NY 163: Void Mountain of the Nightless Temple (Game Over)

[Bulbazak]

@Titan Another waller, eh?

Serious point, though: If the five infiltrators entered with the six new priests, shouldn't we just lynch all six and be done with it? Food for thought.

[Bulbazak]

@BT You're right. We obviously don't pay attention.

Vote Bulbazak

Discuss.

[Bulbazak]

Always willing to try something new Robo. Feeling a little better about you. Call it gut.

I propose an all hydra town block.

I'm not sure what to make of this. Some clarification would be nice.

[Bulbazak]

Got what I wanted.

Vote BT

[Bulbazak]

My next question was going to be how you expect scum to react to a town self-vote.

Couple of things:

1.) I'd expect scum to be drawn to it in certain ways. The most obvious would be to vote in the hopes of an easy lynch. Another way would be to cast suspicion on the vote without actually voting for the person who self-voted. In fact, drawing a lot of attention to the self vote would be ideal for scum, whether they are on the wagon or not. That's why a self vote can be a good way to judge reactions.

Let's take you, for instance. Your voting habits thus far have been very opportunistic. You jumped on the first wagon available without much of a reason of your own. Then when my self vote starts garnering a lot of attention, you choose that opportunity to vote, after criticizing others' reasons for doing so. In other words, you tried to have your cake and eat it too. You can't join a wagon and distance yourself from it at the same time. It doesn't work like that.

Regardless, this was something new that I wanted to try, and I got quite a few leads from it. 4 people bit, and I believe 1-2 of those are town. Going to start with the scummiest and work my way from there, starting with BT.

2.) "A town self-vote"? Sounds like you're in the know, which you shouldn't be, unless you're scum.

[Bulbazak]

I'm calling both of your votes opportunistic.

[Bulbazak]

UA, AA9 voting for you is not a good reason to believe she is scum. That is null at best. And having played with her before, she is playing incredibly town here. I'm not sure how to feel about your read posts. They just feel off somehow. Suffice to say, I have a gut scum read of you.

[Bulbazak]

How does it feel to be scum?

[Bulbazak]

Yes, because that's what you do. You sit down, type it out, look at it, and then post. Is there a problem with playing the game?

I responded to UA's series of read posts, precisely because I felt that they felt off. AA9 is not the greatest player in the world, but that's just the way she plays. Once you get that, there's a real honesty in her posts that is very tangible as town. Therefore, I have a strong town read on her. My scum read on UA is mainly gut at the moment, but it's fairly strong. My scum read on you is due to the opportunistic nature of your votes, and the way you tried to trivialize my earlier post to UA. I see nothing pro-town from any of your posts. Period. I could go on, but I don't feel like giving a full list of reads at this time.

Suffice it to say, RVS is over. Let's lynch some scum.

[Bulbazak]

I've played with AA9 as town, and she feels even more town in this game than in that one.

I believe that discussion is very pro-town, but then you'd know that if you had read my meta.

[Bulbazak]

First:

Unvote

I believe I understand how BT plays better now...

ArcAngel - SCUM AS ALWAYS

Bulbazak - Scummy

Everyone else - town as of so far

That's seriously all you've gotten out of the game so far? Please explain.

UA, AA9 voting for you is not a good reason to believe she is scum. That is null at best. And having played with her before, she is playing incredibly town here.

AA9 scumread is gut. Voting for a hydra is one thing. Voting for a hydra when they've done nothing to distinguish themselves from the other hydras, with the justification of it being a hydra, is entirely another. Voting for a hydra for being a hydra and giving an additional reason for why

that

hydra would be fine, but that's not what happened. It shows potentially-selective-scumhunting. Hence, the callout on AA9 being scum.

That vote was an RVS vote. There was no selective scumhunting there, because there was no scumhunting yet, BECAUSE IT WAS FREAKING RVS! It is a null tell. Get over yourself and find some actual scum.

Oh. Forgot this. The bad posts from BT:

Because town do also do it sometimes "for the lols" or "for reactions, derp". Which is why scum feel that they can get away with it and why it needs to be forcibly eradicated. I don't mind whether you call it a policy lynch or just a lynch if that makes you feel better but it is a pro-scum move that should be punished with a lynch.

ChannelDelibird, ChannelDelibird, it rhymes with ChannelDeliturd.

It's not as horribly anti-town as you're making it out to be. Are you one of those players that go "PL PL" over something meh like this instead of useless and/or consistently anti-town play as a whole?

It wasn't until your next post that you voted for yourself, which makes your self vote look like a self conscious attempt to not vote someone else.

Don't get this. Why is this true as a second post and not as a first post?

UNVOTE: VOTE: Bulbazak

Bad vote, bad logic, questioning Titan who is a townread.

Knowing how he plays, the vote wasn't bad, his logic was spot on, and questioning a townread does not automatically equal scum. And I wouldn't go as far as to say that Titan is an unquestionable townread.

Vote Titan

His attack on the self-vote, yet avoidance of the wagon screams scum.

[Bulbazak]

Raise your hand if you read me as town

I won't be raising my hand at all if you keep avoiding discussion.

Titan, answer HD and Serra, why the Rach vote?

P-Edit: You've got to be kidding me...

AA9, don't fall for scum again. BT is looking for reactions, not sheeping. It made sense after our back and forth. BT is town. Titan is scum. Get on board.

[Bulbazak]

BT, what's so scummy about Ms. Marangal's post?

[Bulbazak]

Got anything more substantial than that?

[Bulbazak]

I was about to say, I didn't remember a Cerulean in this game.

Now onto the meat of this post. I HATE people treating me like I'm stupid or don't know what I'm doing because of how long I've been playing this game. I know exactly what I'm doing, thank you very much. My self-vote gave me plenty of information. Robo's vote was due to him wanting to self-vote. It's not alignment indicative, although the way he said it gave me a slight town vibe. I had already ruled Reek's vote as null for precisely the reasons you pointed out. I took note of your dislike for the move, but reluctance to vote, which I saw as scummy, but it might be because one of your heads are so far up your own self glorified butt that the other is spending their precious time trying to fish it out. My conversation with BT gave me plenty of insight into his alignment and play, and he is therefore a solid town read. The move also succeeded in getting us out of RVS to do some actual scumhunting. So don't get on your pedestal and tell me that I'm just a lowly noob who doesn't know what he's doing and shouldn't be in this game (And yes, I KNOW you didn't outright say it, but it was implied).

We might dance later, but for now, I'm going to keep my vote where it is until I have some time to cool off.

[Bulbazak]

OMG I'm about to freaking ragequit!

Why? No one is really voting you, and you've done nothing to indicate that you might not be scum. Do some scumhunting, and people might start looking elsewhere.

[Bulbazak]

Ok, first I want to apologize for my play thus far. Normally I'm a lot better at logically dissecting posts, but I seem to have started off with the wrong tactic. I wanted to try something new with the self-vote, but while it did eventually lead to some reads, it did so in a roundabout way. I doubt I'm going to use this gambit again, just because of how troublesome it is in the long run.

Now on to the meat of this post. I took some time to go back over the game and try to see the big picture. The following are my reads thus far:

Reek - Null. As has been pointed out before, his thoughts on a self-vote policy lynch are not indicative of alignment. He really hasn't done anything else.

Human Destroyer - Town. He came out strong questioning people's motives and actively scumhunting. Seriously, he's posting town like crazy.

Antilles - Leaning Scum. They really haven't posted much besides prod dodges. Otherwise they are being really defensive about being voted for without adequately dissecting the reasons for the votes or the voters themselves. I also did not like their post #111. It did not feel genuine.

Titan - Town. As much as I dislike Titan at the moment, that gigantic wall and the reaction to my post reads town. Going back over the thread, it is now easy to read the towniness in their posts. It's something you have to get used to I guess...

Ms. Marangal - Leaning Town. Her early posts had little to no content. However, her more recent posts give me a town vibe. I expect her to get more lively as the game progresses.

The Acting Method - Leaning Scum. He really hasn't posted anything content-wise, but I have a hard time believing he can't follow what's going on. What this shows me is an unwillingness to read while still trying to make it appear like he has. That's a scum trait to me.

BT - Town. BT unvoted me after asking about how I feel about discussion when it comes to finding scum. I had a hard time rectifying that with a scum mindset. If he was scum, he would have rode the Bulbazak wagon hard, especially with all the attention I was getting with the self-vote. Unvoting because of that reason does not make sense as scum. Therefore, I read him as town. His voting habits make sense once you realize he's trying to get reads on his nulls, and he's using votes to do that. He's an active voter. That's his playstyle, and while I may not always agree, to each his own when it comes to catching scum.

Serrapaladin - Town. He's asking the right questions and actively scumhunting. Plus his posts give me town vibes to boot.

The Underachivers - Leaning Town. I checked out Mastin's wiki after BBMolla called me Mastin 2.0 in Newbie 1333. It seems that he has a habit of making bad calls when it comes to reads. Therefore, I really can't use that as a scum tell. I also find him overjustifying his scumtells on AA9 and Otter to be townish. It just feels genuine. I don't like them freaking out about the possibility of being lynched. While no one wants to be lynched, scum is more likely to freak out in that matter than town. Them having bad luck with being lynched early in past games might explain it, but this is the reason why I'm not calling them full on town.

Keybladewielder - Scum. His posts lack content. His reads were fake. And the immediacy of that post after the one where he said he was going to catch up shows that he was not truly reading.

Robocopter87 - Leaning Town. I got some town vibes off of his post #21. However, I'm disliking his lack of content, although I'm getting a feeling this is part of his playstyle. Would like to see more of him before I will completely call him town.

Klick - Town. I've seen some real town motivation in his more recent posts.

Metal Overlord - Leaning Scum. Most of their posts were arguing with UA about hydra head claiming. All it did was take up space and did nothing to help in the scumhunting. While I did like their postion on me and my self-vote after my outburst, I don't believe that to be a towntell by itself. In all probability, probably buddying. To top it off, they have recently been advocating a policy lynch, which would be an easy mislynch for scum.

Otterhorse - Scum. Most of their posts have been about theory or setup. Other than that, they've been advocating strongly for a policy/utility lynch. Their admonishment of me after mine and Titan's back and forth does not feel genuine at all, and feels like more of an attempt to discredit me and any future arguments I might have. That's a strong scumtell with me. Their reads also do not feel genuine at all. It is more like they took a list of people who fell in the scum or null category and threw them together as a lynch list. I will say this is the only scumread that doesn't completely mesh with the others. Should we lynch Otter and they flip scum, I will need to reexamine everything to see who is more likely to be scum.

Rach Marie - Null. Almost forgot her. So far she really hasn't posted anything that is alignment indicative. She has promised a reads list, so I'm going to wait until she posts that, as I feel that will give me a better handle on her alignment.

Arcangel9 - Town. As I've said, I've played with her before, and she is playing crazy town.

All that being said...

Unvote

Vote Otterhorse

I really can't bring myself to vote anyone else.

[Bulbazak]

HD, why is setup spec filler when Serra does it, but not when Otter does it?

[Bulbazak]

Most of Otter's posts have either been about setup spec, trying to get Antilles's heads to claim, or about policy lynching someone. How is that towny at all?

[Bulbazak]

Rach, deadline is not this Monday, but the Monday after. Key will be back in plenty of time, although I doubt we'll notice.

[Bulbazak]

Waiting for that reads list from Rach...

[Bulbazak]

Actually, that brings up a good question: TAM, why do you care what people think anyway?

[Bulbazak]

Robo, that's all that Otter's posts have been about. Some players have wanted policy lynches because they felt such and such person would be a hinderance to the town if they were not scum. However, Otter just wants to policy lynch for the sake of policy lynching. That, and their "scumhunting" posts have not read as genuine. This is why I have my vote on them in the first place.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote The Acting Method

Yeah, I can get behind this one. I'm no longer leaning scum on TAM, he's now a full on scumread. He's not participating. He's not contributing to discussion. I have a hard time rectifying that with a town mindset.

[Bulbazak]

The Underachivers - Leaning Town. I checked out Mastin's wiki after BBMolla called me Mastin 2.0 in Newbie 1333. It seems that he has a habit of making bad calls when it comes to reads. Therefore, I really can't use that as a scum tell. I also find him overjustifying his scumtells on AA9 and Otter to be townish. It just feels genuine. I don't like them freaking out about the possibility of being lynched. While no one wants to be lynched, scum is more likely to freak out in that matter than town. Them having bad luck with being lynched early in past games might explain it, but this is the reason why I'm not calling them full on town.

This is one of your reads I'd like you to expand on further. Yes, in the Posh mafia game, they got mislynched day one. However, neither of the heads of that hydra are early mislynch bait, so some of their posts read fake. What did you think about them thinking that BT was degraded from town to null partially for questioning me about you but not questioning you about your scum read on us? Mastin said he was going to do what he could to keep them from being lynched, but actually hasn't done anything. And Nero's not some idiot who can't post, but he's not doing anything.

As an aside, how people react to being lynched is personality based most of the time. For instance, I react far more negatively to being voted and possibly lynched as town than I do as scum. But their reaction on the whole is pretty weird.

I would say when it came to my read that I was influenced with what I read in Mastin's wiki. I got the general impression that he wasn't good when it came to reads, which excused much of what I had a problem with. The BT thing was bad, as I pointed out at the time, but it's similar to the bad call that Mastin made on AA9. Not calling me out is strange. Normally I would just think that they missed it, but you raised such a big stink over my vote that I'm surprised they didn't say anything. That could make the read on BT a method to possibly buddy up with you. I will admit that their town read of you just felt off, as I didn't regard you as town at the time.

The big reason that I didn't place them as full on town was because of the way they reacted to being voted. They were in no danger of being lynched, yet they freaked out, which I'm just having a hard time rectifying with a town mindset. Personally, I'd like to see what they do the rest of the day and then come back to my read d2. I can give you an update then if you want.

Otterhorse - Scum. Most of their posts have been about theory or setup. Other than that, they've been advocating strongly for a policy/utility lynch. Their admonishment of me after mine and Titan's back and forth does not feel genuine at all, and feels like more of an attempt to discredit me and any future arguments I might have. That's a strong scumtell with me. Their reads also do not feel genuine at all. It is more like they took a list of people who fell in the scum or null category and threw them together as a lynch list. I will say this is the only scumread that doesn't completely mesh with the others. Should we lynch Otter and they flip scum, I will need to reexamine everything to see who is more likely to be scum.

This is another one I'd like you to expand on. I like this scum read of yours because I don't think anyone but theunderachivers has given this scum read, but i wonder how much is based on strongly disliking the policy lynch aspect of their play. Why doesn't his admonishment feel genuine? The thing that is difficult is that this play concerning policy/utility lynch is how rainbow actually legitimately feels, so it's not out of the ordinary. Also, I tend to play a more emotionally driven game whereas rainbowdash is more logically driven so the reads and the reasons sometimes don't match up...if that makes sense.

With as soon as their admonishment came after your post and my reaction, it felt like they were seizing that opportunity to completely discredit another player. A post like that tends to be emotionally driven in a way, no matter how logical. It makes it easy to judge intent. That's why I got a town read off of your wall, even though I was ticked off. However, I didn't get any such read when I read Otter's admonishment. It felt wooden and devoid of life.

However, now that Zoraster has posted in the hydra, I'm beginning to think that this all just may be a playstyle clash between me and Rainbowdash. Zoraster comes across as genuine, and while I might not agree with everything he says, I can at least see where he's coming from. As I said, Otter was the one scumread that didn't fit. All my other scumreads I could see working together, but I didn't get that from Otter at all. That's why I said that if Otter flipped scum that I'd have to reread everything when it came to forming reads.

@ Antilles you are going to have to do better than that. As for the whole they want to remain secret, that is null tell. And yeah I have no clue who they are cause NS won't tell me. So lets drop that part of the argument and focus on the hydra's posts and not worry about meta. It is a distraction. I find it rather interesting though, that right after a major wall about him, Antilles shows up and throws out two names saying they feel town. That looks like active lurking. No reasoning given, so we have no clue how they came to the conclusion that the two mentioned players are town. That is scummy.


MM we know you think TAM is scum, but you are tunneling, what about the rest of the players?

UA WTF??? What is your reasoning.

TAM knows full well that I willing to give just about everyone the benefit of the doubt, though he's been bothering me for a while with his not answering questions and stuff

other then TAM though, KBW, UA, and Possibly Bulba would be good picks IMO

I would like more from MO though, and Serra is quieter then what I'm used to... BT is Meh, so is Klick, Otter, Antilles and Reek,

Robo, I feel is town same with you

and everyone else I have no impression on one way or another

What is your reasoning behind those reads?

[Bulbazak]

Also, Rache, whatever happened to your reads list?

[Bulbazak]

Personally, the only reason I want Antilles lynched is because he's been extremely anti-town. Plus I hear Chkflip might be part of the hydra, and that's a good enough reason for me.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, don't really care for Chk. However, if I was to vote for Antilles at this point, it'd have nothing to do with my dislike for Chk.

[Bulbazak]

What do you mean "such as BT"? I have BT as a town read, thank you very much.

[Bulbazak]

I was referring to this quote, didn't read much into your later posts. here, it seemed like you were trying to accuse him of making a "scum slip"

I thought it was a scum slip. He corrected me.

[Bulbazak]

What's wrong with being suspicious of someone due to their call of a policy lynch?

[Bulbazak]

To be fair, that's mostly all that Otter has done.

[Bulbazak]

Ok, just finished reading the thread over, will move onto ISOs in a second for more accurate reads, but so far Under and Antilles are seeming scummy, though a decent part of that is simply because of the position on anonymous Hydras. This isn't an anonymous game, if it were, I have no problems, however, it isn't, so get with the program. Titan leas scum slightly, but I could easily see them coming back. HD is definitely town, could just be since I got him lynched ftl in my last game, but I doubt it. BT, Robo, and AA also seem to be town, but I'd like to see more from the latter and Klick. I believe everybody else reads neutral, or at least I didn't notice anything in particular, including with TAM. From what I understand, it's a playstyle, and while unlikely, it is possible to just not have opinions. Perhaps the ISO will say differently?

@Mod, I unvoted HD long, long ago, and changed to Under.

I am strongly in favor of Policy lynches. To me, if you have the time for it, a policy lynch should be a way to hit the people who are hard to read, and who you wouldn't be able to tell normally. You eliminate them, provided nobody else seems to be scum more then them, on the off chance that they are scum. However, in this game, outside of Key, TAM, or Antilles, I don't see any options, and aside from Key, I don't think any options are really good.

Also, on a final note, LOL at my other head complaining about quality. You're not one to talk, shush.

First, says 3 people are scummy. 2 because they support hydra anonymity (translation: Policy Lynch), and Titan for magical reasons. He then ends it with 10 nulls. Seriously, you don't have any opinion on over half the players in the game?! He then says that not having an opinion is okay in a game about thoughts and opinions. And finally, he concludes that policy lynches are the way to go and we should PL the crap out of this game.

Yeah...this guy's scum.

Unvote

Vote Metal Overlord

[Bulbazak]

Klick, why is Reek such a strong townread? They really haven't said much, besides that part at the beginning of wanting to policy lynch me. I see them as a null read. Is there something I'm missing?

[Bulbazak]

Arguing over a town slip? Yeah, MM is definitely town.

All of MO's reads are based off of playstyle and not scumtells. It feels manufactured. It looks as if its only purpose is to placate town. Also, those reads do not match his previous post of reads on which I originally questioned him about.

[Bulbazak]

Titan, I don't think it was an inconsistency. I think she just forgot to add you to her reads list. That almost happened with I created mine earlier in the game. Rache was the unlucky one iirc.

