Why Gun?? - Town Win

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Anyway, the thing I wanted to ask you is as the other person who tipsy is SRing do you think their take is +scum or just +terrible?

if i said this feels like a loaded question with evil intentions, what would you tell me in response?

I’d say do you not expect me to call a spade a spade?

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Also can u like answer it either way

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Yes

Not because of the inconsistency but because I think they’re bullshitting their take on me/you

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Not really, I think you’re just town at this point

Here’s a gift:

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You’re welcome

Maybe like morning or keiji but ehhh

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No one really makes sense tho

It’s like

Idk if you really work with keiji but maybe

I’m not sure you and Isis have interacted like I might expect if you were scum together

And I don’t think the scumteam’s entire plan is very likely to be “step 1) both hardpocket mena 2) ??? 3) PROFIT”

So probably just town by now

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Doesn’t really remind me of calendar when you were scum hydraing with ali

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Can you do one of your triangle read charts?

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mena/k&s likely same alignment

Okay I’m defo interested in this one

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And mine was for being selected as the best up-and-comer on site from 2019, if it was a question to me

[Menalque]

What about me and morning, what do you think is happening there?

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what'd you think of the rest of my readslist?

It makes me want to kill porkens or tipsy more and norwee slightly less

Broadly agree but the clustering of the names in the bottom left is a little unclear. I think it will be interesting to see another one later on maybe when there are less slots in the game

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I just find it interesting because I feel like MT and I have been very aligned in our reads throughout the game (more so than keiji/me) and so i guess I’m wondering why you don’t think we might be a pairing

I think i get it though, as in you’re seeing that me and keiji are doing broadly similar things but not being quite so openly in agreement on things/there’s not the same interaction between the two of us as there are between MT and me

And it makes me want to kill norwee less in comparison because, and don’t take this the wrong way, I’m currently of the belief that the “oh god oh fuck I don’t know” section of your reads is normally more likely to actually flip scum than your actively scumreading section

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Yeah, that’s quite helpful

What makes you more confident on your reads on jjh/umlaut compared to like MT/haven?

Yeah I’m not like putting all my faith in it, but I do just think I’m leaning towards the slots that give you heebies and difficulty reading being +scum

If this ends up being very wrong I’ll bear it in mind for the future

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That’s an odd thing to say

Also Norway would you say you try more as town or scum?

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Why do you keep calling my posts "odd"

it's disconcerting.

Can't you say something more meaningful?

Because I’m not like certain their scum anymore but some of the stuff you’re saying is just weird shade that seems unnecessary but I also don’t know why scum!yiu would say it like that

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1030 is kind of a scumpost regardless of Porkens' alignment but H3 has lots of town equity to burn off

Why?

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MT you are gonna break my heart if you’re scum, I just want you to know that

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What do you think of kanna?

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Why am I so easy to fuckin pocket I stg

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Why?

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It was funny and had effort put into it dood.

Okay but why is that alignment indicative?

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can we get a bell poke pls?

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Are you actually scumreading datisi, Isis?

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MT, I think you may have missed it but I’d really like to hear your thoughts on kanna

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Is morning a bat, I always thought she was a cute tiny dog

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Datisi is in the scummy half of players in this game yes

Do you have preferences beyond halves?

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So icon is dead

That means we’re in a normal 13p game in which scum need to misguillo 4 times to win meaning without vig shenanigans town has 3 misguillos to burn

How many slots do I want dead

Like 3 and then there’s like 4-5 reserve slots if I’m wrong which means this isn’t locked in yet

Okay that’s fine

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I think Datisi is less likely to be scum than like, the hydra. I don't have an awful lot of preferences beyond halves, I think this game is hard.

Did you explain that or is it just general hydra hatred

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MT, I think you may have missed it but I’d really like to hear your thoughts on kanna

why me?

~keiji

Reasons

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It took me a minute to parse that comment but I think I understand what you’re saying

I don’t want to fan anything but can you just give a yes/no on if you and ali have any oog issues that I’m not aware of?

