Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!

[xyzzy]

What the hell is going on? Wonderful way to start off the game, guys!

I, personally, find the first day to be completely useless. It's happened many times: tons of discussion, just to get back where we started, and in the end we all just vote for no lynching.

On the first day, I think it'd be best to not lynch at all. If we just take out a random guess, we could end up hurting ourselves in the process.

I'm not voting for it just yet, to see if any discussion can be born from this; but seriously, stop voting randomly for idiotic reasons.

WHAT?!? "Hey, everyone, let's lose us some townies at night before we go on! Since, you know, day one is random, since it's a safe assumption that we don't have day abilities in the town and that we have any power in the town that can provide us with info at night! Yeah, that'll help

my scumbuddies

the town!"

FoS: egruntz

I agree but disagree with what people have been saying. I agree that the random voting stage of the game is ok, but I don't like the idea of a random lynch. By random voting it gets discussion going which helps us dig out people who give scummish vibes by what they've said. is that lynch always scum? no. but at least it isnt a bandwagon lynch based on no information whatsoever.

Quoting my replacee to say thaqt 1)I agree and 2)you have bad grammar.

Okay, not a joke vote.

unvote; vote egruntz

You may not agree with the random vote phase, but I really dislike your suggestion of a "no-lynch".

Just because you don't derive anything useful doesn't mean others don't or can't, and pushing for a no-lynch on day one (and your stated assumption is that there automatically WILL be one, which also tells me you haven't read many games here, if any) is in my view counterproductive and rather scummy. You're making a lot of assumptions about what will occur, and jumping to a conclusion without enough evidence.

Additionally, you're a killjoy.

Unvote, vote: BooKitty

Kitty, you're an experienced enough player. You must have noticed the 'townsperson' underneath his name, right?

New=/=exempt from suspicion

Do you think you can get more information from a dead body than from a live one?

Erhm, exactly my point. If we choose to lynch someone randomly, with the odds of 3-4/18 being mafia, there's a pretty good chance that we'll lynch one of our own people. If we skip the first round and only lose one of the town instead of two, then we can keep the town living longer.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't vote or lynch randomly. It'll most likely effect the town.

What conclusion do you feel I've rushed to?

Well, obviously you think I'm scum, since you voted for me. If not, then what a poor reason to vote for someone. All that I've said is that it'd be best to skip the lynch for the first day. Surely you shouldn't vote for me, just for stating my opinions?

That right there shows horrible quality in a mafia player.

Yeah, but we have no guarantee that night will provide us with useful info. Then we're just down another dead body with only slightly greater odds of hitting scum.

If your opinions are scummy it's prefectly valid to vote for you.

Look, random voting is an essential part of the game and I'm going to doubt anyone's mafia playing ability who doesn't realize it. It gets discussion going and then someone says something and it gets analyzed and then someone says something else and it get's analyzed. Like now, egruntz said "hey, guys we should no lynch" everyone reacted and now The Fonz said "he is a newbie so don't pay attention" These are two of the more important pieces of evidence right now(in my opinion) and both have happened due to the random voting phase, so quit your bitching, kthnx.

Second, I hate all this random lynch talk. We are not randomly lynching anyone. We are gonna decide via deliberation and democracy, thusly forcing people to make a decision. Discussion is good. Interaction between players mean things; Making it ignorant and irresponible to end day immediately with a random or No lynch. And if it was random, I'd much rather roll an 18 sided dice and lynch the player that's number comes up. That has much more of a chance a causing interaction between players then just saying okay guys, vote no lynch. Besides no lynch can't even defend himself.

Anyway, back to important things,

Vote: The fonz

You wrote off a newbie that obviously wasn't even a newbie and then you voted someone for attacking the guy's idea, which was obviously terrible.

P.S Thinking someone is scum is not the only reason to vote for someone, don't be so naive

P.S.S I think Fonz is scum

<3 Panzer

You had nothing else to say about that post. I'm not posting content for the rest of the game.

...Never mind.

First gather information,

then

vote or lay a FOS on someone.
That's how I'd do it.

But we have a limited amount of time to do that. May as well get all the data we can now.

Erhm, exactly my point. If we choose to lynch someone randomly, with the odds of 3-4/18 being mafia, there's a pretty good chance that we'll lynch one of

our own people

. If we skip the first round and only lose one of

the town

instead of two, then we can keep

the town

living longer.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't vote or lynch randomly. It'll most likely effect

the town.

Someone is trying too hard to appear protown.

Unvote, Vote liamcool

WIFOM, Xyl.

Since I don't feel like quoting everything he says (it's all scummy) I'll just

vote: the Fonz

and say that not suspecting newbies because they're new is retarded. Even if something is a "newbie tell", it still needs to be defended.

DS and Mills, stop fighting each other and vote egruntz.