[Bulbazak]

All of MO's reads are based off of playstyle and not scumtells. It feels manufactured. It looks as if its only purpose is to placate town. Also, those reads do not match his previous post of reads on which I originally questioned him about.

Well obviously it was manufactured, the whole point of it was to keep MS here from being lynched.

So...not for scumhunting. Gotcha. Also, you were in no danger of being lynched. Explanation rejected.

Also, the question is, based on the reads, what do you assume my alignment is?

Scum.

The point was not to find scum, it was to see how things looked and if anything in particular stuck out.

Your reads list was not to find scum... Fascinating...

Then I moved on to ISOs, balancing with the context I would have obtained from the thread.

Except if you had read through the thread, you would have gotten all the context you needed. Thus, those reads should have been all that was needed. Fact of the matter is, you went about it backwards. ISOs are nice, because they give you a bit of overview on a person's actions without reading through the thread. They're good time-wise for getting quick reads or going over your reads. However, if you want the best reads possible, you go through the entire thread, because then you get everything in context. However, you're claiming to have done the opposite: looking at context for preliminary reads and then without to finalize. Like I said, backwards. Sounds like someone got caught.

I don't know about you, but I see absolutely zero question. You have one question mark, but no questions.

And what's your point?

And, in case you missed it, I didn't say I had null reads, I said people read neutral. It's an important distinction considering I specifically said I planned on posting farther.

No there isn't, unless you're saying that we have a neutral party in the game, which is impossible given the setup. Therefore, null and neutral mean the exact same thing.

Also, the post wasn't made to "answer your questions" they were made since the original part was incomplete, and didn't fully accomplish what I wished.

And yet you add this:

@Bulbazak, anything else you'd like to add, or you done? Nothing? Alright, thanks, tell me if there is.

Sounds like town pacification to me.

You say that my reads seem based more on playstyle then scumslips. I'm sorry, but how does that make them any less valid, at least when I consider content and content quality as part of playstyle? Also, I happened to see any scumslips that could be called such, I believe I pointed them out.

Not scumslips. Scumtells. Two different things. Scumtells are what we use to hunt scum and are the basis of our reads. Yet, you never judged anyone's alignment base on scumtells of any kind. It was entirely based off of playstyle, which makes it read fake.

Can we please lynch this guy now?

Going to be catching up in page by page epic wall style. See you guys soon...

[Bulbazak]

Page 17:

BT, not reacting to a vote is not a scumtell. I've seen town do it as well, especially, as in the case of your vote, when there's nothing there to respond to. If town feels that the vote is "baseless", they sometimes tend to ignore it and continue in the scumhunting effort, especially if it's not really applying pressure (ie. that's the only vote).

I don't really get your tunneling on MM. Much of what you think is fabricated actually reads genuine to me. I actually think you have problems with her playstyle, rather than having found genuine scumminess. You ask what the difference is between MM's reads and MO's reads. The difference is that MM's reads being generalized fit in with the way she has been posting. You ask for an explanation, and she gives it. MO's reads being generalized, on the other hand, did not fit with the way they had been posting at all. In that regard, they stood out like a sore thumb. I do like how you came over to the MO wagon. That's the better lynch.

As for voting me, I'm curious, what do you hope to gain from it? Actual lynch, in which case how to you justify this slot, which has at least given something to go off of, over ones which have done nothing or next to nothing? And if it's simply for pressure, well, k, gl with that.

Look at that beautiful deflection. "Why do you want to lynch me? What about those lurkers over there? They're scummier than I am." To be honest, I'd rather lynch someone that I am pretty sure is going to be scum due to scumtells, slips, etc., than a lurker who has a high probability of being scum. The active scum has the potential to cause more damage, whereas lurker scum does not. Plus, in the eventuality the lurker is town, there is always the possibility that they could actually get active and be a benefit to the town. So yeah, I want you lynched more than I do TAM.

Finished with 17. On to 18.

[Bulbazak]

You prioritize making your slot look better / keeping MS from being lynched over scumhunting.

Exactly this. This is why I believe MO to be scum. Protecting yourself and trying to make yourself look better instead of scumhunting is not a town trait. EVER.

Robo's reads here are a little weak. I would honestly expect more from someone who's keeping up with the game. However, unlike similar read lists, Robo's do feel genuine and fit with his overall style. And while I am not the biggest fan of such a style, that does not mean that Robo is scum. In fact, he tends to be quite helpful when he wants to. I'd still like more though.

Are you hopeful that I'm only trying to pressure you? That's cringe-worthy. I think you're scum and you're reading the justification.

Honestly, no, at this point pressuring seems kinda stupid, two votes and I'm active etc. However, compared to other options, I think my lynch would be really dumb, and so trying to figure out why you're seriously going for it.

Look, AtE and deflection all in one nice package.

Serra and I are OBV Scum buddies, and he's trying to protect me <3

and my reads are weak because I'm coasting,

looking for stuff to attack.

I can be passive, and I can be aggressive, but I feel like being passive especially since the only thing I'm feeling strongly about ATM is TAM

other then that BT, you don't really have a case against me.

I am noting your seemingly buddying up to Bulbazak though

and the last time I heard the phrase "this is to easy" it came from scum...

I'm defintely not seeing Rach as scum, and if I had to defend someone, it'd probably be her.

First, I do not like that phrasing. That is not town phrasing at all, and it is seriously making me doubt my town read on you.

Second, I say "This is too easy..." all the time. It means nothing alignment-wise. Afterwards, I normally go over and cry in the corner because of scum not providing a challenge.

Finished 18. On to 19.

[Bulbazak]

MO, I'm catching up as fast as I can, but I'm suffering from a bit of a fever atm, so I don't know how long that will be.

[Bulbazak]

Apparently there's some poking going on. I'll get to this game tomorrow when I'm (hopefully) feeling better.

[Bulbazak]

Page 19:

Sorry MS, but Cool Story Bros. Lynch me. I want you all to know what it's like to be wrong. GL mafia, but with this lot, you have nothing to fear.

Look at the beautiful AtE.

who's RBD?

Swag?

Hacking has died down enough to get back to the chaos that is this game. Overall not much on page 19. On to page 20.

[Bulbazak]

Page 20:

Except if you had read through the thread, you would have gotten all the context you needed. Thus, those reads should have been all that was needed. Fact of the matter is, you went about it backwards. ISOs are nice, because they give you a bit of overview on a person's actions without reading through the thread. They're good time-wise for getting quick reads or going over your reads. However, if you want the best reads possible, you go through the entire thread, because then you get everything in context. However, you're claiming to have done the opposite: looking at context for preliminary reads and then without to finalize. Like I said, backwards. Sounds like someone got caught.

Sounds like noobtown instead of scum to me. I mean, lazy towns probably won't bother to go through the entire thread just to "get everything in context" I probably wouldn't either. Caught for laziness? Yeah. Caught for Scum? Not necessarily.

Except he said that he read through the ENTIRE thread FIRST, to get his basic reads. And THEN he ISO'd everyone to flesh his reads out. My point was that the whole process is backwards. If you have already read through the entire thread, you already have the context you need for your reads. It makes no sense to then go through the ISOs. I'm not saying he's lazy at all. I'm saying he lied.

No there isn't, unless you're saying that we have a neutral party in the game, which is impossible given the setup. Therefore, null and neutral mean the exact same thing.

Bulbazak is right. There are only 2 scum factions in this game; they are either scum, not scum or unknown. Neutral = notsure = unknown = null. But despite this, I fail to see how this is a scumtell.

I never did say it was a scumtell. Your partner just wanted to argue semantics with me. However, as Titan later says, that is suspicious.

I agree that most of your points here are true and accurate, but the problem here is that they aren't scumtells. Not at all. I have seen a majority of (bad) town players guilty of such things, one or another, and once again I repeat that bad play =/= scum. Bad play are grounds for a policy lynch, but you are incorrect that there is mounting evidence and scumtells to lynch me and my other head.


Once again I support you for your attempt at the self-vote and I support you for the useful reads and finger pointing you have done for the town.

I hope we can work together for the town. We would make a great scumhunter team. There are no night kills so I believe it is safe to play my best without fear of sniped in the night.

You're right, bad play does not equal scum, and not all of my points are scumtells, as some were just responses to KX. However, some of the major points that I did bring up ARE scumtells which point to an overall pattern of pacification and deceit. To be honest Metal Sonic, I think I would enjoy playing with you. Maybe next time we're in a game together, you might actually be town. But for now, your attempt to buddy up to me is noted.

Also liking what I see from Jennifer. And I agree with Titan's response to the MO post.

Finished page 20. On to page 21.

[Bulbazak]

Page 21:

I like Titan's call to consolidate lynches, and when I'm done with these catch-up walls, I hope to do just that. Until then, I like my vote where it is.

Still like TAM for scum, but he's replacing (replaced?) out, so I'll reserve judgement for his replacement.

Let the alt think what he wants. Anyone with half a brain knows that I'm actually pretty darn good. I mean yeah, I'm pretty disappointed in myself that I'm having a hard time getting into this game. I promised Tammy a post where I'd yell at folks and I fully intend to see that through.

I'm still waiting... ...you can even yell at me if you want (once and gently) just yell and let me believe you're town, please?

but I lubs you Tammy and don't wanna yell at you. I rather yell at BT for his crap selective scumhunting or Key for being nothing more than a fluffy lurk monster or Robo for his crap vote on me or otterhorse for being a grown man that watches kids cartoons.

However, I hear that "grown man" has lady bits. Willingness to sling dirt noted.

Wrong game, sorry.

I'll catch up tonight.

Big words for someone who's not playing.

Finished page 21. On to page 22.

[Bulbazak]

Page 22:

More scum posting from Antilles.

Nice to see that AA9 is able to distinguish bad play from scum (Well, for the most part.) That being said, I'm still not wild about KBW. If I have to, this would be my consolidation lynch.

Not much more on this page. Moving on...

Page 23:

MO's post #550 is immature. Way to make me want to play with you again guys...

UA's #556 is bad. MO's post has nothing to do with you. The blatant misrep is making UA flare up as real scummy.

MO is probably town based on his extremely obvious desire to not get lynched. I guess he could be trying to get one mislynch through before his death, but it's much more likely that he's town. Other than that, I support this wagon the most by far.

An extreme desire to not get lynched is not a town trait, it's a scum one. While town may not want to get lynched, they view it as an opportunity to catch scum. That means they'll be examining their wagon while they're alive, and if they're about to get lynched, they will try to get their reads out. I'm not saying that town should lie down and take it, but their defense is not going to take the form of "DON'T LYNCH ME!"

And now some notes on DrippingGoofball:

Funny story.

I started to iso the players in the list order and started with Reek and went: "whoa scum!" But I'm replacing Reek and wow, he's town.

You guys should have lynched my player slot on page 3.

I'm not sure what to make of this.

TOWN

DrippingGoofball / Reek (hydra of Channeldelibird and Nexus)
Human destroyer
BT
Bulbazak
Klick
Metal Overlord (hydra of metal sonic and kx)
Arcangel9

LEANING TOWN

Titan (hydra of Ser Arthut Dayne and Tammy
RachMarie
Otterhorse (hydra of zoraster and Rainbowdash)

LEANING SCUM

Serrapaladin
The Underachievers (hydra of Nero Cain and Mastin2)
Robocopter87

SCUM

Antilles
ms. marangal
The Acting Method
Keybladewielder

There's really no reason given for these reads, and I can't help but notice the similarity between the majority of reads list in the town. The obvious exception being MO, who you saw as scum a mere 20 min. before:

Post #550 feels like a scum response to me.

caveat: I have not yet read the game.

Are you saying that in 20 min. you were able to read a 23 page game and adequately develop reads on everybody? And in the same amount of time, switch reads on MO.

why metal overlord is town?

His #384 and #477 are good posting, A lot of firm reads with proper explanations.

And I started with a negative prejudice looking at his ascii fingers reaction. But reading is iso, I think town.

The reasoning for this falls flat here. Posts

#394

and #477 were bad, as I explained when I addressed them both. The reasons given for the reads were weak and were based more off of playstyle than actual scumtells. Essentially, they were thrown together to placate town. Metal Sonic's posting in #477 was essentially an attempt to get me off their back by buddying up to me. Although it was well written, it was just every bit a piece of scumposting as KX's readlist and response was.

I'm reading scumbuddies from these posts. DrippingGoofball is scum, and his readslist is every bit as fake as MO's was. I was really hoping for more here.

Finished page 23. On to page 24.

[Bulbazak]

Readthrough suspended until flip. This should be helpful, because I don't know what to make of the MO/UA interactions.

[Bulbazak]

A couple of notes on pages 24-25 (since they're the same):

AA9 is being incredibly OMGUSy. The RVS accusation from UA had long since passed. There was no need to dwell on it. A whole lot of overreactions, which seems to be how you play. Makes you come off as childish. It might be beneficial to chill out and realize that if people suspect you or correct you, it's not personal. It's just how the game is played. (Overreaction coming in 3...2...1...)

KBW vote switches are bad. The UA one was definitely opportunistic. The DG one was OMGUS. I think I agree with Otter here, regardless of KBW's alignment, she's anti-town and needs to be lynched.

Moving on to page 26.

[Bulbazak]

Page 26:

Not liking Lurker so far. Getting very strong scum vibes from him. This post, especially, screams scum:

I'm not fond of the lurker right now. Might be residue from my feelings of TAM, though his opening post rubs me the wrong way.

Why are you getting any feelings from TAM? Judging from his posts, he was obviously too busy to even play, rendering the whole thing null, maybe a few defenses here and there before he replaced out. It seems more like an unrelenting tunnel than something you've actually thought about. You should probably join one of the main two wagons instead of playing obtuse and continuing a rather unbased line of voting.

Few things: 1.) TAM's posts WERE scummy. He kept making excuses for why he couldn't read, none of which felt genuine. Yet there are several posts that show he was keeping up. What this tells me was that he had no desire to scumhunt, which is scummy. 2.) We actually knew why we were voting TAM. It wasn't something we all just randomly decided to do at one point. 3.) The last sentence can be summarized as "You should stop paying attention to me and join one of the more popular wagons." The end of the sentence attempts to further discredit MM and her reasons for being on his wagon.

Yeah, that slot is scum.

Page 27:

What was I supposed to do, call you and BT scum? I wanted to delay the lynch as long as possible until most players have read my (painstakingly) written #447, which unfortunately you denounced as "scummy", before judging and making the decision to lynch me afterwards.

Yeah, I may have been wrong when I said the entire post was scummy. However, the entire point of that post was to pacify me and dismiss the scumtells I identified, without ever addressing them. So while the post may have been well reasoned and not scummy in and of itself, it's purpose was scummy in that it was to deflect focus away from the previous posts, which were scummy.

Regarding the "reads", although I cannot deny the ones which was posted were manufactured and not really done with the sole intention of helping the town, do note that there are two heads in this hydra, with two different playstyles, and I appeal to you to create a solid read holistically by combining the reads of both heads together, and not just tunneling on a single "scumtell" from one head of what could have been a playstyle quirk.

So now I shouldn't think you're scum, because you're a hydra?

Question for you, bulbazak. Why would you think that I would want to buddy up to you, of all players in this game? I do not deny the "buddying", and in fact I'm glad you noticed it, but there's no scum motivation if I wanted to buddy you for malicious reasons.

As you said, you felt we had similar posting styles, and that you could therefore reason with me, or in this case, talk me down. I was essentially the main proponent of your wagon. By buddying up to me, you were trying to diffuse your wagon without having to deal with the case being presented. It was self preservation, plain and simple.

On to page 28.

[Bulbazak]

Page 28:

Are you saying that in 20 min. you were able to read a 23 page game and adequately develop reads on everybody? And in the same amount of time, switch reads on MO.

I never said my reads were adequately developed. It's a first impression. I much prefer to read people

live

, while I interact with the game.

So if they were all first impression reads, with true reads coming from live experience, why did you drastically change your read on MO, when you developed a scum read of them

live

?

A lot of UA's reads are based on their MO read. Doesn't mean they're false, but just that it's not an accurate way of forming reads. Then again, there are a lot of assumptions flying around. HD's post is just bad assumption-wise. I don't see a UA/MO scumteam at all. I do see a MO/DG scumteam though, which makes DG's actions chainsaw defending.

Finished page 28. On to page 29.

[Bulbazak]

Page 29:

This just shows me the push to lynch UA was incredibly stupid. Their posts are screaming town here. Also, how is everybody missing all that scumposting from DG?

TUA if you're a PR please say so now b/c I'm really considering voting you.

Titan, there are no PRs in this game...

The wall about bussing from Mastin seals it. UA is town. MO/DG/Lurker are scum. Mastin, however, is wrong about Jennifer. She's town looking for a compromise lynch.

Finished page 29. On to page 30.

[Bulbazak]

Page 30:

UA's post #734 looked bad until I found out that it was Nero who posted it, and not Mastin. That being said, this kind of disagreement is something that should be worked out elsewhere, and not in the thread. Otherwise, it can get confusing and may lead to a mislynch.

Page 31:

The DG scumposting is so thick... Seriously, how is no one else seeing this?

AA9 finally gets out of her snit and starts playing. I like this. I want to see more of this. This is good town play.

Page 32:

If TUA flips scum, then I'll entertain AA9-town. If TUA flips town... AA9 eats rope.

Setting up lynches.

Instead, we can focus on Metal Overlord, who aside from KBW and us is the lead wagon for good reason;

This is interesting, if UA flips scum, I'd wager that KBW is scum, too. This looks like

FOS:buddy vote:townie

with the emphasis "vote" on Metal Overlord who would be the townie, and the "FOS" on KBW as expressed in "aside from" pointing to KBW-buddy.

Actually, that's not what they said at all. They said that there were currently 3 wagons: Themselves, KBW, and MO. Out of those 3, they said we should focus on MO, as there are good reasons for the wagon. Seriously DG, these misrep tactics of yours are really bad...

Finished pages 30-32. On to page 33.

[Bulbazak]

Page 33:

Zdenek is giving me the warm town fuzzy feelies. Although that really doesn't surprise me as he replaced BT, and BT was a strong town read.

Hey guys

Since you seem to be too wimpy to lynch anybody, just lynch me and put me out of my misery.

I'm a vanilla townie.

VOTE: DGB

Boo hoo hoo

I want to give Mastin-hydra a little more time

And you know Mastin-hydra will disappear and lurk again and you'll lose focus, spin on your own heels and lynch a townie.

Let that townie be me and let's do it quickly.

Look at all the beautiful AtE.

Finished page 33. Moving on to page 34.

[Bulbazak]

Page 34:

The previous posts were written by KX, which were scummy(in your opinion, nothing is objective here). The post that I had written, was not scummy by itself, but according to the context it is scummy. So basically anything I write to defend myself against the "scummy" posts is a scum post? What do you suggest I do then? Do nothing and let everybody focus on the "scummy" posts?

The way you defended yourself was scummy. At no point do you try to discuss the points or the merits of the case, instead, you try to diffuse the situation and deflect attention away from the case by saying that you cannot be held responsible for your partner's scum posting, which is so antithetical to the game it's not funny.

So now I shouldn't think you're scum, because you're a hydra?

No, what I meant to say was, you should only think I'm scum when you have garnered enough *consistent* evidence on both heads to determine that my slot is scum. For now, you have no definite proof against *me*; your main argument being that my "well-written" post was scummy because it was meant to defend my partner's posts; inextricably linking your scum reads just on my partner alone and through minimal fault of mine. For argument's sake, let's say you indeed have proof and find that my partner is "scummy", but the thing is, it could just be his playstyle you simply just disagree with. Unless you pick up a definite, independent scumtell from my very own posts(my partner's scum posts not withstanding), I believe you do not have enough evidence to judge my slot as scum.

