Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[dahill1]

hello everybody
i just want to point out that i've also replaced melodyman in another game as well, so i believe that his low post content is just due to not being online

[dahill1]

also it was pretty scummy for jesse to claim cop and not be one, but on the other hand justin never confronted him

Still... Fos: Jesse

[dahill1]

oh right! i totally forgot about the 2 cops my bad

[dahill1]

Spacecase hasn't said much to ease my mind. He still refuses to answer any direct requests to further explain his quick reversal on Kab.

Good point

FoS: Spacecase

[dahill1]

just a heads up to the mod

i'll be gone for the next 4 days, so for now

Vote: Spacecase

please don't replace me!

[dahill1]

i managed to get ahold of a computer at a bed and breakfast i'm staying at so here is my response:

to laptopgun--it geniunely was a newb mistake for the jesse suspicion, i thought there was only one cop so then he would be lying..the reason i didn't vote him was because as i said before, justin never confronted jesse for some reason so it must have been a good one. now i believe there to be 2 cops, hence my reversal

to vollkan--i voted for spacecase because his avoidance of questions
however he now has an excuse for lack of posting, but my vote will stay on him until he answers

[dahill1]

cipher after you're done reading through the thread tell us what your analysis is so far

[dahill1]

I definitely got the impression that dahill hadn't really read the game and decided to just hop on the easiest wagon

30 pages!?!? come on man!
but seriously if spacecase comes up with a good argument i will gladly unvote

[dahill1]

EBWOP: 20 pages

[dahill1]

Also, everyone seems to have given dahill a pass on the basis of his response. I'm not sure, if the initial thing was really worth attacking, then his response was adequate. And LTG's attack on dahill's entrance was uncharacteristically forceful, to then drop it pretty much immediately... something's odd there. Not necessarily scummy-odd, but I'm not sure of the rationale.

what can i say..i'm lovable

[dahill1]

you think? or investigated?

[dahill1]

cipher has claimed cop already...
i was just wondering if he knew for sure or was just speculating

[dahill1]

oh sorry my mistake...Day 3 has been long

[dahill1]

so who do you think would be more likely to be scum? spacecase or phate? or possibly both?

[dahill1]

dahill's entry

what do you mean by this? are you referring to my mistake about the 1 cop?

[dahill1]

Mod: it's 5 voting for SC not 4

rigel, to please you i'll make a list

Spacecase: scummy, flip-flopped on the kab vote (already mentioned)

Phate: scummy, didn't know cipher claimed cop, also a "Bizarro Spacecase" as Cipher put it, changed opinion quickly on kab as well just like spacecase
(possible scumbuddies?)

so far these are the people i think are the most scummy
i'm also waiting for perfectiondoesntexist to finish the thread/analyze

[dahill1]

Umm...you didn't appear to know that Cipher had claimed cop either...

If his not knowing that Cipher is a cop is scummy, then so is you not knowing that Jesse is a cop.

i didn't not know jesse/cipher was cop i just assumed there was only one cop in the game, which i then realized my mistake later

fonz, how does it not make sense? if justin was the cop, and he did not have reason to suspect jesse, than why should i?

[dahill1]

...but not if the other cop doesn't suspect him
and also imagine if i did vote for jesse. everyone would have gone after me for voting the cop (after he claimed).

[dahill1]

If you'd voted Jesse, apparently not understanding there could be multiple cops, it'd make reasonable sense. To believe that Jesse was fakeclaiming, but it's ok because Justin didn't say anything about it, is ludicrous.

I did vote jesse because i thought there was one cop. as for the second sentence, it's just a matter of opinion. i feel my fos was justified, but it wasn't.

[dahill1]

my mistake EBWOP

I did fos jesse because i thought there was one cop. as for the second sentence, it's just a matter of opinion. i feel my fos was justified, but it wasn't.

[dahill1]

i see what you're saying, and understand. but for me, i would fos in that situation until i knew more

[dahill1]

i didn't say its scumtell, but it does make you a little suspicious

[dahill1]

again, not under suspicion, but suspicious. don't you agree that not knowing who is cop and who he has confirmed as townies is a little sketchy. of course, he could have just missed it while reading in which case he should do a reread

[dahill1]

It's certainly odd, yet it's true that there are many mistakes that can be made in mafia that don't truly yield any role information.

That is true and could very well be true for phate as well.
but for right now i want to focus the attention on spacecase, so we can see what happens after he's lynched (if he is)

[dahill1]

i wasn't using it as a second argument, i'm just saying it's possible that SC could not be lynched if something suspicious turns up.

