NY 154: Return to Boring Town - Game Over

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hi I'm your upgrade to Bunnylover! I'll be looking over the few pages we have and getting some thoughts down in the coming hours!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I seriously think the reason why Arugula is voting me is.. well, none. There is no in-game relevance for Arugula's vote against me. I really have nothing more to say.

Well my question to you has to do with Prescending’s vote then. Even if Arugula’s vote had not reason Pres was pushing as if he had a valid reason to do so. A problem I have with this response is you don’t even look sideways at Pres.

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Vote: Prescending for being stupid.

Kai I have an issue with this - you are voting him for being stupid not scummy?

Domo Arigato, Sala.

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Vote: Pine

For too much sexy.

Oh, and also not confirming nor posting.

Oh so you decided to just ignore everything that went on so far? Could you at least pretend on an Alt to actually read the game and pay attention for once? That way you could for once look like someone actually special!

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I'm waiting for Prescending's response before I move my vote.

Because Prescending is scummy.

So he’s already scummy to you but you want to see him respond before you vote?

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It did actually, I would expect scum to get defensive, I already voted him and told him I was being serious. He answered genuinely.

So you expect scum to get defensive when pressured …

Yeah someone named mcqueen really intimidates me.

Oh look … defensive fluff!

This sucks. Mcqueen sucks. This game sucks. Arugula's follow-up statement about PM literally gave me a headache. Step up your game or I'll replace out.

Oh crap … I’ve got some pressure … quick let’s pretend everyone else sucks!

VOTE: Prescending

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey all ... I see Nocman didn't pass on my weekend LA status I pmed him about.

I'm LA with family duties (like every weekend) so you will have to wait for a comprehensive post til at least Sunday sometime. In the meantime I'll say that Sala's "You killed MOI you bastards" is something I don't think I can let go as it would be a stupid post as scum but an even dumber post as Town. I do not subscribe to "Too Dumb for Scum" and I cannot believe the explanation given. I'm not going to vote him immediately ... give me 48 more hours please.

One other thing stuck out at me in my quick scan ...

Also, if/when Salamence flips scum, MoI is conftown.

I hate buddying. It makes me itch. Especially coming from someone I found suspect when reading Day 1. Salamance flips scum and this is a pretty blatant distancing job IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I managed to scrape together some time to really parse what little we have ..

First thing I want to parse out is the Day 1 lynch. A power-lynch like that on what is a pretty powerful scum role is information heavy. Especially when we see that both deaths at Night came from on the wagon. Given that Shattered’s death is clearly not Town sourced we can assume scum aren’t uncomfortable about narrowing down the possible bussers / distancers on the wagon. With one scum flip already there (IAI) unless we are running Multiball (and this is an important consideration … more why later) the odds that more than 1 more Mafia are on the wagon are slim at best unless the Mafia numbers at least 5 players. Too little incentive to bus that hard in a Large game IMO. Until I see evidence that confirms this is Multiball or strong evidence we have a Serial Killer I'm not voting on the wagon today.

I don’t really think lynching on the wagon probably is the best play today. For me that means that I don’t want Sala lynched today. If we had to lynch on the wagon I’d suggest Arugula. Vicsera can certain ventilate either Sala or Arugula (if I am parsing his claim right) at Night if he wants. In fact for other reasons that’s probably the best route to take. That also means Arugula (who I will get into later) is probably off the table. He’s be my number 1 lynch on the wagon if we go that way.

So that leaves a pool of Empking / Velaz / Toog / Tangion / Toon / McStab and PMyst as where I want to look heavily into today.

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So PMyst … let’s discuss Post 90. It’s a whole lot of IIoA fluff in that you basically state a whole bunch of things that are

A. Already known and
B. Not alignment relevant at all.

Who is scum? It’s not hard to read Day 1 given the short length.

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Vote: ROFL

I don't like Precending's interaction with Rofl in his last post. The VC as it is is also eyebrow rising.

I agree that Sala's early posts today are wierd he was one of my main town reads yesterday and I'm not willing to throw that way.

For the moment I’m placing my vote with you Empking. You completely ignored the Precending wagon as it was in pretty good swing. Yet now you are looking for the scum on the wagon when we already have one of those dead.

VOTE: Empking

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MoI, I know you think this is a dumb post, but do you remember the person who posted it? Seriously could you see any scum being this stupid? Remember what you told me? Seriously a dumb post like this is something you expect from me

Which way to do you want to play it Sal? Are you only dumb like this as Town?

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@MoI
How am I buddying to you? I think Salamence expected you to be the kill, and said, "Oh, man, MoI died!" because he thought you died. Obviously, scum doesn't kill scum, so you would be pretty much considered town if Salamence flips scum.

It’s buddying because frankly you’ve concocted a scenario that as Town you shouldn’t have considered an A equals B scenario. Why would I be confirmed Town in the set-up? This is a Large Game. It’s certainly not out of the question for the possibility of two Mafia groups or a Mafia and Serial Killer. We’ve only had 1 single Day of kills and I can certainly point you to a game that had a Mafia and Serial Killer and didn’t ever have a Day of multiple deaths. No reason to immediately suggest a kill wasn’t blocked.

Yet you are certain that Sala being scum means I’m confirmed Town. Only way to be that absolutely certain is to be a member of a Large Scum team that made you fairly confident we aren’t in Multiball and that the likelihood of a Serial Killer is small. Thus I think you are scum.

Furthermore I’d like to point out some posts from Day 1 …

Replace out then. My follow up statement was clear, and you are retarded if it gave you a headache. Mcqueen doesn't suck and neither does this game. You do though, for having an attitude like that.

This occurs after Prec scum-plodes all over the thread. Note he doesn’t vote him. He asks him to follow through on his replace-out threat. I can certainly see scum watching their Godfather implode on Page 2 urging him to go for the replacement halo.

I'm waiting for Prescending's response before I move my vote.

Because Prescending is scummy.

Why was he waiting to move his vote if Prescending was scummy? Hoping that Presc will make a recovery and post well enough to avoid moving his vote is what I am parsing these as.

Well, it looks like Prescending isn't responding yet, so

UNVOTE: PMysterious
VOTE: Prescending

Reads pretty clear to me as “Well, this wagon isn’t going away gotta bus after all”

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well MoI, I would probably say I would be more careful of my posts if I was actually scum, but since i have yet to be scum, I really don't know what to expect from scumsala. Town Sala is more reckless on posting.

Again, if I was scum, I would probably lurk more and double (triple) check my posts as scum.

See I don’t understand why you would post this and expect it to be convincing at all? You’ve already expressed that you get more negative attention for your play than you should. Regardless of whether you want to build a Town meta of “reckless, shoot from the hip” Sala it clearly isn’t helping you when you are Town. No point in not doing basic fact-checking like who actually died before you post. You basically are saying "Hell as scum I'd be careful and have a bright shining arrow of change of behavior pointing my way but I don't want to play as effectively as possible when Town".

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Is there some reason why there can't be more than one scum on the Precending wagon?

Direct evidence that ROFL’s comment about you being the King of the Strawman is quite accurate. I never said there couldn’t be more scum on the wagon. If you had read my whole post instead of grabbing only the part that directly applied to you it would have been clear that I think Arugula is the most likely scum still on the wagon.

How many scum do you think there are? Do you think more of them bussed than not? Because we have equal numbers flipped from both on and off the wagon and fewer unflipped off the wagon.

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Get your ass off Empking, he is one of the top "third party votes," per se, how I used that phrase in my other post. He's not even scummy, he's just being, well... Empking.

Um, no. He is being scummy. He completely ignored the Presc wagon when he was posting Day 1. While not everyone not voting Presc it isn’t scum he didn’t even fit to comment at all and his “I wasn’t counting votes” stance doesn’t make sense. It was pretty clear Presc was scummy and getting attention for it.

Besides the Salamence20 wagon, only about 1 other wagon is legit, and not a "third party vote wagon." To be honest, I prefer everyone shut up with calling out "third party votes" scummy, and either engage in discussion about a legit wagon, or we can just bandwagon one of the legit wagons. I have no interest in reading long as hell posts, cough cough MagnaOfIllusion cough cough, who only end up making a dopey, shit vote.

Life must be tough for you. I really don’t care if you want to continue to cry about ‘Reading is hard’ but you aren’t going to dissuade me from scum-hunting with half-asses threats.

Now, I'm not saying -- for example -- Empking couldn't be scum, but I've heard no legit arguement that convinces me he could be, therefore, I at least would like to avoid lynching him for today. Note how I don't necessarily have a townread on him, either, but I'd rather not lynch him.

Oh really? You just spent three rather pointless sentances calling saying he isn’t scummy and is a “third party vote”, whatever the fuck that is. Furthermore why are you so worried about him getting scrutiny when you don’t even ‘necessarily’ have Town read on him?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI: what is your read on me?

Null leaning Town. Your play Day 1 around Presc was fairly Town. Hell had you not dropped the dumbest post in thread by raging against my death I'd call you fully Town. I don't want to vote you today as Day 1 doesn't look like bussing. But that post just screams "Flubbed inside info" and I'm still deciding whether you could as Town make that post.

Meanwhile what do you think of Empking?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't know what the bit in bold means.

I think there are possibly one or two mafia left. (To be honest, 17 is a really ugly number where it's hard to see how either could be balanced.) I really don't think it's possible to make an accurate judgement of whether scum will be most on, off or evens stevens.

The bolded was pretty clear. We have two flipped scum, one on the Presc wagon (IAI) and one off the wagon (Presc himself). If you think we only have one more scum left you can't seriously think that in a 17 person game both partners bussed the Godfather Day 1. If you think we have two scum left then the only way you can justify for a lynch on the wagon is if you have overwhelming evidence that the person there is scum. Because it's pretty ludicrous to suggest all three scum would bus a Godfather Day 1. Thus at worst we have a 1 / 1 split in a 4 Man hypo team.

If you think this the case we have the following -

Alive Off Wagon (7) - Empking, Velazanth, Toogeloo, Tangion, Toon Fighter, McStab, PMysterious
Alive On Wagon (7) - mcqueen, nhammen, VisceraEyes, Salamance20, MagnaOfIllusion, Arugula, roflcopter

There are an equal number of living players left from on the wagon than off. You yourself being off means you statistically have a better chance of catching scum by hunting off the wagon than on if you buy a 1-1 split. This is before you actually apply reads.

I myself look at the group On versus Off and think odds greatly favor scum being in the Off wagon since my Town reads are all on the wagon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It is ludicrous to suggest IAI bussed Pres without severely twisting and simplifying the concept of bussing. So yes we're agree that there wasn't a unanimous bus against Pres that doesn't mean that there wasn't unanimous voting for Pres.

Oh look let’s play semantics lawyer and maybe I can argue about what ‘bussing’.

Fact – IAI voted Presc and kept it there until he was lynched. That’s a bus. Whether it was an effective bus or not can be argued (and the fact he got killed N1 indicates not) but saying “You are twisting the definition of bussing” is just absurd.

Oh, I’m glad you want to float the concept that all other scum were voting Presc. Because it’s ludicrous at this stage to say "Hmmm ... I think there are only 3 scum and the first thing they did Day 1 is for both non-Godfather scum to bus their Godfather in 3 pages".

1. Do you think that it's best to leave the wagonners for now or that it really is impossible for scum to vote their Godfather D1 after another scum has already done so? ("ludicrous" & "can't be serious" suggest the former but that might simply be hyperbole.)
2. Do you think we should base our reads on the idea that scum knew Pres would be lynched page 3 (Not suggesting you suggested that I'm asking a question.)

