Open 53: Near-Vanilla - Game over!

[neko2086]

Hello, I should be able to get a good reread done fairly soon. In the meantime, if you have any questions for me, ask away.

[neko2086]

Ok, did a reread, made some notes. Here are my initial concerns. Sorry for the length, have lots to say.

Skitzer-- pg 4, randomly asks OpposedForce who he thinks is most suspicious. I'm not sure what it is exactly about this that makes me nervous. This could very well be a buffer making sure suspicion stays elsewhere, posting to seem active. Note he doesn't do this, himself.

JDodge does something similar. He asks

Will everyone please state whether or not they think a DS policy lynch is a good idea. I will answer this question after everyone else has.

This isn't incredibly impressive. Again, asking others to do something he won't do himself. He says he will later, but that seems a bit convenient. He could make a call after he gets the general opinion. What's worse, though, is that he never does make a call. Unfortunately, it appears that he may not be coming back, so who knows if we'll get an explanation.

TSN says

I'm not sure what to do about DS. Ignore him? Lynch him? I can't get any kind of an actual read on him, and maybe that's the point. If so, I sort of want to lynch him on principle.

Besides the policy lynch idea (which doesn't seem like a very pro-town idea), it shows that TSN wants to hear the general opinion on DS before casting his own judgment. It sounds like he wants to go with the flow (Shanba spoke about this quite a bit already).

He goes on to say on pg 5

I don't actually want to policy lynch him. I've just had two day 1's in a row with the clown, and I'm tired of him.

This sounds vaguely like an argument for a lynch regardless of whether he's town or scum because he's annoying. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted this.

Another quick note on skitzer--he says on pg 5

For all we know, anyone could be a doc.

This is a classic example of active lurking--posting for the sake of posting without contributing anything useful. Active lurkers make me very wary, thus,

FOS: Skitzer

.

TSN later has this to say about shanba and phate taking opposite sides

in my own defense, I will point out that I'm not the only one refusing to take a position

So, riding the fence, being wishy-washy, and going with the flow are considered townie behaviors? I would agree that hasty voting is best avoided, generally, but it is incredibly important to be critical.

FOS: TSN

Pg 7, quick note: RW starts to make me uneasy when he backs of shanba easily

TSN, after saying he'll keep his vote on RW without explaining why and asks everyone to discuss it, says

Running the substantial risk of pulling a DS, I did something slightly unusual in the hopes of sparking discussion.

DS was consistently inconsistent, meaning he made very deliberate unusual moves in order to get some sort of reaction (or maybe it's just a scum gambit, but I highly doubt it). You, on the other hand, have decided to just jump into this role, using DS's behavior as an excuse. I'm not particularly impressed.

TSN later says (unrelated to previous quote)

Well. . . we could lynch an inactive player.

IMO, lynching before all players are active is usually a bad idea. lynching an inactive player is a terrible idea as much less information is gained.

An active lurker, as I've stated before, is much more dangerous than an inactive. Thus, Crub, for instance, who has posted very little of substance, would be a better lynch than an inactive. An even better thing, though, would be to hear something from Crub first.

Final note--RW says

to all the people who are voting for me, i think it says something to my innocence that I'm still here posting and defending myself when it would be so gosh-darn easy for to slip into lurking and let the whole thing blow other.

posting for the sake of posting does not make me feel better about you (see above).

FOS: RW

These, of course, are initial thoughts and notes, and as I do more rereading I may catch something I missed before. I'll also have specific questions for people as well. A good start would be for TSN, though. He sticks out the most.
Do you have any opinions of your own that you are willing to share, TSN?

[neko2086]

Contribution from Crub=good, but I need to argue something, here. VI or not, I am of the opinion that it is never excusable to lynch a townie. This, of course, is debatable, but I just think that "well if we're right, yay, and if not, oh well, they weren't helpful" is not and should not be a dealmaker when considering a VI lynch.

I'll admit I haven't been looking at dates of posts, so if there are timing factors I may not have considered, as Crub and TSN suggested, I'll look at those again. I think active lurkers can be picked out, regardless. As for TSN, I can see how you would want to get discussion going, but I'm not sure that would be the best way to go about it... For example, I just FOSed three people and two of them have responded within a couple hours. Anyway, that's all I had for now, but I'll be watching you.

Had a comment for RW, but I'll wait.

[neko2086]

I was just curious if you were going to react to JDodge's vote in any way.

My only comment was that your lynch is not inevitable, so you might do yourself a favor and chill out a bit, which, it appears you have momentarily.

I assume JDodge will explain his vote at some point. I'll be disappointed if he doesn't.

[neko2086]

RW= RossWilliam
bandwagon= when a bunch of people are voting for a person
atm= at the moment

I would suggest reading through the wiki-- there's a newbie guide you'll want to read. It also has common abbreviations on the site. I'd also recommend reading through another game. Read a finished one so you can see how things work. You should probably also join a newbie game. They're designed to help new players get a handle on games.

Afterwards, if you could read through this game again and provide some input on what has happened so far, it would help get things moving here again.

[neko2086]

RW, you could have gone completely bezerk. Scum will often lash out if they're being bandwagoned, especially if they're new. I was waiting to see if that's what you would do, and I suspect JDodge may have had the same intentions, though his motives are not very clear.

[neko2086]

no, but your predecessor did, so you are technically voting unless you unvote.


TSN:

He's been a little too buddy-buddy for my tastes.

Who do you see Ross buddying up to?

[neko2086]

Har har. Nice to see you again, Korlash.

I'm not seeing the Shanba-TSN connection, but if you can develop it, that might be an interesting discussion.

As far as DS goes, your first point seems mostly valid except that whether or not DS is really trying to claim doc should probably not be discussed. I'd rather leave that as vague as possible so that the scum don't have any leads one way or the other. Also, this looks familiar:

I really don't want someone like you in this game least you ruin it more.

Is this the "let's lynch him regardless of whether he's town or scum because he's not helpful" argument? Neko is never impressed by such arguments.

Argument 3 I can maybe see. Arguments 2 and 4 are not very strong. But, I will say, that I agree completely with your two FOS points at the end. I may have discussed this before, but I think it's important to understand. The only thing that makes DS's play

somewhat

valid, IMO, is that he consistently played the village idiot, which can in some cases draw out opportunistic scum. What I've seen other people doing, though, is using that play as a precedent for more unaccountable, capricious voting and other bizarre behavior. If we keep allowing that for discussion's sake, we'll end up in a situation in which the scum can do the most blatantly scummy things and just say "discuss..."


Crub: I'd also like to know what the motive is behind your vote. How are you sure the other three are not scum (true, you haven't said that you are, but you haven't really given us much to work with, so I'm assuming this is what you believe until you state otherwise).

We should get Sly to replace in here (jk).

[neko2086]

Mod:

Can we get prods on Phate and Klebian? Also, how's the search for replacements going?

Korlash, I'd be interested to see what you could come up with on Shanba. I don't see anything particularly scummy about his play so far, but if you see something worth discussing, let's hear it.

[neko2086]

And the way I see a VI is way to harmful to town now, later, endgame, etc.

See, Korlash, this sounds so much like you want to lynch him whether he's town or scum. In the game we just finished, you did the same thing as scum and got a townie lynched because he was going to be 'too dangerous to have in the endgame.'

FOS

for suspiciously familiar arguments

[neko2086]

Looks like we just need one more replacement.

Welcome, MelodyMan. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Killa Seven, now would be a good time to start getting input from you. Who strikes you as town, who strikes you as scum, etc.

From what I can see so far, TSN and Korlash are towards the top of my scum list for reasons already stated. RW seems like newbie town atm, but he could also be newbie scum. Thus, the 4 on the RW wagon make me a bit nervous. I would agree with Crub that there is probably scum on that wagon somewhere, and seeing how none of them gave much, if any, reasoning, it would pretty much give the scum a free pass (hey, all four of us can't be scum, right? so if they didn't give any reasoning, why should I?). On the other hand, because it's so likely at least one of the four is scum, that makes the townie(s)(though I highly doubt all three scum would be dumb enough to join the same wagon like that) on that wagon an easy target, so Crub could very well have randomly picked someone, or, if he's scum, he could have "randomly" picked a townie. For now, though, Crub seems more town.

Skitzer has been very lurky, and that makes me nervous. He hasn't really done much this whole game that would suggest he's town. But, he hasn't really dropped a lot of scumtells either, though I did have some minor points against him initially. For now, he's toward the top of the scumlist.

I need to hear from a few people before I place my vote, so let's keep talking, everyone.

[neko2086]

Sorry, I don't see what you're getting at, TSN... K7 is saying Korlash is desperate to get someone lynched, which wouldn't be a good thing. Now, are you saying you're also desperate to get someone lynched? I don't see what you're trying to tell K7 and if it's supposed to help you in any way. I'm really confused. I think I'm not getting something here...