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No, it was that and also the “ali hates me” comment earlier which I thought was sarcastic but wanted to check

Okay, that’s fine then, I just wanted to make sure there wasn’t anything biasing the read

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VOTE: porkens

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I've been pushing Menalque for like the last 24 hours of this phase

I would disagree with this. You’ve been voting me, you haven’t been pushing me. I’m also quite unlikely to happen today and you should probably be thinking about where you’re willing to compromise

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I think that probably all the scum is in (porkens, norwee, bell) or all the scum is in (umlaut, maxwell, jjh/tipsy)

Outside chance of isis in the second grouping

I highly doubt that datisi or MT ever flip scum this game. I think it’s unlikely that haven ever flips scum. I don’t really know what I think of keiji but I’m willing to sheep MT

MT
dats
Haven

Keiji
Isis

Porkens
Norwee
Bell
Jjh

Tipsy
Maxwell
Umlaut

I’d actually prefer to eliminate in the second grouping first as I think they’re the slots who I scumread more at this point. I don’t mind clearing through people like porkens who are more likely town but unlikely to contribute much if anything during the game and who may be disruptive. Also, I’m not a god of reads and the first group may be correct in which case just working through them seems fine, followed by looking at the second group

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I just don’t particularly think porkens will flip scum at this point

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Inb4 datisi calls me scum for saying this

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If anything I’d say I’ve been pocketing datisi rather than vice versa

Maybe we’re pocketing each other

I don’t understand what you think she’s done that indicates scum!her at all really

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You can pocket people as town

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Does he have town games like this? I wasn't aware tbh

I think his ~don’t care~ attitude is mildly townie for him. Or at least I can see him doing it as town

~keiji

Would anyone be interested in an umlaut wagon?

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Umlaut and Tipsy aren't scum together

Why’s this?

Do you strongly prefer norwee > umlaut and if so why?

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I actually think his iso is very empty but making more of a conscious effort to project town than slots like norwee or porkens. I don’t think he’s really solving in it throughout, and his tales have been very safe things to say — look at where he talks about his shot or his TR on haven. I don’t think he wants to rock the boat

I also just sort of generally think the game doesn’t feel solved, and my current set of scumreads are the people who I think just sort of faded away very quickly while having done nothing of substance vs the shit posters and obviously bad looking players (porkens and norwee mostly)

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VOTE: umlaut

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Do you think that both Pork and Norwee could be town? If we pivot to an exile on Umlaut and he flips town, both Norwe and Pork are gonna be around the next day and that could be a bummer.

Yes, I do

I don’t think it like /very strongly/ at all but unless porkens is actively playing to lose I don’t think he comes in with the takes he has

Norwee is probably a better bet for actual scum but again, he plays like this as town so honestly who knows. I think I’d rather try to vig there

If I was actively scumreading either of them, I would feel differently. But rn I think they’re the main focus for being ~*different*~ only I’m not convinced that’s actually scum indicative vs just indicative that they don’t care a lot about playing the game or taking it seriously. I don’t strongly object to eliminating them to reduce the noise and allow for a greater focus on what I think are the actual scum slots later on, but I don’t think either of them is in the “most likely to actually flip scum” category

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Err, let me see, hang on

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There’s this

viewtopic.php?p=11443272&user_select%5B ... #p11443272

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The first 50 or so posts of this ISO too

viewtopic.php?p=11955351&user_select%5B ... #p11955351

I’ll grant it’s less than I thought but I think he’s trending more towards playing this way as town rather than away for it so this day is more null for him atm than it probably used to be

[Menalque]

I think that probably all the scum is in (porkens, norwee, bell) or all the scum is in (umlaut, maxwell, jjh/tipsy)

Outside chance of isis in the second grouping

how did you get exactly these groups actually?

I just don’t particularly think porkens will flip scum at this point

why did you vote him half an hour earlier?

Inb4 datisi calls me scum for saying this

:/

I think this is already somewhat explained in my ISO but okay — first group is like the obviously scummy players. Porkens just not playing, coming in late with some very bad takes that just aren’t really related to what’s happened in the game— see: him arguing that I’ve been trying to leash our shots to be on certain people when my response to that being suggested was “lol no I’m shooting wherever I want”. Norwee just... isn’t doing a lot of solving and is mostly memeing + stuff like sheeping onto me from jjh when jjh voted me because of a misunderstanding. Bell is mostly there from the very early game that I still think was like obviously scummy looking but granted I may need to reread there. Tipsy could also maybe go into group 1 but like I think they could really be scum.

Umlaut is explained in my ISO I cbf to do it again. Maxwell — someone said they forgot he was in the game and I had that exact same experience. He’s just kind of been sitting in the townreads but actually I’m not sure there’s much basis for that beyond him having the same reads as morning and me. He’s one of those slots who’s sort of very null but I can see this being an attempt to play like town without being town. Jjh is a similar sort of thing — okay start, but has faded away and not really been scumhunting. I don’t hate maxwell’s case there tbh, but there’s two mitigating factors: (1) he said he would be limited somewhat in activity in the pre-game and (2) idk if his push on me would come if he was scum or not. Like that misunderstanding could have led to an opportunistic push on me but I’m not sure if it did do that necessarily.

