place.

[nhammen]

Also, we have 2 scum down on D2. Unless we completely fuck this up, town should win this. NO QUICKLYNCHES. Scum want a fast paced game with no information revealed.

I am very uncomfortable with someone being at L-2 already. Also, I would like to hear MoI's response to sala.

[nhammen]

2 scum left (possibly only 1, but at most 2). Salamence20 is at L-2. If he's quickhammered, we can figure it out.

I'm not saying 2 people should just quickhammer him, but no damage is done by him being at L-2.

My problem is that finding the last scum would essentially be random, because we have so little to go on. I don't particularly like that. But if he is scum, I don't see what else should be done instead...

MoI, I know you think this is a dumb post, but do you remember the person who posted it? Seriously could you see any scum being this stupid? Remember what you told me? Seriously a dumb post like this is something you expect from me.

MoI: stupid and scummy, stupid scum. I'm sorry, kinda figured it was implied. I'm going to start being verbatim.

Do you see what I see here?

@MoI
How am I buddying to you? I think Salamence expected you to be the kill, and said, "Oh, man, MoI died!" because he thought you died. Obviously, scum doesn't kill scum, so you would be pretty much considered town if Salamence flips scum.

And what makes that distancing as opposed to everything else that has been posted about Salamence?

What if both are town or scum? I bet you haven't thought of that yet.

Ummm... he just gave a legitimate argument for why they aren't both scum, and you quoted it... And he has never said they aren't both town. So, what was this?

[nhammen]

Just a question I had in mind for Arugula. That's all.

And why did you have that question in mind?

Gut, but he's had the exact same reaction to my current suspicions that I have had.

Agreeing with you is a towntell?

Not quoting this wall. I can say that I am actually not getting as much information from D1 as you say is available. I get some townreads from the way D1 played out, but have serious difficulties finding any scumreads. I'm not sure we can analyse the wagon the way you claim either. I have been in games in which the entire scumteam bussed D1.

I will read more tomorrow when I no longer (hopefully) have this headache, and try to determine if I can reach a scumread.

[nhammen]

nhammen, read empking's day one contributions in situ and tell me if you still think there's nothing to find from our day one

There is almost nothing to find from our D1. It is true that Empking ignored the prescending wagon, but he wasn't the only one. His interchange with sala is the only real content he had D1, but I don't see much of a problem with that, given how short D1 was. Toogeloo's only content on D1 was also an interchange with sala, which also took place during the prescending wagon, while ignoring it.

We’ve all been in games where at some point a scum was power-bussed. Can you link me to any games you have played in where one of the strongest possible scum Roles was power-bussed Day 1 by the rest of the scum-team? It's not something I can ever recall seeing myself

I was scum in NY 131, a 17p with 4 scum. Scumpartner Pine and I ended up bussing Amor, our godfather, late on D1, and he wasn't nearly as bad as prescending was here. In that game he was a deadline lynch though, which may make a difference to you. And there was still 1 scum off the wagon (which I didn't remember until looking up the votecount).

At this point, really, I don't really care if Sala is town or scum (he is actually starting to lean town based on his last posts), but his attitude, man, his attitude... He just deserves the lynch for it, to teach him something and to see if he plays the next game better.

So you say that sala is leaning town, but deserves the lynch. I find this to be very scummy.

At this point, really, I don't really care if Sala is town or scum (he is actually starting to lean town based on his last posts), but his attitude, man, his attitude... He just deserves the lynch for it, to teach him something and to see if he plays the next game better.

So you basically want to policy lynch him to do what … teach him a lesson? That’s what I am reading here. I don’t seem to recall that sort of thing working on players like Shotty or Furc in the past so why exactly are you willing to lynch someone you admit is likely Town? If you were saying he’s scummy that’s one thing but this is actually quite scummy itself.

Damn ninjas... And you even gave examples where this has failed. I feel inadequate...

That's not claiming someone "likely town" though.

Ummm... I'd like you to explain the difference between "likely town" and "leaning town" for me please.


