NY 151: Playground Mafia (Game Over-Mafia Win!)

[maxwell]

Just picked up my PM now. I need to do a full readthrough of the thread which will probably take at least a day, I don't like making summary posts but I will post a list of reads once I'm fully caught up.

[maxwell]

sorry for my inactivity, I've been busier than I thought I would be but I'm going to at least get some partial reading in tonight and post content.

[maxwell]

I've read the posts on this day, skimmed some ISOs of the leading wagons but can't do more as my eyes are getting heavy.

FakeGod > kdowns > fallman, in terms of lynches I support right now based on limited information.

FakeGod's voting has been pretty blatantly opportunistic, and I don't see any real attempts to scumhunt from him, just dropping votes while occasionally giving weak defenses of players.

kdowns is similar in the lack of even pretending to be doing something, and the player he replaced was scummier than the player fakegod replaced, but missing that pine is dead seems vaguely townie - like it's a stupid uneducated guess, rather than a premeditated statement.

I thought junpei's reaction to pressure was screamingly obvious town, and I don't like how the wagon is going on him. Feels lazy. Can elaborate on this.

LLD

- why do you want to want to lynch fallman before he's even had a chance to catch up? Granted, I get the feeling he's not going to be useful at all, but I don't see the need to rush things.

fakegod is most likely to get a vote from me when i'm up on everything, too tired to get through right now though.

[maxwell]

his only vote was on benmage and it was justified with him "overreacting" and "trying to lead town", the second of which is a personal peeve of mine that tends to get thrown out by clueless scum.

Granted, I haven't actually read benmage to see the posts in question he's referring to, so I might change my mind, but as it is the way macros made his points was scummy in and of itself.

[maxwell]

Holy Fuck I'm not doing this deadline lynch bullshit again.

Junpei was scum.

Fallman CLAIMED SCUM IN HIS FIRST POST. THAT POST ONLY HAS SCUM MOTIVATION. SURVIVALISM IS A SCUM MOTIVATED PLAY.

HE DIDN'T SAY "LET ME SCUM HUNT". HE EXPLICTLY SAID HE WOULDN'T!

WE ARE LYNCHING FALLMAN TODAY. I WON'T LET SCUM DERAIL THIS LYNCH!

He's pretty blatantly a dumb newbie and you're driving this way too hard on far too simplistic terms.

You think the slot is town but you'd support the lynch?!?

Bad wording on my part. I don't support the lynch but it is one of the leading wagons. I suppose I'd support it over no-lynching or lynching myself, but that's it.

Shottyiszik/Maxwell - Useless. Maxwell what about the rest of us? Why you isolating yourself to three nobodies.

Are you dense? I specifically said I've only read part of the thread right now and felt it was most pertinent to comment on the leading wagons. I have reads, but they're all gut from the last few pages and I don't have enough information right now to post an independent case, so would you rather I just lurk until I'm up to speed?

[maxwell]

Sort of caught up with the game though admittedly my reads aren't in great detail.

not sure what to make of benmage at this point, the post people are voting him for is bad but comes across as somewhat more condescending and sarcastic than I think people are reading it. His defense also looks bad to me but the stangercoug/code_x/fakegod votes on his wagon give me pause.

OGML - what are your reasons for voting hez? saying he has 'connections' to LLD is entirely too vague especially seeing as he's one of my town reads right now.

Reading psyche/andrew/fakegod/code x/strangercoug as scum right now. Think DLG has given me a townread on the slot formerly occupied by kdowns. Psyche just generally seems to be dodging having any real input. andrew maintains a scumread on me based on LLD supposedly distancing me but keeps a vote on OGML for reasons that aren't expalined beyond firestarter being scummy (which I don't agree with, don't see how people could see firestarter as much other than a null read). Overall, just feels contrived in most of his reasoning. Fakegod I already covered, lurky yet somehow shows up to make sure his vote is parked on a leading wagon. Code/SC are weaker reads, mainly feel like their reasoning is flimsy in a lot of places. So, all that said

VOTE: andrew94

would readily change my vote to psyche or fakegod if those are more viable.

townreads this game for me are stonger than my scumreads, reading DLG, Hez, redFF, and Maxous as town, also think TML is town based on his claim. Not going to elaborate on them unless it's necessary.

[maxwell]

Pretty sure I'm voting the SK right now. Just saying.

[maxwell]

What's that supposed to mean?