[neko2086]

And what reasons are those? That I always look scummy? sorry i don't remember anything you ever really sad about me. Or TSN for that matter... But who knows...

I've already stated these, but since klebian doesn't seem to have seen them either, these are my biggest problems with you two:
For you, you like to advocate lynches regardless of whether they're town or scum, because you don't want them in the endgame.

For TSN, used a similar argument against DS, also for suggesting lynching an inactive.

Neko, you earlier noted that you had a comment for RW but you don't seem to have made it. (Or was it just regarding his reaction to jdodge's vote?)

My only comment was that your lynch is not inevitable, so you might do yourself a favor and chill out a bit, which, it appears you have momentarily.

This question need not have been asked.

Also, I'm not sure why the RW wagoners make you nervous when you say he could be newbie scum as well as town. And the rest of your post sounds a lot like random gibberish, with unclear reasoning towards your conclusion that crub seems more town.

OK, The wording might have been awkward, but what I'm saying is that RW is most likely newbie town, therefore the wagon on him likely contains scum after an easy target. Crub, still not sure about. He seems to be a proactive player so far, so I'm leaning toward believing he's town. I will say though, Crub, that I would like to know what it is about klebian's post that suggests something about his alignment to you.

MM, I'd also like you to share your thoughts in at least a little detail.

[neko2086]

I don't know if you noticed, but nobody on the RW wagon really explained themselves, so saying that the fact there's a wagon on RW point to him being scum is not really justifiable in that context.

[neko2086]

Welcome Justin. We look forward to hearing your thoughts on everything.

Korlash, your votee has been replaced. Do you still like your vote where it is?

[neko2086]

That is such better avatar for you...

I changed it just for you

Anyway, on to more important things...

PS: there is no more evidence to be had, so we're all good

I'm not sure what you mean by this, exactly. Are you saying that we won't get any more evidence today or that we've already examined everything we have up to this point, or something entirely different? There's always something we could have missed.

Like lurkers, for instance. Phate hasn't posted in a week, and the last time he posted was after a prod request I made, and he assured us he was here and watching Korlash. He didn't contribute much afterwards. JDodge hasn't posted for 2 weeks, and his last post was his scarcely explained vote.

Mod: prod JDodge

please. Phate, I assume you're still around?

[neko2086]

...and suddenly the RW wagon disbands as quickly as it was formed. I really don't like the way TSN is jumping off so quickly and echoing other people's reasons. I think he is probably a good lynch candidate, but I think a better place for my vote now is

Vote: Phate

He obviously has been paying attention to the game, but choosing not to participate unless it's pointed out that he hasn't posted in awhile. Even then, he doesn't say much. He jumped on the RW bandwagon for no reason, and jumps off with a less-than-impressive excuse.

[neko2086]

Hm, yeah, I seriously doubt anyone would try to use that as a hammer excuse. But, I think the point he's trying to make is that too many people are using that excuse to vote. I've made a similar argument recently, about the "discuss" thing.

Justin Playfair, have you had a chance to reread yet?

[neko2086]

I wasn't necessarily agreeing with him, just trying to possibly clarify what he said, since you seemed to have missed the point.

But, if you need an example:

I was hoping to provoke some responses or draw some opportunism.

I personally don't see anything inherently scummy about this. What

I

have a problem with is when people vote for no reason (the "discuss" thing I mentioned earlier. What I like less is when, after being pressured for their reasonless vote, they still refuse to give a reason.

Whether Phate's reason here is any good is debatable, but at it's a reason nonetheless. Unfortunately, it still appears that he's only contributing enough to get by. He's given us something, but it's not much. When he starts contributing something significant/meaningful/helpful/etc., I'll consider moving my vote.

[neko2086]

Good response from Phate
Better response from Korlash
I assume shanba will provide some reasoning for that vote at some point. If not, I'll be extremely disappointed. I assume you're well aware that this exactly what I was talking about just a few posts ago.

Korlash, you seemed interested in what I had said earlier. Was there anything in particular you wanted to discuss or have your questions been answered?

[neko2086]

You could really figure most of this out if you just read through the last couple of pages, fyi.

The excus

e

in question (the one RW talked about) is that when asked why someone votes for another person, they say that it was to get a reaction.

This is not something that I argued myself, rather clarified for you. See post 320 for more details.

For your last question, see post 218. It was prompted by something you had said, interestingly enough.

I'm still not sure what you had hoped to get by shifting discussion to this.

[neko2086]

We also need to hear from Justin, k7, and skitzer. Everybody ought to be voting by deadline to get as much info as possible.

[neko2086]

Good to hear from you, Justin. I think you have some very valid points on TSN, but I'm wondering if you think his vote on melodyman is justified or not. Do you think he is just another victim? And do you feel RW is newbie town as well?

Skitzer, it seems to me like you're saying you don't feel the need to contribute today. If melodyman is your biggest suspicion, would you care to outline why?

Shanba, I'd still like to hear some reasoning for your vote.

Where is Melodyman anyway? He ought to have something to say by now.

Mod:

can we get a prod on him?

[neko2086]

Um. Wow. Apparently Phate will contribute to discussion when agitated.

I have to say, if we weren't going to criticis

e

people, then what would we be doing? What is your idea of scumhunting, Korlash? Every action in this game should be considered critically.

I do agree that it is hypocritical to criticise somebody for something you've done yourself, but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. I initially didn't see Phate as contributing much of substance, but now he appears to have something significant to say. We'll see how long that lasts.

unvote: Phate

for now.

Nice to see you back, JDodge, but do you have any thoughts you'd like to share with us. Like, helpful ones?

I don't like having to drag responses out of people only to get half-assed ones. Skitzer doesn't appear interested in helping the town in any way.

FOS:

Phate, JDodge, and Skitzer for being our least helpful players thus far. I feel strongly that at least one of them is scum.

Melodyman and K7 are working their way up there, but I'm feeling more newbiness off of them than anything else. I expect much more from them, though.

[neko2086]

I see. Well if that will consitently be the case, then perhaps I can work with that.

[neko2086]

And then…

Neko286 wrote:
Good response from Phate



Are you seriously considering pushing for a day one lynch on Phate? If not why is your vote still with him? I would be interested in reading your overall view of his play.

What you must also understand about this comment is the context behind it. RW complained about there being no activity, and Phate pointed out that complaining isn't enough, rather one should contribute. I liked that comment. But then I said

Better response from Korlash

Korlash pointed out that it was odd for Phate to be talking about being active when he himself hadn't been very active all game, which is pretty much the basis for my former vote. At that point, I felt my vote should stay on Phate, but after recent developments, I think I need to talk a closer look at the other lurkers. Sorry I wasn't so clear on all that.

Korlash, please be aware that I'm not necessarily dimissing you as town, even though I'm pretty sure you're not the lynch for today. You never cease to perplex me, so I'll be watching you closely.

[neko2086]

I'm still waiting to hear from JDodge.

mod:

Killa Seven should be prodded.

Melody man doesn't seem very interested in this game. I can't commit to a vote yet, but I will soon, and I think my position is pretty clear.

[neko2086]

so, you have no interest in helping the town? I'm just asking you to contribute something. Anything.

vote: JDodge

until I have any reason to believe you're town.

[neko2086]

Do you have any reason to believe he is town?

[neko2086]

I feel a bandwagon on him is justified. He's made no real contribution to this game. There are other lurkers that trouble me, but JDodge worries me the most at the moment. Again, I'd ask you, do you have any reason to believe he is town? If somebody can answer this, I'll reconsider.

That said, it's always interesting to see who will join a wagon. To be honest, I was a bit surprised when Korlash and k7 joined so quickly.

[neko2086]

I haven't played in any games with JDodge, so I'll probably have to do a quick meta. I was hoping the bandwagon that formed would put at least a little pressure on him to contribute in some way, but that doesn't appear to be happening.

JDodge, I'm not sure you ever explained why you think RW is scum. Did I miss it?

[neko2086]

There were a lot of people commited to a JD vote

...including you, in case you forgot...


Shanba, were you happy with your vote at deadline?


Also, just for the record, I'm not a big fan of blanket FOSs. I'd be incredibly surprised if there

weren't

scum on the mmlynch, but Ross is right, hindsight is 20/20, and at this stage of the game, it is way too easy to say that you

know

somebody is scum. Also, k7, before you posted the part you just quoted, you had said

im here tryna decide who to vote for melodyman or tsn

Then your next post you voted JDodge, your reasoning being

fuck it.

It was only after then that you began to seriously look at JDodge as possible scum. So, I don't think it's entirely accurate for you to say that you

knew

he was scum.