1. Are you reading the thread at all? I’ve already given you all this information. I think the best bet for another scum on Presc is Arugula. I’d rather lynch off the wagon as I think odds are greatly in favor that more scum were there than on the wagon. You are scum off the wagon. If Arugula isn’t Vigged eventually I think his lynch will need to happen.
2. I think players should be basing their reads on what happened in thread. For example – you completely ignored the wagon on scum. Which is behavior I would expect from scum seeing their Godfather wagonned early in hopes that it would blow over.

Now some questions / items for you to address –

1. What purpose do all these rather empty questions serve for you? Are you trying to show I am scum?
2. Please summarize your personal case on Sala as scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, who would you lynch today off the wagon?

Insert face-palm pic here ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI
You are right. You could be third party, but I have not been in a game with a third party yet and the thought didn't cross my mind. Still, calling you town if Salamence is scum is not buddying, no matter what you say. The fact you are so adamant about the possibility of a third party makes me think you might be third party.

Why didn’t it cross your mind that a third-party could exist in the game? Furthermore why are you still discounting any possibility of Multi-scum?

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Im not sure about any of these wagons. Im not confident in my reads to vote Empking. I would prefer rofl over empking today anyways.

Only wagons i would go for is TF or PM.

Again, whats the win condition for a SK?

What changed in under 25 posts to remove Rofl from your list? Why PMyst?

And to clarify Toon’s answer – the usual win condition of a Serial Killer is something along the lines of “Being the last player alive, or when nothing can prevent this from happening”. That’s a more accurate representation of the Serial Killer wincon.

MoI: could I get a link to a finished scum game please.

Here you go – Completed Scum Game

Now tell me … what is that going to tell you? I’d like your detailed reasons for asking for it as opposed to doing the legwork yourself.

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geez, stop soft threatening me and just vote. I don't like that attitude, you just keep pinching away at people and don't take a stand. If you want to see me being lynched, at least vote me

This post made towards Sala (who you are voting) doesn’t read to me as someone addressing scum …

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Not quoting this wall. I can say that I am actually not getting as much information from D1 as you say is available. I get some townreads from the way D1 played out, but have serious difficulties finding any scumreads. I'm not sure we can analyse the wagon the way you claim either. I have been in games in which the entire scumteam bussed D1.

We’ve all been in games where at some point a scum was power-bussed. Can you link me to any games you have played in where one of the strongest possible scum Roles was power-bussed Day 1 by the rest of the scum-team? It's not something I can ever recall seeing myself ...

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Toon Fighter played very intermittently as he is now as my Mason Partner in another game long ago. He was a rather useless lump even as confirmed. This is my second game with him, and he is exhibiting the same behavior. This makes me sad.

He also played that way as Mafia in Mina’s Crushing Independent Thought Large Normal so it isn’t alignment indicative.

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MOI: If you don't mean that IAI was bussing then don't use the word bussing. It's not playing semantics if you refuse to say what you mean. If you want to say "It's absurd that three players would vote Pres by page three" then say that, I can't read minds. Now I would say that is incorrect and I suggest that you look at the page three vote count. You may want to say "It's absurd that three scum players would vote Pres by page three" then say that, I can't read minds. I would disagree saying that there is no logical justification for presuming that any given scum will base their Prescending votes based on their fellow scumbags votes or at least no justification for them being disincentivised to vote Pres.

Again … I’ve clearly said IAI did bus Presc since he wagonned him to lynch. You are the one making it a terminology issue when my usage was reasonable and accurate.

I don’t think that with only three scum members in a 17 person game that both partners would power-bus their Godfather. That’s pretty much kills any chance they have of achieving a Win given the raw number of mislynches that would have to happen, nevermind that a Cop / Doc combo pretty much means Game Over via strong PoE. If you think there are only three scum (and I know you said maybe 3 maybe 4) you shouldn’t be looking on the wagon.

To my mind same goes for a 4 member scum team. The only way I see that looking on-wagon for scum is good play for today is if the scum team started with 5 members (which seems excessive but is set-up dependant). So again – I don’t think your focus on making sure to lynch from on the wagon with very, very weak reasoning is indicative of a Town Role PM.

The statement "It is absurd that all three scum would bus their Godfather straight out of the gate" is reasonable. The statement "It's absurd that three scum players would vote Pres by page three" is not. If you're forced to twist words and the truth to get your position to stand up to scrutiny then it isn't a good position.

No what’s absurd is that your are trying to somehow suggest both sentences above are not equivalent given the game-state.

Is that a yes or a no?

It’s neither. It’s an answer to your question that is very clear. Again you are worrying about making arguments based on semantics (You didn’t specifically answer Yes or No) as opposed to actually dealing with the information presented.

1. I am trying to understand your position.

Part of me wants to say something like “Is that a Yes or a No?” to be a smart-ass. But let’s deal with your answer … I think my position is very clear. I’m not for lynching Sala for what is either a dumb slip or dumb post (depending on him being Scum or Town respectively) when his Day 1 vote and play don’t read as scum to me and we have a claimed Vig who can chose to solve that problem. What about that is hard to understand and with it clearly stated how does the question aid in getting a read (since you keep calling me Nullish).

So let’s get to the reasoning for voting Rofl … you are suggesting he was late to the wagon and thus scum, correct?

Why shouldn’t I be looking at the players who ignored the wagon completely? Why is that not a possible scum motivated play?

[MagnaofIllusion]

GAAAH just lynch sala already. If you THINK I should be lynched, you should VOTE me. YOU are at L-2, and likely to be lynched. The other wagons aren't getting steam. You just play too softly! Fight your lynch, provoke people, VOTE for someone! Even if you end up getting lynched, at least you know you've tried your best. If you don't even vote ME now (or anyone else for that matter) I doubt you'll last long in ANY game in this website. FIGHT for your life, being scum or town.

And another post that doesn't read as Toon addressing an actual scum suspect ...

Why would you care if Scum-Sala rolled over and died if you are Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point, really, I don't really care if Sala is town or scum (he is actually starting to lean town based on his last posts), but his attitude, man, his attitude... He just deserves the lynch for it, to teach him something and to see if he plays the next game better.

So you basically want to policy lynch him to do what … teach him a lesson? That’s what I am reading here. I don’t seem to recall that sort of thing working on players like Shotty or Furc in the past so why exactly are you willing to lynch someone you admit is likely Town? If you were saying he’s scummy that’s one thing but this is actually quite scummy itself.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point, really, I don't really care if Sala is town or scum (

he is actually starting to lean town based on his last posts

), but his attitude, man, his attitude... He just deserves the lynch for it, to teach him something and to see if he plays the next game better.

So Toog ... does bolding help with your reading?

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's not claiming someone "likely town" though.

So you wish to play the Empking semantics game also? Granting you 100% that the use of likely is not an exact analouge for leaning what about my point was invalid?

Is Toon not saying he wants to lynch someone as punishment to improve their play even though he currently thinks they are more likely by some margin no matter how small to be Town than Scum?

I'd like your thoughts on that Toog.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MagnaOfIllusion - No.

Ok I see the level of useful you are going to be. Noted.

For the record – stop whining about Walls. This is a game based on written material. Reading isn’t a hardship.

I don't care if you think I have an ulterior motive, his wagon is bullshit. And it's not because we have the same alignment, or different alignments, from either point of view, it's still a bullshit wagon (unless we are different alignments, it would be to one's advantage to continue or stop the wagon, for scum-town and town-scum respectively, but I'm not looking at it that way).

Just saying something is bullshit isn’t going to get the job done. Either explain why it isn’t a good wagon

with solid reasoning

or stop just throwing rhetoric around as a substitute. And my definition of solid reasoning does not include "the lynch would give us lots of information" if you aren't willing to say how.

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PM and MoI: Current reads on McQueen and TF please.

McQueen is likely Town given his Day 1 player around Presc. He may be going out of his way to be “Tough” but that doesn’t change my read.

Toon I’d say is leaning scum currently. I’d consider voting him today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sala cannot be allowed to endgame.

We already have 2 Mafia dead and a claimed Vig. Why are you worrying about him making it to endgame (and by this I assume you mean LYLO ) with these facts?

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Vel's right though. Scum, knowing their power is under heavy scrutiny and a very likely lynch, will try to be on the lynch to gain town cred and distance themselves from someone dead in the water.

So like Empking your theory is that scum would power-bus their Godfather on Page 2/3? When early game wagons rarely complete?

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What would you say the chances of McQueen/Prescending scumbuddies.

Very low. Lower than the odds of you and Presc being partners.

Why we are talking – please explain to me why McStab is not listed on your reads list at Post 234?

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There is almost nothing to find from our D1. It is true that Empking ignored the prescending wagon, but he wasn't the only one. His interchange with sala is the only real content he had D1, but I don't see much of a problem with that, given how short D1 was. Toogeloo's only content on D1 was also an interchange with sala, which also took place during the prescending wagon, while ignoring it.

Yes, but that’s a reason to be suspect of Toog also, not a reason to not be suspect of Empking.

I was scum in NY 131, a 17p with 4 scum. Scumpartner Pine and I ended up bussing Amor, our godfather, late on D1, and he wasn't nearly as bad as prescending was here. In that game he was a deadline lynch though, which may make a difference to you. And there was still 1 scum off the wagon (which I didn't remember until looking up the votecount).

That’s kind of my point … you can find situations where scum were bussed Day 1. You can find situations where powerful scum roles were bussed. But I’ve never seen a speed-lynch on a powerful scum role with every single partner bussing. I went through my Wiki to see if I could find a game that matches this circumstance and came up blank.

Closest thing I could come up with was Buffy Mafia where obv-scum iStark was power-bussed by both GreyICE and camn Day 1 after I busted him on page 1. He was a Goon so he doesn’t meet the PowerRole profile and it was a small game. Every other Day 1 scum lynch I found was not proliferated with partners.

I think the only way that wagon has significant scum on it is if we are in Multiball which we will not know til after a few days or another color Mafia flip.

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MOI: You may think your position is clear but that's because you literally can read your mind. The rest of us have to get by on your posts and your refusals to clarify means that any argument of your's that involves others strawmanning or playing the semantic game are complete bupkis.

Actually you seem to be the only player who has any issue with the clarity of my stances. So no, your responses very much still strike me as scummy.

No.

I am suggesting that Pres' vote on ROFL seems out of character for Pres and suggests a connection between him and Rofl

(a scum connection considering the day of the lynch and his flip) this is compounded by the fact that ROFL was the quicklyncherbut that isn't the main point.

The bolded is fluffly language garbage. Out of character? That’s meaningless drivel.

Rofl hammering Prescing isn’t a scum-tell. Suggesting otherwise is scummy.

1. Because narrowing your suspect pool with a really weak tell (at best) is an inefficient way of doing it. f you chose a random pool of players to call suspects you'd probably be more accurate. There simply wasn't enough posts in the day for people to not ignore other people.

We can argue the strength of the tell in question (you and others completely ignoring the Presc wagon) all day long. The fact remains that your stance that scum are more likely to be bussing a Day 3 power-lynch on a Godfather is scummy. It doesn’t reflect the realities of how Mafia is played. You argument reads as contrived solely for your own defense as opposed to based on actual scum-hunting theory.

1. Why would it be? I don't get what scum stand to gain from not throwing in their two cents.
2. Scum are more likely to notice when a Godfather keeps on getting votes. Town is more likely to miss it.

RVS style wagons on players are pretty damn common. And very rarely do they go through, especially on scum. Scum certainly have every reason to hope that per the usual an early wagon (which in this case wasn’t really RVS and was actually based on scumminess) would disappate when ‘cooler heads’ prevailed.

