NY 183 - Apocalypse Mafia

[PointYBagelS]

Asking for townreads = scum

VOTE: Jbomber721

[PointYBagelS]

Your evil twin, obviously. He's clearly evil, and thus scum.

[PointYBagelS]

Personally I don't really have an issue with 11. It's not unreasonable to assume that there's a third party in a large game. I'd say it's near certain, actually.

I will agree 15 seems a bit off, but it isn't too unheard of to claim a townread on someone in RVS. It generates discussion, at least. I'll reserve further judgement for when more posts have been made.

RQS Answers.

1. I haven't played a whole lot of mafia here, but I once won an in-person game as mafia even though my only teammate was lynched day 1. That was pretty fun.
2. What do you mean by this? Do you mean favorite role to play as?
3. Winter for sure.
4. That very much depends on the type of apocalypse. I'd say for the most part though, you can't go wrong with going underground until things calm down, then seeing what's left of civilization/the environment and going from there.

[PointYBagelS]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rubicon

[PointYBagelS]

Rubicon you want to explain why you claimed on page 2?

[PointYBagelS]

I don't rolehunt.

Why do you feel the need to mention this? Creative didn't ask you if you were rolehunting, just how many power roles you'd generally expect to see in a large normal. This seems like an especially defensive answer to a relatively harmless question.

[PointYBagelS]

Blowing currently irrelevant things out of proportion isn't discussion inducing more than it is misdirection. Conjuring up arguments out of nowhere isn't going to further our town's interests.

Ehh, it's still very early. Basically everything is out of (mostly) nowhere at this point. I thought that response was a bit odd so I called it out.

Kitz, you haven't weighed in yet. What are your thoughts on the game so far?

[PointYBagelS]

Hmm. I don't really like this boonskies wagon, but it doesn't strike me as scum driven. I'm getting a townread on Nero, and I mostly think he's leading the charge because he wants to see the behavior of the people who jump on the wagon, rather than put pressure on boonskies.

I don't know what to think of grib. One second I think he's town, the next scum. My gut says this means he's probably town, but my read is tentative.

However, I do have a minor scumread on davesaz. In 120, He took his vote off of grib, who early on looked like he might be the first wagon (and still looks like he might be the second), and changed it to jump on the boonskies wagon. If grib is scum, this looks like an attempt to take his vote off of a scumbuddy without arousing too much suspicion. If grib is town, he's just sheeping from one early wagon to another. Either way, he seems to be playing a very reactive game.

I am aware that davesaz was the first to vote grib and so I can't really use that logic for why he voted in the first place, but it is interesting to me that when he did change, it was in this manner.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: davesaz

[PointYBagelS]

BagelS votehopping again... 156 appears to be written in a town mindset, but I'm not a fan of its content for the most part. As it happens I'm townreading Dave for exactly the same reasons as you're scumreading him - I highly doubt scum would be ballsy enough to pull a 'bus and make up' stunt before nearly everyone had posted.

My biggest issue with davesaz is that he has sheeped onto a wagon having not posted any real opinions of his own yet. I admitted in 156 that the grib link is weak since it was an rvs vote, but it is definitely worth considering, if only a little.

[PointYBagelS]

Kitz may actually be my first scumread for her coasty fluffposting. RVS is long over.

I actually might be interested in seeing a kitz wagon, but I'm content to stay where I am for now. At least until davesaz gives us the post he promised in 173.

[PointYBagelS]

I've skimmed a few of grib's past town games and he definitely seems to be playing this one differently than he's been playing those. However, I'm not sure if this is because he's scum or because this game is larger than those. I'm also hesitant to make a meta-read based on games I wasn't in. That said, if anyone happens to have to have the link to a scum game of grib's I'd be interested in taking a look.

Also, I'd just like to point out that skold is the only person in this game who has yet to post.

[PointYBagelS]

I wanted to jump on one of these wagons but davesaz continues to be wholly unconvincing. He has not posted anything he wasn't asked for. This comes off as scum pseudo-lurking to allow the town to continue their line of thought. I just can't see any motivation to do that as town, but it seems scummy regardless of grib's/kitz's alignment.

Ricastle suggesting that grib is sk bothers me. SK hunting is a terrible idea before any flips and he should know that.

As for the proto- town bloc, I'm willing to give it a chance for today because if there are at least 2 town on it, I would expect scum to be found within in short order, and I can't imagine multiple scum being so ballsy as to declare a townbloc like that.

Skold continues to be conspiculosly absent, and bewilderbeast, megalo, klingon, and boon have posted what essentially amounts to nothing. If we let people get away with lurking, scum can sit back and watch town lynch each other.

[PointYBagelS]

I wanted to jump on one of these wagons but davesaz continues to be wholly unconvincing. He has not posted anything he wasn't asked for. This comes off as scum pseudo-lurking to allow the town to continue their line of thought. I just can't see any motivation to do that as town, but it seems scummy regardless of grib's/kitz's alignment.

The observation (I haven't posted much) is accurate, but your conclusion is incorrect. There is a natural pattern to my activity driven by work schedules, and this is the low activity end of the cycle. I also tend to listen more than talk when faced with a large number of unknown people. But this is self meta and I won't blame you if you require that actual activity to see the town in me. The fact that you're questioning it is one of the things that makes you come across as genuine to me.

Actually, you've posted about as much as I have, in terms of raw numbers. My issue is that your posts seem largely devoid of content. If you have outside factors going on I understand, but for now I'm content to leave my vote where it is.

[PointYBagelS]

And WTF is a town bloc/town block/ town circle? This is starting to get to me.

I'm not entirely sure myself, but the impression I'm getting is that the proposed "town bloc" (consisting of grib, elusive, and rubicon) know each other well enough to easily spot scum among them and presently are all townreading each other. It's not great reasoning, but for now/day 1 I'm willing to give it a chance, for reasons I've outlined in 318.

[PointYBagelS]

Jbomber seems to be digging himself a deeper and deeper hole. Not a fan of the way he's responding to only minor pressure. However it will take some more reading to determine whether opportunist scum are trying to get an easy lynch or if jbomber is actually scum.

Anyway, I know it's going to be a bit of a flip flop since I said I was content with my vote on literally this page, but that was before I read most of page 14 in any level of detail. I've now read page 14 a few times and since no one else is really putting much pressure on dave, I feel there's little to be gained from continuing on the front. I'm still suspicious of him but I'll put my vote elsewhere for now.

I feel a wagon here might turn up something interesting.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Skold

[PointYBagelS]

Did I not explain? Huh. I had an unplanned holiday (parents told me to pack my bags cause we had to leave soon). I'm lurking cause I don't have much to add. If I see something that either pertains directly to me or something I deem relevant I'll add my two cents.

Who is Jbomber referring to in the thing you're replying to? And Nero still needs to explain his go at Boon. Also @The Messiah instead of explaining you read, you've spent recent posts defending yourself and looking at other scum suspects. The second I expect the first I don't. Get on that. And by given indications that I may go back to lurking...I said I was tired and later that I wasn't feeling well. If I was truly looking for an excuse to lurk 1. I wouldn't be so retarded as to pick a reason I can't post that only lasts 8ish hours. 2. I wouldn't be posting. In other words, u fokin wot fam?

pedit: Creative would you please instead of declaring your read for the world (or at least this thread) to see, explain it? I don't see a me + Jbomb team working. For someone who has only posted for one IRL day a bus seems fucking retarded atm. But do as you like. I'm going to need help, what does 3P mean? I can't comment on that until I know.

You're trying really hard to defend your lurking here but that's not actually the reason I find you scummy.

[PointYBagelS]

Skold I don't know if it's just your writing style, but I'm having a lot of trouble making sense of anything you post.