[dahill1]

on the kab bandwagon justin fairplay was the second to vote..
did you think he was part of the scum driving it?

[dahill1]

That is true and could very well be true for phate as well.
but for right now i want to focus the attention on spacecase, so we can see what happens after he's lynched (if he is)

@dahill

This comment is interesting, to say the least...

Wouldn't you agree that it's more pro-town to focus attention where necessary (to try to maximize the chances of lynching scum), versus focusing all attention on one individual in hopes that more information will come to light after the lynch?

you're right we should focus attention where necessary, but i think right now that spacecase probably will be scum, and my only other suspicion is phate. we should lynch either phate or spacecase, and then depending on their role, look back on connections, etc.

[dahill1]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on. <snip>

@ farside

Here's a quote where you mention that most of the time, lurkers are scum. As we've got several of them in this game, do you stand by your comment that most lurkers are scum?

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

Pointless comments, wishy washy and contraditory or also how I evaluate scum. Lurkers go on there because it's easy not to say much and vote out town as scum then trying to be involved in the conversation.

Pointless, wishy washy and contradictory are all valid scumtells in most cirumcstances...but lurking? It is easy to lurk and it can help scum, but lurking is not itself

scummy

. Anti-town, sure, but not scummy.

but wouldn't you agree that anyone that is anti-town should lynched?
i say either let them participate or lynch them

[dahill1]

yeah i can see what you're saying
but they really should still participate

[dahill1]

@Fonz I am more inclined to believe that Spacecase is town based on 2 things, neither of which are particuarly strong. I think the stupidity factor seems to say stupid town than stupid mafia. This is admitedly speculation, but I would have thought that scum partners would defend him by now. Additionally, today's wagon bears an awfully strange resemblance to the one on Kab, and we know how that one turned out. Like I said, this is by no means great reasons, but it's enough so I'm not voting him.

his scum partners could either be bussing him right now, or they realized he's a lost cause and just let him be lycnhed

@Shteven I'm thinking a third option. Some mafia are on the wagon, but not all. They want to have townies provide the last few votes so they look scummy. They then can use some of the same arguments against Spacecase on the voter(s).

but you're right about this they could be already on the wagon, and putting the scumminess on townies

[dahill1]

how about if someone puts spacecase at L-2 or L-1 for a claim, but we don't lynch yet?

[dahill1]

I do agree with your other point, at 5 votes and not moving, those 3 votes are a long way from coming and there isn't a need for him to claim yet.

oops sorry this mixed me up

but how about pressure L-1?

[dahill1]

but how about pressure L-1?

I am none too keen on the way you are trying to build up this wagon by calling for a "pressure L-1". No significant increase in pressure will result from L-1 as opposed to L-2.

Spacecase has begun lurking, which suggests avoidance. That in itself may or may not be scummy, but the fact that things are moving so slowly adds further cause for concern.

i'm not trying to rush the lynch..spacecase is lurking and avoiding, and i want pressure for that exact reason

[dahill1]

phate is starting to look like a good vote for me, if the SC wagon is slowing down
i'm also sort of getting cold feet about SC and the two people voting for phate so far are the cop and confirmed townie

[dahill1]

dahill, your entire reason for suspecting me (without voting me, just gauging the waters) is that other people are on the wagon? You don't even take the time to find and echo their reasons, you just say 'good enough for them, good enough for me?'

That was an incredibly scummy post.

thats not my reason for suspecting you..
i just pointed out that the SC wagon was slowing, and you happened to be the next suspect on my (and others') list. my reasons for suspecting you is because you switched quickly from saying Kab is town to heavily suspecting him, just like Spacecase. also, as i pointed out before, you hadn't realized cipher had claimed which is scummy in my book. scum don't always have to read through the thread. they can just look for when they are mentioned and defend themselves to slip by. i'm not saying scum always do that, but it is more likely for scum than town to do that. furthermore, the fact that the confirmed townie and cop suspect you does somewhat contribute to my suspicion. i think that even though he might not have investigated you, Cipher's opinion should be the most highly valued because of his pro-town power role. LaptopGun also should have a valued opinion because he is confirmed town. there is a chance he could be the GF, but i believe him to be town.
those are my reasons

vote phate

[dahill1]

EBWOP
forgot the unvote

unvote vote phate

[dahill1]

okay melody man was just a bad player. i've seen his games (and replaced in a few as well), and so far he has acted like that regardless of alignment.
and i never said the fact that they are confirmed means they are right or wrong. but shouldn't we trust what the cop says more than someone else? this is not me trying to "act town", it's what i genuinely believe; that cops should have more say in a lynch than other unconfirmed players.

p.s. it seems to me that phate saw a wagon to jump on and did so by just using the "for reasons previously stated" line. phate, can you elaborate on why you think i'm scum, in your own words?

