Cultafia: Game over

[aioqwe]

Reading page 8. I will post when I'm more caught up.

[aioqwe]

First, I would like to say sorry. I'm using an older laptop right now and it crashed 5 times yesterday while I tried to finish up reading and responding. So as much I love y'all, I gave up.

I don't know if this was asked/answered but MOD: were leaders allowed to talk to their recruits last night?

unvote
vote: occult

Seems like Blaze's cult leader. His first 11 posts are very content light. And he kindly sprinkled in some defense for Blaze. That's wonderful leader action don't you think? Stay on the low while trying to make sure your new recruit doesn't get lynched to quickly. However after, Blaze claims this guy is all for Blaze's death. EVEN with all of the disusion on how we should focus our efforts on killing the leader. He continues to insinuate that there is a possibility of Blaze being the leader trying to pull of a gambit that the recruit stays alive longer than the leader. On the otherhand, as a leader, occult would want to get rid of Blaze so that he can't be associated with the leader.

Mno, assuming you are telling the truth now, you are a vig. We don't know the number of anything in this game as stated in the roles post. For all you (or anyone) knows, the entire town could be comprised of vigs. Second, we (and you) don't know if the DGB was killed by the SK or a second vig. The OP and roles post, tends to suggest however, that our town has 2 cults and 1 sk.

I specifically re-read occult a bit because he stood out the most during my read. I've finished reading the thread but I want to take the oppurtunity to look at everyone's post by themselves. I may come back and do a summary on everyone if I feel that it is necessary.

[aioqwe]

As a claimed recruit he's going to die today, tonight, or tomorrow. It would have been better to claim roleblocker (rather than converted). As a recruit, his claim draws attention away from his leader.

Pulling 180s when being called out for something tends to draw suspicion.

Lynching a possible leader is better than lynching recruit, in general. In this situation I think we should try and find the leader to lynch.

What's the case against spring again?

[aioqwe]

Sorry, my laptop at home is broken and I'm writing this from a computer at school. I'll start posting again as soon as I get my laptop back.

[aioqwe]

Before I forget

unvote

I read to this point, I will catch up the rest later I hope but I just want to give this comment. (and that pages 1 to 3 are pretty much nulltell fights to get the game started, as far as I can tell)

In a normal game, I would agree with you. But in a game like this, I could see a random cult recruit intentionally sacrificing himself in order to cause one random mislynch; it might not be a bad trade for the cult in this game.

In my first reread I was also thinking almost this when reading. If mnowax is recruited first night*, he might play this ploy to gain 2 more nights for his cult, at the cost of possible one casualty: Blazerunner is killed today, and if found innocent mnowax is killed tomorrow, but as stated before a recruit-lynch is no that much better than a mislynch for town.

The main question under this ploy theory is why choosing blazerunner?

*we can assume there were two** possible new recruits, and as there is noone killed by the cultleaders they recruited different players, and one recruitment could have gone trough (or 0 or 2)

**for the sake of the argument when we have two cult leaders, could be for instance 3 as well.

Didn't balzerunner claim recruit? so are you suggesting mnowax is the leader? And I doubt we'll have too many sacrifices because the two cults are competing and one would be down (compared to the other) if they go with this sacrificing members plan.

Can we have Occult lynched? He has freakn' cult in his name...

[aioqwe]

So SL is (theoretically) a cult leader? Who is her recruit?

[aioqwe]

The more this continues the more inclined I am to believe armlx/yos. Personally I wouldn't call it mindless puppy following. That's more like people who just pop in to post QFT! or whatever.

[aioqwe]

sorry about not posting- I need to review the thread a bit. Why is Mno voting himself? How does voting yourself help emphasize a point?

[aioqwe]

quick prod-pick up... still reading...

[aioqwe]

Is anyone else finding it hard to understand the back-and-forth between skruffs/volkan/armlx? Or atleast hard to inject points?

[aioqwe]

I'm still re-reading since I felt I should give the game a bit more attention.

Meanwhile, @armlx: I can't necessarily speak for my predecessor, but I'll give a more detailed comment once I've read to that point. (I forgot, but didn't you recently mention that replacements shouldn't necessarily be held responsible for the replaced’s actions?) I was suspicious of Occult yesterday mostly because of his support for blazerunner who claimed cult recruit. His seemed to provide subtle defense, until blazerunner "claimed" Which would seem consistent with what a leader would do to a new a recruit. Since blazerunner turned out to not be a recruit or leader, my suspicion of him has waned a bit.

[aioqwe]

My point is that someone who is criticizing another for 'not pulling their own weight', and is at the same time is relying on other people to form cases FOR THEM to review, is in fact criticizing OTHER players for not pulling THEIR OWN weight.