I voted porkens because, as mentioned, I don’t mind getting read of the null slots first. I don’t think it’s an awful way to play, porkens could flip scum if I’m wrong. But I just, on balance, think scum are generally not trying to lose and porkens really isn’t playing in a way that looks like he wants to or cares about surviving. There is always the possibility that someone is counting on a townie to defend them for playing like this and is scum, but just, that doesn’t seem that probable.

I knew that this would worry you because I do this as scum too (oppose a miselim last minute to be on the right side of it) but I think you should bear in mind that I am actually advocating for doing my desired guillotine instead and compromising on porkens was something that made more sense when I wasn’t sure I’d be able to get enough support to flip umlaut before deadline due to bltiz. Once isis indicated she was willing to vote there I figured umlaut might be viable if I voted there too and started wagon building. But I didn’t want to lead off the vote when it was important to get a guillotine today and I was fine with compromising on porkens

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i understand why those people are null/scummy, i was under the impression you were saying: "the team is exactly pork/norwee/bell or umlaut/max/(jjh/tipsy)", and i'm very interested in how/why you're getting to full teams, and *exactly* those full teams (bc it looks like there's some 9000+IQ 5D chess partnerhunting going on there behind the scenes)

i hear what you mean about porkens, but my issue is that, usually with players that are unreadable/refusing to participate, if they're town, there's scum "circling" them in a sense and trying to make them viable for execution. and i'm kinda just... not seeing that here? (yes i know i'm saying this myself but) which lowkey worries me?

(also hint, if we don't attain majority by deadline, plurality is in effect, so dw about leading the vote away or whatever)

VOTE: umlaut

Ehhh, i see how you took that from what i said and I probably shouldn’t have said “all the scum is in X or all the scum is in Y” because that’s not precise to what I wanted. More like, I think the scum is clustered around group A or the scum is clustered around group B. As in, either the scummy slots are actually scum, or the scummy slots are town and the nullish slots have most of the scum in them

I don’t really feel strongly enough to try to call a full solve D1 in a 14p (although I’ll absolutely take it if either of those pools are totally right!) and there could be bleed through from one to the other. For instance, I’m not sure max/jjh make sense as partners given recent posting

I didn’t realise it was plurality, but in that’s also relevant to your second point — I wonder if scum aren’t as concerned about needing to add weight to porkens (if he is a miselim) because he’d go through without needing their support if he reaches a critical mass of town wanting to eliminate him, and that could account for the lack of vultures

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Datisi, do you think I’m out of my scumrange?

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I didn’t realise it was plurality, but in that’s also relevant to your second point — I wonder if scum aren’t as concerned about needing to add weight to porkens (if he is a miselim) because he’d go through without needing their support if he reaches a critical mass of town wanting to eliminate him, and that could account for the lack of vultures

fair and well, except i don't think anyone was pushing in his direction (other than isis with a naked vote that was reeking of "placeholder" with no attempts to push there) until i brought up the subject (and it seems like it's being actively pushed *away* from there now!)

like, "if he reaches a critical mass", except absolutely nobody was adding mass there? (unless you argument is that i am, but i mean before that...) i dunno. doesn't pacify me.

Datisi, do you think I’m out of my scumrange?

i don't think i do. should i be thinking that?

pedit: while that's perfectly possible, there's another issue with that. let's say porkens *is* a low hanging fruit. why is mafia not taking it? << insert another panicked rant about deepwolves here >>

Well like, there seemed to be a fair number of people that I think are town happy to vote there: me, you, MT, isis, and I think haven said she was okay with it even if she was voting me at the time

My question about whether you think I’m out of my scumrange is not related to whether you think I should be (I don’t) it’s more a slight unease that’s maybe being compounded by isis’ suggestions that you’re pocketing me but — why are you not more paranoid of me then? I don’t feel like you’ve been really very paranoid of me at all this game and certainly for like several games you were super paranoid of me when you were town regardless of my alignment

[Menalque]

Also possible scum just want to keep Porkens around if he's town because he'd be disruptive and more likely to harm town than anything else

I mean, if I were trying to save porkens as scum it would be more because he’s unlikely to disrupt my control of the gamestate and because he’d be a good misguillo in gylo

I don’t really see how he’s likely to harm town more than anything else vía being disruptive?

[Menalque]

Hi, I'm town

Going to go make some breakfast and then try to read this. Kind of sus of Menque pushing this as he knows my town and scum games and should not read my low activity as scum-indicative for me.

It’s not purely your low activity, and if you read the argument I made for it being you you’ll see that. It’s more that what you’ve done while being here is... deeply questionable and I don’t think representative of town!you

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and i don't like mena still

Why

This is still honestly odd to me

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it doesn't really make sense on its face and definitely doesn't make sense with her stated progression on tipsy

Hmm? Why’s this?