Except your partner committed several definite scumtells that could not be excused by playstyle. Those types of scumtells I would have zeroed in on no matter who committed them. Trying to excuse scum play by saying it's a playstyle is bad and is a no defense defense. Furthermore, your defense of his play was scummy, because it was meant to deflect attention away from the scumtells instead of actually addressing them. Essentially, you didn't want to discuss the actual validity of the case, but dismiss it instead. This is a huge scumtell for me. Finally, you tried to buddy up to me as a way to get me to disregard my case. Buddying IS a scumtell. So don't say that your hydra can't be held responsible for the scum posting from one of its members, because that in and of itself is a relativist fallacy and is scummy.

As you said, you felt we had similar posting styles, and that you could therefore reason with me, or in this case, talk me down. I was essentially the main proponent of your wagon. By buddying up to me, you were trying to diffuse your wagon without having to deal with the case being presented. It was self preservation, plain and simple.

You are good. The only problem which I see in the statement was that you have read my post a bit too late; but by the time you have read it my votecount had decreased from 5 to 3; independent of your reads. How do you explain that?

How does my reading the post too late invalidate my point or the fact that you buddied up to me? Me being late and a change in the vote count doesn't magically change your motives in the past. Seriously, what is this crap?

Note a TUA/Bulbazak or MO/DGB buddying

What is this? Having trouble buddying up to me so you switch tactics? First, I have no need to buddy up with UA, because I could care less what he thinks. I simply noticed in my catch up that he was posting incredibly town. The fact that we have similar reads was an afterthought. Second, even if I was scum, buddying up to UA would be the dumbest thing ever. He's not exactly obv. town, and there's no real reason I'd want him on my side. In fact, buddying up to them as scum would only serve to get me lynched.

I'm going to make this real clear so you don't misunderstand me: Having similar reads as someone or a town read on that person DOES NOT EQUAL BUDDYING! Although, you saying that I'm buddying up to them shows me that you KNOW they're town. It definitely helps my scumread of you.

Yay! I'm all caught up and stuff. I have a few more things I want to check up on, but I like my vote where it is.

[Bulbazak]

Oh, I almost forgot. Rach, whatever happened to those reads that you promised?

[Bulbazak]

I just like your partner better as a lynch. If I'd unvote just to vote you, all I'd be doing would be spreading the votes around and taking pressure off of scum. UA having the majority of the votes does not make me happy, because they're town. What we need is more votes on MO.

[Bulbazak]

UNVOTE: TUA
VOTE: MO

I like TUA's staying in fighting against the lynch.

I would almost be fine quick lynching Jen if thats an option. While TUA is best avaiable lynch, Jen might almost be at the point where she is passing Antilles for scummiest.

Do explain.

Except that "Scumtells" as defined by you are not set in stone. They are not like math or black-and-white, a town player can exhibit many "scumtells" which you have in your book but the slot happens to be town. If you have played enough games, you would have seen this phenomenon before. Simply, either the player sucks or has a playstyle that

disagrees with you

. Assuming that each player in a game is at a decent skill level, no player's playstyle is "bad", but whether they agree, disagree or is neutral with you. If they agree with you, it is a town tell, and if they don't you may see certain "scum tells". Once again I believe in the reality that you simply disagree with my partner's playstyle, so unless you can find evidence against me = both of us, you can't call us definite scum slot. Yes I was buddying with you, I'm glad you saw that.

No that is not how I define "scumtells", and I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I rely on the same scumtells game after game, and they serve me quite well. As such, manufacturing of reads (ie. non-genuine reads) is a scumtell. Lying is a scumtell (I caught KX doing this with the read order thing. It was backward, which means that it was false, which means he was lying.). Doing something for the sole purpose of pacifying town is a scumtell. Trying to deflect the case against you, rather than confronting it, is a scumtell. Attempts to discredit a person or their case is a scumtell. Buddying is a scumtell. Need I go on?

And saying that you are not responsible for all that your slot does is ludicrous. The alignment of your slot does not magically change simply because there are 2 people playing instead of 1. The fact of the matter is that your partner was scummy and was caught. Tough luck. And maybe I backed down a little off the scumminess of your early posts because of how well-written they were. But in the end, posts are judged by the content therein, not by how pretty they are, and once I get past that, your posts are still pretty scummy.

And I have several town reads that don't agree with me, Titan and Klick being two right off the top of my head.

It invalidates it because I was able to get the lynch off me regardless of my buddying of you or not. That said, it means that my buddying with you had little or nothing to do with the case at hand(getting the lynch off me). Why do I need to buddy up to you just to remove 1 vote from my lynch when I have successfully done so by removing 3 from mine independent of your reaction? The fact is I buddied up to you, correct. But wrong answer, the motive was not to get you off my lynch.

That logic is so backwards it hurts. That's the equivalent of saying you didn't beat up someone 3 days ago because you lost your hands NOW. Your actions do not magically change because I didn't comment on those actions until long after they were committed. You buddied up to me to diffuse a wagon and get me on your side. Just because the wagon had diffused when I finally got around to addressing you does not mean that you didn't commit those actions for those reasons.

Did I mention how bad that logic was?

And you claim that DGB is buddying up to me?

Actually, I never said that. Seriously, when did I say that? What I said was that DGB was your scumbuddy and was chainsaw defending you. I beg you to get your facts straight and think things through before you misrep someone.

Seriously, why is everyone letting MO get away with such blatant scumposting? UA is town. MO is scum. Get on the ball.

[Bulbazak]

@MM: Buddying absolutely is a scumtell. Town shouldn't care what anybody thinks of them, and therefore should have no reason to buddy up to somebody. Buddying is getting on somebody's good side for the sole purpose of them liking you and hopefully not lynching you. This goes against town's main objective, which is to scumhunt. However, it plays perfectly with scum's objective, which is to survive at all costs.

Also, lying is something town should never do. Again, town should have no need to be dishonest and to outright fabricate. Can town be secretive? Yes. Should they ever lie? No.

And saying that you are not responsible for all that your slot does is ludicrous. The alignment of your slot does not magically change simply because there are 2 people playing instead of 1. The fact of the matter is that your partner was scummy and was caught. Tough luck. And maybe I backed down a little off the scumminess of your early posts because of how well-written they were. But in the end, posts are judged by the content therein, not by how pretty they are, and once I get past that, your posts are still pretty scummy.

Actually, I never said that. Seriously, when did I say that?

Hmm... How about:

do note that there are two heads in this hydra, with two different playstyles, and I appeal to you to create a solid read holistically by combining the reads of both heads together, and not just tunneling on a single "scumtell" from one head of what could have been a playstyle quirk.

For now, you have no definite proof against *me*

Do you deny that you have mislynched a villager once or more before just because he was exhibiting "scumtells" but wasn't actually scum?

What does this have to do with the case at hand? A few mislynches does not cancel out the successful application of certain scumtells or their validity. This is simply Correlation Implies Causation, which is a logical fallacy. I would like you to address the case by its own merits, and not try to discredit it through some other means.

You do make a decent point about possible confirmation bias. However, that would be true only if I was looking at KX scum, painted the entire slot as that, and argued that with you having no say to dissuade me. But that is not the case. I saw a player, or in this case a hydra, commit a series of scumtells, which I pointed out and voted them for. I did this with no thought whatsoever on which half of the hydra committed the tells, as it was only one slot. You were the one that brought it up and tried to use it as a defense. It's like replacing into a slot and then arguing that your predecessor's scumminess cannot be used against you. This is false, as the slot remains the same regardless of who's playing, and I've successfully lynched players who replaced in a scum slot primarily BECAUSE of their predecessor's scumminess. I recognize that the original actions were committed by your partner, and that I'm talking to you now, but the fact remains that your slot as a whole committed those scumtells, as well as others, and is therefore scummy.

I am arguing that you are against my partner and therefore my slot just because you have issues with his playstyle, and unless you can show independent evidence against me that rules out any possibility of playstyle quirks being part of the equation, you cannot indict me as scum.

Even if we were to separate everything from the context of what your partner did, you still buddied up to me, which, as I've said before, is a scumtell. You also accused me of buddying up to TUA, which implies that he is town, something that you'd only know if you were scum.

My actions do not magically change, correct. To get you on my side? Correct. To diffuse a wagon? I've already done so! What did you have to do with the wagon when it had already diffused before you came back? It's the equivalent of removing you from the equation and still managing to diffuse the wagon, successfully.

My point being that you buddied up to me with the purpose of diffusing the wagon on you. Just because I came back at a later point to address it does not change the fact that you committed that act with that purpose at that time.

Woops. Well I'm sorry, I meant that TUA was your almost-dead scumbuddy and you are chainsaw defending him. Does this make that better?

I love the complete 180 you've made on me. It gives me warm fuzzies to see scum flail in such an obvious manner.

tl;dr my votes are all OMGUSes

Two things wrong with that:

1.) For my vote to be an OMGUS, you would have had to have voted me before I voted you, which you did not. At the very least, you should have had an extreme suspicion that I was scum, which you did not. In essence, you are desperate to discredit my case, and that includes lie about it.

2.) I do indeed have a case against you/your slot. In fact, we've been arguing about it's validity this entire time (and not its individual points). For the sake of those who do not want to read a novel to find it, I'll put it in its own separate post. Maybe then people can see there's a series of justifiable reasons to lynch your slot.

@UA: Three things about your first point against OH:

1.) RBD is female. Therefore it is not that strange for her to like MLP.

2.) What people do or do not like is inconsequential to them being scum.

3.) Let's keep this stupidity out of the thread please.

[Bulbazak]

Feel free to lynch me for not finding it funny.

[Bulbazak]

The case on MO (for those who refuse to read walls and other relevant bits of information):

1.) Their stance on policy lynches are just bad. It's not even like other players' views on PLs, where it is sometimes a necessary evil, but instead, they advocate policy lynching for the sake of policy lynching. Simply put, they'd rather policy lynch than do actual scumhunting.

2.) Their reads list was fake and not genuine at all. Its only purpose was to placate town, not to help in the scumhunting and find scum.

3.) Their reasoning for the difference in reads when confronted was completely backwards. You do not read the entire thread to get general reads and then read ISOs to solidify them through context. Simply put, they got caught faking reads and messed up on their lie to get out of it.

4.) They succumbed to the pressure on them and panicked about being lynched, although at no point were they ever in danger of being lynched. Town would have continued scumhunting, instead all they were worried about was self-preservation. This is in line more with a scum mindset than a town one.

5.) They have repeatedly tried to dismiss or discredit the case against them, rather than dealing with it. Originally this was done by trying to disassociate the two sides of the hydra. More recently, they have tried to claim that those on their wagon are on because of OMGUS, even though this is a blatant lie. As I said before, self-preservation at all costs.

6.) They buddied up to me to try to get me to drop the case against them and to get me on their side. As I've said repeatedly, buddying is a scumtell, as town has no reason to buddy, since they are too busy trying to catch scum.

7.) After they saw that they could not deter me, they did a complete 180 and started implying I was scummy for some indeterminate reason. Personally, I think they're just flailing at this point.

8.) In an effort to do so, they claimed that I was buddying up to TUA. The problem with this is that the only way I could be buddying to TUA was if I was scum and they were town. This goes against everything they've said about TUA's slot. Not only that, but it shows a knowledge of TUA's alignment, which only scum would know.

9.) After I pointed out the stupidity of the TUA buddying argument, they then backpedaled and accused me of being scumbuddies with TUA and chainsaw defending him. This would only have merit if I had been calling them scum only after the major TUA push began and they voted for TUA, however, I've been on MO as scum since before then, so I don't know where they're getting this.

In summary, MO is scum, plain and simple. So I implore everyone: Save a town. Lynch a scum-hydra.

[Bulbazak]

Really MO-scum is only way I probably wont vote you first post day two, and not only do I think thats not the flip we would get from him - im not going to be letting him get lynched if I have anything to say about it.

Same thing, only with TUA.

Unvote

Vote Keybladewielder

We can fight more about this tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

Finished going through a few ISOs and feeling better prepared to respond to people.

It's Metal Overlord whose lynch I was fighting, not KBW.

Than why not put a vote on KBW to counteract the MO wagon, instead of voting for yourself? That's what several of us did at the end of the day to protect our town reads. I'm just confused why you didn't do the same, and why you expect that to defend you in regards to you being scum with KBW.

Do you deny that you have mislynched a villager once or more before just because he was exhibiting "scumtells" but wasn't actually scum?

What does this have to do with the case at hand? A few mislynches does not cancel out the successful application of certain scumtells or their validity. This is simply Correlation Implies Causation, which is a logical fallacy. I would like you to address the case by its own merits, and not try to discredit it through some other means.

This proves that even you and your "scumtells" are not infallible, and also have a possibility of making mistakes. I am implying that you are wrong, in the case of this game.

Everybody makes mistakes. It's part of the game. However, that does not automatically mean that you can dismiss everything they say. No one's going to be perfect in their scumhunting. Period. Expecting them to be so is a fallacy (7 of 7 or BoP, I'm not sure which.). Let's stick with the points of the case, shall we?

You also accused me of buddying up to TUA, which implies that he is town, something that you'd only know if you were scum.

Is it possible, that both of you are scum? There is always a possibility, no?

Not if you suspect buddying, no. Buddying happens when scum tries to get on a town player's good side. By saying I buddied up to TUA, you're saying that TUA is town (which contradicts what you've said before) and I'm scum. There's no getting around that. You implied that TUA was town, I caught you, and now you're backpedaling.

So instead, you take a different position of defending him, with your currently unarguably high town-cred.

Wait. I have "unarguably high town-cred"? When did this happen? This never happens to me. Going to go do donuts in the Mafiascum parking lot. Brb.

Could you please provide reasons on why TUA is a bad lynch, and consequently a worse choice for a lynch than me?

Sure. He's town. You're scum. Questions?

Well then if my buddying up to you was specific for the intention to get only you off my wagon, why did the others get off my wagon first before you? Are you implying that my buddying up to you was not meant for you? Would the end result have changed if I happened to buddy somebody else?

Others' actions have no bearing on your actions towards me. Again, CIC. The difference between myself and the others on your wagon is that I'm a bit tenacious when it comes to my reads. I will strongly defend my town reads just as hard as I pursue my scum reads. You should know this after our back-and-forths, and chances are that you did know it when you originally buddied up to me. Simply put, after those scumtells, I was not going to be easily moved, unlike the others on the wagon. That's why buddying was the optimal scum strategy.

I have no idea why you find TUA town... really...

His posts have felt genuine, especially those at the end of the day.

Nobody, regardless of alignment, will want to be lynched. For a townie, you are the only person that is confirmed town, so you should defend yourself at all costs.

Yes, but it's how you defend yourself that makes all the difference. When you defended yourself, you were concerned only with not getting lynched, rather than confronting the reasons against you and showing why they were bad. What followed was a crap ton of AtE, rather than scumhunting. TUA, on the other hand, focused on getting as many reads and thoughts out as possible. They also confronted the points against them, rather than try to find ways to dismiss them altogether.

We have never dismissed a case, and if a case can be discredited, it is a bad/weak case. Even still, discrediting, is at least directly, confronting the case.

It depends on how it's discredited. If it's discredited by logical means using the validity of the points themselves, then yes. If, however, you attempt to discredit it via a fallacy or some other means or reasoning, then it is scummy. You've been doing the latter.

Regarding the OMGUS, I would like everybody to refer to

Shit.

KBW might be town.

VOTE: Metal Overlord.

We can still make this happen, no?

Actually, that's not OMGUS. TUA had a scum read on your slot for awhile. The most notable vote came from before his wagon started running away. That post came from the Mastin head, who tends to not think correctly when it comes to reads. Essentially, he saw you voting for KBW and immediately assumed KBW was town, for the precise reason that he had a scum read on you. Several of his reads are screwy in this regard. Simply put, he had a scum read on you prior to this post, had been voting KBW, saw you voting for KBW, and immediately developed a town read on the slot because he had a scum read on you. This is why he voted you, because of that prior scum read.

7.) After they saw that they could not deter me, they did a complete 180 and started implying I was scummy for some indeterminate reason. Personally, I think they're just flailing at this point.

Confirmation bias

On your part or mine?

I have no idea what chainsaw defending means

It's when you attack a player because they are attacking your scumpartner.

but I am sure of this fact: more people are in favor of lynching TUA than me, with more solid reasons and different perspectives.

This is AtM (Appeal to Majority). This does not prove that you're not scum.

Do share why TUA refused to distinguish which head was posting for the town.

Why does this matter? For the most part, it's easy to tell the difference between Mastin and Nero. But it has nothing to do with how scummy that slot is. Just treat the entire slot as a whole, and don't worry about which head is posting. This does nothing scumhunting-wise, and the more you obsess about this as the game goes on, the more I begin to suspect that this is just an easy out for you to score a mislynch.

Also that he apparently just called all of MO-Klick-DGB scum as reason to not vote Jen who he abstained on giving reads of.

Actually, Mastin called her scum yesterday, mainly for bad Mastin reasoning of advocating lynch consolidation on either their slot or the "town" slot of KBW. It's the same reason he was voting for DGB: his other scum reads were on the Jennifer wagon.

There's nothing town about voting someone when they have no internet access and say they may need to replace out.

Nah. I think townies re much more likely to have the balls to call out that kind of behavior.

Calling someone out for being gone for RL reasons is stupid. If I saw a player do that, at the very least, I'd consider them an absolute moron, at most, I'd think them scum.

I do think that Serra replaced out because he did not have the time to devote to playing a good scum game. Normally I read replacing out as a null tell, and I admit mostly a gut read based on Serra's posts.

But couldn't he have also replaced out because he didn't have the time to devote to playing a good town game as well? As you said, replacing out is a null tell. I have to seriously wonder why you are pushing for Jen's lynch so hard based on her predecessor, which you admit is gut, and not on any tells from Jen herself. To be honest, I had a town read on Serra, and Jen has done nothing to diminish that. In fact, she's made the read stronger. So unless you have something better than this crap, move on and find scum using actual scumtells.

Others proving my point for me holds more credence to me proving it myself. Besides, many others were against me for a policy lynch, especially Bulbazak, well so I don't policy lynch, and let you guys do it. Guess what? I was right!

First, I still find policy lynching to be bad and a scumtell for the most part. Key's flip does nothing to disprove that point. Many found him to actually be scummy, rather than wanting to just lynch for PL reasons. In the end, it was not a policy lynch, but a consolation lynch to save players that RBD and I had a town read on (RBD saved you, and I saved TUA). Yes we struck scum, but that does not mean that policy lynches are automatically good. However, you are right about one thing. There's no way the PL point will hold any weight. Consider that withdrawn, although I still feel strongly about it.

Vote Metal Overlord

I have a few more questions, and stuff I want to address after my ISOs, but that can wait until later. For now, I'm going to bed.

[Bulbazak]

The case on MO (for those who refuse to read walls and other relevant bits of information)

I assume then this is the entire case against us?

No, this is the abridged case. I didn't include some of the more minor or redundant scumtells, because this was created for those who hadn't been paying attention and didn't want to read walls.

2.) Their reads list was fake and not genuine at all. Its only purpose was to placate town, not to help in the scumhunting and find scum.

Excuse me, but were do I say it was fake?

How about here:

Well obviously it was manufactured, the whole point of it was to keep MS here from being lynched.

Manufactured = faked. Simple English lesson there, and congrats, you got it for free. And again, as town your primary goal should be to scumhunt, not to placate town. All I see from your admitted reasons are scum motives.