[dahill1]

okay melody man was just a bad player. i've seen his games (and replaced in a few as well), and so far he has acted like that regardless of alignment.
and i never said the fact that they are confirmed means they are right or wrong. but shouldn't we trust what the cop says more than someone else? this is not me trying to "act town", it's what i genuinely believe; that cops should have more say in a lynch than other unconfirmed players.

p.s. it seems to me that phate saw a wagon to jump on and did so by just using the "for reasons previously stated" line. phate, can you elaborate on why you think i'm scum, in your own words?

As far as trusting what the cop says more than someone else, while the cop's intentions can be trusted, that doesn't mean that their scum picks are correct. Simply voting someone because 'the cop says we should' could give you a free pass if the lynch were to go bad and the lynchee end up townie. Don't you think?

of course it doesn't mean that phate is 100% guaranteed scum, but in my mind it contributes to it. also, that was clearly not my sole reason for voting for phate, as people are making it out to be.

@dahill again

Earlier on Day 3, SC was asked to further describe his thought process on how he came to hammer Kabenon. The post below was eventually pulled out of him, and although incomplete, it was a start. In the post, SC says that he though the bandwagon on Kab was scum-driven at some point.

Alright maybe I try to explain better why I voted to kill Kab. When the first post happened I thought that the wagon was a scum driven wagon. I didn't think that he was scum at all. But, what Kab said 15 posts later changed my opinion. You can't tell me that you have never changed your opinion 10 to 20 posts later.

I hope that this gives you a better understanding of my thought process.

Now here's a question you posed based on SC's post above.

on the kab bandwagon justin fairplay was the second to vote..
did you think he was part of the scum driving it?

Can you explain why you asked this question? What info were you hoping to get from an answer?

i asked this question because i wanted to know if, at the time, SC thought Justin was scum. the info i wished to recieve was along the lines of.."i thought _____ of him then, i think _____ of him now"

also, people seem to be undermining my main reason of voting phate, and have no problem jumping on to my wagon

[dahill1]

phate i believe i already answered your question..

dahill, your entire reason for suspecting me (without voting me, just gauging the waters) is that other people are on the wagon? You don't even take the time to find and echo their reasons, you just say 'good enough for them, good enough for me?'

That was an incredibly scummy post.

thats not my reason for suspecting you..
i just pointed out that the SC wagon was slowing, and you happened to be the next suspect on my (and others') list. my reasons for suspecting you is because you switched quickly from saying Kab is town to heavily suspecting him, just like Spacecase. also, as i pointed out before, you hadn't realized cipher had claimed which is scummy in my book. scum don't always have to read through the thread. they can just look for when they are mentioned and defend themselves to slip by. i'm not saying scum always do that, but it is more likely for scum than town to do that. furthermore, the fact that the confirmed townie and cop suspect you does somewhat contribute to my suspicion. i think that even though he might not have investigated you, Cipher's opinion should be the most highly valued because of his pro-town power role. LaptopGun also should have a valued opinion because he is confirmed town. there is a chance he could be the GF, but i believe him to be town.
those are my reasons

vote phate

[dahill1]

@dahill again

Earlier on Day 3, SC was asked to further describe his thought process on how he came to hammer Kabenon. The post below was eventually pulled out of him, and although incomplete, it was a start. In the post, SC says that he though the bandwagon on Kab was scum-driven at some point.

Alright maybe I try to explain better why I voted to kill Kab. When the first post happened I thought that the wagon was a scum driven wagon. I didn't think that he was scum at all. But, what Kab said 15 posts later changed my opinion. You can't tell me that you have never changed your opinion 10 to 20 posts later.

I hope that this gives you a better understanding of my thought process.

Now here's a question you posed based on SC's post above.

on the kab bandwagon justin fairplay was the second to vote..
did you think he was part of the scum driving it?

