New York 181 -- Game Over

[davesaz]

/confirm

[davesaz]

This seems a good idea
VOTE: elusive
can't quite figure it out though.

[davesaz]

Plain old fashioned or unfrosted crullers. I'm diabetic and can't have the sugary kind.
Would have been a different answer 20 years ago.

[davesaz]

I haven't played with Wake before. I did notice a post saying he changes style over time because he doesn't like being read. Not liking being read sounds odd to me, but probably more a personal preference thing.

Making note of who is making note of the change in Wake. SilverWolf, Garmr, Nikanor, House, and Egg, not in that order. I'd be really surprised if more than two of these are scum together. If Wake is town I might look in this list for scum, but it's entirely possible they're primarily town and the difference in Wake is indeed because he's scum.

[davesaz]

I usually fluff a lot but I'm not fluffing Today.

Is this your big play style change, or are we watching for something else as well?

[davesaz]

Answers to questions:

1. Don't really have a favorite, I enjoy all alignments.
2. Blue
3. No
4. I was going to answer owl or eagle, then noticed the mention of a spirit animal quiz. The quiz says owl, so gut feeling was correct.
5. Revealing my techniques could render them ineffective. Look for inconsistencies between words and actions, for one.
6. Most dangerous player is a tough one. I've only played with about half the player list.

[davesaz]

Wake, while you're at it, can you include a key to the color code?

[davesaz]

I don't mind Aneninen's attempt to post fewer walls. There has been a tendency in his past to post mostly walls and for coming across like a teacher. But the arbitrary limit will eventually be too constricting -- sooner or later we're going to want a reads list and that will be awkward.

I think trying to get alignment from the change is a big reach. It was announced in multiple places and before the game started.

Not a complaint but certain color combinations can be difficult to read on particular skins. I had to use mouse hilighting to see some of the yellows. I know it is not intentional and it is quite easy to deal with. But fair warning I could miss details.

[davesaz]

(davesaz)

———✹[/color]

Could we have more of your thoughts on the other players, please?

Soon. Some players have enough mass to work with but I need to go out for a few hours.

[davesaz]

God, the early parts of d1 are so boring. We've all got our facades up, making sure we're not the first to slip up.

Why do you fear slipping up? Does that really affect your early game?

[davesaz]

@wake house is a better player than to scumhunt in places that would boil down to semantic arguments so something's up

Flubber talking like he knows more about me than he does is making me paranoid.

Couple things ping me about this. First, aren't you assuming that Flubber's knowledge of you is limited? And not only that, but trying to get the rest of us to think that too? Second, isn't it a bit early to get paranoid, when someone has mentioned you just one time?

[davesaz]

So you've done absolutely nothing but cause distractions in your 27 posts

Is this at Elusive or SilverWolf? They both had 27 at that point in time.

[davesaz]

mkay elusive is 100% town. and anyone who tries to lynch her will be going though me.

How exactly did you come to this conclusion ?

she has played on another site with me, i know her meta and its not her scum meta

Not sure I want to trust this at face value. Without a reference this could just be scum covering for scum. It would be so obvious though...
Also it's so early to rule someone out on meta. People's meta might change across sites too, given the differences in trends on different sites.

[davesaz]

There's a few people in this game who have been utterly worthless. I always wonder if it's apathetic town or scum trying to breed apathy because I know if people do nothing or talk about how nothing is going on while doing nothing, it just naturally makes me not want to play.

I don't care about apathy.

Brought to you from the Department of Redundancy Department.

What do you care about in this game?

I care about interesting things.

You're interesting, Wolfie. Maybe not every post you make (who could possibly make every post interesting??), but you as a player are definitely interesting.

How do you define interesting?

[davesaz]

VOTE: house

not sold on nikanor scum yet

I'd like to go back to this. You vote House after he votes texcat, but your post mentions not being sold on nikanor being scum. The cognitive dissonance bothered me at the time, but I wanted to see what developed from it. I don't especially like the way House got all paranoid as a result, but your vote coming out of the blue bothers me just as much if not more.