3.) Their reasoning for the difference in reads when confronted was completely backwards. You do not read the entire thread to get general reads and then read ISOs to solidify them through context. Simply put, they got caught faking reads and messed up on their lie to get out of it.

Well, fuck you too. Care to explain any proof you have of this?

Simply put, what you said IS backwards. ISOs are good for general reads, and a complete readthrough of the thread gives you better reads due to context. You, however, said the exact opposite. My explanation is you got caught faking reads and lied about it, rather badly I might add. The only other explanation is you really did this, and are therefore a complete idiot. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

4.) They succumbed to the pressure on them and panicked about being lynched, although at no point were they ever in danger of being lynched. Town would have continued scumhunting, instead all they were worried about was self-preservation. This is in line more with a scum mindset than a town one.

Wut the fuq? "The succumbed to the pressure when there wasn't even pressure" Sorry if this is misrepping, but can you read this to yourself?

First, you obviously misquoted. I'm starting to rethink you not being an idiot, especially with the quote

directly above you

. Second, any vote is pressure. The pressure simply increases as more votes are added. This is why a single vote can be good as pressure to urge discussion. However, you were never in danger of a lynch. Thus you panicking under very little pressure is telling. I might be able to understand it if you were under the same pressure TUA was yesterday, or Jen today, who is currently at L-2. But you started panicking when you were between L-7 and L-5, because let's be honest your wagon never got past L-4. You were NEVER in any real danger of being lynched, and even if you were, there were better ways to handle it, such as trying to get your final reads or thoughts out, or addressing what exactly was wrong with your wagon, all of which are helpful to the town. Instead, you went into full self-preservation mode and mainly tried to placate us and serve us heaping helpings of AtE.

Hey HD bro, you like being scum? More to come later, but in short, does anybody who's played with HD think this seems normal for him? Ordinarily he's way more active and involved, and his go-to strategy as scum is lurk. He certainly isn't lacking time, he actually started hosting a game on another site we play on, so yeah.

Actually, HD just got back from being V/LA. So attempt to cause a mislynch via lying and fallacy is denied.

Join the crowd MM she has been doing the same thing to me as well.

Which is why I posted links to Serra's finished games. To show why I felt Serra was scummy.

Except that was a crap ton of WIFOM, and you know it. I would like to see something more substantial case-wise against Jen, please.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, going to address the stupidity that is the Jen wagon. These are those on the wagon, and their reasons:

Rainbowdash: Jen unvoted TUA and voted for MO. Seriously, that's the only reason. Want proof? Here it is:

UNVOTE: TUA
VOTE: MO

I like TUA's staying in fighting against the lynch.

I would almost be fine quick lynching Jen if thats an option. While TUA is best avaiable lynch, Jen might almost be at the point where she is passing Antilles for scummiest.

The Key reason was added later.

Klick: None. He's never given a reason for being on this wagon, besides sheeping RBD.

MetalOverlord: Because Rach said so? I'm not sure, but MO is scum, so it doesn't matter. They're pushing for a mislynch here.

RachMarie: Gut on Serra. She has yet to supply an actual reason (ie. scumtells) why Jen is scum. Trying to cruise on Serra WIFOM at this point.

TheUnderachivers: Mastin stupidity. Need I say more?

Zdenek: I'm unsure.

DGB is somewhat likely town

KBW voted her for something like 12 hours, so I'm pretty indifferent to this.

But this is solid.

Vote: Jennifer

Please explain.

Ms. Marangal: Mainly falls down to the vote change from TUA to MO. Did ask a good question about the difference between MO fighting lynch and TUA fighting lynch, but that by itself is not a good enough reason to vote someone and put them at L-2. I think she's just mainly offended at what she thinks is Jen misrepping her. A little OMGUSy, but whatever. She by far has the best reason to be on the wagon.

ArcAngel9: I'm not really understanding her reason for voting Jen. Because she didn't defend like you thought she would? I don't know. It's AA9 logic, so I'm done trying to figure it out.

Seriously, this wagon is bad. No one, besides perhaps MM, has a good reason to lynch Jen. If someone has a good case, based on actual scumtells that have not already been addressed, then by all means, let's hear them and let Jen try to rebut them, but if not, this wagon needs to die now before we end up mislynching a townie.

[Bulbazak]

That I can understand a little better, but I still think it's an inadequate reason to put someone at L-1. For me, Jen has read extremely town. And she's right, there's not much else she can do to defend against 8 cases of gut.

[Bulbazak]

Show me your reason how she is Town.

First of all, questions like this:

What specific reads are Nero/Mastin both aligned on and what are those reads?
What specific reads do Nero/Mastin disagree on and what are those reads?
What people do neither Nero or Mastin have a read on?
If one of you has a read on someone and the other has no read on that person, who is the person, who has the read (and what is it), and who has no opinion?

and this:

I can't say anything about why Serra replaced out because I don't know. I'm not sure what "AtE" you're talking about. You only give vague reasons for your read and seems like you're just trying to jump on the popular wagon du jour.
- What specifically about Serra's play did you find not like his town play?
- Also, even assuming I'm your top scum read, who else do you think is scum? Are you calling Antilles a scum read, or are you riding the fence on that one?

Second, her reason for not voting Key is actually good, and she has been very consistent regarding this reason. It is not anti-town at all to give someone the chance to defend themselves. I normally find those who say the opposite to be suspect.

So what else do you have besides refined gut (which is what meta by itself is)?

[Bulbazak]

How would you expect her to defend herself when there is nothing substantial to defend against? From what I see, she's done all she can at this point, but it's hard to defend against a wagon built on gut. She's called it out. There's nothing else to do. What do you want her to do, shout a lot? Because we've already had several people be abrasive and stuff when their wagons built up, and it didn't help.

Also, this seems similar to what you linked to, so I'm not understanding the problem:

I feel like the biggest challenge this game is going to be fighting against inertia/avoiding falling into the dreaded lazy town lull.

My wagon has moved super fast for vague gut reasons, and no one seems willing to stand behind anything concrete, fearing to be pinned down. And no one on my wagon seems inclined to do the work to see if they're right or if there are better lynches out there, content instead to just park.

So, if I'm the lynch today,

YOU NEED TO WAKE UP

. Go back and look at who was on the Fuzzy wagon and my wagon. Also, stop giving MO a pass.

Actually, I want to hear everyone's opinion on MO who is currently voting for me.

[Bulbazak]

Going to address some stuff that I noticed when going through the ISOs, and also ask a couple pertinent questions.

You guys know Key is scum right?

vote:key

UA WTF??? What is your reasoning.

keys ISO is mainly fluff posting and active lurking. Why are you so defensive here?

This exchange is strange coming from Rach. I can see asking the reasoning behind TUA's vote, but her reaction when asking that question just doesn't match with her supposed zeal to lynch Key.

However...

Ahem I could certainly see a scum team bussing Key... Gives them big Town brownie points....

And furthermore it is not like Key is helping the scum team much. If Nacho was in this game and scum, you bet he would bus Key HARD..

I just watched him in a game I just finishing modding bus his scum bud on D 1 and then go on to win the game....

@ Dashie

How likely do you think it is that at least one scum was on Key's wagon to bus him for town cred?

These make me think that Rach may be scum who bussed Key hard for town cred.

Also, Rach, whatever happened to those reads that you promised us at the beginning of d1?

The previous posts were written by KX, which were scummy(in your opinion, nothing is objective here). The post that I had written, was not scummy by itself, but according to the context it is scummy

Tell me Jennifer, Why was our hydra specifically scummy for doing this but MO is not?

Jen, I'm unsure whether you've addressed this or not, but I'd like an answer please.

So, if I'm the lynch today,

YOU NEED TO WAKE UP

. Go back and look at who was on the Fuzzy wagon and my wagon. Also, stop giving MO a pass.

You do know that Fuzzy was not in this game, right?

[Bulbazak]

And weren't you going at me at one point for trying to start something with semantics?

Actually, that was Titan. Semantics can be a good way to catch scum. It's called scumslips.

So yeah, please tell me, were is the supposed pressure I cracked under?

Sorry MS, but Cool Story Bros. Lynch me. I want you all to know what it's like to be wrong. GL mafia, but with this lot, you have nothing to fear.

You were at L-7 at the time. There was no danger of being lynched.

As for attempting to cause a mislych, first, were is my vote on him? Were are other votes on him? Were am I pushing for him to be lynched?

You were implying him to be scum without actually voting. This would give you distance should a wagon actually develop and a lynch go through. Asking if anybody thought his play was unusual was your soft push. This is all basic scumhunting stuff, so don't go saying I don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm throwing fallacies around, because I'll continue to catch you in your BS.

[Bulbazak]

Are you seriously stating though my questioning of one of the peeps votes on my scumspect as somehow making me scum?

No, I just didn't understand the degree of surprise expressed there. It's understandable that you questioned TUA about their motives for voting Key. However, acting as flabbergasted as you did just didn't seem to mesh with your previous pushes for a Key lynch. Again, not saying your scum because of it. Just something strange that I noticed when going back through yours and TUA's ISOs, and I thought it best to bring it out.

Forgot about this:

However, Bulbazac left something important out when mentioning said post. In that post, they claim they're voting us of TUA because TUA was trying to stay alive, and fighting the lynch. That is one an entirely BS reason.

Actually, I did address it when I went over MM's reasons for being on the Jen lynch. I felt that she was right in questioning Jen about it, and that she was the only one who had an actual reason to be on the wagon.

[Bulbazak]

Please explain.

What don't you understand?

I don't understand your reasoning for jumping on the Jen wagon. You never explained it. What it looks like instead is just plain sheeping, which others on the wagon at least admitted to doing.

Bulb's posts are really long and I don't care about much of what he's writing, so he's worrying me a lot.

What don't you care about? Some specifics would be nice. Or are you one of those players who automatically assume someone is scum, because they post walls?

Sorry MS, but Cool Story Bros. Lynch me. I want you all to know what it's like to be wrong. GL mafia, but with this lot, you have nothing to fear.

You were at L-7 at the time. There was no danger of being lynched.

Votecount 1.15:

Metal Overlord - Bulbazak, BT, Jennifer, Human Destroyer
The Acting Method - ms. marangal
Bulbazak - Reek, keybladewielder
Robocopter - rachmarie
Reek - Metal Overlord
Underachivers - Robocopter, Otterhorse
keybladewielder - arcangel8, underachivers
RachMarie - Klick

Not Voting - antilles, The Acting Method, Titan

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch and to no-lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-03-31 00:58:14) or by midnight on April 1st, 2013.

The Mastin2 head of The Underarchivers is V/LA until at least the end of March.

Still searching for a replacement for Reek, TAM, and BT.

I don't know about Kx but...


Even

I

was flustered at L-5.

What does that vote count have to do with the previous quote? I checked to make sure how many votes you had on you when that was said. You only had 2, meaning you were at L-7. The point was that the panicking and the AtE were inappropriate, especially at that stage. And as has been said before, there are other ways to deal with that sort of pressure. You just did so in a scummy way.

Do you deny that you have mislynched a villager once or more before just because he was exhibiting "scumtells" but wasn't actually scum?

What does this have to do with the case at hand? A few mislynches does not cancel out the successful application of certain scumtells or their validity. This is simply Correlation Implies Causation, which is a logical fallacy. I would like you to address the case by its own merits, and not try to discredit it through some other means.

This proves that even you and your "scumtells" are not infallible, and also have a possibility of making mistakes. I am implying that you are wrong, in the case of this game.

Everybody makes mistakes. It's part of the game. However, that does not automatically mean that you can dismiss everything they say. No one's going to be perfect in their scumhunting. Period. Expecting them to be so is a fallacy (7 of 7 or BoP, I'm not sure which.). Let's stick with the points of the case, shall we?

My argument here is that

You are Wrong.

That is what I aim to prove throughout our course of argument. You are attempting to prove that I am scum, and I am here to prove you wrong(without necessitating a flip). Hope this helps focus.

If I am wrong, you argue the points I brought up and show why they're wrong. Saying instead that I'm wrong presently, because I've been wrong at points in the past is a logical fallacy, which not only ignores the case at hand, but also ignores the fact that I have been right in the past as well. Again, this has nothing to do with the case at hand presently. I would like you to address the cases on their own merits, thank you very much.

That being said, I would like to see what MO does without a wagon on them.

Unvote

Vote Antilles

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Yeah, that's not happening. I'll wait until their replacement arrives. Hey BB, how's it going? Thoughts on all of the shenanigans will be nice once you catch up.

[Bulbazak]

How is MO def. town? Please, walk me through this.

[Bulbazak]

I think that bulbazack and mo are probably town and wish they'd both call a 14 day truce.

That's what I'm attempting currently. Still doesn't mean I won't point out something scummy if I see it, but I really want to see what they do without a wagon on them.

Struggled a bit on who I was going to vote for. Thought about joining Titan on the DG wagon. Thought about voting Rach. But I think I like this...

Vote Klick

I compared his ISO here with his ISO in True Love and noticed a vast difference in posting quality. I did not liking him sheeping his way onto the Jen wagon , and he should have known better about that Jen unvote, especially since he and Robo explained the rule to AA9 earlier in the game.

[Bulbazak]

So I think that fake effort, like writing pointless walls is scummy.

I'll keep that in mind next time I spend 2 hrs. writing a response to scum.

I don't understand your reasoning for jumping on the Jen wagon. You never explained it. What it looks like instead is just plain sheeping, which others on the wagon at least admitted to doing.

That question had nothing to do with the Jen wagon, so go back a look again.

You mean this question:

Please explain.

to this quote:

DGB is somewhat likely town

KBW voted her for something like 12 hours, so I'm pretty indifferent to this.

But this is solid.

Vote: Jennifer

in a post breaking down the Jen wagon? Yeah, I believe the context is pretty clear. I was asking what was so "solid" about the Jen vote. You never really answered. Nice try though.

@Jen: Your TUA link is broken. You might try checking those in preview next time.

[Bulbazak]

I compared his ISO here with his ISO in True Love and noticed a vast difference in posting quality.

Does he normally buddy, like he's doing to MO.

Seeing as he was town in True Love, he wasn't trying to buddy up to anybody, but I see what you're getting at. I also find it strange how he shifted his opinion of MO's slot, and mainly on something as bad as "they had a desire not to get lynched". As has been pointed out multiple times, that is bad reasoning for suspecting someone to be town. Jen was suspected of being scum because of that, and the post she based it on was not as scummy as the MO middle-finger shout out.

What I noticed was how active he was scumhunting-wise in True Love. There's really not much filler in that game. He's either responding to someone, explaining something, or asking pertinent questions. However, upon going back through his ISO here, I noticed a lot of fluff posting. The differences between the 2 ISOs are like night and day, and it was enough to rethink my original town read on him.

I also don't like some of his more recent posting. His hopping on the Jen wagon was bad, as he previously had her as a strong town read. His recent unvote is also bad, as he had to explain that rule to AA9 earlier in the game. I have a hard time believing that he'd spontaneously forget something like that.

[Bulbazak]

Why do you think that Jenny is town?

First of all, questions like this:

What specific reads are Nero/Mastin both aligned on and what are those reads?
What specific reads do Nero/Mastin disagree on and what are those reads?
What people do neither Nero or Mastin have a read on?
If one of you has a read on someone and the other has no read on that person, who is the person, who has the read (and what is it), and who has no opinion?

and this:

I can't say anything about why Serra replaced out because I don't know. I'm not sure what "AtE" you're talking about. You only give vague reasons for your read and seems like you're just trying to jump on the popular wagon du jour.
- What specifically about Serra's play did you find not like his town play?
- Also, even assuming I'm your top scum read, who else do you think is scum? Are you calling Antilles a scum read, or are you riding the fence on that one?

Second, her reason for not voting Key is actually good, and she has been very consistent regarding this reason. It is not anti-town at all to give someone the chance to defend themselves. I normally find those who say the opposite to be suspect.

Are you sure you're reading the game?

[Bulbazak]

Hey Titan,
I'm Bulbazak like MJaye from ADWD. What do you two think?

[Bulbazak]

You think it's townie to not vote for scum because the scum is lurking and you think that it's suspect to vote for lurking players?

I never said any of this. I said that I understood Jen not wanting to vote for a player that was V/LA, and that it was not a bad decision at all. Just because Key ended up being scum still does not make it a bad decision. That's Post Hoc.

That being said, I actually do not hold lurking to be the scumtell as others do. I find it to be null in terms of alignment, as both town and scum do it. It is the actual content of the posts that I judge. That's why I thought Antilles and TAM to be scum, not by their lurking, but by what they actually posted. And you are right in one regard, I do find it suspicious when someone focuses on a lurker for the sole reason of them lurking. Lurkers make easy mislynch targets, and it's easy for scum to excuse themselves after the fact. So yes, focusing on lurkers can be scummy.

Also, what exactly do you find irritating about my posts?

Not really liking BB's posts so far.

I'm not really seeing MO scum, mainly because of the ingenuity of the MS part of the post. Kx isn't all to horrible either, and I'm thinking that people are making him look worse then he actually is. the survival tells are weak for that slot, and there really isn't anything that's standing out. if anything, MS is actually trying his hardest to actually participate in this game evidence by him being upset that people are ignoring his wall post

First, ingenuity is not a towntell. Scum have every reason to be clever too, perhaps even more so than town. Second, how are the survival tells weak? Third, you try to vindicate the slot by saying there is nothing that stands out, and that MO is town partly based on MS being upset about ignoring his wall, but did you happen to read any of the walls, especially the back-and-forth between us? I brought out several things during that conversation. Heck, I even summarized it in a tl;dr post that highlighted the main points of the MO case. What exactly do you not understand/disagree with?

[Bulbazak]

I see you don't like the letter M...

RBD, isn't it better to wait to hear from Antilles's replacement before getting all gung-ho on their wagon? I'm 50/50 on whether their posts were evidence of scum or just of a two man hydra where neither could make time for the game. Plus, some of the attention he's gotten lately has made me very nervous regarding that slot.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbakaz, a question, you failed to disprove any of the defenses I raised against your points regarding me aside from that I ragequit, which, as far as I know, isn't alignment indicative. What do you currently think of me in particular?

I believe I addressed everything that I found important, however, if you want me to address something in particular, please let me know. I still think your slot is scum, however, I believe it best to look elsewhere at the moment as 1.) I kinda want to see what you do without a wagon on you. 2.) Our back and forth d1 ended up being a bit of a distraction and I think it not only fogged up some of my reads, but other people's as well, because 3.) everybody just tl;dr our posts, and thus missed out on what was actually said. Therefore, even if you are scum, nobody will be able to see it, because the evidence is buried under mountains of text that no one wants to read (much to my distress).

Also, want me to make a compilation of all the horrible arguments/responses you've made?

What is this? A loaded question with the intent to strawman?

[Bulbazak]

For the first, specifically the first four points. I believe you kinda dropped them all after my #1014.

As for the second part, are you sure you're in a sane state of mind? Since that's abnormally paranoid. Actually, all I really wanted to see was a response, be it a denial or admittance of you having horrible responces/arguments, but yeah . . .

First, I did answer the points I could. However, a lot of #1014 was you saying "F- you" repeatedly, and I felt it wasn't worth responding to. Actual questions, concerns, misrepresentations and the like I addressed. This went on for a couple more posts after your #1014, and then it kinda wound down, as I was moving on for the moment, which I think MS recognized. The best thing at the moment was a truce, as it was starting to be more of a distraction, and therefore harmful to the town. I do not see the point of stirring things up again, but I'll leave that to you.

