Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[Well Done]

Oh look. A game is happening.

We are Hirsute (werewolf miller)

[Well Done]

Oh look. A game is happening.

We are Hirsute (werewolf miller)

VOTE: well done

mafia goon spotted

Given the way the last game played out, I think that I would be even more scared to fake claim a miller role in this game then your average game, and I am already too big of a chicken to fake claim a miller role lol

[Well Done]

I have achieved a town read on STD

[Well Done]

i don't like how quickly you put Klick at E-10

that's too close to getting speed limmed for me

With the scum split up into two factions, they are unable to coordinate, and therefore speedlims are objectively better than they are in a more standard game setup because they are more likely to hit scum and less likely to be derailed. I think, based on that, that all of our eliminations should be speedlims.

Speedlims are never a good thing but you are trying to raise your profile so you I am guessing you are town.

It was a joke. I'm not sure what "raising your profile" means, exactly, but if I'm interpreting it correctly it doesn't sound like something you should be townreading me for. Explain this, please.

I read that as him saying "you are drawing undue attention to yourself, so I am guessing you are town"

[Well Done]

it appears that I read that incorrectly the first time then lol

[Well Done]

VOTE: sword of ducks

feels like a decent bet

in my last game I rolled a serial killer, I'm probably still in that mindset

This feels like a scum post.

[Well Done]

VOTE: catboi

He seems defensive. My previous vote was a good vote as well.

This phrasing in the second sentence feels over-explain-y and self-aware. And hopping on to what looks like mostly a meme wagon, but doing so with serious reasons?

VOTE: MonkeyMan

I had the exact opposite reaction to that post lmao.

In a, scum who just wants to help an elim go through wouldn't care, but I could see these exact words resulting in a townie debating between their current vote and their new one, kinda way

[Well Done]

VOTE: bnuuy

OMGUS's are scummy.

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

This seems like appeal to emotion and OMGUS.

In these posts, it doesn't feel like you are actually considering whether these things make the person in question scum. You're just going down a checklist of tells to call out to look like you're hunting.

Why would scum need to do that in a multiball game?

[Well Done]

Hey catboi, why did you not respond at all to my response to responding to my werewolf miller claim?

I don't know what I expected you to say, but was surprised that it was actually nothing at all.

[Well Done]

I am in hood with Flavor and indeed he asking for me.

lmao

[Well Done]

VOTE: sword of ducks

feels like a decent bet

in my last game I rolled a serial killer, I'm probably still in that mindset

This feels like a scum post.

why

Immediately assuming that they had been posting scummily vs knowing that they are town, making town posts.

No hint of worry that scum!catboi is actually trying to divert to them.

[Well Done]

Actually, if there's a Mafia Miller, they should claim.

Multiball games generally have semi symmetrical setups, not exact, of course, and if there's a Werewolf Miller claim, then there should be a Miller. If there isn't, I say we power tunnel Well Done.

getting it on the new page so it doesnt get lost at the bottom.

I have been on the look out for the mafia miller claim as well, but wasn't going to say anything until everyone had checked in. Will share thoughts on the implication of no miller claim if no one has claimed it by the time everyone has checked in

[Well Done]

nvm, seems that the implications are being discussed already anyways.

[Well Done]

My power tunnel on Well Done if no Miller claim is gone now, btw.

Would be down to do a Not Miller/Miller type thing in the case there is a Scum Miller it forces them to claim it or chance getting rolecop guiltied.

Not Miller, obvi.

I like the quick 180 turn around from Flavor Leaf after catboi's post for town.

[Well Done]

tracer is the malefactor, calling it now

lol if I was malefactor I would've already claimed it and tried to get myself elimmed and spammed the thread full of shitty youtube wrestling videos

why, that's anti win con.

malefactor doesn't have to live to win, eliminating town dayplay oppurtunity buys cover for your scum team

last game malefactor got endgamed and was completely useless

Last game the malefactor was endgamed and completely useless because we identified him as the malefactor day 1, and promptly ignored him for the rest of the game.

[Well Done]

This is probably an all scum hood. Sigh.

I have 3 PT's. None of them are the scum ones, and now that I know the randomization of it all, i'm so paranoid of this game

Given the mechanics of the last game, I am surprised that there are 3.

Also curious if this works out as an IC claim for you?

[Well Done]

Flavor Leaf, do the hood mechanics make you mod proven not Mafia to 1 group of players, and mod proven not werewolf to another group of players?

[Well Done]

Thinking about it while cleaning my kitchen, and I think that I probably should not have asked my prior question. Disregard

lol

[Well Done]

Hey Malcom!

Apparently this game also has a lot of hoods. Try not to slip again

[Well Done]

VOTE: sword of ducks

feels like a decent bet

in my last game I rolled a serial killer, I'm probably still in that mindset

We would like to point out that this post looks like a malefactor soft

Our proposal is to not eliminate them but to also take everything they say with a grain of salt, especially snap mechanical guilties

[Well Done]

I've played with Sword before and he is just kind of Like This

When have you played with Sword before? This appears to be the first game that that account has played.

[Well Done]

Don't like 95, 99, or 107 surrounding catboi

[Well Done]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

is this actually true or is it just something people say so much that they believe it to be true

low lvl scum struggle to keep up with hyperposting

that doesn't answer my question

I do not put any weight to this scum tell personally. I have been accused of it multiple times and I was town in each instance, :shrug:

[Well Done]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

is this actually true or is it just something people say so much that they believe it to be true

low lvl scum struggle to keep up with hyperposting

that doesn't answer my question

okay let me just crunch the numbers in my spreadsheet to see if it's true

That's our schtick

[Well Done]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

is this actually true or is it just something people say so much that they believe it to be true

low lvl scum struggle to keep up with hyperposting

that doesn't answer my question

I do not put any weight to this scum tell personally. I have been accused of it multiple times and I was town in each instance, :shrug:

i mean, like

you remember how NQN1 went, right

I meant commenting on the page count, not the struggling to keep up

[Well Done]

I admit I also find the hyperposting to be a challenge to deal with. I am used to 20+ player games (some 30+!), but most went at a much slower and more methodical pace than what seems to be the trend nowadays. Although really, the one-liner spam is in some ways a lot easier to digest than the dense wallposts, even if it is a difficult style to play around.

We can make a conscious effort to condense our posts if needded.

[Well Done]

i mean, like

you remember how NQN1 went, right

Also, @ catboi, yeah I do remember how NQN1 went

Spoiler:

My first post:

Hello. It is page 8 already

VOTE: T3

And Ydra calling me scum for it

Luke felt a little stilted on entrance as if he was like "hi I don't know what to say oh wow haha eight pages!"

[Well Done]

No one else think it's odd that leaf was advising a possible mafia miller to claim?

I think you misunderstood what he meant by mafia miller.

I read his posts to mean a town miller who invests as miller, not a miller aligned with the mafia.

Advising the potential town-aligned miller on what they should did not raise my eyebrows

[Well Done]

No one else think it's odd that leaf was advising a possible mafia miller to claim?