VOTE: Toon Fighter

[nhammen]

We’ve all been in games where at some point a scum was power-bussed. Can you link me to any games you have played in where one of the strongest possible scum Roles was power-bussed Day 1 by the rest of the scum-team? It's not something I can ever recall seeing myself

I was scum in NY 131, a 17p with 4 scum. Scumpartner Pine and I ended up bussing Amor, our godfather, late on D1, and he wasn't nearly as bad as prescending was here. In that game he was a deadline lynch though, which may make a difference to you. And there was still 1 scum off the wagon (which I didn't remember until looking up the votecount).

I'm a failure. You asked for a link and I gave a description... I had opened up the game, but forgot to link it.
link

Ummm... I'd like you to explain the difference between "likely town" and "leaning town" for me please.

Toon has argued that Sal has been scummy up until a few posts before he started making some townish comments. ie. Sal was certainly scummy, but the his last few posts have given a town vibe. Hence the reason he stated he didn't care if he was scum or town anymore at that point.

This interpretation does not match what Toon said at all. But at least it is consitent with your reply to MoI. Even if you seem to be having some reading difficulties.

[nhammen]

That’s kind of my point … you can find situations where scum were bussed Day 1. You can find situations where powerful scum roles were bussed. But I’ve never seen a speed-lynch on a powerful scum role with every single partner bussing. I went through my Wiki to see if I could find a game that matches this circumstance and came up blank.

Closest thing I could come up with was Buffy Mafia where obv-scum iStark was power-bussed by both GreyICE and camn Day 1 after I busted him on page 1. He was a Goon so he doesn’t meet the PowerRole profile and it was a small game. Every other Day 1 scum lynch I found was not proliferated with partners.

I think the only way that wagon has significant scum on it is if we are in Multiball which we will not know til after a few days or another color Mafia flip.

Meh, I don't agree with this though. I can say that when I play as scum, I do not base my votes on a wagon around whether my partners are on that wagon, unless I know that a powerful town player likes your kind of VCA, in which case I do things to mess with that VCA. If I was scum, and I saw Prescending crashing hard like that, I would either have joined the wagon, or told everyone that he was obv VI and the people voting him were going for an easy lynch. I'm not sure which of those I would have done, but I can say I almost certainly would not have ignored the wagon.

No.

I am suggesting that Pres' vote on ROFL seems out of character for Pres and suggests a connection between him and Rofl

(a scum connection considering the day of the lynch and his flip) this is compounded by the fact that ROFL was the quicklyncherbut that isn't the main point.

The bolded is fluffly language garbage. Out of character? That’s meaningless drivel.

I also disagree with this, although I disagree with Empking as well on this point. For instance, if you know a player always OMGUSes as town, and this player is wagoned, and votes someone off the wagon, that is a clear scumtell, and indicates a connection to either the person he vote for, or someone that person made comments about. Emking's claim is that Prescending is "obviously" such a player. I disagree with him, but if you agree with the premise, then one of sala or rofl is probably scum. I'm somewhat concerned with why he keeps bringing up rofl, and ignoring the possibility that prescending was chainsawing. Given his premise, he should be considering that a possibility as well.

[nhammen]

Let's break this down.

#6 (Post 0): Perfectly normal RVS vote.
#29 (Post 1): Jumps the Sala wagon third with absolutely no explanation, after my initial vote, followed by Toog.
#73 (Post 2): A nice shiny fuckin Hammer Bus.
#99 (Post 3): D2 jump into IIoA, and offers a wilting vote to the will of the mob.

Jesus. Fucking. Christ.

Your comment on #73 is the only one that is actually a point, and even that is not likely at all. In effect, your case is nonexistent.

Also, Sala is almost assuredly scum.

You're right it's not IIoA, I mispoke. But I still think you stink.

I'll tell you what, let's lynch Sala and I'll let you know if I still think you're scum in the morning.

What do you think sala's alignment tells you about rofl?

