Cultafia: Game over

[Skruffs]

Hai guys.

[Skruffs]

Posts 19, 20, and 21 are all horrible.

Fos : yosarian, armlx, curiouskarmadog

Drippinggoofball was SHOT, which is the MO of both the vig (if there is one) and the sk (if there is one). Neither of these roles are assured, but all three of these players in their first (or thereabout) posts seem to indicate the opinion, at least ,that there may not be a vig and there is an SK.

Fos fos fos. The only reason anyone could know that there is an SK and not a vig is if a cult recruited the vig last night.

Secondarily, I think 2 cults AND an sk seems like a bit much; if they were successful, then we just started the game with 33% scum and if we lynch wrong today, we wind up going to day 2 with 7/14(or 1 or 12) which is 50% scum which means an almost guaranteed scum win. I don't think a sane mod would use a setup which even, theoretically, COULD put the town in lylo day 1.

On to page two...

[Skruffs]

No, yos said as such in his opening post. I agree with his sentiment but not the reasoning with which he came to it .

[Skruffs]

(Re: someone claiming a power role)
-He is lying, so he is probably not pro-town and should be lynched
-He is telling the truth, and is probably going to be recruited, and should be lynched so it doesnt happen

This is insane. "We have to lynch you if you claim so that the cult's recruitment choice is kept random and unknown". Because why lynch someone who could be the RECRUITOR if we can lynch a future recruitee?!

Vote : Blazerunner

armlx states lynchign recruits is 'only better' than a mislynch... I am assuming he means until AFTER the recruitors are dead... me thinks armlx is a recruit (see page one suspicion too).

Yos playing ignorant, speaking as a group, building town support for himself.. not liking it... fearmongering ...

blazerunner is scum. "If we question pro-town players, what are the chances we'll lynch a recruitor"?! As far as I was aware, cult recruitors are players, just like town players.

blazerunner backtracking, throws out alarmist clause 'oh yeah'

Fos : Armlx, Yosarian2, Blazerunner

[Skruffs]

Are you confirmed in some manner, MNOWAX?
Why did you claim? Were you under pressure? Are you trying to draw Alarmist fire? Are you the SK and are hoping that there is no vig? Were you recruited last night and are trying to draw out killing role counter claims so as to help your cult win (possibly at your own expense?)

I isolated your posts and searched for "vig" until I saw you say "I am

a

vig". That's your claim.

Not the vig, but A vig, to allow yourself the possibility of pushing multiple vigs?

There's a lot more that needs to be said about this but I need to look at the rest of the game first.

[Skruffs]

Moved htis weekend, will post tomorrow!

[Skruffs]

PAge 3

Note: I am aware that a few people have claimed, but I have been really busy this last weekend so I forget who claimed vig or whatnot. I'll figure it out later, but that is actually going to help me read this with a clean slate. I Think MNOWAX and Blazerunner both claimed *something* but I forget what.

Armlx calls out Yos, for voting Blazerunner for OMGUS voting TheSilentSpeaker, who squirms delightfully and pulls up his 'official post' on OMGUS. The only way his post could be seen as applicable, though, is if he thought that A) TSS was town (or at least on his team) or B) he is twisting the normal OMGUS into something like this.

54-Blazerunner says the OMGUS wasn't an OMGUS, and then (appears) to dismantle his own case by explaining the basis for it. HE misses the point that if you lynch the cult-recruiter rather than trying to lynch people you think the recruiter will hit, those players are SAFE from being recruited. (fosfosfos)

56: vikingfan encourages targetting recruits. Pushes a "not many town can be recruited" theory, which is either a massive breadcrumb (which means he's one of only a few roles OR a cult recruitor) and tries to dismiss the risk we may be in. You shouldn't dismiss risk unless you know that it is not possible or don't want others tot hink it's possible.

Unvote, Vote : Vikingfan

Sidenote: Much like in VEngeful, the recruits are probably going to play like Goons to keep the Godfather (cult recruitor) safe. Inasmuch, the Cult Recruiter will probably (if town catches on to that) act like a recruit or like a townie.

Yos's 58: The setup takes pains to let everyone know what would happen if there are two cults (ie cult recruitors are unrecruitable) but there's nothing in the setup that would strongly indicate there is one recruitor or two, except for that line about the recruitors being unrecruitable.

Greggo's 59: This girl is smart, I Agree with her. (Finally I replace someone that has a similar reasoning as me!)

mnowax's 60 sounds pretty indignant. If I'm not mistaken, Mnowax claimed something already... Will find out with further reading I am sure, but

Note

to come back to this.

vikingfan's 61 is... nonsensical. Intentionally so? I'm glad I am voting him, he is cult.

armlx's 62 is a pretty good refute for MNOWAX, but if you want to look at this as prisoner's dilemma, we could pretty easily just play as normal until one cult recruiter is dead, and at that point, if a majority of players agree to it, the other cult recruitor could claim and we would all no-lynch until cult wins. But what would be the fun in that?

Blaze is scum, too. 64 confirms it. Pushing the lynching of claimed townies and then saying there ARE no claimed townies indicates that he is not a townie that might claim so. I can't think of why a townie would intentionally push a plan that would result in their own death AND hurting hte town and helping the cult at the same time. Later on saying "it is not such an absurd suggestion that only a cultist would do."slams the nail on the head. HE knows that it is a pro-cult suggestion, he is defending the non-cultiness of it which means he is aware of it.


Yos suggests that tcult recruiters will lurk and fosses mnowax for suggesting townies do the same. Actually... I will give Yosarian brownie points for this one

Note

but has YOS been lurking? Most of his play up to that point has been... defensive, right?


blaze stops defending himself, and starts pushing vig/sk talk. His 3 things ignored #4: Vig killed and there is no SK, and #5 SK killed there is no VIg, and #6 Vig killed nad SK chose not to. But that may have been him setting up his claim for later on.

note

Yos tells vanillas not to claim. WHy? IF forced to claim or die, you are requesting them to die. Why? Good catch on his 3-possibilities things, but why wouldn't you follow that up?


Blaze pushing "I'm not a cult, really guys" line, kind of dropping all other pretenses.This divulges into WIFOM as (in the post after he laid out his softclaim of vig) he starts asking if a good claim would 'save' him, even though claiming a role that is recruitable means nothing at this point, unless he is a cultist and is pulling attention away from his recruitor.


vikingfan AGAIN pushing the pro-cult agenda. "We may have the alarmist, don't worrrrrrry about it...."

armlx and blazerunner jabbing at each other....

On to page four!

Blazerunner starts off by suggesting that everyone voting him is town and that he could be really close to a lynch... (Why would only town be voting you if you ARE town, though? that's suggesting that scum aren't oppurtunistic, which is rarely the case on townie lynches, espcially on day one)

Mnowax picks up on his soft claim and votes him for it

Yosarian attacks Mnowax for this... this is interesting, he suggests that DGB may have been attacked by BOTH the vig and the SK although it says in the rules that any and all kill attempts would be noted, and since DGB only was shot once we know that she was only attacked by one playe r(successfully, anyways). HE begins to pry Mnowax about what he knows; if Blazerunner was fake-soft-claiming, this is Yosarian trying to get a claim out of Mnowax, since Mnowax 'took the bait', which means if one is cult, the other probably is, too. The last bit about 'why would we kill the SK?" might be considered an additional defense of Blaze as something OTHER than cult recruitor - which is intriguing. I can't imagine the cult recruitor would defend a lowly recruit (even a recruited vig if that WERE the case) like that, which implies that yosarian might be the recruit.

but now Viking is defending blaze too. AARRGGH! Cults stick together, I guess.





armlx votes Blaze even after Yos's 'would we want to lynch the SK at this point' sugestion, which means he is either voting for what he sees as a vig or what he sees as an SK. Neither of which (I have to agree with Yos here) are good lynches; a claimed SK becomes the cult(S)'s KILL target n1, which prevents them from recruiting, which helps town.

Cultists: Blazerunner, Vikingfan, armlx, Yosarian2

yosarian plays deaf and dumb... more fossing necessary

armlx helps Mnowax's claim of Watcher - but why Watcher and not Tracker? and later then has second thoughts and warns against anyone hammering. WHy would he out what he sees as a claimed power role, though?

vikingfan being scummy again...


CKD just shot up there by asking if Mnowax would be willing to be lynched if Blaze comes up town.... *fosfosfos*

viking being MORE scummy... seriously... he needs to die

Page 5

yos reasserts his SK thing, although he's been hiding out ever since blaze was 'caught', a dramatically different appproach.

blaze follows up on CKD's line of thought and says Mno is digging his own grave...

Note though: if Blaze is the cult recruitor and MNO tracked/watched/etc, then his action failed because DGB was killed the same night as she was recruited, so even if he was tracked to her, (Which is the only possibility as a watcher would provide TWO names and not one), it isn't indicating that he killed her, as MNOWAX is implying, which, if he IS A power role, is remarkably silly to overlook.

Ah. Yos kind of just summed that up in 119.

occult and Spring come out of left field... occult, saying mno may not be the best lynch for the day, completely ignoring EVERYTHING else... fosfosfos

blaze ends page five much like the bush administration. Deny everything and blame the reporters.

Blaze redeems himself partially by 'giving MNO a chance' to explain himself, so long as that explaining doesn't involve claiming investigations. IE he's saying MNO could just be a very confident but misguided townie. But then he votes for him anyways; which defeats the point of saying that in the first place.

OCcult comes back with more suspicion of MNO, avoiding blaze entirely.

note

Yos misspelled "Hear" as "here" in 132. I think that might be a scumtell for him. *Fosfosfos*

Blaze is pushing the 'I have a night action but didn't use it on DGB' train, which he has been doing since page three. Sidenote: If Blaze is the SK and was planning on claiming VIG, then MNO might be the cult recruiter who tried to recruit Blaze and failed n0. Alternatively, Occult could be Blaze's recruit(er) and that is why he's lurking hardcore and pushing the mno's scum angle.

137 - When did Malthus replace intot he game? He points out that Blaze erred in saying there was mafia but ignores the underlying point : That blaze is worried that Mno is a scum (ie another scum team) who is trying to bus him.

141 -Curious what YOS meant in this post; who is he implying is the scum recruit, mnowax or blaze?

144- mypenguin;'s first post to the game, and it's kind of scummy. "This person isn't contributing enough" - and htat's it. *fos*

147-occult being distracting...

page 7!

154-yos pushing Blaze as vig, sk, or recruit (not recruiter) again...
155- FOS ckd pushing Blaze to claim vig... and then says he believes his(who, mno's?)
claim....?????
Pushing claiming iwthout scumhunting equals *fos* but he is turning attention to Viking, who is more likely scum than either of those two (for lurking and such)

Note

160, interesting

Note

161-interesting

Note

164-Blaze redeems himself!

*fos: armlx*

occult jumps at the chance to save blaze... yeah. Not good there.

armlx declares neither mno or blaze is recruitor, which is categorically unable to be said.

Cult: Occult, Armlx, vikingfan, yos2

174: nice introductory post by nabnab.. and I will post this now as I have other things do to!
Next: Page 8 onwards!

[Skruffs]

@Skruffs: HOLY CRAP! That post is enormous. I'll wait until you finish your read before commenting and/or starting an argument.

That's very thoughtful of you. <3

[Skruffs]

Still catching up - I really think directing a claimed vig towards a recruit is bad, unless we think the recruit is actually a cult leader claiming both a power role AND a recruited power role. In as much, focusing deaths on recruits helps hte cult leader get a NEW recruit. Has anyone wondered who would recruit blazerunner? Do cult leaders generally recruit people they think they can trust, or unknown pepole to distance, or what?



I need to catch up from page 9 onwards, still, I just hopped on to comment on what I see in this page.

[Skruffs]

Yosarian - have you done anything else EXCEPT offer sound, pro-town advice?

[Skruffs]

Okay.
Two shooters, so mnowax as vig is legit - otherwise he would have been shot by the real vig.

Apparently blazerunner decided not to block mno after all, otherwise he would not have been shot. Am I missing something or does that make sense?

Also, Blazerunner claims to have blocked TSS night 1? That would mean Mnowax did kill DGB, or else, TSS isn't the SK, one of those two.

[Skruffs]

IF Mno was blocked (likely) and there are no redirectors (there aren't) then we could have up to four vigs, or a vig and two SKs (which means TSS might be an sk after all) or two vigs (who didn't go night one) and an sk.

The mod should clarify how someone will die if two cults attempt to recruit someone the same night; it seems unlikely to be burnt to a crisp OR shot, more likely some sort of heart attack or aneurism or something.

modmodmomdodmodmo

[Skruffs]

Another possibility is that TSS is the SK, was roleblocked, and one of hte vigs shot DGB night one.

There's no reason for a vig or an sk to hit mnowax - either he is a vig and thus can help with the cult menace, or, he is a recruit and is thus not the source of hte cult menace. Why they decided, instead, to go after a claimed recruit/roleblocker doesn't make sense, though. I Would say tha tif an SK killed last night, they probably hit blazerunner. Vikingfan's hit (to me anyways) seems more like a vig kill, even if it turned out to be bad for town. Of course, I called Vikingfan a cult all day yesterday, do.


Why do you think cultists would be likely to recruit "experienced quality players"? Wouldn't they be more likely to recruit players that can fly under the radar? and are you insinuating that I'm not cult-worthy? Considering you used your own experience with players to determine if they are culted or not, should we assume that the cult has your input in the manner?

[Skruffs]

2b, the one I think is most likely:Mnowax was town yesterday, and was telling the truth now. But after he claimed vig, he became a likely cult recruit. So the theory I think is most likely is:

Mnowax was pro-town yesterday
He killed Blaze last night, just like he said he would
Then he got recruited
Now that he's been recruited, he's become scum, and has decided to lie in order to try and get me lynched.

That's the most likely theory, I think.

Why, then, was Blaze's block of him ineffective? Blaze is confirmed pro-town roleblocker, not recruited (or was killed before recruiterd, but that doesn't effect his play yesterday) - he 'true claimed' in twilight and said he would block MNOWAX, and there is no reason to think he wouldn't do that, considering that the rest of his post was also true.

I'm more willing to believe MNOWAX is a cult-recruiter and blazerunner was SK'd or vigged by someone else than that mnowax was recruited last night. What would it benefit the cult to recruit (Rather than vaporize) a claimed vig/sk anyways?

[Skruffs]

Something that *does* make sense is that Mnowax might be a cult recruiter, tried to recruit Yos, and was blocked, so failed, and took that to mean that Yos is a cult-recruiter or SK since those two factions avoid the first NK attempt on them and are also cult-immune. Doesn't mean a thing about Yos's role, though.

[Skruffs]

I can't figure out if hjaltill's scum partner is mnowax or yosarian.
Mnowax is saying "if you lynch me you will see I'm not lying!" Because he's inferring he would turn up town-vig.

Mnowax: I think that the consensus is that you were roleblocked and so, no matter what you are/were, you didn't try to kill anyone.


I also don't like the "I need to review, can someone tell me what to think" mindset mentioned previously on this page.

[Skruffs]

unvote, vote hjallti

[Skruffs]

armlx, mnowax, you are asking me why I am voting who I am voting?

