NY 170: Georgetown II (Game Over)

[Thor665]

If that's what you believe you're voting wrong.

[Thor665]

Hi. I was on both the bulb and the ABR lynch. You can stop calling me useless now.

Since when is being 'right' and being 'useful' synonymous? You know exactly what I mean.

Thor what's your scum pile outside PJ? I'm curious on your reads of Rainbow, Kab and inhim right now and if they have changed.

In order;

Maybe scum, I don't think he's scum, and town.

Those are also probably in reverse order of how strongly I believe each of them. InHim is just a flat out town read for me and it's for the reasons expressed yesterday as regards his interactions with me and his votes during the ABR push. It doesn't feel like a bus - at all. Kab is...an itch, I'll agree. However, I'm accepting prima facie the meta about him and, also, for how useless he's been he's...y'know, been relatively forthright in expressing thoughts. Really, the worst scumtell I could paste to him is that I'm the only one defending him, meaning that if he's a mislynch no one is bothering to white knight him...except I sorta think Bulba defended him too. Eh, if I thought he was a lynch today maybe I'd bother researching it, but I just don't think he's wise. Rainbow is a much larger 'meh' area for me. I still find her scummy, I'm just personally not really expecting there to have been two wagons on scum yesterday and also find PJ's interactions yesterday in and line and of equal value to my issues with Rainbow yesterday. I even think both slots are being equally anti-town in their actions today. I would maybe even go so far as to say that the only reason I picked PJ over RBD today is simply a gut vibe, and I'm not sure what gave it to me. If we lynch one today and they flip town I'm likely to want to lynch the other the next day. But right at this stage PJ feels like a good lynch to me. My scum pile outside of PJ would be Thesp and RBD with a strong preference for RBD and, if down to just Thesp, I'd probably debate between him and you.

What is your take on those three?

seems very incorrect to me, because I would put the odds of scum killing someone in the elimination pool very near to zero, and the odds of scum killing someone in the town pool near 100%. Let's say hypothetically that kaboom is town. Is he gonna get NK'd tonight? Scum has used a fairly straightforward and successful NK strategy so far: kill helpful and townread players. I can't imagine they'd stop now.

^^^
Gets it.

[Thor665]

You're clearly horribly misreading something since I never indicated this.

[Thor665]

AKA I'm pretty sure I have done more to lynch scum this game than you.

Avoiding debate about who has "caught moar scumz!" which we could debate, but with the only value being derp - the simple question Sotty is this - do you think you have been participating to your usual and/or appropriate levels?
If your answer is yes then I'm sad for the new you and I'll concede the point but change my perception of you.
If your answer is no, then I don't care who has been more accurate (and neither should you) because then you know I have a point.
The very fact your answer included commentary about 'reading up' tends to, y'know, show I have a point, and that you know I have a point, and that you're just slapping at me because it kinda stung, but it only stung because...I had a point.

Just the way her wagon was going yesterday and instead of fighting it she just wanted us to lynch you the next day. I mean, I just don't buy scum giving up.

I don't agree with this. Town giving up is just as much bad play as scum giving up. I agree she gave up - as a result I think she played poorly for her team, whatever her team happens to be.
I don't get why I should read it as town tell.

inhim is town like I thought, but didn't you have some suspicions on him yesterday? Or am I mixing that up with Thesp? I'll have to look back. I just remember people pushing weakSmurf scumminess on him.

It wasn't me. I think PJ did though.

I'm going to look back on the vote exchange between Thesp's slot and bulb in the early game, you were quick to clear his slot for that despite not reading day one, can you detail why?

I thought the ABR interactions didn't look scum/scum. No other reason.

I'm not really with your wavelength on either Emerald or Shroomish - I'll even toss out that you're calling Shroomish scummy for basically giving up, which you call a town tell on RBD. I'll agree, different types of giving up - but it serves my point of suggesting that giving up is a playstyle more than an alignment tell. I don't think I "try less hard" when I'm a given alignment instead of another. The concept seems silly.

Would there be value in me making an Emerald town case? I feel like it wouldn't be too hard and I'm confused that you're scumreading the slot considering my read on it.