Can you explain why you asked this question? What info were you hoping to get from an answer?

i asked this question because i wanted to know if, at the time, SC thought Justin was scum. the info i wished to recieve was along the lines of.."i thought _____ of him then, i think _____ of him now"

also, people seem to be undermining my main reason of voting phate, and have no problem jumping on to my wagon

I'm not jumping on any wagon, just asking a question...

We know what everyone thinks of Justin now, what did you think of Justin then?

i was replaced after justin died, so i can't really say what i thought of him without having the bias of already knowing he was a cop. however, i think whoever he investigated on nights 0 and 1 he got innocent on them, because he suspected lots of people but did not focus on one specifically. also when reading back, i saw that in one post Justin made a comment specifically directed towards Phate. in it, he mentioned that Jesse had claimed cop and now, just recently, Phate

[dahill1]

@dahill again

Earlier on Day 3, SC was asked to further describe his thought process on how he came to hammer Kabenon. The post below was eventually pulled out of him, and although incomplete, it was a start. In the post, SC says that he though the bandwagon on Kab was scum-driven at some point.

Alright maybe I try to explain better why I voted to kill Kab. When the first post happened I thought that the wagon was a scum driven wagon. I didn't think that he was scum at all. But, what Kab said 15 posts later changed my opinion. You can't tell me that you have never changed your opinion 10 to 20 posts later.

I hope that this gives you a better understanding of my thought process.

Now here's a question you posed based on SC's post above.

on the kab bandwagon justin fairplay was the second to vote..
did you think he was part of the scum driving it?

Can you explain why you asked this question? What info were you hoping to get from an answer?

i asked this question because i wanted to know if, at the time, SC thought Justin was scum. the info i wished to recieve was along the lines of.."i thought _____ of him then, i think _____ of him now"

also, people seem to be undermining my main reason of voting phate, and have no problem jumping on to my wagon

I'm not jumping on any wagon, just asking a question...

We know what everyone thinks of Justin now, what did you think of Justin then?

i was replaced after justin died, so i can't really say what i thought of him without having the bias of already knowing he was a cop. however, i think whoever he investigated on nights 0 and 1 he got innocent on them, because he suspected lots of people but did not focus on one specifically. also when reading back, i saw that in one post Justin made a comment specifically directed towards Phate. In it, he mentioned that Jesse had claimed cop and, unless he just skipped over that post, Phate recently claimed to have not known of the cop claim

[dahill1]

sorry my computer has been messing up lately

everyone plese ignore post 656, the real post is 657

[dahill1]

i skimmed first for highlights then re-read more thoroughly later

[dahill1]

also when it first lists all of the players still alive and dead and their roles, etc.
i saw it said that Justin was a cop

[dahill1]

and i never said the fact that they are confirmed means they are right or wrong. but shouldn't we trust what the cop says more than someone else? this is not me trying to "act town", it's what i genuinely believe; that cops should have more say in a lynch than other unconfirmed players.

But doesn't the likelihood of them being right or wrong influence the extent to which they can be trusted?

well not exactly for the cop because he is only sure if he gets a guilty, but we can always trust the cop. i'm not 100% sure about Phate, but right now i'm happy with my vote.

I've commented to disagree with one post you've made before, and I gave reasons there. If you don't see why it's in the town's interests to point out that dahill is wrong to refer to you as confirmed town, then I don't really know what I can say to you.

i already mentioned that LTG could be a GF or SK

[dahill1]

there is a chance he could be the GF

EBWOP: i forgot to put SK in there too

[dahill1]

Oh, and dahill, can you explain your unvote of spacecase?

Was his townie claim so brilliant and unexpected it cleared him in your eyes?
Was the case so weak that you'd hop off at any sign of resistance?

Yes, these are leading questions.

i unvoted Spacecase because it looked like to me that it was slowing down, and Phate seemed like a better choice to me. i haven't cleared my suspicions of Spacecase entirely, but Phate seems more suspicious right now. i didn't unvote SC because of his claim, that pretty much was a null-tell for me. and it wasn't a weak case either, it's just the BW slowed down and Phate was a better choice for me

[dahill1]

i unvoted because it appeared no one else was going to vote him. in fact, i think some people unvoted him. as for your next question, i don't think we can tell right now whether it has to do with his alignment or not. it was Shteven, i believe, who said that a BW can slow down for a variety of reasons.
Phate seems to me at this point more likely to be scum than anyone else because he made a quick reversal from saying kab was town to voting for him. he had failed to notice that cipher/jesse was a cop even after seeing it more than once before (unless he skipped the posts), and to a much much lesser extent, cipher suspects him
i would vote for either Phate or SC right now, but an SC lynch doesn't seem like it's going to happen.

