NY 163: Void Mountain of the Nightless Temple (Game Over)

[OtterHorse]

Vote Antilles

Head claims.

Go.

Also im not sure anypony cant tell us apart... you have issues.

Note im still in massive protest over this username but the game has started.

[OtterHorse]

Also I found a way better picture.

Its literally me and an otter.

I mean its perfect.

If it was better quality

[OtterHorse]

holy cow. why is our avatar not that incredibly freaky centaur-esque combination? I guess this is the comrpromise. Anyway, I endorse Horse's vote.

[OtterHorse]

As somepony who has intentionally kept their part in a hydra hidden even when asked because they were scum and wanted to be able to not post if needed, im fairly happy with my vote right now. Town has absolutely no reason to ever keep who they are hidden, while scum have quite a few reasons to. Its a hydra, not an alt.

I would also be happy with a lynch of RM (would probably move vote if Antilles head claims), lesser but still quite happy MM. KBW also works awesome as a policy/utility lynch which are completely on the table this game as even if we hit town twice with PLs game would then be EV balanced. Just me talking (although its always been just me I guess) serra and TAM also are also scum reads.

[OtterHorse]

So try again. What strategic value for town is there in knowing who's in a hydra?

You can compare activity (just because you have intentionally played anti-town as town doesnt make it a null tell)
You can compare some meta tells
You know approximate competence of the player

What reason can you give for NOT having them claim? There is absolutely nothing beyond "because I dont want to". I would glady vote any hydra who ever refuses to claim

Head activity (i.e., which head is posting) has no relevance to alignment of the hydra.

Yes it does. Activity always does.

[OtterHorse]

Oh I forgot, I don't agree with this. I don't see how any policy/utility lynch is good for this game. I know how tou feel about them, but Two policy lynches puts us at lylo essentially. Three mislynches and we're done if they're at the start of the game. So not interested in those.

Game is nightless. 8:4 nightless is no longer an open due to it being noticeably townsided (town is 5-1 I think), extrapolate to a 10:5 being "somewhat town balanced" and even if we hit town with two policy lynches we are in a slightly town sided position. There is a reason I didnt join this one until I argued a bit with some other ponies about how the game was balanced in practice as opposed to theory.

Titan actually not realizing the game is nightless makes me think they are town. I would expect town to notice this too, but missing really big things is usually something that town does instead of scum. Its kinda like the VT tell, scum hit it at times but its accurate enough to use.

Still no clue where my otter buddy is but will just start opening things up:

1) @RM - In 42 you respond to the comment about Titan wanting an all hydra alliance but I read that as more of a joke than anything else that you got a little defensive about. I think everypony actually knows that hydras can be scum, but your reaction seemed to be trying to prove the point and then seemed to dodge making any sort of alignment distinction from it and dropped it. What was the point of that post really and did you view it as a tell?

2) @RM - What are your actual reads? Everything has been "I need more" or along those lines while actually not looking to get more from those who you state that about. Are you calling yourself an easy lynch there or Antilles as well?

3) @MM - Why are you against a PL due to in part inactivity (which at that point everypony save one or two had posted)? Was it just due to inactivity or is there a greater reason behind being against one there?

4) @serra - Why is scum more likely to try to policy lynch than town?

Though I can see rainbow being anal about something like that.

Not sure if I should take this as a complement or an insult.

Pony's Good Lynches: Antilles, RM, MM, Serra, TAM, KBW. Antilles I would be sorta willing to move away if they head claimed but im not a fan of their first post either. Feels really forced.

@Bulb - If you want us to not treat you like you are derpy, self-voting and declaring sompony is scum for voting you due to that is about the worst way to do so. Even if you arent going to be logical, destroying all credibility in the first couple pages is the wrong move. Self-votes DONT give you plenty of information because those who will vote you for it will ALWAYS vote you for it regardless of alignment. If you think you got anything out of it, you are dilluding yourself because all you are doing is attacking/defending players or playstyle preferences. I wont even imply it - you are acting like a newbie player who doesnt seem to know what they are doing.

[OtterHorse]

OtterHorse: Why are you voting me?

You havent head claimed mainly (which as ive said, anti-town at best), but especially after your last couple posts are a decent scumpick independently of that as you are really more seeming to comment on KBW who is a hot topic of conversation but actually say nothing with respect to alignment.

That said this half is 100% willing to policy lynch KWB who is... kinda like zwet but less logical and more unreadable.