What is the point of number 2. Scum of course are going to notice a wagon on their Godfather. They are also going to do whatever they feel is the best route to not letting it go through on Page 3. This includes pushing in another direction and ignoring it as 'Lulz, chucklewagon'.

Nothing in these responses is anything other than “Well Town wouldn’t do that because I did it and I’m Town” which is circular referencing garbage.

Vote stays.

[MagnaofIllusion]

HEY VELANZANTH – WHY ARE YOU IGNORING QUESTIONS?

I put this bold and right at the top so you couldn’t possible miss it. I don’t like being ignored. Answer the following –

We already have 2 Mafia dead and a claimed Vig. Why are you worrying about him making it to endgame (and by this I assume you mean LYLO ) with these facts?

The him in question is of course Sala.

Also …

Yes, actually. And let me tell you why. The day after I make a post I come back to the thread to find us locked into night already. I missed out on the entire wagon, and had I been involved in discussion, he probably would have been gone much sooner.

What is this? Rofl is scum for not asking for a claim (and not extending the day) but had you been on you would have lynched him faster?

Please explain how this isn’t Cognitive Dissonance?

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Are you trying to get yourself lynched?

Look active lurking fluff! If we do have scum left on the wagon (which would require a bunch of scum IMO) it’s this guy.

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No it isn't. You know it isn't since "Out of character" is a common phrase in life as well as mafia.

Yes, it is. Whether it is a ‘common phrase’ in real life is meaningless to the discussion. If you could link me to occurences of someone other than you using it here on MS do so because I don’t recall it being common at all.

Finally … it’s fluff since you don’t seem to be demonstrating why it is out of character.

Are you drunk? The reasoning you're to me isn't even circular it's simply nonsense. (Oh I'm playing sermantics by objecting to your pretending an argument is circular when it isn't.)

No, it isn’t. You are stating an opinion that isn’t factual in the context of Mafiascum. I believe the only reason you are doing it is you have to since you yourself ignored the wagon on Presc.

Let's use an analogy:
If bald men are 1/5th less likely to die in a fire than the average AND people in fires are 10 times more likely to die in a fire than average. Then is a bald man in a fire more or less likely to die in a fire than average? If you focus on the bald part then less; this gives you an inaccurate answer.

Let's unanalogise it:
If players on the Pres wagon are 1/5th less to be scum than the average AND people with connections to dead scum are 10 times more likely to be scum. Then is a wagonner with a Pres connection more likely to be scum than average? If you focus on the wagon part then less; this gives you an inaccurate answer.

Look, two complete paragraphs of babble. This is meaningless throwing of words. Why are you trying to use concocted analogies? Is it because you know you can’t demonstrate support for your stance?

Go fetch me every Day 1 Godfather lynch you can find on MS. Link them and we can analyze

1. How many were PowerWagons at the start of Day.
2. How many had significant bussing (aka all the non-Godfathers).

This is a pretty simple task. Get to it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow the days seem to be going by to fast I need to do a more in depth read through

What happened to that read you said you were going to do?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be LA from 4:30pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties

@Empking

– Since you haven’t done it yet I’m altering my request to you to find Godfathers who were Power-bussed Day 1 to also include Roleblockers (as they are pretty powerful to scum also) to give you an even wider range of possible lynches to collect.

--

This guy needs to die and when he flips scum me and empking are town

And what if he flips Town. You both still can be scum, right? [/off sarcasm]

Seriously you can’t have been attacking that sort of logic when it applies to you and then turn around and try to use it on someone else.

Are you scum Sala? Am I giving you too much Newb credit?

--

A. I'm not. And at this point I won't be shocked when he flips scum. His play is incredibly spontaneous, and it reeks of newbie. But since I don't get to pull the trigger, I can only point out what a fantastic lynch candidate he is. Tangentially related, I have my own thoughts about the D2 Vig claim that I don't want to share with the class just yet.

1. Again … why is he scum for being a spontaneous Newb? If you are suggesting it’s basically a straight policy lynch due to the nice lead we have that’s one thing but I’ve yet to see anything about Sala’s play (other than the ‘slip’ which I’m still not sold on) that says “I’m scum”
2. Um, whut? You have a theory but don’t think it wise to share?

#6 (Post 0): Perfectly normal RVS vote.
#29 (Post 1): Jumps the Sala wagon third with absolutely no explanation, after my initial vote, followed by Toog.
#73 (Post 2): A nice shiny fuckin Hammer Bus.
#99 (Post 3): D2 jump into IIoA, and offers a wilting vote to the will of the mob.

Let’s examine –

Post 6 you admit isn’t anything out of the ordinary.
Post 29 – so what? Are you saying every vote that isn’t RVS that is not accompanied by an explanation is scummy? If so Town is doomed this game since they are in the minority.
Post 73 – This is stupid. I’m not going to sugar coat it. There is no scum motivation to hammer your Godfather without letting him claim. None. Indicating intent to hammer (standard play on MS) and letting Presc claim would have allowed Presc to fake-claim Cop or whatever role he chose in a fishing expedition. Scum have every reason to let their partners get a claim out. And you can’t argue that it was for Town credit since the reaction to it has been “Rofl is scum”. So no … this point is stupid and remains so.
Post 99 – You’ve already admitted you improperly attacked this post as IIoA.

I don’t see much in this case convinces me he’s Scum.

--

@MoI
Not everything I do is scummy. I don't know why you have a vendetta against me this game, but you are wrong so stop tunneling my posts.

I’m scum hunting Arugula. I don’t see why you find it so odd that I find your post suspicious. If there is a scum vote on Presc left I’m pretty sure it is yours. You hemed and hawed voting him and hopped on when it was clear he wasn’t going to come in and answer for his posts. Your posts don’t reflect scum-hunting (you dropped a vote on Sala for his slip and have active lurked while defending yourself the rest of today).

If Sala isn’t scum who is?

--

Meh, I don't agree with this though. I can say that when I play as scum, I do not base my votes on a wagon around whether my partners are on that wagon, unless I know that a powerful town player likes your kind of VCA, in which case I do things to mess with that VCA.

Well at this point we are going to have to agree to disagree then.

I also disagree with this, although I disagree with Empking as well on this point. For instance, if you know a player always OMGUSes as town, and this player is wagoned, and votes someone off the wagon, that is a clear scumtell, and indicates a connection to either the person he vote for, or someone that person made comments about. Emking's claim is that Prescending is "obviously" such a player.

I think you are reading into this a little bit personally. It’s fluff since he hasn’t given any reasons WHY it is out of character. No links to games to show how the votes were ‘out of character’.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I am certain ROFL is scum, theres no way we are both scum.

Get off the Empking wagon for now, i tell you he seems townish.

MoI, do you think we can both be town? (ROFL and me)

Why are you certain Rofl is scum? I've yet to see anything compelling myself to that end.

Why do you think Empking seems Townish other than him calling you Town?

Absolutely both of you can be Town. You are both on the Pres wagon. Only way I would consider you both as scum is if it is Multiball (unproven at this stage).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Me, Empking, ROFL

Im sure one is scum of this group, and i am voting the best canidate.

I feel a town vs town argument from you and empking.

This doesn't answer the most important part of the questions I asked.

WHY is Rofl scum?
WHY is Empking Town?

Give me something concrete to hang my hat on. Or just come clean and say 'GUT' if that is what it is so I know where you are coming from.

[MagnaofIllusion]

XFD ... why? ...why do you keep saying stuff like this.

Why do you keep active lurking and not scum-hunting?

[MagnaofIllusion]

We can't all post walls.

You apparently can't post any significant content at all? Why are you playing again?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's no secret you've never liked the way I play, so why do you keep bringing it up every game?

I have a vested interest in having active Town with me in the game. It reduces the places for scum to hide in non-contributors and makes it easier to hunt scum via assessing dayplay. You may say "I play differently" but frankly I don't care. Llamarble put it best - Town has the best chance to win when they as a whole are active, engaged and don't let bad lynches go through due to apathy. I will continue to call out each and every player who doesn't play that way in every game I play in.

After Cyclical 2 where you ended up advocating your own lynch as you didn't want to be a LYLO game loser due to your aformentioned playstyle I don't see why you are bothering to argue that you should not be active.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I link to Presceding? What, no? I have no connections to him at all. I mean, what kind of Vanilla Townsperson has a relation to someone else?

Wait, did I just role-reveal. Um, whoops.

Please don't lynch me because I'm a safe lynch.

So you are pointless claiming (and being cheeky while doing it) for what reason? What scum-hunting can come out of this post?

--

anti prod

yes, I'm lurking

no I have nothing further to add for now. expect a post tomorrow

And look … that post never came. Add Toonfighter to my list of acceptable lynches today.

--

MoI, good buddy and pal, you were in a finished game with PM, is this true or not?

Ummmm why are you calling me buddy? You know I am allergic to buddying. I break out in hives and the only cure is lynching the person …

PMyst did claim earlier than necessary in Open 425. It wasn’t like this claim in that he actually did have votes and was a possible lynch candidate when he did so.

Since you’ve already looked at his games why ask me to confirm something you just said you knew he did?

--

Vote: roflcopter

Add Toog to my acceptable lynches pile. Scummy lack of content plus scummy terrible vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Call me crazy, but ignoring questions Seems scummy to me.

So then why is Empking not scum for ignoring my request to show me Godfather / Roleblocker Day 1 lynches with powerbussing?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Did I ignore it? 'm pretty sure I responded to the post where you made that request.

Nope you didn't ... at least not in a way that wasn't ignoring. "yay" isn't a response it is something that Homer Simpson says when he sees donuts.

I'll just consider you can't provide any examples to support your position and thus know ducking actually addressing my point is they way you hoped to escape being called out further for your scummy stance.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Or it is something that Homer Simpson says in response to seeing donuts. Look when you're so unable to see the facts that you consider a quote and response as "ignoring" is it really worth my time trying to provide the evidence for you? No, no it isn't.

Keep dodging and straw-manning Emp! It will make the votes pile up faster.

You have not said anything about my request that wasn't three letters. Yes, that is ignoring. Why haven't you posted even one example to point at and say "See it does happen"? At this point I think it pretty clear your "Scum were all Powerbussing Presc and we are lynching on the wagon" has been shown to be completely wrong and scummy.

How many partners do you have left Emp?

[MagnaofIllusion]

PMyst is either a Troll-alt or a quasi-trolling VI. No other explanation for his actions of late. Note that neither of those is alignment exclusive …

--

I have never said scum were all bussing Presc.

May Iask how many letters it take for a response to be a response?

On the first point – you’ve already conjectured there are only 1 or 2 Mafia left. Given you are trying to lynch on the wagon today under the 3 total Mafia theory you believe all the scum were bussing. If you don’t think they were all bussing and you think there are 4 total Mafia you haven’t defended logically why you are insistent on lynching on the wagon that power-lynched the Godfather.

The second portion is a pure strawman … you are focusing on semantics of “what quantifies as a response” when the heart of the matter is that you ignored the call to provide links that support your “Scum Powerbus their Godfather” theory.

Continue to be obv-scum Emp!

--

Is bolded a threat, a promise, or a noob warning? /semi-sarcasm.

I was kind of hoping I could get a second opinion on PM's claim, since you played with him, does it seem somewhat scummy to you or not?

It’s all three Sala. Overt buddying is not Pro-Town and in the past when I have found players buddying to me it tends to come from scum. Remember … there is a difference between having a Town read on someone and agreeing and buddying.