Yes, after we lynch Fonz.

We have a fixed deadline and I really don't want to rush a lynch in the last week before it hits.

And it's better to rush a lynch now?

No, but we should have good ideas on who is scum before then. Hence, wagons.

sorry for the lack of posting guys but im back now. I still need to do a re-read but in reading this page Im not sure egruntz is scum.... he may just have a different play style then the rest of us. I've had a different playing style then the rest of the players in my previous game and ive had fingers pointed at me too.

No. Everyone plays differently, but that doesn't mean that tells based on play style are meaningless. Overall playstyles don't help, but game-by-game, it's a good thing to be suspicious of, if for no other reason than it provides pressure. Pressure is good.

Idea: Mills = Lyncher?

(just something that came to me just then)

Role fishing.

Are lynchers even possible in minimally flavoured games?

This is scummy. A bit.

Mills and Pirate both engage in role fishing. Not good!

FOS: Xylthixlm

No, not because he voted for me, but because he seems he wants to get the day done with, and skip right onto night. It's best to spend your time and gather the proper information before casting a vote, otherwise you could end up screwing your own team greatly. Why rush things when we've limited time, anyway? Why create a bandwagon just for the hell of it?

Not a scummy move, but something that grabbed my attention.

Hey,

Rudy Giuliani,

egruntz, stop flip-flopping on basic issues! Go see your first post. Then see this post.

But if we all can't agree on a definite mafia by that time, we'd best be off by not lynching at all, instead of taking our chances when it's, what, 3/18 against us?

But tomorrow, it'll be 3/17, or worse, and each day only gets us deeper in the hole until we HAVE to lynch scum or lose - a situation known as lylo. Once we reach this point, our odds of knowing who the scum are is the same zero.

@Egruntz, being a moron is not a playstyle.

Haha, and QFT.

Sufficiently bad idiots can be antitown without being scum.

But are they just antitown more than they're scum? I think it's more likely idiots will be scum.

...Fonz has been getting slightly more protown. This is good.

All right then. I have completed my reread and a couple of things jump out at me.
1: egruntz: I'm leaning towards townie at this point. No lynches are a terrible decision, but I think he seriously thinks it's best for the town, even though that may be wrong. He says it's his playstyle, and at this point I believe him. I'll be watching him closely because a playstyle like that throws up a red flag with me even if the rest of his posts look pro-town.

2: DS: This is the entirety of his posting

VOTE: OGML

Bandwagon to victory.

UNVOTE

VOTE: SNAPS THE PIRATE

Bandwagon to victory.

UNVOTE

VOTE: THE FONZ

More bandwagoning. Reasons to be given after Christmas.

I did a quick reread, and I'm not happy with how Bookitty jumped on egruntz for mentioning the term "No Lynch". egruntz wasn't really pushing for one, he just mentioned it. It seems like the sort of thing scum would do on day one: push for a mislynch on someone for nothing at all, really. So therefore,

UNVOTE

VOTE: BOOKITTY

Thank you, Elias. We need to keep these idiots in line.

Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present Exhibit A: numbskull at work.

LOLOLOLOL BURNT

These lesser individuals are quite fond of the word "lol" and have a habit of chaining them one after the other, in capital letters. Excessive use of "lol" is a clear sign of inferior mental capabilities. We really can't do much other than pity the fools.

@Bookitty: I was just bandwagoning. I thought there was something against The Fonz, but after a reread, there wasn't anything.

Mills has an easy task. All he has to do is stop being a first-class idiot and we will get along fine.

Bandwagoning, Bandwagoning, Bandwagoning, Bandwagoning by another name, calling Mills an idiot, calling Mills an idiot, defending the fact that all he did was bandwagoning while calling Mills an idiot.

This is unacceptable no matter who you are. You definitely have to take part in this, and shameless bandwagoning and calling someone an idiot as all you do just should not happen. That is how scum play.

vote: Disciple Slayer

Patch15: Where is that taking part in this game that you promised us 3 days ago?

Momentarily I will have my short summary of everyone else in the game.
Just my basic thoughts on them after my re-read.

The cow speaks the truth.

FoS: DS

By far, egruntz is still the scummiest; he's changed his opinion multiple times based entirely off pressure, and has done a good job of disguising it, but he's not done anything protown. He's had one real opinion, a scummy one, and everything else has just been blind following.

Vote: egruntz

[xyzzy]

oh, I did. Forgot to edit that out.

Unvote fonz, vote egruntz

/phail

[xyzzy]

Fonz:

As Xyl said, anything that hurts the town is scummy, regardlss of intention. Motives are important, but they're difficult to determine day one; pure scumminess is the most effective technique. Obviously we'll probably be wrong, but we get great info, and lynching someone for not being protown is almost always good for us in endgame.