1. What are your reads on nikanor and texcat?

2. What did House do that caused you to vote him?

[davesaz]

VOTE: house

not sold on nikanor scum yet

I'd like to go back to this. You vote House after he votes texcat, but your post mentions not being sold on nikanor being scum. The cognitive dissonance bothered me at the time, but I wanted to see what developed from it. I don't especially like the way House got all paranoid as a result, but your vote coming out of the blue bothers me just as much if not more.

1. What are your reads on nikanor and texcat?

2. What did House do that caused you to vote him?

Nikanor can be town for his observation on wake even though I disagree with it being scummy. From my experience wake's posts are just fluffy and I do admit to not always reading the longer ones

Texcat I have no clue.

House's reads are shallow. I don't see him analyzing intentions, just going after actions that in their current context that should be null.

@wake house is a better player than to scumhunt in places that would boil down to semantic arguments so something's up

House's reads are shallow. I don't see him analyzing intentions, just going after actions that in their current context that should be null.

This statement doesn't jibe with his previous one about me at all.

Two different examples of Flubber insinuating knowledge of my playstyle where the information in his posts are directly contradictory to the desired perception of his posts.

First off, he's attempting to enlighten Wake on my playstyle. Wake, of all people. The person that introduced me to mafiascum, and Flubber thinks he can tell him something that he doesn't already know about me... which is doubly bad considering he's dead wrong in what he's trying to pass off to Wake.

Then, he makes some bullshit accusation about my scumhunting when I haven't even had a chance to begin yet considering we're in day fucking one, trying to make it sound like I have ulterior motives when there's simply nothing to work with.

This isn't town pushing a scumspect. This is scum chasing a safe target that he knows won't be lynched but justifies keeping him off the mislynch wagon.

I like House's reply a lot better than Flubber's. Early d1, less than 400 posts, you'd expect almost any case to be shallow, the main exception being if there had been any fireworks to this point. Scum love to find a shallow case and paint it as scummy, because that gets seeds planted on a townie plus it bolsters their credentials.

[davesaz]

Dave - Interesting ISO. I see a decent amount of posts full of questions and statements. However, very little of it has anything to do with any reads Dave might have. It's all about playstyle changes, Elusive's questions, and looking for clarification on things. Dave also hasn't changed his vote since a wishy washy maybe this is scum type vote in post 49. A large I was in with Dave just ended (granted I died in October) and I was scum reading TownDave there, but a quick glance at his ISO in that game shows solid stances with use of the words "town" and "scum" even in the early game. Dave just entered my radar as possible scum.

That game went a lot faster and had a lot more content per post than this one. My vote is still RVS. But it is a correct observation that I haven't had a lot of concrete reads yet. A better comparison would be the 2nd Friends & Enemies game (see my wiki page).

[davesaz]

for anyone whos talking about elusive:

i know her from another site, her meta as town is litarly a textbook of ask question and tunnel who doesnt answer

she cant hold up the same charisma of posting as scum. if she has suddenly gotten 10 time better in like 2 month that i will be fucking amazed. but seriously if you try to lyncher im aggroing thread.

I'm reading this as scum ika WK'ing town elusive. In the absence of scum hunting from ika, it's enough to go on for now.

VOTE: ika

I'm also looking at Flubber for scum, per my previous post on him vs. House.

Town reading elusive, SilverWolf, House, Egg. Leaning town Aneninen, Shiro, Wake. Bunch of inactives to sort once they start posting. Some moderately active that I haven't gotten a vibe from and would leave as null for now. It's all pretty nebulous given the game state.

[davesaz]

Regarding ika:

• I find role fishing to be natural for all alignments, though misguided for town. This means it isn't necessarily alignment indicative, but it's still a bad idea and therefore anti-town.
  
• I'm more worried about the "town block", which in my mind has always represented a technique that scum use to get themselves thought of as conftown. I don't see town players using it here, where there is no out of thread communication. On some other site's I've played on, where outside comms were ok, it was useful to have a trusted set, but I don't see the benefit here and the downside is way too steep.
  
• The somewhat unfounded support for elusive still feels like it could come from scum knowing she's town. Allowing the support to erode is supposed to throw us off that scent.

[davesaz]

I don't usually look for scum teams at this point. Just looking at more than one candidate is sufficient and trying to link them just gets in the way of logic.
My other current scum read is Flubber. I kinda think one of the least active not-being-replaced players is likely to be scum.
That does not mean I'm going to rule out any of the players being replaced, just that I tend to look at the ones who stay first.