PM’s claim is Null to me. Early claims of any sort tend to come from either alignment I have found. JasonT1981 for example has a proclivity to claim early as Town and knows this. He tends to try to claim early as scum just for that reason.

Early VT claims on site tend to come from Town but in the current meta I’m not inclined to simply giving PM a Town read simply for that fact.

Sorry MoI, (or am I?) I'm not defending Empking, and I am not siding with you today. ROFL needs to die, if you want me to vote my semi-town read, help me lynch ROFL, who has been pushing Emp's lynch.

Why exactly would you expect me to vote for ROFL (who I think is Town) especially given he is on the wagon I think is on scum?

--

I...I don't even.

Hey look, yet some more active lurking fluff!

--

All but MoI are null. MoI is town. All I should say. Also, don't change the channel. I'm not as bad as Hannah Montana.

Why am I Town? Why isn’t Viscera or nhammen Town to you? Hell given that we have more dead scum than Town how do you not have at least a handful of Town reads by this point?

[MagnaofIllusion]

This day just keeps going around in circles. You people realize we have 2 dead scum out of 3 dead players, right? Just lynch someone that's going to give us info for Day 3 and let's move on... Boring Town is Boring.

Salamence20 - 1( Arugula)
roflcopter - 3(Empking, Tangion, Velazanth, Toogeloo)
Empking - 5(roflcopter, MagnaOfIllusion, VisceraEyes, PMysterious, Salamence20)
MagnaOfIllusion - 1(mcqueen)
ToonFighter - 1 (nhammen)
PMysterious - 2(McStab, Toon Fighter)

Not Voting - 0()

So what exactly is your reason for complaining when you have your vote parked on a bad not-viable wagon again?

--

Ohai town! Gosh, I really wish we could get a hammer all up on Empking.

This …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nhammen... mcqueen... those are votes on non-viable wagons. Up until last page, rofl was the leading lynchee, and he still has four votes to empking's five.

I don't believe emp is scum though, nor do I really feel his lynch would be informative.

Then you were just complaining to complain then? ROFL isn't a good lynch. He's Town in almost all likelyhood and I've yet to see anything close to a compelling case as to why not.

How is ROFL's lynch any more informative than Empkings?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am complaining, yes. That doesn't mean we should just up and lynch anyone though. Empking is being voted solely because he wasn't on Prec's wagon and he disagrees with your plan to only lynch peiple not on that wagon. I agree with Emp that your rationale behind that does.not give us any information and you coul likely hit scum just as easily on the wagon. In fact, I would argue it's more likely scum would jump on at the end of the wagon to appear more town.

I don' t think scum anticipated losing another member during the evening, so they wouldn't be scared of bussing a super scummy member knowing that it would at least give them a little town cred. Rofl's hammer accomplishes both a chance to gain cred and end the day early, which makes him the better candidate. He's also received the most resistance to wagon today. Empking has no connections and he has an opinion which you disagree with, which is really the only thing you have argued with him against all day and tried to paint as scummy.

Well let's address what I find wrong with this ...

1. Let's be clear ... the reason Empking is being wagonned is that he actively ignored Presc and the Presc wagon. It's not simply that he wasn't on the wagon ... it's that he actively ignored it. There is a difference between this and "not being on the wagon" (which applies to many others).
2. Your argument that "scum were more likely to jump on late" is a self-serving and flawed argument. Similar to Empking you didn't address Pres and now are arguing that scum are more likely to be bussing than not when it is pretty clear early / RVS wagons rarely go to lynch and they don't go to lynch on scum important Power-roles.
3. Your 'scum didn't anticipate losing a member' is a straw-man. Of course scum probably didn't anticipate that. That fact has nothing to do with motivations for anyone.
4. Your "ROFL did it for Town credit" argument is invalid since he's clearly not gotten tons of Town credit (given he got significant votes today) for hammering Presc and it would have been much more beneficial for him as scum to allow Presc to claim and draw out a Town Powerrole.
5. Saying that there hasn't been significant resistance to lynching Emp is ludicrous.

You keep also dodging the question about why ROFL's wagon is more 'informative'. Arguing that Empking doesn't have links is invalid. We've got plenty of links established by today's play. If you had reasons why ROFL is more informative other than "Toog says so".

[MagnaofIllusion]

What if MoI is possible scum defending his scumbuddy?

So you are thinking that the following is true …

There are at least 4 total Mafia scum. 3 (IAI, MoI, ROFL) all power-bussed a fourth member.

Am I seeing this right?

@Empking: Well if it was me, I would of told MoI to fuck off, I'm not going game searching for something so hard to find, but thats just me. Ignoring questions is a scum-tell for me, but (I guess) I can see exceptions...

Hey MoI, find me 2 games with such a condition, it's not like you have been doing much lately other than attacking people for being on ROFL's wagon.

Derp. That’s all I can say. DERP in All Caps.

Do you have any clue Sala? I ask because the point is that Emp isn’t going to find said games (RVS power-wagons on Godfathers / Roleblockers Day 1). That’s the whole fucking point. His entire premise behind his wagon on ROFL is that it’s likely scum did that when it’s crystal fucking clear that doesn’t ever happen.

Also, tell me what what information we get from such lynches today:

Sala flips scum
Sala flips town

Empking flips scum
Empking flips town

ROFL flips scum
ROFL flips town.

Sala / Emp / ROFL flip scum – we have links to examine to see who defended those players agains lynch.

Sala / Emp / ROFL flip Town – we can examine the quality of the arguments and votes made against said players to hopefully find scum.

Now some questions to you Sala

–

Why do you think there MUST be scum in yourself / Empking / ROFL?
If Empking and ROFL both flip Town should we immediately lynch you?
What are your reads on the following players – Arugula, Velaz, Toog, McStab Toon Fighter? Why are your reads such?

[MagnaofIllusion]

1 & 2 are both circumstantial considering the day ended so quickly that most people not on the Prec lynch would appear to have ignored it. This alone makes your argument flawed as it's just as likely those of us off the wagon simply never had enough motivation to comment on it. It's just as self serving to your argument to use a short day against us when in all likelihood, town is going to miss a chance at commenting on something like that.

Um what? Let’s examine the elements of this dismissal.

1. Both are circumstantial – this is Mafia … of course the cases are ‘circumstantial’. Aside from ‘Lulz Follow the Cop’ scenarios in Mafia games all cases and evidence is circumstantial. It is looking at facts and motives in play to find who is likely scum. So using this is simply rhetoric and not applicable as a defense. In fact I could use the same argument to undercut your own stance on why ROFL is scum.
2. As to ‘Not being motivated’ elements … using ‘oh, I’m apathetic’ isn’t a defense. There is scum motive in not drawing any more attention than necessary to a growing lynch on your partner in early game play.

3 & 4. Actually, it is you straw manning my point. Mafia is a marathon, not a sprint. The scum team sacrificing a power member as weak as Prec seems acceptable if they think they might get town cred. They would not assume a lost member, and just because they think they are doing it for town cred doesn't mean it was done right. Obviously you think rofl is town, so it worked on some level, right? It's sad for them they lost another member, but maybe he shouldn't have been so obvious either.

No, I’m not straw-manning. Scum don’t bus just to “Lulz, bus”. Anyone who tells you differently is lying. Regardless of how weak a player is (and that argument is also bad given the number of apparently weak players in the game) scum don’t bus just to bus for lulz on Page 3 and push a lynch through. Again - I am flat out saying that your (and Empking's) stance that scum are more likely to RVS / early game bus a powerful Scum role is fabricated and ludicrous.

And we are clearly at a cross-roads – you say my argument against Empking is ‘self-serving’ and I say yours against ROFL is as well.

5. I can't even respond to this because I never said he was getting resistance. There is an equal split of people wanting Emp lynched to wanting rofl lynched, and everyone else on some other wagon is doing exactly what you are accusing Emp of doing and ignoring both wagons to pursue their personal crusade.

You are the player who used as a point for your attack on ROFL the following –

Rofl's hammer accomplishes both a chance to gain cred and end the day early, which makes him the better candidate.

He's also received the most resistance to wagon today.

My point is disagreeing with this exact point … I think there is just as much resistance to lynching Empking as ROFL. I was pointing out that you were using poor logic in pushing your ROFL lynch.

And I am not dodging any questions. I specifically stated we just need to lynch someone that is going to give us info. I never stated one person gives more or less info than someone else.

You stated that I don't believe emp is scum though, nor do I really feel his lynch would be informative.. The implication is quite clear … you feel the a ROFL lynch would be more informative. And I’m asking you to indicate why and you have yet to do so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Bullshit Toog. Just Bullshit. That's all I can say.

You've chosen once again to resort to attacking me (saying my scum-hunting is only straw-manning) as opposed to addressing the issues I have presented. That's attacking the person instead of the basis of their arguments and scummy. You imply that Empking is not a 'good lynch' for informational purposes but then avoid commenting on why ROFL is. Now you are back-tracking to say "any lynch is a good lynch" effectively. Well if you believe that why aren't you voting Empking? As you say we should "just get to lynching someone that might provide us with some info for Day 3".

Your stance, again, that scum are more likely to be on the end of a Page 3 lynch on a Mafia Godfather is crap. Your assessment isn't based at all on anything resembling reality. It's based on the fact that suspecting those off the wagon puts you in the spotlight as someone who ignored the Presc wagon (like Empking). It's self-serving and frankly transparently bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, what's the difference between passively ignoring a wagon and actively ignoring a wagon? (I didn't do either, I didn't notice the wagon.)

Um whut is this question? Ignoring the wagon is ignoring a wagon.

Claim: Jailkeeper Target: MOI.

Why did you choose to target me?

UNVOTE: Empking

If someone counter-claims you I’m back in a heartbeat but being this far ahead is little reason to lynch without a counter-claim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: ToonFighter

I'm going to follow nhammen's lead until we see a counter-claim or I get a good re-read of the other off-the-wagon folks.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey MoI, I was expecting a follow-up to the responses to your questions.

Keep your pants on. I've got other things to deal with than just this game. You'll get your response at some point today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Tell me, since you have been in more games than I have, are you telling me, that it is Impossible to have all members bus their godfather. I know you are going to tell me something of the words of "highly unlikely,"

Well the word impossible doesn’t apply to Mafia. But I’ll slot the chances that Presc was power-bussed by all his teammates as so unlikely it might as well be zero.

Put another way (in the words of Llamarble) – I’d be comfortable enough losing to the scum-team that did it if I’m wrong. Because it would require play that was so potentially damaging to scum’s wincon that the Risk / Reward is way too heavily slanted to Risk.

That said – evidence this is Multiball makes all bets off on this front as scum from the opposite team would not be bussing Presc.

I'm sure it has before, there have been alot of mafia games played. Just because it "doesn't happen" doesn't mean ROFL is 100% conftown.

1. I think the above addresses my thoughts on this well enough.
2. Where did I say ROFL is ‘100% confirmed Town”?

1. Gut, I know I am town, and I feel one of them is scum. You already know my feelings on that.

Gut isn’t a reason that holds any weight. If you can’t articulate why you think one of those two HAS to be scum in a way that relates to the game thread then your stance can’t be considered credible.

2. Loooool. Is that a possible option? (seriously)
I mean if we lynch ROFL/Empking, and he flips town, I'm getting Vig'd

Hell, I don't see an option where I don't get vig'd tonight by VE, especially if Empking flips town.