Second, that WAS a loaded question designed to make me look bad no matter what my answer. I just pointed it out as such. And your quote:

be it a denial or admittance of you having horrible responces/arguments,

shows that it's an attempt to sneak in a strawman argument.

Personally, I have half a mind to vote you again, as you are a much better lynch than Klick, but first I'm going to ask Titan something.

@Titan: I know you were an advocate for a truce between MO and myself for this day, which I have since shown and admitted that I am interested in, if only to solidify my reads outside that wagon. However, with MO intent on starting a fight and strawmanning me, is it still the best course of action? I guess what I'm asking is what would you do if you were me in this situation?

[Bulbazak]

Got so wrapped up in the MO thing, that I forgot to respond to MM:

You were talking about their posts reading genuine? That's a completely different matter, and one that I agree can be instrumental in forming reads. However, it is not the same as "ingenuity" which is more about a specific person being clever, rather than a statement about how their posts feel and the motives that might have gone into them. That being said, what exactly do you find genuine about MO's posts (please be specific, as I'd like to see what you see)? Also, how do you feel about their recent attack against me, since you stated that previous posts of theirs have not felt malicious?

[Bulbazak]

Also,

Unvote

I'll figure out what to do after I wake up...

[Bulbazak]

@MO: Even though I still believe you to be scum, I also recognize that the back-and-forth yesterday didn't help matters any. Fact of the matter is, even though I see it, others do not, which I mainly believe to be because of the length of our posts and everyone is tl;dr-ing them and assuming the big, bad Bulba is being mean to MO. Fact of the matter is that it ultimately turned into a distraction, and there's nothing I can do about it right now. Therefore, it is in my best interest to clear my head and look elsewhere at the moment. Also, as I've said several times already, I'm curious to see how you act without a wagon on you.

In the meantime, I'm going to go after one of my other main scumreads and see what happens, because ultimately, that will give me a better read on this game.

Vote DrippingGoofballs

@BB: It's not helping that you're not posting anything of substance.

[Bulbazak]

RBD, isn't it better to wait to hear from Antilles's replacement before getting all gung-ho on their wagon? I'm 50/50 on whether their posts were evidence of scum or just of a two man hydra where neither could make time for the game. Plus, some of the attention he's gotten lately has made me very nervous regarding that slot.

[Bulbazak]

Why wait for a replacement of a slot I think is scum?

What attention too? He has four votes, DGB and Jen have been getting "more attention" than he is.

As I've said, I'm unsure whether his posts are indicative of scum or a lazy hydra. I was willing to vote them when they were here, so I could possibly get a more definitive read on them. However, it doesn't do any good to vote a player that is replacing out, especially when there are 4 scum slots in total. To be honest, I want to hear from his replacement, as I think this would likely solidify my reads on the slot, which is not the scummiest in the game by far. Voting for a slot that is about to get replaced instead of investigating other potential scumleads is lazy play at the very least, possibly scummy at the most.

The attention I was talking about partially began at the end of d1. Some of my strong scum reads have turned their attention toward Antilles, which is also why I am wary about voting for a slot that is about to be replaced out. My point is, I'd rather vote for someone who can defend themselves over someone who can't. There is no reason for town to pick on the weak. We're not mafia after all.

[Bulbazak]

Nope nope nope nope nope.

Let me get this straight... You decide to look into your wagon for scum, and come away with town reads on the entire thing? And all for BS reasoning, such as:

Never mind, post #991 means DGB is almost certainly town.

Question, how does this:

Jennifer is town, Metal Overlord is town, let's lynch Antilles!

equal "certainly town"? Walk me through your thought process here. Because what I see in that giant wall of yours is a lot of town pacification and buddying. Your reasoning is bad, and that includes your points on MM.

For MM, take the town pacification posts that provide absolutely zero evidence for why people are town, besides Antilles say so, and put it in reverse. There is nothing presented that is "transparently scum", in fact, like everything else he's presented, it's all null. Two posts concerning this stand out to me:

Let me break #1122 down for you guys, too:

well, yeah I realize that being Genuine in your posts and stuff isn't a town-tell though it's incredibly hard to sound Genuine and Honest in what you say or do as scum, hence why I believe MO's genuineness is a sign that he is in fact town. and then there's the fact that the walls between you and that slot was actually an argument between you and Kx. the ones you did have with him didn't feel malicious in the slightest.

I also couldn't help but realize that people were pegging active members as somewhat scummy because they weren't as activity here doesn't match their activity else where? I can't help but think that it's a weak reason to suspect a person, especially because this is a large game. it's alot more easier to lurk in a large game then it is in a smaller game. I also couldn't help but notice that people who called those people out didn't add me in that list even though I havn't been incredibly active here either. I'll find those people later and question them

<3 Klick, it's your fault for town-reading me in Polygamist in the first place, it wasn't exactly a strong reason to think that I was town.

Still liking Lurker for scum though

Mod: V/LA till wednesday

1. first paragraph. being reasonable, admitting points, being generally pacifistic
2. second paragraph. a bunch of worthless theory about activity or lack thereof equating to scumminess
3. third paragraph. buddying up to klick
4. fourth paragraph. talking to the mod
5. fourth paragraph. going V/LA while vote-parked on someone who is not going to be lynched.

conclusion: 100% scum no doubt about it

First, this is a bunch of gibberish and trying to make a post that is not scummy in the least into a so-called "transparent scum post". Let's take this point by point:

1.) This is in response to me and is on par with her posts thus far. I realized later that when she said "ingenuity" she meant "genuine". I see nothing scummy about any of this, as it is not out of the ordinary.

2.) Again, not unusual. Attacking lurkers has been a thing this game. I am not surprised this is on her mind, as she sees Jen as scummy, and the main point against Jen was her not wanting to vote someone who was V/LA. The activity question is a major topic in this game, so, again, it's not surprising that she's addressing it.

3.) The Klick/MM exchanges are interesting, but I wouldn't call it buddying. Simply, MM is telling Klick that those are ridiculous reasons to read her as town. Prime example is the exchange from 401-407.

4 & 5: First, how is telling the mod you're going to be V/LA scummy?! Second, she does not have her vote parked on "someone who is not going to be lynched". In fact, she is not voting anyone at this point in time. But besides that, what does not voting for someone who is going to be lynched have to do with anything? I don't remember not being on a big wagon being a major scumtell.

Now lynch Ms Marangal, and the second lynch I have pushed will be scum as well.
And then you guys will know unless I am epicly bussing, I'm town.

Second, this part is really bad. There's a certainty here that just does not read town. Heck, those who have previously had an MM scumread have not been this certain. Then there's the major WIFOM in this post. Lynching MM and discovering she's scum would not make you confirmed town. In fact, it'd do the opposite, BECAUSE of this post. This looks like trying to set up major town cred. I'm not buying this argument for a minute.

Unvote

Vote Antilles

RBD, I'm on board now. Let's make this thing happen.

[Bulbazak]

Going to address something before going further:

Never mind, post #991 means DGB is almost certainly town.

Question, how does this:

Jennifer is town, Metal Overlord is town, let's lynch Antilles!

equal "certainly town"? Walk me through your thought process here. Because what I see in that giant wall of yours is a lot of town pacification and buddying. Your reasoning is bad, and that includes your points on MM.

Okay, before I provide you "reasoning"...

First, have you ever played with DGB before? Well, I have. A lot. A

whole

lot.
I'm assuming if you have too, you either weren't paying attention, or you're rather dull.

If you

haven't

played with her before, that's actually a point in your favor on the "I might actually pretend to care about your opinion" scale. If you

have

played with her before, then well, guess what, your opinion goes out the window entirely.

Nope. Haven't played with her. Now what was your reasoning? Or were you hoping that I wouldn't noticed that you said a lot without providing anything of substance?

Actually, that's what I've got a lot from your posts: Zero substance. To be honest, I was kinda excited when you returned and wrote a lot. I took it to be a good sign. But then I actually read what you wrote, and found that you had essentially created a giant wall that contained absolutely nothing. No reasoning for reads. No scumhunting. Just pacifying those on your wagon and leaping to conclusions with absolutely no reasons given whatesoever and expecting everyone to automatically trust you (because obviously scum can't write giant walls) and follow your lead. Sorry, not going to happen.

Truth is, I don't trust you. Heck, I don't trust Rainbowdash, and here I am backing a wagon of her's. I do trust Titan, but even so, that doesn't mean I'm going to back everything they say and endlessly sheep them. Fact is, these posts of yours contain an unprecedented amount of ego. You're cocky. In fact, you're the type of cocky I absolutely hate. It makes sense if you're Chkflip. He was that kind of cocky, who even after deserting a game, claimed that he could have won as scum, even though his replacement was lynched based on Chk's scumminess. Guess who made that case? I did. And I'm ready to do it again. So, let's dance!

Going to begin with these:

And I'll tell you one thing right now. You're going to fail. She's going to be lynched, and she's going to flip scum, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, friend.

but ignoring what's actually true. Such as, that I've just handed you your second scum player.

Just follow my lead (like on kbw), and you'll get another red flip. On the other hand, you

could

fight me tooth and nail every step of the way and end up looking stupid

when

(yes) she is lynched, and (yes) there is a red flip. Again, it's your choice.

Just showing this trend. This is not certainty in reads. This is foreknowledge (notice the "when" instead "if"). Normally this degree of certainty is after an extended period of time, when the player has been pushing a specific slot, but there has been none of that from Antilles. Instead, he popped in, and claimed, with absolute certainty, that a player he hasn't interacted with AT ALL is scum, based on magical reasons that he's not going to share with anyone, because "if the blue fairy hasn't told them to you, then you must not be worthy".

Either get out of the way or get tossed, because this lynch is happening.

Says who? This is a pretty bold statement considering you don't have the backing for it, but I do see your point, as you've pretty much poisoned that slot. Still going to fight you on it.

Of course. And when I deliver a third scum flip after Ms Marangal, people's minds will be eased even further. And this will be the game where everybody was fooled by Antilles because he was an amazing scumhunter and bussed all of his buddies ASAP for insane town cred, and then lasted through mislynch after mislynch after mislynch after mislynch after mislynch after mislynch after mislynch after mislynch after mislynch after mislynch after mislynch after mislynch only to survive and win the game after having fooled everyone's pants off.

Hello strawman. How are you? I've missed you since the MO fight. Please inform Antilles that if he wants to betray the rest of his team, he's welcome to do so, but he's still going to be lynched either today or tomorrow.

@MM: What makes you think Antilles is town?

Also, sorry to say that your slot has been poisoned by WIFOM. It is very likely that you will be the lynch either today or tomorrow.

Simply put, there are 3 scenarios: 1.) We follow Antilles and lynch you. 2.) We lynch Antilles, and he flips scum. We have to assume he was trying to bus another partner for town cred, and you get lynched. 3.) We lynch Antilles, and he flips town. There will be a movement that will assume everything he observed was correct, and a wagon will form because of that. You might have a shot at that point (mainly because I have a town read on you and would fight the lynch because of that), but I have a feeling the force of the town would be too strong.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: TheLurker

Why?

[Bulbazak]

He's also getting replaced. I understand not liking any of the "popular options", but why go after someone who can't defend themselves, rather than a scummy player who can?

[Bulbazak]

If all of your scumreads are replacing out, then fine, but if not, I don't see the point of voting a slot that can't defend itself over one that can.

[Bulbazak]

@Mod: I know I'm still working on the human cloning thing and all, but I still haven't perfected it. Please remove my vote from DrippingGoofballs.

[Bulbazak]

MS:

Would like to put some disclaimer before we launch into this big wall. IMO Bulb is trying to bite off more than he can chew; starting wallotext arguments with me, Kx, and now Antilles. Yeah I wasn't very nasty towards Bulb throughout our whole exchange, because I am familiar with such tactics which I conveniently employ myself. However Kx replied more aggressively and Antilles is now dominating via power talk. I'll say Bulb, if you keep this up you're going to get destroyed. I'm telling you. I was being nice.

Your concern is flattering and all, but I'm a big boy and can take care of myself. Antilles is not the first "big dog" I've taken on, and they won't be the last. Simply put, the bigger and cockier they are, the more rewarding it is when I finally logic them to death.

Nope nope nope nope nope.

A classic "wait, things are not going as I planned them. Shit... you guys, we gotta stop this" moment.
I relish these moments.

Bulbazak is finding a more difficult enemy that he has faced this game!

Yes, because spouting nonsense is cause to make me shake in my boots.

It's funny: One could almost believe that you clicked the "quote" button on my post before even reading it in its entirety, with the express purpose of trying to dissuade people from lynching Ms Marangal.

And I'll tell you one thing right now. You're going to fail. She's going to be lynched, and she's going to flip scum, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, friend. Soz in advance.

Strong opponent we have here

Loud does not necessarily equal strong.

Anyway let's dance Bulbazak! Just don't fall down.

Okay, I'm confused here. Are you on Antilles's side here, my side, or did you decide to bring our previous fight onto the dance floor and make this an uncomfortable threesome? I just want to know what sort of shoes I should wear.

Going to begin with these:

And I'll tell you one thing right now. You're going to fail. She's going to be lynched, and she's going to flip scum, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, friend.

but ignoring what's actually true. Such as, that I've just handed you your second scum player.

Just follow my lead (like on kbw), and you'll get another red flip. On the other hand, you

could

fight me tooth and nail every step of the way and end up looking stupid

when

(yes) she is lynched, and (yes) there is a red flip. Again, it's your choice.

Just showing this trend. This is not certainty in reads. This is foreknowledge (notice the "when" instead "if"). Normally this degree of certainty is after an extended period of time, when the player has been pushing a specific slot, but there has been none of that from Antilles. Instead, he popped in, and claimed, with absolute certainty, that a player he hasn't interacted with AT ALL is scum, based on magical reasons that he's not going to share with anyone, because "if the blue fairy hasn't told them to you, then you must not be worthy".

Stop nitpicking please. You've also did that with the Kx reads with the ISO thing which honestly I did not understand at all. Lol

Not nitpicking. Showing a trend of scummy foreknowledge. Words mean something, MS, whether you want to acknowledge them or not.

Okay so, what now Bulbazak? Do you find Antilles scum? If he is scum, is it possible that I happen to be scum/will it change your read of me/ and vice versa?

I will admit, Antilles has actually set off my scumdar louder than your slot ever could. So yes, I do find him scum. I currently have 2 pools of suspects, one that's valid if Antilles is scum, and the other if you are scum. They hardly intersect. So if we lynch Antilles, and he flips scum, you're clear as far as I'm concerned. I'm going to be pursuing Antilles for the foreseeable future, though.

Will respond to big bad wallmasters Bulb and Antilles next

Hey. You. I'm not a big bad wallmaster. I just enjoy dismantling a complete idiot's posts from time to time.

Apparently, dismantling a post equals using zero logic and a lot of hot air. No wonder I'm not getting anywhere...

Bulbazak is currently on my /ignore list for... hmmm, it says here:
Gross Incompetence

*Looks back over short Mafia history. Remembers: Near flawless town win in Newbie 1305, breaking BBMolla in Newbie 1333, lauded scum play in same game (later brought up by Voidedmafia in True Love), took down [REDACTED] in [REDACTED]*

Nope. Try again.

Impertinent Attitude

Sorry. Idiots tend to trigger my snark button.

and General Loudmouthery

Which is high praise coming from someone whose posts are full of hot air.

No one actually fucking follows you when you don't want to take the time to explain your suspicion

And you basically just end up being hot air

The same, but @Antilles.

I'm going to wait until the next vote count to get a better feel of the situation before proceeding. There's a lot of nonsense going on at the moment, and all it's doing is spreading the votes around.

[Bulbazak]

I want anyone who is not on the DGB wagon to give me one real reason why you are not voting obvious scum.

Because I'm voting obvious scum.

[Bulbazak]

If the reasons on her were shit, she should be able to disband her wagon entirely, or keep on scum hunting.

This is circular reasoning. If she's town, the wagon would not magically disappear. She had to put actual effort behind that, especially with how fast it built up and with how close she got to getting lynched, which you then use as an argument to why she is scum. Find something better please.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, I wouldn't rule out KBW's scumpartners bussing him, so that's actually not a good argument.

[Bulbazak]

What are you confused about? Antilles showed up after a long absence, said absolutely nothing of substance in a wall post, his wagon derailed, and now the votes are spread out. I would like more votes on Antilles, but I think the rest of his team is making it difficult.

[Bulbazak]

Antilles, why is it that everyone who disagrees with you or thinks you're scum is automatically a bad player?

[Bulbazak]

If you disagree with someone who is right, that makes you wrong, does it not?
And if you're wrong, and you constantly push wrong ideas, that makes you a bad player, does it not?

It doesn't necessarily make one scum, it just makes them a bad player. Do you disagree with this?

The problem with that is that town does not know for certain who is scum or not. In essence, we are just making guesses. Hopefully, logical and informed guesses, but still, guesses nonetheless. We can never be absolutely certain that we are right, rather we can only be somewhat certain, and at times, almost positive, but we can never be absolutely positive, especially in an all vanilla game. Anyone who says otherwise is either cocky, an idiot, or scum, if not a combination of the three.

Now it's possible to cut down on the guesswork a bit by using "evidence" that we find to form a case (I put evidence in quotations, because it is not always as clear cut as we like to believe). This helps make our guess an informed one. If someone disagrees, they can always argue the validity of the case by addressing the points and showing why they're either good or bad. Those who do so are good players. Those who don't are bad players or scum.

All that said, your entire post is actually a Circular Argument with a tad bit of Loaded Question thrown in for good measure, both of which are logical fallacies. It's either a bold, and potentially brilliant, scum move or a really bad play by a really cocky player.

[Bulbazak]

I'd prefer an Antilles lynch, but I could go for DGB if necessary.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak I'm on drugs and i think your reads sucj

Then get off of the drugs and read again. Or tell me exactly why I'm wrong using logic and stuff.

[Bulbazak]

Am I supposed to be impressed with that WIFOM?

[Bulbazak]

@MM: What makes you think Antilles is town?

[Bulbazak]

So, having no doubts whatsoever is not indicative of scum, even though they happen to know the alignment of all the players, and therefore have no doubts?

[Bulbazak]

My reasons for who is what and why isn't something that can be explained by logic.

She said in a game of logic and reason...

[Bulbazak]

How about you, oh I don't know, vote!

[Bulbazak]

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

[Bulbazak]

Hold on. I want to hear from the new guys.

[Bulbazak]

@Mod: Can you update the names on the vote count so that we can see where those who replaced in sit? Please/Thank you.

Ok, so deadline is less than one day away and if we don't lynch the mafia get a nightkill?

and to lynch we need a majority correct?

The game is nightless, so no mafia night kill, and if a majority cannot be reached, plurality rules apply. Get it? Got it? Good.

I can't wait to hear your thoughts on the game so far, particularly, those on the various wagons.

[Bulbazak]

You know I'm all for an Antilles lynch, HD. Not so much a TUA one. And never Jen or Titan, because I have a pretty strong town read on them.

[Bulbazak]

Why aren't you a fan of the TUA lynch?

Because, imo, the case really isn't that strong. I got a mild town read on them at the end of d1, and even though their play has been kinda meh during this day phase, I'm not ready to jump on the TUA-scum wagon yet. Fact of the matter is that I have stronger scum reads, and I'd rather pursue them. If we should lynch Antilles, and they flip scum, I might reexamine TUA, but until then, I'm not really interested in pursuing their lynch.

What makes Jen and Titan town to you?