[neko2086]

...including you, in case you forgot...

And? Whats your point here?

It almost sounded like you were trying to suggest Kleb was scum for being on the jdodge wagon. Just wanted to remind you that you were on it, too. I think I missed your point though, so disregard it.

So, I don't think it's entirely accurate for you to say that you knew he was scum.

I'm sorry where did he say that?[/quote]

Ah. k7 said he knew mm was town. He also seems convinced that jdodge is scum. I mixed them up a bit and thought k7 said he knew jdodge was scum. Nevertheless, my point is really the same. k7 is basically saying 'i knew mm was town and jdodge was scum,' and I was simply pointing out that mm was one of his suspects not too long before his jdodge vote, and that his jdodge vote wasn't that strong to begin with.

[neko2086]

I would like to ask you when your vote on JDodge became a hard vote to lynch, if it ever did...

I really had no reason to remove my vote. Neither he nor mm were contributing to the town at all, but there really wasn't anything pointing to mm being more likely scum than jdodge (of course, that's what happens when people don't participate, unfortunately). The longer I'm on this site, the more I realize that not everybody feels the same way as I do about contributing.

...and what the votes that were attracted to that wagon have told you.

The wagon came in a couple waves. The first, after my initial vote, was Korlash, who gave little reasoning for voting jdodge, and k7, who, as I mentioned before, said "fuck it" and voted jdodge after deciding between mm and tsn. These two seem the most suspicious on the wagon, as they joined early without giving much, if any reason (initially, anyway). The second, being yourself and Klebian, actually seemed justified. You both gave pretty solid reasons for joining, so for the time being, I trust your intentions more than Korlash's and k7's. Though, I can imagine that a scum faced with joining one of two wagons would want to join the less popular one (whether or not it's their partner) so as to not have to be part of a town lynch, so I can't write either of you off as town just yet.

[neko2086]

skitzer, JDodge, TSN, care to share your thoughts?

[neko2086]

Crub, what do you think of Klebian (specifically)? Justin already asked you this, and looking back, I don't think you've ever given any solid reasons for suspecting him.

RW, now that it's D2, is there anything other than gut that is pointing to k7 as being scum? Is it mostly his D2 play that makes you think so?

[neko2086]

How has my play been anti-town?

I don't see how it has been pro-town, really. You've yet to really contribute to this game. If your playstyle is deliberate, what do you feel you have accomplished?

Also, do you have any thoughts concerning the events of D1? Since you really didn't say much D1, I would hope you would have had the chance to make some observations that could potentially help us today. I would also like to know what drove you to your final vote.


Crub, RW has spoken. Did you get the information you were hoping for?

[neko2086]

Generally, I do. I understand that some people act like assholes to try to draw scummy reactions, but unfortunately, it can draw the same reactions from town, so it really doesn't end up being that helpful. In my mind, the town should always be as helpful as possible. Not doing so risks misleading the town, and that should never be allowable to a townie.

Now, if there is signifigant evidence pointing to somebody being town, such as an investigation or something like that, they absolutely should not be lynch because of "policy" or anything like that. But, at this point of the game, I don't feel like we have any reason to believe that you are town. So, I'll ask you again: What do you feel you have contributed to this game? If you believe that not acting pro-town is helping us at all, please share your thoughts. I'd also like you to address my other questions/concerns.

[neko2086]

JDodge, I had questions for you I'd like answered.

K7, Justin had a question for you that you've not answered.

Korlash, earlier you were trying to decide whether to vote for K7 or Klebian. You asked Crub if he could give you a reason to vote Klebian over K7, and since he hasn't revealed anything, you haven't voted. Perhaps you ought to share your thoughts first. Are those still the two you're thinking of voting for? Whom are you more likely to vote for at the moment?

Crub, can you at least tell us what made you think there might be a klebian-shanba connection? Please answer this only after Korlash has answered.

[neko2086]

Much of what I have to say depends on how JDodge responds to my questions/concerns.

Mod

, It looks like skitzer and shanba haven't posted in over a week, so they should probably be prodded.

[neko2086]

ebwop, it looks like shanba is gone for the week, so just a

prod

on skitzer for now

[neko2086]

So, Korlash, at the start of the day, you were debating between klebian and k7, and ended up voting Crub because of tunnel vision? If you believe Crub is scum, what do you think of Klebian now?

Skitzer, you are OK with this? Also, I'm a little surprised you backed down on your FOS due to a syntactical error pointed out by Korlash. You didn't even rephrase it to try to get your concern addressed.

Mod, prod JDodge

please. It's been a week. I don't think I'm the only one that would like to hear from him. If he doesn't have the time for this game, he may need to be replaced.

[neko2086]

If none of those were serious suspicions, whom do you suspect now?

[neko2086]

(AKA only ever prodding me, not people such as Killah Seven and RossWilliam who have been lurking like hell).

To be fair, I've been asking for prods on you as I've been incredibly interested in hearing what you've had to say.

I will contribute more on D2.

I hope so. It hasn't been the case so far, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and the chance to keep your word.

In your experience (although it is limited), what alignment do these "assholes" tend to be?

It seems to be townies trying to get strong reactions out of scum. Like I said, though, they can get the same reactions out of other townies, so I don't find it to be a helpful tactic.

What is your personal definition of "anti-town"?

Anti-town behavior, imo, includes active lurking, misleading town, distracting town, and other behaviors that deliberately hinder the town. I'm looking for intentional play and behavior that is not helping the town. Your play on D1 was not at all helpful. I didn't see you trying to help us find scum. You may not find it easy to pick up any information on D1, and I would agree that it's difficult. I think most people would agree. But, we need to get discussion going on D1, and get

everyone

in on it so that we have information on everyone D2 for discussion. Your refusal to participate, then, severely hinders us.

Doesn't the existance of neutral roles in some games tend to prove the potential existance of a null-tell?

I don't think I ever said there was no such thing as a null-tell. If I find a particular point doesn't point to either town or scum, then I'd say it's a null-tell. That seems pretty common sense to me, but if you have other thoughts on it, I'd like to hear them.

Aside from my lurking (boredom) and lack of content when I did post (more boredom), what exactly have I done that is anti-town?

Again, by

not

making an attempt to help the town, you're hurting us. We need participation from everyone.

Nobody

should be lurking, but unfortunately once one person lurks, others won't feel as bad about it.


Now, I think plenty has happened that can be commented on with a fresh perspective. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you.

[neko2086]

That seems like an incredibly simplified version of Crub's suspicion of you.

Also a possible link with TSN (which is a higher possibility IMO), but I'm not elaborating until I see more.

I'd like to know what this link is. I think I see the shanba link you're talking about, but it seems incredibly weak to me. I hope you have a better one here.

Crub, your case against klebian seems fairly valid, but I have to say that your point in post 277 was a statement that didn't seem to be expecting a response. I can't say that I would have responded to it either, really, just because it would have led to an unnecessarily nit-picky argument. I'd say this is one of your weaker arguments.

Can I just ask what you were hoping to gain by delaying this case against klebian for so long? Was it to see if he would lurk, or to see how he would react?

You don't see the value of not being explicit?

Generally, this is done to gauge reactions. For awhile though, it seemed that you would never reveal your reasons for suspecting klebian, and in that case, how do you expect the town to react? If you're town, and you suspect somebody to be scum, we would expect that you'd want other people to suspect him to be scum as well, and presenting an argument is the only way to do that, imo. Perhaps you have different feelings on this.


JDodge, thank you for responding and contributing. I think after D2 we'll have a better sense of your alignment.

On a related note, killa seven, TSN, how do you feel about your votes?


Korlash, you're avoiding my question:

If none of those were serious suspicions, whom do you suspect now?

Skitzer, do you still think Crub is "trying to help the game"? You didn't see the point on Crub, you asked Korlash why he suspected Crub, Korlash gave you a pretty weak answer ("I don't like Crub's tunnel vision.. And thats about it really..."), and you seemed OK with it. Would you agree, then, that Crub had tunnel vision, and is that helping the game? I'd just like you to clarify your position on Crub, because I'm confused.

[neko2086]

I don't get why you asked someone to answer a question after another

Are you talking about why I asked you two questions in a row? Your position on Crub didn't seem very solid. On one hand, you said you didn't really see a case against him:

I'm not sure I see the big point on Crub. He may have been analysing something that needed this retrospect. If he's trying to help the game, let it be.

but when you asked Korlash why he suspected Crub, Korlash said:

I don't like Crub's tunnel vision.. And thats about it really...

to which you replied "Oh ok." Now, for somebody who thought Crub was trying to help the game, it seems to me that you gave Korlash a pretty easy pass on a, imo, pretty weak argument. I mean, Korlash didn't even elaborate on it.