[Skruffs]

[quote="HjalltiI am pretty sure mnowax is not town, and not my faction.

Interesting choice of words there.

Mno is just being dumb and frustrated at this point, which is a pretty null tell.[/quote]

You are the one who pointed the reason out to me, armlx. Why did you forget so quickly? I also notice that other than that, you haven't said anything to or about hjallti the entire game. Why is that?

[Skruffs]

I am pretty sure mnowax is not town, and not my faction.

Interesting choice of words there.

Mno is just being dumb and frustrated at this point, which is a pretty null tell.

You are the one who pointed the reason out to me, armlx. Why did you forget so quickly? I also notice that other than that, you haven't said anything to or about hjallti the entire game. Why is that?

Fixed, Armlx's original quote was botched a bit.

[Skruffs]

And, sorry for hte run on posts, but he also hasn't sai d anything to or about you, armlx.

[Skruffs]

Amlx - you and the person he replaced also didn't discuss each other.


You quoted the thing from hjltill, didn't comment on it except to bring attention to it,a nd then questioned why someone else brought it up.

It really does not bother me if you are 'unimpressed' by me. I'm actually used to people using my 'lack of reason' as an excuse to ignore me - IF you want, I will compile a list of the percentage of people who say stuff like that and turn out ot be scum.

I am interested, not in your focus on only targeting cult-recruiters, but in your demand for significant amounts of proof from other people to explain why they are focusing on cult recruiters.


I'm kind of curious about your attitude - you seem to be rather lofty and comfortable in the position you are in. Why?

Also, you did talk about hjalltill in another post:

Hjallti's last post is very logical, though I'm wondering how Yosarian missed his list of experienced quality players. I have a pretty good idea why this could be true, but I want to hear his answer.

The TSS being SK thing makes a lot of sense now as well given that, with Blaze's block and all.

Pretty sure mno's anti-Yos logic is just wrong.

No clue who are possible cult leaders, only some thoughts on who probably isn't.

I think it's interesting that you have no problem criticizing other people's attempts at pushing things, but you yourself admit that you have no leads. You criticize me, apparently, for suggestuing you should 'auto-know' my reasons for doing things, but YOUR attitude is that you do not have any intentions of investigating motivations and such, yourself. Which is why I am asking if you can be so comfortable in your place in the game as to be so critical of others and unhelpful yourself.


Hjaltill - you are mirroring Armlx's opinion of me, and asking if I have any "real leads" - what does that mean? I am assuming if you have the luxury of demanding real leads, from me, that you yourself also have real leads? Could you please provide them?

Secondarily: What you should have wrote is very much different from what you did write. The first one is informative; it has two separate subjects. The revision, though, is clunky, redundant, and obtuse. Not town and thus not your faction - why would you, as town, go to the effort of putting in the equivalent of "He is not town, unlike me, who is town."

No, I don' think you mis-wrote it at all; I think you were thinking in the back of your head that he was a vying cult recruiter.


I think the reaction I got from two other players for voting Hjallti is very interesting. It might even be considered "A lead".


to both of you: If you are going to demand leads from players and dismiss them if they do not provide leads up to 'your standards', you are inherently required to provide leads, yourself. Armlx, you yourself have openly admitted you do not have any leads. Since you do not have anything to go on, you should be advancing other people's leads to see if they have merit, not trying to say they are not good enough. Unless you are scum fishing for a cop; or a cult recruit defending his recruitor.

[Skruffs]

I think that people, if they are going to criticize the 'quality' of other player's probings and cases, should at the very least offer their own in return.

Not doing so leads to a game of entropic destabilization.

IF one person is pushing a case, and three people hop in and say "Your reasoning is not good enough to continue pushing this case", then that player either pushes MORE, at risk of becoming an easy counter wagon, OR, they drop the case.

If the three people who say "Your reasoning is not good enough" do not offer cases of their own, then in effect, all they are doing is prohibiting the discovery of more information. they don't *know* that the lead is bad; by discouraging it, they are in fact potentially trying to protect the person that the first person is probing at.

Case in point:
Armlx murmurs about vikingfan being 'the right call', but then abruptly shifts to SpringLUllaby after a wagon formed on her. Even in defending it, he used another player's reasoning as the basis for his own vote.

So for him to attack me for not offering a good enough case, that's very, the picture I get is of a middle ages king, reclined on his thrown and being offered grapes. Should he eat these grapes? No, those are too sour. How about these? No, they haven't been skinned. Being the king, he has the luxury of only nibbling on the BEST grapes; and, obviously, he's not going to go out and PICK Them himself.

It's 'lofty', it is the only way I can use to describe it.

Or, I Guess you could say he is playing completely under the radar, which is funny because that was his reasoning for voting SL - for playing under the radar until she came under fire. Since he thought she was scum, and he is doing the same thing, he must have been attributing his own role to her.

OR maybe I'm just wildly postulating. At this point, I don't care. I'm too flashy and lynchable to be recruited by a cult, so I might as well talk my head off until the SK shoots me.

[Skruffs]

I'm saying that you should NOT consider yourself to be a king. You should consider yourself ot be one of the farmers who are wallowing around in the crap and harvesting grapes. If we all pluck grapes, and compare them, then yes, we can throw out the bad ones.

But the fact that my theories are the ones gettingthe most attention, as crappy as they are, suggests that there are a lot of people who are content to lay back - like you are doing - and let other people do the work.

I think that you should offer what you have, wether it's solid or not. Maybe you, even if you don't have a solid case, can see something that I have missed. That's why I am talking about what I am talking about. No, I do'nt expect anyone to be lynched off of the stuff I've said. But, maybe I've seen something about someone that others have missed; they can then look at it themselves.


You want fully developed theories and you are unwilling to help build them yourself.

I'm pretty sure that's a scumtell.

[Skruffs]

Which you then questioned me on, because you don't think it's much of a tell.

[Skruffs]

Which makes me wonder, why are you looking so shallowly at things if you want good, deep, meaty cases to chew on.

[Skruffs]

Explain how I'm not making sense, then.
At least you are confirming that I *was* making sense to you before - even though you were saying I didn't make sense, then, too.

[Skruffs]

This debate is a bit silly. Skruffs, if you make a bad argument, people can, will, and should point out that it's a bad argument. That's one of the things pro-town people should pretty much always do. If you think it's bad that someone else isn't making cases of their own, and want to attack them for it, that's fine; but the fact that someone else isn't making cases is NOT a defense against you making an illogical case.

I agree with you, to a point. Perhaps my vote on Hjaltill isn't the strongest case in the world. Perhaps it *is* flimsy - I am not necessarily that I have a true-blue case on him. However, I do not see what gives Armlx the right to think that he can tell other people their cases suck while conveniently not contributing any of his own. What is the end result of a playstyle like that?

Armlx:
Way to avoid the entire rest of my post.

Vollkan:
Please show where armlx's criticizing of me reveals his reasoning. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just calling your bluff and asking you to show by example what you are saying.

I also agree that criticisms and counter criticisms are an excellent way to play the game - which is why I am pointing out that Armlx is intentionally avoiding leaving himself up to criticism by only relying on other players to provide the basis of his opinions.

Lastly: If the point is not strong and is crushed, but iut was right regardless, is it still a good thing? Because now you have three players who are not contributing of their own, and one player who no longer wants to contribute, and, presumably, there winds up being a nolynch. Or, since only one player has offered an opinion, the other three would eventually wind up lynching that player - since there is no reason to lynch one of their own. I'm just extrapolating your "it's all good" scenario.

Beep! Beep! - Oh hi, this will be fun.
springlullaby - Oh hi, this will be fun.

Two of my still-alive players from Contagion. These two lovely ladies know how to go the distance in forum games.

[Skruffs]

EBWOP: "I am not necessarily *saying* that I have"

[Skruffs]

Vollkan:
Please show where armlx's criticizing of me reveals his reasoning. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just calling your bluff and asking you to show by example what you are saying.

I also agree that criticisms and counter criticisms are an excellent way to play the game - which is why I am pointing out that Armlx is intentionally avoiding leaving himself up to criticism by only relying on other players to provide the basis of his opinions.

Don't try and be clever. He called you out asking you to

present reasons

and you declined. In effect, you insulated yourself from criticism. Asking me to show where he criticised your reasons is

prima facie

a disingenuous question. You weren't arguing about each other's

reasons

- you were arguing about your

lack of

reasons.

But, of course, don't get me wrong. If armlx plagiarised your reasons I would take him to task for it. If he criticised your reasons in a dodgy manner - that too I would take him to task for.

No, he said my reasons weren't good enough. So I Asked him where his reasons were and pointed out that he has been tailcoating on other people the entire game. You defended him by saying that people criticizing other people shows their reasons.

I then asked to prove by example, showing me where Armlx's reasonings were, and you admitted he had none by saying "Don't try to be clever.' I looked at Armlx and tried to find his reasons in the way you said I Would, I Couldn't, I asked you to, calling your bluff, and now I'm 'trying to be clever'. But it seems to me that you used an empty excuse to defend him with.


ANd, no, actually... HE was arguing with the QUALLITY of my reasons for attacking Hjlltill, but I at least presented mine. If you want to call them flawed, that's fine. But Armlx is hte one with his own reasons for doing things, and you still haven't asked my questions; instead you just reacted with a (I think) very defensive blustery post.


So again: Please, vollkan, show me where you can see Armlx's reasoning?

You also say that his criticism can help find scum: When one person tells another their case is flawed, it only makes the original player look bad for attempting to scumhunt. If nobody else is trying to scum hunt, then the original player winds up getting lynched for 'flawed scum hunting', like I mentioned earlier.

I do'nt know if that was in this game though, because in basically all of my games I have simultaneously had people use a basic "Skruffs makes no sense" default argument against anything I say - I even changed my location to reflect that, a week or two. I do'nt know why, because I *am* earnestly doing my best in all of my games, and yet it seems that word is getting around that a quick and easy way to discredit me is just to say I don't make sense.

Anyways, that aside...

Vollkan, you said you could see Armlx's reasoning in his criticism of me and when I Asked you to prove it you got snippy. I'm going to ask again to explain armlx's reasoning based on the posts he had that led you to say that in the first place. And if you want to say I am getting clever, then remember that YOU are the one who introduced that as a form of defense for Armlx.


Also: I am criticizing Armlx for not trawling the thread for evidence, and he is criticizing me for not trawling the thread WELL enough.

and

"If I were to implant myself as one of the three, for instance: If it dawned on me that somebody was not pulling their weight, then I would pounce on them. "

So you think I am not pulling my weight, but he is, right? Because you are focusing on me and not him. Please explain where he pulled enough weight for you to take his side against me.

[Skruffs]

Beep! Beep! - It's just business as usual.Me vs da woild. It's a cult game, I was hoping to replace in as a cult recruitor, I wound up not. My personality is going to scare away any hopes of being recruited, so I expect to be SK'd, Vig'd, or microwaved tonight or tomorrow night. But at least I'm leaving a niec public trail for investigation into later! Trying to out the scum.

[Skruffs]

Except you aren't waiting for something to catch your eye, or you would encourage even the weak leads that I am presenting. You would be cultivating discussion, not slashing it's hamstrings. Do you understand why I am suspicious of you?

[Skruffs]

The thing is; his whole point, underneath the "your reasoning is not sufficent" is that *I* need to convince *HIM* of a point, and that he feels no impetus as a player to convince anyone else of HIS point.

IF nobody is making ANY points, why would i, as 'potential scum', draw attention to myself by bringing up a dodgy case? IF I say nothing, it is likely that Mnowax or someone else gets lynched.

As it is, you yourself have already started to push the wagon onto me, which is exactly what I predicted - in an absence of anyone else scum hunting, the person who scumhunts at all, weakly, winds up being the main target. I was aware of that before I even voted hjltill.


I understand that you think my vote on Hjaltill makes him not at all more scummy.
However, I do'nt see where you have analyzed Amrlx at all in explaining what his reasoning is. His reasoning was that my post ewas insubstantial: Well, that's great, I'm glad you figured that out, considering that was basically the first line of his post.

Now show me where armlx stands, other than what I have pointed out: That he expects others to provide reasoning for him to follow without providing any of his own.

Has his words and/or actions suggested otherwise?

You are arguing that I have a crap case, that's fine. A crap case can lead to a good case, or a counter case, or something else. Instead of working with the crap case to put pressure or investigation onto Hjaltill, who is in fact no longer inthe game after a single vote against him which was angrily criticized by more players than any other single vote has done in the game so far, or to examine the players that seem to have a vested interest in defending hjaltill, you are working to argue against hte premise that a case is crap, should be stopped, and that the player who posted it is likely scum.

I apparently opened a can of worms: And you have provided to me reasoning as well. IF Hjaltill DOES turn out to be a cult recruiter later in the game, I really hope that the reactions he got from my vote on him leads players to inspect both armlx and yourself. But, at your request, and armlx, I will

Unvote

and look for a 'logical case' that will appease Your Lordships to the point that you wuil not criticize me for ACTUALLY TRYING To find scum.

You guys can just, I dunno, continue to yell at people for not satisfy your demands. HAve fun with that.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs, why is it owed to you to "work with the crap case to put pressure on Hjallti"? Why is he more worthy of being pressured than, say, Occult? Especially since, and here's the point you're missing, from the standpoint of any third party the fact that crap cases are being made against Hjallti in the first place may suggest that scum wants him dead. Now I don't think this is a strong point against in this game -- for one thing, more unrecruitables are scum themselves than town, and there's not that much reason to want people gone for their rasoning at this point in this game if they aren't unrecruitable -- but armlx isn't completely wrong.

My main suspect from yesterday was Occult, and I still think that is a fruitful line, For the other? Idunno. I'll need to separate vikingfan and vollkan in my head to better sort out what each one said yesterday (I'm sure I suspected viking, who is now dead town, but I may have been wary of vollkan out of misattribution). But vollkan is right about the 'conspiracy theory' objection.

Yes, but you forget, armlx only wants cases against players if they are based on finding cult recruiters,a nd no others. He also apparently has no way of discerning wether someone is a cult recruitor or not.


I picked Hjaltill because until I voted him, he hadn't really been part of hte scene. Now I know the players who didn't like the idea of voting him. Like I said, if he turns up as a cult recruiter, this will look badly on the others.

Why was your suspicions on OCcult yesterday? And apparently the opinion you have of him hasn't been editted or revised based on the additional information we have on three(?) other player's roles since you were first suspicion of him, so it must be pretty strong.

I'm not saying you don't have a rason or anything, but I Think if you are going to criticize me for 'having a crap case', and then you just say that occult is suspicious iwth no backup, that's being hypocritical. I'm sure, though, that is not the case... so why not share your suspicions? Update the rest of hte players int he game with why you want to focus on Occult.

[Skruffs]

Note the italicized. He makes sure that he lets us know that both a vig and a SK exists. This is not an open game, were not sure of the existence of the roles. How did he find out this information? No i am not a tracker. No i am not a watcher or alarmist. I am a Vig. I didn't kill last night because i wanted to make sure i had a kill for night one of this game. Therefore, There IS a SK in this game as well as me, and although there will be an attempt to kill me, i will finish off Blaze in the night. If i happen to get recruited, i will spout the name of my leader immediately, So if you don't want me around, you must kill me. I only say this because were getting close to lynch( i believe) and i want all my information out on the table before i die.