[maxwell]

That's my point - serial killers are usually NK immune, he's claiming a shot for last night but none of the other nights. I know he replaced scooby, is he going to claim scooby just didn't shoot on either night prior? Do I need to spell this out any more? The claim stinks in a big way and I'm completely willing to take the fall on this if he's town. If you guys want to play direct the SK you can try that but I don't think that sort of strategy works well, ever, especially not at this stage in the game.

[maxwell]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: FakeGod

fine with this vote for reasons earlier stated. Decidedly opportunistic voting pattern.

[maxwell]

Ahhh, nothing like replacing into a game 100+ pages long.
...anyone care to recap? JUST KIDDING! I`LL NOW DO A POST BY POST ANAL`! Stay tuned as this will take a fucking long time.

full claim please, before you re-read

[maxwell]

Mostly. Why?

[maxwell]

My vote is not doing any good on hez right now. If anyone wants to get a real wagon going on him though, I'm your man.

Unvote, Vote: FakeGod

Could also go for redFF, but again, not without a real wagon.

You keep prod-dodging and promising reads. If you don't explain your reasoning for voting hez in your next post with so much as a single sentence, I'm voting you.

Responding to benmage in next post.

[maxwell]

Head's not really in this game. Apologies. Hard to parse things and harder to articulate how I feel.

@benmage -

Scum Reads:
FakeGod - lurky yet still opportunistic. keeps up votes despite not following the thread.
Psyche - minimal contribution and less than genuine in his posts. town-psyche is earnest and tries to be helpful where i'm not seeing that here.
StrangerCoug - called me scum in #2581 when he was buddying up to andrew and now has reversed his read for reasons I can't understand. Also find his reasonings behind scum-reads thin at best.

Town Reads:
HezLucky - reads as genuine in his contributions even if he's not on the mark all the time, seems like he really believes what he's saying
RedFF - he's pretty useless and not very bright but he's showing a consistency and an attitude I don't see him taking as scum where he doesn't really care much about what people think of him
DLG - kind of an easy one because claimed cop innocent report on him makes him very unlikely to be scum but read him as town regardless based on the way he was analyzing the thread, didn't come off as BSing it

blah. wish I could say more but every time I try to read someone in ISO it makes my head hurt.

[maxwell]

VOTE: maxwell

I feel that he is the most likely to be scum, so I'd really like a wagon on him.

Just ISO him or read what I've already said about him. His latest post of "If you don't do this I'll vote for you" is not genuine scumhunting at all, because it's not actually considering whether it makes him likely scum or not, and if anything, it's the opposite of what he should be doing. Also gives him an excuse to hop onto the wagon rather than awkwardly hang around not knowing what to do.

This is completely off base and you're missing the first part of my post where I say he's promising content, not delivering, and can't justify his scum-read when I asked him to do so when it should be a simple thing. I don't really understand the reaoning of most of the votes on him (though benmage's does make sense looking at it) but it's hard for me to ignore how he's been posting recently.

[maxwell]

No, he was screamingly obvious town, sorry you're too fucking incompetent at this game to be able to read him or me correctly. Having a stong town-read on the person being lynched isn't a scumtell and neither is calling someone on dodging posting content, which is what I did. As for the LLD thing, I can't help it if he chose to attack me for my vote, I get people's reactions to that but at that point I think he was just trying to force the lynch through by getting people to think scum were the ones resisting, which means he wanted to avoid one of the counter-wagons - and since kdowns/DLG is town, that leaves FakeGod. Hmmm. The sum total of your case against me is reading someone as town and threatening to vote someone for making scummy posts and ignoring what others have asked of them. You're going to have to do better than that. A lot better.

[maxwell]

Yeah, that vote is pretty much terrible especially considering this

FakeGod and maxwell are likely scum either way. I'd have to take a closer look at Maxous and HezLucky's interactions with OhGodMyLife to be able to answer the question about them, but I have a weaker town read on HezLucky than on Maxous.

UNVOTE: Benmage
VOTE: OhGodMyLife

[maxwell]

No, you're actually stupid and unbearable to read with your anti-logic. Genuinely.

[maxwell]

StrangerCoug, you're still pointedly ignoring me pointing out that your read on me has done a 180 without explanation.