SK is a special case, need to let that cook a bit. I tend to think it will be someone most people are reading as town, if they're good at the role. If they're bad at the role, they'll look like scum without any reasonable connections.

[davesaz]

We need a couple good wagons, or at least noticeable pressure, to kick things loose.

[davesaz]

Dave, ika looking for power roles isn't as serious an issue as blatantly posting about it. I just don't even know how to react to that.

You're saying ika's posts saying he's looking for power roles is worse than the looking? I'd agree with that.
If that's not what you're saying, then what do you mean?

[davesaz]

Is anybody following nik vs. garmr right now because I really can't right now.

Nice "information" but do you draw any conclusions from it? If not, why mention it?

[davesaz]

That quote I posed at the beginning of this page is the single most scummy thing that has happened in this entire game so far. Freeko close second.

Do you have any comments on the other 200 posts since the last time you were here?

[davesaz]

@Egg, what do you think of my other two points on Ika?

[davesaz]

Is anybody following nik vs. garmr right now because I really can't right now.

Nice "information" but do you draw any conclusions from it? If not, why mention it?

To see if anyone can relate to the struggle I'm having with it and bring out my opinion that the format of the discussion is anti-town.

I skimmed a double ISO, did not stop to take notes. I find it odd that a high percentage of Garmr posts are either about Nik or replies to him. The percentage is lower for Nik posts about/to Garmr. It's also interesting that the context of a lot of the discussion is a 3rd party. I don't think it generated much in the way of solid reads, or advanced game state much. It puts both of them on the scum side of null.

What do you think about the motivation for the conversation? Setting aside the content which is difficult to follow, does one or both look scummy on motivation?

[davesaz]

I am still on V/LA until the 29th.

Umm, the next 29th would be in March, given it's not a leap year.

[davesaz]

davesaz

- You've been quiet recently. You have played with about half the player list you stated, what are your thoughts on how the people you do know are playing?

I posted today, did you miss it? I'm trying to sort Flubber vs House. Along with a lot of people I'm figuring out whether ika is bored townie trying to stir the pot vs. scum gambiting that he can flush roles without getting caught.

I'm watching ABR

very

closely.

Spoiler:

That's a joke about a game we were in recently.

[davesaz]

Where did I mention trying to figure out who the SK is? I did mention characteristics of SK, which are necessary to hunting one. And town should not rely on Mafia to do it -- hunting SK

is

something that town needs to do. It's just not any higher priority than finding scum in general.

How do you get under the radar? That's crazy talk.

[davesaz]

Well perhaps some people should stop looking bad if they want me to stop asking them questions that make them look bad.

There is a big difference between someone already looking bad and asking neutral questions to clarify that, vs. deliberately phrasing questions to make them look bad. Do you always do it this way as scum?

[davesaz]

And tso didnt look good complaining about nothing productive occurring while doing nothing.

And I have played a game with egg. He played differently than this. Turned out to be town. I asked for more information as any person concerned about an accurate read would.

Sections of post replied to separately for effect...

Do you think TSO looks scummy for doing that? If you do, why doesn't he appear in your scum list? And if you don't then why bring it up?

Can you say something a little more specific on how Egg is different from the previous game? Plus, you say Egg is different from the other game where he was town, but in your reads list you have him as ... town?

[davesaz]

1. The point about ratios of posts between me and nic is a point I never heard before. Is it something new your trialing? Just a heads up through I'm known to focus on one persons for extended peroids of time here I focus on FF till he was lynched I had even more post on him here than I did nik and latter on I focus pirate molly for days. 3rd party talk (I assume you mean fluff and not sk talk) is a give in, in any of my games town or scum.

How broad the group of players one interacts with can be one indicator of alignment. Too narrow a focus can indicate a lack of true scumhunting perspective, but this needs to be tempered by the individual's tendency to tunnel. It is typically not enough to determine alignment on its own. When a player has a broad interaction graph which leaves out one or two players, it can indicate distancing from teammates, though flips are needed to make it concrete. I don't think this is a new technique. "Average", if you can call it that, would be a graph which grows over the course of the game. A few unusually gregarious people may have a total interaction graph within a few pages, so it doesn't apply to everyone. Others (like me for example) are naturally quiet and you have to look beyond just who they interact with and into how.