Beep! Beep! - do you think mnowax is a cultist, SK, vig, or cult-recruiter?

[Skruffs]

Skruffs, why is it owed to you to "work with the crap case to put pressure on Hjallti"?

Also, I wanted to turn this around:
Why are you not asking Armlx, "Armlx, why is it owed to you to "have cases made for you"?"
When someone says that other peole have to vye for his vote, he is effectively saying he has no intentions of trying ot help town.


NabNab, thanks for the vouch to my character. While I do feel my honor is slighted I am not actively trying to defend it. I generally put out cases that probably don't hold water - I can at least admit that. But I think it's incredibly scummy for someone to focus on players putting out fake cases, demanding more from them *And not offering cases of their own* - they put themselves in a position of zero risk by trying to get other players to do their dirty work - and taking on the burden of being a target if their dirty work is wrong or accurate - for them. That's a technique I Think a cult -recruitor would want to try, to try and get peoplpe not in his faction arguing against each other while he quietly recruits on the side.

Anyways, I'll try to lay off of that angle but I Think it *is* something that is being ignored/overlooked.

[Skruffs]

Also:
Remind me if things start to lull again to look at how players reacted to Blaze claiming recruit. Any cult leaders would have thought that Blaze was recruited by the 'other cult' - and if someone soon after introuced the idea of two cults that may be an accidental bread crumb.

[Skruffs]

Thanks for the check through for me, armlx, nab.

Nab: Was that directed at me? If so, why?

TSS: I disagree. I haven't compared the 'validity' of voting Hjltill for his grammar slip up to other votes people have had today (or day one), but I did notice that the reaction was immediate and kind of unexpected. Wether it was a fake case or not, I think there were reactions that should be noted IF hjtill shows up as scum later on in the game.

Welcome to the game Quinton.

[Skruffs]

My point is that someone who is criticizing another for 'not pulling their own weight', and is at the same time is relying on other people to form cases FOR THEM to review, is in fact criticizing OTHER players for not pulling THEIR OWN weight.

Town should never depend on other players to make cases FOR Them. Scum do that. Town doesn't have the luxury of knowing who to trust.

[Skruffs]

Armlx is not scum in this game.

Do you mean he is not a cult recruitor, a recruitee, OR an SK?

[Skruffs]

My point is that someone who is criticizing another for 'not pulling their own weight', and is at the same time is relying on other people to form cases FOR THEM to review, is in fact criticizing OTHER players for not pulling THEIR OWN weight.

I think what you meant to say is that someone who is criticising other people for not pulling their weight whilst, simultaneously, relying on others for cases to review is not pulling their weight.

I agree. I don't see the relevance of that though. We have:
1) You making a dodgy case and not 'pulling your weight'
2) Armlx making scant contribution other than criticising your case's lack of 'weight'

Neither of those is a good thing, and neither justifies the other. Armlx not pulling his weight does not legitimise you rejecting his "demand for significant amounts of proof from other people".

You got that wrong. I *never* have to legetimize a rejection of someone else's demand that I do ANYTHING for them. I have no obligation to do ANYTHING for armlx or anyone else who tells me to make cases for them to follow. What you should have said was that him not pulling his own weight does not justify me making dodgy cases, which would actually have applied, IF he had demanded I make a case before I made a dodgy one.

[Skruffs]

Hi, sorry, been busy.

First, mnowax, what's up with the big red X?

Second, where does the TSS is an SK talk comes from?

Now, I think Skruff's full fledged 'I'm defending my honor' post is definitively off. Only, why do you guys who have been needling at him extensively haven't voted him?

Also, what struck me at the end of D1, when I realized that I had possibly misinterpreted stuff, were the people 'on my side'. Skruff kinda counts in that category. So does aioqwe, I'd like him to explain this:

The more this continues the more inclined I am to believe armlx/yos. Personally I wouldn't call it mindless puppy following. That's more like people who just pop in to post QFT! or whatever.

beep beep, if you say that armlx is not scum, what do you think of what she's been saying about me/my predecessor?

Vote: skruff

Someone else insinuated I Was defending my honor, not me. My post was reflecting on that suggestion and seeing if it held any truth.

WHy the vote, all of a sudden?


Yos:
I will try not to rehash what I've said over and over again; obviously my poisiont in this argument is my own and I'm not going to bend to the will of other people.

Regardless of the reasoning of why I voted Hjtill, I think that some of the reactions I got were more vested in defending him then they should have been. Vollkan and Armlx, to be precise, attacked my case while at the same time,a nd I've pointed this out, offering none of hteir own. Their intentions, to me, seemed clear : They were defending Hjltill and had no obvious (to me) reason to be doing so.

If Hjltill was a cult recruiter, that would explain their actions. If they were all masons together, I do not see why they would out all of themselves to defend another - even if Hjltill was the steadfast mason, sacrificing the entire group to save one doesn't make sense.

Hjltill quickly resigned from the game afterwards, and has not been replaced, I do not think. I do not know if that means anything in regards to his alignment, or not, but if he was a cult recruiter and armlx and vollkan are his recruits, then if I was in his shoes, then it would seem VERY obvious to me what was going on and I would understand him wanting to replace out rather than giving up on a lost cause. He's not a very experienced player so he may nto realize that there are things called 'rebounds'.

I think that regardless of my own feelings of Hjltill, that I have received some recent attention that is probably NOT from his organization (if there is one and I am right), but may be from other players who want to keep attention on those three players after I die. This entire statement is based more on 'a hunch' and emotions and what I see those interactions as causing, but I could be wrong.

Was anyone in this game Scum in "Assasins in the Palace"? Because the situation is reversed here. In this game, there are (possibly) "kings" (cult recruitors) who are guarding themselves with more and more bodyguards. All of the rest of us are 'assassins' (except without the nifty-death-vengeful-stuff) who are trying to find out who the kings are.

Can anyone offer any pointers?

[Skruffs]

Vollkan -
I just noticed you haven't voted, yet, at all this game. Is there a specific reason for that?

[Skruffs]

Why?

[Skruffs]

The reason I ask is because I just explained why I think it's likely he is a cult recruit (Along with you, no less) and that I think he is defending his cult recruitor. What about him has given you the impression that he is more likely a cult recruitor than Hjtlill? I ask you personally because you have been using that as your solo guiding point in whether or not someone is scum.

[Skruffs]

The only good meta on me is that townie players who play with me for the first time always misconstrue me as scum, and scum players (especially those who have played with me before) always try to capitalize on it.

That said, I sense a growing, condensing cloud of anti-skruffs sentiment, and SL has abanbdoned posting in the game, apparently, since I Asked her to explain why she voted me out of the blue and that was a day or two ago. Now she posted in two other games since then (on tuesday) but has avoided or forgotten about this one. SL has played in games with me before; so I'm more curious about it than anything else. She's picked up on armlx vollkan and yosarian's goadings and was trying to be the first on the wagon. Anyways, paranoia aside, let's look at the rest of this..

I like how armlx is goading vollkan into voting me or else getting voted himself.

I like how vollkan and armlx both already 'knew' that hjltll was town before I even voted him, which is why they defended him so stringently in the first place, and yet neither of them can concisely explain why.

The thing is, Skruffs, when someone attacks your argument, you basically have two options. You can either defend your ARGUMENT, continue to argue that it is valid despite their objections, or you can drop or downplay your argument and move on to something else. What you did was to basically question someone else's right to question your argument, and that's not only badly logically flawed, it would be bad stratagy.

I don't agree with you there; I pointed out that someone who spends their time trying to dismiss other players arguments without offering counter arguments: Just saying "Not good enough for me", in short - was not good. He has every right to question my argument - But he wasn't questioning it. There was no curiosity there. He was not questioning it. HE WAS SAYING IT WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR HIM and dropping it. Very different. I don't like how you haven't picked up on that yet. Or, if you have, why you are trying to make the situation look different than it was.

And then you kept arguing the point endlessly, even though you were, well, pretty much wrong; everyone has the right to question anything said by anything else, or else the game of mafia dosn't really work well. Frankly the whole "argument about arguing about arguments" was so drawn out and pointless it kind of make me forget what your origional argument was in the first place, and I honeslty don't really care anymore either.

EVery time he said ! to me, I replied with B - you are not attacking him for constantly bringing up the same point, so why are you directing it solely at me? And actually, I have attempted to move past it - but then when I do, other players move it RIGHT BACK to where it was and try to keep it there. You didn't

I don't really think that's a scum tell in your case, but I don't think the argument is helpful, and you (and the town) would have been better off if you had either kept it on a relevent topic "like "is X scum", or else if you had just dropped it.

Well, I think regardless of if you think it's a scum tell in any case, that you are misconstruing the situation anyways, so iti's nto a valid tell, non tell, scum tell, town tell, or anything.

Are you saying that I should have kept it on the topic of "Is Hjltill scum?" Because I have been doing that - I used the information that my vote created, I analyzed it, and I have explained why I think it's likely that hjltilll is scum. Different case, but based on the information gathered from the 'first instance'. If I had just dropped it, then I wouldn't be scum hunting, I'd be random voting. So actually, regardless of the flak I am getting, and wether I am following yours or anyone elses' 'rules of scumhunting', I think I am doing things just the way I do things, and that's really the only way that *i* can be confident that what I am doing is 'working'.

Vollkan:

You are telling me to "admit that I am wrong". You seem to "know" that hjlktill is not a scum recruitor, and I Am glad that YOU, in whatever role you are, KNOW that to be the case. Basically the same thing goes to you as what I just said to Yosarian2. Your biggest criticism of me seems to be that I am not posting a case, when in fact, the 'case' I posted, which you immediately scorned, has generated a GOOD bit of discussion with at least half the players in the game involved. You think I am obstinant and that I "defend the undefendable" - I really don't think that voting Hjltilll for saying "this guy is not town and he's not part of my faction" was an UNDEFENDABLE vote. I think that, in the situation we were in, with the discussion that was going on; IE was mnowax stupid roleblocked town vig or recruited successful vig - was basically an exercise in WIFOM that wasn't going to result ina cult recruiter being lynched, regardless.

Hjltill said that, it was brought up, I put a vote on him and almost immediately afterwards, he replaced out of the game, fuming.
Springlullaby comes in, votes me without really explaining why, and you are still attacking me for what you see as an 'undefendable' vote.

I think you are exaggerating what you see as a point against me (that I voted without a proper case behind it) to such a degree that I will no longer be seen as credible, and if I wind up getting lynched, YOU will no longer be seen as credible. Since I think you are playing fall guy for Springlullabye - and Armlx is helping you with that by deflecting attention onto you instead of her - then even if you get lynched tomorrow (Which would be unlikely) you still have other players on your team.

See originally you said that the whole reason you were attacking me was because you didn't like the way I presented the case. But now... now you are saying that you think Hjltill is town, and that's why you are defending him. But if you really thought he was town, wouldn't the smart thing to do, would have been to defend him in the first place, instead o attacking me for not having 'a good case' on him? By attacking me directly instead of defending him, you were saying you didn't want to be publicly tied to him. But now you've turned up the heat, now you are publicly tying yourself to hjltill/ SL, by saying you thought he/she was town all along - which is not something you said originally - you actually left your OWN feeling/thoughts about hjtill/SL out of the arguments when you first started attacking me. Maybe it's because you feel SL is town that you have completely ignored that she voted me without posting reasons - which was the first reason you state as deciding to go against me in the first place. Maybe since you already 'know' she's 'town', you've already reasoned that it's OMGUS and thus not worthy of pursuing?

As for not voting: I avoided voting when I Was mafia in pirates vs ninjas because I Thought it would keep attention off of me and would prevent other scum groups from NKing me. But it drew the attention of the vig.

Look:

???? If you don't want to play the game ask replacement don't self-vote, it is completely not in favour of your own faction.

I am pretty sure mnowax is not town, and not my faction. He played bad throughout, so bad blazerunner got spoked and started to act weird itself. But this is beyond it.

Look mnowax, you committed to a game of mafia. betrayal, suspicion, unbelieve are part of the very mechanics of the game, if you are not up to being disbelieved and called a liar, then you ought not to play this kind of game. I don't think it is fun the way you are acting now. As said before I can see how you could have wrongly concluded on Yosarian2 if you indeed tried to attack him, but the way you react to the people showing your mistake could be labelled as inmature, caught or stubborn, but it is hurting town anyway.

I also don't like why your vote stays on Yosarian2, it looks like you considering it now as a randomvote, and only in the very first pages a random vote can be benificial for town, I would like to see you removing it. I don't claim here I know Yosarian2 to be town, I only don't think there is reason to suspect him more than anyone else.

Look at what hjallti is doing in this quote. HE starts it off by saying that Mnowax is not town and

not in his faction.

Okay, if you want to say that that was just him being belgian and poorly grasping the english language, that's fine. But look at the rest of the post.

He tells Mnowax that voting himself HURTS his faction; he tells him that he is committed to the game.

THen he goes on to say why he thinks Mnowax is scum. If you look at what he said and try to picture why he would intentionally say that, you get the impression, in my eyes at least (because there are some very vocal people here that don't think I can see anything) that Hjltill has some sort of investment in keeping Mnowax alive. MNOWAX's self destruction at the beginning of the day might be the result of a player who has just been recruited. IF a recruited player sacs themself at the beginning of each day, the cult leader is always safe.

However if Mnowax is doing that he's also forgetting therte might be a secondary cult -on ethat will win by numbers alone if the first cult keeps getting sacced.

Anyways, it hurts my head too much to think about but I think that Hjllti's disclaimer at hte beginning of the post, which is the only thing that has been focused on, is much more relevant if you look at how he talks to Mnowax and his opinions of mnowax through the rest of the game.

Personally, if scum wants to self destruct, I Would say Let them! Help them!

2) If you remember correctly, I pointed out that armlx was making no moves of his own to catch scum, and was merely denegrating the attempts of toehrs at doing so. HE was asking other people to provide reasonings for him to vote, adn not looking for any himself. You may say that that is evasive, bu regardless of my own involvement in the situation, it is still the truth. IF you take out what I said about him, and looked at what he has said, that statement holds true. If it was said defensively, it does not make the statement less true.


3) Please show me where I was wrong to vote hjllti.


I like how armlx says that vollkan is scummy for not voting me, and then says that it makes him look like he is testing the waters - however I have no doubt that if vollkan voted me (Adn with Yosarian's 'deadline is upon us' paranoia inducement) that he would be the third or fourth person on that wagon.


SlySly: Was that really the entire thing you had to say about me in regards to that post? A cynical comment about me rehashing something? The post was in response to another player - I introduced a lot of new content, and YES, I did repeat myself in one sentence. Why did you ignore everything else and focus on the one repitition of what was already said?

Again, this sounds the same as Yosarian from earlier on in this post, saying I'm not letting go of something but at the same time ignoring everything else I've said that ISN'T about that thing.

Who's the ones not letting go?