I think you misunderstood what he meant by mafia miller.

I read his posts to mean a town miller who invests as

miller

mafia, not a miller aligned with the mafia.

Advising the potential town-aligned miller on what they should did not raise my eyebrows

[Well Done]

I thought he meant mafia miller since there was one in the last game

I don't think so. I think that the wording was in reponse to the wording of my own claim

Spoiler:

Oh look. A game is happening.

We are Hirsute (werewolf miller)

Actually, if there's a Mafia Miller, they should claim.

Multiball games generally have semi symmetrical setups, not exact, of course, and if there's a Werewolf Miller claim, then there should be a Miller. If there isn't, I say we power tunnel Well Done.

[Well Done]

Ruleset:
Alignment assignment and role design had a random element; as a result, the setup may break certain common assumptions, such as the idea that a neighborhood cannot be composed entirely of members of the same scumteam. The first game featured a Mafia Miller.

If that's an all scum hood then you're going to need to scum case all 3 separately

Your quote above says the setup has a random element, so saying it's an all scum hood "because it can be" does not hold up

[Well Done]

Well Flavor leaf is not pinging town, and they aren't town reading each other evidently.

This doesn't explain why you think that all 3 are non-town

[Well Done]

Well Flavor leaf is not pinging town, and they aren't town reading each other evidently.

This doesn't explain why you think that all 3 are non-town

all 3 what

254, 335, 338

[Well Done]

Alignment assignment and role design had a random element; as a result, the setup may break certain common assumptions, such as the idea that a neighborhood cannot be composed entirely of members of the same scumteam. The first game featured a Mafia Miller.

didn't see this.

Okay, so neighborhoods can contain all 3 scum members even.

I still think a Miller, if exists for Mafia, should claim.

Yes, but:

275, 336

They showed that the setup has a random element. Do they think that there are 3 scum in the hood because they have 3 individual scumreads, or is it setup speculation?

If it's the former, explain those scumreads. If it's the latter, explain how that makes sense with what you quoted.

[Well Done]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

is this actually true or is it just something people say so much that they believe it to be true

I don't have data or anything if that's what you're asking

Though this made me want to go look at Malcolm's past large games to see if he's complained about the same thing before. There's only been one large so far, but the vibe doesn't feel the same so good enough for an early gutread

Spoiler:

Subject: Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

Lot to catch up on here, will do a readthrough of what I've missed so far.

Their second post:

Spoiler:

Anyway, main reads so far. Wu seems incredibly suspicious so far to me and I'm surprised it took until p11 of the game for Nero to pick up on this. Basically all of their early posts were either jokes or non-comments which allowed them to appear active without getting too involved in the game and actually taking stances either way. If they come back mafia, worth looking at other players early on who had theories but didn't pick up on that.

I didn't necessarily suspect Tenebros on the basis of their early posts but found some of their later defences incredibly weak attempts to divert attention away from them without addressing accusations at-hand.

Yet seems solidly townie so far, if not would be a very bold strategy for mafia playing their first game on the site. Also appears to have a sort of absolute confidence in their reads which can often be townie, mafia maybe more likely to hedge their bets and avoid going too heavily in on someone who could later be confirmed town.

They got right into it compared to what they did in this game which has me raising an eyebrow

[Well Done]

you can have actual thoughts now

Ya but I need to read through the thread and I am just home and going to bed. Hence why I shall do it in the morning.

Actually it just looks like they didn't have time to go over the game so I don't think this says that much.

VOTE: MonkeyMan576

[Well Done]

But I still don't hear you town reading your neighbors or them town reading you. So from a town perspective an all scum neighborhood is on the table.

not from mine

Why would it be 100% off the table?

It doesn't need to be 100% off the table

You need to, at a bare minimum, show that it's plausible and worth considering. Why should we think those players are scum? Just saying it is possible is not enough

[Well Done]

This is probably an all scum hood. Sigh.

You did say they are.

[Well Done]

Apparently reading the rules is not a thing.

wha?

No one on this site likes to read the rules
There’s like 1 person who does so in any given games and that person is tasked with slapping people in the face with the actual setup info any time they get something wrong

What rule or setup information are we getting wrong?

[Well Done]

VLA before 30 April

Health problems

Hope everything is okay, take care enchant

whoops

[Well Done]

Yo, very important to note:

I am a Beloved Princess

I know the rule about randomization elements to roles, but I find it hard to believe that Ceph would have allowed beloved princess to potentially be a scum role after existing in the Bloodstained game and seeing a scum beloved princess in action.

[Well Done]

Oh so randomization elements. Are we gonna have an mafia innocent child? :O

I think that my favorite random combos from the original game were

The Mafia-Aligned Miller - which made the miller aspect mean nothing

The 1-shot bulletproof Mafia -- When bulletproof explicitly did not stop the werewolf kill or the vig kill, ONLY the mafia kill. Making the bulletproof aspect mean nothing.

[Well Done]

hmm

VOTE: CSF

Why?

[Well Done]

Yes, you are talking to Dunn or Luke.

[Well Done]

Post 10: Lukewarm
Post 39: Lukewarm
Post 40: Lukewarm
Post 42: Lukewarm
Post 43: Lukewarm
Post 180: Lukewarm
Post 195: Lukewarm
Post 197: Lukewarm
Post 198: Lukewarm
Post 200: Lukewarm
Post 203: Lukewarm
Post 216: Lukewarm
Post 220: Lukewarm
Post 227: Lukewarm
Post 258: Lukewarm
Post 259: Lukewarm
Post 263: Lukewarm
Post 283: Lukewarm
Post 284: Lukewarm
Post 285: Dunnstral
Post 287: Lukewarm
Post 289: Dunnstral
Post 307: Lukewarm
Post 310: Dunnstral
Post 313: Lukewarm
Post 317: Dunnstral
Post 322: Lukewarm
Post 323: Lukewarm
Post 324: Lukewarm
Post 329: Lukewarm
Post 336: Dunnstral
Post 346: Dunnstral
Post 356: Dunnstral
Post 357: Dunnstral
Post 360: Dunnstral
Post 362: Dunnstral
Post 375: Dunnstral
Post 377: Dunnstral
Post 411: Dunnstral
Post 442: Lukewarm
Post 443: Lukewarm
Post 444: Lukewarm
Post 447: Lukewarm
Post 452: Lukewarm
Post 454: Dunnstral
Post 456: Dunnstral

Hoping this helps you in your efforts to explain your vote on CSF.

[Well Done]

I don't see that at all from this exchange tbh

Spoiler:

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

why

Gut lol

from what?

barely posted, how do you have a gut read

ok maybe i can see it

but answer anyway i wanna hear your answer

From complaining about having to read

My impression of Malcolm is that he doesn't mind doing legwork like reading 10 pages

[Well Done]

From the full sequence of posts 2 above.

We don't agree that post 296 contains an over-justification based on the context where they were being asked about their read and the actual explanation being rather short and concise.