[Thor665]

you said thesp was your town read..but in that post of yours you said he is your 3rd preferred lynch.

also in case you didnt notice your reads are same as mine. and still you call my reads lazy! :/

Yes, I did say that, if after my top two scum reads both flip town then I would start lynching from my town reads pool because it shows I was wrong.
That is hardly the same as advocating that we lynch Thesp *today*.
I don't even understand how this confuses you - at some stage I'm going to have a town read as a preferred lynch if I work out hypothetical town flips and discuss my reactions to them, which is what I was specifically doing there.

[Thor665]

Also, i wasn't aware I called your reads lazy.
I called your play lazy.

[Thor665]

@Thor
I had a townread on garmr day 1, and the bulba flip makes garmr's fights with bulba feel more town. Check out 1409. This kinda makes me think Thesp [Discode [garmr]] is town.

Here is an Emerald town case, pretty much self contained in one post.

Thor is all like "blarggity! Let'sa lynch dis guy!"

Emerald responds with "here is a reasoned explanation for why I think that is a bad case with an example showing that I am aware of interactions with the scum and a reasonable set of proof that I am scumhunting"

That looks really quite town to me.
Work through your pout and discuss.

[Thor665]

I suppose my sarcasm on this point was unclear. I totally agree with you that the concept of "counterwagon" in this kind of game is a bit silly. I thought I was being clearly silly, since I had been going back and forth with Thor on this quite a bit yesterday, since he seemed against a RainbowDash wagon solely on the reason that she was a "counterwagon to scum". I tried multiple times to elicit more clear responses from him on this point (the post you quoted being one such moment), which fell on deaf ears.

It was a counter when there was 2+ scum - making it a different counter than the logic that PJ is using to suggest a counter is unlikely, and making your agreement on it while bouncing it back in time to the other to be for me.

Coming pack to this post, this is something I looked for in the re-read and didn't see at all. Can you show me what you thought was organic about the shift? It looked very abrupt to me.

Since when does "abrupt" preclude "organic"?
He asked me about a case, a side case that I was pushing without a lot of attention, for the record. He initiated on it with an expression of not buying the case. He looked at the evidence. He suddenly vote shifted, functionally getting the wagon rolling at that stage.

You're calling this...a bus?

[Thor665]

And now that you have?

[Thor665]

And now that you have?

I thought your answer was useful in ascertaining you better. (Sorry if I don't have anything big and grand for you on this point.)

So did it look organic or not to you, and also do you think it makes him look town or not?

[Thor665]

I will admit I frankly take PJs last post as a scum claim.

[Thor665]

Actually in my infinite brilliance I read RBD's post and then applied to to PJ, so to go from a "reading and trying to provide content" to providing what RBD did with commentary about lynching PJ or Thesp...it read really bad.
I'm sleep deprived.
Ignore me!

[Thor665]

I can honestly say I didn't even consider it.

You also apparently think no one bussed ABR and that if any bussing happened on Bulba it was done last minute. So it's not like you're coming that far out of left field compared to us. Why do you find our stance unusual then?

[Thor665]

So yes, that is exactly what you are doing. Even if you are avoiding actually saying it.

And this is obviouslly silly, because by your vote you're indicating that both of us could be town, and even if your reads are 100% at least one of us is town - so at least one town player is "avoiding saying it?"



But, yeah, the serious question is above.

[Thor665]

What's your Sotty case?

Also, how does your Thesp case work in relation to Emerald's 'Garmr wuz town' case discussed by me and him and later re-hashed when I made a town case for Emerald?

[Thor665]

And now that you have?

I thought your answer was useful in ascertaining you better. (Sorry if I don't have anything big and grand for you on this point.)

So did it look organic or not to you, and also do you think it makes him look town or not?

[Thor665]

Why doesn't it feel organic to you?

[Thor665]

I really feel like all of your commentary shouldn't just be taking him off the table "anytime soon" but rather simply off the table.
Listen to yourself - you're saying he was hard defending ABR...and then quick reversed suddenly?

Like...seriously, what do you think his scum plan was there? "Have to defend ABR, must protect him, watch as I crush Thor's case...oh, Thor has a case? IMMEDIATE BUS!"
I don't even understand the motivation you're pegging him with here.
Clarify?

[Thor665]

I also don't even recall him being loud or proud about his ABR bus, but I don't recall his vote moving or even twitching either.
Which, y'know, defeats the purpose of the bus and also prevents it from looking like a desperation/distancing bus.