[davesaz]

Quick reads list if you want me to emphasize any reads just hit me. (trying a new spoiler thing to make it easier to read thoughts on specif people with less distraction.

No offense, but the spoiler thing just makes it harder when there is so little information for each player. If you had a wall per, then it would make sense to spoiler it all. I should have made this same comment when the previous player (elusive?) did it, but it's a work day and it slipped my mind.

Speaking of there being so little... can you explain the reads in more detail. Especially the scum reads. I know that people rarely like repeating themselves but bear with me on this -- even the Nik read if you don't mind. I'm especially interested in seeing whether anything has evolved.

[davesaz]

I have no meta. Not knowing any players means that I have no preconceived notions that player X is a donkey, player Y just sucks, and player Z needs to be watched since I know they are good.

The long and short of it is that I want to make people be liable for something throughout the course of the game. That way when it comes down to it everyone has something that can be drawn upon and say this person is town or scum, because they did this.

I'll give this a thumbs up. While having meta from recent history with players

can

be useful, too often it is used as a crutch. And things can change in peoples' lives which result in radical differences in their style without being reliable for alignment. At best, a change in meta should be used as a sign you should look deeper at what the player is doing

in this game

. Because you can hide behind a meta change but you can't hide scum motivation (or more properly lack of town).

[davesaz]

Padding your postcount by replying to everything that happened hours ago?

[davesaz]

I am seeing flail here, and it's not SW.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

Pedit: I wrote this before SW's latest post but popped into preview to add the vote tag. SW's post had no bearing on my vote.

[davesaz]

As for Davesaz's 800-ish posts, eg. 815, 816, he's much more cautious than he was in two other games as town.

815 was an answer to a direct question? Any particular reason you're choosing this pair of posts?

[davesaz]

Well perhaps some people should stop looking bad if they want me to stop asking them questions that make them look bad.

There is a big difference between someone already looking bad and asking neutral questions to clarify that, vs. deliberately phrasing questions to make them look bad. Do you always do it this way as scum?

I ask questions regardless of alignment.

I don't think you quite got the point. I wasn't asking about whether you "ask questions" as scum.

Let's ask this another way. What's your town motivation behind phrasing questions in a way that the question makes the target look bad?

[davesaz]

Where did I mention trying to figure out who the SK is? I did mention characteristics of SK, which are necessary to hunting one. And town should not rely on Mafia to do it -- hunting SK

is

something that town needs to do. It's just not any higher priority than finding scum in general.

How do you get under the radar? That's crazy talk.

Post 592.

And you are under the radar because few are paying attention to you

The term under the radar means taking positions which are intended to avoid attention.
I agree that few are paying attention, but you're (at best) misinterpreting what is going on.
It's certainly not from lack of effort on my part...

And tso didnt look good complaining about nothing productive occurring while doing nothing.

And I have played a game with egg. He played differently than this. Turned out to be town. I asked for more information as any person concerned about an accurate read would.

Sections of post replied to separately for effect...

Do you think TSO looks scummy for doing that? If you do, why doesn't he appear in your scum list? And if you don't then why bring it up?

Can you say something a little more specific on how Egg is different from the previous game? Plus, you say Egg is different from the other game where he was town, but in your reads list you have him as ... town?

I was asked for the top three. Tso is suspicious but I haven't gotten a full read high enough yet.

And I bring it up to make points.

Does it bother you that I find you suspicious?

Egg already said that game was pretty bad for him. I'd have to go back and find the game for speciifics. Right now I find Him null. But he is playing much more town than he was that game.

Fair enough re: TSO and bringing up points.

No, it doesn't bother me.

I'm still seeing a logic error in what you're saying about Egg. He was town in the other game, and said the other game was bad for him. You find him null, but much more town than the other game. I guess that I could accept this as saying he was really scummy in the other game, but the way you're explaining it seems a bit forced. Almost like you want to find a reason to explicitly list Egg as null that doesn't sound like he should be town.

[davesaz]

I suggest we set our current scumreads on the more active players aside momentarily and poke some of the folks who seem to be kind of skating by on the bare minimum. I'd hate to tunnel in on not-really-slips by engaged townies and let the scum team quietly advance without committing anything to the game.