For Jen, it's something that I've stated twice before:

First of all, questions like this:

What specific reads are Nero/Mastin both aligned on and what are those reads?
What specific reads do Nero/Mastin disagree on and what are those reads?
What people do neither Nero or Mastin have a read on?
If one of you has a read on someone and the other has no read on that person, who is the person, who has the read (and what is it), and who has no opinion?

and this:

I can't say anything about why Serra replaced out because I don't know. I'm not sure what "AtE" you're talking about. You only give vague reasons for your read and seems like you're just trying to jump on the popular wagon du jour.
- What specifically about Serra's play did you find not like his town play?
- Also, even assuming I'm your top scum read, who else do you think is scum? Are you calling Antilles a scum read, or are you riding the fence on that one?

Second, her reason for not voting Key is actually good, and she has been very consistent regarding this reason. It is not anti-town at all to give someone the chance to defend themselves. I normally find those who say the opposite to be suspect.

For Titan, it's mostly because of the wall post from Tammy d1. Sure it angered me, but it also felt genuine and completely town. Their posts since then have retained that feeling. Personally, I think the case against them is complete garbage. It is being pushed by one of my top scumreads, DGB, and I believe her points against them to be stretching the truth to fit her claim of Titan-scum. I don't really buy your points either, but it's not as bad as DGB's. I could go more into it if you like, but I'd rather not, since it'd be a gigantic waste of my time, and I'd rather be scumhunting. Plus, I'm running on caffeine fumes right now as it is.

[Bulbazak]

Titan, why do you answer and address things that have already been answered/addressed? It doesn't do much good. All it does is fill up space and give the appearance that you're engaging. Just keep better track of the thread, please.

[Bulbazak]

Just mentioning it, because you double respond to things a lot, and it just takes up space. It might just be an issue of both heads failing to communicate, but it's taking up unnecessary space. Maybe try to confer with each other and consolidate your posts more? Idk, just a suggestion.

[Bulbazak]

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

Waiting for reactions from our new players. I have no idea which way they're going to align themselves, and Antilles is still my preferred lynch. Regardless, I'll probably be crashing soon (caffeine...) and check back up on things when I wake. I expect to have my permanent vote down by 7pm, so if I don't see a move toward Antilles, I'll set my vote sometime between those times.

[Bulbazak]

Just for curiosity's sake, what is the case on Ant?

Before they returned full time, they were active lurking, occasionally dropping in a read on a player with no explanation whatsoever (It was always a town read, iirc). Their first post is a prime example of this and is extremely scummy:

WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

I'm not even certain I'm reading this right. I'll come back with some content soon.

We're out of RVS so I'm straight up not voting as such.

THIS JUST IN: HD v MO reads TvT to me; agree, disagree? Discuss.

PEDIT: TU is probtown too.

PEDIT2: I've never enjoyed ArcAngel9. Discuss.

Here he calls HD, MO, and TUA town for no reason whatsoever (he never explains), and then tests the waters on a AA9 policy lynch. When he returned in a big way, he sets out to hunt for scum in his wagon and comes up with...all town, all for fluff reasons. In fact, his wall contains very little substance or scumhunting. At the end, he miraculously produces a MM scumread, with pretty much no reason given, and states that

when

, not if, she flips scum, he'll be confirmed as town. When confronted on any of these points, he does not counter or discuss the points, but rather he tries to bully his way through the conversation by calling his detractors either idiots or scum. That's the case in a nutshell.

Look at that, Titan is 150% scum.

Please just mislynch me and shorten my path to mafia retirement.

Yeah yeah I've been playing for 8 years and haven't been mislynched in 3 years as a primo NK target, but hey, apparently all my scumtells are shit so you can all go to hell. Sure I don't give enough of a shit to make actual cases that the new clique of players just laughs at as they try to driv me off the site, but when you come to your senses lynch TUA and Titan and Jennifer is a super-derp townie that will lose us the game so feel free to mislynch her next time to want to "save" TUA.

I'm going to let the scum hammer me on this one.

Toodles

Look at all the AtE...

[Bulbazak]

What are you confused about? Antilles showed up after a long absence, said absolutely nothing of substance in a wall post, his wagon derailed, and now the votes are spread out. I would like more votes on Antilles, but I think the rest of his team is making it difficult.

Who are those people?

Honestly, still working on it. Probably some of my null/scum reads. The good thing is that it would clear MO and DGB, as I don't see those two being scum buddies with Antilles. It would also move RBD to the def. town pile. My plan at this point is to lynch a a strong read from one of my two competing scum teams (MO/DGB vs. Antilles) and see which direction to pursue come d3.

With that in mind...

Unvote

Vote Dripping Goofball

[Bulbazak]

@Mod: The DrippingGoofball on DrippingGoofball is not DrippingGoofball, but me, a non-DrippingGoofball.

[Bulbazak]

How's that? Specifics would be nice.

[Bulbazak]

EBWOP: That was to MO.

[Bulbazak]

But what does that have to do with TUA being scum? That could just mean that Key was the compromise lynch for opponents of the TUA and MO wagons. Should we be thinking you are scum for the same reason?

[Bulbazak]

What are your thoughts on DGB?

[Bulbazak]

DGB, iirc, you were all on board for voting for yourself if I joined in. Therefore, saying that I'm "a head-desk townie" is a rather blatant misrep, especially since you were my second choice lynch-wise.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, I think the only reason DGB's not voting for herself now is that TUA's wagon is actually gathering a bit of traction, and she doesn't want to lose that. Therefore, she has to call those who called her on her anti-town behavior stupid.

[Bulbazak]

I may be disillusioned, but I still have a wincon and I'll still vote scum over town.

Then why did you unvote TUA d1 and vote yourself instead? That seems to be going against your wincon.

[Bulbazak]

I am not scum.

You know what. You're probably going to get me lynched. I've seen you as scum get confirmed town lynched in gay mafia II so I know you can do it. I guess I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that it's scum pushed when it happens.

And you know what sucks even when I flip town, they still won't lynch you.

This is not your town play not at all. You actually care about the game when you're town. Here you're just trolling, you don't care about getting accurate reads, you don't care about working with the town, you just care about being a troll and lynching town.

Titan. Titan. What's this? I know DGB is trying to get under your skin and all, but do you really think AtE is the right way to deal with it?

[Bulbazak]

Titan. Titan. What's this? I know DGB is trying to get under your skin and all, but do you really think AtE is the right way to deal with it?

You can't deal with that situation in the scum QT?

You mean the nonexistent one? But seriously, what are your reasons for a scumread on me? I'm genuinely interested, because this seems like trying to see what wild accusation will stick next.

[Bulbazak]

AA9 needs to vote. I'm not sure if Antilles has a strongish town read on both TUA and DGB, but if he doesn't, he needs to vote the other, as a MM lynch is not happening. I would like some more votes on DGB period, as there's no way her actions are town.

P-edit: Why not?

[Bulbazak]

DGB, iirc, you were all on board for voting for yourself if I joined in. Therefore, saying that I'm "a head-desk townie" is a rather blatant misrep, especially since you were my second choice lynch-wise.

^^^ This is a board-certified, 5-star rated, notarized, professional scum post.

How so?

[Bulbazak]

DGB, iirc, you were all on board for voting for yourself if I joined in. Therefore, saying that I'm "a head-desk townie" is a rather blatant misrep, especially since you were my second choice lynch-wise.

^^^ This is a board-certified, 5-star rated, notarized, professional scum post.

How so?

I'll give you some much-needed tips on how to improve your scum game

after

the game.

*snort* It's good to see DGB dipping into all the stupid. Means flailing, which means she's scum.

TUA is more likely scum than DGB

How so? Why is TUA scummier than DGB?

[Bulbazak]

RBD, what do you think of DGB's recent behavior?

[Bulbazak]

RBD, what do you think of DGB's recent behavior?

That she still is town.

They are both town because Antilles is scum. Seriously what town goes "hey this arguement between the two wagons right at deadline, this one is town" and then proceed to not vote either. No town. Scum might pull that move though.

Yeah, but he also declared a town read on DGB when he first returned, and I don't know if that still stands. If it does, then he's not voting either wagon for the same reason you aren't.

But I still don't understand how your incredibly strong scumread should blind you to the actions of other players. Even if you don't think she's scum, you should still have an opinion on her actions. That's all I want.

[Bulbazak]

It's good to see DGB dipping into all the stupid. Means flailing, which means she's scum.

Where are you getting this from?

She's stretching trying to turn anything she can into a scummy post. When I ask her why it's scummy, she doesn't answer, but implies that I play badly at scum and need help with my scum game, which is ludicrous. Essentially, she's grasping at straws.

[Bulbazak]

Antilles would be a good lynch, but I don't want DGB lynched, so there's no way that I am moving my vote unless someone from the DGB wagon goes first.

If I could be guaranteed that we'd get enough votes for a lynch, I'd switch in a heartbeat. But for the moment, I'm keeping my vote where it'll do the most good.

P-edit: The self-vote end of d1, the misreps, the hackneyed cases, and the inability to defend said cases, but instead troll and sling mud are town?!?

[Bulbazak]

If I could be guaranteed that we'd get enough votes for a lynch, I'd switch in a heartbeat. But for the moment, I'm keeping my vote where it'll do the most good.

DGB isn't being lynched today.
TUA will be.
If you want Antilles lynched, vote him I'll follow.

But that will still be only 3 votes. We need a lot more to make an Antilles lynch happen.

[Bulbazak]

If you get HD to agree to as well, I'll do it.

[Bulbazak]

Why the fuck are demanding HD be the one to do it?

Because HD was on the Antilles wagon earlier, and, as far as I know, he still has an Antilles scum read. If he switches over as well, that would put the Antilles wagon on even ground with the other 2 and increase the chance of the lynch going through. Without HD onboard, I'm not sure if the wagon stands a chance.

[Bulbazak]

The DGB wagon is close in number to the TUA one. If we can get one more person, or someone from the TUA wagon switches to DGB, the lynch on DGB will go through. DGB is also a strong scumread, so I'll stick it out here for now.

[Bulbazak]

Clever little scums.

Why did this make me think of Gollum...

[Bulbazak]

Why? Because I didn't want to leave a viable wagon on a scumread to a less viable one, without a guarantee that it would be viable again?

[Bulbazak]

Awesome new avatar and a conversation with Gollum. Best. Day. Ever.

[Bulbazak]

Wow... That's actually a good post MO.

[Bulbazak]

That's assuming that he's scum.

[Bulbazak]

Well, one good thing came out of this:

I don't see a UA/MO scumteam at all.

I also liked that end of day post. That screamed town. I would like MS's responses to me concerning the questions I asked about Antilles.

Need to think about this game some more. Hopefully I'll have a course of action when I get back.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbazak, does that mean you'll stop flooding space pressuring us/

Yeah. You were posting pretty town after our truce d2, especially that last post, and I had determined that both you and TUA couldn't be scum. So you're a strong town read now. I hope MS gets back, so we can do that group scumhunting thing that he mentioned.

[Bulbazak]

Anti-scum wagon day one:

Metal Overlord - Bulbazak, Underachivers, Antilles, Jennifer

Anti-scum wagon day two:

DrippingGoofball - Titan, DCLXVI, Underachivers, Jennifer, Bulbazak

So probably two of Bulb/Antilles/Jen/Titan/DCL here. Really I think it may just be a "kill them all" point in time.

I say Jen to start.

Just wanted to point out how bad this is. RBD, this may be a matter of playstyle clash, but at the very minimum, that's lazy, and at the most it's scummy, since you can point at this and avoid all responsibility for any and all mislynches that occur. Your obsession with policy lynches over actual scumhunting is increasing to the point of stupidity. Actual scumreads with actual scumtells, please and thank you.

Bulba: Who are your current scumreads? BB can answer this too (not counting Jen).

Still working on it. To be honest, TUA's flip has made me reexamine all of my other reads. As such, I'm going through a few ISOs to clarify things. However, I think I still feel pretty strongly about Antilles and DGB being scum. Antilles for the same reasons I stated d2.

DGB, is probably the stronger of the two, since I just finished going through her ISO to double check a few things. The biggest part of the case is her self-vote near the end of d1. I looked into what was going on at the time. DGB, although a big proponent of the TUA lynch, unvoted when TUA had reached L-2 and put the vote on herself. Unlike what she said later, she was not trying to keep MO from being lynched, as no other wagon was anywhere close to the TUA wagon, and therefore, neither MO nor KBW were in danger of being lynched at the time, and even if MO was, she could have always done what RBD and I did, which was vote KBW as a compromise lynch. This means that she was not adding pressure to what was supposed to be a major scumread of hers, but she was in fact taking pressure away, as others from the wagon focused their attention on her. Essentially, SHE PURPOSEFULLY DERAILED THE WAGON OF HER BIGGEST SCUMREAD. This anti-town behavior continued into d2, where she continued to spout AtE like it was going out of style. Concerning her other scumreads, which she's apparently pulling out of midair at this point, she refuses to explain them when asked, similar to Antilles when he was questioned. She is definitely the more dangerous of the 2, as I feel that if she is allowed to continue, she will cause the mislynch of several useful townies.

Vote Dripping Goofballs

I will let you know if anything changes after I finish going through the ISOs.

[Bulbazak]

Antilles is town, the scum was trying to divert the votes away from TUA last minute to Antilles because my lynch wasn't happening.

So you're saying that Zdenek is scum? Because he's the one that approached me on switching in the first place. I just wanted to be on a viable wagon that was also a scumread.

[Bulbazak]

Why is bulbazak scum?

Iso my posts from yesterday, it's all there.

Which is funny, because when I asked you why as well, you never answered.

I dared Bulbazak to vote me with a promise to vote myself if he did. At the moment that I was relentlessly pursuing the lynch of his buddy TUA, he pounces and takes me on that promise.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

So will I.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

this is a good idea.

vote:DGB

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

Waiting for reactions from our new players. I have no idea which way they're going to align themselves, and Antilles is still my preferred lynch. Regardless, I'll probably be crashing soon (caffeine...) and check back up on things when I wake. I expect to have my permanent vote down by 7pm, so if I don't see a move toward Antilles, I'll set my vote sometime between those times.

Nope. Good try though. I saw the clock inching towards deadline with my preferred lynch with zero traction, so I offered to switch to another strong scumread if TUA would join, since he had been asking people to vote without voting himself. Your offer came second, and was based off of my offer to TUA. I actually thought I was going to be gone from 7pm until the deadline, which was why I wanted my permanent vote down. It turns out that my schedule cleared up last minute.

Even if you don't think she's scum, you should still have an opinion on her actions.

If she thinks I'm town, why are you solliciting her opinion of my "actions?"

oh wait

It's because you're scum.

And that request from Bulbazak was to elicit bad feelings about my playerslot from a player that has me as a town-read.

There is NO TOWN MOTIVATION for that.

Bulbazak is scum.

Regardless of RBD's reads on you, she should have at least had some opinion or thought on recent events. She didn't have any thoughts whatsoever, which tells me that she was ignoring it. That type of mindset troubles me.

So out of six players that were on the direct counter to scum (or in one case SvSvMO) wagons, only TUA was on there?

I could maybe believe just one, but since its over multiple wagons and days I lean two. Particularly when you look at you and Antilles who has been on the wrong wagon twice in two days.

Okay, but why look at those wagons specifically? Why not look at everyone who was not on the scum wagon? Why not look at, say, AA9, who sat parked in the "no vote" section for both lynches? My point is that this method is lazy and filled with WIFOM, and tunnelvisioning on it will lead to no good. You should try some actual scumhunting. It's good for the soul.

[Bulbazak]

I'm done.

Lynch me before Scum start drawing associative tells that I had with KBW and TUA both.

I still think Jen is scum, I gave my case on it, Bulba and Titan are town as fuck and it surprises me that DBG is scum reading them, though my thoughts on DBG scum are slipping with each post she makes. I still think Antilles is town as well, especially after this last post he made.

Why are you done? This bit of AtE is not working for DGB, and it's not going to work for you.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: bulbazak

for trying to pass arguments on others to win the town cred.

What are you talking about?

[Bulbazak]

Okay, finished going through the ISOs. I'm looking at an Antilles/DGB/MM scum team. If you have any questions about it, just ask and I'll get back to you, but right now I have a headache, and I really need to get to bed.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, Titan and Syryana - all three are scum. I'm 100% on Bulbazak, 90% on Titan and 80% on Syryana.

Still waiting on those explanations...

[Bulbazak]

DGB, a scumread has zero merit if you can't explain it. I've asked you to explain your points before, and you've refused, which is anti-town. It's hard to address a case if it's non-existant, which shouldn't be the case if you have a 100% scumread on me. So yes, explain it.

[Bulbazak]

DGB, a scumread has zero merit if you can't explain it.

I already made a case a against you, you should self-vote.

Then maybe you should refresh my memory and quote it, because all I remember is unfounded accusations and you refusing to explain them when asked.

[Bulbazak]

I doubt RBD is scum. I believe Mastin when he says he doesn't bus. That read completely genuine, and I noted a complete lack of bussing on TUA's part. I read their tunneling on RBD to be them trying to push for a mislynch, rather than trying to distance from a scum partner. Sorry to break it to you, but RBD is probably town. Derp town, but town nonetheless.

[Bulbazak]

DGB, a scumread has zero merit if you can't explain it.

I already made a case a against you, you should self-vote.

Then maybe you should refresh my memory and quote it, because all I remember is unfounded accusations and you refusing to explain them when asked.

Scum, you are wasting my time.

Just as I thought...

[Bulbazak]

I noted a complete lack of bussing on TUA's part.

THEY VOTED KBW.

Actually, TUA unvoted KBW. They were not on the final wagon. If you read the thread you can clearly see hydra dissonance over bussing KBW. Nero wanted to bus him. Mastin, however, did not.

RBD is probably town, sadly. His reads are just awful.


Ms. Marangal
Titan
Syryana
Metal Sonic

^ Look at them.

I thought you wanted an MM lynch?

[Bulbazak]

I noted a complete lack of bussing on TUA's part.

THEY VOTED KBW.

Bulbazak is scum.

Sadly thats really Key regardless of alignment. He is one of those players that really seems like they dont care/try. For that reason though (as I already said) im beyond fine policy lynching him as I seriously think him dying right here increases our win chances no matter what he flips.

Vote KBW

ABORT!
ABORT!

Abort the KBW wagon NOW.

It's town, Otter's scum.

Memories...

A wild contradiction appeared!

[Bulbazak]

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

Waiting for reactions from our new players. I have no idea which way they're going to align themselves, and Antilles is still my preferred lynch. Regardless, I'll probably be crashing soon (caffeine...) and check back up on things when I wake. I expect to have my permanent vote down by 7pm, so if I don't see a move toward Antilles, I'll set my vote sometime between those times.

Hehehe...

[Bulbazak]

RBD is probably town, sadly. His reads are just awful.

M

s.

M

arangal

Titan
Syryana
Metal Sonic

^ Look at them.

I thought you wanted an

MM

lynch?

Reading comprehension, motherfucker! Do you have it?

Yes, do you?

[Bulbazak]

A wild contradiction appeared!

They did vote KBW,

Contradiction aborted.

And then Mastin yelled at Nero and unvoted.

Contradiction reappears.

[Bulbazak]

I'll be honest, I understood almost nothing of this post.

DGB Bulbazak is town. Push Titan instead and I'll be fine.

He's really not town, TUA was trying to get him on board a particular lynch in broad daylight.

Did I understand the OP that the scum doesn't have daytalk? If I read that right, TUA was trying to clue Bulbazak into a lynch scheme.

Are you talking about when I was trying to get a townread of mine to jump on the wagon of a scumread? Yes, because that is totally TUA driving a mislynch and getting his buddy onboard.

