Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!

[Skruffs]

Hey there guys
I'm replacing Sangy
I had a horrible accident involving my jaw and a dentist monday morning, so until the pain relievers wear off, I will prboably *not* be of much use, but I am here.

Tally ho, wot wot.

[Skruffs]

Snaps : Why would you assume it was a paranoid doctor... and not, just, say, a normal jailkeeper?

[Skruffs]

But why is there teh assumption that the investigation failed anyways?

It all depends on the mod. Some mods only have Guilty results - a "No result" can mean that the player is innocent, or that the investigation failed.

Of course, BooKitty could also be a Neutral player, like a survivor, or whatnot, and sometimes those dont' show up.

Nice to be here everyone.

Xyl is an awesome player, if this ist he Xyl from IRC-chat. In IRC chat, xyl Always dies n1, unless he's scum. My guess is that the SK got him, if this forum reflects IRC chat in any way. Either that or a vig felt Xyl was being TOO town. Anyways, no way to know at this time, but I would be a bit wary of people saying "Wow xyl had me completely fooled" - I always consider statements like that to be scum covering their tracks.

[Skruffs]

FOS: Xylthixlm

No, not because he voted for me, but because he seems he wants to get the day done with, and skip right onto night. It's best to spend your time and gather the proper information before casting a vote, otherwise you could end up screwing your own team greatly. Why rush things when we've limited time, anyway? Why create a bandwagon just for the hell of it?

Not a scummy move, but something that grabbed my attention.

[OOC: Sorry for not posting in the last couple of days or so. This Christmas sure kept me busy! I've received a Nintendo Wii, along with Super Mario Galaxy, and some other accessories. That'll definitely keep me busy for a while! I'll still be keeping an eye out in this mafia, though; so no worries!]

Interesting. I haven't read through the whole game, just isolated egruntz to see how he 'knew' zyl was scum. The beginning fo the day was him defending no lynching, but in this post, he goes and fosses Xyl for, I guess, stirring up the game? It seems eqruntz's modus operandi is to limit the amount of information. No lynches. No bandwagons. Just... what... night?

This is later enforced when he votes DS for creating Bandwagons. (He votes DS, only fosses Xyl)


Sounds like distancing to me. ^.^

[Skruffs]

I hadn't seen Egruntz' statement before I posted that, But, I was making that post while you asked me that question.

GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE, YA KNOW?

When someone 'thinks' someone is scum, but doesn't push it, and doesn't provide any reasons, that seems scummier to me than someone who pretends not to have noticed someone else's scumminess, which is more like "Good work protecting, Doc!"

[Skruffs]

IF you had explained why you were suspicious of him, maybe. But you said you were suspicious of him for for creating a bandwagon - you later shifted that attack over to DS and kind of ignored Xyl, except to mention that yes, you still suspect him. There's a term for that; when you accuse your scum buddy of something, then move it onto a townie, and then when the townie comes up town, use that to try and 'clear' your partner.

It's not very long sighted in scope, though.

[Skruffs]

There's no reason to lynch bookitty because a claimed cop claimed to not get a result on her.

IS bookitty acting scummy? That's why she should be lynched. (If there is a reason)

[Skruffs]

Anyways, no way to know at this time, but I would be a bit wary of people saying "Wow xyl had me completely fooled" - I always consider statements like that to be scum covering their tracks.

And I consider statements where you outline what a scum might do beforehand thus preventing the scum from doing it a bit of coaching for your partners. Just wondering why you would inform the scum not to do something is all...

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure everyone has already commented anything they are going to comment, IE 'reactions' about Xyl.
Inasmuch, scum have probably already said anything they intend to say.


What did you say about him dying?

[Skruffs]

There's a term for that; when you accuse your scum buddy of something, then move it onto a townie, and then when the townie comes up town, use that to try and 'clear' your partner.

thats one long term... clouldn;t we condense it into one word... like... partner clearing... wait thats two words... dangit...

Distancing?