@ABR - Apart from past games (which have no direct impact on alignment this game), do you have any reason to be against Klingon or Dragon wagons? Things that happened in prior games aren't really strong reasons to decide anything in this game. If you have some thoughts contrary to the way some of us have read them (particularly Klingoncelt as far as I'm concerned), I'd love to read them.

@Shiro - You seem to be kind of dropping in very carefully. I remember your images more than your posts, and I suspect if not for the images, I wouldn't really remember much of any presence at all from you.

I'm thinking Drixx is most likely town. Need more content to firm it up though.

[davesaz]

Just checked everyone voting her. Everyone has presented/or sheeped reason to think she is scum sk/mafia why was this called a policy lynch?

What reason other than not seeing how town SW was is there? DId I miss anything?

Do you really agree there is enough stuff to make KC look like scum over other people?

Just checked everyone voting her. Everyone has presented/or sheeped reason to think she is scum sk/mafia why was this called a policy lynch?

What reason other than not seeing how town SW was is there? DId I miss anything?

Do you really agree there is enough stuff to make KC look like scum over other people?

Of course there is. Inciting unrest is scum as shit, and all this drama has scum motivation all over it.

How she become the center of attention while she could have dropped it and diffused the situation and suspicions.

You forger that you instigated this house

Say what you want but you did instigate this. SW was arguing with you first telling you to sto treating her like that then you backed off and Kc prolonged it.

How exactly am I misrepresenting anything?

In anycase tell me then what are the reasons she is scum other than the drama caused? Because honestly that isn't much of a reason.

So, defending Klingoncelt. I do agree that it is worthwhile to ask what makes her scum other than the drama. I'd need to review, and expect some others would need to as well.

Do you have any scum reads? I'm noticing a very definite lack of strong opinions.

[davesaz]

@elusive: why try to vote freeko (vote failed btw) just because there is a possibility of joining the KC bandwagon? Freeko is currently voting ABR and only talked about maybe switching.

[davesaz]

Scum/Leaning Scum -
Garmr
Egg
freeko

Any thoughts to go with the reads?

[davesaz]

I'm getting that too, a sense of not much fire in Egg.

[davesaz]

V/LA request for a day or so. In the E.R. Observation area pending a stress test.

Hope you're fine!

[davesaz]

Nikanor voted me for not having reads. Obviously hasn't been reading and/or didn't go back to check...
Underlines added for emphasis.

for anyone whos talking about elusive:

i know her from another site, her meta as town is litarly a textbook of ask question and tunnel who doesnt answer

she cant hold up the same charisma of posting as scum. if she has suddenly gotten 10 time better in like 2 month that i will be fucking amazed. but seriously if you try to lyncher im aggroing thread.

I'm reading this as scum ika

WK'ing town elusive. In the absence of scum hunting from ika, it's enough to go on for now.

VOTE: ika

I'm also looking at Flubber for scum

, per my previous post on him vs. House.

Town reading elusive, SilverWolf, House, Egg. Leaning town Aneninen, Shiro, Wake. Bunch of inactives to sort once they start posting. Some moderately active that I haven't gotten a vibe from and would leave as null for now. It's all pretty nebulous given the game state.

davesaz

- You've been quiet recently. You have played with about half the player list you stated, what are your thoughts on how the people you do know are playing?

I posted today, did you miss it? I'm trying to sort Flubber vs House. Along with a lot of people I'm figuring out whether ika is bored townie trying to stir the pot vs. scum gambiting that he can flush roles without getting caught.

I'm watching ABR

very

closely.

Spoiler:

That's a joke about a game we were in recently.

Well perhaps some people should stop looking bad if they want me to stop asking them questions that make them look bad.

There is a big difference between someone already looking bad and asking neutral questions to clarify that, vs. deliberately phrasing questions to make them look bad. Do you always do it this way as scum?

I ask questions regardless of alignment.

I don't think you quite got the point. I wasn't asking about whether you "ask questions" as scum.

Let's ask this another way.

What's your town motivation

behind phrasing questions in a way that the question makes the target look bad?