[Thor665]

So you didn't think the interaction looked organic...but didn't even know where the interaction happened.

1579 and 1671 would be the interaction.

I've also already expressed my thoughts on RBD as recently as 2433 (posted...yesterday) Did I do something that made you think my reads had changed between now and then?

[Thor665]

I mean really, we're fighting over just how much we think inHimshallIbe is town, rather than who scum is.

My perception of you is not that you're presenting him as a town read in any way, shape, or form.

[Thor665]

Conversely, I feel like you might be setting him up for potential lynch and am trying to see if I can discern legit town attitude in that discussion or not. I'll admit I don't feel happy with what I've found thus far and it's frustrating because you feel skeevy in this interaction.

[Thor665]

I felt I instigated this discussion because you listed him as a scum read.

[Thor665]

Looking back, I feel vindicated in my belief but feel you can be vindicated in yours as well. Meh. I just have a negative knee jerk towards questions that go nowhere apparent. Carry on.

[Thor665]

@Mod - on that note can we get a petroleum prod (rimshot) it has been over 48 hours since his last post here. We are actually only about 2 hours away from your 60 hour mark as of this post.

[Thor665]

Going back to rereading now.

Is this part still on the docket? I'm just wondering how long the PJ town case discussion will be and when the more interesting stuff will show up.

[Thor665]

'Scotty' is also a she, in case that helps.

I'll admit the way I remember her name is I always think of girls doing shots...I'm not sure what that does of my opinions and interactions with her, but that's my method.
I will say Post 2530 was pretty much win in my book.

@Thesp - how unlikely do you find it that three members of a scumteam would vote someone?

[Thor665]

If he was "hard bussing" him or anything like that, how did he keep managing to get off him when other wagons happened. For that matter how is he only voting him in two VCs, the entire game? I think you are overselling the interactions quite a bit. I am not arguing that Bulb didn't interact with him, but the attack really didn't come with much in the form of votes.

I like those though. There's little reason to bus a buddy without bothering to put a vote on them, and constant attacks even while voting others reads to me like a planned mislynch.

And I really don't understand why Thesp got so much heat at the beginning of the day,. Anyone care to explain?

Why don't you specifically address this to someone you thought was putting heat on Thesp and request their reasons?

[Thor665]

8.)

Thor665, I am going to politely ask you to stop being a Smurf towards me. (This also applies to Sotty7 to a lesser extent). You have been particularly dismissive towards my play, and it quite honesty makes me regret replacing in and encourages me to not bother putting my time into this game. I am devoting as much time as I feel I can devote to the game, and I am going about my play in the order that makes the most sense for me.

And I have expressed that I find it to be lacking. You have, in this pose, expressed that my predecessor should have posted more and made himself more readable. You did the same t multiple players, indicating that thier play was underwhelming or not active enough or too predictable and that they were not playing to a standard you found helpful for the town. As far as I can tell these are the exact same expressions.

Do you think you are a Smurf for saying that to them?
If not, then I do not understand how I am for saying the same sort of opinion back to you.

To answer your question, yes, I was (and still am) in the process of rereading. Because I am not completely oblivious to the game-state, I recognize that I may well be lynched before I finish my reread. I can even see an argument that I am stalling (as of Day Five, that is) because it has almost been a week and I still have not finished my reread (which is an argument I

can

understand, even though I know it is not actually the case). Therefore I decided it would be worth my time to explicitly argue why I am Town.

I massively and strongly disagree, and find your town case to be unhelpful to the town.

I get that you're gruff, grumpy, or whatever. But please tone it down -- it feels more like you are undermining me as a person than you are trying to scumhunt. I do not respond well to players who seem to be pushing my emotional buttons. Thanks in advance.

I would counter for you to quote me attacking you on anything other than your play.
I do think it is within my rights in the game to suggest that someone's play is bad - that's part of the game.
At that point you're basically treading a line of 'well, you can call my play bad and anti-town...but do so in a nicer way' and...well, I haven't dropped any curse words at you. I haven't attacked you personally. I *have* been present and constant in my expression that you are underperforming (a situation you yourself appear to be aware of) so...what is within my correct scope as town? Should I allow the underperforming slot I find scummy to pass without comment? Because that appears to be where this is edging.