So, the point in my asking those questions was to see what you

really

think of Crub. Do you still think he's trying to help, or have you changed your mind?

If that's not what you wanted me to explain, then please rephrase your question.

[neko2086]

I was actually going to address k7, but I'm waiting to hear whether he's keeping his vote where it's at or changing it. His decision may affect what I have to say about him.

RW, if you have something to say about k7, though, say it. In fact, you should feel compelled to, because otherwise your vote on him looks rather weak. Also, your asking other people to show him attention makes it look like you want to vote for him, but you'd like somebody else to provide the reasons.

There is debate about Crub because both he and some of the people suspicious of him are acting strange. That's my take on it anyway. I can't seem to get a straight answer from either Korlash or Skitzer, and it took a few of us to drag an explanation out of Crub, thought it's still not clear how waiting so long really could have helped him (whether he's town

or

scum). It's important to dig, ask questions, and keep digging until the situation is clear.

[neko2086]

TSN, can you explain your vote? Earlier, you were ok with your vote on JDodge, but considered voting Crub. What made you switch?

RW, K7, still waiting to hear from both of you. Korlash, I'm looking forward to seeing what you've got to say as your contribution to this game has been lacking.

Klebian, you've spent much of your time defending yourself. You've said you don't believe Crub to be scum, so I just have to wonder who you do believe is scum, or could possibly be scum. Obviously many of us are still in the prodding and poking stage, but I haven't seen any real scumhunting from you. Do you have any comments on anyone other than Crub or yourself?

[neko2086]

FOS:

Killa Seven
Are you ignoring me?

RW, K7, still waiting to hear from both of you.

I was actually going to address k7, but I'm waiting to hear whether he's keeping his vote where it's at or changing it. His decision may affect what I have to say about him.

I think I made it clear I've been waiting to hear from you as well, though you choose to respond to Klebian instead (though it's not much of a response).

Please answer--Are you keeping your vote where it's at or are you changing it?

[neko2086]

Please elaborate. What is "stepping up" to you? It can't be the number of posts, since JDodge has contributed much more today than D1 (and likely more than you). What, then, is it about his posting that merits your vote?

[neko2086]

I'll

vote: TSN

for now. I'm really having a hard time believing that Crub is scum, simply because I don't see how his play could help him as scum. I don't think it helps much as town either, except for the reactions he got from TSN and maybe klebian, though the case against him isn't very solid.

I'd honestly rather lynch killa seven, for reasons I think are pretty clear (if not, just ask). If there is support there, I'll switch, unless he posts soon with content that is actually helpful and answers my questions.

We have a few days, so there is still time to form a different bandwagon.

[neko2086]

k7, I'm getting the impression that you're not actually reading the thread. First, you keep ignoring my questions:

Please elaborate. What is "stepping up" to you? It can't be the number of posts, since JDodge has contributed much more today than D1 (and likely more than you). What, then, is it about his posting that merits your vote?

You never answered

Please answer--Are you keeping your vote where it's at or are you changing it?

This was in reference to

im ok with my vote, ill have to go back and see if anyone else looks more smunny at the moment 2 change my vote

which sounded like it was going to be followed up, but it never was, and I asked twice if you were going to change your vote and you responded by saying

im pretty sure i answered this question, so no im not ignoring you.

which, I'm pretty sure you were referencing the previously quoted post because you then said

anyways, as i said before, i will change my vote when i find someone scummier then jdoge or j steps up, which he hasnt.

So, I asked for a follow-up, and I never directly received one.

My question was answered when you voted TSN, though, and that brings me to the second reason why I'm pretty sure you're not reading this thread:

*sigh*
unvote i guess ima pick one 2 vote for lemme re read real fast i know this is the last day.

Ten minutes later

ok i dont like how tsn earlier in the day had voted for j dodge, and then on page 25 both j dodge and tsn gang up on crub near the deadline, and on page 26 post 638 jdode asks why we are voting tsn instead pf crub, all this seems shady 2 me, i dont feel like quoting it all just go look for your selvs.
vote tsn

First note- you assert that this is the last day, when in fact, there were still 2-3 days left, meaning you have no idea when deadline is, which is not good town play.
Second- Not only is this post very vague, but I can hardly believe that you read through 25 pages in ten minutes and came to an informed and well thought-out conclusion. This sounds terribly like joining a wagon for the sake of joining, without giving it any thought. Only the scum have the luxury of doing this. The town cannot succeed without making well-informed decisions, and the town can't make them by breezing through the thread, ignoring questions, and arbitrarily picking wagons to join.

unvote; vote: killa seven

Just for the record, k7, can you explain why klebian's reasons for voting you are "bull shit"?

skitzer, shanba, it would be wonderful if you could weigh in on the wagons and vote. Deadline is up in a little over a day.

[neko2086]

You think TSN is more opportunistic? He's at least presenting arguments, whereas k7 is just popping in to vote and chat with klebian. TSN at least appears to know what's going on. If opportunistic voting suggests voting without rationale, do you honestly think that k7 is putting more rationale behind his voting than TSN?

Also, my switch isn't sudden and it shouldn't be surprising. I did say that I'd rather lynch k7 if there's support for it. My vote on TSN was partly to test your prediction:

My prediction: if TSN gets to 3 votes kleb will vote me.

I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that. So now, what do you think of klebian's not voting you? My opinion: I think it's not surprising at all. By stating this, you more or less set klebian up

not

to vote for you, so if you were hoping that he would so that you could add to his case, why did you even bother saying it? This seems like one of those things best kept to yourself rather than shared with everyone else because it requires a genuine response rather than a calculated one.

[neko2086]

Seeing as how we're on D3 and haven't caught any scum, any reasoning behind your vote would be much appreciated. Looking back, I didn't really see anything indicating that you were leaning in that direction, so I'm assuming it has something to do with recent events.

Also, did you not know you were going to be gone during deadline?

K7, I'd still like an answer to my previous question: can you explain why klebian's reasons for voting you are "bull shit"?

I think that's a pretty good start for today.

[neko2086]

Shanba, i was looking back at your most recent posts in which your attention was turned more toward Crub. I guess what I'm really asking is if your vote pertains mostly to your previous concerns of TSN, or is there anything new that bothers you about him.

Also, I haven't necessarily narrowed down my suspicions to you and K7, but if it came down between you two, it would be K7 at the moment. I'm having a hard time believing he's doing any scum-hunting.

What irks me a minor bit is that he has played more to aid the town in this game

Skitzer, is this a typo, or, what do you mean here?

[neko2086]

Justin, I thought I made a good enough case to grab one more vote for K7, who I would rather have had lynched than Crub or TSN, and with over a day left, I thought one of the two non-voters might jump on. Unfortunately, they didn't do anything. You're right though, I could have jumped back onto the TSN wagon. I'm not sure I was around in time though.

Question for you: What information do you think we've gained from Crub's lynch? I'm assuming by your first post that you now suspect klebian, but to what extent?

Korlash, are you around at all? It'd be nice to hear from you.

[neko2086]

Fair enough, Justin.

Skitzer, what exactly, do you think K7 has contributed, exactly? How has he been helpful?

Um, where is RW?

[neko2086]

So Skitzer, I just want to make sure I'm understanding you right...
K7 has been scumhunting more than he usually does, and that makes him scummy?

Also, you still haven't shown exactly what he's done to be helpful. You're being very vague. I don't really see any evidence of him doing any scumhunting.

Shanba, I'm not sure I'd call TSN's actions patient. He was voting JDodge following the events of D1, then JDodge votes Crub and TSN follows suit, keeping his vote there for the remainder of the day. I don't see any reason to think it wouldn't be possible for him to be scum looking for an easy switch to a more popular wagon.
If you don't think TSN is scum, though, who would be your next suspect?

[neko2086]

I think it's incredibly interesting, Korlash, that you only pay attention to justin once he begins suspecting you.

Also, if you have anything, like, tangible, that you'd like me to address, please let me know.

Also, this just stood out to me:

any lynch that happens you have to assume is scum run.

Do you think scum wouldn't want to avoid lynches?


I'd still like to hear from Shanba. I'll need to do some rereading of my own though. I think this game has been neglected by many of us.

[neko2086]

Really? I don't remember you ever bringing up these suspicions before. When D2 started, you were debating a vote between klebian and k7, and ended up voting crub, with which you were comfortable all the way through to D3.

If I missed it, please point it out to me, because I've looked back a few times now and I can't find you mentioning

anything

about Justin.

I did find this, though:

Haven't seen much to make me think Crub is scum...

Everyone, including myself, seems to have missed this completely. By this, did you mean you hadn't seen much

lately

to add to your case? Can you clarify what you meant here? It's post 589, p24.