No.. I think it's more like "False Negatives" or something like that. It happened in Open 19, a nightless game. John (scum) slipped, was tied to Occult (town), the wagon moved from John to Occult... I saw it then and tried to warn everyone but it was too late, Occult was lynched, adn then Battlemage (scum) the next day tried to use Occult's towniness to clear John.

[Skruffs]

Vote : Rishi

That kind of 'in game' knowledge is usually a scum tell, I think!

[Skruffs]

You don't think it's odd that all townies are in green and that the two scum that died are listed in different colors?

I completely agree that the two colors mean different scum groups, or, perhaps, a death miller. However, I am wondering why you , as soon as day started, went to the first page to compare the two mafia deaths and then 'announce your findings'. You made it explicitly clear in your post that you 'found' them, I think, in an attempt to make it look 'accidental'. However, with no out of the ordinary changes in the game, no odd roles, etc, why did you go look at it in the first place?

I'm not fossing yoru findings, i'm fossing your reasoning in finding them.

One question, skruffs:
Is it unlikely, to the point of meriting a vote, that a townie would actually notice the colour difference and suggest that it may be indicative of two scum groups?

I must answer my question firmly in the negative. Colours are often used to differentiate alignments, so it is a perfectly ordinary suggestion that it might suggest different scum groups.

Do you think a townie or a mafia would be more eager to posit that there are in fact two seperate scum groups? I am of the mindset that scum is scum. A mafia of one group seeing another mafia die would of course be inherently curious to go see if the colors were different, if there was a differentiation in the first post, which explains (more likely) why Rishi discovered this. I have no problem 'killing the messenger', in this regard.

I had the same thought about the two different colored mafia, so I don't find that to be a legitimate basis for an attack. I did find it odd, however, that the evidence that really seemed to make egruntz break down was a supposed link with xyl, which may not actually exist if they were in different scum groups.

Mod : Are the color codings in post 1 all accurate?

I like panzer's post. Metaing the mod is always good. However, I'm not discrediting the colors theory, rather the manner in which it was brought up.

Interesting how Antithesis has run wiwth the idea, though. Xyzzy scum cuz he knew there were two scum groups? Clever thinking.

[Skruffs]

Vollkan - I'm not saying it's not noticeable. Did I say that it was too subtle to notice? I didn't. I said that Rishi's post seems to be very carefully formulated to be an 'oh by the way guys look at this'... I'm not saying he should be lynched for it, I'm expressing my suspicion of him.

What I am inferring is that Rishi speculated that it was either the mod scrweing around or that there are two mafia groups. The two mafia groups are inherently more likely; I'm not saying that there isn't; but the comment is phrased in a way to *look* speculative but it really isn't. In fact, with the name of the game, "Minimal Flavor", it may very well be that the mod has in fact used the coloring as the only basis in which to determine which mafia is which.

I'm feeling ruffled, but I think that's a good thing.

[Skruffs]

I stand by my earlier stance. You'll notice that, however, that I'm not attacking people who disagree with me. It's a personal scum tell that I am going to stick by for the time being.

I am guessing by your last paragraph that you are *not*, in fact, in the same situation as Rishi. However, isn't the situation, as you see it, that Rishi, as town, noticed something on the front page? What about your situation is different than his?

Also, noticed you teasing the cop that claimed to have been roleblocked the previous night.

FOS

that's as much a scum tell as someone congratulating the doctor on a successful no-kill. Why would you expect him to have results today?

I'm actually rather surprised that the mafia are wasting their roleblock on the cop; they now have much more of a threat in a opposing gang of mafiates. The cop is as likely to hit one group as the other, the other groups will only either hit each other or town.

NOTE TO SCUM : THE COP CAN HELP YOU AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME, LEAVE HIM ALONE!

Also, I love Panzer but his buddying is creepy.

[Skruffs]

The earth *is* flat. Are you saying that Rishi *definitely* is town, or merely that the means by which I am determining his alignment are in error?

Careful how you phrase yourself, you are slipping.

[Skruffs]

Why are personal scumtells unacceptable in games with you in them?