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cause i just don't trust you. like at all. i don't know what it is

Have you considered that if you have no basis for feeling that way you may not actually have a reason for not trusting me?

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Wait, that’s the wrong way round

Like if you have no reason for actually mistrusting me have you considered that the mistrust may not have a basis in, well, anything

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I don’t think the shot from Isis makes a lot of sense as scum unless she’s scum with bell tbh

It makes notably less sense if she’s scum with tipsy

But overall I don’t see why scum!isis shoots icon there > me/MT/datisi

I also don’t really get why town!isis shoots there unless her actual reason is true

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Wait, that’s the wrong way round

Like if you have no reason for actually mistrusting me have you considered that the mistrust may not have a basis in, well, anything

yes

Okay, so then why do you still not trust me? Or if you can accept that it’s just an emotional response that you’re having to something in the way I post can you try to set that aside and work with me until you think I’ve actually done things that are a solid basis for mistrusting me?

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Triple has continuously tempted me to not townread her anymore.

I still think pretty strongly that triple’s approach to this game is from a town mindset even if her tunnel on me is a tiny bit frustrating

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People universally townreading me is really weird for my town game. Usually only stuff like this happens when i'm scum. Just different playerbase i guess, or maybe i'm genuinely doing something different from the past that I'm not immediately recognizing. Will have to figure it out in post-game I think

I thought this was a very odd post for scum!triple to make out of the blue when she wasn’t really under any suspicion and didn’t need to talk about it

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Whereas I think the mildly worrying haven posts are definitely plausible from town!haven. So on the balance of those two things I really doubt scum!haven is a thing. I also don’t really think scum!haven is just willing to give up her scumread on me from the talk we had, because I think scum!her is strong enough (in a world where all her posting so far is from scum) to want to fake progression there that’s beyond just “let go of scumresd because asked to/lack of reasons” and that lack of guile in her approach to me is also towny

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I just don't get some reads at all I suppose

Same, but I think different homesite and different style of play there due to everything being blitzes explains that pretty well

She’s just not coming in with the same mental toolkit in mind for finding scum and I think that’s leading her astray. Or alternatively, aside from me, she is picking on scum and they’re in the blind spot for us because we’re approaching the game with a condensing mindset instead of an expansive one (in terms of the way to scumhunt vs normal style)

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Which one? The last one?

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I mean if it helps I just fell asleep right after I wrote that for a nos
on the sofa
So

Yeah

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i don't get how you can come to the conclusion haven is picking on scum that's in the blind spot for the rest of us when her strongest scumread is norwee who is currently also the leading wagon

but maybe i'm being nitpicky over unimportant shit

Huh okay, that’s a good point

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"(1)making more of a conscious effort to project town" -- where am I doing this?
(2)"his tales have been very safe things to say" -- maybe? I'm not going to make up some extra-spicy takes just to demonstrate Effort if I don't actually have those reads, sorry.

I'm not going to claim I've made any MEGA TOWNTELLS here but this case really just comes down to I haven't done anything tryhard yet, if people want to execute me for that then fine (3) but given that you know I have no problem tryharding as scum this just looks like you think I'm an easy push.

(1) I think it’s like the general vibe I get from your ISO? As in, you don’t seem to have a “give a fuck” attitude but you also don’t seem invested in the game, so I feel like it matters to you how you’re perceived but you’re not being like pro-actively solvey

(2) Okay, I guess, I just feel like town!you generally has some more takes than what you’ve given so far and this reminds me more of scum!you in that newbie which brings me to

(3) i know you can effort as scum, but I also felt like in that game you generally didn’t until you needed to — like it was reactive tryharidng in response to the gamestate rather than tryharding as like unprompted. I also just don’t think you’re this passive as town

(4) why would I need to push you as an easy push? Unless you want to argue that I’m scumpartners with either of porkens/norwee and I’m trying to keep the heat off them

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But in the case of (4) I think it’s odd to pass up the cred I would have got from finishing the bus and switching to TRing them

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Hi, the wagons are looking like umlaut or norwee, so you should probably decide who you’d prefer to flip between the two

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I actually totally missed it until now but now I see it and I hate it

Where’s the paranoia coming from, my positioning on the wagons?

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I actually totally missed it until now but now I see it and I hate it

Where’s the paranoia coming from, my positioning on the wagons?

1327 feels like kinda you're explaining to him why he's scum in a way that you're trying to get on his good side and explain yourself???

which as i'm typing it out kinda smells like bullshit but

tell me why it's bullshit

Because I’m trying to engage with him in good faith in the event that I’m wrong about him being scum?