[nhammen]

Sorry for being gone for 3 days. Will have a post for you in a few hours.

[nhammen]

It’s fluff since he hasn’t given any reasons WHY it is out of character. No links to games to show how the votes were ‘out of character’.

Oh, well, I agree with this, and have stated so already, although I consider it baseless rather than fluff, but thats semantics.

Me, Empking, ROFL

Im sure one is scum of this group

I'm going to ask the obvious question that nobody else seems to have asked. Why is there one scum in this group?

You answered that question in the spoiler in #308. You seriously think that one of the three of you has to be scum, because that's who the wagons are!?! There does not exist a statement extreme enough to serve as a hyperbole response to this.

I link to Presceding? What, no? I have no connections to him at all. I mean, what kind of

Vanilla Townsperson

has a relation to someone else?

Wait, did I just role-reveal. Um, whoops.

Please don't lynch me because I'm a safe lynch.

So A) You get defensive over a statement made by one player linking you to a known scum
B) You claim early with absolutely no pressure
and C) You know that this is something that is bad to do and made a joke about it.
What the aiugbfiusagdfiuogh
...
Overall, A could be scummy or playstyle, B is playstyle, and I have no idea what the heck would cause C.



------
Conclusions after reading the past 3 pages: I am very happy with my Toon vote. I will leave it here. I am not willing to move my vote to any of the three largest wagons at this time as I find a worrying possibility that they are all on town. Something in my gut says that I need to iso Velazanth, so I will do that now, to see if I agree or disagree with my gut.

[nhammen]

I disagree with my gut

[nhammen]

Nhammen:

1. What's your Read on MoI and Arugula?
2. What makes you think ROFL and Empking could both be town?
3. Why does TF seem a better lynch compared to Emp and ROFL?

1. I read MoI as Town and Arugula as null. However, I do not know if I know how MoI would behave as scum, and he strikes me (with no supporting evidence whatsoever) as the sort of player that I would read as Town even when he is scum.
2. rofls actions do not seem to be something that scum would do and Empking's play D2 seems like town Empking to me. This stuff about dodging questions seems a bit off, because who in their right mind would expect

Empking

to put that much effort into the game. I'm not too sure about either of these reads, but for now a town leaning stance is what I have.
3. Toon has repeatedly tried to lynch players for behavior that he either explicitly states is not indicative of scum or never states to be scummy. I find this to give me a scum-leaning read on him. And if I am wrong about this, then he gets to reap what he sows, because he is willing to lynch anti-town townies, which is exactly what he is if he is town. He is advocating lynches for bad reasons, and is refusing to play the game. Also, there is an element of PoE here as well.
4. Why ask me these particular questions?

I think about it, and I changed my mind, this is bullshit. Now he's ignoring me. But this his is scum meta from another game, dodging questions and the like, but seriously man, answer, or get rope.

When you say he is ignoring you what are you referring to? When you said he needs to answer MoI's question? Do you recognize what MoI's question is? Would you answer it in his place? I know I wouldn't. In fact, I was asked this question, gave one answer I knew of from a game in which I was scum, and refused to do any more research.

I don't think Sala will be successfully lynched today, so I'll go with that.

unvote; vote: PMysterious

for claiming VT without provocation.

Is that scummy? If so, why?

All but MoI are null. MoI is town. All I should say. Also, don't change the channel. I'm not as bad as Hannah Montana.

Why am I Town? Why isn’t Viscera or nhammen Town to you? Hell given that we have more dead scum than Town how do you not have at least a handful of Town reads by this point?

I agree. Even though I only have one slightly scum read, I have multiple town reads, and if I include "leaning town" reads, then I have town reads on more than half of the players. And in fact, PMyst, why do you not have a Town read on

MCQUEEN

?

Salamence, you are asking people for reads and not following up on any of it. It looks like you are fake scumhunting. Asking others for reads takes zero effort.