We find it hard to see from your viewpoint here. It seems to be a reach if we're being generous, and strictly untrue if we're not.

Also, we don't like the implication that you have hidden information that you think is best to keep to yourself. I, at the very least, think that you are blustering and your point 3 is merely meant to pad out your post and make it look like you're contemplating things.

We suspect that you are one of the 9 anti-town players in this game.

VOTE: Menalque

[Well Done]

mastina
Butterchurn
Wallflower
NorweiganboyEE
TracerBullet
NashvilleDreams
SaveTheDragons

MalcolmTrucker
tictac
CatScratchFever
bnunny

Klick
Menalque
FlavorLeaf
SwordOfDucks

Not Enough Info:
momo
cassowary
TheKeeper
MegAzumarill
Enchant

What is blue? I would have guessed Null based on structure, but then it is separated from the unsorted at the bottom.

You also appear to be missing us, and the person you are currently voting:catboi

[Well Done]

Is blue null?

[Well Done]

VOTE: bnuuy

OMGUS's are scummy.

VOTE: catboi

He seems defensive. My previous vote was a good vote as well.

Was surprised to see bnuuy in Null given the above, and then I didn't see anything else about them in your iso since.

Anything in particular making you second guess your initial read?

[Well Done]

Mastina showed up and claimed Beloved Princess.

Spoiler:

Yo, very important to note:

I am a Beloved Princess

.

No, seriously; no joke; this is a realclaim. (I can fullclaim the wording use, but I've reason not to.)

Obviously, this needs to be said since eliminating me during the day is a Very Bad Idea. (I'll need to ask a question to the mod about Vigs tho.)

I may or may not be feeling like playing tonight but it'll either be shortly or not until tomorrow-at-earliest.

And we caught a bad guy

Spoiler:

From the full sequence of posts 2 above.

We don't agree that post 296 contains an over-justification based on the context where they were being asked about their read and the actual explanation being rather short and concise.

We find it hard to see from your viewpoint here. It seems to be a reach if we're being generous, and strictly untrue if we're not.

Also, we don't like the implication that you have hidden information that you think is best to keep to yourself. I, at the very least, think that you are blustering and your point 3 is merely meant to pad out your post and make it look like you're contemplating things.

We suspect that you are one of the 9 anti-town players in this game.

VOTE: Menalque

Those are the highlights.

[Well Done]

TODAY IS MY SCUM DAY

I DEMAND CAKE FROM EACH OF YOU

IT WILL BE A COOKING COMPETITION TO SEE WHO CAN MAKE THE BEST CAKE

I WILL BE THE JUDGE

YOU WILL BE FILMED WHILE YOU MAKE YOUR CAKE

TRY TO BE FUNNY ON CAMERA

BONUS POINTS IF YOU ARE TRASHY SOMEHOW

I AM THE LORD OF DRAGONS

THUS IT IS DECREED

Happy Cake Day!

Please PM me (Lukewarm) an address or p.o. box where I can mail both the cake, and a vhs tape of me making it

[Well Done]

.

I EXPECT CAKE FROM YOU TOO DEAR

hmm. This may be an unfair competition if ceph is allowed to enter.

[Well Done]

severely not convinced by Well Done's case on menalque

Sad.

~~More of my thoughts on Mena~~

The context:
~Mena was sitting on the largest early wagon: catboi.
~There was another growing wagon on Monkey Man
~I was currently leaning town on CSF based on the meta check presented in 358.

So, I saw Mena jump off of the largest wagon without voicing any read on catboi, and then ignore the second largest wagon (monkey man), and vote someone I think is town without reason. This makes me curious., so I ask why.

I feel like the timeline is a bit important to my thoughts, so will include.
Original vote is at 6:51 est, presumably he just thought of why he wanted to vote CSF. I ask why immediately after at 6:57 est, he sees my question and posts without answering immediately after at 7:04 est.

He then posts again, still not answering, but instead deflecting into complaining about hydras instead. -- He then comes back to give an answer, an hour after asked. His answer:

Spoiler:

thanks!

I voted CSF for 3 reasons:

(1) I think malc's "oh god 11 pages already" thing is very slightly +scum, but CSF's "he seems like he wouldn't mind the legwork of reading 10 pages" reads as overjustification to me

(2) she didn't say hello to me

(3) *reserved for now*

Firstly, I don't see CSF's explination as a overjustification at all. It was a 2 sentence explenation for the read after being directly asked to explain the read.

Spoiler:

I don't see that at all from this exchange tbh

Spoiler:

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

why

Gut lol

from what?

barely posted, how do you have a gut read

ok maybe i can see it

but answer anyway i wanna hear your answer

From complaining about having to read

My impression of Malcolm is that he doesn't mind doing legwork like reading 10 pages

[/sp/oiler]

Secondly, if the true reason Mena voted CSF was because he saw the Malcom vote reasoning, and thought it was an overjustification, I don't think he would have dodged the question twice before answering.

Thirdly, the way he presented the read was in itself an over justification imo.

His reason for voting CSF, was

maybe

a throw away kind of reason that is good enough to vote someone pre page 5 when you don't have content to look at, but definitely not in the context of when he made it.

Moving his vote, but not being able to / being unwilling to say why when asked, trying to deflect the conversation away, and then finally coming back with a really flimsy reason being presented as a serious reason reads to me like it was a fake read that he was not expecting to be questioned on. Not one that he believed in as he cast the vote.

[Well Done]

dunn, you continue to astonish me with the amount of effort you put in, time and time again, to not understanding my play

460 was done 537 was me (Luke) - but we synced on this read in real time

[Well Done]

Damn auto correct. 460 was dunn, not done

[Well Done]

This is more of me echoing Well Done's concern that the mod might not put a beloved princess in to be randomized in this setup

That is not our stance

We said that we have doubts whether a beloved princess would be aligned with the mafia/werewolf factions

My belief is that in general mastina does not fake claim, regardless of alignment, except for in extreme circumstances. They claimed beloved princess? That's their real role. Now figure out their alignment. We are against eliminating the beloved princess.

[Well Done]

dunn, you continue to astonish me with the amount of effort you put in, time and time again, to not understanding my play

This post very much feels like a deflection. Convenient way to ignore the point being made.

It is a deflection, and it is wrong. Luke wrote out that post, and even if he didn't, there is no basis behind what Menalque is saying regarding Dunn putting in effort to not understand their play. They have been trying to downplay our slot ever since we started to push them, and it looks to be out of self preservation.

[Well Done]

My belief is that in general mastina does not fake claim, regardless of alignment, except for in extreme circumstances. They claimed beloved princess? That's their real role. Now figure out their alignment. We are against eliminating the beloved princess.

Source:

Spoiler:

Mastina could still be fakeclaiming

Due to a CERTAIN rule change that I VEHEMENTLY disagree with, I cannot really respond to this without getting banned as I am probably already dangerously close but fucked if I know where the line on that rule is precisely, it's a fucking bullshit rule change and the sheer ambiguity present in how fucking hard it is to know where the line is in what I can and can't say is proof of why it's a shitty ass rule which yes, does in fact punish neurodivergent folk on mafiascum (more on that below), so let's just say that I am attempting to remain within the rule and if I am not actually within the rule, that's proof of why the rule is so bullshit because this is literally

me trying to follow the rule

while still

playing the game

.