[OtterHorse]

is that half Zora?

nope. excessive parenthesies (or however you spell it) mean its me too. No clue where the otter is.

What are your thoughts on KBW? Policy lynching him (or utility lynching) him or not. Same for Antilles, im calling him scum beyond his refusal to claim.

[OtterHorse]

I don't see a scum case for Antilles, as for KBW I might be willing to go after him, in fact I'm halfway ready to place my vote on him.

Vote KBW

Your move then.

As ive said, he is a perfect policy/utility lynch. Lets do it.

[OtterHorse]

Why is scum more likely to try to policy lynch than town?

Policy lynches can be easy mislynch targets. If people agree it's a policy lynch, there will be little suspicion thrown around in the case of a mislynch.

Policy lynches can also hit scum. Basically a policy lynch is of a player that you believe that their removal will increase town chances of winning even if said player is town. Players like ani, umbrage, LLD... ones who are actively destructive to the town even if they are town. KBW from meta is one of those players. What you are using is the scare tactic that someponies have a hard time getting over.

I'm a bit confused as to why you're advocating policy lynches in this game in particular. I haven't played this setup before, but I sort of assumed that it's balanced at the start, so two policy (mis)lynches push the game in scum's favor. Why would the starting setup be as town-sided as you claim, OH?

Hi. We are two normal reviewers and spend more time than most working on and with open setups.

Nightless is balanced at a slightly less than 2:1 ratio, in practice its probably about 1.8:1. We used to have Nightless Mafia as an open game at 8:4 but that has been pulled since scum has won one run of that game, and that went down to F3. Extrapolating to five mafia, ten town essentially balances to a slight town advantage. Therefore if we could just wipe two players out of the game instantly even if they were both town, we would still be in a game where setup puts us just slightly ahead.

[OtterHorse]

I disagree that it's scare tactics. There's a balance in utility between getting rid of a potentially harmful player and lynching someone with a better chance of being scum. I am wary of people who ignore this balance and blindly call for a policy lynch before much discussion has taken place.

This game is not balanced, and policy lynches are supposed to be done early. Besides the only ones who are more likely scum than KBW right now are you, TAM, RM and Antilles. We can always lynch you instead.

I've also spent my fair share of time reviewing setups (f2f ones), and I'd be happy to agree 10:5 is still townsided, had this setup not been balanced and reviewed by people I can only assume know what they're doing. I hesitate to believe from someone who might be scum that town can play a loose game because this setup is so townsided.

f2f is nothing like forum mafia. Nothing. Its like saying if you are good at PIG or something you are automatically a great basketball player, they have a bit of the same core but required skills are very different. Also you do realize my complaining is what made the setup already change once right? Its still townsided, but just not as townsided. I think anypony who knows the theory on this setup (did you ignore my evidence that 8:4 is townsided?) would agree with me that this game is more townsided than scumsided by far, and could be better balanced.

Im not saying we play a loose game, im saying we policy lynch KBW. Thats twisting my words quite a bit.

[OtterHorse]

Same for Antilles, im calling him scum beyond his refusal to claim.

Hmm?

Is this saying you're suspecting him b/c he's not claiming,

or suspecting him for other reasons in addition to him not claiming?

In addition. It just changes it from slight scum read to scum read.

Anyways

Still just me. Flying solo. Being awesome.

Serra is actually really likely scum, right about at that level of TAM. KBW is still the lynch for policy reasons + being scummy, but those two are very likely scum.

Serra actually is all hung up on me pushing KBW, and part that really bugs me is how he treats me and Reek in comparison. He calls Reek flat out scum for a vote as a policy lynch, but seems very unwilling to actually do the same when I take a similar stance and instead tries to maybe argue im scum because I dont think this game is balanced (it isnt, if I was part of the team it would have been 10:5). It feels like scum who is afraid of getting into the same arguement with somepony who will fight back hard.

Now, his other stuff says all sorts of nothing too. KBW is "offputting", RM didnt get the joke, MO has one fluffy post (which from you and half of this game lol).

@Serra - What game did you play with TAM?

TAM is scum as well for the fact that he isnt doing anything but responding to meta arguements against him.
Antilles is a good scum bet because he is only posting to say he wont headclaim and apparently complain about me calling him scum (in part for) that while actually not paying any attention to what was a very vauge accusation of him being scum for other reasons.