[dahill1]

i just looked back and you're right i was first to unvote.
as i said in my last post i'd still be willing to vote for SC but no one else looks like they are going to vote for him

[dahill1]

well we have to come to a decision then..
should we lynch Spacecase or Phate? (who i think are both the most suspicious)

[dahill1]

you don't think Spacecase and Phate have basically the same case against them?

[dahill1]

i unvoted because it appeared no one else was going to vote him. in fact, i think some people unvoted him.

How exactly does that affect you justifiably unvoting?

it didn't appear to me that SC was going to be lynched, so I voted Phate and made a case against him because he was the next most suspicious.

[dahill1]

i unvoted because it appeared no one else was going to vote him. in fact, i think some people unvoted him.

How exactly does that affect you justifiably unvoting?

it didn't appear to me that SC was going to be lynched, so I voted Phate and made a case against him because he was the next most suspicious.

The purpose of lynching is to lynch scum? Yes or No.

If yes: The best player to push a lynch of is the scummiest player? Yes or No.

If yes: Why then are you voting your second most suspect?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) The lack of particpation seemed to indicate that he was not going to be lynched.

[dahill1]

To try and understand this:

You are saying that the difference in scumminess is made up for by the fact that SC's lynch seemed less likely to go ahead?

If so, why? I also don't accept "lack of participation" as a reason. That may have as much to do with people just being bored as with lack of enthusiasm about SC.

well, overall, the difference in scumminess was very little. in fact, to me they were practically the same but we just decided to lynch SC first.

[dahill1]

rigel,
first of all have you read in to the case against Phate? because it's more than just him not posting that often. and again, i keep saying this but everyone seems to ignore it, i did not vote for Phate just because 2 other people voted for him! that is one of my very minor reasons, and again it was more because of Cipher than because of LTG as i said before. i'm still in support of a SC lynch, but as i have stated, it did not appear like it was going to happen to me, so i switched to Phate

[dahill1]

i would vote SC but only if i know he's definitely going to be lynched
also, i'd probably be pegged as wishy washy and scummy if i switched my vote now

[dahill1]

@MadCrawdad: The case on kab isn't great, in my opinion. I don't think he's scum. I think that there are scum on the wagon. If a kablynch is the play, I'd like to start preemptively looking at who's most likely to be scum in the event of his being town/scum.

This is where I would vote kab, except that it would put him at L-1

you say "i don't think he's scum" and then that you would vote for him but the only reason you're not is because he'd be at L-1.
also, it's not just your lack of attentiveness but you clearly had previously acknowledged that Cipher/Jesse had claimed. it just seemed weird to me that you would somehow forget later and accuse me of fishing

[dahill1]

Wow, this game is SLOW.

There is no discussion, no action.

@Others

: How do you feel about Rigel? Shteven?

you noticed the rigel--farside connection, and i also wanted to point out that as soon as i made a case against phate and voted for him, farside voted for me almost immediatly
as for shteven, i think madcrawdad makes the best point with this post

I'm saying

that Rigel posted his argument for lynching SC regardless of affiliation, and you specifically said

'How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time...'

This would imply to me that you did read Rigel's argument, and found it quite compelling. So much so that you question why EVERYONE was not voting SC at that time.

shteven implied that he did read through rigel's post with his comment
and he also clearly said "how can people not be voting SC now?"

[dahill1]

It suggests very strongly that you are simply being driven by a desire to lynch, rather than a desire to lynch well (ie. to lynch scum).

QFT this is what i was trying to say about Shteven but i couldn't think of the right words.

[dahill1]

Little point in lynching a claimed doctor. I'll go back to spacecase then.

Unvote: Phate, Vote: Spacecase

unvote

but i'm a little unsure about voting SC again with all of these new suspects

[dahill1]

Phate: Are you concerned with whether or not Spacecase is scum? From the above post, it doesn't seem so.

QFT
also rereading the cases, Rigel looks like the best lynch today to me because of his defense of farside and he seemed to be overdefensive when LML accused him, and tomorrow it will provide us with a better chance of finding scum depending on what his role is/night actions

Vote Rigel

[dahill1]

@Shteven: No, not particularly. I do know he's a better lynch than I am, because I delay the cop's death by a night.

so you think that overall, SC is the best lynch?

[dahill1]

without really giving any reasons of their own.

ok from that post you say you're going to either vote for SC or Rigel (which both have a fair number of people on their wagons). now give a reason that hasn't been stated before why you will vote for one of them.