[xyzzy]

Ok. If eteocles doesn't post

content

by monday, I will revote him. And if I don't like his contributions (meaning I find them scummy), I will revote as well.

I wholly agree that Eteo is looking really bad. That combined with the fact that his predecessor was acting scummy means there's a good chance of my vote moving to him if he doesn't do something protown.

[xyzzy]

Xyl, your argument against Panzer is weak, and Panzer has contributed a lot to the game. Other than the SK argument, Panzer hasn't really done anything noticably scummy.

How many hours are there until deadline? I'm definitely putting my vote on Eteocles if he doesn't have a VERY good excuse for lurking this much, plus a defense for why his predecessor wasn't so freaking scummy.

As in, almost certainly. I'm 99% convinced that Eteo is lurker scum.

[xyzzy]

Snaps, your arguments based on number of posts are a little invalid; a good player can post little but contribute more than others. See: Battlemage.

Bookitty, you're right - egruntz on that list does seem odd. I'm not sure it's voteworthy, but odd nonetheless.

[xyzzy]

Snaps, your arguments based on number of posts are a little invalid; a good player can post little but contribute more than others. See: Battlemage.

Are you saying Battle Mage is a good player?

No. I'm saying BM makes like 100 posts a day and is terrible.

[xyzzy]

Fos: the people who decided that it was better to just kill the scum quickly befor we could get any info out of them

.

I assume we don't have much scum left. How do ya'll suppose we're going to find them since we killed the one person who knew for sure before they could tell us anything useful? That was quite scummy.

[xyzzy]

I've been without interwebz (gasp! shock! horror!) for nearly a week; sorry for my absence. Will start catching up.

[xyzzy]

Snaps, you keep accusing everyone who doesn't post 20,000 times per day (yay hyperbole), but

is that really a scumtell

?

Are you willing to lynch someone based on how high their activity level is, or on how much they post? I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that the answer is "no", and that you're really just trying to start a wagon or two. If you get me lynched because I have a life beyond MS and I generally don't have the time to make massive posts analyzing the number of instances of the letter "m" a particular player uses, and why that proves they're obvious scum, does

that make me scum?

Is it

better

to invent random attacks on people than to post when it really contributes something?

I think you'll agree, if you're really acting on behalf of the town, that baseless attacks for the sake of looking protown aren't helpful, and to suggest that I'm scum because I choose to contribute only that which will actually help the town, does nothing useful - it only slows us down.

Cause the norm is 2 groups of 3..every game i've been in with 2 greoups has been 2 groups of 3.

Assuming that this game is remotely similar to anything else is really quite scummy - we have no reason to assume that anything about this game is "traditional". Knowledge about the setup is a really bad thing to guess at, and any good player should know that - but remember, the scum have MUCH more information about the setup, so for scum to suggest something like this usually seems quite rational.

FoS: Panzer

[xyzzy]

(Psst... I'm zz)

So far, in this game two scum have been found, neither of which were lurkers. I believe there is a good chance we still have lurker scum among us.

I don't remember what this logical fallacy is called, so I'll just call it the "you suck at stats" fallacy. Just because the scum shown so far were extremely active doesn't mean we're "due for lurkerscum", any more than we're due for a monster attack (they've been so rare recently!).

and it's if we eliminate one scum group, it's easier to weed out the second.

I'm beginning to think panzer is scum based on that and:

As to my musings of the setup, I have been saying that there are 2 groups of 3 all game. I cannot say much more right now with out giving to much of my thought process then I'm willing right now. I can promise that it will make sense in time, as most things do.

Panzer is likely in a scumgroup egruntz isn't in. Trying to eliminate the possibility of crosskills seems like a very good motive for suggesting that we reduce the information we get each day, and saying things like that about the scummy is just ugh.

Thinking snaps is scum, not sure with who yet. OGML might be scum, as people have suggested, and snaps-egruntz-OGML seems possible.

[xyzzy]

Xyzzy, I'm withholding information. Think Jdodge. Why would JD withhold information?

"I'm metagaming as scum and making up a dumb excuse. Appeal to authority!"

[xyzzy]

Panzer, when you removed that explanation from your butt, did it hurt?

[xyzzy]

Was that supposed to be a random burn?

I'd prefer actual responses. Also, you're scum.

Vote: panzer

[xyzzy]

Vote: Panzer

[xyzzy]

Cow, there is no such thing as "overreacting." This is, like, the most crucial rule ever. People who defend themselves vigilantly aren't scummy.

[xyzzy]

>.< didn't realise day 4 had started. I fail. Epic fail.

Vote: Snaps

Stop pretending to be useful. You've managed to completely avoid catching scum with your "lurker hunting".

vollkan, I agree with most of your PBPA, but on 11, why do you find it strange that someone could disagree with someone else but not vote them? That's not really too unusual.