Let's see, I've had scum reads on ika, Flubber, KlingonCelt, weak scum on ABR (yeah, I just said I was keeping an eye on him, that's davespeak for weak scum), and weak scum on dragonspawn (when I ask someone their town motivation it implies I think they have a scum motivation, another case of davespeak).

Are these good reads? Only time will tell. But you're not going to get away with painting them as being

no

reads.

[davesaz]

You also neglected to respond to the bigger point I made against you, which is awesome, adding the buzzword StRaWmAn should really help in the case against you.

Was there a bigger point? I don't see one.

[davesaz]

Ah, you're confusing a to do list item (which I thought isn't especially urgent right now given the lack of wagon movement) with "coasting". It is quite reasonable to point out something that isn't done yet, but a complete fallacy to assign a motive in this way.

It does make me wonder, what's the urgency on finding someone on the KC wagon to discredit? Do you have an ulterior motive for doing that? This will be good info for town, in later days. It would also be good to see if there are any players who are adamant that KC isn't SK. That's one kind of slip scumbuddies might make.

Yeah, that's another todo item. I tend to accumulate those. When I survive, I usually hang scum with them.

[davesaz]

It does make me wonder, what's the urgency on finding someone on the KC wagon to discredit? Do you have an ulterior motive for doing that? 

wowowowowowow
and when you say it's not urgent given the lack of wagon movement, that's post-facto justification, at the time you said you wanted to look at klingon there had been 4 votes on her within a day and she was more than halfway to lynch. so i'm gonna call bullshit on that excuse.

What excuse are you talking about? You appear to have failed to notice that I'm attacking you -- maybe it was a touch too subtle. I moved on from acknowledging my actions and into questioning yours. Why are you looking for someone on the KC wagon to discredit? That looks pretty scummy to me, given there hasn't been significant movement on that wagon in a day or so. I'm asking myself if you're a plausible choice to be one of KC's scumbuddies. You wouldn't want to defend her directly in that situation. And you'd want to peel people off the wagon during a time of relative calm.

In separate news, I'm not liking the lack of explanation for Garmr votes, in particular Flubber and ABR. The wagon itself is probably a good thing (town needs information and wagons are thus good in general), but the way people are handling it is not. If they're town and not giving reasons, we lack the information to distinguish them from the scum.

I'd like to think that ika's antics are an attempt by town to throw smoke over the PRs, but it worries me that it could be scum on a fishing expedition. Being so blatant about it is no defense with me, I've seen (and caught) a fairly good number of "too scummy to be scum" acts.

[davesaz]

you people are insane.

Which people are you referring to here?

[davesaz]

@dave what do you think of garmr's reaction to the wagon?

TBH, not quite sure what to think. Don't know if I've ever seen someone invite a wagon up front like that.
What do you think about his reaction?

And while I'm replying to you, why ask TSO what he thought about my handling of Nik, without giving your own opinion? I don't recall you being bashful in the past.

[davesaz]

And apparently you're volunteering to do the deed?

[davesaz]

I'll dig back into this game in the morning.

[davesaz]

Lots of discussion about the possibility of opportunistic votes on the KC wagon, and I agree that it makes sense to investigate that.

There is another kind of opportunism available with this kind of wagon. Scum need townies who look scummy, to push valid-looking cases against. The KC wagon provides some easy targets. It's important to distinguish good cases against opportunistic voters vs. opportunistic cases against borderline voters.

[davesaz]

I think Mafia would become far more engaging if we stopped using the word 'Scummy' as a net for anything we don't feel comfortable with, and instead used our own vocabularies to better articulate what exactly it is we are feeling about one another.

Who's your biggest scum read, and why?

[davesaz]

If it makes you feel better, I'll answer your question by saying that I'm not trying to discredit anyone; as I've already said, I think that klingon is town and that the wagon is full of people with trash reasons for voting her.

OK, so moving on...

I thought there were legitimate reasons to think KC had been posting things that slipped she was SK. Those same posts can be interpreted another way, as being merely background info on which role is fun and how she plays it. A difference of opinion on this doesn't bear on our relative alignments.

As I said before, I believe it is likely that there are two kinds of opportunistic manipulation in that wagon. There are probably at least some people on the wagon whose votes are not sincere. You share this belief. I also think that some of the people probing at the wagon could be using it as an opportunity to paint honest townies (who really do/did think KC is scum) as scummy for being on the "bad" wagon. I pressed you on this aspect and you seem to be giving an honest response.