Also, you didn't answer my last question.


On to other matters...
Skitzer, your explanations are still incredibly vague. I think you have just as little idea about what's going on in this game as K7. One, if not both of you, is likely scum, and I'll probably vote one of you today. I've not seen any real efforts from either of you to contribute to the game.

[neko2086]

The case is already there, really. I mean, the K7-alternative was there, a case was made for it, and if you

really

didn't think Crub was scum, you could have changed your vote.

So, what do you think of K7, actually? Do you think he is pro-town?

[neko2086]

Can you explain what the difference would be between what you have suggested will be your course of action today and what happened on day one?

A significant difference is, of course, the amount of time. A D1 lurker is less likely to be scum than a D1-2-3 lurker. I suppose JDodge would be a good example of this.

Justin, you want to lynch based on content. Well, I think we all do. When people are posting w/o providing any content, though, they should not be rewarded by being ignored. I have an incredibly hard time believing that either of them could be town.

[neko2086]

Skitzer, the last time you even attempted to scum-hunt, you mentioned K7 and TSN. Are you leaning toward one or the other? Someone else? What, exactly are you waiting for? Do you have any questions for anyone?

By posting and saying you have nothing to post, you're basically saying that you are

content

not contributing, which is what I just got done explaining is one of my biggest problems with your play.

vote: Skitzer

K7, if you'd like to contribute as well, that'd be lovely.

[neko2086]

Shanba, I see your point now, but looking at the same posts I still see it differently. I would agree that between the time he doesn't appear to suspect Crub and his vote on Crub, there is quite a bit of leeway and question-asking. But, between the time when he

does

begin to suspect Crub and his actual vote, there seems to be a big change in not much time.

Keep in mind that in all that time he doesn't see what makes Crub particularly scummy.

Then he makes a post oversimplifying Crub's points of view. The next post he says he's ok with his vote but is considering voting Crub. The next post,

after

jdodge votes Crub, is a vote on Crub.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I don't really see him building a case toward a Crub vote. I see him thinking there

isn't

much of a case on Crub until the discussion on him picks up a little more and the wagon picks up another vote. That is what looks opportunistic about it rather than "patient."

[neko2086]

This:

Keep in mind that in all that time he doesn't see what makes Crub particularly scummy.

was supposed to say something more like, "Keep in mind that in all that time he

says

he doesn't see what makes Crub particularly scummy."

I wasn't trying to suggest that there

was

something scummy about Crub that TSN wasn't seeing, but rather I just wanted to point out TSN's shift in opinion.

His vote is really hard to interpret. I still don't think he had much of an idea why he was voting Crub when he did. Most of his arguments came quite a bit afterward. Immediately after his vote I asked what brought him to it, and he said

I'm voting crub because I find his play decidedly anti-town, and I don't have such a strong case on jdodge that I'm not willing to switch.

which really isn't providing any reasoning. After that, Crub asks for details, and then he gives some reasoning, which is good, but I can't help but wonder why the details had to be pulled out of him.

TSN, if you'd like to comment on any of this to clear things up, that would be nice.

[neko2086]

jtdyer, are you voting k7 just because RW was voting him?


Korlash,

If you want to say I'm intentionally lurking in this one, then you also have to call me out on my lukng n two other large games, 2 different HM games, and that MTG tourney we ave going on in this place.

I don't know about the others, but I am not in those games. This post seems pretty irrelevant.

[neko2086]

jtdyer, are you voting k7 just because RW was voting him?

[neko2086]

Hmmm, I think that was a lynch... therefore, twilight.

At twilight all talking should stop.

[neko2086]

klebian is certainly a possibility. His vote on skitzer seemed somewhat forced.

jtdyer, your vote, while well placed, was very quick. I'm just wondering if you realized you were placing the hammer vote?

I'll be taking a look into k7 and korlash as well.

[neko2086]

forced is not quite fair...

Sure it is. Even moreso if your main reason for voting for him was to end the day.

[neko2086]

Any suggestions on who/what I should look up first or you willing to let me just do my thing and post back whatever comes up?

You should do something pro-town and not ask for direction...


Eldritch, are you voting Shanba primarily because you think he's most likely to be scum, or because you just want pressure on him?

Also, your predecessor has also not been suspected much. Should someone be voting you as well, then?

[neko2086]

Sorry, I'll try to be more active.

Maybe to get things going again, I'd like a few people to clarify some things:

K7, in your post 766, you actually provided some sort of content, which is wonderful to see. Could you expand on the connections you saw between skitzer and TSN, though? Examples would be nice. Same for TSN and klebian.

Also, you put RW in your scum list because of D1 suspicions. Was there anything afterwards that made you still suspect him? How about his replacement?


Korlash, why do you have no opinion on TSN or klebian? Could you look into them some more and form an opinion?

I don't see why you're giving such a hissy fit when asked to contribute after you asked us to give you some direction. In my eyes, one of two things are happening:
1. You are scum and you just want to know what you can do to make us happy.
2. You are town and you are ready and willing to be manipulated by scum.

Neither scenario is good. So, do some rereads, form some opinions, get some concrete evidence, etc.

FOS

for you.


jtdyer, I have to agree w/ Eldrich on this one. You're vote, while originally seemed to be based off of something, turns out not to be based off of anything specific at all, so it boils down to gut, really. Gut is one of those things that some people feel is a good indicator, and whether you agree with that or not, I feel it should never, ever be used as an argument. You are not going to convince anyone else to vote Eldrich because your gut says so, or because you felt a certain scumminess from Justin's posts, therefore you appear to be voting for voting's sake. Also, perhaps it is an attempt to divert attention from either klebian or TSN.

FoS

for you as well.


klebian, I don't see the link you're trying to make between myself and Eldritch. The fact that we both suspect you? Have I also been voting based on Justin's reasoning?


TSN's post 786 makes me cry inside. I don't even know what to say...

Does the Finger of Absurd Metaphors fall above or below the FOS? Do you suspect Eldritch?

You've yet to provide any reasons for any of your suspicions, from what I can tell. And, since you admittedly voted skitzer because of shanba's reasoning, perhaps now would be a good time to start forming your own opinions.


There, let's get this thing moving again.

[neko2086]

Korlash, I already explained what I meant by acting protown:

So, do some rereads, form some opinions, get some concrete evidence, etc.

In all scenarios in which you are town, it does in fact boil down to option 2. If a townie asks for direction, regardless of intent, they are prime target for scum to pull onto a bad bandwagon. This is why townies typically do not ask for direction--they do not want to be taken for a ride and would rather form their own opinions, not ignoring others completely, but still keeping in mind that everyone else's opinion should be carefully considered and scrutinized.

It appears, then, that you may be scum looking for an easy ride through the game without raising suspicions. The fact that you are being so defensive about it isn't helping.

Thank you for sharing your opinions, but examples/evidence would be nice. It seems you still don't have an opinion on everyone, though.


TSN, quick note--
How is this:

I don't suspect el of being scum, I suspect him of being ridiculous.

different from this?:

D1: Klebian says a skitzer post is dumb, but doesn't vote or FoS him.
Later, klebian says a skitzer post is weird, criticizes it, but doesn't vote or FoS him.
D3: Klebian says he doesn't understand a skitzer point about k7.

Your point is well made and it's certainly note-worthy, but can the same thing be said of you and eldritch? Maybe not to the same extent, but looking back, you've only had one minor interaction with justin.

even if I don't like how freely he doles out the FoS'.

I thought they were well thought-out and well-deserved, myself.

[neko2086]

You've played with me before, I may be an idiot but I have deep down fundamental strategies that end up working provided I get lucky >.>

This made me lol. You were scum when I played with you before.

As far as opinions go, I'll reveal mine when I feel like it.

You appear more and more to have no interest in helping the town today.

This argument about acting pro-town is more than useless here. Suffice it to say that I just want to know whom you suspect and why, emphasis on the why portion.

[neko2086]

Korlash, are you being intentionally useless? Is that your "fundamental strategy?"

Klebian, K7, I had questions for you on the last page that haven't been answered.

[neko2086]

Wow. Short notice, but this game has indeed died down a bit.

jtdyer is looking for direction as much as Korlash is. I wouldn't be opposed to lynching either of them at this point.

I need to do more rereading before I vote. I'd also like to hear more from everyone, especially those I have questions for that haven't been answered...

Everyone ought to be voting before deadline happens as well.

[neko2086]

neko, I find it highly scummy that you would suggest we lynch between the two people "looking for direction."

I find it highly scummy that people are looking for direction. Why are you voting klebian, for example, when you say you're equally willing to lynch eldritch? Is it because others have already provided the arguments? You had at one point (before you asked everyone what we wanted you to do) presented some sort of a case against Justin/Eldritch, and now you’re voting someone you’ve hardly ever addressed in this game?