And lastly:
A person who is playing an alt can have 100 posts and come across as very mature, another player can put in 5000 posts and not change a single bit in their playstyle. Does being experienced mean being a better scum hunter? Armlx, you were playing on this site a year and a half (almost) before me: but I have 1500 more posts than you in games. Does that mean you are a better scum hunter or does that mean I am a better scum hunter?
The answer is: It doesn't mean jack shit.

If it does mean jack shit, then at what point between 3500 and 5000 posts does someone begin to actually scum hunt for cult recruiters? You've been hiding behind "We must find cult leaders" the entire game, and now that we are close to deadline you seem to have completely abandoned that tactic.

[Skruffs]

Let the rehashing continue...

I don't agree with you there; I pointed out that someone who spends their time trying to dismiss other players arguments without offering counter arguments

Seems like I have heard this in this game already about 400 times.

Skruffs, word count does not = relevance. Post count does not = contribution.

High word count, especially when starting EVERY post off with the same unimportant argument just increases the odds that no one is going to put forth the effort into reading what you have to say. Take your posts out of this game, and this game is 8 pages shorter without significant loss of relevant content.

I find myself wanting to vote you out just so this game will be a much smoother read and easier for everyone to follow.

And yet again you ignore everything except the parts that are talking abou the parts you apparently hate so much to read. Do you have nothing else to comment on anything I've said that is NOT rehashing? No? Okay.

Fos

.

Everyone seems to be missing the possibility that the Cult Leader(s) could have killed during the night instead of recruiting.

If you think that the cult leaders are not going to be trying to kill right now, and you knew that the CLs kill by frying - and yet there was no indication that there had been any fryings - what was the point of bringing this up in the first place?

Fos: again

. The only reason I fos was because of your reaction to hearing there were no doctors in this game : I think you were trying to set up a doctor claim.

SL:
What I said in that paragraph was the truth: I don't see how saying the ttruth about current game situations (Something that could have been verified by reading other games) is worthy of a vote. I don't see how it makes me scummy in this game. You did no meta analysis at all but rather blindly voted me because I Was defending myself in a way that you partook as a meta. THat's crazy, too, because the same thing (gasp) happened in other games. Then you say I am fos-worthy, or pinging, because I am not metaing you enough to be thorough - Which is hilarious because you are fossing me in the first place for metaing myself in a way you don't want to bother confirming!!!

Fos

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Why is this game less of a priority than those other two?


As for hte english thing: It's redundant, there are two statements made and presumably each one is distinctive and unique or else they wouldn't be made. I think Hjllti was distancing himself from a cult-recruit that he didn't recruit.

NabNab

:
What leads you to think I am the kind of player who makes long winded and confusing posts in an attempt to confuse and stall the town, wether I Am town or as scum? You should remember from Big Love mafia (where I Was scum) that I play scum very different as town. Usually as mafia I :teach: town how to catch me, and my scum buddies. I quasi bus my teammates a lot, without actually voting them.


Sidenote:
I do'nt think Mnowax targetted Blazerunner. Even if he did, I think blaze blocked him. I think that whoever DID shoot blazerunner, whether they are town or sk, was an idiot. If they are an SK and not TSS, then they killed DGB too, which is another stupid choice (Because DGB is a liability to a cult, so she's not likely to be recruited).

Vote : Vollkan

While I don't think Vollkan is a Cult Rcruitor, if he turns up as a cultist, it puts a lot of weight behind my theory regarding him and SL. Considering how some players are trying to coerce other players into voting me, I'm also going to vote him because it makes it more likely he gets lynched than me, at this point.

[Skruffs]

Right now, there are potentially 6 out of 12 players who are cult.
Tomorrow, it could be as much as 8 out of 10.

I don't think a mass claim is in order, but messing around with claimed power roles isn't going to reveal a cult recruiter. Mnowax is either going to be shot, burned, recruited, etc, but unless we think he's a recruitor he's not worth going after.

I think armlx is acting very peculiarly, especially in the last two or so days.

[Skruffs]

I think it was because I was trying to build a wagon other than yours, MNOWAX.

[Skruffs]

SlySly: Thanks for the detailed, constructive response. I will try to digest it without providing knee jerk responses. I still think that it's being assumed that Hjllti wasn't making a mistake, and when you look at that post, it puts the mistake in context, but if you assume that Hjllti is not scum then my vote for him is in fact in error. I'll read and provide a response.

Springlullabye:
Allright, what kind of meta would you prefer I use? IS there non-vague metas on players? If so, can you provide examples? Also, can you prove that the meta I used was false, or is it your opinion that it is false?

2) When I first criticized your vote on me, I didn't realize you had realized Hjllti. I now realize it was just OMGUS. So I won't argue this.

3) How repeated is it? How many times have I offered that argument up vs how many times have other people brought it up and I have replied to it?

[Skruffs]

Look, if MNOwax is a vig, he's not going to get recruited now anyways.

He's very very likely to be crisped or shot in one of the upcoming nights - if he can't be recruited then he's an enemy of hte cults. IF he's a cult recruitor, then he would have no reason to even say the correct person he targeted the next day - Yosarian2 is through and through a red herring, at least as far as MNOWAX's claim is concerned. He was roleblocked, he didn't target anyone, so wether he is town or scum, Yosarian was not targetted by him. If he's scum, we can't even believe that he was accurate;y claiming who he targeted. The only way he could have actually targetted would be fi someone ELSE who was a roleblcoker though Blaze was a cult recruiter, and blocked HIM. That's not come up, yet, I don't htink, and it really shouldn't unless that is exactly what happened. However, a roleblocker can't comeout with that anywyas, because that means he is no longer useful to town.

Armlx, I hate to say this, because it's' coming from ME and all, but it sounds like you are trying to make this work with your theory, and not looking at all the pieces - if that makese sense. We have to look at all the pieces and see what THEY tell us, not try to arrange the pieces to get them to say what we want.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs:

1) How couldn't mno be recruited if he's a vig? I'm confused as to what you are saying here.

2) He has reason to claim the right target as there's possibly a tracker and getting caught in a lie = awkward. Though that does bring up a question.

MOD, if a tracker targets someone who is RB'ed, do they see them targeting the person they intended to target or see them doing nothing.

MNOWAX is way too public a figure to be recruited now. Cult recruiters are trying to recruit people who A) are going to help their side win and B) are not going to get killed in doing so. So reasonable, pro-town, nonbelligerent targets are very likely the targets, NOT claimed power roles. It's just too risky.


SL:
Soirry, missed your post, reacting now.
For some reason, I had a feeling that you DID play in a game with me, because I thought I had recruited you after that game to play in Contagion. I replaced you in methodical mafia, and I think you were in a newbie game that I modded. I must have gotten the impression that we'd played together from a combination of those two games. I think I Thought you were in big brother with me, but that was actually farside22.

I rescind that you should 'know' about that meta on me, you haven't played with me before, so you shouldn't necessarily know that.

That aside, is there any part of your post that you wanted me to refer to? The meta is still pretty accurate, even if it doesn't apply to you as scum, in this situation.

[Skruffs]

If he's a non-recruited vig, why destroy a power role?
If he's a recruit, why 'waste' a lynch on him; for every recruit that is killed, there is possibly two more being made the next night..
If he's SK, why get rid of a Known anti-town role that can't be recruited and thus has to try to help town kill cult recruiters.
And if he's a cult recruitor, the SKs and cult recruitors BOTH want to kill him, he is an emergent threat specifically against the both of those other factions, as well as town, so it is likely that one of them are going to bite the bullet nad aim for him tonight.

My point is NOT that he will die anywyas so why bother lynching him, it's that he's been sufficiently outed that he can NO LONGER win as scum and if he IS town we shouldn't waste a lynch on him.

[Skruffs]

D'aww so cute. I sort of thought all those big sentences would confuse someone into voting me. ^.^

[Skruffs]

CKD - do you think that MNOWAX is actually a cult recruiter? If not, do you think Armlxs sudden gungho-ocity towads lynching him is unusual for a player who, up until now, has been stringently against supporting any wagon that wasn't based on lynching a cult recruitor?

[Skruffs]

IT looks like a three way tie with Vollkan, MNOWAX, and me, with me as the up-and-coming lynch target since I Think I have the most people quietly trying to coerce others to vote me AND I am actively criticizing one of the other wagons.

I think Vollkan would be a cult recruit lynch,a nd I think MNOWAX would be a vig-lynch, and if you want me to claim, tell me to, don't just put votes on me.

Yes, Cow, I noticed how you just snuck that on there. Please, in addition to my last post, explain the explicit reasons that made you vote me so that it can be recorded for posterity.

[Skruffs]

Funny that you are asking her for explanations for saying that, but you provide NO EXPLANATIONS or reasons for your own vote.

HER post isn't directly trying to get someone lynched. YOURS is. Who's should more likely be packed with reasons?

Thought so.

[Skruffs]

Yos, you are one of the persons who I was referring to as trying to Coerce people into putting their votes where their mouth is, and as far as I am aware, only people who were suspicious of me. Unvoting vollkan make it more likely l am lynched, especially chasing after a cow lynch so late in the game, especially after cow puts a vote on me as your reasoning. Do you want me to be lynched? If so, and you are town, why the underhanded maneuvering?

[Skruffs]

Yos:
But you didn't post a significant case against CKD, which means your vote is effectively a throwaway vote: Nobody is going to follow it. Unless CKD responds (and he probably won't or he would have put more in the post in which he voted me) nobody is going to pay any attention to it until tomorrow, after someone has been lynched. Do you think Vollkan is more likely town than I am? If so, then your vote is justified. If not, then you should be voting me.

*I* would vote for CKD, and was even tempted to, but unvoting someone who has more votes than me is effectively making the votes on me stronger. And I know you know this because you got an award for exactly the kind of stuff I am asking you why you are doing.


I do agree cow's vote was completley oppurtunistic, and I Would not be surprised if he turned out to be a recruit or recruiter or SK, he's been one of the players flying under the radar. But there's not enough impetus at this stage to get him lynched and there's not really a case against him.

I *will* vote hop if I have to, to try to get someone other than me lynched, although I haven't done so to MNOWAX because of the reasons I listed above.

Lastly, your comment that the world doesn't revolve around me is very troublesome. I pointed out how your action directly affects me. Saying that the world doesn't revolve around me as a response is basically agreeing with what I asked: You are writing me off, or something. You have just said that you aren't particularly suspicious of me, and I just pointed out how what you did is indirectly helping to get me lynched. So, yes, the world does revolve around me, at least in regards to who you are voting for. It's not being self-absorbed to point out what people are doing that leads to your own lynching.

We have four days. At T-3 days, I will claim if I have to, but I Am going to be very suspicious of any players who jump on this offer JUST to make me claim.

[Skruffs]

1) Skruffs did not claim watcher. He was using the phrase differently then you are interpreting it.

2) Norinel confirmed if a person is RB'ed and watched it looks like they targeted who they intended, just the ability didn't work.

Skruffs, did I misinterpret your statement?

Armlx, if I understood Skruffs correctly and he isn't lying, mnowax didn't target anyone. Your #2 confirms what I am saying. If mnowax is a recruiter and was watched, blocked or not, the action would have been seen. Since no action was seen, I find the possibility of mnowax being a recruiter very slim as recruiters aren't just going to take a night off.

If it turns out Skruffs is lying, my suspicion of mnowax would immediately return as mno's claims have seemed pretty far fetched to me so far in this game.

I am *not* Claiming a watcher that targetted Yosarian or Mnowax if that is what you are asking. I don't know why the roleblocker stops the action but not the targetting, every other instance I have done (including my own mini game where there was a watcher, tracker, and roleblocker) the roleblocker wouuld completely prevent a player from doing ANYTHING.. otherwise a paranoid gun owner would be able tokill someone who hadn't actually done anything to them. Regardless, no, I did not mean to consstrue that I have any proof that Mnowax tried to target anyone, and I'm pretty sure my post in full context would confirm that.


You are suggesting I Am lying about something that I have never even said. Even if you thought I had said that, WHY WOULD YOU 'out' me as a watcher? And for no reason than to confirm something that is already public information, jsut not confirmed?

[Skruffs]

I disagree; the concept of multiple roles had already been introduced yesterday, so a *smart* vig may have thought that it was possible that there were multiple vigs.

[Skruffs]

And what if he's not a cult recruitor?

[Skruffs]

Well, everything except any kind of logical explination for why mnowax-cult recuiter would claim vig day one, why he would...well, why he would do anything he's done as a cult recruiter.

It take his ridiculous claims to explain the night actions so far and give him an alibi for 2 more days. Maybe he figures by that time his cult will outnumber the town and if he squeaks through on this sham, it won't matter by then and what looked really stupid now looks really good as a CL.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, refresh my memory, what is your case against CKD?

If he's a cult recruiter than he is targetting someone to night, somethign hew can't do as vig. He's shot hiself in the foot because he becomes a prime candidate to be watched or tracked. So he can't do anything until tomorrow even if he is scum.

[Skruffs]

1) You criticise yos for not posting a significant case.
2) You admit that you yourself feel inclined to vote CKD

There's some incongruence in the fact that you would expect another player (Yos) to effectively push a wagon on CKD whilst you yourself are seemingly comfortable to abstain.

Incorrect. I am not saying that CKD should have a wagon on him, I was chastizing Yos for trying to start a wagon this late in the game, without actually putting much gusto into it. It makes it look like he's trying to get someone lynched who he says/thinks is town, because nobody is going to follow him onto CKD unless he actually does provide a reason this late in the game.

If you genuinely think CKD to be scum, the most rational thing for you to do would be to push a case yourself. Sure, self-preservation justifies not moving your own vote, but I don't see how it justifies you not pushing a case against the person whom you claim to be inclined to vote for.

I didn't liek CKD's vote on me. It was oppurtunistic. I am voting for hte person I really want to vote for: If I really really REALLY thought that CKD was more likely scum than you, TRUST ME, I Would be voting him. You throw out self-preservation like it's a secondary thing in this game, and yet you are trying to goad me into building a case against CKD and, oh, look at that, unvoting you. When I've been anti-you since the whole hjllti thing earlier in the day.

unvote, vote slysly...Mno is not the lynch today..again, at best he could be a recruit..you never answered my question sly sly, and I know you saw it..do you think that there is Vig, if Mno isnt?

This close to deadline and you are voting because someone missed/avoided a question?

I disagree; the concept of multiple roles had already been introduced yesterday, so a *smart* vig may have thought that it was possible that there were multiple vigs.

See how my theory encompasses said issue. Its really convenient to have everything fit together so well.

Well, yeah, except..it dosn't make much sense or seem especally likely. But other then that it's a good theory...

It seems less unlikely that there would be two vigs, but if you were a vig and another player claimed vig, I think there is a good case for not killing them. It all depends on how the role distribution is calculated.

So you think that MNOWAX is a vig, then, right?

[Skruffs]

Whatever the odds are, MNOWAX as cult recruiter is aware of it now and is screwed if he tries anything tonight and it's still around. He only has potentially one recruit if he IS a cult recruitor, so he'd have to have recruited them n1.