[OtterHorse]

Zoraster here. Mainly been letting the Pony do the driving in the game start here as it's not exactly my favorite thing in the world, but I'm here and I think that Rainbow will not object to my pivot. So here's my take:

VOTE: Antilles

Not usually a fan of policy lynching generally, and I think the "games unbalanced therefore we policy lynch" is specious both because the logic is wrong and I dispute the premise. However, I DO like the Antilles vote despite a lack of content from him and here's why:

1. Head claiming IS pro-town. I don't know if it's truly anti-town to resist it

at first

because there are a myriad reason you might think you can keep your identity secret, but once it becomes clear that it's a distraction, give it up and play the game. Because the ability to analyze a player in full is something that is quite helpful to the town. Avoiding that, and carrying someone through to later in the game helps town not in the least.

2. If he didn't head claim, that'd be one thing. But he doesn't head claim AND he basically refuses to engage with the game as a whole. Just do an iso on the guy. It's not just that he hasn't posted or that his posts have been fluffy.

3. Getting rid of purposefully anti-town players is ESSENTIAL in a mountainous setup. There is no question of whether maybe Antilles is just trying to hang back in the shadows to protect a power role. Because there are no power roles and mafia can't kill him. If you think this fundamental change does not alter the playing field of the game you are WRONG. Please step back and analyze this as a nightless mountainous game. A general aversion to lynching those with SECRETS is unfounded here.

Here's the question that I pose to everyone:

Assuming that Antilles is as worthless going forward, refuses to engage, and refuses to even give us a way to evaluate whether the heads' meta matches up with such conduct (or that the guy tends to lurk until later where he'll actually provide content), will we not need to lynch the guy in the future ANYWAY? And assuming the answer is YES (and it should be), are we remiss in not lynching him now when we have a reasonable expectation of his conduct later?

[OtterHorse]

Some people don't wanna reveal their heads, bro, doesn't make them town or scum.

Meaning that your first reason is BS and half of your second is BS.

You need to stop worrying about him not claiming heads, its a secret hydra, who cares who the heads are? Just read him as he is, and if you find scumminess in his actions, then we'll lynch the fool.

You are all wrapped up in head claims and policy lynches, and I expect LOADS more from a hydra of two very intelligent people.

However, the rest of your case on Antilles is pretty compelling.

I'll worry about what I want to worry about, and right now that's a pair of people who are being purposefully obstructionist to the town's understanding of the game. And there's a difference between them being scummy and being anti-town. One is an indication of alignment. The other is an indication of being hurtful to town. He is definitely the latter. He may be the former. But scummy is a lot harder to read than anti-town at this point in the game.

So with that in mind I turn to this: what lynch helps town win in the end more? This game is one that is played over the course of many lynches (minimum 5 for a town win, minimum 7 for a scum win, maximum ~12). The longer he sits and actively hurts us, the more of those lynches are tainted by an unhelpful presence. If you're playing this game from the start as a series of one off scum hunting chances you're not playing the game to win. Most people see that you need to look backwards in a game to determine lynches, but you should absolutely look forward too.

Because here's the thing. We're not on his wagon because he's a bad player and there's a vague idea that maybe policy lynching him will make him a better one. It's not even just "we need to vote him so he'll post more." Both of those things take some effort on his part that we may or may not be able to expect from him. No, this is a SIMPLE thing he could do to help the town. So his refusal to do so is willingly done.

And just to reiterate here: just because he's being lynched because he's anti-town rather than fully scummy doesn't somehow magically make him more likely to be town.

---
Anyway, to return to the points you like: why not vote the guy for those then?

[OtterHorse]

Human Destroyer and Bulbazak feel town.

why?

[OtterHorse]

I'll worry about what I want to worry about, and right now that's a pair of people who are being purposefully obstructionist to the town's understanding of the game. And there's a difference between them being scummy and being anti-town. One is an indication of alignment. The other is an indication of being hurtful to town. He is definitely the latter. He may be the former. But scummy is a lot harder to read than anti-town at this point in the game.

NO

NO

RAINBOW THIS IS DUMB.

That actually wasnt me. Look at all the good spelling and use of apostrophies, when has that ever been me?

Now, I actually dont disagree with it completely. I have been in about five hydras at this point, the only one where I didnt claim heads was when I was scum, and that was entirely intentional. The only reason I didnt claim heads was because I was scum there, so yes, it can be a scumtell and at worse is an anti-town tell to refuse to do such.