I think what you meant to say is that someone who is criticising other people for not pulling their weight whilst, simultaneously, relying on others for cases to review is not pulling their weight.

I agree. I don't see the relevance of that though. We have:
1) You making a dodgy case and not 'pulling your weight'
2) Armlx making scant contribution other than criticising your case's lack of 'weight'

Neither of those is a good thing, and neither justifies the other. Armlx not pulling his weight does not legitimise you rejecting his "demand for significant amounts of proof from other people".

You got that wrong. I *never* have to legetimize a rejection of someone else's demand that I do ANYTHING for them. I have no obligation to do ANYTHING for armlx or anyone else who tells me to make cases for them to follow. What you should have said was that him not pulling his own weight does not justify me making dodgy cases, which would actually have applied, IF he had demanded I make a case before I made a dodgy one.

Now you are just playing semantics. Of course you don't

have

to obey any instruction - this is a game. You no more need to obey an instruction to post a case, or post a proper case, then you need to obey an instruction to only post in pig Latin. The point is, however, that making cases, arguing, and so forth is what drives this game.

Let me be blunt: I really dislike the fact that you would refer to the level of activity of somebody else as a means by which to bypass a criticism of your case.

At the most rudimentary summary of the events:

Umm, Hjallti replaced in pretty recently, the number of responses to his posts is going to be limited regardless of who it is. I also responded to his major post about there beign 2 vigs and what not, agreeing with the logic.

You also suggest I should auto know thats your only reason, which is pretty stray to vote off of. Maybe at the start of day one its worth a vote, but afterwards its merely one piece to add to a full case. I assumed you had more than just that.

Skruffs, I am unimpressed with the effort you are putting into this game. You really need to step up your reading and analysis before I consider anything you have said. I quite frankly ignored your posts yesterday as you were commenting on 7 page old content out of current context.

Amlx - you and the person he replaced also didn't discuss each other.

You quoted the thing from hjltill, didn't comment on it except to bring attention to it,a nd then questioned why someone else brought it up.

It really does not bother me if you are 'unimpressed' by me. I'm actually used to people using my 'lack of reason' as an excuse to ignore me - IF you want, I will compile a list of the percentage of people who say stuff like that and turn out ot be scum.

I am interested, not in your focus on only targeting cult-recruiters, but in your demand for significant amounts of proof from other people to explain why they are focusing on cult recruiters.

I'm kind of curious about your attitude - you seem to be rather lofty and comfortable in the position you are in. Why?

Also, you did talk about hjalltill in another post:

<snip>

I think it's interesting that you have no problem criticizing other people's attempts at pushing things, but you yourself admit that you have no leads. You criticize me, apparently, for suggestuing you should 'auto-know' my reasons for doing things, but YOUR attitude is that you do not have any intentions of investigating motivations and such, yourself. Which is why I am asking if you can be so comfortable in your place in the game as to be so critical of others and unhelpful yourself.

You don't explain the significance of the point you make against Hjallti. Instead, you go on a tirade against Armlx for criticising your activity level. It's patently evasive. The number of posts made by somebody is irrelevant to the question of whether or not your own case is substantial or not.

Really, the most you ought to have said would be:
"Hey, armlx. Post a scumdar."

Instead, your bring his lack of content in as a relevant factor. The clearest example of this to me was when you said:

I think that people, if they are going to criticize the 'quality' of other player's probings and cases, should at the very least offer their own in return.

The fact that you made a dodgy case is not, in and of itself, relevant here. The issue is with how you dealt with criticism of it.

To repeat myself,

Volkan: I can appriciate a good debate as well as anyone, trust me; but, um, any thoughts on who might be scum?

In fact,

vote:Volkan

. With a deadline, I'm starting to wonder if he's intentionally drawing out a pointless debate, repeating the same points over and over again, just to stall us out. I wouldn't mind if he was actually voting for Skruffs and/or making a case against Skruffs, but as it just feels like he's trying to look active for the sake of trying to look active but not really doing anything helpful.

I see two points here. 1) You can't see any point to the argument, therefore 2) it is most likely I am scum trying to lead people up a never-ending staircase.

2) is conjecture and unfalsifiable. It's your assumption as to my motive and I can say no more about it.

However, 2) is very much dependent on 1) being true. And I can address 1). Do I think Skruffs is scummy on the basis of our argument? Yes. I haven't voted for him simply because I am trying to see if I can understand where he is coming from. Suffice to say, that I do think Skruffs is scummy - primarily from the fact that he strikes out against Armlx's level of content in defence of his own, which expands through the argument we have been having.

This sort of stuff makes me scared to re-read. (Gah! I can't even type correctly...)