[Skruffs]

my main concern was that skruffs believes that i have this elaborate plan that i am a cult leader, and am nothing else but playing the town. i feel that i am terribly unlucky that my only vig shot ( possibly of the entire game ) was blocked, butit doesn't mean that i am not who i say i am. i think that skruffs is projecting IMO because he is a CL and is trying to get me lynched with no logic. everyone knows that his reasoning is BS, and yet everyone want to see me in the gallows.

unvote,vote Skruffs

He is higher on the list even more than volkan..

You are a DUMBASS. I'm the one saying that REGARDLESS of who you are you are the wrong lynch, and that even if you ARE The cult recruiter, you've lost. WHY are you saying that I am the one who believes you have an elaborate plan?! That's ARMLX.

Unvote, Vote CKD

I feel like crap doing this since he just posted he's AFK, but I still think MNOWAX is a town vig. I kind of hope CKD gets a chance to come in here and claim, bu on the other hand, he's getting votes for playing like scum.

[Skruffs]

CKD: You have played in enough games with me that you shouldn't be trying to use your metas/reads on OTHER players as justification for a vote on me.

[Skruffs]

Oh.. no, I didn't see the mason claim.

[Skruffs]

Great, now the cultists can infiltrate the mason society, if that's what he is.

I don't know what to do. Vig is a lot more useful than mason.

[Skruffs]

I didn't see his claim until after I had voted for him.
My brain stalled out at that point, and I came back to find we'd already hit deadline. It looks really crappy, and I'm not proud of it. I didn't keep my vote on him because I thought he was a mason that could be recruited though, and I think during the night I saw that he actually claimed unrecruitable mason. I kept my vote on him because I thought his play was scummy. I guess, though, that knowing that he AND springlullaby were masons, and presuming they were masons together, it really helps to explain my suspicions on both of their behaviors.

Two people who obviously are NOT masons are both myself and SlySly. Obviously, I'm going to look at slysly next.

[Skruffs]

Unless he was a fake claiming recruiter. Kind of like how MNOWAX has a 0% chance of being a recruiter, since he's a vig. Right?

[Skruffs]

MNOWAX: Your kill goes through before recruits.

[Skruffs]

MNO:

I voted CKD because it was either him or you. Stop being a jerkwad and open your friggin eyes. If I remember correctly towards the end of the day yesterday you also voted me while saying I Was being suspicious for attacking you when in fact I was trying to dissuade Armlx from getting you lynched as a vig. Why is it that you are ignoring armlx in this situation and attacking me, who was defending your possible vig-role?


Aioque- Did you seriously just say you were a recruit?

[Skruffs]

SlySly: can you explain your suspicion of the CKD train better? I'm trying to see what youa ret aking out of context and what you aren't.

I'd also like to point out that if there are two cults right now, and they have some successful recruits, then weve as much as lost the game right now.

[Skruffs]

I agree. Give us your recruiter and we'll guarantee your group amnesty until the other cult is destroyed. Considering our track record, you may have nothing to worry about.

[Skruffs]

Unvote, Vote: SlySly

[Skruffs]

Wow. Yos's last post was incredibly insightful. Bravo, Yos.

Unvote, Vote: Aioqwe

[Skruffs]

Yes you do.

That's exactly why you were saying MNOWAX was a recruiter, yesterday.

[Skruffs]

We're either close to a breakthrough, or the end of the game.

[Skruffs]

Oh. Were only other players allowed to read Yos's post? Or are you saying that I'm not supposed to be voting right now?

Aioqwe has as much sa claimed recruit. Yos explained why someone claiming recruit is most likely NOT a recruit, which means they are more likely a cult recruiter or an SK.

You agree with his post but you don't agree with putting his post into action?

IGMEOY Vollkan

I think that's two eyes on you now.

[Skruffs]

I'm sorry.

Did you really just say that claiming scum is not enough of a reason to vote someone?

You did.

How about this:

If you really think that Yosarian2's statement is fairly accurate BUT that it shouldn't be held applicable to Vollkan, why don't you go ahead and point out who you think the recruiter IS?

[Skruffs]

Objective is to lynch recruiters. That means that our goal is not 'to lynch scum'; our goal is to lynch recruiters. Roll that around in your head for a few seconds and appreciate how the two are different.

Vollkan, cult recruitors... are scum. I know you can't POSSIBLY be saying that they aren't... but you appear to be trying to differentiate between scum, and cult recruitors.

Good. Now, just because somebody claims 'recruit' does not justify voting them. Sure, a recruit claim makes it more likely (I think...probability is not my strong point) that they are a recruiter than any random player (since they confirm themself as scum) but, remember, that the goal is to lynch recruiters. Thus, whilst a recruit claim might well be a positive factor, it is not decisive.

So you are basically defending the idea (That Yosarian2 posited) that "recruit" is a safe claim. You yourself are saying that recruits should not be l ynched - so what else would a cult recruitor claim?

You are literally saying that a person claiming recruit shouldn't be lynched because, even though a recruitor is more likely to claim recruit than any random player, that it isn't enough to base a decision on.

Amazing!

Thus, as I have said repeatedly, a claim does not justify a kneejerk vote.

Oh. of course not. I completely understand why you would be suspicious of a person who is voting someone who claimed scum in a game. You do realize that you are defending claimed scum, which means that it is even more likely that YOU are in his cult, regardless of if he is recruit or recruitor? I can't imagine a cult recruitor would be defending a recruit like you are, but I *can* see it the other way around.

To play DA with myself, the other issue is the inherent difficulty in separating "cult leaderish" play from "miscellaneous scum" play. The assumption that they are necessarily different has some theoretical merit, but I am wondering how practical a distinction it really is.

So it's really hard to figure out who the cult leaders are. But there is one way that is more likely to tell if someone is a cult leader or not (claiming recruit), but we shouldn't listen to it because it's not decisive enough? That's what you are saying? That we can't figure out who the cult recruiters are, and we shouldn't even pressure those most likely to be cult recruitors?

That doesn't justify "knee-jerking", but I think it is important to keep in mind that there is not some silver-bullet alternative.

As for who I suspect most of being CL, my current #1 is yourself Skruffs. I see aio as a reasonable lynch, but I think I need to reread her closely.

So:

she's a reasonable lynch, but, I'm suspicious for voting her. She's likely a cult recruitor, but we shouldn't vote her so quickly, because of that. And there's no real way to tell who the recruitors ARE, but the tells we DO have should be ignored. All wrapped up with an "I'll vote her too, maybe."

To paraphrase you:

" ... "

Can you explain how my actions lead you to think that *I* am a cult leader? IF you are going to say it, you MUST have a reason, and if you have a reason, I can compare what you say about me, versus Ai, and then point out how you are intentionally trying to deflect attention away from her.

[Skruffs]

this vote, but let me rattle off the problems that come to mind:
1) You are deterring against activity. That's anti-town at best and scummy-as-hell at worst.

This is completely different from, say, you ragging on the quality of people's cases yesterday, and, oh, your scorning of people for pushing probes today, too, all while insisting you have nothing to contribute yourself.


Right?

2) You've failed to actually prove your assumption that "activity = recruiter" (which, incidentally, goes against the arguments that have been reigning in this thread for some time). Thus, your vote has no established logical basis.

You're asking Beep! Beep! for logical arguments? and proof? I feel sorry for you. You yourself have concluded how hard it is to "know" who the bad guys are, and yet you have no problem criticizing other people for not knowing.



I don't really agree that activity = cult recruitor.
I invest myself in every game, for example, regardless of my role. I can imagine that cult leaders are picking and choosing from lurkers to swell their ranks quietly, but the cult leaders most importantly don't want to get caught themselves. So I would imagine that they are trying to play as pro-town as possible without actually drawing too much attention to themselves from the variouis other killing roles.

[Skruffs]

*Groan*

Someone saying something you don't like doesn't make them more likely to be a recruiter, slysly. Extortion is not your strong suit.

[Skruffs]

Vollkan:
You started with the snide tone. Rmember this?

*headdesk*

Let me step you through this slooowwlly.

Objective is to lynch recruiters. That means that our goal is not 'to lynch scum'; our goal is to lynch recruiters.

Roll that around in your head for a few seconds and appreciate how the two are different.

...

Good.

e returning your 'snide tone' back at you, then perhaps you shouldn't act like a pompous ass when you direc conversation at me.

Just sayin.

You know perfectly well what I mean. CLs and CRs are both scum, but the point is that lynching a CL is the superior option.

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. All CLs are scum, but not all scum are CLs.

Vollkan, baby, you said, in exact quotes:

a recruit claim makes it more likely (...) that they are a recruiter than any random player

Thus, whilst a recruit claim might well be a positive factor, it is not decisive.

(...)the other issue is the inherent difficulty in separating "cult leaderish" play from "miscellaneous scum" play. The assumption that they are necessarily different has some theoretical merit, but I am wondering how practical a distinction it really is.

To sum up! And I am paraphrasing:

"This guy claimed recruit. I agree that someone claimed recruit is more likely to be a recruiter than another form. I can't think of any other ways to determine if someone is likely to be a cult recruiter. I stringently oppose you pressuring that player, even though they are the most likely player in the game to be cult leader and I Can offer no other ways to determine if someone is cult!

This is why I think you are one of his recruits.

As for who I suspect most of being CL, my current #1 is yourself Skruffs. I see aio as a reasonable lynch, but I think I need to reread her closely.

Still waiting on this one.

I like the fact that whilst you put on a snide tone and deride my position, you don't actually explain how I am wrong to say that kneejerk voting recruit claims is bad.

I can understand why you are so worried abou kneejerk voting. After all, the last time you voted was a reasonless bandwagon hop onto my wagon, May 17th. Perhaps you ahven't heard o f the concept of "Pressure Voting", but it's a tactic wherein players vote a suspicious player to A) get reactions from them and B) get reactions from other players.

For example, you have been sweating under the collar ever since I put my vote on Aio.

Oh. of course not. I completely understand why you would be suspicious of a person who is voting someone who claimed scum in a game. You do realize that you are defending claimed scum, which means that it is even more likely that YOU are in his cult, regardless of if he is recruit or recruitor? I can't imagine a cult recruitor would be defending a recruit like you are, but I *can* see it the other way around.

I'm not defending claimed scum. I'm questioning the sense of voting the claimed scum without making an effort to explain why she is the best lynch. I find that accusations of 'defending' are among the most stupid sort to make. If somebody votes a claimed scum for what I see as a poor reason, why is it wrong of me to point it out?

This doesn't work, though. You agree that they claimed scum. You agree that the reasoning on her is sound (Recruitors would claim recruit), and you can't think of any other way to determine wether she is scum or not. You basically are saying you just don't want any attention on her, even though she claimed scum.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out 'poor reasoning' for voting someone, bu in this case, you have outright said that you AGREE with the reasoning. However despite that you are questioning the peopple voting her (more than one) And directing no questions towards her, yourself.

Wonder why not?

So it's really hard to figure out who the cult leaders are. But there is one way that is more likely to tell if someone is a cult leader or not (claiming recruit), but we shouldn't listen to it because it's not decisive enough? That's what you are saying? That we can't figure out who the cult recruiters are, and we shouldn't even pressure those most likely to be cult recruitors?

That is not what I said. Don't strawman.

My point was that, even if there is little that is solidly "CLish" as opposed to just "scummy" generally, a claim doesn't immediately justify a vote in and of itself.

You are basically saying that I (me, not you) should determine a way to "prove" with "Evidence" that someone is a cult recruitor. The only way I can think of that someone can PROVE someone else is a cult recruitor is by being a vig, cult recruitor, or serial killer. You are cussing me of strawmanning, which is interesting because I'm attacking the sole point that you are bringing up as a reason not to vote aioque at this juncture.

And I have no clue where you got that I said that CRs should not be pressured. I've already been clear that they might well be CLs, so of course they should be scrutinised.

This is what you say, but not what you do. FOcussing on other players and ignoring the scum. Tsk. You're a defense attorney, aren't you? How is aio paying you?

Can you explain how my actions lead you to think that *I* am a cult leader? IF you are going to say it, you MUST have a reason, and if you have a reason, I can compare what you say about me, versus Ai, and then point out how you are intentionally trying to deflect attention away from her.

It's no secret that I've had problems with your play for some time now. But what makes that likely CLish to me?

This is exactly my point from before - there isn't practically anything that, universally, can be construed as distinctly CLish as opposed to scummy. Frankly, I think that after it's been harped on that "CLs will be quieter" then it is basically just WIFOM to follow that line of thinking (or any similar sort of generalisation).

I'm not trying to deflect away from aio. I just don't see how auto-lynching claimed recruits is actually productive. I don't think I need to point out, that such a policy could very well suit the cult just fine.

What's unproductive about lynching cult leaders?

I just really don't like the whole "I am not going ot analyze or offer input of my own but I'm going to criticize you for yours because I think it's flawed!" line of thinking you have. Something abou it is very wrong.

[Skruffs]

MNOWAX: If aio is lyched and turns up cult recruitor or cult, who will you vig tonight?

[Skruffs]

I believe that I am merited to ask considering he's been voting me in a bizarre fashion for the last two days.

[Skruffs]

well.. the roleblocker is dead... scum can't keep you from making a kill. You should announce before night falls who you are going to kill.. if you are killed in the night and revealed as vig, it will tell us that you're attack was unsuccessful because the person you killed was scum.

[Skruffs]

Why is armlx ejecting himself from the conversation?

Sounds to me a lot like the whole Skruffs vs. me argument yesterday, which was just pointless.

actually it was me vs you and vollkan.

[Skruffs]

This:

If you are scum, you could also phrase your posts in an iffy way to mislead other people, which is exactly what I believe you were doing.

I'm not making that connections

My intention wasn't to mislead. If I was going to counterclaim I would have stated that it was a counterclaim. The post that I made was meant as I didn't think that that was a good/believable claim (hence, bad claim...).

THE CKD TRAIN

vote: aioqwe

[/quote]Yes, we know now, but recruiters/recruits might pile on because they didn't know if he was steadfast or not yesterday.

Why me, why not skruffs? You liked him yesterday. If your suspicions change then that would imply that I'm a recruit and the proper play would be to focus on recruiters.[/quote]


LEd to this:

What did I do armlx? I just claimed a recruit and gave out my fellow cultees like a good townie wood

Yup, my recruiter is N-N, skruffs is also in the cult

EBWOP: armlx is also with it.

Surely, you jest!

Isn't it against the rules to expose your scum buddies and their hierarchies like that?

No N-N is actually my leader have fun lynching him You can lynch me next, but it's better to get rid of leaders first eh

But yeah, I'm town.

HE played it off as a joke, but he intentionally 'connected' himself to other players in the game, which reeks of WIFOM. He acknowledged that because his behavior had changed that it meant he was likely a recruit and then suggested that I was a cult recruitor because, apparently, my behavior DIDN'T change. (Still waiting for Vollkan to pipe in with something more than "I have a dream that you are the CL" on that one).

[Skruffs]

MNOWAX:
You've already said you're ignoring me, but your suspicion of me is as off-base as your vote on Yosarian2 yesterday for being a cult-recruitor even though you knew you were roleblocked earlier in the game.