But since it's looking like the deadline is forcing a choice between Spacecase and Rigel at this point, I'm stating an intention to vote for Spacecase if necessary. I'm not completely sold on his guilt, but that case definitely seems to have a much better foundation than Rigel's, which seems like it's just blowing a minor mistake way out of proportion.

i think it should be noted how iamausername is defending Rigel
i'm starting to agree with LML

Linkage between Rigel and Farside.

also, IMO the case against Rigel is better than SC's

[dahill1]

MCD, your vote is on Shteven and we can all agree he isn't going to be lynched today
who do you think is more likely to be scum, SC or Rigel?

[dahill1]

MCD, your vote is on Shteven and we can all agree he isn't going to be lynched today
who do you think is more likely to be scum, SC or Rigel?

Fair enough case. However, it almost reads like one scum buddy to change his vote. That just sounds... odd.

no, it's just that we have agreed that either SC or Rigel is going to be lynched, and everyone needs to make a decision. this goes the same for Cipher and SC.

[dahill1]

I'll

Vote: dahill1

for now, pending possible clearance from Cipher.

Everything I said yesterday still applies, among other things. He (or one of his predecessors) wasn't on either scum lynch, but

was

on the one mislynch so far. In general, his reaction to the Spacecase wagon yesterday seems extremely scummy; he got on it early in the day, when it looked like the only option, then changed his vote to Phate (now confirmed town) once a wagon started to form there, after much fanning of the flames of suspicion on his part. Seemed like he was really trying to find someone else to lynch instead of his scumbuddy. When the Rigel/Spacecase choice is forced by deadline he picks Rigel, restating everyone else's reasons.

well i can't say anything for my predecessors, but i thought that Rigel was the better case rather than Spacecase yesterday. your reason for me being suspicious for voting Phate is weak. yes, he is now confirmed town, but how was i, or anybody else supposed to know that. you're trying to put suspicion on me for pushing for a Phate lynch. i admit i was, because i thought he was pretty scummy at the time. of course, we now know he was telling the truth.

There's also a possible slip in Post 637, where he refers to LaptopGun as "confirmed townie" - Obviously, if dahill is mafia, he'd know that LTG wasn't the godfather, and it seems from his other posts around that time that he didn't realise at the time that the SK would investigate as innocent, although way later, after people point this out, he claims that he just "forgot" to mention this possibility. (Post 667)

i only said confirmed town at the time because Cipher got an innocent on him. the possibilities of GF and SK had indeed slipped my mind.

Then in Post 820 he attacks me because "<I> say <I'm> going to either vote for SC or Rigel (which both have a fair number of people on their wagons)" without giving reasons of my own, which a) is not true; I pretty clearly stated that I

wasn't

going to vote for Rigel and b) I was obviously doing because of the deadline, and his very next post clearly shows that he understands this necessity.

i knew you were doing it because of the deadline! the point i was trying to make was that it's hard to find reasons of your own for lynching someone when someone else already makes a compelling case against them, and you agree with it. am i not allowed to agree?
concerning Cipher's innocent result, i'm not sure whether you should reveal it right away or not. as iamusername said, there is a chance of another doc, but we can't rely on that completely. i think you should definitely reveal it, however, if that person is under pressure or about to be lynched.

[dahill1]

also

Vote Rigel

i see no reason why i shouldn't be voting for him today, because the case still stays the same
the only difference is that there is no deadline, and more time for discussion

[dahill1]

It's not the fact that you pushed a Phate lynch that makes you suspicious, so much as the

way

you were pushing it, strongly encouraging others to find reasons to suspect him, but not actually applying your own vote until a couple of others had.

what? i believe what happened was the opposite of that
i voted after a few others had,

then

i started pushing harder for it

dahill: Just to kick the tyres a bit:

Part of your case on Phate is that he was suspected by the dead cop and the investigated innocent.

That kind of logic would suggest suspecting yourself for attacking, and being attacked by, the dead doc, yes?

well being attacked by the dead doc is one thing. but being attacked by the

cop

is something else.

[dahill1]

well being attacked by the dead doc is one thing. but being attacked by the cop is something else.