You didn’t answer the question. I was trying to gauge how strong your ‘gut’ feeling on this is. I'm not asking if you think you will get vigged. I'm asking - if both Emp and ROFL flip Town would it be a prudent move (from a not-Sala point of view) for Town to lynch you given your stance?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ummm... what? If there is some evidence for this that I have missed (unless you are saying that VE is the evidence, which I would disagree with) I'd like to know, because that would make sala's statement a LOT more relevant.

There isn't any evidence yet. That's my point. We have two deaths N1 one of which was immediately claimed. Unless you think Viscera is opposite scum to Red who took a HUGE gamble then we don't have any reason to conclude we are in Multiball.

If we are in Multiball Sala's "Oh my god they killed MoI" does look very much like scum who expected to have me dead and makes him auto-lynch.

But until we have more information (via total Nightkills or a different color scum flip) I'm working off the 1 Mafia theory.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Salamence, you keep calling me scum but you haven't formulated a reason why.

I think rofl is town and his wagon is a counter wagon to TheShadow's scum wagon.

VOTE: TheShadow

WTF is this?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I could see Toon or Toog scum as well, but PM just SCREAMS scum, and it's a helluva lot less riskier to lynch a claimed VT (which, considering two scum are dead by Day Two, losing a VT is hardly a huge loss) than lynching a potential Jailkeeper.

PMyst is either a VI or a troll alt pretending to be a VI. Voting for him is effectively a policy lynch IMO. Given the good position we are in I can’t say that outright it’s scummy to make that move now but I want to ask the following –

Given what I just said about PMyst … what do you see in Toog / Toon that makes them scum and are you satisfied lynching a VI slot (who can be scum, make no mistake) over either of them?

--

Is multiball defined as (2 mafia groups) and/or (Mafia group + SK) and/or (2 mafia groups + SK)?

Multiball is defined as having multiple discrete Mafia groups. Serial Killers have no impact on whether a game is Multiball or not as they are 3rd Parties. A game can be Multiball with a Serial Killer (Clash of Kings Mafia and Atomic Mafia come to mind immediately) or without (Storm of Swords Mafia).

Prescending died a mafia roleblocker, not a red one. This is why i believe there is no multiball.

Techinically he died a Godfather but to address your actual point –

Him not flipping Mafia A or Red Mafia isn’t 100% clear indication that we are not in Multiball. JasonT1981’s Superhero Revolution Mafia (a Large Theme) only flipped the Mafia by coloring them aka a Mafia Goon could flip in both Purple and Red. It's rare but not unheard of. For the moment I think we aren't Multiball but I never 100% shut down the possibility in my mind until we have strong evidence.

This post exists. And it reaks of scum

Um not it’s not, really. Toog already made the point before … the fake-claim that Scum Roleblockers go to immediately is Jailkeeper. I am hesitant to immediately lynch without a counter-claim but it isn’t outside the realm of possibility at all that Empking is scum fake-claiming JK. His target list over the next few days will help clarify the issue if he isn’t lynched today.

Well, way you have been going with it, you pretty much call him confirmed town for hammering the GF, which I could see both sides, where town could do it, and where scum could do it, but its more WIFOM.

Please either link to me using the words “confirmed Town” in regards to ROFL or stop making this incorrect statement. You are crossing into misrep territory each time you say that. Scum hammering their Godfather on Page 3 without leaving a chance to claim and draw out Town PRs is almost playing against Wincon and to suggest it is simply WIFOM that they would do that is poor reasoning IMO.

What is the possibility he could be third-party with VE? I just find it hard to believe he is town.

Explain this. This is a Large Normal. Cults are explicitly blacklisted and that’s the only possible 3rd Party role I can think of that would possible allow for non-Mafia non-Town to be aligned.

What are you trying to say here?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I should explain myself. I am not an alt. I am an original player. You can say I'm a Village Idiot, but in reality, I have a brain which can allow us (the town) to have a game-breaking strategy.

A game-breaking strategy in a closed game? I think this further supports my premise.

--

@MoI: You said that you have no reason to think right now that ROFL could be scum. I'm also trying to say, couldn't there be a SK/Neutral faction here, saying VE is lying?

You are grasping desperately at straws here. Is it possible there is a 3rd party faction in the game? Yes. Is there any possible 3rd Party faction that could have more than 1 member in a Normal game (per site Normal standards)? No. The only allowable 3rd Party faction is Serial Killer (see the Normal Rules and Guidelines). The only way for Rofl and Viscera to be aligned together is to be Mafia or Town.

What motivation does VE as any alignment have to lie about killing IAI? He wasn’t going to be under pressure today IMO since he helped lynch Presc. Claiming a kill he didn’t make for ‘Town Cred” doesn’t benefit him as it puts him in the cross-hairs of the real killer (if Town Vig) or sets him up to be framed for making anti-Town kills later (if a Mafia faction or Serial Killer). It makes no sense for him to lie about that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be V/LA with no expected internet access starting tomorrow the 4th until the 11th. I’m out of the country during this period.

I’d rather Toon be lynched if I had a preference between him and PM. I will move my vote to PM if I don’t see any sign that people are willing to shift towards Toon.

--

Also, if PM Flips scum, Arugula is probably the last scum.

1. What happens if he flips Town?
2. Why are you so certain that we have 4 total Mafia?

--

Cupcake Mafia... Game Over end of Night 1. It was a Mini, granted, but in a 3 scum game, all were dead by the start of Day 2 (1 was lynched Day 1, 1 was Vig'd, and the other sent the night kill on a Bomb).

A crappy set-up isn’t something that should be celebrated …

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. I would probably still think Arugula is scum, probably better than TF.
2. I don't like this question, MoI. It's the same psychological bullshit Junpei pulled on me as scum. How should I know how many scum are in a Large Normal? I would say 2 goons, a RB (if empking is lying), and a GF, or possibly 2 goons, a doctor (if VE is SK), and the GF. Do I look like a guy that knows much about Role Setup?

1. So basically the PMyst flip will have zero effect on your reads …
2. How should you know know how many scum are in the game is the very root of the question. Your post says loud and clear “PM flipping scum number 3 meands that Arugula is probably the last scum (number 4). This is the kind of unconscious slip that scum make … they know a bit of information about the set-up and makes statements that rely on that without realizing the implications. Again focusing on the Set-up make-up is irrevelent to the point in question. Now I grant you its’ not a 100% “Must lynch” factor since it within the realm of possibility that you are just guessing 4 based on 17 starting players. I’m not sure I like your reaction frankly but given you were on the Presc wagon I’m storing it in my notes to be assessed down the line.

--

Oh, and Tangion, Velazanth, ToonFighter, McStab, mcqueen, and VisceraEyes aren't? We have two scum down D2. Excuse me if I'm not as intense as I usually am.

So other players are coasting so you can't be suspected? This looks like the classic “Look over there” defense.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm back from vacation and will be getting caught up on my games and Modding duties over the next 24-36 hours. Expect my catch-up in that time frame.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So first I caught up on what happened during my V/LA. I see you guys got your Policy lynch out of the way. I hope you are happy. PM wasn’t on the Prescing lynch so it wasn’t a horrible option.

VOTE: Toon

This was a better one. Given that nhammen was pretty strong on Velaz at the end of the day I would also strongly consider a Velaz vote. Especially after trying to lay the Nhammen shot at Empking’s feet today.

--

@McStab

– so you got your ‘safe’ Policy lynch. I want you to lay out three solid scum suspects and why today.

@ROFL

– Stop voting Empking. You are doing it wrong. He’s almost overwhelmingly Town based on how things turned out from last Night IMO.

@Viscera

– Did you shoot last Night? Yes or no first and based on that we can go forward …

--

Hmm, he was a scum read too.

Explain in a couple of sentences why because he was pretty damn Town IMO.

sigh, we're basically back to square 1

Um, whut?

--

1. I would probably still think Arugula is scum, probably better than TF.

So PM flipped Town. Why didn’t you start the day voting Arugula?

--

@MoI
No, but he is singling me out for no reason.

So what? Frankly this strikes me as “Why me whining” not “This person is scummy for pushing on me for reasons he could push on 4 other players and not explain the why he chose me”.

You haven’t done anything with trying to ascertain Sala’s motivations and that’s behavior that more likely comes from scum IMO. I still don’t like lynching from those on the Prescing wagon but each post you make has me rethinking that stance.

--

Your flip actually will help me get a better placement of where Salamence20 stands in this game, as does PM. I'd rather lynch PM, and have you vigged.

Awful lot of IIoA talk here. Analysis on what PM’s Town alignment told you stat.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, @MoI, why is the Presc. wagon all town? I still believe in the powerbus.

Then you are either

A. Scum trying to avoid lynching in the pool off the wagon to extend your lifespan (seriously, note that all scum shots have so far landed comfortably ON the Prescing wagon).
B. A player who has no clue.

Which is it? Because I have yet to see anyone come close to showing me a Powerlynch on a Godfather so early Day 1 that has more scum on it than off. And until you can even turn up a single example here on MS I'm going to work from the overwhelmingly more realistic and likely scenario that more scum are off his wagon than on it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes actually. So as to avert suspicion.

So you think smart scum play is to kill the Town players off who DON'T suspect you and leave around those people more likely to band together to lynch you? Especially for scum in this game who are already down 2 members?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If we are lynching based on MoI's philosophy, the one where we have to lynch people not on the Godfather lynch, then Empking is the only option imo. On the Wagon, I could go for Arugula, Salamance, and possibly even MoI for concocting this plan to only lynch off the lynch.

Interesting that (aside from ignoring yourself who IMO is a good possible lynch which is clearly Null) you also ignore inte and McStab who were both off the wagon in trying to suggest that the only acceptable lynch is Empking who claimed Jailkeeper. Aside from you "These two are Town" which leaves much to be desired IMO.

And by interesting I mean scummy. You suggest I'm a viable lynch for wanting to lynch off the wagon but you yourself falsely frame the pool off the wagon in assessing whether that is a good plan.

What are you 'reads' on inte and McStab?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fuck it, I'll just shove MoI's plan down his throat.

I am the town Cop. Night 1 I scanned Velazanth Innocent. Night 2 I scanned Toon Fighter innocent. Pine was non-existent Day 1, he shouldn't even be included in the "plan" and Tangion was similarly so, eventually being replaced.

So what now MoI?

First some questions since we already have 1 Town flipped Investigative role …

1. Why did you investigate those players specifically? And have any breadcrumbs for us?
2. Why did you claim for absolutely no reason other than your personal ego being bruised?
3. Why are McStab (via Pine) and inte (via Tangion) not possible scum simply because Day 1 went fast?

--

i think Velazanth has scumslipped, but i don't really know the merit of it :/

Please link us to the post where he ‘slipped’ and explain why it is a slip in your mind.

this is confusing me, has anyone ever seen scum kill a partner? is that even possible?

1. Are you suggesting scum killed IAI?
2. Yes I have but the situation is not one that in any way applies to this game given this is a Normal.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It was a quiet night in VEland people. Quiet indeed.

Cool inscrutiability doesn't look good on you.

Did you shoot last Night? Yes or No is all that is required.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And why not?

Viscera

- don't answer this ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Arugula wagon, go. VE tomorrow. If there is a vig, then go ahead and vig VE tonight.

So riddle me this McQueen -

What possible upside is there for Mafia Scum Viscera to claim the IAI shot immediately Day 2? Unless you are floating that he is Bulletproof that's a ABSOLUTE deathwish.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Except it's not is it MoI? I didn't die last night, and apparently I didn't shoot anyone.

Shsh that's the point Viscera ... let the racecar respond for himself

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mcqueen

- I'm still waiting on this ... hop to it.