I understand that we’re on a tight deadline and we can’t be wasting votes, but I would hope you have a good reason for voting klebian other than to follow others’ leads.

second off, if my "lac of contrabution" really does piss some of you off why not do something about it?

You’ve been called out on it, which

is

doing something about it. We’ve asked you to provide input, and instead you go on a tirade that has little to do with the game at hand. At any rate,

we

are not responsible for

your

contribution, so I don’t know what else, exactly, you want us to do about it.

Asking me for my feelings/comments on anything at this point will result in a big... well... a big "you know why" you.

Which is helping the town, how?

I can point out what posts made me latch onto kleb. I can even give you my feelings on what knowing his allignment might do.

There’s no better time to be doing this. Why on earth are you waiting for somebody to ask you?

Vote: Korlash

- because you are waiting to see how you can most easily float through this game
- because you’re being overly defensive when called out on scummy behavior that is nobody’s fault but your own
- because you’re jumping on the easiest bandwagon without providing any reasoning.

At this point, I am perfectly comfortable with either a klebian lynch or a korlash lynch today. If somebody feels a different wagon is more deserving, now is the time to present a case.

[neko2086]

Do you honestly think i choose to play this way and expected to not be called scummy and voted for? seriosuly man...

What are you saying here? That you choose to play this way and expect to be called out on it? What are you hoping to accomplish?

Of course the person still has to be scummy on their own, I would never come to the table with a simple "partners" theory, but seeing as how we can link Skitzer to kleb he is increased in my book.

Looking for scumpairs is indeed very helpful, and there are very valid arguments to connect skitz and kleb, but if you're saying that "the person still has to be scummy on their own," what is it about kleb that looks scummy to you? I mean, you say this but then you don't follow through with it.


Um, we have a little over 3 days left, I believe, so, we need contribution, votes, etc. ASAP

[neko2086]

Of course the person still has to be scummy on their own, I would never come to the table with a simple "partners" theory

So then this is a blatant lie?

[neko2086]

And if you knew me you would know I give a shit when I'm scum ^^

So you

are

being intentionally useless?

Lets jsut say I feel like I'm you from our last game and leave it at that.

I just reread this, and I still don't know what the hell this is supposed to mean. As far as I know, I haven't played any differently in that game than in any other.


K7, are you going to stay on a wagon that is obviously going nowhere?

Has shanba disappeared completely?

[neko2086]

Being intentionally useless

is

scummy, so I'd like to see you both of you lynched, actually.

[neko2086]

I would argue that there was more evidence elsewhere, really. TSN had one valid argument. Korlash said 'yeah, what he said,' basically. jtdyer said 'yeah, what they said.' k7 said kleb was on his scum-list (who

didn't

suspect him at some point?) and gave his main argument as 'kleb ended up getting crub lynched instead of tsn by voting me' (though tsn is now confirmed town, so that wouldn't have really mattered).

Looking back at your own posts, the only reasoning you gave was your second post in this game in which you gave him a FOS, saying

Klebian, since early game he seems to be scumhunting--but does so in a manner that almost encourages some kind of deadline in a game that has none. To do so seems anti-town.

The case against kleb was actually pretty weak. I felt it was much more likely that Korlash was scum due to his sheer lack of cooperation.

(On that note, Korlash--I feel like a dumbass. During rereads I think I figured out what you were talking about yesterday 'feeling like me in our last game.' Makes sense now...)

I believe our last scum bussed kleb and couldn’t come up with an original reason to do so. It would be one of jtdyer, k7, or eldritch. I’m continuing my rereads.


Near, welcome to the game. I look forward to getting a fresh perspective.

[neko2086]

Obviously, if the case was right, it couldn't have been that weak.

This is extremely faulty logic. Scum aren't always the scummiest people around. Especially in this game, there have been townies acting far scummier than skitzer or klebian. Just because the case was right doesn't make it a strong one.

You don't offer an alternative, this is WIFOM--perhaps that's what the scum wanted you to think by not voting Klebian. You see in black/white, this situation is shades of gray.

This does not make sense at all.

What happened to your "I'd like to see both of you lynched" comment to Korlash, which despite you saying, you didn't bother to vote for Klebian, the obviously easier lynch of the two.

Klebian

was

the obviously easier of the two, you're right. He was

obviously

going to be lynched, whether I voted him or not, so I don't see what you're trying to say here. I'm obviously the last scum because I didn't bus my partner when he was obviously going down? The last three votes on the

Korlash made a comment yesterday that, after thinking about it during the night, makes me strongly believe he is pro-town. That's not very tangible for anyone else but us, I know, but at any rate, it is certainly nothing out of 'opportunism.' To make a stronger case in defense of Korlash, though, I would point out that he, if he were the last scum, would probably not have put a dangerous second vote on his partner.

Yes, I hammered my partner. /sarcasm

This is a very awkward statement.

[neko2086]

I like you Neko, please don't take this game too seriously (not that you are, I just like your sense of humour and don't want you to start).

why thanks. I take games seriously enough to win, though, as do most people.

Still, I've got to make a case:

To make a stronger case in defense of Korlash, though, I would point out that he, if he were the last scum, would probably not have put a dangerous second vote on his partner.

Directly conflicts with:

I believe our last scum bussed kleb and couldn’t come up with an original reason to do so. It would be one of jtdyer, k7, or eldritch. I’m continuing my rereads.

No. You fail to see my point. A dangerous second vote is much much different than an inevitable 3rd, 4th, or 5th vote. Korlash's vote held possibly the most weight on the wagon.

This combined with:

There’s no better time to be doing this. Why on earth are you waiting for somebody to ask you?

Vote: Korlash
- because you are waiting to see how you can most easily float through this game
- because you’re being overly defensive when called out on scummy behavior that is nobody’s fault but your own
- because you’re jumping on the easiest bandwagon without providing any reasoning.

At this point, I am perfectly comfortable with either a klebian lynch or a korlash lynch today. If somebody feels a different wagon is more deserving, now is the time to present a case.

Makes your old case on Korlash sound quite stronger than your most recent post.

I know. I thought I had a pretty damn good case and likely caught scum. I know what he was trying to do now, though, so I'm almost sure he's town. I doubt he's pulling my chain on this one.

Furthermore:

So you are being intentionally useless?

That was directed to Korlash, who you seemed to want to lynch on the "utterly useless even if he is Town" grounds--so obviously you didn't think there was much to his case on Klebian either nor much substantial explanation.

By the same logic you suspect K7, jtdyer, and myself, you should suspect Korlash just as strongly.

[/quote]
No. I like to lynch scum who are being intentionally useless, and I do not like it when people try to lynch somebody who is useless "whether they are scum or not." Korlash can vouch for that one, as he sometimes takes that route. If I believe somebody is town, I do not push for their lynch, even if they appear to be completely useless. Please don't straw-man my arguments.

To some extent, I see what you're saying, though. I don't think Korlash had a great argument against klebian, no. But again, vote placement and meta are huge factors here.

[neko2086]

Sorry, I'm here.

First, I hope you all realize that if we mislynch, we're at endgame tomorrow unless the doc blocks the nk. If the doc outs himself and the n3 protection, and we mislynch, the doc will nk'd, leaving us with 1 scum, 1 cleared townie, and 2 uncleared townies.

If the doc keeps quiet and we mislynch, a number of things can happen:
1. doc successfully protects another vanilla: best scenario- leaves us with doc, two protected townies (assuming we didn't lynch the first), 1 scum, and one unconfirmed vanilla. We have two lynches left. Doc claims and outs the protected townies. Auto town-win from there. If we lynched the n3 protection, we'd be left with a 50/50 chance at endgame I believe.
2. scum nk's an unprotected vanilla: second best scenario, as the doc can claim at endgame, out the protected vanilla, and leave the town a 50/50 chance.
3. scum nk's the protected vanilla: doc claims, leaves the town a 1/3 chance.
4. scum nk's the doc: worst scenario out of all, including allowing the doc to claim now. We lose the doc,

and

we lose info on who the doc protected n3 (unless the doc leaves a really good breadcrumb). We are left with a 1/4 chance at endgame.

So, this isn't a good answer, necessarily, but it appears that having the doc keep quiet gives us our best and worst scenarios. Having the doc claim now is better than losing that info tomorrow (and gives us a better chance of just winning the game now and not worrying about all this), but we could clearly do much better. Having the doc keep quiet is a bit of a gamble, but it may be worth the risk. This should be discussed before the doc makes any decisions.

[neko2086]

Welcom, romanus. Good luck with rereads, and with a deadline already in place, hopefully we can hear from you soon.