Sometimes I’m very dismissive, that’s true. Sometimes it’s because I’m super sold on the person being scum, sometimes I’m exaggerating a little to get people to go along with me etc, but I don’t think me treating umlaut in good faith as I’m engaging with him is something that should be worrying about me

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(1) I think it’s like the general vibe I get from your ISO? As in, you don’t seem to have a “give a fuck” attitude but you also don’t seem invested in the game, so I feel like it matters to you how you’re perceived but you’re not being like pro-actively solvey

I just don't see how you think I care how I'm perceived based on anything I've written. Point to it?

(2) Okay, I guess, I just feel like town!you generally has some more takes than what you’ve given so far and this reminds me more of scum!you in that newbie which brings me to

(3) i know you can effort as scum, but I also felt like in that game you generally didn’t until you needed to — like it was reactive tryharidng in response to the gamestate rather than tryharding as like unprompted. I also just don’t think you’re this passive as town

I had actual serious "reads" within hours of my replacing in to the game you're thinking of. I don't find making up reads very hard at all, my usual scum MO is to just build up large amounts of towncred by "doing stuff," and I can invite you to read pretty much any of my scum games to confirm that. That said, you also haven't seen me in games full of hyperposters which is where I'm at my worst because I see ten new pages and just go "ugggggggghhhhhhh" and put off reading them and don't want to try and post without having read them. (Probably that means I shouldn't have joined a short-deadline game at all but here I am and I'm not replacing out so I'm going to just hope I do better tomorrow)

(4) why would I need to push you as an easy push? Unless you want to argue that I’m scumpartners with either of porkens/norwee and I’m trying to keep the heat off them

I don't know man, why does scum ever push anyone in particular? Is there someone else you think you'd be advocating to execute if you were scum?

It’s like a general impression of your play so far today, I can probably pull posts tomorrow of where I think it is that you’re presenting in such a way that seems like it matters how you’re perceived.

***

Okay, yeah, that’s true that I haven’t seen you in game like this but I really didn’t find you convincingly town in that newbie and I don’t find you that way here other. Whereas I did in smugglers and you were town there. I don’t find your argument here very convincing or in line with what I have seen of your scumgame previously, but I suppose in fairness I ought to meta you further.

***

I mean, tbf you probably are on the list of people I’d consider pushing as scum in order to save like porkens/norwee for a later day misguillo. But generally yeah, I think there’s like a plan to who scum are pushing (although it does depend) and I don’t think that’s present in my play. I actually think suggesting there isn’t a reason for scum pushes on particular people to be quite scummy because I think that’s a really common feature of most scumplay and idk why you’re discounting it or suggesting it’s not standard?

[Menalque]

yes i get that it just doesn't ~*~feel~*~ good faith fore some reason
idk maybe i'm just drunk and tired

does me bringing up such bullshit point worry you

Idk, okay? Why not?

And not really and I don’t know why

[Menalque]

how can it not worry you
that is this scumtisi masterminding the final misexecute in gylo
when isis was planting seeds of doubt earlier

Who would be the final misguillo in gylo? Me?

If that’s the suggestion idk, it just doesn’t feel like you’re setting me up? Also that (1) I don’t think I’ve ever actually been the game losing misguillo as town and so I’m not like, super worried about that. I think I’m generally quite a hard target for scum to go after and when I have been misguillo’d it’s almost always been wrong town making the push, for good reasons or bad ones

Plus (2) I think I’m just less paranoid now in general since last game. Like I think I struggle with it when people expect me to have an amazing read rate on someone and I get really stressed about being correct. Having been wrong now (and quite spectacularly so) means I no longer have the pressure of ~being so great at reading datisi~ so I’m back to just trying to read you... which, low-key, may actually lead to my reads on you being >average again but we’ll see after this game I guess

[Menalque]

Okay, yeah, that’s true that I haven’t seen you in game like this but I really didn’t find you convincingly town in that newbie and I don’t find you that way here other. Whereas I did in smugglers and you were town there.

This is kind of why I find it suspect for you to be scumreading me here; you were able to pick me out as town in Smugglers' and the fact that you're doing the opposite here and starting a wagon on town!me goes against what I expect of you. I realize burden-of-proficiency isn't a great way to form a read but it pings me regardless.

I think BoP is actually generally a very fair way to read me and if you are town then suspecting me for being wrong on you here is reasonable. I’m still not swayed by what I’ve seen from you so far, but if you don’t flip today then we can talk about it tomorrow and we’ll see where my read goes from there

[Menalque]

i said DEAD

I really love a good fake hammer but it kinda doesn’t work when the VC is literally at the top of the page you try it on

[Menalque]

may actually lead to my reads on you being >average again

*cough* what do you mean """again""" *cough*

I used to be able to read you, must we go into this again

[Menalque]

And again, I find this weird for you to contest because I’m pretty sure I can literally pull quotes where you talk about how I’m able to read you from around the time period I’m talking about

[Menalque]

For like 3-4 games consecutively after 1949 possibly including a newbie I didn’t play in but did spectate and also had you as incredibly hard town

I find it so weird that you make such an issue of this

I’m not claiming a speciality in reading you /now/

[Menalque]

Why not?