Your flip actually will help me get a better placement of where Salamence20 stands in this game, as does PM. I'd rather lynch PM, and have you vigged.

Awful lot of IIoA talk here. Analysis on what PM’s Town alignment told you stat.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you read a bit better, you'd see what it told me. Just because I don't directly say it, doesn't mean I haven't said it indirectly.

No. Just no. You spent a good portion of the day yesterday talking about information to be mined from the PM lynch. Now it's put up time. I EXPLICITLY want to see what reads you got from his flip and interactions. Pronto.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No.

VOTE: McQueen

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Toog in regards to Post 606 I’d like to further expand on an element of your response …

In fact, I thought I did it too obviously because I drew the attention of at least 2 other people (rofl and mcstab) when they asked me why I trusted Velazanth so much when he had such a limited amount of posts, which had me fearing that I might get the block or kill the next night... so I started outright acting scummy day 2, going against the grain and just being stupid, to hopefully throw off the scent (I was planning to lay under the radar).

1. So you decided to play Scummy in thread to dissuade being Nightkilled and yet today your frustration is that you were under suspicion. Is that what I am seeing here?
2. How does the fact that two players specifically pointed out your breadcrumb and yet you were not killed / blocked affect your read on those slots (McStab / Rofl)?

--

It explains why MoI has been scrutinizing Arugula all of day 2. MoI's vote on McQueen just broke every single rule he has set (not voting on the prescending wagon, etc.)

Insert face-palm pic here ….

--

VOTE: Empking

I don't believe his claim, and as rofl said, it doesn't make sense to jail rofl. Now he's just hopping on the bandwagon that isn't on him.

Hey Mr. Kettle! Mr. Pot called back and said something about your metallurgical make-up meaning you are of dark pigmentation!

@MoI
Why do the night actions make Empking town?

1. He’s alive.
2. He claimed a JK on an unlikely target who had previously not claimed.
3. He claimed said JK before Viscera claimed whether he had shot or not.

Scum Empking could be screwed multiple ways as this unfolded.

1. If he actually blocked Viscera he risked being lynched immediately by Viscera saying “I sent in a shot on Player X and it obviously failed”. Even Serial Killer Viscera has little reason to let scum-Empking escape at this stage.
2. Fake-claiming a block on ROFL also risks ROFL busting him by having a proveable ability that he can demonstrate he actually used last Night.

Unless you are suggesting that scum has a Godfather / Rolecop / Roleblocker combo that allowed them to know ROFL was not going to counter his claim this makes no sense. And in that case given the number of VTs already flipped Town literally has to be swimming in Powerroles among the remaining living. Until we see evidence of that I’m concluding that Empking is Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

A Serial Killer wins when he is basically the solo survivor unless he is a highly modified version but given the odds are so astronomically small that Viscera claimed Vig Day 2 immediately as a Serial Killer there is really no point to the discussion ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

No because I know that scum know I know that scum know that (repeat ad infintium). Are you seriously basing your vote on my not having heard of game theory?

No. Game-theory doesn’t really apply as you are trying to make it fit. You are a claimed JK and two Mafia are already dead so suggesting they send the player most likely to be Jailed by you to make the kill doesn’t make sense.

He wasn't killed last night; was it obvious to you last night that he wasn't a full vig?

Why does your analysis not take into account that Viscera could have possibly been Roleblocked? Nothing in what you claimed (if you aren’t scum yourself) means scum can’t have a blocker of some sort and blocked Viscera thinking it would incriminate you. This lack of consideration bothers me …

--

Not if the scum knew the vig was going to vig a non-scum player (ie: you/me/rofl)

Same question to you … why are you arguing from basically a point of certainty that the Mafia didn’t try to block Viscera? Your “we are all Town” point of argument seems self-serving.

Scum would of killed VE if she declared to kill Scum.

Under most rule sets (and I see nothing contradictory in Nocman’s) killing the Vig does not stop his Vig shot from going off so this is, as I say above, a curious argument to make.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No because ROFL isn't the scum most likely to be roleblocked by me. Read the seven, or however many, players flat out disbelieving that I'd roleblock ROFL.

Ummm … whut? You are arguing because people other than yourself are suggesting your claimed Jail action isn’t logical then he wouldn’t be the most likely target when he clearly was (if you aren’t lying) since you did claim to target him. Is it incorrect to say he was your biggest scum suspect going into Night 2 and you targetted him in an attempt to block the scum kill?

You make my head hurt Empking …

MOI: If scum has a roleblocker then it still makes more sense for scum to kill the genuinely-agreed-to-be-town power role (VE) over the suspected power role.

So you think what? That scum left Viscera alone regardless of RB or not? Do you think the scum team has reason to shoot Nhammen over both claimed Town roles? If so why aren’t you pursing that train of thought. If not I’m not seeing where this is going …

--

Scum knows who is town. If VE had mentioned something that would of caused the last (or 2 last) mafia to freak, they would of killed him. That's what I would of done if I was scum. Why waste a roleblock on a vig that mafia knows they are going to misfire? It's a nice way to start yelling "VE is SK".

The little tidbit here is that you are incorrectly assuming (at least from an outsiders standpoint, anyway) is that we have no proof it would have been a misfire.

You keep spouting off as if this is a confirmed fact when it’s far from it. Once again your failure to consider the possibility of a Roleblocker in your conclusions is troublesome.

As I asked Empking above – why is Nhammen dead over two claimed Powerroles Sala?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@McStab and inte

– you both have expressed intent to hammer Empking but have said you don’t want the day ended. Why? What more do you think will be generated by having him sit at L-1 if you think he is scum? Frankly most players seem checked out today at this stage and both of you dithering looks somewhat suspect IMO.

--

MoI, why is your vote on McQueen?

My vote is on McQueen for the same reason he voted me Day 2 … I’m voting him for his refusal to provide information that I requested. It’s a vote in an effort to motivate behavior. What is your point?

MoI, whats your read on salamence?

Null leaning Town. His play is pretty much VI-ish which is difficult to read. The way he is being treated makes me think perhaps he could be scum (he getting no significant pressure after an early scare) but for the moment I’m not really interested in pushing him since he was on the Prescing wagon with what I feel is pretty credible reasoning.

Besides Empking who do you think is scum inte?

--

MOI: I don't know why Nhammen. My first thought was that one of his suspects were scum. Tooge cleared them and now I haven't the foggiest. I'd suspect a frame attempt but I was the only one to push the Nhammen-suspect angle and I didn't kill Nhammen.

So you believe Toog’s claim without reserveation despite the fact that we’ve already had one Town Information role (SV) flip?

--

Hopefully I got that right. O_o

Meh.

Godfather / Rolecop / Roleblocker / Goon versus Cop / Vig / Jailkeeper / Tracker doesn’t look balanced to me. I would expect Town to have some other way to defend the non-JK Power-roles since a JK effective neuters them. Or / and possibly a Town Bulletproof / Bomb / SuperSaint / Vengeful / Commuter as another counter. Especially if Viscera is 1-shot.

If Viscera is a Serial Killer (which I doubt myself) then Town really needs significantly more power than your analysis is putting forth. I'd expect some anti-SK Town PR in the very least.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: ROFL

Two days in a row of "Arugula scum" the prior day then opening with another vote?

MOD - LA as usual til Monday morning for normal family weekend time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

mcqeen 3rd party? what other reason do you have to be playing so dumb like you are

Um what third party are you talking about? The only one allowed per Normal Site standards is Serial Killer and unless you are arguing that the Mafia is all dead (with only two members) then it seems very unlikely that another Town protective role has saved three Nights in a row (since Viscera claimed the kill on IAI Night 1).

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here’s the deal – I’m not voting today until we’ve heard from Velaz, Toon and Viscera. The first two are confirmed Town with Toog’s flip and I want to hear their thoughts at the very least. Viscera probably needs to confirm his action or lack thereof from last Night before anything else moves forward.

--

@inte

– any reason you are directly avoiding answering the question I put to you in Post 706?

--

Remember the guy who has been pushing Empkings lynch all this time. Yeah.

No, this response doesn’t cut it for me. You basically are saying that the Empking lynch was a bad lynch by attacking ROFL. Meanwhile let’s look at the vote-count from Empking’s lynch itself –

Empking - 7(roflcopter, Velazanth, Toon Fighter, VisceraEyes, Arugula,

Salamence20

, mcqueen)

And yet there you are in bold right at the tail end of the wagon. I find it suspect that you are trying to attack someone for pushing a wagon that you yourself agreed with enough vote him when it wasn’t deadline. This is the second lynch in a row you’ve “compromised” on (PM was the first) while saying Arugula is scum while not pushing him to any significant degree.

I can see a couple scenarios that make sense for Scum-Sala to act this way.

P.S. I do have a case, but Arugula is the stronger scumread for now.

What is your case on Arugula? I’d like to see you post it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also the people who keep floating the "Viscera is a Serial Killer" nonsense need to stop. He's not scum and you are just cluttering the thread with junk.

[MagnaofIllusion]

There was no argument to be had. It was simple conjecture.

No, do not pass go do not collect $200. How do you even conjecture on it when the possibility McQueen is a Serial Killer is more or less absolute zero? Frankly it reads as fluffly active lurking to me.

--

If we don't go for a VE lynch today, my next favourite pick is Sala, and then Arugula. I could be convinced to vote MoI or ROFL if the right case came around, but so far I'm unconvinced.

We aren’t lynching Viscera ever. Period. Frankly your ‘conjecture’ on him being a Serial Killer is 100% predicated on a Serial Killer not being compulsive which is a huge stretch and very faulty.

--

Explain how MoI is conftown if you are scum.

Now that Sala has answered this it’s not a hard thing to grasp – your own Post 89 says exactly that …

So you are saying I provided a good reason for your lynch? I agree.

Also, if/when Salamence flips scum, MoI is conftown.

So why exactly did you forget your own reasoning again?

--

Arugula's flip will give us alot of information on ROFL's flip, based on Aru calling him town, defending his lynch, and voting empking.

I assume this is predicated on Arugula flipping scum thus implicating ROFL as partner in your mind.

What happens, informationally, if Arugula flips Town?

Well chances are, Viscera is one-shot? I thought we already figured this.

SK would be stupid not to kill for two days in a row, right?

Well then here’s the deal … why should anyone Town be floating the concept at all if this has been ‘figured out’ and it would be stupid for a SK to not shoot two Nights running (which it would be given the game state even if they were not Compulsive)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, I think it's time for a massclaim.

@Velaz

– what do you think of this for today?

--

magna what was your reaction to reading my most recent post

That your ‘theory’ that all remaining scum were bussing Presc is pretty stupid. And that the basis for your theories is a clear as mud. If I was giving you serious consideration as scum I'd already have called you on both aspects. As it stands I'm ignoring it.

--

@Sala

– any reason you didn’t answer my questions in Post 734?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Arugula

- You've been posting on-site but not here. I want an answer to my questions. If you don't post those answers and claim in the next 48 hours from this post I will hammer you.

The countdown is on - (expired on 2012-08-24 21:00:00)

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think we can safely save the massclaim for tomorrow. With presumable 8 town - 2 scum alive, we're in a pretty good spot. No reason to rush that just yet.. I'd like to see Aru flip.

Fair enough. With the two of you who are confirmed Town split on the issue I will not hold up the potential hammer on Arugula (if he doesn't post per my request) for that possibility.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – As usual I will be LA starting today at 4:45pm EDT until Monday morning for weekend family duties. Access will exist but be sporadic.

--

If ROFL/ARU/SAL all flip town, McStab and MoI are scum.