You reference involved something that is known not toue; the earth being flat; under the that it is their personal opinion and not something they expect others to believe. The two examples don't match up,though. I provided reasoning for why rishi scum would say what he said, you then called my hypothesis a flat earth theory. If the earth might in fact 'be flat', (or in this casse, rishi might be scum), why the unadulterated resistance agaiinst theoretical examinations of his motives??? One clue either leads to anotheer clue, or it leads to a dead end.

[Skruffs]

Maybe I'm just confused. What do you mean by ''objectively justify' ?

[Skruffs]

"I'm not opposed to theoretical examinations - I am opposed to you assuming that he did something which is scummy in the absence of evidence. "

I am explaining why I think it as objectively as possible. You seem to be asking me for a cop claim, which is the only 'evidence' we are likely to find. That's not gonna happen. Sorry. ^.^

[Skruffs]

I started off by saying that Rishi's assertion that it was two scum groups might be from having inside knowledge. He took that into account by throwing out a weak alternative; that the mod 'messed up'. I pointed out that perhaps one of them was a death miller. Apparently you forgot all of this.

I agree that there are two scum groups, IT MAKES SENSE. Rishi's actions struck me. Trash what I say all you want; if I let it get to me, I'm going to stop scum hunting. So thank you for at least being opinionated about my opinions. ^.^


Again, though : What "EVIDENCE" are you looking for?

[Skruffs]

Skruffs - if you are trying to determine my alignment, shouldn't you be asking ME questions? What does vollkan's opinion prove?

...
Is there something wrong with me also trying to determine VOLLKAN'S alignment? Maybe at the same time? I'm only 'one-track hounddog' when I'm sure of myself. Until I have a good lead, I follow several, rustling up new ones as I go.

[Skruffs]

ZING!!!!

[Skruffs]

Side note: Egruntz quoted bookitty more than any other person. Is this because bookitty focused more attention on him than others, or was there something MORE...

[Skruffs]

I feel that Panz is probably town.

BooKitty, not so sure, but I tend to feel she is scum in most games with her, I think. (No offense meant!)

[Skruffs]

I'd be good with a Snaps lynch.
With 18 players I could see two 2 player scum groups. 2 3 player scum groups might be a bit much; the lynch becomes less important than the cross kill factor.

Quick example of what I mean: Assume town always lynches correctly and scum never cross kill or are stopped.
18 with 2 3scum groups:
Tot. # | #Town | #Maf.1 |#Maf.2
18____| 12____| 3_____| 3 Day 1 Begin
17____| 12____| 2_____| 3 Day 1 End
15____| 10____| 2_____| 3 Day 2 Begin
14____| 10____| 2_____| 2 Day 2 End
12____| 8_____| 2_____| 2 Day 3 Begin
11____| 8_____| 1_____| 2 Day 3 End
9_____| 6_____| 1_____| 2 Day 4 Begin
8_____| 6_____| 1_____| 1 Day 4 End
6_____| 4_____| 1_____| 1 Day 5 Begins
At thispoint I'd like to note that at least one scum will make it into end game. Even if scum from group 1 are lynched, reducing the total number of players to 5, the other scum would reduce it to 4 the next night, making it lylo the next day.

A town should never be forced to rely on scum crosskills to win. With three night kills a night, that changes how it works, but a vig is a double edged sword. and we don't even know for sure it's a vig. If it's an SK, then i could see 2 2-man scum groups and the SK, maybe. I unno.

[Skruffs]

I actually agree with Panzer's train of thought earlier up in this page.

Unvote, Vote : Xyzzy

for not getting it.

[Skruffs]

The difference between this and most setups is that the scum are just as interested in scumhunting as the townies. Unless there's some kind of wacky win condition (doubtful), the scum usually need to eliminate the other scum group in order to secure victory. As long as the other scum team lives, a win is impossible.

So, yeah, I could see scum trying to fly under the radar, but most likely, they are actually trying to find scum. That's the tricky thing about this game.

When I was in Big Brother mafia, a mini game with two 3-person scum teams, three or so of the scum were adament in saying that the scum would probably do lots of scum hunting, since there was 'another team'.