[maxwell]

No, but in this case it does and I'm about to mentally file you away with redFF under the "ignore" pool if you're going to keep operating on a different plane of thought from everyone else. One more time, though: I say OGML is stalling on delivering content and that I will vote him if he continues to stall. The implication here is that he's scum who can't justify his opinions (wait, where else have I seen this?). This is apparently "the wrong reason" to vote someone, according to you. Do I have that right?

[maxwell]

Oh cool, amateur psychology mafia theory, a thing I love to see. That has to be one of the worst arguments I've seen put forth in a game ever. It's not too hard for someone to try to justify their suspicions if they're town because it's just what they feel, even if they're unable to properly articulate it they can at least try to explain it where scum are more concerned about convincing people and saying the right thing so as to not appear suspicious. I'm done with you, hopefully the vig decides to take you out because you're not operating on the same plane of reality as anyone else.

[maxwell]

Fakegod, why didn't you claim when RedFF claimed doc?

At this point I find it terribly hard to believe that there'd be both a doctor and a weak doctor in the setup given the other flipped roles and claimed roles. Reads say RedFF is more likely town, so the vote stays. Will re-read ISOs tomorrow morning to try and affirm my thoughts.

[maxwell]

Re-reading some things. Waiting to see what Psyche has to say before I vote. Sorry for being prod-dodgish I just don't want to say too much at this point in time.

[maxwell]

Not incredibly solid on psyche being town but he's at least attempting to put forward something to this game now though I don't really agree with his vote. At this point given his inconsistencies yesterday I think SC is the best vote for today. Would actually prefer to be investigated tonight as I think I'd be more useful this game if I'm cleared.

VOTE: StrangerCoug

[maxwell]

VOTE: HezLucky

He's the SK. I'm an FBI Agent, investigated him last night. This is why I was averse to saying much yesterday - I didn't want to risk drawing the shot from him.

Full list of actions is as follows, with my reasoning for mine:

N1 - shotty checks nero cain - Not Guilty
N2 - shotty didn't send in an action because he's worthless
N3 - I check DLG - Not Guilty (I decided to pick a random player who hadn't posted much after I replaced in, not much else I could do)
N4 - I check VisMaior - Not Guilty (a stupid check, in hindsight - but he claim of being strongman was too odd)
N5 - I check HezLucky - Guilty (I was secretly reconsidering my read on him yesterday - he clearly wasn't mafia but the general indifference he showed to who was lynched seemed more likely to come from an SK)

[maxwell]

I'm an FBI agent - I only get a guilty result on players that are the SK - which means I'm assuming Rach would get an innocent result on him or else my role would be kind of pointless.

[maxwell]

yes, I specifically only get a guilty result on an SK.

FBI_Agent

[maxwell]

@ Maxwell

Why would you check a player that my predecessor TML already stated in his cop claim was not guilty?

TML didn't claim cop until D4. I sent in my investigation on DLG N3.

[maxwell]

Im debating believing this.... at worse it gives maxwell... 1 day of survival. At best it gives us another cleared townie.

Vote Hezzlucky

(Im pissed I didn't PM PV last night that I feared being Nk'd by Hezz whom I epiphanized was the SK.. purely for BA points)

If I were scum lying it wouldn't even give me another day, it would just get me shot by the real SK. And I'm not that stupid.

[maxwell]

I won't really be confirmed town here - just confirmed role. I think Benmage is almost certainly town at this point, he'd basically have to have a deathwish to derail the psyche wagon yesterday to bus SC and then risk getting offed by the SK. Which means it's pretty much between Code_X and Maxous anyway. Shouldn't be hard.

[maxwell]

So I'm lying, but I'm right...lol.

[maxwell]

Intent to hammer.

Let Rach post reads.

[maxwell]

That was obviously me addressing things according to him. Not lying, if he flips with "Investigation Immune" in his role name, feel free to lynch me, but it won't happen because if he were investigation immune I wouldn't have been able to catch him, regardless of alignment.

[maxwell]

Trying to save yourself is a pretty good reason to lie, actually.

[maxwell]

Fine with this. it's one or the other, interactions with LLD point a little more toward Maxous.

VOTE: Maxous

[maxwell]

I'm not sure I understand why Benmage was killed. Granted, this was going to be my vote anyway.

VOTE: code_x

Too tired to make an argument tonight, will sleep on it, post more tomorrow.

[maxwell]

Psyche, it doesn't really matter with the timing of the vote, you and DLG are cleared with the godfather dead as I don't think any mod would put 2 godfathers in a setup.