If ARU is scum, lynch ROFL or VE.
If ARU is town, lynch me for bad play.

Some comments on this –

1. Viscera is not scum and frankly any attempt to say he should be lynched at this point is going to be met with rope.
2. I’m assuming you have a McQueen read from Day 1 play of Town. Why exactly do you have either a hidden Town read (I see nothing significant in your ISO) or no suspicion of inte’s slot?

--

i follow your logic

Oh good, then please explain it in your own words.

Sala do not say anything about your reasoning until inte responds

--

I think MoI is more likely to be town than Sala, Arugula, or ROFL, but less likely to be town than you.

Why do you have any sort of Town read on inte’s slot? I honestly don’t see a single post that reads Town at all in his ISO.


--

Tick, Tock Arugula .

..

The countdown is on - 0 days, 11 hours, 26 minutes

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well the countdown has expired and my stipulations have not been met.

VOTE: Arugula

If I don't make it through the Night make sure that Mass-claim occurs tommorow ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Sala

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well well well ...

this was fun but I've got scum to catch so let's make this short and sweet.

Claim: Town Bulletproof

. If scum wants to doom themselves hammering ANOTHER Town power-role ...

In the meantime since I know that Toon and Velaz are just plain bad Town I can concentrate on Sala and Inte for their scummy hop on the wagon.

So which of you is scum and which is damn stupid Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be LA as usual from my family weekend duties til Tuesday morning (due to the Monday Holiday in America). I will have sporadic access but will not be as active as normal.

--

UNVOTE:

So I think getting everything clarified through a mass-claim is the best course of action. I'd prefer if Sala and Inte go first but will defer if Toon and Velaz have different thoughts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So McStab needs to claim followed by Toon and Velaz in any order they choose.

--

i don't like MoI's posts, so i voted to have him lynched
you've been just an idiot

i think this is the first of all your posts that i've read that actually made pro-town sense

Yeah, he’s dying today. Neither of these posts is in any way Town-oriented thinking.

First post – you don’t “like” my posts? Well that’s nice and empty. What specifically makes you think they are from Scum? You can't actually show scum intent in my play so we get this load of nothingness. Furthermore the “VIs can’t be scum” pass opinion used to label Sala Town comes from a perspective of someone who knows Sala isn’t scum (he’s not a partner).

Second post – funny then that you have no interest in pushing / lynching Rofl at all. Because you think he’s only made a single Pro-Town perspective post all game long. Yet no suspicion of him.

Frankly look through his whole ISO. Count the posts that actually show him actively wanting to scum-hunt. If you come up with more than one hand’s worth of fingers please link me to them as I see scum floating along with cheeky active-lurking.

VOTE: Inte

--

moi did you at any point breadcrumb your role?

Not in the manner I do when I breadcrumb. Frankly I don’t bother to breadcrumb if my claim isn’t useful in helping to catch scum post-death (Investigative Roles, mainly). BP actually shouldn’t be breadcrumbed as it neuters it’s one strength – surprise screwing over scum’s Nightkill efforts.

You can see in Post 692 (at the bottom in my reply to McQueen’s speculation) that I list Town Bulletproof as specifically the first role I mentioned. That speculation was made to help draw a Nightkill or Roleblock attempt given that BPs are Passive.

--

So I'm the bigger scum, despite Inte having more points than me, if so, what was the whole point of using VCA? Shouldn't your vote be on Inte? Remember the last time you tried making a case on me?

There was no point to it. I can be classified as VCA but frankly I’m ignoring it since I disagree with most of the assumptions used to categorize votes and his point system in general. However given you could have hammered me pre-claim and probably gotten zero significant pressure given the derpness that made up my wagon I’m not likely to vote him today.

MoI, if I told you I was town, you were actually a town BP, and VE is a vig, would ROFL be scum, or would all town been on Prescending's wagon?

Well your question makes little sense since IAI was already scum on Presc’s wagon. But if there are only 3 scum (which I don’t think is likely) then McStab or Inte is the last scum IMO.

Frankly 3 / 18 is too low a number of total scum for MS given that we know at least 1 is a Goon. 25% is pretty much the ‘rock bottom’ minimum and then you need a pretty strong Scum team. All 3 scum would have to be Power-roles for a 3-15 set-up to be balanced and viable.

[MagnaofIllusion]

well the comment wasn't limited to this game

explain how trying to solidify reads isn't pro-town

Is this really your explanation? I highly doubt your first answer doesn’t make sense in context of this –

Roflcopter, where's your shining beacon of town play?

Clearly from this you expect Obv-Town play from Rofl. So you saying that he never makes Pro-Town posts is a load of crap.

Not sure what the fluffy “trying to solidify reads” is supposed to mean.

@both of you, what happens when i flip town?

Aside from the fact that this is a clear Appeal to Fear as already mentioned – why didn’t you seem to have any worry about lynching me? I didn’t see any “Well if MoI flips Town my plan is X,Y, Z” coming from your slot. Why do others need to have back-up plans when you don’t?

ugh this is hard

all 3 of you have shit interactions with the only scum lynch

I’m going to channel Fate for this one … please hold …

“LOLOLOLOL scum claim! All three of our interactions with flipped scum are 10 million time better than yours. Is McStab your partner since you aren’t even pretending to consider him in your ‘analysis’.

Busted scum is busted. Shouldn’t have tried to fuck with me newb-scum. Now you die!!!!!”

Now that I got that out of my system I think the points above are good –

No indication of why our interactions are shit.
No actual consideration that anyone outside those pressuring him are scum.

Add in his fake “Hammering me before I post is a scum-claim” from Post 818 and we have a win here, I think.

@Inte

– next time you pull scum it helps to pretend to want to scum-hunt BEFORE you get called out.

--

Good News: I am town, and I feel quite impressed at my plan, thanks.

Bad News: I really feel as if you know this plan will out you and you are trying to make sure this doesnt happen.

Well let’s see – I’m not convinced your plan is all that much more than PoE so why should we consider it impressive given we have no assurances you are Town like you do? Couldn’t ROFL simply build a plan from his claimed Town perspective that outs you in exactly the same fashion?

Why not lynch inte today under your “4 scum” scenario?

[MagnaofIllusion]

rofl, what makes you believe MoI's claim

This cracks me up.

Rofl is scum. Yet you are asking him why he believes my claim. The same claim you believed when you unvoted my horribly bad wagon and immediately jumped on Sala.

Unless you think we are both scum (and if that's the case why no mention of us as partners?) you have no reason to ask your scum candidate (who you are voting) why he believes a claim you believe.

More votes up in here!

[MagnaofIllusion]

First let me handle Inte’s latest round of flailing –

moot and irrelevant, you don't know the context

No. You just got exposed contradicting yourself. You can’t just say “ You don’t know the context” and expect anyone to not see it as you pretending you didn’t get caught red-handed.

no worry because i thought you were scum

And I think you are scum. So why the question from you then?

keyword: lynch

i replaced in you dimwit, therefore have no interactions. do you even mafia?

Is this the best you can do? Throwing random insults? You do understand that replacing a slot means you inherit the play (in this case the complete ignoring of the righteous wagon on Presc) of your predecessor, right?

I’ll just for the sake of argument assume you understand and are just caught scum looking for anything to discredit the case on them.

1. rofl was on the Presen-whothefuckcares wagon for ZERO stated reason. obviously he was a scumfuck, but he made no effort to actually contribute
2. sala's d1 play all around sucks, yet is the least scummy out of you 3.
3. your verbose manner is similar to Heroes of Comedy, yet it was unwarranted, therefore sucks shit

This shows how desperate you are to not be lynched.

1. If Prescing was so obv-scum why did your slot ignore him? Ooops ... forgot about that little snag, huh?
2. You’ve admitted you have made little effort to contribute until you suddenly are under fire. Yet you ding ROFL for ‘not contributing’? Scummy Cognitive Dissonance.
3. You claim that Sala’s play sucked with no specifics. Quite weak.
4. You can’t even come up with an actual reason my interaction with Prescing is scummy and have to resort to a playstyle attack. Pathetic.

i have every reason to ask. in this game where i've had little presence, every detail counts when making the decision

1. his answer is important
2. your reaction to his answer is important
3. your reaction to my question is important

Lulz. Generic ‘its important’. Well you have all those reactions. Now explain why they are important and how they reveal scum. I’ll be waiting for whatever drivel you can slap together in pretending you actually were scum-hunting.

--

Meh, I could be scum, you are right, I dont have the benefit of being conftown or having a PR.

Given that the scumteam is in ROFL/STAB/INTE, and the belief there are 4 scum, it means ROFL has to die. His flip tells us the roles of Inte/McStab.

The way ROFL likes sheeping stronger players is scummy.

Nothing here tells me why ROFL is a better lynch than Inte from your perspective. Frankly based on your theory you could lynch any of the three and get ‘information’ on the roles of the other two.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Again, why is ROFL town?

Why is he scum? Seriously I get tired of this. No way in hell does scum quickhammer their fucking Godfather before said Godfather even had a chance to fake-claim and out the Cop. If you don't buy that I don't know what else to tell you Sala. Rofl's play may be terrible to you but he's not scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I didn't know quickhammering scum is a town-tell. Cool.

It doesn't raise any flags when he just happens to KNOW he will flip scum.

In the way it occurred this game? Yes, it is. Had it been a Goon that would be a different scenario. This was a Godfather in a game with a Cop. And given you and half a dozen other players have called him scum for hammering like that the minimal gain is not worth the risk IMO.

@Sala

– so you are going on record that you will not lynch inte? Want to see confirmation from you of this.

--

only one part needs addressing, the rest is a steaming pile of shit

Can’t actually argue against my points so just throw insults and mud. Gotcha.

1. i do not fucking inherent his play. fuck you sideways. there are multiple reason he may of not been able to post or read much.

No, you do. If you don’t understand that go back to Road to Rome.

Which argument is it? Was Prescing obv-scum or not?

2. chainsaw tu quoque fallacy

Pro-tip … throwing a bunch of Wiki buzzwords out as a response isn’t a defense it is flailing.

Tu quoque is brought up often here on MS as a way to say “Well me acting in the exact same way that I accuse another of being scummy for isn’t a contradiction … tu quoque tu quoque” and frankly it is bullshit 99% of the time. This isn’t a legal system.

As for calling my suspicion of you a chainsaw that’s pretty ludicrous as I’ve been calling you scum for awhile and attacking your scummy posts is part of scum-hunting.

4. it was a shit interaction. don't hide behind the playstyle barrier. your response was unnecessary and verbose with a bunch of fluff supporting it

Nope. You can’t do anything to show how it was a scummy interaction and instead once again just throw mud (calling it shit without showing why) and pretend that I’m hiding behind a ‘playstyle’ when that’s not the case.

i say lynch rofl today (or tomorrow who gives a fuck we're gonna win) and then when he flips scum lynch MoI

I say we lynch you today, see you flip scum, and then watch your partner (either McStab who you completely ignore or Sala who you accuse of buddying softly but show no real interest in as scum) squirm as they are doomed via PoE.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Im not confirming shit. Inte could might as well be scum, but today ROFL needs to die.

Well we have reached an impasse. I think inte is far and away more likely to be scum than Rofl. I’m not lynching Rofl based on your plan given you haven’t done anything to show Rofl as scum that warrants your ‘assurance’.

The one thing I agree with is that inte flipping scum means you are quick to follow him to the gallows.

[MagnaofIllusion]

are you willing to allow yourself be lynched when you inevitably turn out wrong?