[Bulbazak]

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

this is a good idea.

vote:DGB

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

This is Bulbascum letting his buddy TUA know that if TUA switches his vote to a mislynch, Bulbascum will go for the kill, too.

I like how you switched from TUA running the show to me, because this case is not fabricated at all.

Going to do something I hate, which is write inside the quote, but it's necessary to show some of the utter stupidity here:

Here below is the vote count at the time of the conversation:

Scumread #2

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie

Scumread #1

Antilles - Rainbowdash, Bulbazak
Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal, Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

After the proposed action, the vote count would be:

Scumread #2

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie, Bulbazak, Underachievers

Scumread #1

:right:Antilles - Rainbowdash,

Bulbazak

Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal,

Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

...and giving the mislynch one more vote than the scumwagon.

Oh looky there, one of the wagons on one of my scumreads is magically viable. Surely it must be evil scum plotting.

Eventually, Bulbazak votes me, but only after letting Jennifer-town sneak on the wagon, maybe to avoid looking like a scum voting block:

The caffeine that's flooding Bulba's system finally decides to betray him, and he crashes into his bed a la #1463. He wakes up 4 hrs. later, catches up, and then finally places his vote.

DrippingGoofball - Titan, DCLXVI, Underachivers, Jennifer, Bulbazak
Antilles - Rainbowdash
Ms Marangal - Antilles
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal
Underachivers - DrippingGoofball, Human Destroyer, zdenek, BBmolla

The Underachivers - Leaning Town. I checked out Mastin's wiki after BBMolla called me Mastin 2.0 in Newbie 1333. It seems that he has a habit of making bad calls when it comes to reads. Therefore, I really can't use that as a scum tell. I also find him overjustifying his scumtells on AA9 and Otter to be townish. It just feels genuine. I don't like them freaking out about the possibility of being lynched. While no one wants to be lynched, scum is more likely to freak out in that matter than town. Them having bad luck with being lynched early in past games might explain it, but this is the reason why I'm not calling them full on town.

In the above post, Bulbazak makes pre-emptive excuses for TUA.

Pre-emptive excuses are super-scummy because only scum fears and anticipates future screw-ups and needs to make excuses for the screw-ups BEFORE they happen.

Pre-emptive excuse here about TUA:

"It seems that he has a habit of making bad calls when it comes to reads."

That's preparing the ground to anticipate TUA calling most townies "scum." Bulbazak continues and digs himself deeper:

"Therefore, I really can't use that as a scum tell."

When Bulbazak's spade handle cracks, he digs with his teeth:

"...Them having bad luck with being lynched early in past games..."

So we got two pre-emptive meta excuses for TUA's inevitable bad reads pushing for townie lynches, AND the feeling sorry for TUA's bad luck getting lynched early...

so give him a chance this game... it's just bad luck... don't make TUA feel terrible and early-lynch him again!

Blah, blah, misrep, blah.

[Bulbazak]

What is more likely for DGB-scum:

(1) Backpedal of a Titan mislynch in a nightless, while another player wants to lynch that slot and would help me?
(2) Backpedal on a Titan bus, while another player wants to lynch that slot and would help me?

I spy with my little eye, a heaping helping of WIFOM.

[Bulbazak]

RBD is probably town, sadly. His reads are just awful.

M

s.

M

arangal

Titan
Syryana
Metal Sonic

^ Look at them.

I thought you wanted an

MM

lynch?

Reading comprehension, motherfucker! Do you have it?

Yes, do you?

Clearly. She's at the top of the list I want people to look at. Or were you too dense to figure that out?

More to the point... why exactly are you wasting my time? You want to go on the permanent /ignore list, don't you?

Maybe I just misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were criticizing RBD on her scum reads, when the one player you've been pushing hard as scum is sitting on the top of the list. Then again, those could be RBD's town reads. You never specified, and at this point, I don't care enough to go look.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, I'd still like to know who you think is town.

HD, Titan, Syryana, Jennifer, MO, and AA9. DC, BBMolla, and RBD are probably town too.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, I'd still like to know who you think is town.

HD, Titan, Syryana, Jennifer, MO, and AA9. DC, BBMolla, and RBD are probably town too.

Explain Syryana.

The tables he used during his readthrough provide incredible transparency in thought, even if he doesn't take anymore time out to minutely explain them. Given the fact that the time length between his replacing in until his last table complete with vote is

over 5 hours

, I believe it's safe to say that he actually read the thread, which makes me believe even more that his reads were not faked. His vote for TUA, then, tracks, as he really did have that slot as scum from the very beginning (Check out the tables. That slot never moves.). He's asked a few pertinent questions since the day started and has actively scumhunted. It also helps that he is putting actual thought into this game and reading it, and that he seems to be one of the few that can actually see DGB for the scumbag she is. I'm sure people will say that the previous point in and of itself is not a good way to judge alignment, as Syryana could be doing so to buddy up with the DGB-scum camp. However, the way he goes about it reads genuine. The way he is able to defend his reads and take everything that DGB is throwing at him makes me sure in this townread, which is good, because DGB has essentially worn Titan and I down (It's hard to argue the points of a case that does not exist. DGB's method is essentially flinging poo, at a certain point you can't fight that.).

So that's why. For the record once again: genuine thought, effort, and scumhunting. To be honest, the reasons I felt that slot might be scum before were never enough to build a case, which is something that HD doesn't seem to understand. Syryana actually replaced in and gave that slot substance and material from which to judge its alignment.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: bulbazak

for trying to pass arguments on others to win the town cred.

What are you talking about?

[Bulbazak]

Answer that. Because I have no idea what you were saying.

[Bulbazak]

Its the way how you defend Jen, How do you know for sure that Jen is so town.

I don't. I just have a very strong townread on her, which I have explained several times.

And how you suspected me for putting Jen at L-1, how does that make me your suspicious...?

Actually, I never suspected you were scum for voting Jen. I just said your logic was bad. There's a difference.

[Bulbazak]

Also, the more a slot is replaced in a game, the more likely it is to be a scum slot.

That's Correlation Implies Causation, and has no bearing on how scummy a slot is.

[Bulbazak]

Also, the more a slot is replaced in a game, the more likely it is to be a scum slot.

That's Correlation Implies Causation, and has no bearing on how scummy a slot is.

No it's not. I said nothing about number of replacements implying how scummy the slot is.

Learn. To. Fucking. Read.

Actually you did. You said that the slot was more likely to be scum BECAUSE it had been replaced multiple times. There's an unsaid train of thought that behind this that goes something like this:

1. Players tend to replace out of scum slots more than town slots.
2. Syryana's slot has been replaced twice.
Conclusion: Syryana is more likely to be scum.

Now before anyone jumps on this for being Circular Reasoning instead of CIC, we need to first consider how Antilles first reached this conclusion. More than likely his experiences with player replacement involve a disproportionate amount of those player slots being scum. So we end up with this:

1. A player slot was replaced out.
2. That player slot flipped town.
Conclusion: Player slots that replace out are likely to be scum.

This IS Correlation Implies Causation. You've only compounded it with additional replacements. The simple fact of the matter is that player replacement is alignment neutral, as the reasons for it can never be known, and more often than not, they are never game related.

Say again that you didn't say that, and I will call it out for the contradiction and blatant scumposting that it is.

[Bulbazak]

It's nice to see Syryana continuing to fight the good fight, especially after Titan and myself had our confidence in the town shaken (or was that just me...). But Antilles being his boneheaded self has reawakened my zeal and given me a clear vision of what I must do. I considered cutting the following up into bite sized pieces, but no, you guys don't deserve that. So, I'm going to make you swallow a wall breaking down why I have narrowed it down to the following 3 scumspects, as well as address a few things.. However, I will be nice and divide it into sections, so you can read or ignore what you want.

Antilles:

You are clearly more interested in winning an argument than finding scum. Which means you're even more of an idiot than previously believed.

You know how you disassemble scum's lies? You argue with them and prove why what they said is wrong. I was being nice earlier, assuming that there may be some misunderstandings or an inherent flaw in your logic, but no, I was right originally, you're scum, hence your arguments are purposefully bad to drive a mislynch.

And whether or not

you think

the mental leap I made had anything to do with logical fallacies (and no, it did not), has no bearing on the fact that a) scum slots DO get more replacements -- I advise you to check yourself before you wreck yourself on this one buddy, and b) I know a lot more about mafia than you, I have played in countless more games than you, and my record as both town and scum blows yours out of the fucking water (yes, I checked your record out).

a.) It's still CIC, because slot replacements are still alignment neutral and can not be used as a reason to say someone is scum. Let's give some numbers from my short experience to exemplify this and show why it's a bad argument:

I mod games on another site (It's true.), and I've had to replace several people, mainly due to flaking. Out of 4 people that have flaked, only 1 was a mafia slot. That puts the ratio for replacement alignments at 3:1.

Next we'll move onto my first game on site, Newbie 1305. Out of 3 slots that replaced out, 2 were scum and 1 was town. Current ratio: 4:3.

Newbie 1333: 2 slots replaced - 1 scum, 1 town. Current ratio: 5:4

Newbie 1337: 3 slots replaced - 2 scum, 1 town Current ratio: 6:6

Amurika Mafia: 1 slot replaced - town Current ratio: 7:6

Add in undisclosed replacements of 2 town, that makes the ratio of town:scum slot replacements in my experience to be 9:6 or 3:2. As you can see, town barely wins out. That is a null tell. Deal with it.

b.) If you've looked me up, you know that I hate Burden of Proficiency. It's always a bad argument, and is always used as a means to discredit someone. In my opinion, it is more likely to either come from scum or arrogant town. Guess which one I think you are.

As far as my record, you still haven't gotten the full picture, and you've simply provided another reason why I need to finish my wiki.

Now to the posts that led to this little tirade in the first place:

I've read some Syryana posts. They stink. I'm perfectly fine with his lynch happening.

Also, the more a slot is replaced in a game, the more likely it is to be a scum slot.

Essentially, blah reasoning for agreeing with a lynch followed by a blatant logical fallacy to push it harder. Add in the fact that you contradicted yourself by saying you did not say a replaced slot is more likely to be scum and that you didn't place a vote after this, and we get the equivalent of you slinging your poo and seeing what sticks while staying far from the target.

RBD is probably town, sadly. His reads are just awful.


Ms. Marangal
Titan
Syryana
Metal Sonic

^ Look at them.

Actually took the time to go back and look at this post as well. Turns out I was right originally. As far as I can tell from RBD's ISO, these were people who were in her lynch pile. What I found strange was how you were calling what were essentially her scum reads awful, yet you shared a read in Ms. Marangal. That's why I was asking for clarification, which you never gave, just a big huffy non-response.

That's the main problem I have with Antilles. He never addresses the points against him. Instead, he implies or outright calls the other person stupid and hopes that discredits them enough that nobody will look at what was said. The last person who did that to me was Goodmorning in Newbie 1305, and she flipped scum. As such, it is a major scumtell of mine.

Ms. Marangal:

uuhhh... there are no PR's in this game Titan

and I'm seeing TUA as a stronger scum read the KBW, but not by much. I would much rather get Lurker lynched

and I'm defitenly not seeing MO scum

goddamn Posts

This makes me not want to lynch Marangal.

Actually, it's the exact opposite for me. Upon reading through her ISO, I found that MM made statements similar to the bolded throughout, normally about TUA and KBW. It essentially boils down to her saying that she believes them to be scum or that she would be good with their lynch but would rather vote someone else. It looks like distancing to me, while simultaneously pushing for a mislynch.

Her first posts of today were not good. She essentially copied what DGB had done d1, and got away with it.

I'm done.

Lynch me before Scum start drawing associative tells that I had with KBW and TUA both.

I still think Jen is scum, I gave my case on it,

Bulba and Titan are town as fuck and it surprises me that DBG is scum reading them

, though my thoughts on DBG scum are slipping with each post she makes. I still think Antilles is town as well, especially after this last post he made.

Yes, I realize that DC but the type of associations I had with Both flipped scum are pretty terrible, my scum reads are probably off this game, and at this point in time, I'm probably going to be a good person for scum to try and get a mislynch on.

We can afford to get rid of some of the people who will be used as distraction for scum so that people like Titan and Bulbazak have less interference to work with.

This I'm wary of, especially since MM seems to be complementing DGB's play (In the working well together sense). She takes the two strong town reads that DGB had been trying to discredit and call scum, and simultaneously shines a spotlight on them and says, "Look how town they are. Everybody should follow them and let them do what they do." These posts just don't feel right, and it seems as if they are meant to go hand-in-hand with DGB's attacks.

Dripping Goofballs: As I've explained, I hated her self-vote d1. Every reason she has given for it is false. A simple look at the vote count at the time could tell you that:

Votecount 1.23:

Metal Overlord - Bulbazak, zdenek, Underachivers
TheLurker - ms. marangal
Underachivers - Robocopter, Klick, Human Destroyer, keybladewielder, Jennifer, DrippingGoofball, Otterhorse (L-2)
keybladewielder - Antilles, RachMarie, Titan, TheLurker

Not Voting - Metal Overlord, Arcangel

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch and to no-lynch.

The Deadline is in (expired on 2013-04-06 22:45:22) or by 9:45 PM on April 6th, 2013.

The Mastin2 head of The Underarchivers is V/LA.

The TUA wagon was at L-2, and wasn't diminishing, so that's out. She tried to say later that she was trying to derail the MO wagon, but as you can see, that was not even viable, and there was no way that was going to happen. So that's disproven. The only thing that her self-vote served to do was diminish and draw attention away from the TUA wagon, which is funny, since she claimed to have wanted them lynched.

This little beauty needs to be seen to believed. Including the original posts, along with my responses:

I dared Bulbazak to vote me with a promise to vote myself if he did. At the moment that I was relentlessly pursuing the lynch of his buddy TUA, he pounces and takes me on that promise.

Why is bulbazak scum?

Iso my posts from yesterday, it's all there.

Which is funny, because when I asked you why as well, you never answered.

I dared Bulbazak to vote me with a promise to vote myself if he did. At the moment that I was relentlessly pursuing the lynch of his buddy TUA, he pounces and takes me on that promise.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

So will I.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

this is a good idea.

vote:DGB

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

Waiting for reactions from our new players. I have no idea which way they're going to align themselves, and Antilles is still my preferred lynch. Regardless, I'll probably be crashing soon (caffeine...) and check back up on things when I wake. I expect to have my permanent vote down by 7pm, so if I don't see a move toward Antilles, I'll set my vote sometime between those times.

Nope. Good try though. I saw the clock inching towards deadline with my preferred lynch with zero traction, so I offered to switch to another strong scumread if TUA would join, since he had been asking people to vote without voting himself. Your offer came second, and was based off of my offer to TUA. I actually thought I was going to be gone from 7pm until the deadline, which was why I wanted my permanent vote down. It turns out that my schedule cleared up last minute.

I'll be honest, I understood almost nothing of this post.

DGB Bulbazak is town. Push Titan instead and I'll be fine.

He's really not town, TUA was trying to get him on board a particular lynch in broad daylight.

Did I understand the OP that the scum doesn't have daytalk? If I read that right, TUA was trying to clue Bulbazak into a lynch scheme.

I'll be honest, I understood almost nothing of this post.

DGB Bulbazak is town. Push Titan instead and I'll be fine.

He's really not town, TUA was trying to get him on board a particular lynch in broad daylight.

Did I understand the OP that the scum doesn't have daytalk? If I read that right, TUA was trying to clue Bulbazak into a lynch scheme.

Are you talking about when I was trying to get a townread of mine to jump on the wagon of a scumread? Yes, because that is totally TUA driving a mislynch and getting his buddy onboard.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

this is a good idea.

vote:DGB

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

This is Bulbascum letting his buddy TUA know that if TUA switches his vote to a mislynch, Bulbascum will go for the kill, too.

TUA immediately agrees that this is a great idea! But Bulbascum doesn't vote right away and TUA gets impatient.

Here below is the vote count at the time of the conversation:

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie
Antilles - Rainbowdash, Bulbazak
Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal, Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

After the proposed action, the vote count would be:

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie, Bulbazak, Underachievers
Antilles - Rainbowdash,

Bulbazak

Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal,

Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

...and giving the mislynch one more vote than the scumwagon.

Eventually, Bulbazak votes me, but only after letting Jennifer-town sneak on the wagon, maybe to avoid looking like a scum voting block:

DrippingGoofball - Titan, DCLXVI, Underachivers, Jennifer, Bulbazak
Antilles - Rainbowdash
Ms Marangal - Antilles
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal
Underachivers - DrippingGoofball, Human Destroyer, zdenek, BBmolla

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

this is a good idea.

vote:DGB

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

This is Bulbascum letting his buddy TUA know that if TUA switches his vote to a mislynch, Bulbascum will go for the kill, too.

I like how you switched from TUA running the show to me, because this case is not fabricated at all.

Going to do something I hate, which is write inside the quote, but it's necessary to show some of the utter stupidity here:

Here below is the vote count at the time of the conversation:

Scumread #2

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie

Scumread #1

Antilles - Rainbowdash, Bulbazak
Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal, Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

After the proposed action, the vote count would be:

Scumread #2

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie, Bulbazak, Underachievers

Scumread #1

:right:Antilles - Rainbowdash,

Bulbazak

Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal,

Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

...and giving the mislynch one more vote than the scumwagon.

Oh looky there, one of the wagons on one of my scumreads is magically viable. Surely it must be evil scum plotting.

Eventually, Bulbazak votes me, but only after letting Jennifer-town sneak on the wagon, maybe to avoid looking like a scum voting block:

The caffeine that's flooding Bulba's system finally decides to betray him, and he crashes into his bed a la #1463. He wakes up 4 hrs. later, catches up, and then finally places his vote.

DrippingGoofball - Titan, DCLXVI, Underachivers, Jennifer, Bulbazak
Antilles - Rainbowdash
Ms Marangal - Antilles
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal
Underachivers - DrippingGoofball, Human Destroyer, zdenek, BBmolla

DGB couldn't get the simple facts of the game right in her rush to mislynch me and repeatedly contradicted herself, which led to me constantly correcting her. She started with her leading the DGB switch, to TUA, and finally getting it right with me. My reasoning has never changed. The Antilles wagon wasn't gaining any traction, the deadline was drawing nearer, and I saw an opportunity to create a viable wagon on a scumread. So I took it, after pausing to see what the new replacements would do, as well as taking a nap (Caffeine crash). It's not that hard to understand, as I explained my motives pretty clearly at the time as well.

Also add that DGB is the most anti-town player in this game. She's using AtE and WIFOM like it's going out of style, and like Antilles, she never addresses any point against her or make an adequate case against anyone. It's all accusation with little substance and attempts to discredit town players, and sadly, it appears as if the town is falling for it.

P-edit:

I'd still way rather lynch Syryana's buddy Bulbascum, because I'm more certain of Bulbascum.

Come at me, brah.

Why is Bulb scum Rainbow?

Not wanting to abandon DGB vote yesterday even though if he did leave the wagon the deadline lynch (TUA) would not be changed. If he got the TUA voters to leave the TUA wagon though the lynch would become Antilles. Basically camping where he was without further knowledge of how many would leave TUA for Antilles (he would need three votes + his) he stuck on DGB while seeming to prefer Antilles.