However I'm curious why you respond to 424 in such an adversarial way (for example using the word concede instead of agree). This seems like a very odd way to reply to someone who asked about a post that doesn't really apply directly to you, and who isn't even voting for you.

pedit: Skold, you were trying hard to defend your lurking in 409 You literally gave 3 different excuses. Denying it gets you nowhere.

[PointYBagelS]

You continue to be defensive of your lurking (or at least saying you won't defend it). However, you're not even lurking. Are you overestimating your own scumminess because you're scum, perhaps?

Also this

Hmmm. Votes are too divided. It's too easy for scum to hide under these conditions.

Unvote:

VOTE: Boon
Less lurk more content m9.

Not only did you seem to disagree with this wagon early on, In your first, you voted Nero for perpetuating it. Why did you, of the 3 possible wagons, wind up jumping on this one?

[PointYBagelS]

Well, that Ricastle / Grib / Skold triangle is turning out to be interesting. Note to self, continue to follow this.

What do you mean triangle? Are they the players you find scummiest? If there's multiple scum in that group they're hella bussing each other.

[PointYBagelS]

After a meta read, skold is much more defensive than his past games where he's played town. I'll be completely ok if this wagon leads to a lynch.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=60922
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=60734

[PointYBagelS]

A few thoughts:

1: I'm still nullreading Ricastle. He's posted a lot but I'm just not fully convinced that he's town

2: Are we completely forgetting about jbomber? Skold was the only one to vote for him but I feel like his shady sounding responses in 363 and 366 can't be ignored.

3: I realize grib has a lot of votes but I just don't think he's scum. I feel like scum would try to be less visible/controversial on the first day, and grib seems to be taking up a lot of attention that I don't think scum would want.

4: I sill think dave is a bit scummy, but there are others who are more so.

5: I'd like to see more posts from kitz. She's posted very little of substance so far, and that worries me.

6: Elusive scum is something I hadn't considered but it may be a possibility, I'll have to look over the game some more.

[PointYBagelS]

2: Are we completely forgetting about jbomber? Skold was the only one to vote for him but I feel like his shady sounding responses in 363 and 366 can't be ignored.

I'm already scumreading him off that. What were you thinking of doing about him?

Well a wagon at some point obviously. But the votes are spread thin enough as is. I'm not looking to contribute to that problem.

[PointYBagelS]

Kitz, will you do something moderately towny if I ask nicely?

5: I'd like to see more posts from kitz. She's posted very little of substance so far, and that worries me.

And what would be "Moderately Towny"?
Everyone's doing wall texts of eachothers because of

Meta

, and I just cannot argue with Meta.
Meta sucks, I don't interpret that thing and I don't understand it. Thus I am silent for now.

What confuse me the most is the "town block" thingie, like, why is it even a thing this early? I also don't know the player's playstyle, yet.

That's the usual bad quirk about a Day 1. It'll improve as things happen and the game has progressed, I'll see more past the bias of meta.

Why not give us some of your reads based on non-meta reasons then?

[PointYBagelS]

I'll hop on this wagon. Hopefully it turns up something good.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jbomber732

[PointYBagelS]

Kitz you have not voted at all. Why?

[PointYBagelS]

Unvote:

VOTE: Jbomber
I only hopped off this wagon to increase pressure. I prefer this one.

You may have actually convinced me you're town here.

[PointYBagelS]

vote:Jbomber

a vote count would help here...

Assuming I didn't discount. Jbomber's slot is at L-3.

[PointYBagelS]

miscount*

[PointYBagelS]

@note to self I don't know what to make of a jbomber wagon.

Why do you think jbomber is getting wagoned? Do you think this is valid reasoning? If not, Why did you say "I don't know what to make of a jbomber wagon."?

Looking back J bomber is afk. I think he is being wagoned for being afk as no real case was even presented. Why he was picked out for being afk over other people puzzles me but his response by replacing out was also quite bad. No one really has valid reason to jump on it so I could see at least one person jumping on him to bus if he is scum.

The fact that he was AFK wasn't the really incriminating thing though. It was the fact that he admitted to withholding a vote because it might make him look suspicious, then said he bases his game on honesty. Sure he told the truth about withholding a vote but the fact that he did it at all shows a level of over-carefulness that doesn't suggest town. The fact that he went afk (and then replaced out) as soon as suspicion built up is just icing on the cake. Certainly it's a major factor in why he's being voted now, but it's not the original reason he was singled out.

[PointYBagelS]

ok

formulating a opinion after being questioned on it

What made you lean scum on him?

The way he replaced and how the wagon suddenly appeared after me pushing elusive for a long time. I feel scum might have day talk.

Setup speculation gets us nowhere. And to be honest it makes you look scummy.

It's pretty clear that most of the wagon was already suspicious of jbomber. And multiple people on the previous page discussed the possibility of doing it before it happened. The fact that there was no primary wagon before that just made it easier for everyone to switch.

[PointYBagelS]

Damn... I feel really sorry for whoever has to replace into jbomber's slot...

What's everyone's opinion on not hammering until he gets a replacement who can, if nothing else, claim?

[PointYBagelS]

If Jbomber gets lynched and flips scum I'm going to be very suspicious of Garmr.

[PointYBagelS]

sigh

. He had no reason to claim

[PointYBagelS]

@Elusive: it is strategically sound for VT to prefer their own lynch/NK to a PR's, but psychologically some people prefer/need to try to survive whether it's the right strategic move or not.

@Nero: the immediate past should be part of meta, but don't let it dominate too much

It is never strategically sound for a VT to prefer their own lynch to anyone's but an innocent child/ironclad confirmed PR (neither of which will ever be lynched anyway). Allowing yourself to get lynched as VT means lynching confirmed town (in your perspective). It is always better to lynch someone else (who isn't confirmed town) than it is to get lynched. The idea of not claiming VT is to bait nightkills,

not

lynches. If you're at L-1 and someone asks for a claim, you should do it to prevent the lynch. It is pretty much

never

a strategic move to allow yourself to get lynched as VT.

That being said, if we're going to talk general strategy instead of scumhunt we might as well lynch now. If we're not actively scumhunting/townhunting, we gain nothing by extending the day. (so town points to ricastle for doing just that)

To that end, I'll try to come out with a reads list later, to facilitate some more discussion.

[PointYBagelS]

At this rate, megalo will probably be replaced too.

[PointYBagelS]

I'd like to hear from Skold a paraphrase of why the jbomber wagon was started in the first place.

Because he hasn't done anything useful, sheeped me and hasn't posted much since then. Why me though?
pedit: Sheeping and doing nothing useful is enough for a wagon. I don't know about a lynch though and we still have plenty time to decide.

There's plenty of sheep on the jbomber wagon as well. What's different about them?

As usual, the wrong part of my post gets focused on. Maybe I'm just including too much. The real point of the comment is that we can't read the slot based solely on the claim / replace out. To reiterate:

Psychologically some people prefer/need to try to survive whether it's the right strategic move or not.

We should act like the claim didn't happen.

That being said, if we're going to talk general strategy instead of scumhunt we might as well lynch now. If we're not actively scumhunting/townhunting, we gain nothing by extending the day. (so town points to ricastle for doing just that)

You could try not replying, if you'd prefer to stay away from strategy. I'm going to refrain from extending the discussion on true VT claims, even though it approaches being physically painful to leave a fallacy unchallenged.

I find it disturbing that your suggestion is to not reply. I'm just mentioning that I think the discussion should go elsewhere. By not replying I worry that the discussion will continue along useless lines, which can only help scum.

[PointYBagelS]

I'd like to hear from Skold a paraphrase of why the jbomber wagon was started in the first place.

PointYBagels and Rubicon are up next.

Jbomber's wagon was started by the fact that he did something rather scummy (Admitted to not voting nero so he wouldn't attract attention, then talked about how he is playing a very honest game). Essentially he was playing like a sheep. Not doing anything on his own unless the town indicated it wouldn't be "against the grain". This combined with the lurking made just about everyone scumread (or at least not townread him).