If I offended you personally - I apologize.
But I do not apologize for pointing out how scummy and anti-town and stagnating, and bad I find your play. I need to, as a player, be able to express that to advance my wincon.

[Thor665]

Who is casso??!!
is that your second account thor??!!

It's a hydra.
That's why I repeated exactly what it said and posted it under this account immediately afterwards - I'm not sure how that's confusing.

[Thor665]

Use less exclamation points if you don't want to seem like you're freaking out?

[Thor665]

1. I am sorry that I don't find your contributions worthy of encouragement? Okay, fine, you work really hard for them. You find my contributions to be mean and dismissive, I consider my contributions functional and pointed. Everyone looks at the world through their own viewfinder. Frankly, it hasn't been till you've gotten annoyed at me that I felt you started talking straight...which is probably one of the reasons I've developed a confrontational style. I *am* attempting to downplay and dismiss your no lynch concept. That is my flat out openly stated goal, because I disagree with the strategy. Conversely, you are trying to still advance your strategy and keep suggesting that I am bad for not advocating it. Both of us are, again, doing the same thing. This is how the game works.

2. I agree.

3. Advocating 'no lynch' is not a justification for slow playing as way to try to bribe through your 'no lynch' preference.

4. You don't actually reach enough of a conclusion for me to offer feedback here. At least you have only another 800 posts or so to go.

[Thor665]

Still following along, still happy with my vote on RainbowDash. I haven't seen anything from petroleumjelly to change my town read on him, and he's seeing similar things that I did on my re-read. I agree with the Sotty7 townread (for the same reasons petroleumjelly states).

Yeah, for me it's more a contest between the two to try to be less helpful. I do agree it's probably one of them. I don't feel PJ actually gave a Sotty town read, he gave a town lean and then mealy-mouthed it, and none of it much matters until seen in perspective of the rest of his reads. I will agree him dropping the Sotty scum case feels generically good at this stage though.

[Thor665]

Arguing that it is "namby" is vacuous.

Also, just clicking back.

My 'psssh' reply responded to a post that included this.

PJ finds me going 'psssh' to be insulting to his efforts this game.
Him calling me and/or my beliefs 'vacuous' is fine.

The thing is, I think both replies are fine.
But in his world only I am being harsh and dismissive.
Psssh

[Thor665]

I am an aggressive guy, aren't I?

[Thor665]

@PJ - in answer to your #2, I don't care whether you thought I was or wasn't being vacuous - I was simply noting that it seemed iffy (or namby, or hypocritical - whichever word pleases you) to complain about me dismissing your stance while, likewise dismissing mine, and like me, using harsh language. If you disagree that vacuous is harsh (or insulting or demeaning or whatever word pleases you) then my counter to your issue with me can be the same. At that point I dismiss your complaint. That's what I'm saying. I am fine with you finding my argument to be empty - I disagree, but I am not emotionally hurt by your charge nor do I care to get into the debate since a no lynch seems unlikely and therefore I don't need to convince others my position is right.

@Sotty - is a vote coming into play anytime soon?

[Thor665]

Thor voted ABR and quickly unvoted at first opportunity on Day Two. On Day Three he waited, waited, waited to vote ABR, which I've already noted and still feel very iffy about.

On Day 3 I voted him immediately, created the wagon on him, had the wagon momentum die, went elsewhere, had the momentum return, and then voted ABR.
Yes, true and classic bussing.

[Thor665]

Why do you town read PJ? PJ is openly admitting to slow and awkward play and his defense is that he'd look better if he was scum - did you know this about him already? Really believe his explanation? Or what?

[Thor665]

If two people are thinking like you are that's why we have a drawn out day like today - so why not be the one who puts PJ at L-1?

[Thor665]

I guess apologies to PJ - I just felt he was slightly more likely than RBD.

I still hate his no lynch plan

[Thor665]

and i m very sorry for my almost no contribution. This is not the way i play.i feel bad cos pj should have lived. He got lynched even after his contribution and i was alive even though i hardly did anything. Though i tried to lynch rainbow but it was too late.

The difference was we'd figured out you were town, and PJ did not have that going for him. I accept your apology as long as you don't do stuff like that again.