Of course not. I’m know my role PM

Anything here besides mudslinging? Shouldn’t you be willing to be lynched if ROFL or myself flip Town given you’ve already been on more mislynches than scum lynches? Of course the answer is no because it’s playing against you wincon to say so. But scum love to post these sorts of scummy Appeals to Fear. You can eat rope now.

i think MoI is scum for a tell i've been developing

i want to see how it turns out

Oh, a ‘mystery’ tell that you will not divulge. Nice

--

HEY MOI.
HERES A SCENARIO

YOURE A GOON AND I AM GF,

I AM L-1 FOR A STUPID SCUMSLIP.

WHAT DO YOU DO?

State intent to hammer and ask for a claim.

Hey Sala …what would you do?

Also – posting in All Caps just makes you look like a douche FYI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point I'm going to let the thread breathe. I want input from Toon, Velaz, Viscera's replacement and McStab. I think I've made it clear who my lynching choice is today (inte and Sala only if inte isn't hung) and think it's best to have OTHER input at this stage.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I STILL REFUSE TO TAKE ANY PART OF THIS WAGON. ROFL NEEDS TO DIE BEFORE INTE TO SECURE A TOWN WIN.

MoI read ROFL's ISO. Read it and tell me why he is town.

PS: tomorrow is lylo if Inte is town.

Your belief in the first line doesn’t make it true.

Sala read inte’s ISO. Read it and tell me why he is Town. Hint – “because he plays like a VI in other games” is not a valid response. There is not an ounce of scum-hunting in his entire ISO.

PS: tomorrow is (Probably) LYLO if ROFL is Town.

Ok MoI, lets play games, lolk?

No. Enough of your fucking lulz posting crap Sala.

I’ll narrow down your ROFL case to what it is at it’s core.

Rofl is scum (per you) for the following –

1. Hammering scum Prescending
2. Pushing voting Empking.
3. Suspicion of you.

That’s it. That’s your fucking case.

We’ve already discussed 1 to death. I’m tired of hearing you blab on about it and the more you keep presenting it as a scum-tell the more I become confident you are inte’s partner doing everything in his fucking power to keep him alive.

Your second point is rather funny. Let’s review the Empking wagon …

Empking - 7(roflcopter,

Velazanth, Toon Fighter

, VisceraEyes,

Arugula

,

Salamence20

,

mcqueen

)

I’ve taken the time to color in the flipped / Cop confirmed Town on the wagon. And low and behold who is there in bold. It’s you. So your “lynching Empking is a scum-tell” seems odd given YOU WERE FUCKING ON THE WAGON AND HUNG HIM TOO!

Why is Rofl scum for lynching Empking when you are Town? Further question – if ROFL flips Town are you going to try to lynch Viscera? Because no fucking way in hell that wagon was 100% Town. And that would make scum one of the two of you.

The third point is needs no explanation as to why it’s terrible.

So that’s your case in a complete nutshell. Are you telling me it’s fucking compelling as hell?

--

MoI, why do you think sala is my partner?

Because he’s doing everything in his (rather limited) power to make sure you don’t hang and his reasoning for his Town read on you is at best weak.

What happened to your 'threatened' self-vote inte? Confirmed Town has basically told you to shove it. Was it all just another AtE on your part?

[MagnaofIllusion]

THIS FUCKING POST HERE. QFFT.

What about that post is ‘obv-Town’? He’s not confirmed Town so why in the fuck would he get lazy? His “I revoked my claim” line is crap since he KNOWS that I’m not going to self-vote regardless of my alignment since it is playing against my wincon.

MoI, please take a fucking moment of your life and check out NY 158, and notice my play after being conftown and dealing with inte.

No. Go find me a fucking inte game where he is scum that shows him not being a non-scumhunting useless sack of shit. Then we can talk about how ‘useful’ your meta read is.

You and ROFL are being fucking retarded if you think TF/VELA are going to add much to the table. HAVE YOU NOTICED THAT ALL TF DID WAS SHEEP YOU, AND THERE IS NO FUCKING DOUBT VELA WILL DO THE SAME.

At this Point, McStab is ignoring certain games in favor of others, its null, but very annoying. His vote will be on inte anyways.

Who the fuck cares about VE anymore?

What the fuck is this shit? Who cares about VE anymore? I do given his slot is Town and I want input from it. Same with Toon / Vez … them being lazy as Confirmed Town is bad play. I want more. I'm sure scum is happy to have 3 Town player fucking idle.

ALSO NOTICE HOW ROFL IS BUDDYING YOU AND YOU ARE LETTING HIM GO WITH IT. (Ie: QFT everything MoI says, MoI is town, etc)

Shut the fuck up. Inte is buddying you like your leg is his personal playground yet you don’t have a problem with that. So color me unimpressed.

But the bigger point is – you and inte tried to mislynch me with not a bit of discussion today. Rofl didn’t. Should I assume only Town tried that shit and Mafia just ho-hummed and let it go by? Hell no.

AND NO, MY CASE ISNT "ROFL IS SCUM BECAUSE HE VOTED ME" (Even though, might I add in KH, scum likes to vote me for the lulz) You didnt even mention the WIFOM and Arugula pushing, despite having me as the bigger scum suspect.

Stop being terrible if you are Town. That’s not what I said your case was and you know it. And what about him lynching Arugula makes him scum again since you pushed for Arugula like a champ yourself?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So having has replaced so one of our four inactive slots is here.

@MOD – please prod McStab as he needs to provide content.

--

It's called big picture MoI. Not against your win con to look to the future.

Of course not. But what you are doing is specifically crafting your questions to be self-incriminating. Which is, of course, a subtle way of trying to force people off your wagon with a mixture of AtE and Appeal to Fear.

hello havingfitz

quick, claim your night actions

Clear Faux-Town posting. This sort of thing NEVER, EVER catches actual scum. It’s posted to look like you are trying to do so when it’s pointless fluffery.

So why don’t you link me to your prior suspicions of Viscera …

--

I never said it is obv-town or any alignment. What I agreed with is that confirmed town gets lazy, you know TF and Vela are very weak players, but asking for their advice because they're town is shit, especially when they sheep you.

No, asking Confirmed Town players to step up and be active is not shit. It’s what every member of Town should be doing. The fact that you don’t even want other players to be active is downright scummy.

Here you go, GG

What about that game is significantly different than his play here? He has less overall posts than Ythan (who was the Mod there), coasted without making any significant attempts to scum-hunt to my quick ISO review, and basically got carried by Petapan as far as he went.

Because you don't seem to fucking get it. ROFL made no comments whatsoever on Arugula until Empking claimed JK. UNTIL THEN I WAS HIS SECOND SCUMREAD. LOLOLOLOLOLOL IGNORANCE.

What’s the point of this other than to be stupid? Are you saying Rofl is scum for not lynching you and instead lynching other players? Players that you yourself agreed were scummy and helped lynch also?

I mean the message I am getting here is that Rofl should have lynched you to be Pro-Town. Which would mean you are scum …

So if voting you is the correct option I'm happy with that also BTW.

[MagnaofIllusion]

A couple questions for fitz –

Why is my being alive so problematic but it’s not apparently a problem for you that both confirmed Town via Toog players and your own slot (as confirmed as you can be without Cop information) are all still alive. I’m very curious at why your reasoning is on that end.

Furthermore – so your vote-count analysis on Empking finds me problematic for being on the Empking wagon before he claimed but no on the mislynch wagon? Interesting that I’m scum for not wanting to mislynch the claimed Jailkeeper.

In the end I'm not going to spend too much time worrying about arguing with you since you are pretty likely Town but I find the selectivity and confirmation bias here pretty questionable.

--

Whos up for a McStab/MoI scumteam, with a prediction all town was on the MoI wagon?

Lulz. So suddenly Rofl is Town now. How quickly the worm turns. Yes ... I'm basically calling you opportunistic scum with this Sala.

I especially like how you are constantly mentioning McStab as scum but haven’t made one move to actually vote him. Why is that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Having’s “analysis” of wagons is pretty half-assed. Honestly I don’t have the energy to argue with him since he’s generally hard-headed regardless of alignment. Luckily I know he’s more than likely Town.

--

Seriously, MoI has forgotten about this game.

I try to forget what makes my brain hurt and feel like a railroad spike has been pounded into my temple.

Seriously sound like a policy on me.

What sort of policy lynch is it? Do you deny driving / being involved with all the lynches that went through? Didn’t you say “Well I need lynched today”?

HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES HAVE I SAID THAT THE SCUMTEAM IS (ROFL or ME) And (INTE and/or MCSTAB/MOI)

But you are happy to not vote the person (Rofl) who is confirmed scum to you and take a shot at the 33% percent chance in Inte / McStab / MoI. After yesterday where you were screaming for Arugula’s blood so hard I find it odd that you aren't still screaming "Rofl is scum" from the rooftops like a rabid dingo ...

I'm up for a 1v1 if I have too

So you want to 1v1 with me or McStab or who?

--

subtle omgus

zz

This …. I can’t help myself …

MoI who is scum if I flip town?
What will you do?

If you flip Town that leaves a pool of the following players who can be scum –

Sala, McStab, rofl

I pull up my big boy pants and re-read this fucking trainwreck of a game to decide which of them makes the most sense as scum.

Question to you inte – I flip Town Bulletproof. Who do you do?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m not sold on there being scum on this lynch.

Empking

had claimed so IMO scum would be even keener to stay off the mislynch.

How's this for a good point....if moi's wagon consists of three ~confirmed town + Sal, even if Sal was scum (which you yourself do not believe) they would still have another player who could have dropped the hammer by now. The fact a hammer hasn't been dropped just adds to the potential that moi is scum.

So pick a theory of game-play and go with it fitz. You can't argue that my "not being hammered" indicates I am scum honestly given your stance on the Empking lynch..

Now I'm going to have to dig into your posts. Before my Town read on Viscera due to claim and play made be willing to let your posting go but this is so self-contradictory I'm rethinking that read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: inte

while I re-read fitz and re-assess ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thank god I can be released from this clusterfuck.

Good work all - yet another Town power-role lynch over scum!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I do not feel bad if you're town, MoI. I asked for your input. I talked it over with everyone else. You are the most logical pick here. If you were in my shoes, you would've done the same thing.

You not taking this opportunity to steer us toward your scumreads tells me that we made the right call. Enjoy your time in the Dead QT, scum.

Yup. I certainly haven't made my thought crystal clear today. DERP. I'll be frankly - this game is filled with such terrible overall play that I couldn't muster the energy to care when I had more interesting and frankly fun games taking up my attention.

Thankful for you Red you are Cop Confirmed Town so once I flip Bulletproof you will not get backlash.

I have to lulz at Rofl calling out me for inactivity.

Good luck Town ... you are going to need it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This frankly is the type of game that makes me think BaM replacement rules have a point. ToonFighter, Viscera and Velaz are now on my Mod blacklist for being completely useless to Town. The best thing Velaz did was flake so someone competent into his slot.

Town Won by a Combination of Three Factors -

1. Getting a complete Nervous Newb as Godfather who had to be power-bussed.
2. Empking's decision to JK me Night 1. Without that IAI survives. I had Viscera nailed as a Power-role and the game goes much differently if he can't confirm his slot. With my last breath I curse

Zoidberg

Empking.
3. McStab not hammering me when he had the chance.

Had McStab not so damn strongly linked himself to me he would have had a fighting chance at the end with all the non-Confirmeds (Sal, Inte, Rofl) looking easily like a possible scum.

Good game Nocmen. At the end the complete lack of any engagement by Town even sucked my will to play. I really didn't have any energy to care about the outcome after all that had gone Town's way. Win some, lose some.