But let's just say: I have some VERY strong words to say about that rule change; check out what I have to say there and think about how likely it is that I am to fakeclaim as scum.

That said, without linking to MD (where I can probably track down other MD posts beyond/before the rule change if I cared to for the record), and in trying to fit to the spirit of the rule in spite of how fucking bullshit the rule is, let me attempt to word this in a way that is within the rule and is entirely 100% specific to this game:

There is a reason in

this game

that I would not fakeclaim as scum.

What reason is that?

It's called "I have an anxiety disorder".
Now, if you want to disbelieve me on the above,
One, you're an asshole, because you should never fucking disbelieve someone when they say they have a disorder like that, and two, I can pretty damn easily prove that I do in fact have an anxiety disorder.

But since I am going to

assume

you are not an asshole, I am going to assume you do in fact believe me when I say I have a pretty damn bad/severe anxiety disorder.
So...What does that mean?

Well let me tell you what it means.

It means I am neurotic and borderline paranoid.

So what does that mean in a mafia game precisely?

Well let me give you some background on what anxiety does to someone.
When I was driving my car, I got a "what if I am in a crash and I shatter my knee?" thought. Anxiety.
"What if I suffer from a heart attack?" thought. Anxiety.
"What if a bear or cougar mauls me on the way to my car" while it's dark. Anxiety.
"What if I lose my job from having done something wrong?". Anxiety.
"What if this condition I can see/feel/etc. is something actually severe?" Anxiety.
I have borderline crippling anxiety, and the above are daily examples of how it manifests.

So now! Let's translate what that very same anxiety does to me in a

mafia

context.
And I mean that both in the sense of mafia game, and in the case for showing why I would not be fakeclaiming in this specific game, a mafia

alignment

!

Do you know how I think when I am scum?
Well in the context of this game, I can tell you what would happen for the idea of fakeclaiming being infected by the mold:
"What if there is a mold tracker role that can track players who have mold? If such a role exists and I fakeclaim, I could be caught by it!"
"What if there is a mold detector role that can detect mold on a player they target? If such a role exists and I fakeclaim, I could be caught by it!"
"What if there is a role that can detect things like [poisoned] [infected] etc. and they target me? If such a role exists and I fakeclaim, they wouldn't see the mold!"
"What if I need to use the mold every single night in order to use the role properly? What if not using the mold for a night literally costs us the game from having not used it?"
Depending on what the mold actually

does

, there might also be something akin to "What if the mold triggers and I am not impacted the way the players with the mold are?".
Depending on how the mold infects people (say for instance it could spread based on night actions), there might also be something akin to "What if someone targets me and then doesn't get infected by mold? Wouldn't that out me as a liar?"

I'm probably missing two or three more that come to mind.

You may insist.
"No human being could actually think that way!"
"Those thoughts are ridiculous!"
"Those thoughts are clearly absurd."
"Those thoughts are so improbable as to be borderline impossible."
And similar.

But if so?

If anything like that enters your mind?

You don't fucking know how anxiety works

in my brain

.

Because that is

precisely

how it works.

Yes, those thoughts are paranoia.
Yes, those thoughts are ridiculously unlikely.
Yes, those thoughts are neurotic, even deranged.

But that is how scumastina thinks. She fears so much as a 1%.
If there is a 1% chance of being caught in a lie, it means my anxiety will cause me to fear that possibility being real, and the thought then consumes my mind. It's an idea, it grows like a disease, and consumes me. The 1% grows to a 50+% in my mind. So the things that might be safe to do in practice become borderline suicide in my mind.

If the site mods want to ban me for having just described to you how my anxiety works, then by god I'm going to say something I never thought I would say and say that I will join Nancy Drew in saying that the site staff literally

is

discriminating against Neurodivergent folks.

Because guess what? Anxiety + Autism is why I am a wallposter. I'm obsessed with explaining my thoughts to perfection, thus, cannot be succinct.

I can no less get over a fear of fakeclaiming than I can be succinct. Them banning me for a fear of fakeclaiming as scum would literally be equivalent to them banning me for not being succinct. I'm dead serious in that comparison. It would be banning me for something that is

a fundamental immutable unchangeable aspect of myself

.

So I do truly hope that this is within their new bullshit rule, and also a sufficient answer to your statement.

Spoiler:

Subject: Mafia Rule Updates Discussion Thread

That said, I do in fact take issue with the trust tell part.

I don't fakeclaim as scum, and I say that every game, but that is not a policy I enforce because it is a policy--it is a policy I "enforce" because in literally every single game I play as scum, telling the truth is better than lying. Like, lying about my role would literally be playing against my wincon as scum; telling the truth about my role is genuinely me playing to my wincon.

This policy if I were to be punished for having it by the site rules would mean that you'd be requiring me to

literally gamethrow as scum

in order to not run afoul of it.

Sure, if a mod ran a game where I had a genuine need to fakeclaim (say that it's explicitly a role madness game with no VTs and I get an explicitly scum role that cannot be claimed as a town role), I would as scum lie about my role because in that scenario, truthfully claiming would be playing against my wincon.

But if a mod gives me a role that I can truthfully claim, then not claiming it is genuinely gamethrowing because the role as-is looks town enough to not be a scum role. (And if the role cannot be truthfully claimed, then it can be slightly modified. Roleblocker into Jailkeeper; turning a Disloyal scum role into a claim of being a Loyal town role. And if the role cannot be modified into a town role, then I can just claim VT.)

I say in every game that I do not fakeclaim as scum--but it's not because I refuse to. It's because it's genuinely gamethrowing for me to fakeclaim when the truth is literally my best weapon as scum.

Imo, trust tells typically are something that are, explicitly, designed to gain an advantage

as town

, while

at the detriment

to your scumgame.

If you are playing to your SCUM win condition, then it fundamentally cannot be a trust tell because it is fundamentally not to the detriment of your scumgame because it is not designed to gamethrow as scum to give an advantage to the town.

But this policy seems alarmingly like it is going to prevent me from playing to my scum wincon by stating that I don't fakeclaim.

Spoiler:

Subject: Mafia Rule Updates Discussion Thread

That said, I do in fact take issue with the trust tell part.

I don't fakeclaim as scum, and I say that every game, but that is not a policy I enforce because it is a policy--it is a policy I "enforce" because in literally every single game I play as scum, telling the truth is better than lying. Like, lying about my role would literally be playing against my wincon as scum; telling the truth about my role is genuinely me playing to my wincon.

This policy if I were to be punished for having it by the site rules would mean that you'd be requiring me to

literally gamethrow as scum

in order to not run afoul of it.