I think we should continue to look at people's motives for being on the wagon, and motives for questioning the ones on the wagon.

Also, for the record I don't see much value in being on a wagon for a slot which is being replaced. There will be plenty of opportunity to vote for the replacement if the slot read remains the same.
UNVOTE:

[davesaz]

I don't think it's very unusual to have multiple reasons, do you?

[davesaz]

@Dave
You seemed to have forgotten about me didn't you want to ask about certain town reads and why I think they were town.

My primary focus was the scum reads, which you did post but it was nearly drowned out by other activity at the time.

[davesaz]

I voted davesaz because I think he needs pressure and also to get people talking about other things but that didn't quite work.

Nah, not really. I do have a bit of a weakness in the area of tending more toward responding to "interrupts" vs. generating discussion on my own.

Does Dragonspawn even have a V\LA or has it just been AWOL?

I think a specific absence was forecast, but it wasn't formalized as a V/LA.

The role of a VT is to interrogate and aggravate as much as possible so that the scum are pissed enough to take you out rather then a PR. VTs who don't play that way are wasting the freedom that not having an ability gives them in that they can purely scumhunt without fear.

Good point.

[davesaz]

Yeah, a lot of that reads list surprised me, especially on the town side. Drix and Wake stand out the most.

Why does Drix stand out?

[davesaz]

I could do an Anen lynch.

Several of his reads feel very convenient and poorly explained. Not to mention the whole, "Look how town I am for catching ika's hints" b/s, which town shouldn't want called out because it just informs the scum if they happened to have missed/misunderstood it.

His 3 probscum reads are all low hanging fruit that have a history of being lynched D1 as town.

Do you primarily agree or disagree with Anen's reads? If it's a mixture, which ones do you disagree with?

[davesaz]

Yeah, a lot of that reads list surprised me, especially on the town side. Drix and Wake stand out the most.

Drix stands out more as a whiteknighting read (assuming Anen scum). I'd be more likely to believe Wake was his partner of the two, if it came to that, because scum tends to leantown or nulltown their buddies to allow them to bus easier later.

OK, since you've both responded to my query about why Anen's Drix read bothers you.

I totally understand, and agree, that Anen doesn't explain why Drix is a town read. My questions were to determine if the lack of explanation is your primary reason for questioning the read, or if you also disagree with the read. I happen to have Drix as strong town, and would be happy to explain that separately as needed (see below). I also don't see anyone reading Drix as scum. How can Anen be WKing if Drix isn't under any pressure? Agreed it's an unexplained read. Am I just using too strict a definition of WK?

Note on explaining town reads: At times it is beneficial to take a soft stance on explaining town reads. I don't think I'd refuse to explain one if asked, but too much explaining of town reads can tell scum what you're looking for and let them change their behavior. By all means, if you think it needs to be explained, do ask. Thanks.

[davesaz]

Aneninen, for the record my questions to others, about their comments on your reads, are for the purpose of reading them. It wouldn't serve my purposes to involve you in the question.

[davesaz]

...
What you posted RE: Aneninen looked a lot like you wanted to see how he would respond, at least to me. And for the record, I'm not trying to defend Aneninen or his play; I've seen some things that read as town motivated and some things that don't out of him. I am not really commenting on him at all, other than to say that you seem to be trying to play it both ways and I'm not sure that's a great approach.

If you are gonna scum read the guy whether he responds or not, that's not really scumhunting.

If you actually are trying to get reads on other people, it should probably be a little more clear than it was, because I didn't see that...

And that's a certain type of

Playing the Regardless of Card

, which is a strong scumread in my eyes especially when it's happening on Day1.

Your reply is to a post by Drixx which was a reply to me. But you're not making it clear at all in your post who you think is pulling this "regardless of" thing. You have used this term before (in another completed game), and I don't remember getting a reply when I asked for a precise definition of what you mean. Rather than put words in your mouth, exactly what do you mean?

Do you even know what my read of you is? I don't remember giving one...

[davesaz]

Actually, I did.

[davesaz]

An analogy would be a reaction test. If the target knows they're being reaction tested, the test itself becomes useless.