IF you don't remember correctly (And I doubt you do because I don't htink you are actually reading the game), Armlx was pushing a case to suggest you were actually a cult recruitor, yesterday, and I defended you. You ended the day voting me. Now.. I'm not even going to say "If I was a cult recruitor, wouldn't recruiting you silence you" or whatever, it's wifom, and more importantly... And this is basically me just being mean spitritied, but I can't imagine anyone would WANT to recruit you.

AIoqwe:
I don't think the first post was a joke. I think you threw out the second post exactly for hte reason you did: A joke that you could erite off later, if you survived. IF you didn't survive, it looks like a lot of WIFOM connections to several living players in the game that, presumably, would give town a turkey chase to go after.

You have done nothing to actually HUNT for scum in this game. You are voting me SOLELY because you think I am a competing lynch and you want to be part of something without making yourself vulnerable.

Go on, admit it, it's okay. You're a low profile player trying to keep things low profile. You made a mistake, you tried to cover for it, and now you're trying to push attention off of yourself onto me. You don't even know WHY you are pushing attention on to me, except that I am the other player that people are looking at today.

I'd like to see someone say that I am a cult recruitor because I get into arguments with so many people in the game. I *would* do that, as a cult recruitor, but it's not a traditional argument to use in hunting cults.

If I have to, I Will claim, but I'd really prefer NOT to.

[Skruffs]

i know isn't it so kewl that no cult would recruit me? it makes me live longer as a town member and not a cultie.

i konw you were pushing for me to be town. its EXACTLY the reason why i think youre scum. youre right in that i am town, however most people think i am scummy. why are you so different? cause youre scum that is making it look like youre distancing from me. , so when you go down, they will be able to lynch a powerful town role like me cause you were distancing.

I am "Different" because I've SEEN you as scum and as town and I pay attention to your CHARACTER.
I would have no reason as a cultist to be trying to say "This guy is town", especially if a lot of people think he is cult, unless you are in MY cult, and even THAT would be stupid because it leads right back to you if I die.

Now: LEt me just make this clear:

The reason you are going to vig me is because I was trying to get a lynch on SCUM yesterday, and not you. If I had acted like... a cultist... and just piled onto you and let Armlx take the fall if you came up town, then, well, that would make me seem more likely to be tonw.

And that completely BACKWARDS thinking is exactly why I think you are, and always have been, town. Go ahead and vig me, I don't care. You obviously think I am town, or else you wouldn't think I was viggable.

[Skruffs]

The reason I Say "Go ahead" is because when I die, it confirms you as still-a-vig, and not a cult recruit.

Vollkan: I like how you call what I said about Aioqwe 'gut fluff' when actually I was calling Aioqwe out for hte same thing. You couldn't be tying yourself to him harder if you tried.

[Skruffs]

MNOWAX is not a vig, or his vig did not go through, or I would be dead. He has been singlemindedly after me so as to avoid dealing with the lynching of his cohort, Aioqwe, yesterday, and Armlx's attack on him later on in the game. I have no reason to believe his claim, especially with the revelation that

I was right about both Vollkan and Aioqwe.

Being blown to bits: Does that indicate that NabNab was targetted by BOTH cults in one night? If so, then this suggests that both cults are down by potentially two, to a maximum of three each.

In as much, I might as well just see what happens when I say that I am

not recruitable

. I am not a cult recruitor, which means I am either a serial killer or a steadfast townie. I'm curious to see if the cults are a majority, and if I'm the only person left.

There is no reason to believe that MNOWAX is doing anything but blowing smoke. With the presence of a dead vig, and no evidence of a secondary vig. Which means that MNOWAX started claiming vig after he recruited VOllkan. I will look to see how VOllkan and MNOWAX respond to each other.

[Skruffs]

Yeah, it was a horrible idea to claim either non-recruitable townie or SK, but I figured that either way meant that I would be drawing the fire of one or both of the cult recruitors tonight.

There is a vig dead; there is no reason to think that there is another. MNOWAX is therefore not a vigilante. However, claiming vigilante when he was part of hte cult that recruited the vigilante makes sense: He gets told that I am to be the recruit that night (or decides it himself) and if I do not join his cult, he says that is vig attack on me succeeded (Much like what he tried to do with Yosarian2 earlier in the game).

ACtually, that makes sense that if Yos2 was recruited by another player and it didn't go through that MNOWAX would push him as being scum EVEN IF it was known that he (mno) was blocked that night.

Couple this with his avoidance of all the players except me yesterday and you get a cult that tried to recruit me and failed.

Regardless, I'm not allied with either cult and can't be, and the players that are hopping onto me saying that I am a cult recruitor are ignoring that I would have no reason to be "bussed" by aioqwe if he was my recruit or attacked by Vollkan if he was my recruit.

I'm not cult, and I'm not a cult recruitor.

I have no problem, though, seeing as there are now TWO CONFIRMED CULTS, claiming to be the serial killer or a non-recruitable townie. If I Am a non recruitable townie, the SK gets to keep knocking off cults, since that is the only player that is a real threat to the cults now, I would think.

Vote: Armlx

Your turn.

[Skruffs]

Also: Claiming to be non recruitable ensures that wether I am a cult recruitor, SK, or townie, that I am not going to live much longer. Both cult recruitors will want me dead either as an active threat (SK) or as a non recruitable one (Townie) or as competition (Oopposing cult recruitoir)
If I am a cult recruitor than the SK targets me tonight along with the other cult recruitor
If I am a SK Both recruitors target me
If I am townie possibly all three.

Let's look for the REAL cult, okay?

[Skruffs]

So are you now claiming serial killer, MNOWAX?

[Skruffs]

AMazing.

Beep! said I Wasn't scum yesterday, bu today she started off saying I needed to die. MY guess is Beep is now part of hte fuschia cult, and wasn't yesterday. It was too obvious of a breadcrumb that she was still a pwoer role.

Yosarian2, MNOWAX, you have the exact same mindset as you had yesterday while hte rest of us lynched Armlx, the cult recruitor.

Neither of you have any reason to think that I am a cult recruitor, but you do have reason to think I might be the serial killer, and you are voting me for it.

MNOWAX as much as claimed fuschia cult by calling on the help of the cerulean cult.

OF course what both of you seem to be ignoring is that there were no kills last night. Or else, maybe you *didn't* ignore that, and are trying to get a lynch on me before whoever the SK is can announce who they tried to kill? You'd hate to have your leader revealed, unless you can guarantee that that the only person who can stop him is lynched.

I am guessing the fuschia cult is 3 people strong or less today - if it was four people strong, then they would be unstoppable no matter who they lynched today. (IE they power lynch someone then they can NK the other; even if a NK on an SK didn't go through they could lynch him the next day, EVEN if hte SK killed one of their own).

However if it is three people than there is no way to get a lynch on one of their own, which means that town's only choice would be to no lynch and hope the SK kills correctly again; but even that (with three players) might result in a cult win, as wether the cult killed the steadfast townie, the SK, or the last cerulean cult member, they woulud be 2-2 from then on out.

I think any remaining cerulean cult members should claim, to start off. They have no reason to let the competing cult win, and if there is two of them, they can still win tomorrow if the cult leader is killed today.

Mnowax, people keep saying that you are the worst choice for a n0 recruit, but that makes you the best choice - and since you are so brash and irratic anyways, your attempts to mislead the town are more easily written off; you are not held accountable like, yosarian2 should be, by trying to get people l ynched while ignoring actually scum hunting.


I can do a run down on who I think who is, but I Will say that if you lynch me today, the fuschia cult will win the game, simply because I'm not the fuschia cult recruitor.

[Skruffs]

Yosarian2 - I'm just really REALLY surprised that you would be fishing for roles rather than actually scum hunting. I Accept that you are a cult; I thought it was very clever to start a wagon on Armlx and then to balk away from it as if he was your leader.

Answer me this:

Are you voting me because you simply want a claim,
Because I am unrecruitable,
Because you think I am scum,
Because you think I am the serial killer specifically,
or because you think I am the fuschia cult leader specifically?

At this point in the game the ONLY reason you should be voting me is for the last one, right? And the reasons you claim to be voting me do not sync up with the last reason, it fits more with the first or second choice.
Who do you think the cult recruitor is, in that case? I am trying to figure out if you are on the bad cult or the neutered cult.

The Silent SPeaker

: You seemed to know exactly which color cult recruitor armlx would turn out to be - how is that? Can you go through the logic again? Can you also use that logic to figure out who the remaining cyult recruitor is?

[Skruffs]

Yos or Skruffs should die.

...wait, I should die because I caught a cult leader? What?

You unvoted him when the wagon got going and tried to vote me instead. Which a normal yos would call backpedaling.

[Skruffs]

If you really want me to fully claim, you should unvote me, and I will do so. But I'm only going to fully claim if I have no votes on me, since oen of the cults could have up to three players in it.

[Skruffs]

You knowing that two people are cultists is one thing - knowing that they are in the same cult is something altogether. Both you and the silent speaker knew that Armlx was aioqwe's recruitor, and focussed entirely on them. Neither of you have tried to piece together who would have recruited Vollkan, yet.

Do you think it was me?

If you don't think I am the cult recruitor, you should not be going after me. You are not going after anyone BUT me, though, which suggests two things:

A) You are in the fuschia cult and are trying to find the serial killer.
or
B) You think I am the fuschia cult recruitor.

If you think I am the fuschia cult recruitor, then why is MNOWAX voting me today?
If I, as a cult recruitor, thought he was really a vig and had hit me, last night would have been the RIGHT time to recruit him- he would either have died and been revealed as a fraud, OR, I would have recruited him. Either way, he would not be going gung ho after me today, as he has for the last three days - including before he even claims to have vigged me.

Which I would expect you to think of before you tried to vote me.

So let's suggest that you don't think I am the fuschia cult recruitor. That means that you are IN the fuschia cult, and you think that I am the serial killer - which ties in with your response yesterday to my claim to be either the steadfast townie or the serial killer.

Here's a hint: Yesterday there was finally known evidence of two cults. That makes the serial killer the town's most easily dealt with problem and also their most powerful weapon to overcome the cult threat. Claiming to MAYBE be the serial killer makes perfect sense - it gives the serial killer (if I am not one) a fake claim as well - and gives town the chance to kill the cults. And you pushing at this like this suggests that you are in the fuschia cult.

For hte record, I am rooting for, of hte two cults, a cerulean win over a fuschia, an SK win over hte cults, and a town win over the SK, just because of the difficulty of each of those wins over the ones below it.

Yosarian2 - who do you think are in the fuschia cults? And why have you narrowed your list of 'looked at' people to only me?

[Skruffs]

Again:
The cerulean cult claiming would help themselves immensely; they increase the chances they have of not losing today to a much greater chance, and forces the fuschia cult to become apparent simply by lack of being in the fuschia cult.

If the fuschian cult leader is not lynched today, EVERYONE ELSE loses.

MNOWAX, if you aren't fuschian cult, unvote me in your next post. I don't care if you are cerulean at this juncture - you can prove yourself tonight by targetting me 'again' - if I am scum and you are town then your second kill will go through, if you are not cult then you will have no excuse for not being able to kill me. Your ability to clear yourself after both cult leaders are dead should trump the gambit you are running right now, if you are town.If you unvote, I will fully claim and you can revote me again if you want. If you are going to continue to push a lynch on me, then I will assume you are fuschian and that you have a very good reason to vote me, and you are incriminating yourself for tomorrow because you know that you aren't really a vig.

[Skruffs]

I said I would fully claim when everyone unvoted. We're not on a deadline, I'm not stalling.

Yes, I agree that the sk failed to kill last night, whic means he had to have hit the cult.

If mnowax is cerulean cult trying to get me lynched to hide that he didn't actually vig me because he didn't, knowing that I am unrecruitable, then he has to put his own agenda aside because it is going to wind up with him losing if the fuschian cult piles up on me. If the fuschian cult is 3 strong, they can quick lynch me at this point no matter what I am, and win.

I will fully claim after his next post, wether he unvtes me or not. If he doesn't unvote me, I will take it as a fuschian cult member claim and fully claim anyways.

In the meanwhile: simmer down. I respect your urgency, and I hope you realize that the only reason I haven't claimed is because of the risk inherent with having that vote on me.

vote: thesilentspeaker

If you want to target scum, there you go.

[Skruffs]

Does that sate you enough for now, yosarian2?

It will be funny if mnowax winds up losing for his team by trying to cover up after himself.

[Skruffs]

That's all?

No comment on who I am voting? No freaking out that I am voting for your recruuitor?

[Skruffs]

I replaced day two.

I was verbally suspicious of vikingfan -
vikingfan (Alarmist) - shot Night 2

I got into a fight with springlullaby day three over her lack of contribution:
springlullaby II (Replacing Hjallti (Replacing mypenguinkat)) (Steadfast Mason) - shot Night 3

Aioqwe tried to get me lynched in hsi place day four; I continued to fight with vollkan and mnowax. I decided to shoot vollkan after aioqwe turned up as cult - because of volkan's acivity earlier, as well as because if mnowax was the vig, i couldn't stop him from shooting me, and killing him would not help my own chances at end game since he had nnounced he would kill me before the day ended. I was fighting witih v ollkan extensively so I took him out.

vollkan (Replacing Ration) (Cerulean Cultist, previously Vigilante) - shot Night 4

Day five went through quickly:
Countering MNOWAXs claim with either SK or unrecruitable townie wound up putting doubt in MNOWAX's claim, which may have kept him from being recruited.
Yosarian2's actions towards aioqwe sugested he was cerulean as well, which left beep, slysly, and TSS. I couldn't shoot the actual townie, which seemed to be most likely slysly or yosarian, and beep had clainmed the cop, which means probably a recruit - plus she was one of the only people saying I was not cult yesterday, so I targetted TSS. I thought that the fuschia cult recruitor was either yos or sly sly, I wanted to actually kill a fuschian recruit to keep their numbers low, bu when TSS didin't die,i knew I had hit the actual recruitor.

If the fuschian cult has three, then there is no way we can lynch him today - and we can hope for a no lynch but no better. Mnowax can either target me and kill me tonight, or he can target Slysly, who has outed himself as TSS;'s recruit, or, he can target one of the cerulean recruits, knowing he would be recruited and not wanting to lose that way. Doesn't matter to me.

I intentionally targetted players that I had goten into fights with because I figured that the cult recruitor would counter claim e if it came to that situation.


If I wind up getting lynched, the fuschian mafia wins. I didn't want to claim ONLY because I thought there was a possibility that fuschian mafia was three strong and was trying to find the SK to enure their own win. If MNOWAX is really a vig, even he can't win without me, because even if he kills tonight he is recruited.

THe cerulean mafia, the real steadfast townie, and any remaining townies NEED to vote for TSS if they want a chance at winning. While outing myself basically ensures that I can not win, I have tried the entire game to shoot cultists - I genuinely rfer a loss to lynching from town to a loss by cult majority.

My guess is that It's TSS, SlySly, and possibly Beep! Beep! as fuschian. In that situation, if sly and beep won't vote their leader, we may be able to get a no-lynch compromise;

Mod: Does a recruit go through if the cult recruitor is nightkilled?

Mod: Does a no lynch require three or four votes in a 6 man end game?