I somewhat agree with this. His recent behavior is striking me as slightly scummy. Especially when his pressure is on A) Empking to answer a question that he already refused to answer and B) PMyst to give reads when he had just done so (even if they are reads I disagree heavily with). It struck me as much more scummy at first, but I looked over it and decided that it could also be laziness combined with bad play. But if I was forced to choose one of the three current wagons, sala is the one I would choose.

[nhammen]

I feel that in this game the term strawman is being thrown around a lot more often than it is actually happening, but in some cases it is valid. Such as the following:

Do you have any clue Sala? I ask because the point is that Emp isn’t going to find said games (RVS power-wagons on Godfathers / Roleblockers Day 1). That’s the whole fucking point. His entire premise behind his wagon on ROFL is that it’s likely scum did that when it’s crystal fucking clear that doesn’t ever happen.

That is not AT ALL what Empking's argument is. Both Empking and myself have stated what his argument is. I highly disagree with his argument, and so did you. But his argument is what you are calling fluff, not the hammer.

1 & 2 are both circumstantial considering the day ended so quickly that most people not on the Prec lynch would appear to have ignored it. This alone makes your argument flawed as it's just as likely those of us off the wagon simply never had enough motivation to comment on it. It's just as self serving to your argument to use a short day against us when in all likelihood, town is going to miss a chance at commenting on something like that.

Um what? Let’s examine the elements of this dismissal.

1. Both are circumstantial – this is Mafia … of course the cases are ‘circumstantial’. Aside from ‘Lulz Follow the Cop’ scenarios in Mafia games all cases and evidence is circumstantial. It is looking at facts and motives in play to find who is likely scum. So using this is simply rhetoric and not applicable as a defense. In fact I could use the same argument to undercut your own stance on why ROFL is scum.

Umm, rather than argue against his wording, you might want to try arguing against his argument. In case this was not intentional, his argument is that even though Empking and Toog ignored the wagon, the day ended so fast that a lot of people didn't have a chance to respond to the wagon. The proper response is: those other players are null with regards to the wagon, but Empking, Toog, and Toon posted at a time in which they had an opportunity to place themselves on the wagon and did not do so. It is that choice that makes these players scummy. If there are other players that didn't post during the wagon, this has no relevance to the fact that these three players ignored the wagon. Magna, you can thank me for making your argument for you later.

Guys, the Empking lynch is gonna happen no matter what you do. You guys might as well help the rest of us out. I know I'm not a big fan of quick lynching, but this time, its going the distance. I mean, we already Lynched the Godfather AND we killed a Goon. What can go wrong now?

And we did not get much info out of it. And now you want the same thing to happen again... I agree that this seems quite scummy.

Claim: Jailkeeper Target: MOI.

DAMN MAFIA KILLED MoI!!!

Well, that is a possible explanation for sala's comment. What are the chances of three kills a night in a game this size?

well thats obviously a fakeclaim but whatever go ahead and lynch me today at least i can stop caring about all you idiots

I'd rather not lynch either one of you.

evidence this is Multiball

Ummm... what? If there is some evidence for this that I have missed (unless you are saying that VE is the evidence, which I would disagree with) I'd like to know, because that would make sala's statement a LOT more relevant.

[nhammen]

oooohhhhh. I see. I misread your statement.

[nhammen]

This is now the only game I am still alive in, so I will put up a post within the next few hours.

[nhammen]

Sure, lynch me. I'm a safe lynch, right? No! Its one that will tick me off. If you wanna lynch me, look into anyone that is on my wagon. Besides, I can be a meat-shield for you guys. I'll take the Mafia blow. There is no one else that can at this point. Don't lynch me and I PROMISE to help find scum.

AtE and fluff. Let's just lynch here and be done with it.

You are correct about it being AtE and fluff. Does that make him more likely to be scum?

Plus, how are YOU going to find scum when you have no reads on anyone other than MoI and Empking.

Simple. We play the game out and look for more scum tells. Eventually, we WILL kill off all scum.

You can start doing that now. You don't have to wait.