Antilles is still a good scumpick even if you ignore the heads thing because of how he is really not commenting on much. In just a few posts he manages to

1) Say he is done with RVS and not lay down a vote
2) Vaguely fished for an AA policy lynch
3) Call KBW scummy (maybe?) and refuse to vote
4) Completely misinterpret what I called him scum for and not respond to the correction

He is just floating around making general game read affirmations.

So while I may not be entirely on the same track as zoraster is, not head claiming IS something that is more likely to come from scum than town. Town has nothing to gain from it (still not heard what town has to gain from refusal) but scum can use it to pick up advantages. When Antilles is scummy for other reasons, I fully support our vote there (or on KBW, TAM and serra).

We are having trouble actually being able to communicate though, so maybe this can get fixed a bit when we finally are on AIM at the same time or something.

[OtterHorse]

@Robo - Townslips (like any town tell) decrease in validity as the game progresses and they are pointed out because at that point they are able to be replicated by scum as the know what to be doing. Take my VT tell which I know you know, it only works on the first occurance, and its less accurate when its somepony who knows the tell because its replicable in most secnarios. This tell is a mild one, but Titans slip is so much better for a town tell (coupled with other Titan-town tells). What Klick said is true, if I was scum here I would have been pressuring somepony who was on the weak end of a scumteam to make a comment like that just to try and get a cleared out of it.

We really should be lynching Antilles who continues to really avoid the game. TAM is great too as is KBW.

Vote TAM

Not sure on MO really. Its more of a null read and his recent posts are more bringing up policy/blacklist thoughts more than anything alignment wise at this point.

[OtterHorse]

@OtterHorse: What's your opinion of TUA?

Null-scum for me, no clue on other half of this 'hydra'. I would be fine enough with the lynch but I think a lot of it is "NC is just horrible at this game" more than anything else. Kinda reminds me of when I hydra'd with Whiskers a long time ago, one competent player who has to try and bail out their other half.

TAM/Antilles/KBW are just far superior for all being scummy AND anti-town/VI/etc.

[OtterHorse]

if I was scum here I would have been pressuring somepony who was on the weak end of a scumteam to make a comment like that just to try and get a cleared out of it.

Scum don't have daytalk.

Always feel scum should in nightless games given natural town balance of them...

Anyways my point about they could be (and I would encorage such) them to be faked holds.

[OtterHorse]

LOL

You suck RBD

I wish I could say that was an epic joke, especially because its my kind of humor.

TAM lynch can be the conselation prize though.

who's RBD?

[OtterHorse]

So apparently im flying solo. From having to replace out of games that I didnt want to replace out of but needed to, TAM is telling the truth about not having time here.

Also TUA might legitimately be scum and just not NC-bad from that last post. Great part is if TUA is scum he is bussing KBW as that vote is massively out of place given how he is playing the game.

unvote
Vote TUA

He is making a whole lot of posts that have some sort of backing, even though most of what he argues is theory on hydras (which he still never proved wrong), then his KBW vote is out of left field. Despite having scumtells laid out, he jumps of "fluffy posting" with the KBW vote and ironically, goes on a week long fluff rampage where he actually has only menitoned KBW once again for lurking (despite him not being on the site for almost a week) and for fluff posting while COMPLETELY ignoring other players who are posting next to nothing/fluff.

This "selective scumhunting" in his own terms is something that he says is a scumtell, and when he doesnt call anypony else who is doing it (noteable AA and Antilles), it actually reads like scum who is trying hard to get on the KBW lynch. Maybe auto-assuming bussing isnt right, but it feels like its more motivation that "scumtell" to be on the wagon, he is specifically choosing KBW for some underlying reason (like TUA is scum and he is going for the mislynch/bus).

@Titan - TAM gets kicked to more or less null from this since it really seems like time issue more than anything alignment motivated. There are points where players are obviously just not keeping up and then fall through and this feels more like one of them.

[OtterHorse]

Who are these other players that are "posting next to nothing"?

The "doing nothing" crew for this game:

TAM, KBW, Antilles.

If you want to throw in Serra (nothing game related) an Reek (standard flake) those are easily argueable.

TUA is scum though, the entire response to my case is basically a brush off and trying to just hold out to deadline.

@AA - You should vote TUA. As far as I can tell your vote on KBW is "policy" given your list and TUA is very lynchable. Also your list is awesome, a couple swaps and thats what im looking at.