[aioqwe]

I don't think skruffs is a newb.

[aioqwe]

What's your theory armlx?

SS seems town based his behavior.

[aioqwe]

Hjallti being vig based on his posting of the 2 vig theory. Though the penguin FOSing mno for claiming a kill she made thing no longer fits into this theory, which was another one of the vig tells I thought I had on Hjallti. If you can see any flaws with this logic, let me know.

So you believe Hjalti is vig A or B, which? and TSS is an/the SK?

[aioqwe]

Which question Spring?

[aioqwe]

Assuming this is what you were referring to,

Also, what struck me at the end of D1, when I realized that I had possibly misinterpreted stuff, were the people 'on my side'. Skruff kinda counts in that category. So does aioqwe, I'd like him to explain this:

The more this continues the more inclined I am to believe armlx/yos. Personally I wouldn't call it mindless puppy following. That's more like people who just pop in to post QFT! or whatever.

I was agreeing with yos/armlx that claiming is not good. I didn't think that armlx was mindlessly following yos around.

On that note, armlx insistence on spring being a vig might make him seem like a recruit as he is backtracking on his original opinions of not claiming. However, I'm undecided on this.

[aioqwe]

Also, aioqwe, I never said SL should claim

The way you broadcast your theory makes it seem as such. Regardless, that would only put you in the position of recruit and I think it's more important to be looking for recruiters.

Mno seems to be playing pretty cluelessly. Makes me want to

vote:Mno

.

[aioqwe]

What's the case against CKD?
I still like the Mno wagon tho.

[aioqwe]

So that's like a bandwagon, with

limited

no reasoning? ew. Although, Mno seems CR-ier imo.

[aioqwe]

Why'd you target Yos again?

[aioqwe]

I'm pretty sure you stated a reason regarding yos and lurking. Is this backtracking?

You could not have found anyone who was scummier and thus chose randomly? How would this action make sense for a town member?

Why didn't you follow through and kill Blaze as you stated in thread?

[aioqwe]

That was seriously bad claiming. GG.

vote: CKD

[aioqwe]

This'll be my last post before deadline unless something EXTRAORDINARY happens.

[aioqwe]

Great, now the cultists can infiltrate the mason society, if that's what he is.

In my read through I just keyed in on that and didn't think about steadfasts. My bad.

[aioqwe]

There are cases against him and I felt there was a strong enough case against him as scum. Furthermore, I don't think that the proper mason play is to claim as what skruffs said would be applicable. Thus, I felt that it was a bad claim and he was scum.

Furthermore, if I'm going to counter-claim, I'd make it more obvious. I hate iffy counterclaims that are like, you know, I meat be mason I might not be...

[aioqwe]

There are cases against him and I felt there was a strong enough case against him as scum. Furthermore, I don't think that the proper mason play is to claim as what skruffs said would be applicable. Thus, I felt that it was a bad claim and he was scum.

He claimed mason, there is appoximately a 0% chance of him being a recruiter.

Furthermore, if I'm going to counter-claim, I'd make it more obvious. I hate iffy counterclaims that are like, you know, I meat be mason I might not be...

If you are scum, you could also phrase your posts in an iffy way to mislead other people, which is exactly what I believe you were doing.

I'm not making that connections

My intention wasn't to mislead. If I was going to counterclaim I would have stated that it was a counterclaim. The post that I made was meant as I didn't think that that was a good/believable claim (hence, bad claim...).

(one that doesn't work if CKD is steadfast as he claimed

There is no question now, SL was steadfast and CKD wasn't.

curiouskarmadog (Mason) - lynched Day 2

Springlullaby II (Steadfast Mason) - shot Night 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE CKD TRAIN

curiouskarmadog (6) - Yosarian2, Beep! Beep!, NabakovNabakov, Skruffs, aioqwe, armlx

----

THE CKD TRAIN AS SLYSLY SEES IT

curiouskarmadog (6) -

Yosarian2

,

Beep! Beep!

,

NabakovNabakov

,

Skruffs

,

aioqwe

,

armlx

no suspicion

seemingly pro-town

highly suspicious

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vote: aioqwe

Yes, we know now, but recruiters/recruits might pile on because they didn't know if he was steadfast or not yesterday.

Why me, why not skruffs? You liked him yesterday. If your suspicions change then that would imply that I'm a recruit and the proper play would be to focus on recruiters.

[aioqwe]

Aioque- Did you seriously just say you were a recruit?

This is in the same vein as counter claims and such. I would't discreetly do such thing. Anyways, no I'm not claiming. I'm simply pointing out that it is flawed logic to vote for me if you see a sudden change in my behavior. Rather you should look for a recruiter. That said, I need to review the thread a bit more before I can bring to the table any ideas as to who a recruiter might be.