@MoI: I'm fine with a policy lynch with two dead scum and PM as a possible third scum, on Day Two. There's simply no chance of scum killing PM overnight at this rate, and we'll have to lynch him at some point before LyLo, I can see some real advantages to it this early in the game. As for Toon and Toog, both have had very opportunistic tendencies, neither were on the Prescending wagon D1, and they both have had minimal reads beyond sheeping one wagon or another (although Toog has admittedly answered more questions and been more transparent than Toon).

Regardless of whether it's policy or a scum lynch (I am more inclined to think he'll flip scum) PM is a good lynch today. Worst possible situation is he flips VT and we narrow down the pool of possible scum and a huge distraction, best possible situation is he flips scum.

I agree about most of this, and your logic seems to be that if we are wrong, it is better to be wrong about PM who is a VI than Toon. I do not agree with that, because Toon isn't even trying while PM is at least putting in effort.

Also, if PM Flips scum, Arugula is probably the last scum.

1. What happens if he flips Town?
2. Why are you so certain that we have 4 total Mafia?

1. I would probably still think Arugula is scum, probably better than TF.
2. I don't like this question, MoI. It's the same psychological bullshit Junpei pulled on me as scum. How should I know how many scum are in a Large Normal? I would say 2 goons, a RB (if empking is lying), and a GF, or possibly 2 goons, a doctor (if VE is SK), and the GF. Do I look like a guy that knows much about Role Setup?

So, Arugula is scum either way? Then why do you even mention any connection to PM? Also, MoI's question is legitimate. I have seen scum caught with this kind of thing.

My favorite lynch is PM, followed by sala, and Aragula last. Take care!

This is the type of play we can expect from you then?

Any potential vig should be on Empking tonight. No exceptions.

If this is seriously wanting Empking dead in the night after his claim, then... I have no idea what you are thinking.

Also, if the vig decides not to be on Empking, then we will be able to find him at that point. I have a big theory on who the vig is, and if he is not on Empking tonight, I'll find him tomorrow.

Ummm... VE has claimed Vig? Do you remember what has happened in this game?

salamence stop saying things continue to make you look like empking's scumpartner. stop trying to direct the vig and stop trying to direct the vig away from anyone in particular. partner tell x1000

Ummm... wait. So mcqueen directs the vig and nothing, but sala "directs the vig" and this? Why?

nhammen is

that

guy

don't like him

Meaning?


Also, I realize I have asked people questions, and I thing some people didn't respond, so later I will check previous posts of mine for those questions.

[nhammen]

Geez people. Cut me some slack. Here are my reads. Red means dead Mafia and Green means dead town.

1. mcqueen- Null
3. Toon Fighter- Scum
5. PMysterious- Town (Of course)
6. Arugula- Null
7. MagnaOfIllusion- Town
8. McStab- Null
9. Velazanth- Null
10. nhammen- Null
11. VisceraEyes- Null
12. roflcopter- Null
13. Toogeloo- Null
14. Empking- Scum
15. Tangion- Null
16. Salamence20- Null

Why so many nulls? Because I have little to no proof of their Town powers or Scum powers.

I know this is from a week ago, but why do you think Toon and Emp are scum? You never said.

What's the case against PM? I just read him in iso and I don't think he's even leaning. Of course, I'm open to hearing a counter-point to that, but his play has been consistent and his posts have been logical.

He's not acting like a VI though. And it's starting to smell scummy.

That was a quick change of heart. Could be because someone else stated what the case was though, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt, even though something in the back of my mind is telling me over and over again to vote you NOW.

too town to be town.

Nevermind.
VOTE: Velazanth
Describe what you think looks "too town to be town".

[nhammen]

According to the ruleset, I think it is Friday.

[nhammen]

I will put my vote back on Toon if this doesn't go anywhere. And if Toon doesn't go anywhere, I will be OK with a PM lynch.

[nhammen]

Deadline should be 3 weeks after Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:12 pm.

Thus, Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:12 pm

[nhammen]

Very VI. Difficult to determine alignment.