[Menalque]

About spectating

[Menalque]

And like, not just autumnal

I think I had you as town in autumnal, scum in calendar, town in a newbie and then I wanna say town somewhere else too but I’m not sure where it was now

And then I think I rolled scum against you twice and didn’t actually have to read you

And then it became a thing of “oh mena can read datisi” both from others and somewhat from myself and I started getting super like, idk, anxious about being correct on you and super worried about being wrong and it led to the series of games where I was very non-commital or wrongly scumread you at one point or another

But like I say, I’m pretty sure I can find you saying that you expect me to be able to read you really well in a game and idk why this has now become an issue for you to admit, especially as it’s a closed set of games that I’m referring to and not a claim I’m making on your current abilities or scumgame

[Menalque]

you don't play
you don't put game on the line for the read
you don't feel the pressure of getting it right lest i make fun of you for it forever
it don't count

I just kind of disagree with this even though you have a point

Spectating is easier in some ways harder in others. Yes, there is less pressure. Flip side, you can’t do anything to try to improve your reads in people, you’re entirely passive in your judgements

And I did hard, hard commit on you being town there, so if I had been wrong it would still have been embarrassing actually

[Menalque]

I wanna say town somewhere else too but I’m not sure where it was now

you read me as town in just don't die

I AM NOT CLAIMING TO HAVE A PERFECT READ RATE ON YOU NOW/ANYMORE

I AM TALKING ABOUT A PARTICULAR SUBSET OF GAMES UP TO THAT POINT BUT AFTER WE FIRST PLAYED TOGETHER

[Menalque]

Hell, I could never claim a perfect read rate on you after losing our very first game where I had you as hard town

I just don’t know when you got this massive chip on your shoulder about admitting that I did have good reads on you for several games in a row??

[Menalque]

This conversation always just kind of upsets me because it feels like you’re attacking me when I know you’ve admitted it in the past and I don’t know why your opinion there has changed? And also just doesn’t really fit with what you’ve otherwise said to me at times? So I’m going to take a time out now, and I really wish this would stop coming up in practically every game, especially when I’m not even claiming any sort of privileged ability to read you *in our current games*

[Menalque]

Menalque help me with more important things like freeing Umlaut of this blitz

I mean I am voting there, idk what else you’re looking for

[Menalque]

VOTE: porkens

[Menalque]

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa

[Menalque]

Okay, cool umlaut

It’s like (porkens, Isis) or one in there and a bus

[Menalque]

I hadn’t!

[Menalque]

Although I do agree that it’s a weird kill

[Menalque]

I mean yeah, I agree with datisi and max basically

Me being wrong on which group the scum was in is like ~eh~

It’s not great but I don’t think it’s awful. I still think my townreads are good for now, apart from Isis. I don’t actually know if isis is scum but she was trying hard to defend there and I think I want to guillo her regardless of whether porkens flips scum or not. We’ll see if that changes over the course of today. It does seem odd that the CW would be all town and scum would just not do ?? anything ???

I still thought bell was a viable partner for norwee but fuck my reads this game I guess. Although I still don’t think my townreads are wrong?

I think I’m pretty much in the same spot as datisi, only idk if I see maxwell as much as the others. Dats?

[Menalque]

Oh, also, datisi— beeboy locked before I could post but I’m sorry if I totally misread the tone in that exchange before end of day. Like I said though, it might be something to discuss postgame

[Menalque]

Quick search of MT on norwee looks kind of bad for MT.

Why?

[Menalque]

Yo umlaut why do you think you weren’t killed?

[Menalque]

{Datisi, Mena, Triple, Keiji}
{Isis, maxwell, Bell}
-
{Tipsy}
{jjh927, Umlaut}
{Norwe, Pork}


If Pork is scum, norwe and maxwell are town.

If Norwe is scum, Pork, jjh and maxwell are town

Umlaut and Tipsy aren't scum together

So if Norwe is flipping red, my guess would be Norwe + Umlaut||Tipsy + Isis||Bell

And if Pork is flipping red, my guess would be Pork + Umlaut||Tipsy + jjh||Isis||Bell

And overall my best guess is probably Norwe/Umlaut/Bell actually. Weird cause I kind of like Bell

probably. But I'm sure it's totally wrong and half the scumteam are active posters that have snuck into the town bloc. That'll be fun to deal with!