The fact is, Maxous's flip should effectively clear me - I'm confirmed not to be a scum rolecop now, and if he had the information, he shouldn't have been able to pass it along.

The point about Hez's flip is reaching - sometimes mods show SK abilities, sometimes they don't. NY146 just had the flip as 'serial killer', so did NY118. Regardless, it doesn't matter because the FBI agent role is geared toward detecting serial killers while the cop traditionally finds mafia. It's a flavor-based thing, like seers finding werewolves and gunsmiths detecting roles that are considered to carry a firearm. Regardless, if this was supposed to be a point against me, he should have pushed it yesterday, but he didn't. Why? Because scum knew it was MYLO, town didn't. he had to play it safe, see which way the wind blew - if the lynch swung towards me, great, but if he got caught trying to redirect the maxous lynch he'd be sunk. The fact that he only brings it up now and not yesterday is why he's scum. In fact, it explains a lot over the past few days.

DLG, I see no reason mafia wouldn't shoot redFF - they needed to kill him to kill the cop, who was the biggest threat to them.

[maxwell]

No, wait, that's it - I SHOULD BE CONFIRMED TOWN HERE. Maxous was the rolecop, so I'm not. Boom.

But I'm not confirmed town because me and code are the only two alive that aren't cleared. Why? Because Benmage is dead.

Think about it - if Benmage were alive today, it almost certainly would have been him vs code, and I'd be considered effectively clear. And I think anyone would have voted code in a scenario that was him vs. benmage. There is no way he would have won that one.

That's why benmage is dead. It forces me into consideration against code_x, instead of benmage, and he sees me as the better target. That's it. It makes so much sense.

[maxwell]

I'm working on a case. It'll take a few days given the size of the game, though. Please be patient.

[maxwell]

Should have a case in two days. Sorry for taking so long but it's a long, convoluted game.

[maxwell]

Sorry for taking so long, this game is somewhat tedious unfortunately. going to do a breakdown of partner interactions first, the post on ninja/code will have to come tomorrow as i'm dead tired tonight.

Firestarter:

In ISO 3 he drops a town read on NihilisticNinja, using the same reasoning as on LLD, which is weak and not elaborated on. He elaborates more on his town-read on Kublai Khan, who was actually town.

Basically no content from him afterwards or from OGML, so nothing much else there.


Jason:

this interests me, while NNinja may have been reaction fishing, this screams off look at me, I voted you, why you no comment!!

NihilisticNinja - I had a town feeling I believe earlier, but seems to have drifted out of this game

can't decide whether to call him scum or town but never fully commits to a read either way

Fakegod is useless for content.


Strangercoug:

GreyICE has no mention of NN/code.

#140: I'm starting to see a redFF-Nero Cain connection here. Both want drmyshottyizsik policy lynched and neither are doing anything to convince anybody that he's actually scum, with Nero Cain trying to shift burden onto NihilisticNinja and redFF trying to stifle discussion.

chainsaw defense of NN here.

in post #2037 he votes code for incomprehensible reasons relating to him not posting cases, then after one brief exchange where he's incredibly soft with him, unvotes, calling it a "pressure vote". This is fairly blatantly distancing from him while not really attacking him, and then never makes mention of code, at all, for the rest of his time in the game.

Maxous:

never, ever, once states a real read on nihilisticninja.

First mention of code is here:

Code X is scummy too, posting a lot but not saying a lot. Reading through his walls, it is a lot of commentary...not much meat to it.
Even his player by player post said surprisingly little.
I'm trying to work out the tl;dr of his case on red but it seems to only consist of 'well, he ignored questions'

Which would make him look town, except there's never any real follow-through on that, only some weak questioning, then he defends him slightly in #1705 when redFF asks about him.

Then suddenly later in the game on day 5, he starts saying code is townish, with the only explanation given being that his "D4 play read as town". This list here clinches it - we were on a day with 5 town, 3 scum, and an SK - suddenly the scum need to try to go for the mislynch, as there's a chance they can win the game then, or if not, narrow things down considerably. Thing is, in this situation, scum have a narrow number of mislynches left to them - it'd be virtual suicide for him to write off both benmage and code as twon if they both were, it leaves him without enough people to lynch to win. The closeness to endgame is a big factor in other things, as well, which i'll get to in another post.