There would only be a difference if the cop had an investigation result on the person he suspected. Otherwise the cop and doc are operating on the same information.

yeah, but we can never know what result Justin got for sure

[dahill1]

i still don't see how i was pushing for a phate lynch
yes, i thought he was scummy beforehand. but i wouldn't say i was pushing for his lynch

[dahill1]

dahill: Ahhh, you sure looked like you were pushing for a lynch of phate. I dont see that as scummy. You don't have to justify that to me, as I understood some of what you said. Thing is no you are comming off like you want to play revisionist history with your posts.

it was directed mostly towards iamusername

[dahill1]

Why would the fact that Spacecase's wagon was slowing down make him

less

likely to be scum?

it didn't but in my mind, either Phate or SC would have been a good lynch, so if one wagon looked like it wasn't going to happen, i joined the other one

[dahill1]

town can easily be wrong

you just summed up my defense
i just mislynched, doesn't mean that i am scum

[dahill1]

I might as well tell you at this point: my innocent result was on Rigel.

Obviously, this does not help dahill's cause.

unvote

i don't see how that relates to my cause though..

[dahill1]

It's another person you've suspected that ended up probably town (or SK). But really, we need to be a bit more fair to dahill; there were plenty of other people voting for rigel. It's a very useful innocent result, because it will resolve a lot of the arguments we had on day 3, but here's rigel's wagon at deadline:

Rigel - 5 (LoudmouthLee, Oman, dahill1, vollkan, MadCrawdad)

They can't all be scum; even if 100% of the anti-town roles were on there, 2 townies were as well. Likely 3 or 4 were town.

FOS: LML, Oman

I have had my reservations about both LML and Oman, and while I don't have much solid to go on, I can dig up some of their posts that have struck me the wrong way when I have the time. I may do it later tonight, or another day. We need to discuss more than just dahill today.

For a temporary explanation, I don't like Oman's handling of the spacecase wagon. LML came out very forcefully on day 3, accusing two players. One of which, Rigel, is now a non-mafia role. LML and Oman have been lurking on day 4, neither have posted yet.

i actually agree with you that there probably was at least one scum on the wagon, which makes me also suspect of LML and Oman (i am discounting myself, because i know i am town). i'll reread them

[dahill1]

ARGH! i just had a big post on Oman, but i lost it!
anyways i'll sum up my argument. first, (although it was the joke phase) he suggests that scum kill the most analytical players. next, he clearly OMGUS's Phate, and even says "This isn't an OMGUS". i agree with the person who said that "just because you say it's not an OMGUS, doesn't mean it isn't."
next, Oman votes for Kab

even though he hasn't even mentioned him before!

. later, he continues to push for a Kab lynch, and still has given no reasons. also, he assumes that Justin investigated either Phate or Farside and got a guilty. Oman, why do you think that?
Ok, this is a major point. When SC jumped on the wagon, Oman said that it look more newbie to him and that he thought he was just following the crowd because he was a newbie. then, he votes SC for lurking, but goes on to say that he "isn't sold on the SC lynch".

[dahill1]

Ok, rereading Spacecase, the only people he really went after were the now confirmed townies and Wesaq (which is technically me). You can interpret that however you want but I think in this game he's just trying to lynch all innocents, and not going for bussing just yet.
Regarding my reluctance on the SC wagon, there's not much I can say besides I honestly thought he was not scum. I know, it looked

really

bad for me when he came up as the GF. Especially when I was so hesitant to join his wagon again. I saw the case against him, but I believed the other cases to be stronger so I jumped on those.

Also,

Vote Oman

, I forgot to in my previous post.

[dahill1]

He's suspicious by process of elimination.

so you haven't been particularly suspicious of him, but you think everyone is more protown?

[dahill1]

even if dcorbe (claims) not to be the SK, i agree that the SK should come out now. as it would be to the SK's best advantage to claim now

[dahill1]

I'm a little confused why people asked dcorbe if he was the SK. Here's the claim:

If dropping hints isn't enough, I'll just come right out and say it. I'm NOT mafia. I'm a townie. Lynching me isn't going to end the game.

Yeah, he started with "I'm not mafia", but the next line is pretty blunt I'd say. He's claimed townie, he didn't claim "I'm a townie or the SK". Of course, no matter what role he has lynching him isn't going to end the game, so that line was a bit odd. We're not trying to end the game, just find a single scum. We've got 3 left, so night's coming whether you're town or not. A correct (mafia) lynch and two cross kills could technically end it before another day, but that's quite unlikely.

I'm a bit upset with the lack of discussion on other players, but no one seems that interested in talking about armlx or others, so I'll just wait for tommorow, pending my survival.