Sure, if a mod ran a game where I had a genuine need to fakeclaim (say that it's explicitly a role madness game with no VTs and I get an explicitly scum role that cannot be claimed as a town role), I would as scum lie about my role because in that scenario, truthfully claiming would be playing against my wincon.

But if a mod gives me a role that I can truthfully claim, then not claiming it is genuinely gamethrowing because the role as-is looks town enough to not be a scum role. (And if the role cannot be truthfully claimed, then it can be slightly modified. Roleblocker into Jailkeeper; turning a Disloyal scum role into a claim of being a Loyal town role. And if the role cannot be modified into a town role, then I can just claim VT.)

I say in every game that I do not fakeclaim as scum--but it's not because I refuse to. It's because it's genuinely gamethrowing for me to fakeclaim when the truth is literally my best weapon as scum.

Imo, trust tells typically are something that are, explicitly, designed to gain an advantage

as town

, while

at the detriment

to your scumgame.

If you are playing to your SCUM win condition, then it fundamentally cannot be a trust tell because it is fundamentally not to the detriment of your scumgame because it is not designed to gamethrow as scum to give an advantage to the town.

But this policy seems alarmingly like it is going to prevent me from playing to my scum wincon by stating that I don't fakeclaim.

A perfect example of this is the recently completed subreddit uPick.

In that game, I pointed out that

in three years

, I'd never been active as scum before.
If I was town, then by the revised rules that'd be considered a trust tell.
Because it was pointing out a truthful thing about my play that has a long long history of having been true.

As town, in the last three years, I've been rather passionate and incredibly invested in my towngames;
As scum, in the last three years, I've had fuckall of anything done--but not because of any deliberate effort.
It's just that I was struggling in those scumgames and not struggling in those towngames. But it was still a very very very strong trend, lasting over the course of MULTIPLE years.

I

couldn't

effort as scum. It wasn't a choice to not effort. I literally tried, but failed, every single time as scum. I could no more effort as scum than I could be succinct. In that it was literally just...part of me. I fundamentally was unable to be efforting as scum. But could effort easily as town.

I pointed that out in subreddit uPick, in order to try and dissuade the town from eliminating me, by pointing out that trend.

...But instead of being town, I was in fact actually scum and that scumgame just so happened to be the first game in over three years where I broke the trend.

Would I be punished for pointing out a trend that was out of my control, even if in the current game it was breaking the trend?

And similarly, for not lying, the only lie I told about my role that game was a lie of omission. I left out the redirect aspect of my role but otherwise claimed it fully. This was, explicitly, playing to my win condition: hiding a scum aspect to my role, but claiming the town aspect of it in a game where

the mods literally said every role started as town

. The mods literally said in the signups for the game that every role was designed initially as town, then refined based on alignment. So me saying my town role aspect but leaving out the scum aspect was playing to my wincon, but it was still 100% truthful, maintaining my "never lie about my role as scum" policy, unless you count a lie by omission (which imo does not count as a true lie).

Trust telling is something that imo is done to gain an advantage specifically as one alignment, to the detriment of the other alignment.
E.g. "I always self-hammer as scum" would be to the detriment of scumgame to gain an advantage as town. (The classic trust tell.) Stating "I am town" in red text as town but not as scum as another.

But when the rules are punishing a

playstyle

which affects me

regardless of my alignment

, I feel like that's an issue.

If it is not to the detriment of one alignment, why should it be punished? If it is universal in how it impacts your games, omnipresent regardless of your alignment and you constantly point out "this could be broken any time", "it COULD be broken this game, but...", "it's not something I control, but it still happens", etc., and yet you are still playing to your wincon

in that game

by doing it and not playing to future games' wincons? That feels dangerously restrictive.

I don't fakeclaim as scum is a perfect example of that. I don't fakeclaim because I fucking suck at lying/bullshitting roles so when I have no need to fakeclaim (which is 99.99% of all my scumgames), I just don't. It

can

benefit both alignments. (Not fakeclaiming as scum->fakeclaimed as town->likely to be seen as town; Not fakeclaiming as scum->claim is likely truthful->not scum bullshitting in spite of still being scum.) But it's not designed to.

As the post said, if you believe that bussing was genuinely against your wincon, then saying such shouldn't be prohibited because it can still work to your favor as either alignment. (If a player who doesn't bus generally decides that, actually, in this game, it wasn't playing against wincon? Then bam, bingo, scum benefit.)

Basically, absolutes which aren't absolute but just hold true in 99.99% of games due to the situation applying in 99.99% of games are, imo, not trust tells.

Games are situational. Every single time, every single game, the situation is different. If 99/100 situations end up with the same optimal outcome, why is it a trust tell to point out the optimal action/outcome in those 99/100 times? If 99/100 situations end up with the same optimal outcome, why can't you point out the 99/100 in the 1/100 situation? It feels incredibly limiting in an unhealthy way.

Spoiler:

Subject: Mafia Rule Updates Discussion Thread

mastina,
This is a formal warning regarding the following infractions:

• This post in (removed) which contains a trust tell. Speaking of your own meta in absolutes and implying that you have never/would never break that meta constitutes a trust tell - you are implying this holds true across all games which has an unfair element of truth to it outside the realm of the game. Again, trust tells can harm the game's integrity when a slot is able to use self-meta in a way that confirms something about the slot when it shouldn't be able to, providing an in-game advantage that slots without such tells would not be able to replicate. This is against the rules regardless of whether your statement is actually true in this game, and regardless of whether the alignment of your trust tell is the same as your current alignment. Trust tells are also further described in the announcement thread on OGI.

While both of the above types of out-of-game influence have been clarified in our recent announcement thread, trust tells have always constituted out-of-game influence and out-of-game influence has always been against the rules. Please note that any further infractions related to game integrity may lead to escalated action from the Listmod team, including restrictions on playing mafia. Feel free to reach out to a Listmod with any questions.

- the Listmod team

I stated why this is bullshit already but let me once again state why the rule is bullshit:

solution to never being accused of trust telling: have a scum meta of being absolutely willing to break any and all tells you might have exclusive to you as town, and to do anything as town.

I mean that IS my scumplay.

I SAY "I never fakeclaim as scum", but actually, I have. It's just so rare that it's easier and simpler to say "I never fakeclaim as scum" rather than "fakeclaiming would be against a scum wincon for me here, just like it would be against a scum wincon in 99% of my games because fakeclaiming as scum is almost always the wrong move as scum when a truthful claim is more likely to believed and unable to be caught as a lie".

The former is now considered a trusttell even though the latter is the more accurate version and would weirdly enough not be one. The former is shorthand for the latter but the mods are banning the former and yet not the latter.

I SAY "If I'm posting, I'm town; if I'm not posting, I'm scum", but actually, I've been quite active as scum. It's just that in the last three years, 99% of my active games have been town games and 75% of my inactive games have been scumgames.

I am willing to break any towntell I have as scum. And I do, when the situation calls for it. But the situation calls for it very rarely; it wouldn't be a towntell if it was optimal scumplay every single scumgame.

I think the new rule is a bad change.