Surely you can read the thread to see how the wagon was started? Do you think this wagon was scum-driven?

[PointYBagelS]

What about rubicon and creative? I don't think they should he ignored because they jumped off, especially since neither of those is intended to be permanent.

[PointYBagelS]

This game is getting depressing. At least with boon, I doubt he'll actually need to be replaced.

@Mod:

will there be a deadline extension if replacements are not found in time?

[PointYBagelS]

Well then!

Now the game can hopefully pick back up! Sorry about the situation you're in Vampirate

[PointYBagelS]

As for JBomber732, the only real defense I have against everyone voting me now is that the JBomb is an easy lynch target. He stands out way too much in his questionable logic. I'd think he'd be more careful on his words if he's scum. (of course i'm the only one who knows for the very truth so whatever) I'm basically saying i'm the easy mislynch.


I gotta say though, I find my current predicament totally hilarious. If you want go read my past history (there's not much) go ahead.

I actually really like this post. I still think you're scum, but you might be able to convince me you're not. I can definitely see the possibility of scum taking advantage of the excessive honesty (not the sheeping though, that's just scummy). The replacing out will be harder to justify but he was lurking already so it is possibly for outside reasons.

That being said, if you're town I think scum is just sitting back and letting it happen. This wagon doesn't seem that scummy. It was a pressure wagon that got turned into a serious one by the replacement.

If you've read the thread already, who do you find the towniest and scummiest right now?

[PointYBagelS]

Someone get me caught the fuck up because 30 pages will take a long time for me

Half of it is filler.

Including just about everything you've posted.

[PointYBagelS]

Wow, I did not expect to find 2 pages of new posts when I woke up.

And why exactly are you townreading Vamp?

There's more than one reason to have a survivalist mindset. I don't think JBomb would have been so open about such a shady thought process as scum, which suggests the alternative to be true.

I'll agree that vamp seems town but you didn't address the main issue. Sure JBomber had a survivalist mindset, but the way he did it (by not voting an unpopular vote) meant that he was content to "not rock the boat" which is far scummier than simple survivalism. If he was town, he would presumably be far more willing to do scumhunting and generate discussion. It almost looks like he was intentionally avoiding that, though.

[PointYBagelS]

Not sure I agree with a Skold wagon. Playing poorly is not the same as playing scummily.

[PointYBagelS]

Skold is one of my stronger townreads right now...

[PointYBagelS]

@pb, why? Also, top scum-reads?

Most of Skold's questionable actions seem more like poor play than scummy play, as I've said in earlier posts. Working on this assumption, I think if Skold was scum it would be more obvious. Even if he arrives at odd conclusions, Skold's motivations seem to be much more based on the intent to scumhunt than the intent to misdirect.

As for scumreads, my vote is currently on Vampirate so I obviously find him (or rather his slot) scummy.

I also don't like the way that House seems to be trying to take control of the game, but I get the impression he does that in every game anyway. Still, I don't like the way he just dismissed the Vampriate wagon without really giving a reason other than "I think he's town so he's town".

I don't like the way Kitz is playing but again I get the impression she does that in every game. Day 1 may be not that useful in and of itself, but not contributing to it makes it impossible, later in the game, to read past actions based on new information. I'll be watching her because even if it is her general meta, it is a good way to conceal information.

I'm still relatively null on Klingon and Errant but I think there's a chance one or both of them are scum as well.

[PointYBagelS]

Most of Skold's questionable actions seem more like poor play than scummy play, as I've said in earlier posts. Working on this assumption, I think if Skold was scum it would be more obvious. Even if he arrives at odd conclusions, Skold's motivations seem to be much more based on the intent to scumhunt than the intent to misdirect.

Your chain of thought is logical. However, it only applies under the assumption that Skold is a generally bad player. I find it more likely that he's playing badly because he's scum.

His actions to me seem like he has no intentions other than to fan flames and get as many people under suspicion as possible. He's just attacking people for the sake of attacking and I don't know if he's actually gained anything from it himself. Considering he still apparently has no idea who's scum (865) it makes out more like he's pretending to scumhunt rather than actually doing so.

Still, I don't like the way he just dismissed the Vampriate wagon without really giving a reason other than "I think he's town so he's town".

jbomber's RQS answers did it for me (specifically #2). I highly doubt he'd try anything manipulative as scum in a post nobody will even read or take in. And I also doubt someone who'd concoct a scheme like that would cave in and give up if they got wagoned.

Speaking of that, it's possible that jbomber didn't ask to be replaced at all - the OP stated that if a player did not respond adequately to a prod, they would be replaced. jbomber may have effectively shrugged at the prod, having not bothered to keep up with the game, and be replaced that way.

[PointYBagelS]

So my post got submitted early... You have a legitimate point with skold. I don't agree but I understand. I'll look over his iso again though. As for Jbomber's RGQS,answers, people are reading way too much into them He could still be scum without attempting to play anyone with them. I'll admit it makes the replace a null tell, but it doesn't make him town and it doesn't excuse past behavior.

I'm guessing jbomber did ask to be replaced, because it was early after the prod.

Also I forgot to mention in my last post that I still find davesaz a bit scummy as well.

[PointYBagelS]

Looks like Vampirate wagon is crashing and burning.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Xayzeck

I don't really like either wagon but I'd rather vote here than for Skold.

[PointYBagelS]

Looks like Vampirate wagon is crashing and burning.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Xayzeck

I don't really like either wagon but I'd rather vote here than for Skold.

Mind elaborating a bit? Which 2 wagons are you referring to?

Xay and Skold. It seems apparent that one of them is getting lynched. I'd rather vote for Xay, of those two, even though there are others I'd much prefer to vote for.

[PointYBagelS]

Xay and Skold. It seems apparent that one of them is getting lynched. I'd rather vote for Xay, of those two, even though there are others I'd much prefer to vote for.

Apart from Vamp's slot, you'd prefer kitz? Also, why do you think Errant could be scum?

Yes to the first question. I don't like the way she doesn't vote or say much of anything. As for Errant, I had a bit of an early scumread on her during RVS but as the game progressed, and especially in the last few pages, my worries have mostly subsided. I'll reevaluate my read after some people flip. Consider my read on her to be null for the time being.

anyone on xay do you think a no lynch is better than a skold lynch

No, but I hope I don't get put in the position to decide.

[PointYBagelS]

God damn it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Skold

L-1. Someone put this day out of its misery.

[PointYBagelS]

The Doc must have protected someone fairly townread/obvious. I'd say the most likely of which would have to be me, BagelS, or Nero. I'll see if I can find anything based off of that now.

Speculating is useless until we see quite a few more flips. Doing so only makes you look scummy.

Let's talk about how Skold was the obvious easy lynch yesterday with his odd logic and inactivity. The fact that House pushed so hard doesn't sit with me.

VOTE: House

[PointYBagelS]

Though for the record I'm not too opposed to a Kitz wagon either. The lack of content in her posts is disturbing and very anti-town.

[PointYBagelS]

What makes me more Meh than anyone else here for an opening? What makes me so much more troubling?
I even freaking contributed by sharing my thoughts about the possibilities.

Nightkill speculation, is not inherently towny, though the way you did it isn't scummy either. It accomplishes nothing, much like everything else you've posted.

That said I'm not entirely unconvinced that you're not lined up to be the next "easy lynch". I'll have to look into it though, because I have had a minor scum read on you for a while.

[PointYBagelS]

Wow, that triple negative is both impossible to read and means the opposite of what it was supposed to. To clarify: I think Kitz might be an "easy lynch".

[PointYBagelS]

Is this Nero/House smackdown going to last a while? Because I'm already over it.

Over it, past it, beyond it and they need to get a room unless they already have one called a scum QT in case one or both of them is faking it big time.

Although it's good to know how it feels to be watching a meltdown go down.

House, because Vampirate has yet to make a post that I feel good about.