You are asking Mno an interesting question and I want to see it answered. Mno's behavior throughout the entire game seems fishy. I'm trying to comprehend it now.

[aioqwe]

As you can see in my list, I have you and Skruffs in the same category(highly suspicious). I could just as easily be voting for Skruffs.

Would you care to explain your suspicions in a little more depth. For example, how did you ascertain these suspicions?

[aioqwe]

Yup, my recruiter is N-N, skruffs is also in the cult

[aioqwe]

EBWOP: armlx is also with it. Join us, we've got cookies and tigers and niblers and some other stuff.

[aioqwe]

What did I do armlx? I just claimed a recruit and gave out my fellow cultees like a good townie wood

Yup, my recruiter is N-N, skruffs is also in the cult

EBWOP: armlx is also with it.

Surely, you jest!

Isn't it against the rules to expose your scum buddies and their hierarchies like that?

No N-N is actually my leader have fun lynching him You can lynch me next, but it's better to get rid of leaders first eh

But yeah, I'm town.

-------------------

For example, how did you ascertain these suspicions?

By process of elimination during examination of the CKD wagon.

Of the 6 responsible for the CKD mislynch, it was more or less a coin flip decision between the two I found the most suspicious. I felt the pressure would be better put on you at this point in the game.

Okay, I also intended how you arrived at how everyone else is "seemingly pro-town" or "no-suspicion". Do you see anyone who is somewhat scum?

[aioqwe]

I'm back:
I think I'll change my stance on Mno from yesterday. I think he can be a vig still... although he might be a recruit now. I am unsure. I don't think he is a CR-er.
I am town. I didn't recruit armlx or anyone for that matter. Why are we still discussing this? Although, I do agree with yos being "most cunning manipulator"
I think Volkan is going somewhere with his attack on skruffs.
I don't understand what BB is doing.

[aioqwe]

A better question to ask is, if aio is lynched and turns up town, who would you vig?

Because that is what would actually happen.

Why is armlx ejecting himself from the conversation? Although, I would request volkan and skruff to please try and contain their posts a tad. It's very annoying for others to try and inject comments into pages and pages of posts...

[aioqwe]

Your first quote doesn't make sense.

I think people are latching onto the "If your suspicions change then that would imply that I'm a recruit and the proper play would be to focus on recruiters." bit too much. That wasn't a soft-claim, "I'm a recruit" or whatever, I was stating that Sly's logic is flawed. If your opinions are suddenly changing overnight, then it is a sign of a recruit as opposed to a recruiter. We should still be aiming for leaders (this doesn't mean that lynching a recruit is bad, and if someone claims recruit (aside from blaze ) that puts them in immediate consideration because they are associating themselves with cults). Furthermore, my thought was that SS might be in a cult due to the fact that he is jumping on a wagon of a recruit rather than pushing a case on what is more likely a recruiter (given the evidence/logic from his perspective).

Whatever the case is, I'm town. Skruff's second quote is completely a joke. Notice how I associated everyone attacking me with my "cult"?

Volkan, when you do argue with skruffs, can we please put like a word limit on you guys arguments? Information and discussion is good, but after a certain point it has the opposite effect, people become disinclined to read through mountainous posts and townies hence don't see through to the key points.

[aioqwe]

I have a problem with it, because I think he'd be a better lynch

vote: skruffs

[aioqwe]

I don't think the first post was a joke. I think you threw out the second post exactly for hte reason you did: A joke that you could erite off later, if you survived. IF you didn't survive, it looks like a lot of WIFOM connections to several living players in the game that, presumably, would give town a turkey chase to go after.

You have done nothing to actually HUNT for scum in this game. You are voting me SOLELY because you think I am a competing lynch and you want to be part of something without making yourself vulnerable.

It's a joke nothing more to it. I added in armlx in the second post because I didn't see his attack in the post right before the first post.

Also, I have no idea why I was voting you.

vote: slysly

. BTW if you want some who is lying low try SS or BB! I mean BB doesn't really post that much.

My first day I was presenting a case against occult, but that ended up going nowhere and I kind of had a falling out with the game ever since you and volkan started mountain posting.

[aioqwe]

EDBWOP: unvote, vote: slysly

[aioqwe]

EDBWOP:

unvote, vote: slysly

Gr.

[aioqwe]

what's so obvious about me being scum?

[aioqwe]

Do I really have to claim?

Why are we making a jump that armlx is my recruit/recruiter? Why are we assuming that I am scum?

I can see beep! as a leader because all of the lurking coming from her.

SS, which part is wrong? If it's about me and armlx, yes. Otherwise why is beep not a leader? Is it because you're in her cult?