To address mastina's never-fakeclaiming-as-scum tell specifically, and why we believe it is an example that's over the line: it is a tell with a long history across a huge number of games, that it is claimed will, at least in some sense, never be broken. It is very centralizing because it is brought up so frequently. It is typically framed (or we've seen it framed) as intentionally avoiding certain options, rather than an incidental observation about how you play the game. It is typically framed as "I will never do this". Ultimately, we've looked at examples of it happening and we believe that on net, over time, it is harmful to game integrity. Avoiding these aspects of it (i.e. not framing it in this way, essentially treating it as an incidental aspect of the way you play the game that has no guarantee of categorically being true) would significantly lower the negative impact on game integrity that we believe it has.

The reason this is bullshit is because in basically every game, fakeclaiming is genuinely against a scum wincon.

Don't believe me?

Well let's break down almost every scumgame I've ever played and why I didn't fakeclaim--or in a couple of rare cases, why I did.

The "why I did" is just as important here--it shows proof that I have in fact fakeclaimed before in spite of me saying "I don't fakeclaim as scum".
I believe this was a fakeclaim? Game was too long ago for me to remember but I believe it was not a real claim given I flipped Mafia Cop? (I'd need to figure out how to access the scum QT to tell for sure.) So in one of my very first scumgames, I

did

fakeclaim.

On the note of early scumplays, one of my very first scumgames onsite involved a fakeclaim of being a cop in a semi-open setup.

In this game I fakeclaimed cop as the last scum in my faction counterclaiming an actual cop. In the history of fakeclaims, this is pretty much the worst possible fakeclaim you could ever make. This was also a game that I double-bussed my scumteam...in multiball.

THIS WAS THE GAME THAT TAUGHT ME THE POLICY OF WHY FAKECLAIMING AS SCUM IS SO BAD

. When you make a fakeclaim

that

atrocious, you learn to

never do it again

.

Granted, after the cop flipped, I did end up truthfully claiming my real role of doctor, but only after the damage had been done from the botched fakeclaim.

That was augmented by this game, where my scumbuddy stole my safeclaim leaving me with no safeclaim, necessitating a fakeclaim from me--one which did not work. Because how could it? It was a fakeclaim. It wasn't what the mod provided me. I didn't have a mod-provided safeclaim because my scumbuddy who was already dead had used said safeclaim as their own. Without a fakeclaim of my own, I had to fake it and guess what?

Fakeclaiming didn't work

.

If fakeclaiming has a proven record of NOT WINNING ME SCUM GAMES, then why the fuck would I fakeclaim as scum?

In this game, I actually DID fakeclaim. This is

the

game I mention when I mention that I

have

fakeclaimed because it is the epitome of the one and only circumstance where fakeclaiming is the right choice: when it is necessary for you to live, you can make an educated guess, you can slot your role into the town roles without it being a scumclaim, there's a decent chance you do not get caught, and in the scenario where you do, you out a TPR for your scumteam to then kill.

For a fakeclaim to not be gamethrowing, it needs to hit all of those criteria. Why fakeclaim when you can live with a VT claim? A fakeclaim needs to have a purpose, where without it, you die. Why fakeclaim when you have no information? Fakeclaiming when there is danger of being caught is absolutely a terrible idea. Why fakeclaim when you have nothing you want to get out of the town from your claim? If you're not going to get a TPR to out themselves to take you down, and you go down without the TPR having done so, the fakeclaim was the wrong move.

It is the golden standard that every scumgame of mine would need to fit--

And literally every scumgame since then has

failed

to meet those criteria.

In this game, I was a Godfather. As a Godfather, you are

meant

to claim VT. You are meant to draw a Cop investigation, so you claim VT. You don't fakeclaim as a Godfather because you want to be playing in a way to bait a Cop investigation. So, the

optimal play

was to

not

fakeclaim. Literally would have been gamethrowing to have fakeclaimed.

In this game, there was a cop I believe with a guilty on me? (I don't remember exactly.) So I did fakeclaim there, counterclaiming the cop, as an example of me having fakeclaimed that I forgot about, this one done as a desperate one out of necessity where not fakeclaiming would have been gamethrowing. (Now obviously, didn't work out.) There was no way to avoid fakeclaiming, so fakeclaiming was genuinely playing to my win condition, so I did.

I only fakeclaim when doing so would be playing to my scum win condition.

At any other time, doing so would be against my wincon.

In this game, I did fakeclaim because I wasn't sure if trueclaiming or fakeclaiming was the right move. As it turns out?

Trueclaiming was the right move

. But I lost the 50/50 because I chose to fakeclaim and as a consequence, got outted as a confirmed liar.

The risk of being outed as a confirmed liar is one of the BIG fucking reasons I don't fakeclaim as scum.

If there is a risk of being outed as a liar as scum, then fakeclaiming is, as shown by the above game, genuinely playing against your win condition, when telling the truth would have won you the game (or at least done you more good).

In this game, I did 50/50. I claimed my real role, but lied about my target. This post summarizes my stance on not fakeclaiming as scum, and it was that game which further solidified why I do not.

In this game, I technically also fakeclaimed although I was inheriting the fakeclaim of my slot's predecessor (Titus had already claimed by the time I replaced in, just not publicly).

In this game, my role was one that I needed to be truthful about. Given that I was giving out inventions, it's something I

couldn't

lie about. It was literally IMPOSSIBLE for me to lie that game. I HAD to tell the truth; not telling the truth would have been gamethrowing. So, a lack of fakeclaiming as scum was playing to my wincon because telling the truth is genuinely the only thing I COULD do.

In this game, I claimed my mod-provided safeclaim. Now, granted. My mod-provided safeclaim was not quite my real role. But it was

moderator-provided

. When the MODERATOR provides a SAFEclaim, that means as scum it is SAFE to claim that role and have it not out you as scum. That means that there is no need to fakeclaim because the moderator provided a mod-given safeclaim. And it was a good safeclaim, too. Claiming anything else would have been gamethrowing.

In this game, I claimed my mod-provided safeclaim. It might've been slightly modified, I don't quite remember the details, I discussed it with a scumbuddy the entire night to make sure it was good enough, but it was still mod-provided as a safeclaim. It was not a fakeclaim. Because there is a tangible difference between 'safeclaim' and 'fakeclaim'. A

safe

claim is a moderator-provided claim given to scum that is safe to claim without it being a scumclaim. A

fake

claim is a scum-designed claim that the scum make on their own without (or with minimal) input from the mod. This was the former, not the latter, but the presence of a safeclaim invalidates the need for a fakeclaim.

In this game, I actually

did

fakeclaim, as a scum traitor...
...And for my troubles? My scumteam SHOT me for my fakeclaim. I did genuinely believe that, as a traitor, fakeclaiming was playing to the scum wincon, but you can clearly tell by how the game went why fakeclaiming did not work,

yet again

reinforcing my policy for why fakeclaiming is bad as scum.