RBD, I believe I explained all this yesterday when asked. I preferred Antilles, but that wagon was not viable. DGB, who was another scumread of mine, did have a viable wagon. Zdenek wanted to know if I'd switch to Antilles with him, but I did the math and realized that doing so would not change the viability of the Antilles wagon, and would instead diminish the viability of the DGB wagon. I remembered that HD was one of the few that had a strong scumread on Antilles, so I wanted him on the wagon if I was to join, that way the Antilles wagon would be a viable lynch. I had already made that decision when I noticed that he was on the TUA wagon. The way I figured it was that we would have 3 tied viable wagons, 2 on scumreads of mine and 1 on TUA, who I honestly believed was probably town, if a plurality lynch occured, my town read would be safe, and either Antilles or DGB, I didn't know who nor did I care, would be lynched. Since both were scumreads, I was satisfied with that outcome.

[Bulbazak]

I do not understand Bulb's tunneling on her for the self-vote; if I recall correctly Bulb himself was attacked for his own RVS self-vote. Granted, I did see Bulb's self vote as "townier" than the one DGB did, but I suppose I should not take this point into consideration when condemning DGB.

My self-vote was something new I was trying in RVS. Let's just say that it really didn't work out like I thought, and really did more harm than good. Any reads that I thought I got from that move have since been called into question. The only good thing to come of that was the giant response post from Tammy, which led to a strong Titan townread. Overall, it was a bad move, and I'm never going to use it again.

DGB's, on the other hand, was outside of RVS and was made when a wagon that she was advocating, one on scum nonetheless, was at L-2. Her vote drew pressure and attention away from TUA, who she stated she was sure was scum, effectively derailing the wagon. Had she not done that, I believe TUA would have been lynched d1. She has stated multiple conflicting reasons why she did this, all of which I have shown to be false. Fact of the matter is that the move was very anti-town, and I believe it to be from scum motives.

Antilles and Marangal aren't playing a stellar game (I love you guys, you're playing well, just not stellar), they're the scum's easy lynch fodder.

Translation: "Hey you guys, step it up! I'm the only one carrying us!"

Bulbazak I am having a hard time with because I find his ISO really hard to read. I think that there is a good chance that he is blathering scum.

I'm pretty sure about that one.

It's going to be a scum flip, once we have this mod-confirmed everything else will fall into place.

You're more than welcome to try your luck.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak is flying under the radar, folks.

Nope, watching

Doctor Who

.

Reads (from towniest to scummiest):

Town:
Syryana
Titan
Jennifer
Metal Overlord
BBMolla
Human Destroyer

Nulls (town - scum):
Arcangel9
Zdnenek
Rainbowdash
DLCXVI
Klick

Scum:
Antilles
Ms. Marangal
Dripping Goofballs

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Ms. Marangal

We agreed on MM?

[Bulbazak]

No.

No way.

Both wagons today are on scum. What is this with the mislynch business.

COUNT ME OUT.

Complete anti-town sentiment.

[Bulbazak]

Both wagons today are on

scum

. What is this with the mislynch business.

SCUMSLIP!P!P!P!P!!!!!

*crosses fingers* Please let this be the beginning of the end for the DGB scumteam...

[Bulbazak]

Can somebody please explain why they have a town read on Jennifer? Preferably more than one person.

Antilles, all you have to do is look in my ISO. I've explained it at least 3 times.

[Bulbazak]

I think he was trying to paint the difference between your reads list d2 and your reads list now as a contradiction.

[Bulbazak]

Both wagons today are on

scum

. What is this with the mislynch business.

SCUMSLIP!P!P!P!P!!!!!

*crosses fingers* Please let this be the beginning of the end for the DGB scumteam...

That sentiment makes literally no sense coming from town.

DGB has been leading this town by the ears, and as I've said countless times before, this is detrimental to the town's wincon. I was hoping that BB's post was an indication that people were starting to see the light. I'm confident that DGB is scum, and that in order to win, he needs to be lynched. The sooner the better.

@ DGB: Zaicon was referring to DC, but nice try.

[Bulbazak]

So, why do you think that she was bussing TUA yesterday?

Town cred.

The better question should be why did she draw pressure and attention away from the TUA wagon on d1?

[Bulbazak]

The better question should be why did she draw pressure and attention away from the TUA wagon on d1?

To bus myself so that you lynch my other buddy instead and so I can lynch TUA better the next day?

Don't even try that nonsense. KBW was a compromise lynch. The question still stands no matter how much you try to discredit it.

Also, everyone on the Syryana wagon, please explain to me why you think that slot is scum.

For starters, I made a splendid case against Bulbazak, who is more scum than Syryana.

Syryana's wagon is 100% townies.

First, how can you be 100% certain of anything? Second, you didn't answer Zdenek's question.

DGB has been leading this town by the ears

If that were true, you'd be lynched already and we'd have our third scum flip in a row.

Never mind Syryana. I am rarely this certain that a player is scum. I am MORE certain that Bulbazak is scum, than even TUA or KBW.

I'm going to follow my scumhunting heart.

VOTE: Bulbazak

Bring it on. All I'm seeing is panicked scum realizing her mislynches might fail and town might actually hit scum for the third day in a row.

[Bulbazak]

<3 <3 <3
You cheeky, cheeky scumbag.

Right back at ya.

[Bulbazak]

Town cred.

No.

That is the scum motivation for doing it

, but obviously voting everyone who is voting for scum is stupid, especially when they lost a member on day one, which gives them incentive to not bus day two.

You asked why she would bus. The answer is simple: Town cred. The bolded above is stupid, as the very question you asked assumes she is scum. The KBW lynch meant nothing as far as town cred. TUA, on the other hand, would.

Not sure how to take this as a whole. This is just beyond stupid, especially since this issue of scum bussing has been endlessly discussed.

[Bulbazak]

I'd like to see if Bulbazak pans out. I'm sure it will. Once we have that, we can examine the minor characters. We'll have more clues from 3 dead scumbags.

What happened to all of that confidence?

[Bulbazak]

Vote: Bulbazak

Hmmm...

[Bulbazak]

What did KX think of MM?

[Bulbazak]

DGB is flinging accusations like they're going out of style. I'm going to check the vote count again and think about this. DGB is definitely the stronger scum read, but the MM wagon may be in the town's best interest, since it would help create a united front. Also, MM is a scum read as well, so there's that.

[Bulbazak]

DGB is flinging accusations like they're going out of style.

I have 3 scum reads, everyone else is town or prob-town, pretty much. That's hardly "flinging accusations" but you're scum, I shouldn't argue with scum. What am I doing...

Maybe accusation is not as precise a descriptor. How about this: You're flinging OMGUS like it's going out of style. Anyone who suspects you of being scum you immediately accuse of being scum themselves: Titan, Syryana, MO, myself, and who knows who else that I'm probably forgetting about at the moment. You're essentially widening your your list of scum for when one of your mislynches goes through. Seriously, is no one else paying attention to this game?

[Bulbazak]

I'm with BB on the plan to unify the town by lynching common scum reads. I therefore see it as town to either join the MM wagon, or to say why you do not think she is scum or deserves to be lynched. We need a unified front in order to move forward.

@Antilles: I'm always nervous about people who go after lurkers, because that's an easy way out.

[Bulbazak]

Back to the game though, Bulb is easily the lynch over Syryana here.

"Easily the lynch" does not equal the same thing as "more scummy".

@Zdenek: The last time I saw someone talk about the possibility of a modkill, he ended up being town, so, it's a null tell. However, add in an obsession with policy lynches and phrases such as "easily the lynch", and I wonder if you may be on to something.

@BBMolla: In your opinion, is it better to stay on this wagon and try to unify the town or to go back to my stronger scumread? Both are equally as viable, so I don't care either way. I just want to do what is best in this situation.

[Bulbazak]

@BBMolla: In your opinion, is it better to stay on this wagon and try to unify the town or to go back to my stronger scumread? Both are equally as viable, so I don't care either way. I just want to do what is best in this situation.

I'm not the one to ask here. As you can see my philosophy is sit back and vote someone who has a wagon who I remotely feel will flip scum.

Then what was with the push to get town unified by asking for reads and looking for a common scum read? Speaking of which, I don't believe you've ever given your reads. What are they?

[Bulbazak]

Why's that?

[Bulbazak]

Shhh...

Let your scumbuddy speak for herself.

[Bulbazak]

@Mod: I will be V/LA until Tuesday.

If there is a quick lynch while I'm gone, remember to lynch DGB and follow the holy grails of scumhunting (my wagon and my reads list.).

Vote Dripping Goofballs

For what it's worth...

[Bulbazak]

Antilles and Ms. Marangal, Vanila Townies turned Neutral Survivors, "Ritually cleansed" (aka modkilled) Day 3.

TOWNIES. The both of them.

DID I NOT SAY SO?

Translation: "Hey everyone, I correctly called 2 people town and am not so subtly reminding you! Please give me all the town cred, because scum can't possibly know anyone's alignment."

@AA9: What is your current reason for voting me? I rebutted your last line of reasoning, which you never responded back to, so is this some really strange form of OMGUS, or do you have actual legitimate reasons that couldn't be resolved by actually reading the game?

@Nacho: Why did you vote me and then in the space of 4 posts immediately unvote me? You seem to have a very solid town read on me, but I've been V/LA the entire time you've been posting in the game, so there was nothing I could have said or done to dramatically change your read.

I'm about 95% sure that DGB isn't scum because she was a counterwagon to scum yesterday, and keyblade voted her immediately before he voted underachievers. Meaning that your case *probably* won't convince me unless it's fucking amazing, and you should save your time putting cases on more pragmatic lynches.

First, trying to use KBW's interactions as a way to judge alignments is pretty ridiculous. He really didn't post much, so there's no guarantee that those tells can be trusted. You'd be much better off going through TUA's ISO, as there's much more to work with.

Second, the case on DGB:

As I've explained, I hated her self-vote d1. Every reason she has given for it is false. A simple look at the vote count at the time could tell you that:

Votecount 1.23:

Metal Overlord - Bulbazak, zdenek, Underachivers
TheLurker - ms. marangal
Underachivers - Robocopter, Klick, Human Destroyer, keybladewielder, Jennifer, DrippingGoofball, Otterhorse (L-2)
keybladewielder - Antilles, RachMarie, Titan, TheLurker

Not Voting - Metal Overlord, Arcangel

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch and to no-lynch.

The Deadline is in (expired on 2013-04-06 22:45:22) or by 9:45 PM on April 6th, 2013.

The Mastin2 head of The Underarchivers is V/LA.

The TUA wagon was at L-2, and wasn't diminishing, so that's out. She tried to say later that she was trying to derail the MO wagon, but as you can see, that was not even viable, and there was no way that was going to happen. So that's disproven. The only thing that her self-vote served to do was diminish and draw attention away from the TUA wagon, which is funny, since she claimed to have wanted them lynched.

This little beauty needs to be seen to believed. Including the original posts, along with my responses:

I dared Bulbazak to vote me with a promise to vote myself if he did. At the moment that I was relentlessly pursuing the lynch of his buddy TUA, he pounces and takes me on that promise.

Why is bulbazak scum?

Iso my posts from yesterday, it's all there.

Which is funny, because when I asked you why as well, you never answered.

I dared Bulbazak to vote me with a promise to vote myself if he did. At the moment that I was relentlessly pursuing the lynch of his buddy TUA, he pounces and takes me on that promise.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

So will I.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

this is a good idea.

vote:DGB

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

Waiting for reactions from our new players. I have no idea which way they're going to align themselves, and Antilles is still my preferred lynch. Regardless, I'll probably be crashing soon (caffeine...) and check back up on things when I wake. I expect to have my permanent vote down by 7pm, so if I don't see a move toward Antilles, I'll set my vote sometime between those times.

Nope. Good try though. I saw the clock inching towards deadline with my preferred lynch with zero traction, so I offered to switch to another strong scumread if TUA would join, since he had been asking people to vote without voting himself. Your offer came second, and was based off of my offer to TUA. I actually thought I was going to be gone from 7pm until the deadline, which was why I wanted my permanent vote down. It turns out that my schedule cleared up last minute.

I'll be honest, I understood almost nothing of this post.

DGB Bulbazak is town. Push Titan instead and I'll be fine.

He's really not town, TUA was trying to get him on board a particular lynch in broad daylight.

Did I understand the OP that the scum doesn't have daytalk? If I read that right, TUA was trying to clue Bulbazak into a lynch scheme.

I'll be honest, I understood almost nothing of this post.

DGB Bulbazak is town. Push Titan instead and I'll be fine.

He's really not town, TUA was trying to get him on board a particular lynch in broad daylight.

Did I understand the OP that the scum doesn't have daytalk? If I read that right, TUA was trying to clue Bulbazak into a lynch scheme.

Are you talking about when I was trying to get a townread of mine to jump on the wagon of a scumread? Yes, because that is totally TUA driving a mislynch and getting his buddy onboard.

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

this is a good idea.

vote:DGB

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

This is Bulbascum letting his buddy TUA know that if TUA switches his vote to a mislynch, Bulbascum will go for the kill, too.

TUA immediately agrees that this is a great idea! But Bulbascum doesn't vote right away and TUA gets impatient.

Here below is the vote count at the time of the conversation:

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie
Antilles - Rainbowdash, Bulbazak
Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal, Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

After the proposed action, the vote count would be:

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie, Bulbazak, Underachievers
Antilles - Rainbowdash,

Bulbazak

Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal,

Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

...and giving the mislynch one more vote than the scumwagon.

Eventually, Bulbazak votes me, but only after letting Jennifer-town sneak on the wagon, maybe to avoid looking like a scum voting block:

DrippingGoofball - Titan, DCLXVI, Underachivers, Jennifer, Bulbazak
Antilles - Rainbowdash
Ms Marangal - Antilles
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal
Underachivers - DrippingGoofball, Human Destroyer, zdenek, BBmolla

TUA, if you switch to DGB, I will too.

this is a good idea.

vote:DGB

Why are you not voting DGB, Bulb?

This is Bulbascum letting his buddy TUA know that if TUA switches his vote to a mislynch, Bulbascum will go for the kill, too.

I like how you switched from TUA running the show to me, because this case is not fabricated at all.

Going to do something I hate, which is write inside the quote, but it's necessary to show some of the utter stupidity here:

Here below is the vote count at the time of the conversation:

Scumread #2

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie

Scumread #1

Antilles - Rainbowdash, Bulbazak
Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal, Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

After the proposed action, the vote count would be:

Scumread #2

DrippingGoofball

- Titan, RachMarie, Bulbazak, Underachievers

Scumread #1

:right:Antilles - Rainbowdash,

Bulbazak

Ms Marangal - BBmolla, Antilles, Jennifer
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal,

Underachivers

Underachivers

-

DrippingGoofball

, Human Destroyer, zdenek

...and giving the mislynch one more vote than the scumwagon.

Oh looky there, one of the wagons on one of my scumreads is magically viable. Surely it must be evil scum plotting.

Eventually, Bulbazak votes me, but only after letting Jennifer-town sneak on the wagon, maybe to avoid looking like a scum voting block:

The caffeine that's flooding Bulba's system finally decides to betray him, and he crashes into his bed a la #1463. He wakes up 4 hrs. later, catches up, and then finally places his vote.

DrippingGoofball - Titan, DCLXVI, Underachivers, Jennifer, Bulbazak
Antilles - Rainbowdash
Ms Marangal - Antilles
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal
Underachivers - DrippingGoofball, Human Destroyer, zdenek, BBmolla

DGB couldn't get the simple facts of the game right in her rush to mislynch me and repeatedly contradicted herself, which led to me constantly correcting her. She started with her leading the DGB switch, to TUA, and finally getting it right with me. My reasoning has never changed. The Antilles wagon wasn't gaining any traction, the deadline was drawing nearer, and I saw an opportunity to create a viable wagon on a scumread. So I took it, after pausing to see what the new replacements would do, as well as taking a nap (Caffeine crash). It's not that hard to understand, as I explained my motives pretty clearly at the time as well.

Also add that DGB is the most anti-town player in this game. She's using AtE and WIFOM like it's going out of style, and like Antilles, she never addresses any point against her or make an adequate case against anyone. It's all accusation with little substance and attempts to discredit town players, and sadly, it appears as if the town is falling for it.

Honestly Nacho, I can't see any of DGB's actions coming from town. Saying that she is town, because KBW voted for her once is not going to cut it.

@BBMolla:

@BBMolla: In your opinion, is it better to stay on this wagon and try to unify the town or to go back to my stronger scumread? Both are equally as viable, so I don't care either way. I just want to do what is best in this situation.

I'm not the one to ask here. As you can see my philosophy is sit back and vote someone who has a wagon who I remotely feel will flip scum.

Then what was with the push to get town unified by asking for reads and looking for a common scum read? Speaking of which, I don't believe you've ever given your reads. What are they?

I still want an answer.

KBW is not capable of fluid.

With a single game example where he lurked as scum (he didn't lurk here)

What are peoples' takes on BBmolla?

I'll let you know after he responds to my question.

Vote Dripping Goofballs

In the meantime, I'm going to go examine my wagons from d3 and today. I can probably find at least one of DGB's partners somewhere on there.

[Bulbazak]

@BBMolla: In your opinion, is it better to stay on this wagon and try to unify the town or to go back to my stronger scumread? Both are equally as viable, so I don't care either way. I just want to do what is best in this situation.

I'm not the one to ask here. As you can see my philosophy is sit back and vote someone who has a wagon who I remotely feel will flip scum.

Then what was with the push to get town unified by asking for reads and looking for a common scum read?

[Bulbazak]

Making an important post before I die. If anyone hammers me before I post it, they better be tomorrow's lynch.

[Bulbazak]

Wagon analysis (featuring everyone ever on the wagon):

D3:

Dripping Goofballs

,

Arcangel9

,

Rainbowdash

,

Zdenek

, Metal Overlord
D4:

Dripping Goofballs

,

Zdenek

,

Arcangel9

,

Rainbowdash

, Nachomama8, BBMolla, DCLXVI

Looking at commonalities, that gives us

Arcangel9

,

Rainbowdash

, and

Zdenek

. I have a strong town gut read on Zdenek, so that leaves AA9 and RBD. Either is likely to be scum, although I'm leaning toward RBD.

Now for my actual reads:

Town:

Syryana

Titan

Jennifer

Metal Overlord
Human Destroyer
Arcangel9

Null (From towniest to scummiest):
Zdenek
Nachomama8
Rainbowdash

Scum:
DCLXVI
BBMolla
Dripping Goofballs

Those bolded are my strongest town reads, and they should be trusted at all costs if town is to win this game. The first thing that you should do tomorrow is to lynch DGB. She will try to say that I was acting very scummy and that town shouldn't blame themselves. She will then move on to another strong townie to mislynch and then another unless town will stop her. Don't be fooled by anything she says. She is scum, and if you keep her alive, town will lose this game.

I can't stress this enough.

DGB has to die tomorrow, or else we will lose. After that, follow my lists and the strong town reads to find the rest of the scum team.

A final answer to Jennifer: Yes, I do find BBMolla to be scummy. I was going to hold out until after Nacho responded back to me, but there seems to be no point now. I thought he was town because of the way he sought to rally everyone together d3, but his most recent explanation of his play this game blatantly contradicts this. He was not "sitting back and voting someone" who he thought was scum. Instead, he was active and involved and leading the MM lynch. But the clincher is his actions around Nacho. There is some definite buddying going on there. I see Nacho's vote on me as a reaction test, which BB failed. BB voted for me immediately after Nacho did, with Nacho removing his vote soon after. When Nacho moved his vote to Syryana, BBMolla eventually moved his vote there as well. I've also had the opportunity of playing against him when he was town, and it was nothing like his play this game. After you guys lynch DBG, you should lynch BBMolla the next day.

See you guys on the other side.

[Bulbazak]

You are more than welcome to lynch me, and then you can die the next day, followed by your scumbuddies.