[davesaz]

If I say I have a reason, I have a reason. I extend others the courtesy of accepting their statement that they have a reason. I do this regardless of who it is or what the circumstances are.
There are some obvious exceptions, like if I have a strong scum on someone already.

I tend to scum read people who ignore other's requests to shut the hell up.

[davesaz]

On that, we agree.

[davesaz]

TSO, have I missed your reads somewhere? Having an awful time finding them.

[davesaz]

I am glad to be home again.

Welcome back! What's your outlook for some reads?

[davesaz]

Can I ask why people think flubber is town and why there isn't more pressure on this slot?

I do not think anyone town reads him. It most likely a null.

@Flubber what is up with you being so nulll and hidden. I had th exact same read on you in masquarade to the point I forgot you were in the game at one point. You were scum there. I dun like this. It feels exactly the same

This type of thinking gives me hope your slot might be town. Are there any other players who are giving you similar feelings?

[davesaz]

DeltaWave – Null

. Previously scumread by me, but the more I'm thinking about it, the more likely I find that these posts are coming from an annoying townie or from someone who simply wants to "skip" Day1.

A little from Column A, a little from Column B

Came across this, I must have missed it the first time around.

So this is a claim to be an annoying townie, which I suppose isn't too far fetched. It's even funny in some ways.

But the column B part is cause for concern. Do you think it's OK for people to "skip day 1"? Not talking about "wanting" to skip, but actually doing it when they're not V/LA. What events might prompt you to be more active? Do you see others trying to skate by, or at least looking like they're trying to?

[davesaz]

Well, you did imply in 1365 that someone was doing things that would trigger you to FoS them. That's going to get attention, don't you think?

[davesaz]

Looking at that interaction between freeko and House, I think freeko's reaction is pretty scummy.
VOTE: freeko

[davesaz]

People who rely on VCA as a strong tool for finding scum tend to jump to conclusions Garmr. I have no idea why people insist on applying a large scale probabilistic observation to individual cases. The context and timing of events is much more useful for finding scum than VCA, especially if the scum know about VCA and feed in results that are indistinguishable from random.

If you have limited time, VCA can be extremely useful in giving you fewer people to look at.

Later in the game it can point directly at scum like a guided missile. I've lost track of the number of scum I've nailed specifically from VCA. Especially the ones who look town otherwise.

But I do agree that there are times and places where it is next to useless, if not actively harmful.

[davesaz]

I read his first post that way.

[davesaz]

Welcome, please do.

[davesaz]

I saw ABR as town in GOTG II, and he was one of my biggest scum reads. But I have not compared side by side with this game. I get the feel that he's naturally scummy. This might be strategic, so that when he is scum it's viewed as normal. I don't have a good feel on his alignment.

I've been seeing stuff from Wake that makes me think town. An explanation of why I think that would be very anti-town, don't even ask.

I'm undecided on Ika. There are 3 cases, two of which is town. (1) the cop claim is real and he's counting on the doc to believe him and not get killed (2) he's trying to draw the kill to shield the real cop (3) he's scum faking it. Early game we're probably best off leaving it alone, but I do wish he'd lay off the bored kick and make a better effort at scum hunting.

Shiro was very uninspiring before, but the last 2 posts are looking better.

LA today (mostly afternoon and evening) for my daughter's birthday.

[davesaz]

@All -- where exactly are Ika's claim(s)?

@davesaz -- Why are you assuming there is a doctor in the setup?

It's an open setup. See post 2.

[davesaz]

Of the people I know the best, Flubbernugget is the furthest away from what I've seen of him as town. This is a better use for my vote at present.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Pedit: Ika, that's quite the dichotomy.

[davesaz]

elusive, whats your read on house?

is he a scummy scum butt or magical healing town?

Pedit: Ika, that's quite the dichotomy.

???

There is a gigantic gulf between "scummy scum butt" and "magical healing town". By asking your question the way you do, you try to force Elusive, and perhaps others, to accept this as an either/or. False dichotomy.

[davesaz]

Wake is incredibly town for the time being. Repeating what I said earlier, no I'm not going to say why because it would be incredibly anti-town to explain.
Even if I'm wrong and wake is scum, there are 4 scum and there is no urgency to lynch one of them over the others. Pick someone else, just in case I'm right.