LLD:

states Ninja is "obvtown" several times. Doesn't explain this. It's just providing a general sentiment so that people are less inclined to suspect ninja, but not justifying it in any way that might be incriminating.

Then code replaces in, and she calls one of his votes bad, and then ignores him for near 60 more posts, basically dropping him out of the picture when there was no reason to.

This all points to classical partner avoidance, really - scum are simply more likely to talk about their partners less because they want to avoid drawing attention to themselves.

[maxwell]

Im debating believing this.... at worse it gives maxwell... 1 day of survival. At best it gives us another cleared townie.

Vote Hezzlucky

(Im pissed I didn't PM PV last night that I feared being Nk'd by Hezz whom I epiphanized was the SK.. purely for BA points)

If I were scum lying it wouldn't even give me another day, it would just get me shot by the real SK. And I'm not that stupid.

Could you explain the thought behind this more thoroughly?

It's very important that you make sense.

Okay. If I were to fake-guilty a random townie as scum to get them mislynched, the SK is just going to kill me on that night since I'm confirmed scum. That's really all there is to the thought.

[maxwell]

FakeGod was a predictable lynch though.

If we're all in agreement that Maxwell is town as I say it will be simple.

Albeit, I'm not convinced yet on his innocence.

If you want to lynch me before Maxous then fine. Though I'd prefer it the other way around.

I don't know quite what to make of this.

We were at 4 v 2, at the time, although everyone seemed to think it was 5 v 1.

Would scum!Code_X throw himself in front of his buddy Maxous's lynch? A Code_X scum flip would just place an extra burden of suspicion on Maxous.

Would Town!Code_X be willing to die instead of Maxous, there? I can actually see this, especially if he believed that it was 5 v 1.

AAAARRRGGGHHHH!

UNVOTE: Code_X

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Being self-sacrific is townish in early game, in the late game it just seems off. But regardless, There's a pretty good reason for him to suggest the possibility of him getting lynched befoe maxous - he knew Maxous was flipping MAFIA ROLECOP and that maxous's chances of winning solo were better than his.

Going through NN/Code ISOs tonight.

[maxwell]

RE: NN/code interactions

no mention of jason. slight stated town reads on maxous/LLD. They do call out firestarter at the end of their ISO, but it's not done forcefully - "Anyone care to join me?" is going for a passive vote rather than an active one. They also flake from the game before they have a chance to respond to anything, so it doesn't mean too much.

Then, here's the kicker, code replaces in, unvotes, and avoids saying much negative about firestarter.

take a look at this reads list on him replacing in:

4. FakeGod jasonT1981 - Jason struck me as scummy. FakeGod has done nothing.
5. Firestarter - Must re-read. Think again he got picked on somewhat
20. Lady Lambdadelta - Aggressive townish. Does like to take a stance, warming too.
22. Maxous - Need to review but didn't move from Psyche
24. GreyICE Praetyre - Praetyre nothing. ICE no real read

3/5 of those are nothing reads, LLD was universally seen as town, and fakegod was essentially the designated bus target for scum, and a safe one at that.

Breaking it down by member:

LLD - barely mentions/interacts with her until she's dead

Fakegod - calls him scummy a lot, but never votes him until the wagon really takes off.

Firestarter/OGML - #1222 "[pine's] vote on Firestarter today reads like lazy."

Then, he defends him again in #1362 - dismiissing redFF's scumread on him as "lurker'absent" Which is followed up with voting red for "not being productive" which is pretty ironic given the circumstances as well as his push later to just lynch any lurker, all of which are conveniently town

Because I agree with his reads ...

Well apart from Firestarter/OGML who I think is town.

Fakegod - Where's he gone? Another who says Junpei/Fallman is town. Say FakeGod who is scum here? Like you have a vote on Nero but yet to explain. Let's hear it.

Of the rest LLD, Hez - despite there continued push/tunneling against Fallman I think it's coming from a town view. Though I'm keeping an open mind with both.

Maxous and Nero probably give me the best townish feeling. Mastin meh. OGML I have no interest in lynching.

StrangerCoug - seems to be trying to get under a fair few people's skin but he's null.

this is covering all of them, but again he's avoiding lynching OGML and just questions fakegod rather than really pressuring him.

Code_X: What do you think of LLD's reason for wanting a Fallman lynch?

It's better than your case against OGML. It's a more viable lynch.