[xyzzy]

Whereabouts are you referring to exactly?

Your most recent PBPA.

And you have managed to avoid scum catching with your constant lurking.

...I've caught you, scum.

But there hasn't been much scumhuning in this game because of people like yo creating needless noise. How do you expect anyone to effectively scumhunt when every other post is a new report of who's posting the least? Even if you're town, which I doubt, your behavior is destructive and won't help us in the long run. I'd rather see one more protown player die than have you lose the game in endgame because you don't understand what a real scumtell is.

[xyzzy]

vollkan, what are you trying to accomplish with this? I'm not entirely sure how it has any practical value - if we were catching SKs, it'd be a good idea, but lists of who are commiting what scumtells doesn't tell us who is who's buddy.

[xyzzy]

vollkan, what are you trying to accomplish with this? I'm not entirely sure how it has any practical value - if we were catching SKs, it'd be a good idea, but lists of who are commiting what scumtells doesn't tell us who is who's buddy.

1) Discussion
2) Adduces clear suspicions
3) Forces people to take some initiative
4) Potential for distancing tells

Why do you believe those will have a greater benefit to the town than the scum?

[xyzzy]

Also, lists that include the entire town are detrimental to town because they are giving a roadmap of who to kill. I would be glad, however, to give a list of top 3 possible scum.

This.

And Panzer certainly isn't off of my radar - I'm just much more sure about Snaps. And vollkan, while I'm not sure it's scummy, your adamance that scum have absolutely no way to use our analysis seesm slightly scummy, as if you're hoping for a nightkill roadmap. Knowledge of who feels others are town=helpful for scum, not so much for town.

[xyzzy]

Meta me if you want. You will find that I adore such lists and use them frequently. If you disagree with them, that's all well and good and I am sure we can debate ad nauseum. In themselves, however, they don't mean a thing regarding my alignment (nulltell, in other words).

So essentially, you're saying that because you always use lists, it's a null tell. So you're essentially a slightly more spohisticated VI?

[xyzzy]

You only need to look at the dirt which has surfaced on Panzer to see the benefit that forcing people to give their reasoning can do.

I agree completely, but I don't think listmaking is the most beneficial way to do this, since knowing who is most protown is

much

more useful for scum, and knowledge of who is acting scummy has only limited use to the scum.

[xyzzy]

A Panzer claim would be appropriate at this stage. Go ahead.

[xyzzy]

Agreed.

Vote: Panzer

[xyzzy]

I just know. Its gotta be.

Feels like backpedaling. The way he worded it earlier suggests that he knew 100%, without a doubt, and this is more like, "there's no way it can't be!"

Bussing is a risky strategy regardless of how many scumgroups there are, and the outcome is basically the same, unless, say, people decide that your buddy is scum with the

other

group.

[xyzzy]

Beginning to think TS might be scum, because of the "OMG PEG is scum because he distracted us from lynching Panzer with useful info!" thing. I'm 100% in favor of a Panzer lynch, but I'm okay with data.

[xyzzy]

EBWOP:

I'm thinking we have only 1-2 scum left based on the NKing. 2:2:14 with some power roles, or 2:3:13, while not exactly an easy win for scum, is certainly doable with the scum roles we've seen up until now - heck, small scum teams are often easier to win with, and 3:3:12 and further becomes very difficult for town very quickly. If we have a roleblocker or something, Xyl/snaps/someone else is slightly plausible, but it's very swingy.

[xyzzy]

But I did some hard work, but it looks like PEG distracted us from a Panzer wagon.

Obviously I paraphrased, but this sure sounds like you're saying PEG caused us to get off focus of a lynch.

[xyzzy]

Hmm...

Do people agree we should mass claim?

[xyzzy]

I think it's 2-2 - seems most plausible, balance-wise.

[xyzzy]

I think it's 2-2 - seems most plausible, balance-wise.

Then how do you account for the two kills last night?

A vig, probably.

[xyzzy]

No; I'm not claiming anything right now.

[xyzzy]

And then a full-claim?

[xyzzy]

posting shit later tonight

Good.

[xyzzy]

Honestly, that night was long enough that my thoughts on this game are a bit muddled - I don't remember why, but I like PEG (except for when he's not posting, which is annoying) and don't really like you. I should go reread >.>

[xyzzy]

Well, it seems I'm the only person alive who doesn't believe that everyone else is scum, and that some explainable but very odd wackiness is occuring.

I'm honestly not sure on this, but I like Rishi and PEG's playstyle, and I've never been a huge TS fan. I really don't feel confident about any potential vote, but I think my lack of confidence is least for TS. Please be scum. The only scum.

Vote: TS

[xyzzy]

I called that one wrong by not being paranoid enough.