I don't think Vampirate is townie of the year or anything, I just don't think he's scum. I don't see scum being so outspoken about avoiding being lynched.

I really hate this mentality. Survivalism,

especially

on day one is not alignment indicative in any way.

It doesn't matter what side you are on, getting lynched day 1 is bad. Sure if you're scum on day 3 and everyone knows it, it might be better to die before you slip up and out a teammate, but on day 1 no one knows anything. Getting lynched on day 1 means your side goes into day 2 (when people can start actually analyzing the game) a man down, which as far as I can tell is always a disadvantage.

[PointYBagelS]

I still think House is scummy, but there's an obvious scum among us and it isn't House.

This game seems like it is stalling a little bit. I realize it is still early in the day, but my gut wants to say that scum is demotivated by the night kill and has become less involved in the game because of it. This leaves 2 people as standing out as scummy for being a bit less active than they were on day 1. Xayzeck and Vampirate. Arguably Rubicon can be considered a part of this group as well, but his few posts today seem pretty town-ish so I doubt he's scum. This is obviously not a legitimate way to scumread, but it is a good place to start, I think.

I've now reread both of their ISOs, and it is pretty clear that Vampirate is scum.

Vampirate seems to have legitimately scumread 2 people, Skold and Xayzeck (plus Ricastle, to an extent). Despite calling Xayzeck out for being anti-town, he never changes his vote. While I understand the worry that Xayzeck might be an easy mislynch due to his lurkiness, I don't understand why a town-Vampirate wouldn't think the same of Skold, who also lurked through most of his wagon. This double standard to me implies that he's not legitimately scumreading anyone, and is just putting up appearances.

Additionally, Vampirate has done very little, if any, actual scumhunting. He's asked questions but nothing really substantial. Mostly he's just asked people to clarify what they were saying.

So we have someone who reaches questionable conclusions, has not scumhunted, replaced in for someone who was already scummy, is borderline lurking. If quacks like a duck...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vampirate

[PointYBagelS]

I've been busy and I think I'm going to go V/LA until Tuesday. I'll try to post as much as I can though. Anyway here's my reply to Vampirate

I've now reread both of their ISOs, and it is pretty clear that Vampirate is scum.

Well that's just your opinion man.

Vampirate seems to have legitimately scumread 2 people, Skold and Xayzeck (plus Ricastle, to an extent). Despite calling Xayzeck out for being anti-town, he never changes his vote. While I understand the worry that Xayzeck might be an easy mislynch due to his lurkiness, I don't understand why a town-Vampirate wouldn't think the same of Skold, who also lurked through most of his wagon. This double standard to me implies that he's not legitimately scumreading anyone, and is just putting up appearances.

You're twisting the story here. I voted Skold on the basis of survival, period. I didn't know one way or the other if he was scum but it was better than voting myself here, I was null on Skold, I didn't Scum read him. As for Xayzeck, I said he was the easy lynch straight away due to his lurky anti town behavior, I NEVER SAID I WAS SCUM READING HIM, AND THEREFORE DID NOT VOTE HIM. If I scum read him I would have switched my vote, 0/2 here. Are you referring to my reply to Elusive's post? Obviously, pretty much anyone would say that lynching someone they don't know the alignment of would be better than lynching themselves. How is this scum reading Xay? The only part you have right was I was scum reading Ricastle at the time due. I've since been pretty null on him though.

Additionally, Vampirate has done very little, if any, actual scumhunting. He's asked questions but nothing really substantial. Mostly he's just asked people to clarify what they were saying.

Fair enough but why are you signaling myself out when you already said you find House scummy, and are blaming me for the things Xayzeck has done.

So we have someone who reaches questionable conclusions, has not scumhunted, replaced in for someone who was already scummy, is borderline lurking. If quacks like a duck...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vampirate

It's a moose : P

Judging by this, you're scum reading House but you want to vote myself over him, you're also twisting the story to suit your own purposes and while reading Xay's and my ISO are scum reading me for the same things Xay was doing? This feels like you're setting me up to be honest, smells of manipulation. I haven't voted for you....yet.

Since you think i'm the most obvious scum over Xay, what is your take on him?

You never said you were scumreading Xay, but in 991 you did say that Xayzeck was doing something anti town. Admittedly anti town is not scummy but they go hand in hand.

As for house, I'm still null-scum reading him, but at the very least he acted in a way that isn't impossible for town.

I'm absolutely also scumreading Xay, for many of the same reason. Don't think that just because you're the one I voted for means he's off the hook. If people would rather wagon him I'd probably switch, but at the moment I am finding you scummier.

What are your thoughts on Xay right now?

[PointYBagelS]

@PointyBagelS - Also, if you think i'm a very scummy player, this must mean you have an opinion on Klingoncelt. What is your take on Klingoncelt considering i'm scumreading and voting for her?

Klingon seemed to be digging herself into a bit of a hole but Nero did the same a few pages ago and I still think he's town. I'll give you that Klingon doesn't seem to be "easy lynch" material like Skold was so I'm less inclined to think she's town there. However, the fact that the wagon popped up after you got 2 votes makes me wonder if it is scum driven. This is especially because you and Ricastle were the ones to push it.

1333 also looks like you are trying to cast me as scum simply because I am voting you.

Ricastle is looking scummier by the minute, and I might change my vote, but regardless of his alignment your hard defense of him does not make me think you're town.

Ricastle was sk hunting, trying to undermine a townbloc, and part of 2 separate counterwagons to you though. I think we may have found a scumteam. I dont like calling a scumteam before a flip, but the sheer amount of interaction between you two makes me more ok with it.

[PointYBagelS]

@Ricastle: What is your current read on Vampirate?

[PointYBagelS]

Not really. At that point you weren't as scummy.

[PointYBagelS]

I'm pretty null on house.

[PointYBagelS]

@Ricastle: What is your current read on Vampirate?

Null. He has good reason to be defending me.

You're putting too much faith into the townbloc; that's the mistake I made before. I've already answered every other concern of yours.

And on the subject of counterwagons, what do you make of the 'case' on me being a counter to the KC wagon?

It is certainly a possibility, but I'm scumreading a lot of KC's wagon and townreading a lot of yours.

I'm pretty null on house.

So you're honestly telling me House hard defending me, the person who you are scum reading, on Day 1 and getting the wagon switched from myself to Skold doesn't make you have a strong opinion on him, but somehow me defending Ricastle is ringing scum alarm bells?



Explain this.

You had barely posted, House was defending jbomber, who had also barely posted. I thought he was scummy but I can understand why house wouldn't.

I'd also like to point out that I opened the day by voting house. I find you and ricastle to be much scummier right now.

but Nero did the same a few pages

What whole did I dig myself?

You got into a rather long semantic argument with house that didn't make you look too good. It arguably obscured/prevented actual discussion.

@Xayzeck: what do you think of the current wagons?

[PointYBagelS]

Reads from my notes - these are from before Madman replaced in so they're definitely going to change as I catch up:

Town

elusive
Grib
Davesaz
Creative

Don't want to lynch

Xayzeck
Ricastle
PeaceBringer
Nero Cain
davesaz

Possible scum

Kitz
PointYBagelS
House (r. Megalo)
Errantparabola
Vampirate (r. jbomber732)
Klingoncelt
Boonskiies
Bellaphant (r. bewilderbeast)

I realized I haven't been too active lately (midterms...) but I'll just pop in to say that this list is pretty similar to mine.

Main differences being myself and nero in town, ricastle and xay in possible scum, and house in meh.

Hopefully I'll be able to post something more comprehensive tomorrow.

[PointYBagelS]

This is a reply to 1654. I'm not quoting it because of how long it is.

Responses:

4: They tend to go hand in hand
5: You call me a liar and then say something like this with no hint of irony? There is no meta in my argument against you.
6: As elusive said, once the skold wagon started he posted like twice.
8: If you do then you are wrong.
9: do you know what the word "appears" means?
15: Sure you're scumhunting now, after I called you on not doing it.