[OtterHorse]

Really TUA needs to die right about now. His vote on MO basically is nail in the coffin, its exceedingly blatant self-preservation and OMGUS when you consider that he haddent even mentioned MO was back on page 8 for having "iffy posting".

@Nero head - Do you think being selective on who you call tells on is a scumtell?

[OtterHorse]

@Nero head - Do you think being selective on who you call tells on is a scumtell?

I do, do you?[/quote]

Then you are scum by your own logic for picking out KBW and jumping on that wagon ignoring all the other lurky/fluff posters. I mean, why didnt you vote Antilles there? TAM?

Only thing different there is KBW was being voted by others and aruged as a decent policy lynch.

[OtterHorse]

kbw, TAM, Ant...regardless of who I voted you'd of said the same thing. But honestly? I saw someone say something about KBW, I isoed him and that was terrible and wanted that dead. Its the truth but you are aren't going to believe me anyways so w/e.

Not if you made the distinction of one over the others. When you dont mention them, especially when they get votes, thats where it feels like you are picking KBW for "reasons" and that he is the popular wagon appears to be it.

@KBW - She is still calling you scum. She is calling MO town.

I would still be somewhat okay with a KBW lynch on policy here. Really in a game like this where we are out ahead from page one I think scum or town he drops our win chance a bit.

[OtterHorse]

Sadly thats really Key regardless of alignment. He is one of those players that really seems like they dont care/try. For that reason though (as I already said) im beyond fine policy lynching him as I seriously think him dying right here increases our win chances no matter what he flips.

Vote KBW

[OtterHorse]

Why do you want to waste your vote on PL, i thought you want to lynch Antilies or UA, what happened to that?

Because no matter what KBW is him being alive hurts town win chance. He is that poor of a player.

[OtterHorse]

Finishing move

Vote TUA

[OtterHorse]

Key is, and should be the days lynch. But I'm going to bed, see you guys tomorrow if we're not lynched yet.

Yet he was town a couple of pages ago.

huh

[OtterHorse]

Can we all go back to voting TUA before somepony messes up them being lynched purality?

[OtterHorse]

UNVOTE: TUA
VOTE: MO

I like TUA's staying in fighting against the lynch.

I would almost be fine quick lynching Jen if thats an option. While TUA is best avaiable lynch, Jen might almost be at the point where she is passing Antilles for scummiest.

[OtterHorse]

I find it interesting that Otterhorse/MM/RachMarie call me scum for changing my vote, yet we don't even know how the flip is going to turn out (or even who will flip!)

Also, if you're going to call me scum for changing my vote, show me where only scum ever change their vote last minute.

Wow you are scum.

Really MO-scum is only way I probably wont vote you first post day two, and not only do I think thats not the flip we would get from him - im not going to be letting him get lynched if I have anything to say about it.

You replaced one of my top scum reads, since then you really havent done anything that makes me think you are town and quite a few things reinforce this.

Namely its the way you went about the TUA wagon. At first its a vote on him INSTEAD of KBW (who I was expecting a vote from you on if you were town) because KBW is V/LA (like that matters in this setup) when you have in the past called KBW a scumpick but not even mentioned TUA.

Then you shift to trying to justify your vote and it seems to fall under "You are confusing" more than "you are scummy". Im not sure you actually give any real reasoning for him to be scum more than dislike of lack fo hydra communication. The whole time you again ignore KBW.

Actually buck it.

If you are scum TUA actually has a decent chance of being town. However either of you or TUA being scum still leaves KBW as a good scumpick, which when you compound that with him being scummy and almost the perfect definition of a policy lynch...

Vote KBW

We need to lynch him today. Jen/Serra is scum, like almost for sure scum here to the point where even I would consider a vig shot (which if anypony knows me is stunningly strong scum read level).

Also if its still just me I may replace myself so I dont have to long onto a "hydra" to keep making posts. Im not interested in saying active on three accounts at once.

[OtterHorse]

So you're calling Jennifer almost definite scum yet voting KBW?

I may be able to pull at strings quite a bit but im not too sure I actually can make that happen in under 12 hours with the activity and considering that there is not much inital momentum there. KBW is a lynch that is still an awesome one and really the flip from him as no bearing on what my read is on Jen, if we had another week we could talk, but part of this game is about opimizing what can be done.