Junpei made several scummy posts - disputed Drmyshotgun for one. Fallman has essentially flaked/cannot be bothered.

And yeah I can live with a Fallman lynch.

VOTE: Fallman7

speaks for itself.

Then LLD gets shot, and day 2 he does an about face on OGML, does vote him on the basis of LLD defending him, but that's about it, there's no real drive there as much as it was sheeping with andrew94, who people didn't want to piss off. But then, page 103, the moment the fakegod wagon becomes a viable counter, he hops to that to protect the roleblocker. And then there's this, later in the day.

I've got no beef with OGML lynching today.

But, what I don't like is how Andrew is trying to direct the town.

I'll say again Andrew. Why did you claim when you did? There was no reason to. Even if you believe we should lynch OGML - claiming wouldn't help your case. I just find it strange.

Speaks for itself, really. This is similar to how to SC tried to find a way to get off the OGML wagon


Breaking down SC/Maxous next, this post is already fairly long.

[maxwell]

Fine with this. it's one or the other, interactions with LLD point a little more toward Maxous.

VOTE: Maxous

Day 7 - why do you think Maxwell completely ignores me?

He knows Maxous is scum 100%. A townie would consider me surely before voting Maxous.

Terrible argument. I thought we had a mislynch, and I ctrl+F'd scum ISOs to look for clues, decided he was scummier. Just because I didn't feel the need to elaborate on my thought process doesn't mean it was there. Your hesitance that day is what gives you away.

[maxwell]

Okay. Look at the numbers on day 5. It's 5/3/1. This is a make or break day for scum - if they can get a town mislynched, then it goes into night with 2 kills. In the best case scenario, the SK has shitty aim and they win instantly. but if he hits scum it's still 3/2/1 the next day and scum are virtually guaranteed a win

But if scum bus, they suddenly make their odds significantly worse since the cop is getting an investigation which is going to either catch one of them or limit the number of possible mislynxhes they have and for scum at endgame that's a suicide squeeze - not to mention the risk of getting shot by the SK in the night if they bus, leaving them with virtually no chance of winning

So, if I were scum in that scenario, and I suspected Hez of being the SK, why the hell would I bus in that scenario when I know he thought I was scum and I'd just risk him shooting me that night?

Look at code's reaction to that wagon:

@ Benmage. I'm not ignoring SC - but I need to Iso him and the dead scums and their interactions with Praetyre and GreyIce also before even considering voting him. There should be no rush for anyone to hammer or end the day yet. So allow me 24 hours to at least look at him.

This is his only comment on it - HIS ONLY ONE. Try to find mention of Maxous on day 5 from Code, as well - you won't find any. he was going for the mislynch. Yesterday, it's a similar scenario - he didn't want to lynch maxous, that is why he waited as long as absolutely possible to vote him, despite suggesting he was potentially scum way way way back in post #2559 (and then ignoring him for nearly 40 posts). He knew Maxous's flip would leave him in trouble which is why he suggested the possibility of him getting lynched first, TOWN DOES NOT OFFER THEMSELF FOR THE LYNCH IN ENDGAME.

Sorry for taking so long on this, it's just that I have trouble presenting my ideas in an organized format but really the past few days should make it pretty clear

[maxwell]

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Being self-sacrific is townish in early game, in the late game it just seems off. But regardless, There's a pretty good reason for him to suggest the possibility of him getting lynched befoe maxous - he knew Maxous was flipping MAFIA ROLECOP and that maxous's chances of winning solo were better than his.

My point is that from scum!Code_X's point of view, it's a stupid gambit. Suppose we had lynched Code_X, then, and he flipped scum, and the game wasn't over, like it wasn't. Is there any way Maxous survives the fall out from that? It's patently clear that Maxous would have had to die. It just doesn't make any sense.

By that time in the game, there was no difference between scum RoleCop and Goon. All of the PR's had been killed except maybe you.

It was 4 v 2. All scum needed was one single mislynch for the win. For Maxous to distance from you does have advantages, though. He did it without voting for you. That leaves us in the dilemma we now have.

Maxous didn't even get to post that day. And I still don't follow your logic with regard to the lynch. Which do you think is more winnable for the scumteam: having maxous as the dead rolecop, or having code as the dead goon, leaving me as a potential lolscumrolecop suspect. I think between the two moves he did what was more plausible. There hasn't even been a plausible argument as to how I could know the SK if Maxous hadn't rolecopped him, or how that could have been found out.