On House:
I didn't like the Skold wagon and I've made no secret of it. House led the skold wagon. He's on my potential scum list for that, but right now he's not really triggering my scum radar for other reasons.

House hard defending your slot was more of a vehicle to push his own wagon, while your hard defense of Ricastle was solely to stop the wagon. These are not the same thing like you claim they are.

I want a response to 5. That is a complete and blatant lie. Why are you trying to construe a hypothetical statement as meta?

[PointYBagelS]

I want to hear from others on what they think of the argument me and Pointy are having so far and weigh in with their opinions.

Does his reply make you think he's townier?

Not really, although this is kinda meta, I feel a town person would really claw into every single point I made, not single out some and leave out others.

Another thing is I feel like his reason for voting me is made up, the closest thing he had in his post that voted me was I wasn't scum hunting at the time.

From an outside perspective i can see that.

His other points though I really don't like.

A lot of your points are very repetitive, I didn't feel the need to write the same reply multiple times. It doesn't help my opinion of you that you expected me to individually reply to a bunch of points that all said basically the same thing.

Also it appears we are using different definitions of meta, you are using it to refer to "the" metagame, whereas I have been using it to refer to a person's metagame. I don't really have an issue with the kind of reasoning you appear to dislike. "town acts like this, scum acts like that" is pretty much the foundation of scumhunting. What don't you like about this concept?

Anyway it's obvious vamp isn't getting lynched today. I'll move to a different scumread with how close we are to deadline.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Xayzeck

[PointYBagelS]

Looks like we're going to have another deadline runup.

These are very anti-town. On future days I think we should look at people who aren't voting as potential scum. Though it seems we're already doing that. Non-voters are 3 of the top 4 wagons.

[PointYBagelS]

Nero leading the charge on boons is, in my opinion, a null tell. This is also true for eventually dropping the wagon. Scum would not have known boons is the traitor.

You do not get three town counterwagons to a wagon on town.

VOTE: klingoncelt

Die.

I actually think I agree with this. I'm not going to vote just yet though because Klingon looked a lot like a counterwagon to you. Worth a reread and maybe a VCA.

[PointYBagelS]

Some thoughts:

Vamp is still a scumread, but not nearly as much of one with Xay flipping town. As I said Day 2 I was scumreading them for a lot of the same reasons.

Can't say I disagree with the Klingon wagon. Peace seems scummier right now but with the hard defense of Klingon it doesn't make her look any better. I won't vote on it quite yet but I'm definitely interested to see where it goes. If Klingon gets lynched and flips scum though, I think there's a very high chance that scum will be bussing her with this many early votes.

Even though Peace and Klingon seem scummy, I'm still not ready to say Elusive is likely scum. I'll probably get a better idea when she posts more today though.

[PointYBagelS]

Also the fact that all 3 of you are saying the same EXACT thing makes my hair stand on end.

I mean it's pretty basic stuff. No one knows for sure who the traitor is on day 1. I saw Rubicon make a post that implied you could have known boons was a traitor which obviously isn't the case, so I posted.

so pointy, what is it about what you see that "seems scummy." Seem scummy gets thrown around an awful lot. Oh and please tell me why scum here would "hard defend" KC? what would be gained? This comes off an off like you are throwing stuff against the wall that others may agree with but sitting back to see what happens, also known as a "drive by."

Your attitude mainly. There seems to be a disproportionate amount of of chainsawing/OMGUS from you. Evident in your response to me.

As for KC, If KC is scum a hard defense is obviously to prevent the lynch. If KC is town its for the town cred. I don't think KC seems particularly town right now so your hard defense looks odd regardless of her alignment.

I wasn't voting because none of my reads are particularly strong right now, but if you insist...

VOTE: PeaceBringer

Happy now?

[PointYBagelS]

Peacbringer, other than Ricastle, who do you think is especially scummy right now?

Klingon, I'd like an answer from you as well.

[PointYBagelS]

Why, other than my suspicion of you, do you find me scummy?

[PointYBagelS]

Why, other than my suspicion of you, do you find me scummy?

I assume that you are asking me but I do find it odd that you were null on the 3rd biggest poster (now 4th after lurking it up all day yesterday). Even if you were null, the fact that House has nearly 200 posts and not a single one sways you in any direction makes me

Though TBF, I did just get out of a game where a town player was null on scum with over 200 posts so it can clearly come from bad town.

Also

You led a scum wagon and then abandoned it.

Yeah, I'll give you some credit for not pressuring scum but creating a wagon on them, and then leaving it for a town wagon

Nero leading the charge on boons is, in my opinion, a null tell. This is also true for eventually dropping the wagon

makes me a tad worried that scum is parroting someone here. Its not even really factually correct as the Boons wagon petered out on its own.

Also I was voting Jbomber so, whom hasn't flipped yet, so Taly saying that was voting town is p suspicious.

Why are you so suspicious of me, Pointy?

Was actually asking Peace but nothing wrong with another answer. I'm not actually suspicious of you at all, you're a townlean for me. The reason I "paroted" Rubicon and Taly is because Rubicon and Taly seemed to be forming a proto-scumread based on that fact, which I think is bullshit. Sorry if it was unclear.

[PointYBagelS]

So I'm unclear here. Is Grib actually claiming vigilante or not?

I don't like the timing of Peace's claim but for the moment, I will UNVOTE:

I'm pretty suspicious of Klingon, but I don't really want to put her at L-1 this early in the day. Wouldn't mind putting pressure on Vampirate either.

[PointYBagelS]

This game is starting to go off the rails.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

L-2

[PointYBagelS]

What do you make of PB's claim that he tracked her and there was no action on her behalf?

I don't think it is very alignment indicative, especially since there was no kill that night.

[PointYBagelS]

YO pointy what's scum motivation behind no kill

I think no kill would have been a terrible idea and I doubt they did it. Doesn't rule out something like a jailkeeper though.

I doubt this game has doctors or town-aligned bulletproofs.

[PointYBagelS]

Call it a gut feeling.

I'm more inclined to think they are around if Peace is lying, but his claim actually seems pretty likely. No one has counterclaimed so Peace is Townlean for now.

You still haven't answered my question Grib. Are you claiming vigilante?

[PointYBagelS]

Why do you want him to full claim?

I don't necessarily. I want to know if he did.

The answer appears to be no.

[PointYBagelS]

It's a big game. Why not an Investigative + Protective combo? Plus whatever I am.

Mafia had a Traitor. I am not vanilla. Doesn't sound balanced unless there's 5 scum.

5 Scum in an 18-player game??!

With a traitor this shouldn't be surprising.

[PointYBagelS]

Just want to point out that this game uses the old normal guidelines.

Traitor was not yet formally standardized.

[PointYBagelS]

@Mod: Can we get a votecount? It has been a while since the last one.

I really really do not like how as soon as klingon gets too close to a lynch, the wagon falls apart. As Ricastle pointed out, a similar thing happened yesterday where multiple counterwagons formed to Klingon.

Admittedly I was on one of these but it was a deadline lynch.

Pedit: Not liking davesaz's post at all.

[PointYBagelS]

This Ricastle wagon is scummy as hell.

[PointYBagelS]

Also errant there is no way there are 5 scum plus a traitor unless it is a multiball game, which seems unlikely given the nokill night 1.

That would be a full third of players as scum.

[PointYBagelS]

This Ricastle wagon is scummy as hell.

really

vote castle

please tell me who you think is scum on the vote...TIA

Klingon and Errant would be my top 2.

Wouldn't be surprised if taly was either.

[PointYBagelS]

I know you're just suspecting me, but I'd just like it if people based their opinions on me NOT because of my predecessors.

It comes with the territory for replacing.

Your predecessors had the same alignment as you, thus anything alignment-indicative that they do is alignment-indicative for you as well.