In this game, half of my role I

couldn't

hide (using the double vote was public), and the other half of my role was advantageous to claim. Fakeclaiming would have been gamethrowing especially given the setup in that game so not fakeclaiming was the best move.

In this game, I realclaimed my role, and realclaimed the circumstances. The moderator genuinely

did

forget to send me my results at daystart (I have the PMs to prove it); every time I asked the mod questions, I told the truth about that in the thread (I have the PMs to prove it); every answer I got back from the mod was truthful and I have the PMs to prove it.

So telling the truth about all of that was playing to my wincon.

But I actually

did

tell a lie which counts as a fakeclaim of sorts. A Loyal Tracker targeted me the night before, so I lied about the results of my role to indicate that I was redirected--this was a necessity to prevent the guilty on me from being an actual guilty. It was a situation where I was telling

mostly

the truth, with a

necessary

lie. But the truth was NECESSARY for the lie to work. Without the truth, the lie would have been obviously a lie. So both telling the truth,

and

telling the lie, were necessary to be playing to my wincon. Purely telling the truth, or completely bullshitting, both would have been playing against my wincon; it was only the 98% truth with a 2% lie that made it work.

Which again adds fuel to the fire. Had I been fakeclaiming, that would not have worked. I

could not

have won that game without telling almost entirely the truth.

In this game, I needed to tell the truth about my role in order to ensure I was the D1 elimination. Pine (our scum mastermind) correctly deduced that my role was worthless to the scumteam (and thus, expendable), and the counterwagon to me was a far far far more useful scum role that we actually needed. So telling the truth rather than fakeclaiming was me playing to my wincon because the scum needed to sacc me in order to save the scum PR. Fakeclaiming would have been playing against my wincon because it'd have resulted in the far stronger scum PR being eliminated instead of me.

In this game, I couldn't fakeclaim because the game's mechanics were literally you having a past role of a past game. That meant I could only claim past town roles of mine. None of which would have fit for the game.

In this game, it was literally impossible for me to fakeclaim. My Hated status was something that needed to be claimed by necessity. And the only way to use my role was to use it publicly. I

couldn't

fakeclaim. I

couldn't

lie about my role--it was LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE. So there was no possible way for me to fakeclaim, forcing a truthful claim.

In this game, I claimed a modified version of the scum mechanic. It was both a realclaim, and a fakeclaim. I did as scum have something

similar

, but I actually DID lie. I claimed that I had empowered the slot that (unbeknownst to the town) was empowered by the dead-town. So this is another example of a game where I both did, and did not, fakeclaim. It was equal parts true, and not true. It was equal parts real, and bullshit. Genuinely 50/50 on each. And that was the correct move. A pure bullshit claim with zero truth to it would have not given me anything; a purely truthful claim would've been gamethrowing as skitter knew from mod info what the scum's mechanic was and we knew she did.

In this game, I claimed ascetic because I genuinely was afraid not doing so was a scumclaim. Realclaiming was something that I thought would be playing to my wincon there because if I didn't claim it, then I could be caught and made confscum. Now, granted. I left out the Informed part, because that was a pure scum info that I saw no reason to divulge. So you can say that I lied by omission, but that's about it. Not claiming ascetic was too much of a risk because if an action failed on me which had no reason to fail, then I'd have been screwed. After all, I knew there was a LOYAL NEIGHBORIZER (two actually) in the game. A loyal neighborizer targeting me would get a guilty result, and I needed to explain why the guilty would not be a guilty. Thus, I needed to claim the ascetic. Trueclaiming was, by the setup, made necessary. I COULD NOT have fakeclaimed there because fakeclaiming would have been against my scum wincon.

In this game, I had no reason to lie about my role and had incentive to tell the truth on everything, with the exception of saying I did not kill N1 (when I did), which I had incentive for thanks to my scumbuddy. My role was guaranteed to die at the end of D2, so all I had to do was survive through D1 after using my role, lie about not having done the kill, and let my scumbuddy claim a(n accurate) guilty on me.

In this game, I claimed my real role because there was no reason not to claim it. Doctor was my real role and is a town role. Why would I need to invent a fakeclaim when my realclaim is better than any fakeclaim could be?

In this game, there was genuinely nothing I could claim given what the town roles were. I was also a scum role

literally designed to die

. I was a scum role that was

designed

to be eliminated, in order to janitor my flip and to janitor the flip the following night. When you are a role

designed

to die, you're not

meant

to claim something that will let you live. And even should you choose to, when the town has the tools they had that game, there weren't a lot of options. What

was

I supposed to claim there? I had basically nothing. No mod safeclaim, no viable fakeclaim.

In this game, I was a Goon and the counterwagon to me was a scumbuddy; it was, explicitly, playing to my wincon to

not

fakeclaim because had I fakeclaimed, then our scum PR we wanted to live would have been eliminated on D1.

In this game, due to poor mod design, the only three PRs were basically masons. It was very very obvious that they were the only three PRs in the game from the game design and that there were no other PRs. All three were known, easily identified, proven, and un-CC'able (due to being the last scum alive, natch). Because of the setup and the circumstance, I

couldn't

fakeclaim that game because fakeclaiming would have been gamethrowing.

In this game, I fully believed that claiming my role truthfully was a town role. Scum never get to use Vigilantes so me being a scum Vigilante made me genuinely believe that claiming Vig was playing to my wincon. Lying I thought would be playing against my wincon.



So.

Why am I being punished for saying I don't fakeclaim as scum, when I have always had

damn fucking good reasons

for not having fakeclaimed as scum? (And, in fact,

have a proven record of fakeclaiming as scum

? Did the listmods not do their fucking research into my game history and not notice the games where my claimed role actually didn't match my assigned role?)

I genuinely have just laid out my entire scum history of notable games with claims, and the results speak for themselves.

Every time I fakeclaimed without meeting the standards by which a fakeclaim is optimal, it didn't work, because the fakeclaim was not optimal.
The times I fakeclaim which meet the standards to fakeclaim are incredibly rare.
Most fakeclaims are best supported by being more true than not, at least 50% true if not 75-95%. If a claim's 5% fake but 95% real it's more likely to be believed than a claim that's 95% fake but 5% real.

And most setups actually punish the scum for fakeclaiming and reward the scumteam for trueclaiming.

So the policy, and the rule, is bullshit.

I don't fakeclaim as scum not because of policy against fakeclaiming as scum, but because

fakeclaiming would be gamethrowing as scum

. And stating that, which is truthful, should NOT be against the rules. If it is against my wincon to fakeclaim as scum, then not being able to mention that is literally ridiculous.

[Well Done]

If the roles are randomly aligned I don't functionally see the difference but whatevs

The original running had the same random element, but still had some roles that were not random amongst the entire player list. Werewolves could not random into the monk role, and mafia could not random into the Mason role, the malefactor could not random into being a monk or a mason.

After bloodstained, I would hope that ceph would make the beloved princess in particular a town only role.

I know that that is not a guarantee, but even if that is not the case, I feel like true claiming as beloved princess as scum is a horrible play as a major benefit of the effect cones from the surprise factor. I feel like scum!Mastina would have kept her role to herself, so in otherwords, I believe that mastina claiming the role is +town for her over all.