SlySly soft claiming 'skruffs is cult' goes against beep! beep's claim yesterday that I wasn't scum, but her opinion has also changed of me, so I am thinking she was culted, which suggests that me claiming SK was actually the wrong choice.

Thank you for unvoting Mnowax, you restored my faith in you.

Note TSS's reaction to me voting him (claiming SK) and SS's reaction (saying I was not SK and voting me)
I hadn't claimed SK before then, I had only voted TSS. However, that told Sly Sly that I really was the SK, and he immediately countered; if he wasn't cult, though, he would not know that I was the SK vs cult.



I'll leave TSS to explain how it is more likely that he shot every person I got into an argument with as an SK with me as a recruitor than it is that I shot my own argumentors. If he can't do that, I will point out that I always, as SK, shoot the people that I argue most with. "Something wicked this way comes" is a recent game in which I was SK and I did the same thing.

[Skruffs]

For the record though, you guys, if I am reading the game right, kind of blundered into today. Outing the SK to find the cult recruitor he targetted does help the town if they survive the day, but in the situation we are likely in, if it outs the SK to the cult and they have 50% of the numbers, it ensures a cult win. I had hoped to have killed a fuschian cultist simply to keep the fuschia cult low; low enough to get them to out themselvse to go against hte ceruleans. I was 'unlucky' in hitting TSS as it gave them the chance to get that extra member they neede to have majority, which is unfortunate.

[Skruffs]

Nice try, SlySly.
The cat's out of the bag, though.

This is from June 4th, which is a long time after you had investigated TSS and he came up as non-cult:

At this point in the game, lynching any scum is a good lynch. A recruit being lynched doesn't make it a certainty that someone else will be recruited in their place.

TSS, your suspicions of Beep and Yos are unfounded. If you keep pushing against them, I am going to think you are a recruit(er).

You already 'knew' that TSS couldn't possibly be a recruiter - there was no reason for you to put the (er) at the end of the sentence.

CKD was lynched day two - you later said your prime suspicion of me was because I didn't remove my vote from CKD after he claimed townie.

However, even with this post:

THE CKD TRAIN AS SLYSLY SEES IT

curiouskarmadog (6) -

Yosarian2

,

Beep! Beep!

,

NabakovNabakov

,

Skruffs

,

aioqwe

,

armlx

no suspicion

seemingly pro-town

highly suspicious

Why me, why not skruffs?

As you can see in my list, I have you and Skruffs in the same category(highly suspicious). I could just as easily be voting for Skruffs.

You decided to investigate Tss night two,a nd not anyone on that wagon?


Your claim is weak, as is your cult. However, you claiming as you did suggests that town DOES have a chance - if your cult was three strong, you could have just steamrolled me without claiming at all. You need another vote.

[Skruffs]

I don't need to refute your claim, but I did it anyways. TSS does not have the ability to explain his kills like I do; his claim is purely out of self defense.


And, to refute TSS entirely:

DrippingGoofball (Townie) - shot Night 1


Blazerunner (Roleblocker) - shot Night 2
vikingfan (Alarmist) - shot Night 2

The vig in the game shot Blazerunner night 2. I shot vikingfan.
That means that the only person who could have shot DGB n1 was.. the serial killer.
And we all know that TSS was roleblocked night one.

He couldn't have shot DGB; he can not possibly be the serial killer.

He's the cult recruitor.

[Skruffs]

-SlySly is telling the truth and is still a pro-town inquisitor; between his claim and Mnowax's, that would mean Skruffs is the cult leader.

The serial killer has a one shot night kill immunity, too.
Mnowax was roleblocked the night he says he tried to target you; the real vig targetted Blazerunner. (Not to say that Mnowax isn't necessarily a real vig, but he tried to fire night two, and was rbed, so his kill didn't go through regardless)

Sine the real vig targetted blazerunner, that means he did not fire night 1.

Sine hte real vig did not fire night one, the shooting of DGB had to have been done by the serial killer.

Vote: Skruffs

and

your friendly serial killer

says you're welcome.

The Silent Speaker has counter claimed as serial killer.

That would mean that he shot DGB night zero.

However:

I am a roleblocker turned cultist. What I needed to telll is this:

night zero I blocked TSS

. That is what I wanted at that time. Now, this info is really significant, both to tonw as to my recruiter. We can get to these conclusions.

Blazerunner blocked TSS night 0 - so he could not have shot DGB.

That means he can not be the serial killer.

And, if he is not the serial killer, and I am claiming serial killer who tried to kill him last night, but he is claiming serial killer, that means... that's right, that he is the cult recruitor.

The alternative would be that I am a cult recruitor and I recruited him last night, but if that were the case, I am pretty sure he would not be voting me right now; not with a "real" serial killer that would be able to shoot him tonight if I got lynched and turned up cult recruitor and with possibly a vig that could also shoot him.

No, The Silent Speaker is the cult recruitor.

I am the serial killer.

Asking a cult of people to counter claim a serial killer claim is stupid, Yos. Anyone can claim it.

TSS Already did, but you seemed to miss it and asked SlySly if he was counterclaiming.

Go ahead and vote TSS, Yos. Beep! said she is on vacation; when she comes back, she will vote me, most likely. IF you put TSS at three before she puts me at three, you have a chance of winning.

[Skruffs]

This is from June 4th, which is a long time after you had investigated TSS and he came up as non-cult:

I didn't investigate TSS, my predecessor did.

So you didn't believe the results of your predecessor? If he came up as non-cult when your predecessor investigated him, why would you later suggest that you might think that HE is the cult recruitor? You would already know there is no possible way. Saying that you 'forgot' you had investigated him really doesn't cut it - it's like saying "Oh yeah I got an innocent on him already, but he could still be a mafia goon" - which is a huge scum tell.

However, even with this post:

THE CKD TRAIN AS SLYSLY SEES IT

curiouskarmadog (6) -

Yosarian2

,

Beep! Beep!

,

NabakovNabakov

,

Skruffs

,

aioqwe

,

armlx

no suspicion

seemingly pro-town

highly suspicious

Why me, why not skruffs?

As you can see in my list, I have you and Skruffs in the same category(highly suspicious). I could just as easily be voting for Skruffs.

You decided to investigate Tss night two,a nd not anyone on that wagon?

My predecessor investigated TSS the night before. I investigate Yosarian2 who was on the wagon.

Oh?

You came into the game, though, with this:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the possibility that mnowax is a CL is high.

Why did you wait so long to investigate MNOWAX if you thought he was a cult recruitor from just after your reread? The entire day of CKD's lynch, you never tried to detract from it, you asked why there was a wagon on him, and that is all, while stating that you saw MNOWAX as a potential CL as very high.

Yet you didn't investigate him. That's odd, don't you think?

It doesn't matter. You *may* have been an Inquisitor, at some point, but now you are *definitely* his cult recruit, because TSS is the cult leader. Saying that you got an innocent on him just confirmed you as his cult recruit. Public game knowledge denies him the possibility of being a serial killer, which he has claimed.

THe kills are a huge breadcrumb leading to me as the SK. Nobody else can rationally claim the reasons for killing the people that have died as well as me. Well, they can try, but they will fail.

TSS is the cult recruitor. If you vote him now, you might be able to get a lynch on me with the other cults tomorrow and settle for a tie.

[Skruffs]

Yos, put tss at 3 before beep puts me at 3. Tss was roleblocked n1; the vig in the game (I don't care who it was) shot night two, which means they could not have, night one.

There was a kill night one, though, which means someone other than the vig who shot night two shot dgb night 1. That person is the sk. Tss did not perform any kills n1, therefore, he is not the sk.

Why are you stalling?

[Skruffs]

Once I figured out you weren't a newb, there was never any question in my mind that

you were going to be my first investigation.

Once I got the cult results on you, your scummy/newb-like play made perfect sense.

Night 3 - I investigated Yosarian2. result = not cult.
Night 4 - I investigated Skruffs. result = cult.
Night 5 - I investigated mnowax. result = not cult.

You said the "This sounds like a scummy newb" comment on May 8th.

Day ended May 22nd.

You investigated Yosarian2 that night. Not me.

Did it really take you several weeks after you said that I sounded like a newb, to look at the little "Joined" tag under my name? The "urgency" that you said you had that made you forget all about MNOWAX to target me suggests that it was literally an utmost thing for you to do; however, I Wasn't your first investigation. Yosarian2 was.


If you are going to fake claim, it really helps to fake came in a manner that doesn't contradict itself.

[Skruffs]

Yos:
If the cult had four people in it, they would automatically win today. Wether they lynched the SK or not, the sk could only kill one by tomorrow, and htey would still have the numbers to win.

The game would be over, therefore, if they had four people.

Three people though will possibly lose, but they have to have their leader lynched today to lose.

TSS has claimed SK, and I have proven how it's not possible that he is one.

Beep! started today saying that either me or you had to die, but yesterday she said she was not seeing me as scum. I think that Sly is the first recruit, and she is the second.

It's not possible for both you and Beep to be fuschian recruits, and I Don't care right now what you are. Even if you are, you can help your side win by betraying TSS but then getting the numbers at end game, but MY guess is that Beep is the other recruit, not you.

You need to step up to the plate and vote TSS. I (obviously) am not going to shoot anyone who helps keep me alive today.

[Skruffs]

Note the italicized. He makes sure that he lets us know that both a vig and a SK exists. This is not an open game, were not sure of the existence of the roles. How did he find out this information? No i am not a tracker. No i am not a watcher or alarmist.

I am a Vig. I didn't kill last night because i wanted to make sure i had a kill for night one of this game. Therefore, There IS a SK in this game as well as me, and although there will be an attempt to kill me, i will finish off Blaze in the night. If i happen to get recruited, i will spout the name of my leader immediately, So if you don't want me around, you must kill me.

I only say this because were getting close to lynch( i believe) and i want all my information out on the table before i die.

It's not a frame up, and you know it. Vollkan "could" have killed n2, and mnowax "could" have killed n1, which assumes that first of all, there are two vigs (when there have only been one of every other role). Also, Yosarian2 "could" have vigged n1, or perhaps BEep! is a second SK and vigged herself n1 as her predecesser.

You yourself said:

You seem remarkably sure that mnowax isn't cult.

He hasn't killed yet, you know.

Cult!mnowax explains that very nicely. But you don't want attention drawn to your recruit, do you?

You do not really think MNOWAX killed n1 and then claimed to have not killed with intents to shoot yosarian2; You believed his claim as much as anyone else because he wasn't in your cult.

Lastly: Why would you try to kill me last night, as the SK? Considering that I was under so much pressure to claim yesterday, you, as "the real SK" would not benefit by shooting me; you had almost certified me as NON-CL in one of your only posts yesterday;

I think Vollkan's death suggests that I am right about Beep. I think Aioqwe's death suggests that armlx is the other cult recruiter.

If both of those are correct, then Skruffs is not likely to be a recruiter. He could, of course, still be recruit or SK, but I note that mnowax has yet to kill anyone, and night 2 he jumped to the conclusion that Yos was scum

even though he was roleblocked in-thread.

I do not like assuming my co-players are morons.

If you thought Beep was the CL, why didn't you shoot at her?

Also,

If you were the SK, you would have claimed your kills as soon as you counter claimed me, instead of stalling as you did.

Thanks, Yosarian, I am telling the truth.

MNOWAX: If he doesn't die, I'm going to die, because one of hte two of us are going to be lynched.

Beep! - I guess everything's waiting on you to either confirm yourself as part of TSS's cult or to remain ambiguous and vote him.

[Skruffs]

Mnowax: me claining ensures I get lynched tomorrow; which is a better than the alternative!

Tss: you said earlier that mnowax hadn't even killed yet in this game, now you are saying he shot n1.

Can you explain why you would have intentionally shot a town rber? Also, where the vig expressed suspicion of vikingfan?

Also, the reasoning behind Sl and vollkan's shootings?

Also, how I 'knew' you were the sk this morning? Correct play for me as cl would e been to recruit mnowax, wouldn't it? Me recruiting vollkan earlier would confirm that

[Skruffs]

I shot people that I Thought were the cult - my impetus durign the entire game was to out the cult, adn I shot people that *I* thought were acting cult-like; it was rather improbable that there would be only ONE anti-town role in the entire game; it was possible, but very very unlikely. I saw Vikingfan and springlullaby and vollkan as very possible cultists or cult recruitors - The way vollkan and armlx protected SL the day before I Shot her suggested to me that maybe they WEREN'T cult, but after aioqwe showed up as cult, I immediately targetted vollkan the next night. I was sure he was cult, and also, he was on my case most of hte game and I Wanted to silence him.

Mnowax was never a vig. He claimed vig day oen to try and out the real vig and/or draw attention away from other people and confuse town. That's my guess.

As for the vig shooting the roleblocker, I don't know why he shot him. Perhaps it was because he claimed

recruit

up until the last page of day one? Perhaps he thought that if blazerunner was the cult recruitor, which is why he claimed Recruited RB'r, that both he and mnowax shooting him would result in a dead cult recruitor?

Explain your "other targets". You're still stalling.

[Skruffs]

TSS: You think that SlySly is exactly as he claims, eh? It htink it's amusing you have ignored SlySly all day today, even though he has claimed to be an inquisitor who can 'confirm' you aren't the mafia cultleader. Unfortunately for SlySly:

You are completely immune to investigations and cult recruitment, and the first attempt to kill you at night will fail.

He would not have received a result from investigating you, if you were the serial killer. Since he's claimed results on both of us, that means he's lying about his claim; and why would he lie about me being a cultist if I had recruited him? Logic dictates that you have recruited him.

Is there a reason why you killed dripping goofball?

Vote: Bladerunner

This suggests to me, cotrary to your theory, that MNOWAX did not shoot DGB as a vig. He's not the SK, which means Mnowax didn't shoot DGB. Now, in your "analysis" that "fits together perfectly" (funny how you keep saying everything fits together, but somehow the pieces DON'T, which leaves you an out, just like yesterday, mmm?), you say:

Yos, please please unvote me. My account of events makes sense: n1 armlx targets you, fails, mnowax shoots DGB, I target Occult, fail, Blazerunner blocks me; d1 mnowax claims vig, I start gunning (in-thread) for Occult;

n2 armlx recruits the newly claimed vig

, I shoot the newly claimed blocker, mnowax can't shoot, vollkan targets scummiest remaining player in vikingfan; d2 newly recruited mnowax claims to have targeted and failed the person his leader couldn't recruit, hoping to get a threat lynched (this is why I infer that an attempted recruit of you failed); n3 armlx targets vollkan, who can't shoot because he shot last night, and mnowax lost his gun on recruitment; n4 armlx tries to recruit Skruffs, fails; d4

mnowax goes after his cult leader's failed recruit hoping to get a threat lynched.

My way, everything fits together. It even answers armlx's objection of yesterday about mnowax being an unlikely n1 recruitment target, since you are definitely a likely one. Skruffs's way makes no sense.

However, if SlySly is really the inquisitor, Mnowax would have shown up as cut long before night five - which means that he HAS to be lying, or Mnowax isn't a cult. For Mnowax not to be a cult, means that he also can't be a vig, recruited or otherwise, or else he would not be claiming to have shot people etc and them not dying, etc.