[PointYBagelS]

prodge. I'll catch up and post in a bit

[PointYBagelS]

Well look at that, there's a wagon on me. I'd be worried if it wasn't so scummy.

I bet there were 2 scum on it. Money's on Errant and Elusive.

[PointYBagelS]

You want to be tomorrow's lynch in the worst way, don't you, Ri?

These guys were on both of the 1st 2 mislynches:

Davesaz
Vampirate
Ricastle
Nero Cain
PointYBagelS

Look who's voting for me:
davesaz
Vampirate
Ricastle
PointYBagelS
RationalMadman


Hmmm...

Let's ignore the fact that the only reason I voted Skold was to avoid a no-lynch.

Nothing wrong with extending the day, but let's try to avoid a third deadline lynch in a row.

[PointYBagelS]

Those are two people I adore and have played a lot with in the past and enjoy. I enjoy them greatly especially when they're on their A game.

And here I was thinking buddying didn't happen in real games.

[PointYBagelS]

Comfirming that claim.

[PointYBagelS]

You must be thinking of a different role. This is my role:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... y_Neighbor

So it really does nothing to clear either of them directly.

Mm, so that's why bagel called your wagon scummy as hell.

Indeed, also because it was scummy though. If I thought it was a misplaced town wagon I would have said so.

[PointYBagelS]

KC flipping town.

Kling can you please claim ur role?
Any actions before thread is lock

If elusive is saying truth then she likely dies tonight.
I think rubicon is town, strong reasons.
Ricastle lock town, I'm guessing his weak role thing was because he is a neighbor? I don't see how's thsts a weak pr. That's a lazy reason to vote KC. Neighbor are always town aligned and is a role that can easy clear.
I think we are looking good even if we MISLYNCH here. She's poe anyways and won't make it far alive.
I want to clear vamp and errant too for a super solid town block. Anyone else we can kill in any order
From slankers and up

What are you trying to say here? Do you know something we don't about KC's role? Or do you just think KC is a bad choice. Because if it's the latter you could just come out and say it.

[PointYBagelS]

@MOD: If I'm not mistaken, RIP's vote is currently on davesaz

[PointYBagelS]

Unless he has 2 unseen votes?

[PointYBagelS]

RIP, despite being linked to the wiki page you seem to still not understand what Ricastle is.

He is a Friendly Neighbor. NOT a Neighborizer. This means
1: He is confirmed town. Scum Friendly Neighbor is, by definition, impossible. (barring bastard games, which this is not)
2: There is no neighborhood.

[PointYBagelS]

If RIP flips town what then?

Even if town(which I doubt), Klingon is a distraction. While you're alive RIP is in no position to become town leader and honestly I'm not sure anyone would let him even if not.

He's not the worst lynch, and I'll jump if people would seriously rather do that, but I'm worried RIP might be skold part 2.

The number of Klingon counterwagons still suggests she's scum.

[PointYBagelS]

People, this isn't difficult. I'm wondering why Kllingon put off her claim DESPITE THINKING SHE HAD BEEN HAMMERED, even though it was clearly what town wanted from her.

I'm not asking whether or not she claimed.

This is good

2 thoughts:

If she was hammered there's no reason to claim. Everyone will see soon enough.

I saw through the fake hammer immediately, I doubt I was the only one. Klingon may have seen through it as well.

Klingon is still scum but this isn't great reasoning.

[PointYBagelS]

TOWN
PointYBagelS
Grib
Taly
pisskop
Vampirate
Rubicon
Nero Cain
davesaz
PeaceBringer
RIP
elusive
Errantparabola
SCUM

Kinda wish Ricastle didn't claim yesterday. I'm pretty sure we still could have gotten KC lynched if he didn't. At this point there's only one other player in this game who I'm certain is town. I guess that's how nighkills work though.

Taly, Pisskop, and I have all been Klingon counterwagons. I think that gives me a slight townlean for them.

I actually think that bussing is unlikely for Klingon, since she had such an important scum role. I'm guessing 2 of the 3 remaining scum are going to be found off-wagon.

Let's look at these counterwagons.

Vote Count

Klingoncelt

(5):

Boonskiies, Vampirate, Ricastle, Nero Cain, Rubicon

Bellaphant

(2):

PeaceBringer, Klingoncelt

RationalMadman

(2):

Errantparabola, elusive

Vampirate

(1):

PointYBagelS

PeaceBringer

(1):

Grib

Nero Cain

(1):

House

Not Voting

(5):

Bellaphant, davesaz, RationalMadman, Creative, Xayzeck

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-05-06 11:00:00)

Look at the voters on RationalMadman-Now pisskop.

Now look at the voters on me.

Vote Count

Klingoncelt

(7):

Ricastle, Vampirate, pisskop, PointYBagelS, davesaz, Nero Cain, Taly

PointYBagelS

(3):

Errantparabola, PeaceBringer, elusive

pisskop

(2):

Rubicon, Grib

Ricastle

(1):

Klingoncelt

elusive

(1):

RIP

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-05-23 21:30:00)

Not completely sure which, but at least one of these is scum.

VOTE: ErrantParabola

[PointYBagelS]

From what I understand from the wiki, yes.

Unless they have another encrypter, I guess.

[PointYBagelS]

How about you give us a reads list of your own instead of just telling us that we're wrong.

Nice soft defend on Errant though.

[PointYBagelS]

RIP I could believe. Taly I think is town because his slot was a Klingon counterwagon, though admittedly not the scummiest of the three at the time.

Why don't you support your reads with evidence that allows someone to follow your logical thought processes?

Errant has been away due to RL reasons and so therefore focusing on a player that hasn't been here seems a bit tawdry or let me blunt opportunistic and vile.

I've been pretty scumlean on Errant from the start. VCA from the beginning of the game is good if you're looking at an ISO but I was specifically looking at Klingon counterwagons. You have been on two of them, and Errant has been on 3. If we count the 3 from day 2 as one since they all happened at the same time, Errant has been on all of them

Here's the third set of Klingon counterwagons.

Vote Count

Klingoncelt

(4):

Ricastle, Vampirate, RationalMadman, PointYBagelS

RationalMadman

(4):

Rubicon, Grib, RIP, PeaceBringer

Ricastle

(3):

Klingoncelt, Taly, Errantparabola

elusive

(2):

Nero Cain, elusive

Not Voting

(1):

davesaz

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-05-23 21:30:00)

Note

: PointYBagelS has been prodded.

I'm going to ignore your self vote here because as terrible as it is, it actually seems to be in line with your meta.

I'm sorry you can't see it elusive but Errant is scum.

Why are you, Grib, and Rubicon all still alive?

[PointYBagelS]

However, as the wagon progresses I did clearly change my mind even if I wasn't voting her and instead trying to feel out who she might be associated with.

"As the wagon progressed I did decide to softbus and spot potential easy lynches for the future"
Sorry but no vote = no town credit.

Rubicon I agree. And I think what it says is that there's scum in his townbloc and he might potentially defend them.

[PointYBagelS]

I will never get over the Traitor thing. It's sorry dumb. It's so useless looking at interactions and votes for someone the mafia didn't even know was mafia.

Rubicon and elusive make me sad. I might actually have to pursue one of their deaths. elusive feels more accusatory (scummy) than predatory (town), but I still want to think she's town for the way her posts are structured? And Rubicon's reads have matched mine through most of the game (although he has definitely given honest town/scumreads as scum in the past).

Also I'm kind if really mad at myself. I had the chance to prevent the NK last Night (it was between Ricastle, the townfirm-turned-Vanilla, and PB, a PR capable of actually catching the scum doing the killing), and I chose PB. Muh bluh.

Actual posts, self-inflicted paranoia, and questioning my reads and lifestyle choices later when I can find a computer.

Since you are claiming to have some sort of protective ability:

Did you use it night 1, and if so, on whom?