So, I'd really like some feedback on the scenarios I've presented. If anyone sees that I've missed something,

please

say so, as it may drastically affect our preferred course of action. For the moment, weighing out the options, I say the doc keeps quiet, but I want to know what others think.

[neko2086]

limited/no access until 6/27

[neko2086]

I'm back.

Romanus, Clockwork, thanks for replacing in.

The Doc's info does more than just give us a 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 shot. This is not random. We get INFORMATION. Knowing alignment is invaluable and far outweighs any sort of blindly throwing a dart at a board with the odds being in our favor.

This is true, but there

are

odds to be dealt with, regardless of what information we have. If we do end up in an endgame with only 1 cleared townie (if the doc claims and is nk'd), then the town must discern among 3 people which one is the last scum. If, on the other hand, we can end up with 2 cleared townies (two scenarios give us this possibility if the doc keeps quiet), there are only 2 options for scum, which gives the town a much better chance at winning since there one less distraction, basically.

No, we are not blindly throwing darts, but we cannot forget that if there is an endgame, anyone who isn't cleared

has

to be considered a possibility. There more possibilities there are, the better chance the scum has to cause confusion and win the game.

Increasing our odds of winning isn't about making for a better blind dart toss, but rather for clearing out bad information and bad leads. If we can have one more cleared townie at endgame, that's one less case to consider, and that is

extremely

valuable.

The question is, what are our chances of keeping both the doc and the protected townie alive? I'm not sure they're that great anymore, so, I'm not opposed to the doc claiming now. It won't put us in any better position for an endgame, but it gives us our best chance of avoiding an endgame altogether.



Anywho, I'm leaning more toward Near (clockwork) than EL for the last scum at the moment, mostly because I never saw Justin as a very scummy player. I'll have to reread him a bit more carefully, though.

Also, I'm a bit concerned about Clock's entrance. Asking questions is good and expected, but asking for a summary seems a bit fishy. It's in the town's best interest to reread and come to one's own conclusions rather than ask for someone else's interpretations of the game.

[neko2086]

neko read post 906 from me.

We posted at roughly the same time. You may actually have a good point there, though I think Justin's style was fairly similar to what mine is as far as asking questions goes. I'll take a closer look at the way he interacted with the two scum though, and see if he did indeed act differently around them. It's very possible that I've overlooked it.
The last point of yours I've already noticed, so I certainly agree with you on that one.


CR, the best summary of this game I can give you is this: two scum have been lynched.

Aside from that, you'll just have to reread.

[neko2086]

After rereading JP in isolation, K7's summary is much more accurate than CR's. Justin

did

question both skitzer and klebian, and he did have some strong criticisms for both of them, so to that effect I don't entirely agree that he "left them alone" or "stayed away" from them. Justin

did not

, however, actually vote for either of them at any time, despite being particularly worked up about skitzer at one point. His criticisms may have solely been for distancing.


I don't agree much with CR's assessment of Justin. I wouldn't say he was defending skitzer at all. You've cut out one portion of that post, but if you look at the rest of the post, he is clearly criticizing skitzer's play, and he does so again (even more so) later.

The JDodge vote, I can certainly understand where you're coming from on that. But you have to take deadline crunches into account, and it is always better to be voting rather than not be voting at deadline. So, if it's obvious that there are only two options, and you don't like either of them, you'll choose the lesser of two evils. Since both JDodge and MM came up town, I'd say it's a null-tell.

I agree with your very first point about EL completely, though.

[neko2086]

fyi I'll have limited access for the next couple weeks, but I should be able to post enough to keep up with the game (posting this in all games).

[neko2086]

Thanks for playing EL. Perhaps another time in another game I won't want to lynch you.

I agree with Romanus that it is most certainly worth the trouble of finding a replacement. Unfortunately, there's very little time left, so the replacement, if arriving in time, has very little opportunity to impress us and had better get a good read-through in.

Unless, of course, our

mod

would be generous enough to push back the deadline enough to allow the replacement ample review and argument time? Pretty please? If not, I am likely to vote EL in the interest of ensuring a lynch. It may be worth reviewing K7, though. I'll be sure to post my thoughts on him before the day ends.

[neko2086]

CR, you'll find all my thoughts on EL in rereading--I've posted them all.

As far as you go, it's more of what you've said than Shanba that's made me suspicious, and that's all posted as well. I need to reread Shanba some more yet. I'm also in the midst of revisiting a K7 case, and I'll be sure to post my thoughts, don't you worry.

In the meantime, how about yourself? What are your thoughts so far, other than wishing people would stop talking about the doc (which I agree with at this point)?

[neko2086]

Korlash makes me lol and cry inside all at the same time.

That said, the fact that Justin, EL,

and

Alabaska all voted Korlash (two of which only after being attacked by him) only further points to this being a shady, shady character. El's entrance was troubling enough, but this just pushes it over the edge.

Deadline is quickly approaching, and I don't know when I'll get to post again,

vote: Alabaska

. I feel pretty confident that this is it. I do have one question for you though, Ala… how much have you reread?

I don't know if it's even worth looking into K7 again, but I said I would, and if we do have an endgame, I suppose I'd better get it out now.

I had a case against him earlier that can be looked up if necessary (Apr. 02). Since then, he’s more or less fallen off my radar, but a couple things do stand out. For one, there does appear to be a possible connection between him and skitzer. Skitzer defended k7 a few times for his behavior, calling it “strange,” then finishing by saying his views on him were “semi-positive,” resulting in a final vote on TSN.

K7’s vote on klebian never felt like a very strong one, so it’s a very possible bus vote (again, however, EL’s vote appears the most to be a blatant bus vote).

CR, if you go looking for a case on Shanba from me, you won’t find one, as I’ve said that my concerns on you are specifically from you, not Shanba. Rereads on Shanba point to town, for me, though there is a possibility of a connection with klebian, as he tried to support kleb’s case on TSN. He has also missed a couple deadlines, and it’s not certain whether it’s on purpose or accident. I’d still say town, though, in comparison.

I’ll try my best to keep in touch before deadline arrives. Thanks for replacing, Alabaska! (even though I think you should die today…)

[neko2086]

^Probably not. Does he ever?

I'm down with a Korlash lynch. I'll wait for an updated votecount, to see where things stand. Once that votecount happens, plan on seeing me put my vote on Korlash, unless I change my mind again.

Have you changed your mind again?

[neko2086]

CR--Despite being on V/LA, I've managed to post rather regularly, and I did post yesterday, fyi. If there wasn't so much opportunity for things to get lost in the noise, I'd say you haven't been paying attention.

Taking your time to vote is a good idea, but do realize that deadline is almost up, and it's in our best interest that you (and everyone) be voting.

[neko2086]

Defending Korlash is probably one of the most difficult, painful things I've ever had to do. He should have just claimed, but, if we're careful, I think we'll be able to manage.

CR, you

did

know that we were in deadline, right?

I also need to do more rereads, but this is noteworthy--

I predict the doctor is going to die tonight, which will clear someone else.

k7 already pointed some of this out, but this strongly implies knowledge that there would indeed be a night. There was no "if" here. It was "the doctor

is going to die

tonight, which

will

clear someone else.

Now, if you had felt pretty certain that AJ/EL/etc. was town, that might explain it, but he was #2 on your scumlist as of post 971. I need to reread you and shanba.

I'm not quite ready to dismiss k7 as town, either. I felt pretty strongly that he may be scum at one point in this game. I'll have to revisit that and see if it makes sense or not with more recent events.

[neko2086]

I keep thinking that Romanus replaced shanba but he replaced jtdyer/RW. CR replaced shanba.

Looking back, Shanba was the only person not voting Jdodge or mm D1, missed the D2 deadline, was on the skitzer-lynch D3, but then missed the D4 deadline, and now CR missed the D5 deadline. Have they purposefully missed the deadlines? I'm not sure, but I'm not thinking so. If Shanba had missed the D3 deadline or was on anything but the skitzer-wagon, I'd be more inclined to believe so. Though, kleb bussed skitzer and shanba could have done the same, and shanba did defend kleb a little on D4, so I'm finding him a very difficult read.

The way kleb's lynch went, it seemed like he was being bussed since there was very little reasoning given for the wagon. Again, shanba wasn't on it, but he did lay the seed for it, so I have to wonder if he would have bussed both his partners, and without actually voting for the second one. I'm tentatively putting CR on the bottom of my list.

K7 actually appeared to have some reasoning for voting kleb, but it wasn't very convincing. He says it was because he caused crub to get lynched rather than tsn, but it turns out that it wouldn't have mattered. On the other hand, he may have wanted Crub, specifically, to get lynched rather than TSN, so there may some merit to k7's case. It would still make sense as a bus-vote, though.