[maxwell]

It benefits the SK to shoot scum always, but regardless, there's really no way of knowing who gets shot by the SK overnight - there's a risk of losing a mafia member every night while the SK is alive which means that bussing at that juncture would be a terrible move because it risks potential auto-loss for scum and I'm not stupid - I don't bus into auto-loss, especially when the cop suggests they want to investigate me.

[maxwell]

Maxwell why did you kill Benmage ahead of two confirmed innocents?

I wouldn't have. Simple as. I'd shoot DLG, leave psyche alive - suddenly today becomes you vs. benmage because with Maxous flipping rolecop and psyche being clear there is no way in hell I would get lynched.

[maxwell]

suddenly today becomes you vs. benmage because with Maxous flipping rolecop and psyche being clear there is no way in hell I would get lynched.

You have an incredibly high opinion of yourself.

Yeah, because I would think that it would be apparent enough that I'm town. What's with the sniping?

[maxwell]

I think I'm town because my fucking role PM says I'm town. this is a stupid argument. Will answer questions from psyche/DLG from now on but neither of us are going to convince the other they're scum so it's a waste of time.

[maxwell]

Actually no, okay, I have one good question I just thought of, might as well ask - how was my role claim "botched" from your point of view?

[maxwell]

You're trying to use a sarcastic comment I made in response to the SK as evidence against me in lylo. I am dumbfounded.

[maxwell]

I explained that already. Killing him makes more sense from you than it does from me. You can't just dismiss my claim without a real argument.

Please note the emotional appeals code's resorted to using.

[maxwell]

You think he wouldn't reconsider after the flip and NK? Sort of like what you're doing?

I'm trying to parse what you're asking here - I don't think there's been an argument given as to how I'd figure out the SK as a goon? I just checked, and maxous never voted or mentioned or suspected hez, so that's not possible, so what then? daytalk isn't standard in most minis and with a 6 person scumteam would probably be overpowered. I don't know why I'm trying to think of possibilities that could make me scum here, but i'm not sure how to answer what you are asking.

[maxwell]

If I was scummier than him why not just have him claim it? I'm a poor scum player, have a losing record as scum and would have a big disadvantage from having replaced in instead of having been in the game from the start.

I admit that your theory is plausible, but I can't do anything about it. So forget the claim, then. It doesn't clear me (although I thought it did and it took this long for any sort of theory on how it could be done as scum) so look at everything else. It doesn't change code holding out on scum lynches in lategame hoping for an alternate wagon. It doesn't change that I've tried to be logical in my reasoning and honest in my actions so read that. Look at the big picture.

[maxwell]

I didn't read the thread all day, and it's not my style to squirm, because I don't like to get super emotional in games. Because if I get pissed I don't enjoy the game and neither does anyone else. Also, when I replace into a game I'm usually pretty detached. But you're making a mistake. And I'd like it if you'd be a little more transparent in your thought process because I hate blind votes by clears on lylo, it is actually frustrating to have no idea if what you're saying is even getting through to the other person or not.

The benmage kill is a frame-job at best and you need to see that - regardless of his read on me, he'd be forced to reconsider for lylo, and there would be a clear alive as well, who probably wouldn't vote me. The fact that Code is cherry-picking everything negative benmage said about me whilst ignoring the places where he reconsiders. I mean, just consider, please, a hypothetical endgame where I shot DLG as scum - do you think you would stop to consider me as scum in that scenario? I don't. If I was that confident in my claim, why force myself into a 1v1 instead of creating a false dichotomy? Conversely, benmage was THE BEST POSSIBLE KILL CODE COULD HAVE MADE. Take out the pro-town but uncleared player, and suddenly people wonder if something is up and start to panic and he could easily just stick his hand up his dead butt and work him like a puppet to incriminate me.

With regard to the amount of town power - This setup could have potentially ended by Night 3 (4 deaths per day/night phase, 24 players, 6 mafia). That means in a worst case scenario town only has 2 mislynches which means a lot of power is necessary in order to potentially catch scum/stop nightkills because there's so much that can go wrong. 1 FBI agent is actually pretty unlikely to make a huge difference, because the odds of scanning the SK are so low, and there are so many deaths he's unlikely to get a large number of clears for endgame. Any argument about setup balance is pretty silly because FBI agent is only a minor power role - probably weaker than any of the other ones in this setup.