A (mostly) confirmed townie would be nice to have right now.

[PointYBagelS]

Honestly, I think scum probably shot a BP N1. Or something where it's impossible to determine who did the shooting. I can't imagine why someone would keep that kind of information quiet for this long.

Fair enough.

[PointYBagelS]

Why only slight
Like why would scum try to counterwagon on one of their own
I say more than slight, right?

Well there's no reason to assume

all

of the counterwagons were scumwagons. Especially since there were 3 at the same time on day 2, it's likely that at least one of them was a town wagon, which may have been on scum.

[PointYBagelS]

Vamp why is RIP town?

[PointYBagelS]

Elusive, I've about had it with your terrible, terrible votes.

VOTE: elusive

I think this whole "Klingon knew too much about Ricastle" line of thinking is looking in the wrong direction. From what I can see, Klingon thought Ricastle had a weak PR, which he did not have. Obviously she wouldn't come out and say she thought he was FN since it would out a partner, but I don't think it's an unreasonable line of thinking that a softclaimed PR is weak. The nature of weak PRs makes them pretty useless once they are fully claimed.

What posts did Klingon make that seemed like she knew too much?

[PointYBagelS]

If there's a scum in that list im betting everything on nero or pointy.

Here's what we can get from that list.

There is 98 % chance there's none or just one scum there.
I say if we find one then we can lock clear the rest

That list, as has already been said, is pure WIFOM. She knew she was getting lynched at that point, so anything she posted was with the knkwledge that we would soon know she was scum. There is, in my opinion, not much use in looking at it to gain information.

I actually vaguely agree with you that nero might be scum though. The last twodays something has just felt off about him.

I'm very conflicted about elusive. On the on hand the anger is pretty null to me, and the attitude towards lynching her reminds me a lot of Skold from day 1. On the other, her voting patterns are scummy as hell, and a lot of what she says seems scummy too.

Basically, she's scummy but her wagon feels scummy too. I'm going to
UNVOTE:
for now until I get a better bearing on this.

[PointYBagelS]

VOTE: pisskop

Let's see where this goes.

I realize Taly is V/LA but not really liking the lurking there either.

[PointYBagelS]

That wagon went up too fast to be entirely town.

UNVOTE:

[PointYBagelS]

That wagon went up too fast to be entirely town.

UNVOTE:

so who on the run up do you think is scum?

RIP is starting to worry me. I'm not liking how he's been trying to direct the town. This seems like the kind of thing Ricastle was worried about. Admittedly he was more worried about it if KC flipped town, but I think the point stands. The fact that he was not on the KC wagon also has me a bit worried.

[PointYBagelS]

Actually lets see where this goes.

VOTE: RIP

[PointYBagelS]

UNVOTE:
Rip's claim is interesting...

I've been away but I'll be back tomorrow so I'll make a longer post then.

[PointYBagelS]

I don't like either of these wagons. On the one hand, ika's slot was a day 2 klingon counterwagon, and on the other, elusive just doesn't seem like scum to me. I don't feel like a scum slot would get so many lurkers though. Sure some scum lurk but everyone in that slot has. If I had to choose, I'd vote elusive I guess, but i don't really want to because i actually think she might be town.

[PointYBagelS]

@elusive it would be the lesser of two evils. Rubicon brings up a good point though, I'll have to think about it.

[PointYBagelS]

At this point it looks like ika is going to be lynched for sure. If no one else hammers I probably will.

However, if he's really town he should give a reads list or something so we know what a confirmed (by death) townie thinks.

The fact that he hasn't done this already is a bit of a scumtell I think. Reminds me of Klingon.

[PointYBagelS]

Anyone else find it odd that ika is posting elsewhere but not here, despite being at L-1?

Intent to Hammer within (expired on 2015-06-03 02:00:00)

Assuming ika doesn't post before then and that nobody beats me to it.

[PointYBagelS]

Well then. Guess that works too.

He posted multiple times elsewhere after I put up the countdown. I don't know how much more threatening I can get...

Now to see the flip I guess.

[PointYBagelS]

Well, low hanging fruit turned out to be scum on the last 2 days...

VOTE: Taly

[PointYBagelS]

Peace and RIP: results?

[PointYBagelS]

Vamp why were you suggesting that we lynch you? Isn't that bad a bad move as any alignment (barring some sort of third party which would definitely be non-normal).

[PointYBagelS]

I'm VT

Obviously not a fan of people suggesting I be the lynch and to be honest grib I don't think my interactions with kitz make much of a case.

Vampirate might be scum. I think elusive had a descent case against him, and the lack of any scum votes on the slot day 1 is suspect.

Not going to lie, taly looks like an easy lynch but both of the last scum were (to an extent) so meh.

I guess I'd be fine with a vampirate or taly vote today. Hopefully taly starts posting though...

[PointYBagelS]

I'm VT

Obviously not a fan of people suggesting I be the lynch and to be honest grib I don't think my interactions with kitz make much of a case.

Vampirate might be scum. I think elusive had a descent case against him, and the lack of any scum votes on the slot day 1 is suspect.

Not going to lie, taly looks like an easy lynch but both of the last scum were (to an extent) so meh.

I guess I'd be fine with a vampirate or taly vote today. Hopefully taly starts posting though...

I definitely think that if Taly and Vampirate don't end the game, you can die right after them.

Hope they end the game then, or that you change your mind before then. I feel like you're selectively using some evidence while ignoring other evidence

[PointYBagelS]

What other evidence?

Well the fact that I was a relatively early Klingon voter for one. After a quick vote for Peacebringer I pretty much sheeped Ricastle all day, considering that Klingon flipped scum this seems like odd behavior for a teammate of hers. The fact that I was a counterwagon to Klingon doesn't help your case either, though it would require Errant, RIP, elusive, or peace to be scum.


PEDIT: @Rubicon - The game seemed like it had a lot of power roles. At that point I already knew that Ricastle was the friendly neighbor, Peace claimed tracker, and I thought Grib was a vig. I was under the impression that there wouldn't be a doctor because it would make the game too townsided. Clearly, I may have been wrong, but at the same time Scum had both an encryptor and a roleblocker: very good roles. I do think the current claims point to there being 4.5 total scum if all the people claiming PR are telling the truth though.

[PointYBagelS]

You'll note I qualified that statement with who would need to be scum for it to make any sense. Considering that they are probably all town, you can consider that null.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the PR claims is scum, especially if 2 remain.

What other evidence?

Well the fact that I was a relatively early Klingon voter for one. After a quick vote for Peacebringer I pretty much sheeped Ricastle all day, considering that Klingon flipped scum this seems like odd behavior for a teammate of hers. The fact that I was a counterwagon to Klingon doesn't help your case either, though it would require Errant, RIP, elusive, or peace to be scum.

You do realize i've been actively scum hunting KC early on Day 2 and viciously defended Ricastle.

How can you use this to excuse yourself and agree with elusive's case on me? The logic that would be applied to you would automatically have to be applied to me.

It can and it does. You'll note I'm not voting you.

[PointYBagelS]

has Taly claimed yet?

Have you?

[PointYBagelS]

Nero I appreciate the town read but who, that was on my wagon, do you think is scum?

[PointYBagelS]

Just want to point out that Nero's not confirmed town either, and we shouldn't treat him like he is.

I'm actually starting to worry that he might be scum. If taly flips town I don't think we should completely overlook him.

I'm a little bothered that he put himself on his confirmed town list. I realize that everyone's confirmed to themself, but that seems a bit more sinister than, for example, putting yourself in a townreads list.

Maybe I'm nitpicking, but Nero worries me.

[PointYBagelS]

Wait, I just remembered I gathered the quotes overNight:

Though for the record I'm not too opposed to a Kitz wagon either. The lack of content in her posts is disturbing and very anti-town.