It didn't turn out that way; because the scum also want to kill townies. So what happened was that they did SOME scum hunting but mostly tried to stay 'normal', making mistakes and acting like unhelpful townies. They won, too.

I'm always suspicious of people, anyone, who tries to suggest that scum would do things that are beneficial to the town. The scum only care about the other scum in so much as they don't want to lose to them; but on the other hand, as long as there is one scum group being mroe obvious than your own, are YOU going to try and get them lynched or nked?

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, and all that.

So FOS on the Rishi for trying to suggest that the scum are going to be scum hunting. All that does is make people skeptical of those who ARE town and scum hunting. Fos fos fos.

[Skruffs]

Are there any lurkers snaps HASN'T gone after?

[Skruffs]

Are there any lurkers snaps HASN'T gone after?

Rishi: Replaced in late in day one. Pointed out that Xylthixlm and Egruntz names are different colors. As I stated earlier, I don’t see this as a scum or innocent tell as both are likely to point out the difference. However, this seems to be his only contribution to the game.

Actually, yeah. He points out here how Rishi has been inactive, but neglects to call him scummy for it, and later in one of his postcount posts he notes Rishi's low activity levels and voting pattern, but again ignores him in favor of calling out xyzzy and liamcool on their lurking.

THis is interesting. And it doesn't bode well for Rishi, who I've been buttsniffing since day started.

So FOS on the Rishi for trying to suggest that the scum are going to be scum hunting. All that does is make people skeptical of those who ARE town and scum hunting. Fos fos fos.

The game that I played with two scum groups (Twofold Mafia), the scum were fairly active in scumhunting and were desperately trying to get the other group.

You seem to keep pointing the finger at me based on anecdotal experience from other games.

In response to you doing the same thing.

The problem is that you are assuming that all scum are going to play the same way. If scum always played the same, then it'd be pretty darn easy to catch them.

Strangely enough, so are you. And I agree. But scum people do tend to have patterns.

But, you are now saying that the lurkers aren't scummy and the people who are scumhunting aren't scummy. Who's left? Not everyone is town.

Am I? That's a very shallow interpretation of what I am saying. Saying that ALL lurkers aren't scummy and ALL scum hunters aren't scummy is much different from saying SOME aren't scummy or that htey aren't scummy AUTOMATICALLY. Scum usually do one of things:

They Lurk (not very often because lurkers make easy targets for bored town)
They Waffle (Usually the case; support other people's misguided assumptions and encourage infighting between townies.)
They Bus ("Pro-Town Lurking", this is where a scum takes the 'easy way' to looking good and launches a case against a fellow member, ONLY useful in single-scum group games)
or
They Gambit (This is where mafia intentionally make 'strong' cases against townies or try to root out the SK, and is the most dangerous and is the oen I tend to be attuned to)


Crap, Antithesis already said all that for me. I hate you antithesis, or should I say "Glory Stealer"!!!


As for "anecdotal evidence" - I do not think scum come out of the bag swinging at each other. Scum hunting scum usually happens latently - See Waffling above - quietly building their own cases against who they THINK is scum for a situation where the other scum team is closer to winning OR if they are in danger of dying themselves. Scum in the beginnign of a game are going to loosely try to get power roles killed off, and at the end of the game, when town is a minority and not a threat to either of them, they will then attack each other. So yes scum WILL hunt each other LATER in the game or day 1 before it's even known there 'is' a second scum group.

[Skruffs]

I didn't realize Panzer commented on the scum groups day 1; I'll be honest and admit that I wasn't in the game, day 1, and so I really couldn't have commented on it at that time. Irresponsible of me, I know. Did you comment on it?

Could you bring up the quote?

[Skruffs]

Panz, I've been relying on my intuition on you to think you are pro-town despite a bit of controversy about you. I was reading, trying to figure out what Snaps was talking about in regards to you having knowledge of two scum teams day one, but I can't find it. Can YOU find it? I only find where you suggest phate is a serial killer, and your very strange wording on your first few posts. I don't like those wording clumps. Explain?

[Skruffs]

Yes, yes, this ending is not TOO surprising..