Romanus' predecessors were both wishy-washy players, and jtdyer's vote on kleb was very unconvincing. Rom's play yesterday, as already stated, is very disconcerting, and he hasn't really said anything yet today, as if waiting to see what everybody else does before he acts, so I would put him at the top of my list atm. I'm also not sure I buy his not picking up on the breadcrumbs, but if CR didn't pick up on them either (and obviously EL and AJ both missed it), then it may not have been as obvious as I thought, though a simple reread shows a very distinct and unusual interaction between myself and Korlash. I'd be very surprised if everybody but k7 missed it.

Clearly, though, there is reason to suspect each of you, so we'll need plenty of discussion today to make the right choice.

[neko2086]

What I meant by going to sleep was that day was over, that's all. Whether we won or not, it would be night since the end of day is the lynch.

There wouldn't be a night, actually. Night only happens when there will be another day, and scum and power roles need to make choices. If AJ were scum, it would've just been over, like

vote: AJ

Mod- Yay, town wins!

Game over


This very well could have been an honest mistake, but combined with the rest of your statements, it does sound like scum knowing it's not over yet. The statement that is most telling to me is "the doctor is going to die tonight" part. The IF that came afterward somewhat accounts for it, but it seems like an afterthought.

I'm blaming Korlash for all this nonsense. His doctor crap just confused everyone and took our focus off of scum hunting.

I wish he would have just claimed as well, and I really felt like just outing him, but I felt certain that AJ/EL was scum. Anyway, blaming him isn't going to help us at all right now, so shifting attention to him is not a good plan.

I do not like the fact that CR was able to cruise and not get a vote down or even declare himself. At best -- anti-town. At worste -- Scum.

This I mostly agree with. Considering this:

I was mulling over who I would vote during the night

CR hadn't committed to anything by his last post, and apparently he didn't feel he needed to make a decision until he would vote right before deadline. Part of being a helpful townie is having a well-informed vote by deadlines, which CR may indeed have been trying to do, but the other part, which CR doesn't seem to have concerned himself with, is adding to discussion well before deadline so that

everyone

has heard every point of view and can make the best collaborative decision.

k7, what do you think of the possibility of CR being the last scum? I don't think I've heard you say much, if anything, about him.

[neko2086]

Rom, is your suspicion of CR based primarily on his skipping out on the last deadline? You said that Shanba "pinged pretty hard" for you. Anything specific?

Also, what do you think of k7?

k7, I still have a question for you.

CR, looking forward to hearing anything from you.

Let's not let the discussion die at endgame, ok?

[neko2086]

I don't remember seeing k7 ever try to pull the newbie card. I'd say his play has improved considerably, and he's been around awhile now, so I haven't considered him a newbie for some time. Maybe that's just me, but I think you're misrepresenting k7 there, CR. If you have some examples to prove otherwise, though, that'd be nice to see.

[neko2086]

Same here. I'm especially interested in hearing more from Rom. Also, were you still rereading rom?


I guess I do have a couple notes on your k7 reread:

I never liked his "I knew mm was town," and FOSing an entire bandwagon is lazy at best unless there is a specific reason to suspect each one.

His interactions with kleb and skitzer are interesting, especially considering that skitzer went after tsn saying that his notes on k7 were "semi-positive," and then there was this:

What irks me a minor bit is that he has played more to aid the town in this game, which maybe just experience showing, but it's something I want to keep my eye on.

which is so backwards, it just blows my mind.

Then again, I think klebian tried to use a similar argument, and that may well be how this was brought to my attention in the first place. So, that makes me lean a bit more toward town on that issue.


That aside, I'm still not entirely convinced by his kleb vote. He was on his scum list- well OK. He got crub lynched- didn't really make a difference, but I suppose at the time that wasn't certain. Anyway, jtdyer's vote wasn't any better. All things considered, I would still put k7 as more town than rom, but I'm still waiting to hear more from him.

[neko2086]

First of all, since he's missed it once.
Rom- if when it was apparent that the doctor was not going to out himself, why did you not hunt for those crumbs to prevent us from lynching our doctor? I fail to see how that is pro-town.

I don't see why the scum

wouldn't

be looking for it. Also, we don't necessarily know that he (or you, for that matter) didn't actually know Korlash was the doc.

The time for explaining theories is over.

Why? Is there a deadline?

I'm suspicious of everyone.

Apparently not, considering this next statement by you:

I really don't have anything else to contribute.

What you call "casting suspicion" is also known as "discussion." And I don't know what kind of endgame you play as town, but I've never heard of playing an endgame without a great deal of discussion.

You appear to have a bad case of tunnel-vision. After expecting a read on k7 from you, you say

K7 just looks townie to me.

This is endgame, and you don't appear to care about considering other possibilities. This looks very much like scum focusing in on a target and trying to wrap up a win. Stopping discussion and prompting brash votes is

exactly

what the scum need to do to win and that is

exactly

what you are doing in these last few posts.

Very close to voting you, but I still feel there is more discussion to be had.

[neko2086]

Rom, this was the votecount before you hammered:

Alabaska J - 3 (Korlash, killa seven, neko2086)
Korlash - 2 (Alabaska J, Romanus)

Not Voting - 1 (ClockworkRuse)

4 votes were needed for a lynch, so for him to be lynched, CR would have to have voted him, along with one other person. Neither k7 nor I were going to do it, and obviously Korlash wouldn't hammer himself, so Korlash was never in danger of being lynched. The best option was to hope the scum wasn't going to figure it out (even though it was a slim chance) so that we could prepare for a better endgame, if we were to have one.

[neko2086]

Hm, deadline isn't good.

I don't like giving k7 an easy pass, but I haven't been able to find enough evidence to be convinced he's scum. All things considered, I just don't see it.

Between rom and clock, it's really hard to tell. CR has been much more active today than yesterday, and his missing the deadline is incredibly troubling, especially considering that Shanba missed a couple deadlines as well. Missing deadlines, though, seems like a very strange strategy, though. 1, ok, but several, I don't see how the payoff would be great enough to take a risk like that. I'm more inclined to believe it's just unfortunate coincidence.

Rom, I've found myself agreeing with somewhat today, but looking over the game, it makes the most sense to me that rom would be the last scum. The awkward statements at the end of yesterday, jtdyer's unexplained vote on kleb (an easy bus), RossWilliam's failing all over the place. Compared to shanba/CR, I'm pretty certain he's the scum.

vote: Romanus

I'm not completely sold on CR, and we still have some time left, so I'll be double-checking possible connections.

Also, k7 needs to get some input in here before I start doubting myself.

[neko2086]

I'm not thinking as much about the doc thing as I am the language that suggested a knowledge that there would be another day. Every time I get to that section, it always stands out, and you haven't been able to completely account for it.


An extension would probably be good, but I wouldn't count on getting one, k7. What, for you, makes you think CR is more likely to be scum than rom? Is it mostly because of his lurkiness yesterday?

[neko2086]

I should have just outed him.

Now I'm confused. What do you mean by this? I thought you didn't know Korlash was the doc...

[neko2086]

Just got back from work. I have to say I don't like the way k7 is lurking this out, either, but clearly he simply hasn't been around. He would have hammered by now if scum (and if paying attention). Still, I would hope he'd like to give some input, seeing as how it's endgame and all...


I'm still feeling more confident about a rom-lynch than a CR-lynch. I don't like Shanba's and CR's missing deadlines, but I don't see scum using that as any sort of strategy, so I have to believe it's merely coincidental. I don't see Shanba as the third part of the scum trio, either, whereas I can with jtdyer and RW. It just has to be rom. If k7 has strong reasons to think otherwise, I'd like to hear it.

[neko2086]

You're right, he is posting elsewhere. Surely he's at least

looked

at this thread. If scum, he'd have hammered, so, I'm not worried about it in that respect. I wish he'd post here, though.

[neko2086]

woot!

[neko2086]

Sorry for using you Korlash, but I have to admit, it felt

good

I have to admit though, that there was no plan to forego a night kill. We were planning to nk Justin Playfair, and, I just missed it (sorry, kleb!). It was only by a massive stroke of luck that Korlash happened to protect me that night. Thinking that I was done for after kleb was lynched, my strategy night 4 was to come out of it in the morning saying that I figured out what Korlash was talking about (which I did when I was still trying to get him lynched), and then have him defend me since scum wouldn't have let a doc survive the night, etc, which is pretty WIFOMy, but it might have worked. So, I possibly could have had Korlash on my side even if we did make the nk.


Rom, I didn't think you played badly. My case against you really did boil down to semantics, but it didn't matter as I could pretty much get away with anything at that point.

[neko2086]

Really? I thought for sure I was. Well then I'm glad Korlash never told anyone differently

Thanks for modding, btw.