Wow, that triple negative is both impossible to read and means the opposite of what it was supposed to. To clarify: I think Kitz might be an "easy lynch".

Like. Come on. It looks like textbook coaching/distancing.

Thought of another defense for you, Grib.

If I was "coaching" Kitz, why didn't I do it in the scum PT? Scum had daytalk at that point.

[PointYBagelS]

Unofficial VC:

Vampirate (4): BlueBloodedToffee, elusive, Nero Cain, PeaceBringer
Taly (2): Rubicon, PointYBagelS
PeaceBringer (1): Vampirate

I'll use this opportunity to say that I think Vampirate is the wrong lynch today.

[PointYBagelS]

Have Peace or RIP come out with results for today yet?

[PointYBagelS]

Oh.

So either there's 2 scum left, peace is lying about being a tracker, or Taly is really a VT. (or any combination of those, I guess).

Or a ninja, I guess, that's possible with a tracker. Ninja wasn't normal under the old guidelines, and neither was friendly neighbor, so that'd be the maximum of 2 non-normals right there.

Voting Nero is starting to make more and more sense. Or Peace, I guess...

[PointYBagelS]

Well, mafia had an encryptor and a roleblocker and at least 1 other. A godfather/ninja/mafia JOAT would probably make it relatively even, no?

[PointYBagelS]

Peace is confirmable.

Grib guards BBT
Peace tracks BBT

BBT waits to see Peace's result before coming out and saying who he visited.


Scum tracker is still possible but it would prove whether or not Peace really is one.

[PointYBagelS]

Well, no-kills could screw all that up. I think it's unlikely though.

[PointYBagelS]

If you guys lynch me you just save me the reading of 3700+ posts and kill a VT. So if you're cool with mislynching a replacement before he even settles into the game ... that's on you.

To be fair, last time we did that we hit scum...

We're also 10 days to deadline. RIP hasn't even shown up yet. I don't think anyone's going to be hammering for a bit.

[PointYBagelS]

That would imply another roleblocker is in play, or that Nero is ascetic.

I'm assuming the odds of there being two scum roleblockers are basically zero. Which means that Nero is ascetic, and thus scum for lying about being a VT.

The other option, of course, is that RIP is a dirty liar. Personally I'd be fine with lynching them both, but I'd prefer lynching Nero first.

I've been suspicious of Nero Cain since late day 4, I think it's past time for this.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nero Cain

Another idea, perhaps, would be to have Peace target Nero instead and see if he gets a result, but this doesn't work at the same time as the other plan.

[PointYBagelS]

The idea behind tracking Nero would be to "ascetic check" him. No result = ascetic

Tracking RIP is less effective in that regard.

[PointYBagelS]

Also RIP, while we're talking about strange possible happenings. Are you certain that none of your predecessors used a shot before you arrived, causing a no result because you were out of shots?

I'm sure this isn't the case, because idk why the mod would pm "no result" instead of "you're out of shots", but I was really not expecting an ascetic this game, and this is the only other possibility that makes any sort of sense.

The problem is that if there

is

is another roleblocker, RIP would be the obvious target for a roleblock, especially since he wasn't the intended kill. But that possibility just seems so strange.

[PointYBagelS]

No way a scum RIP would fake something like this. If/when we lynch Nero, if he flips VT that's a lot of attention directed back at RIP, which scum wouldn't want. Not with only 1 or 2 of them remaining and not this far from LyLo.

The only way this makes sense as a scum move is as a bus, and that is a terrible idea for similar reasons as above. Namely: it's too far from LyLo for the scumteam to intentionally cut their numbers in half (and presumably be facing a 1v8 tomorrow)

It's been nearly a day and no response from Nero. That in itself is rather telling, I think.

[PointYBagelS]

I don't get how a "no result" turns into a guilty. That assumes ascetic is only used as a scum modifier, doesn't it?
I would like to see more explanation from RIP. Twice now he has claimed to be lying about something.

It's not that ascetic is a scum role, it's that ascetic is decidedly not a vanilla role, and if what RIP says is true, then Nero lied about being a VT, something that is more than scummy enough for a lynch.


However lets wait for RIP, because "I got no PM" and "I got a PM that said "No Result"" are not the same thing, and I'd like to know which it was.

[PointYBagelS]

Hey RIP, the game is kind of at a standstill until you post more.

[PointYBagelS]

And we kind of need him to elaborate on what exactly happened.

This isn't something he should have to be asked to do.

Anyone else think this means he's more likely to be lying? I'll give him a chance, and I think Nero is the scummier of the two, but this isn't looking great.

[PointYBagelS]

Whoops. Sorry about the lurking. First I was waiting for RIP to post something, and then I had finals and now I'm moving out.

Anyway RIP getting no result but not immediately suspecting Nero of being scum is so, so terrible. It's like he threw in a non-inno to make his cop claim more believable (somehow) but still has some sort of plausible deniability when Nero flips town. This reeks of a half assed attempt at a play.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RIP

If he flips cop we can worry about Nero tomorrow.

L - 2

[PointYBagelS]

Elusive. It's easy to fake an inno as scum. He wouldn't have to have info to say the slot is town.

[PointYBagelS]

Actually I want to expand that question:

To people not voting either Nero or Rip: why not? It's pretty apparent that one or both of them is lying.

[PointYBagelS]

I agree with elusive, it's not obvious. Nero seems town and shouldn't really have claimed VT as ascetic. Meanwhile RIP was being treated as nearly confirmed town before this: why would he throw that away? What does he even gain from it?

It wouldn't exactly surprise me if we lynch RIP and he flips cop, we lynch Nero and he flips VT, and then when the game is over we find out there's a mafia JOAT and Shinobi laughs at us all for setup spec. Or RIP is somehow really confused and wasn't roleblocked at all. Or doing a stupid gambit.

Actually that makes sense. But in that case, if Peace is saying drixx didn't visit anyone, then he neither made the kill nor RBed RIP. The odds of him being scum are not very high in either of these scenarios.

Assuming Peace is telling the truth, of course.

[PointYBagelS]

What king of mafia JOAT has a vig kill though?

Drixx is significantly less likely to be scum than anyone else. we should stop voting him. If he visited no one and there was a roleblock, the only way he's scum is if the mafia intentionally no-killed and there are 2 of them, or if a teammate performed the kill and a roleblock, which seems unlikely.

If Rip or Nero is lying, then obviously the scum is one of them. Only way Drixx is scum is if RIP/Nero performed the kill and there are 2 scum.

It's not imposible but at this stage it is very unlikely.

[PointYBagelS]

Even if it was a roleblock that still doesn't clear you.

[PointYBagelS]

The "scum rolestopper" is possible but unlikely, and RIP can of course be lying.

UNVOTE:

Nero is the only scum that makes any sense to me. I don't think Vamp is, not really rubicon either. Others are mostly confirmed or confirmable.

VOTE: Nero Cain

Unfortunately peacebringer can't be confirmed without another visiting role, but I'll hold off for now on voting him, he seems town.

[PointYBagelS]

Drixx are you caught up yet? The deadline is approaching and another opinion would help a lot.

[PointYBagelS]

Well, this lovely wagon just about confirms that Rubicon or Nero is the scum.

Don't be a sheep, elusive. That's how scum win.

[PointYBagelS]

When I flip town what are you going to do?

[PointYBagelS]

When I flip town what are you going to do?

Hey Rubicon I still want an answer to this.

[PointYBagelS]

Who is that?

[PointYBagelS]

In hindsight I should have pressed RIP a lot harder on his inconsistencies. His reaction when I said either he or Nero was scum was horrible. There's also the problem of a 2 shot cop saving an investigate for night 4, which seems like a bad plan in general. It just seemed too obvious, so I thought a real scum wouldn't have told such an unbelieveable story.

It all worked out though I guess. gg.

[PointYBagelS]

Really? There's another scumtell I guess. Claiming to have used 2 shots and not being clear about what they were.