So why would SlySly vote me for two days in a row, saying that I was a cultist, and probably a cult leader? It would make sense if he was in Armlx's cult, and was trying to protect his own cult leader, but today he is DEFINITELY protecting you and trying to get me lynced. We *know* for certain that he is definitely fake claiming, which means he is in a cult. Now you seem to not have thought at ALL that he might be in 'my cult', you are focussing your attention on it being mnowax or beep beep - or both. This was an error of omission on your part.


You still haven't explained how you decided on each night kill. Or even who your night kills were. Similarly, you say that everythign pieces together well, but you are only piecing together information with known roles, and filling in some cracks to help hold things together, without any 'in game' knowledge of the SK. Who did I recruit each night? If B!B! is my recruit, why did she start the day saying me or Yos has to die? I had claimed unrecruitable - and you seem to think that Yos is as well, which suggests that both you and B!B! are on the same team far more than I am.

Who do you think I targetted each night, and why? Or do you think me and you targetted the same people?


Lastly: Aioqwe did not refer to TSS except for once, when he asked BR if they thought two players were vigs and if TSS was the SK. He had no problem, though going after me full force. Beep Beep, Sly, and Aioqwe ALL voting me or tihnking I am scum towards the end of the game, and you are still trying to push that I'm a cult recruitor. I must be the Emo Cult Recruitor, I make people suicidal after they join my cult. And it's not a matter of WIFOM: cultists RARELY vote their cult recruitor.

[Skruffs]

Or:

I have a problem with it, because I think he'd be a better lynch

vote: skruffs

[Skruffs]

Oh, and mnowax, I'm not naïve. I know that everyone else's best option tomorrow is to lynch me, if tss gets lynched today. It's a personal win to outlast both cult leaders, but I don't really know how to keep myself from being lynched tomorrow. I probably won't even kill tonight, unless I am feeling mean spirited, and if I do shoot, it'll probably be slysly.what I am saying is, there's no options for a joint win; after the cult recruitors are dead, sk becomes the next priority. I sacrificed my own chances to survive at all, in exchange for one extra day, hopefully. I'll live with it.

[Skruffs]

Again, you eliminated slysly as a poss recruit even though his claim directly contradicts your claim and mnowax being a cultist.

[Skruffs]

Tss tried to kill me last night, right?

[Skruffs]

I feel a little biit bad that tss's recruit, fake claiming in an attempt to clear him and get me lynched, wound up making it harder for tss to weasel out of getting lynched. Tss made the mistake of defending/ignoring his own recruit. Slysly "confirming" mno as unrecruited (tho he is) means that if slyly and mno were telling the truth, the only person in the game that could have absorbed the sk's kill was tss. Tss literally has to claim not to have shot anyone OR claim that (apparenntly) mno and tss are both my recruits attempting a double reverse psychology paychobluff, the likes of which have been in play since day one, originating solely from mno's brain.

Every single player alive has stated willingness to lynch me, today, in this game. Two players, both with incredibly faulty claims, attempted to clear each other, and a third has mentioned tss's name only once in the entire game.

[Skruffs]

You still haven't provided a list of every supposed target.

[Skruffs]

What about last night?

[Skruffs]

Night 1 - my predecessor investigated Occult/Beep. result = not cult.

Night 2 - my predecessor investigated TSS. result = not cult.

Night 3 - I investigated Yosarian2. result = not cult.
Night 4 - I investigated Skruffs. result = cult.

Night 5 - I investigated mnowax. result = not cult.

Both of these results are impossible, because if, as you are trying ot push, TSS was the SK, you would not have received an investigation from him, as he is IMMUNE, and B, There is nobody in the game that he could have shot who would not have died after Mnowax shot me, if he were the SK and mnowax were the vig as he claimed day one.

I am not trying to 'convince' you to vote your cult leader, as I have said I Am most likely to shoot you tonight, so betraying your own side and then losing yourself doesn't leave you with any options. But how do you like knowing that your own fake claim wound up outing your boss even more?

[Skruffs]

I lied. I don't feel bad about TSS. I think it's hilarious. I commend TSS for not just giving up adn voting himself though. I guess that means he is waiting for Beep! Beep! to offer some sort of claim - like RB'er maybe - to give himself more weight. A RB'er claim would suggest two vigs as well, and she could claim to have blocked mnowax the night he tried to shoot me, which is why I still had a kill left over when TSS tried to shoot me last night.

Another 5 days and we will see.

[Skruffs]

I think that mnowax seemed to be a cult so early on that anyone else trying to recruit him would result in A) cults being exposed (Something that didn't happen until more than three days had passed, I think), and result in no net gain for the cultist who would be trying to recruit him, as monwax would die if both cults wind up targetting him.

What I think happened is:
n1- TSS was blocked so it doesn't matter who he targetted.
n2- aioqwe
n3- sly sly
n4- incinerated nabnab
n5- tried to incinerate me, thinking that mnowax may have actually vigged me once already.

n4 i the tricky one, though. If armlx incinerated nabnab, then TSS probably tried to recruit yosarian2 or beepbeep. I don't htink yosarian2 is in TSS's cult, though, or else he wouldn't be voting him. That leaves either he incinerated nab, or recruited beep. And we'll be finding out today which it is, won't we?

[Skruffs]

Welcome back Beep! Beep!!
Please catch up and do whatever soon.

[Skruffs]

Well, if you want me lynched, you are going to have to convince Yosarian2 or Mnowax to unvote TSS, because TSS is at 3, and the person who gets to three first gets lynched at deadline.

If you are town or part of hte headless cult, then you should vote TSS. If you are part of TSS's cult and want to hedge your bets, you should vote him and hope to make a comeback later in the game after me and (possibly) mno are dead.

If you are part of TSS's cult and want to win, then you have to get me lynched, which means you should claim something that you aren't and try to convince Mno or Yos to unvote you.
The best way to try and convince them would be (I think) to claim a roleblocker; it would lead credence to TSS's "There are two vigs" theory because it would lead everyone to think that there might be TWO roles that there are more than one of.

You can also counterclaim SlySly as inquisitor (which is what I thought you were, yesterday), and push that SlySly is actually my recruit trying to badly fake claim to double bluff everyone into thinking he's TSS's recruit.

[Skruffs]

more simulposting!

[Skruffs]

I will most likely kill sly sly, or nobody.

[Skruffs]

I'm not going to kill mnowax or yosarian2 because right now they are the least thread. It is possible that B!B! is in a cult too and is hedging her bets or she might be town. If MNOWAX is really a vig, then him shooting me tonight clears him, and it doesn't matter who I kill because I'm dead anyways. I'm a reformed sk for now.

[Skruffs]

Mno, you have to shoot me. We had a good run, but we don't have the ability to change our win conditions. You're going to have to put me down like old yeller, before I attack yer ma.

[Skruffs]

Actually, theoretically, in my situation, the optical situation is to keep yos alive as a presumed unrecruitable townie, and keep mno and sly sly alive as vying cults who will need me lynched tomorrow. So theoretically my ideal shot would be the unknown element of b!b!, who is probably town, for a 1:1:1:1 endgamed in which yos would get to decide which scumgroup he wanted to lose to.

That would be the 'ideal' strategy for me, but I would rather shoot the corrupt cop who tried to get me lynched over beep beep, so.

[Skruffs]

Mno: your vig would probably be more useful if you held onto it one more night.

[Skruffs]

Allright.
Well, Beep! Beep! was a wild card, and turned out to be town. So, it's, I think, up to Yosarian2 to decide which faction should win.

Vote: SlySly

, though, I know how I'd prefer it to end.

[Skruffs]

Um.

Mnowax:
I listed that shooting the unknown Beep! Beep! was the best option for me as the SK yesterday, bu said I would probably be shooting SlySly or nobody. I did shoot Beep! though, to make the 1:1:1:1 end game.

If you are the vig, and you thought I was shooting Sly, then shooting ME (And finishing me off if you were the vig) would have 'ended the game', as you would be confirmed, Yos would be clearable (he is obviously the unrecruitable, which I didn't really push yesterday but because of his subtle counterclaiming two days ago seemed obvious) would result in a 2:1 against SlySly yesterday.

Yosarian2: You should unvote me. The two cults can have a tied win by voting you tomorrow; there is no reason to do a happily ever after. They do not need you.

[Skruffs]

Or you can vote me; either way, it's impossible for you to win. You are choosing a hopeful "happily ever after" win with the assumption that both of the cultists will not vote you tomorrow, vs a straight up loss to SK endgame. I'm kind of surprised that you would choose to allow two cults to win along with you just to kill the SK.

Lastly, if you really do want to believe that Mnowax is a secondary vig and that he shot last night and I didn't, you are also assuming, then, that Mnowax is a Vig and not a secondary SK.

Unfortunately I already have two votes against me, so I'm lynched if SlySly doesn't hammer. Perhaps he will hammer me, or perhaps he will vote Mnowax with me. I think it's funny that of all the targetes, you would think that Beep! would have chosen to protect the least likely to be recruited and the least likely to be telling the truth.

Vote: Mnowax

ANd Yos, I will still shoot SlySly tonight. If you want to talk about Happily Ever After after all possibilities of a cult is eliminated, that is fine by me. I just want the cults dead, first.

[Skruffs]

It was pretty well discussed that Yosarian2 was not cult, by pretty much everyone present. You are cerulean, Slysly is fuschian, Yos was the townie, I was the Sk, and B! was the ??? that could have been any of them. The only safe thing for me to do was to shoot Beep. If I had said "I am going to shoot Beep", knowing that she was potentially in any cult group, I had no way of knowing if she would fake claim something (As a cultist) to try to get Yosarian2 to unvote me. I had to convince her that lynching TSS was the best option for her EVEN if she was in SlySly and TSS's scum group. I had to bite my tongue about knowing that Yos was unrecruitable due to his counterclaiming me for the same reason: Saying I knew he was unrecruitable could have given him the impression that I had tried to recruit him and failed; and I absolutely needed Yosarian's vote at that time.

If you were really the Vig and you thought I was shooting Sly, your best option would have been NOT to shoot; to let me think you were the cult, to lynch Beep, and to then finish me off the following night. You've repeatedly said things that went against known facts through the entire game, so you have the 'capability' of claiming to have not known any of these things that were PUBLICLY discussed, and it seems quite possbile that Yosarian2 will even believe you. If he does, it's not really in my hands. I set up a4 way end game with the hopes that Yos would go for the SK-win (which I think Yosarian has to admit is the hardest possbile win in this game) over the idea of a loss or tie of cults, but in the end, the choice really is completely Yosarian's.

[Skruffs]

Lastly: I don't think you ever were a vig, mnowax. I think you were originally a mason, and you claimed Vig early because you thought that it might shake some discussion up at best and that you could claim mason if things came to be the very worst (Which they didn't).

The mason Role PM sort of agrees with that theory, the wording says "You are a Mason; the rest of your group is

• . You know that everyone in your group is pro-town... for now. You may communicate with any living members at night.
  
  Some members of your group may be immune to cult recruitment. However, you are not one of them.
  
  You win when any threats to the town are eliminated, or if you join a cult before its takeover is inevitable.
  
  (In my games, I prefer to be kept in the loop on Night discussion; if you get the chance to communicate, please keep me in touch somehow: give me a link to a forum, or CC me on PMs, or whatever)"
  
  This tells me that there are at least three members of the masons. I believe that there likely WAS a cop, which SlySly has already fake claimed, which leaves you as the last mason. I wasn't sure if Beep! was it or not, but CKD's post below kind of confirms that you started off as a mason:
  

  vollkan..not just that..[n]I dont like the vote and dont understand why people are voting mno when at best he could be a recruit[/b]..we should be trying to hit a recruiter, dont you agree?

[Skruffs]

vollkan..not just that..

I dont like the vote and dont understand why people are voting mno when at best he could be a recruit

..we should be trying to hit a recruiter, dont you agree?

This is a breadcrumb of MNOwax's masonry.

Yosarian2, I can promise not to shoot you and go for the happily ever after, sans-cult, ending, but I think you can do better than to plea bargain with two opposing cults who win by turning against each other or you tomorrow.

[Skruffs]

Yosarian2.

You know that Mnowax is goign to vote Stark tomorrow; he's setting himself up today to try to convince you he is protown.

You are going to let Mnowax decide who wins the game.

Fine.

So would the better solution for me, yesterday, have been to have not claimed and let TSS and slySly win? I'm really not getting why you even bothered to vote TSS if you are just going to let his team win anyways because of Mnowax.

I can go along with the "Happily Ever After" ending as easily as anyone else is. I think it's foolish to expect Mnowax to play along. But it's your ofuneral. I just don't get why you woulud decide to buddy up witht eh cultists as an unrecruitable townie in the last day.

Also, if Mnowax *Wasn't* a cult, he could have won yesteday, EASILY, by voting me and asking TSS to recruit him after the lynch.

This is the thanks I get for keeping you from losing the game.

[Skruffs]

I guess that Yosarian2 is in Mno's pocket. Stupid. I kind of hope that Yos is a second SK who chose not to kill at all the entire game. I can't even rail for SlySly/Stark to help me out, because I'm already at 2. HE can hammer me and get lynched tomorrow, I guess, or vote Mno and hope that Yos follows him and that I don't shoot him. In the end, it still all comes down to Yosarian2, and I'm not buddy buddy enough with him to pull on his emotions enough to convince him to give me the win over Mno or Stark.

Unvote

There's really no point in pushing for a Mno lynch until Yos re-weighs in.

[Skruffs]

sorry skruffs you should have taken the joint town deal.

I didn't shoot the night you shot Beep! beep!. I took the deal, you renigged. I decided not to out you as the real vig to make sure Stark also got screwed.

In hind sight, I *should* have shot Yosarian2 and hoped that Mno would vote stark or beep before they voted him (because I thought it was beep and stark vs mno).

Mno, you completely tried to derail the attack on Armlx day four, don't even try to say you didn't. You were voting me the entire day.

[Skruffs]

I out lasted both cult leaders, which, as someone who didn't have any 'allies', was I think pretty remarkable. I knew when I had to claim that I was dead, I was hoping that luck would swing my way but, ti didn't.

I was an SK in three games, nearly all at the same time, and none of them ended at all well for me. Shot by BM, lynched in endgame, and lynched in endgame again.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs: The timing dosn't matter, the mod wasn't using those kind of deadline rules.

If you'd been right, then killing one of that cult might have been your best move, since in a 1v1v1v1 endgame, I probably would have gone for a draw. It was just mnowax being town, and me semi-beliving him, that cost you the game; otherwise it was a good plan.

Well if I *had* shot SlySly, then you would have known that Mnowax was a real vig and lynching me would be the obvious choice.. if I had shot you, then Mno would be the deciding factor; sly would want to lynch me, and mno as town would have to pick which choice he'd prefer (or he could No lynch).

[Skruffs]

BTW:
Armlx got steamrolled before he really had a chance to defend himself, but I *do* Want to commend TSS and SlySly for their play the day TSS got lynched. I Think it was a pretty close call for a while, and it was unfortunate that SlySly's fake claimed wound up getting his leader lynched, but I liek how TSS stuck to it to the end in an attempt to convince everyone. Well played.