VOTE: Norwe

@maxwell yeah only right after this she voted here and only came off it when I started arguing that umlaut was scum?

[Menalque]

I sort of think keiji is cleared from the NK

[Menalque]

morning has been pinging me back and forth all game, but i want to believe effort/engagement/confidence still spills her town...
i'm not sure why "pork needs to go"

What were the things that pinged you?

And I think killing pork first is solid because in his early game he TRs norwee for ??? reasons and keeps at it throughout

[Menalque]

I sort of think keiji is cleared from the NK

why is this?

although, i actually thought we were going to die, considering we were one of higher townread players on the scum wagon

~keiji

I don’t think ali would let you make that kill because it just seems like a terrible kill for scum to make given the rest of the PL

[Menalque]

Think I agree on MT but I'm gonna want to think more

Agree with who/in what sense?

[Menalque]

in the sense that MT is probably scum

I’ll listen to what you have to say but idk, I don’t really see it as of now

[Menalque]

Idk if I’m the best judge on MT tho because I think I’m any scenario where she is scum she has very consciously pocketed me

But that doesn’t change my view that she just isn’t scum

[Menalque]

Yo umlaut why do you think you weren’t killed?

Why should I have been killed? Just because Norwegian flipped red? I seem to still be in people's scumpools today regardless of that, so it really doesn't matter.

I just thought you or jjh were the really obvious kills. I’d probably have killed jjh, but I could definitely see the case for killing you as the CW to scum?

[Menalque]

Idk why umlaut wagon didn’t gain traction even from Norway when I know it was town originated?

[Menalque]

Do you agree that if ali!hydra was scum you’d be dead here?

[Menalque]

lol @isis

[Menalque]

I think I might have been if I had just stuck on norwee and not diverted over

I always feel slightly like I’ve failed when I don’t eat the NK

[Menalque]

I’m going to hold off on my shot and I will shoot isis if she shoots datisi

[Menalque]

Man if I felt like I failed whenever I don't eat the NK I'd be miserable 24/7 I haven't been the NK since September or something

Yeah, tell me about it, this is why I’m depressed

[Menalque]

I actually wonder if bell dying should be clearing for isis too maybe

[Menalque]

Maybe I should be reconsidering haven actually

I just don’t know who in this PL would make that NK

[Menalque]

Is nahdia good at scum?

[Menalque]

Okay, cool umlaut

It’s like (porkens, Isis) or one in there and a bus

Why isn't it datisi?

Because I TR datisi

[Menalque]

Not killing jjh seems like an almost objectively wrong play from ali, Isis, me (self meta obv)

Seems like a wrong play from datisi, maxwell, umlaut, MT too?

Porkens could make that kill I think, unless he has a lot of past experience with jjh. So could haven.

[Menalque]

Am I missing a person there

[Menalque]

Jjh
Keiji
Isis
Mena
Dats
Max
Umlaut
MT
porkens
Haven

[Menalque]

Should there not be one more player there

[Menalque]

Oh right, tipsy

Yeah maybe tipsy could make that kill but they’re more towards the back end of the second group than in the third group

[Menalque]

Idk if kanna might make that shot but I feel like she’d speak to ali before doing it and I think e’d say no and tell her to shoot jjh

Only scenario I think keiji makes that shot is if ali really just is not playing at all, but I think that’s more likely to happen if eir town

[Menalque]

I’d like to hear from MT at least

[Menalque]

I don’t think jjh is scum

I don’t think some players would fail to kill jjh > bell here if they were scum

[Menalque]

still not following. why is it apparently obvious jjh is objectively right kill?

because good player who got scum killed or smt

Basically this

If a town player nails one of my team, gets them flipped D1, hasn’t yet identified anyone else and I know that they’re very strong then I kill them N1 I don’t give them a chance to get further into the game

[Menalque]

I mean I N1’d jjh here over protests from my team in this PL where doing so meant that NSG and RC were able to keep giving their reads by proxy

viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81719

Not saying that’s clearing for me here (bc again, self mate) but it should be a pretty strong point against scum!me I’d say

[Menalque]

Did you keep suspecting Bell the same all the way thru D1, mena? (until the flip)

I think I stopped advocating for him but I never actually took them out of my lower end reads

They were in my (norwee, porkens, bell) solving pool

[Menalque]

I think pork is literally the perfect use of a vig shot

[Menalque]

Datisi I’m probably misremembering here but didn’t QQ like slip Captain really hard or something?

[Menalque]

No, i don’t think it does, I just meant that maybe it’s a reason to be slightly cautious of your read on porkens in a relational sense to that specifically because your thought he was likely an officer it may have helped you TR him despite his behaviour
And if you hadn’t had that you may have incorrectly scumresd him for behaviour similar to porkens?