[Thor665]

I am super glad Bulbazak got lynched when he did. I am uncertain that there would have been a better time for that to happen. I think it was a perfect storm of events that facilitated it.

Agreed.

[Thor665]

To clarify the above - I didn't have a good read on Bulba scum - if I'd gotten my RBD lynch that day I probably would have continued to miss him for a few days and used my town energy to bully other lynches through.

[Thor665]

I should have been more inflexible

I'm glad you weren't inflexible on obv. town Emerald or on InHim.

[Thor665]

You should do those more.

[Thor665]

15 vts vs 3 scum is also OP town

No its not. If anything that's OP scum.

I kind of disagree with both statements. I think it's about as balanced as history has shown.

Game balance is fine. If anything I would expect scum to win slightly more often than Town. Town just actually did a good job of narrowing down the scum in this game; usually there is at least one scum who is just considered Town and takes home the game. In Mountainous Games, it only takes one, and there are

no

tools to catch them by. (The best tool for catching good scum in a Mountainous game is just having more lynches or forcing more nightkills so "Town"-scum have to inexplicably keep surviving nightkills; and, of course, a general willingness for the Town to reassess its opinions).

20:4 has been run before, and scum crushed (MrBuddyLee got his title from such a game). The norm was 10:2 but scum won so often (i.e., never lost a single game) that the norm became 11:2 to give the Town an extra lynch. Even then I am fairly confident scum has had a ridiculously high win percentage. 16:3, then, is

well

within the range of balanced both in theory and practice.

I can agree with this, it's more backup than I had.
Though I still advocate being confident in your reads precludes no lynching as a good strategy.

Wow, so guess if I hadn't mistakenly hammered we would still be going O.O
GG all. It was really fun.

...maybe. I dunno, probably, I'm not a speed lyncher at heart.

Huntress- +1 to shorter day and night deadlines. Maybe keep 2 weeks until around 50% of players are alive. Then maybe reduce day deadline to 1 or 1.5 week.

I'm not sure how I feel about this - to a certain extent conversation is the one power of this game, and I think scum need it as much as anyone. As a scum player I would appreciate the ability to drag out days and punish town for not being able to get their act together.

Maybe adjust the nights by allowing scum to say when their discussion is over?
It does appear that the scum didn't need the nights as long as they were, I'll admit.

[Thor665]

I also agree that Rainbowdash's resigned posts about who to lynch after her death were very convincing and almost caused me to pull off and push for kabooooom first.

[Thor665]

I frown upon those who take 'resignation posts' as a town tell. It falls into the 'town are okay being lynched' tell which I find equally deplorable. I also think 'lynch X after I die, they are scumz!' is one of the most basic scum moves, honestly.

[Thor665]

And I keep playing with shorter replies - I used to be a wall fiend and I can and will still wall at the drop of a hat.
I actually tend to go shorter when I'm really trying to make a point...maybe that doesn't work?

[Thor665]

I dunno. I find it easy to fake tone and usually expect others to be the same - sometimes it helps me and sometimes it hurts me.

[Thor665]

The problem is - most people operate on different wavelengths. I go short to try to catch the people like you. I go longer to try to catch the Thesps. It's why i often post walls and then do little bullet point add ons in the next few minutes.

Mostly I just want attention

[Thor665]

I'm all for short posts - I appreciate brevity! Long walls can be detrimental to a game. However, sometimes single emoticons for a response don't bring clarity the way a single sentence could.

[Thor665]

If she had indicated the time deadline reasoning only when making the modkill would that have solved your issue with it?

[Thor665]

'Time deadline' being 'this slot has been empty for X days while the other has been empty for X-6'

[Thor665]

16/3 is utterly town-sided and you think 18/4 is a good option? By that logic you should be behind the idea of the 14/3. In Mountainous the only factors that matter are number of days each side needs to achieve wincon and both of those have the same ratio of town needing one more day than scum (with 14/3 being the closest to the default 13/3 w. PRs mini setup) Then toss in that scum cannot be busted by PRs and that there are no PR clears, and come with an awareness that a 13/3 w. PR setup does not result in lopsided town advantage and I'm not sure why you think 16/3 is utterly town sided. I could see calling it as in favor of town, certainly, I would agree with that. But utterly and hugely? Nah.

[Thor665]

10/3 not 13/3 - mental typing gaff. Point holds.