Unvote. Vote: dcorbe

well of course dcorbe wouldn't say "i'm townie or SK"! just because someone claims townie doesn't mean they are not the SK.

[dahill1]

..and all of the people not voting (besides maybe Rigel

request prod btw

) have been suspicious of dcorbe/Oman, and would have voted if not for it being a lynch if they all did

[dahill1]

Dcorbe, you may be interested (and probably very pissed off) to know that everything I have been saying about it being good for the SK to claim was complete and utter bullshit. I laid a trap, and you fell right into it.

first of all, /praise vollkan. that was brilliant
also, i agree with cipher as to why we should lynch dcorbe today regardless. there is a very likely chance that he's a mafia and not the SK. furthermore, seeing his recent play, i would not trust him to not kill one of our confirmed towns.

[dahill1]

My original claim was townie. If I'm lying about this, then I'll probably be killed by either the SK or the Mob tonight.

I don't think iamausername's notion of my survivability if I DON'T get lynched right away flies. I'm likely to be killed by either the SK or the Mob tonight if I'm not mob. If I'm still alive tomorrow you've basically confirmed my role.

If I'm NOT lying about my original pro-town claim, we're all basically wasting a lynch at this point. and it potentially means that up to 2 more of us townies are going to die tonight. Do we really want to do that?

If I'm NOT lying about my SK Claim (and as Cipher and Stheven pointed out) I could potentially be in a position to help the town.

@dahill1: Who are the confirmed pro-town roles right now?

if you claim SK, then why do you keep mentioning how you might get killed by the SK? slip? i'm thinking dcorbe is mafia fakeclaiming SK. our cop is basically confirmed. there is a very small chance he could be maf i think, but that is highly unlikely and i trust him. also, we have a claimed mason, and no counterclaims, so he is basically confirmed. why do you want to know the confirmeds?

[dahill1]

post coming later

[dahill1]

(posting this in all games)

away til tuesday

[dahill1]

i have wireless, but still expect limited access until tuesday
as a quick summary, right now i think the mafia is one of iamusername/armlx
and the SK is probably Fonz

[dahill1]

ok right now, i agree with The Fonz=most likely SK
at first, that leaves the remaining mafia candidates as Shteven, username, and armlx
Shteven's recent actions have led me to believe he is more likely to be protown. however, of course i am not clearing him entirely but he probably won't receive my vote today.
that leaves username and armlx, and i am inclined to think that armlx is the remaining mafia.
iamusername first accused me when he replaced in, and the accusations seemed truly sincere. armlx seemed to jump on the wagon to me, and he could be looking for an easy lynch
however, fonz has a bigger wagon right now, and i don't want to throw any more wagons in at the moment, so

vote The Fonz

[dahill1]

however, fonz has a bigger wagon right now, and i don't want to throw any more wagons in at the moment, so

vote The Fonz

Know who had an even bigger wagon than The Fonz?

dahill

.

Seriously though, Fonz is the best lynch for today if the rest of you aren't going to go for dahill. Not like it makes a difference which scum we hit today.

hehe good point, but you should all seriously consider the numbers tomorrow if we lynch the SK today..
SK lynch=5-1
Mafia Kill Tonight=4-1
Mislynch Next Day (presuming you lynch me)=3-1
Mafia Kill Next Night=2-1, and that leaves an ugly endgame situation

[dahill1]

If we lynch either scum today and town tomorrow, we'll end up in that situation whoever the particular players concerned are. What's your point?

just sayin that i'm town, and that we should lynch scum tomorrow

[dahill1]

i claim townie, and i don't see how my posts are focusing in on just SK..
i specifically list my suspects for the mafia as well. i assumed Fonz is the SK with that analysis, because well...i think he is!

[dahill1]

Fonz, i'm not voting you

because

you have a bigger wagon, but it is between either you or armlx right now, for me. and armlx currently has no votes, so i voted for you because you did have more votes

[dahill1]

I'd vote for dahil or Fonz but I dont want to vote then disappear. That could leave the wagon open to be hijacked.

Wagons can't be hijacked if they're on scum. You should've voted dahill before you left so we wouldn't be stuck here waiting.

the honest truth is that i honestly thought phate was a better lynch and when SC turned up scum, i was basically screwed. the mafia are going to take full advantage of this to kill me

[dahill1]

damn i had armlx and Fonz mixed up!
anyways great job Fonz, i honestly had no idea you were mafia.
the good part about this game is i think i'm starting to see an anti-town tell for armlx