[maxwell]

Looking for an emotional response on a forum where responses can be planned, prepared and edited is pretty flawed

plus I've played enough mafia to know you're reaction testing me which means I'm not going to react as severely because I can't force it. Just the unfortunate reality.

[maxwell]

Yes, the scumteam clearly killed off everyone who suspected drmyshottyizsik, because they really wanted to protect him because he was so useful.

Furthermore, how do you know those were scumteam kills and not SK kills? Did you just slip up on having inside information?

[maxwell]

You implied they were since you were suggesting them as reasons for me being scum. Don't try to play games.

[maxwell]

Okay. Antihero having correct reads on other scum team members doesn't mean he was right on shotty. They killed him for his other scumreads being correct, most likely. Nero Cain was tunneling FG, called me "nullish", I did not read a single post made by mastin and don't intend to. What makes you assume DV was shot over the claimed vigilante? For all we know, the vig shot DV for his awful posting at the end of the day.

This is all just reaching, every time I've played as scum, the entire reasoning for who they kill basically amounts to "who can we not lynch", but you're attempting to link nightkills like the entire team was dead-set on protecting me and not, say, one of the scum power roles. That I replaced in and immediately grabbed the reins, directing every move the team made to maximally benefit myself, when I hit the ground running and was struggling to keep up. It's garbage.

[maxwell]

I'm not proud of how I played this game.

[maxwell]

I bussed too much and was generally pretty lousy, just a mildly clever fakeclaim that kept me in the game. Felt like I owed it to my teammates (some of them, anyway...) not to fail. (btw, that theory about maxous coding his results? dead on, although personally i already thought one of hez/benmage was the SK simply based on kill patterns) the amount of town power felt absolutely brutal by day 4/5, though.

and really benmage dying should have been a big red flag. WIFOM is overrated, kill the people most likely to vote you.

thought DV had a guilty result on me for sure

was surprised by hez shooting redFF there, not sure why he went for a kill the scumteam was guaranteed to make, the even numbers made things a lot harder for me.

Anyway still not really proud of how I played, I made this account to try to play more logically/analytically but I simply can't adapt to that sort of style as town or scum, was uncomfortable posting, missed opportunities to lynch benmage and psyche and generally took the path of least resistance for most of the game. Probably just going to use this account for modding games now.

go team regardless, glad I could win it for them in spite of everything.

pe: code_x, i actually didn't read most of your posts on lylo but I thought you had me dead to rights with regards to how SC acted around my slot, it wasn't until you got weird/cocky and started taunting me that I felt like you might get voted - that sort of stuff doesn't really mean much but people see it as scummy because you come across as overconfident.

Or maybe it's the scary clown avatar - it inspires distrust.

[maxwell]

And you know for Andrew to come in shoot the Godfather at night and then name the scum team is incredibly suspect, whether he pleads his innocence or not regards the IP addresses. I'd be pretty riled if I was scum in that situation also so can understand LLD's reaction totally.

I thought the whole thing was incredibly messed up but tried to avoid dwelling on it and hoped that it wouldn't screw the game up. Was a pretty big gut-check when I'd just replaced in and was complacent about actually reading the thread. I was posting semi-blind day 3, meaning I really only remembered LLD from my PM and was just making stuff up with regard to everyone else - this is a band and dumb thing to do. Please pay attention to your scumbuddies, everyone!

[maxwell]

Him postulating that OGML was a scum PR is pretty god damn suspect, although I come from epicmafia, where cheating is practically the norm, so.

[maxwell]

No Nero, it's against the rules, they just do it anyway because when you can get a 20x20 .png of a trophy on your profile for winning at mafia, people suddenly feel the need to cheat like crazy. I came here to get away from that. Crazy world.

it's okay, psyche. it's okay. it happens.

[maxwell]

The FakeGod lynch on day4 required 8 to lynch. 4 of those were mafia. I wonder how things might have been different if FakeGod hadn't been bussed. This would have been even more relevant had town won.

It is worth noting that by the end of the day we were desperate to keep OGML alive for at least one more night - it ended up not mattering because rach's investigation target died that night anyway, but the possibility of another cop investigation going through scared me a lot, and probably the rest of the team as well.

But yeah, I should have voted benmage earlier that day rather than trying to avoid the wagon, lesson learned, etc

[maxwell]

I just feel like I didn't play the game I wanted to play even if I did end up winning.