Idk I’m pretty tired so maybe I’m talking shit, it was like a passing thought when I saw you mention CoC and QQ

i still think porkens is likely to be scum and want him flipped

[Menalque]

Waiting to see if your shot goes through

[Menalque]

Dope

[Menalque]

Sad I didn’t get the satisfaction of shooting tipsy tho

[Menalque]

HURT: tipsy

Beeboy, can you just run it anyway for the sake of knowing? Ty

[Menalque]

Gg all, I should have stuck with the initial scumread pool instead of big braining it

Most pleasant surprise here was playing with MT who I haven’t played with before but now want to play with again multiple times!

[Menalque]

Seriously considering trying out a regular phased game here, lol. We'll see what happens

Yessssss, the more important win condition has been achieved

[Menalque]

We really did Umlaut dirty D1 and D2

Yeah, but he

did

try to insta-shoot me on D2 so I think we’re even

[Menalque]

Just curious if you guys thought the game was fine in it's current state.
I liked keeping it more basic since it's less information to process, but maybe I could have given scum additional options like knowing if their shot would hit SoD it would make them be able to bus easily. It would also make doing things like shooting scum less clearing without hurting the fun behind the setup.

If you have the shots pre-determined, it could be interesting to allow scum to ‘peek’ once per day phase at what the next shot will be

Idk if that would skew really hard though

The idea of a slim, slim backfire could work too, but I still think everyone would shoot so I kind of think that would also swing the game towards scum

[Menalque]

Ooh, Menalque, what class do you want

Rocketeer sounds like fun!

[Menalque]

backfire isn't fun keep it as is

this is the best way to play mountainous tbh

What do you think of my ‘peek’ idea?

[Menalque]

I genuinely think this may be the first time my NKA has been actually legit good

[Menalque]

Fwiw, the fact that a whole bunch of specific players would NK me N1 here is a separate reason in itself that I should have been NKed

Yeah, I would have been way more paranoid of Isis if you’d been killed I think

[Menalque]

This setup doesn't need a change beyond slight QoL I think.

I’d totally play it again as is tbf

[Menalque]

also menalque going through my post history to guisetest my alt is gonna go down as one of the funniest things to ever happen to me in a mafia game. like, that actually had me rolling.

I’m glad this was amusing

I was really thinking you might be someone else and so I felt like I needed a way to confirm it!

[Menalque]

shooting scum as scum is bad but i don't feel like i need to say that?
I can't think of a singular point in the game where you would want to do that.
You def don't do it D1 and there's no point doing it late game.
Mid game like maybe but I still don't see the point.

I’d totally do this on D1 if I rolled scum

[Menalque]

shooting scum as scum is bad but i don't feel like i need to say that?
I can't think of a singular point in the game where you would want to do that.
You def don't do it D1 and there's no point doing it late game.
Mid game like maybe but I still don't see the point.

I’d totally do this on D1 if I rolled scum

the cred isn't enough to coast the game off of

Yeah but it would help especially in a gylo situation

[Menalque]

shooting scum as scum is bad but i don't feel like i need to say that?
I can't think of a singular point in the game where you would want to do that.
You def don't do it D1 and there's no point doing it late game.
Mid game like maybe but I still don't see the point.

I’d totally do this on D1 if I rolled scum

the cred isn't enough to coast the game off of

Yeah but it would help especially in a gylo situation

by F5 or F3 it won't matter anymore

Eh, agree to disagree? I think it would depend a lot on who I brought with me

[Menalque]

I did not enjoy this game.

Sorry to hear that, norwee

[Menalque]

The mafia roll was shit tbh. All the super good town players started townblocking early like some kind of unholy amoeba, like wtf was i supposed to do.
We lost from the start.

The description of “like some kind of unholy amoeba” made me laugh, I have to say

Also I’m kind of flattered if norwee is considering me a super good town player, which is probably inaccurate but I’ll absolutely take it

[Menalque]

Thank you, both, that’s nice of you to say — this was certainly one of my better games

Bell, i wouldn’t worry about your push — I know I was still misreading you, but you got a pretty solid number of people to TR you from it, and that probably would have been enough had you not been NK’d to avoid being pressured by scum. Also, great job on shooting at scum even if it didn’t go through

[Menalque]

I see that haven has signed up for this game (viewtopic.php?f=115&t=80620) in the open queue

I’m currently in too many games to sign up myself, but I imagine that she’d be happy to have a couple of familiar faces from here in that game too if anyone is looking for something. There’s 4 slots left and the PL as it stands looks good (it’s even got a wild dannflor in it!)