[Well Done]

I'm about ready to sit down and solve this game. Does anyone have the original roles used in the first multiball?
(looking for a list to give possible combinations, and to rule out impossible combinations)

Roles that dies during the game are in this post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87185

Roles that made it to the end of the game are in this post:
viewtopic.php?p=12912660#p12912660

[Well Done]

Wow so there can also be scum mason?
First flip in previous game was werewolf mason apparently.

There can be a werewolf Mason, but mafia mason is impossible. And the opposite is true for Monks.

In the prior run, the malefactor cannot be either - but I could see that being subject to change in this set up.

[Well Done]

Wow so there can also be scum mason?
First flip in previous game was werewolf mason apparently.

Probably prudent for players to avoid making similar comments on being surprised of this possibility.

[Well Done]

i don't think it's likely that scum mastina claims beloved princess if she actually is a beloved princess

i also don't take any weight in true-claiming mastina because what if one day she decides to fuck with that maybe today is the day maybe there never will be a day but maybe it's today

i don't think mastina's scum i'm just grumpy this morning and trying to make a point

Most likely scenario is that beloved princess is mastina's actual role this game

Pushing mastina on day 1 is pretty anti-town. It's a 23 person game, we can't do anything better than risk hitting a claimed BP on day 1? Maybe somebody here is a vig and blasts them night 1 because they don't trust them.

[Well Done]

Sad to see that no one liked our case on Mena.

On my skim through, I did not like butterchurn's reaction to the Klick wagon with posts 689/714. Seemed like an overreaction given Klick had recieved all of three votes / possibly partner indicative.

Prior to that point, I had retained zero thoughts about butterchurn, so did an iso dive, and ... turns out I like literally every other post made by the dude.

Long story short, I accidentally found a town read on butterchurn.

[Well Done]

Malcolm looks like he's genuinely solving

uh

where?

Don't like the initial vote on monkey but although underexplained 418 is a start, and 491 to 648 looks like he's trying to actually analyze and figure out monkeyman rather than blindly pushing him. That kind of progression can be faked but monkeyman is still a wagon, could easily keep pushing it, instead forcing himself to give other thoughts. The immediate evaluation of Norwee unprompted in 653 looked like he saw someone and decided to investigate, like he's pulling at threads to see what comes out. And again similar where he digs up a cassowary post in 658 when it's not being discussed by anyone, and it's interesting, thoughtful analysis picking at someone's post. Not necessarily on board with a hypocrisy case but the reasoning feels more detailed than you typically get from noob-scum

For a newer player it's fairly decent, hasn't felt like he's making pushes in a dishonest way, and is looking for things to analyze. Don't get the hate? I get he annoyed you by pushing you but I don't think it looked ill intentioned.

It appears that catboi has managed to gained access to my notes. (Although he failed to mention 553, which I also had down)

Which makes me feel better about catbois alignment this game.

[Well Done]

You can vote opportunistically with zero people voting for you, so that seems kinda irrelevant

[Well Done]

VLA before 30 April

Health problems

@Mod, Enchant is vla

[Well Done]

Spoiler:

town:
butterchurn
StD
wallflower
well done
catboi
malc

leantown:
norwee
klick

nulltown:
The Keeper
Tracer Bullet


pile of null:
Nashville Dreams, Sword of Ducks, cassowary, tictac, mastina, papa leaf, MonkeyMan576, Enchant


nullscum:
CSF

scum?
toog
meg
bnuuy

Why do you have TracerBullet north of null?

[Well Done]

Does it look like this person actually cares about trying to solve the game? half her poosts are throwaway filler responses to other people, she's just riding off other people's reads, there's no evidence to show she has any thoughts on the game that are her own.

What about their more recent posts, including where they listed their townreads?

[Well Done]

Wallflower is town. I do not understand people claiming that they looked worse in the 1v1 with catboi.

[Well Done]

See, here's the thing about this: Tracer Bullet is pooky. And yes, pooky co-won paragon last year, etc. But pooky is developing some extremely bad habits.

How do you know Pooky is Tracer?

I don't think that this was ever answered. Tracer was revealed to be pooky in this game viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89250

Which, I found after Mena mused they might be Koba. (Koba alts seem to be outed in a lot of games, so I went to see if they were Koba lol)

[Well Done]

I'm not in a Neighborhood with Klick or Enchant.

Are you also walking back your claim to be in 3 hoods? Or just clearing up that there is not one that includes Klick and Enchant?

[Well Done]

I have received the heebie jeebies.

I actually do think Catboi has a possibility of scum here.

I just think TB caught them off luck and

persistence of wanting them to be scum

, and convinced themselves that they were scum, if that makes sense

To demonstrate that no one should take his pushes seriously because he's not actually basing them off of reads

but wanting people to be scum

This feels like such a specific reason.

And Flavor Leaf has presented it, which apparently not knowing who Tracer Bullet is. and presented as being based on exactly the posts of Tracer Bullet in this game.

While Catboi has presented it, while knowing exactly who Tracer Bullet was, and presented as being based on exactly the way in which Pooky has engaged with them in the past, in past games, on different alts.

I need to talk to Dunn, but thought I would point it out in here while I wait for him to respond to my discord message.

[Well Done]

My immediate paranoia to spotting this is that they are scum together. That in the scum chat they were talking about the playerlist, and catobi said basically this idea as a worry that pooky would likely end up tunneled on him for this reason.

So, when Flavor Leaf saw TB present a scum reads list of 3 names, and saw both catboi and himself on it, he stepped in to discredit the TB push based on this idea.

Then Catboi came in, saw the wagon building on him, he made a post to discredit the TB push based on this idea.

This would make sense as an explanation on why Flavor Leaf went from saying that they were gonna keep on Lurking

Spoiler:

Y'all dont need me hyper posting in a multiball on Day 1 anyways.

To hyper posting the shit out of this game. Like, they went from making post 911 saying they were not going to hyperpost, to becoming the number 1 top poster in the thread over the course of 12 hours.

[This was actually the thing that I was looking into when I spotted the similarities btw. I was looking to see what caused such a massive change in his mindset and approach to this game.]

But, I need to look at FL's then push on catboi to see if that makes any sense... I wish Dunn was online :/

[Well Done]

I find the odds that SoD is VT to be very low, based on the first game role setup.

there were 3 last game what exactly are you referring to

Out of what, 15 or 16 town, that's a pretty low percentage chance.

How many beloved princesses were there?

I'm not sure but obviously the likelyhood of a correlation to VT in the previous game setup is more likely than a BP.

This seems like an entirely fruitless discussion.

VTs are clearly possibly in this set up, both because of the last set up, and because the mod explicitly said so in the OP.

Saying that the odds that someone is a any role is low, because it was out of the x playerlist is also a useless endeavor. Like, if someone claims cop, you shouldn't immediately doubt they are cop because there can only be 1 cop out of the player list, so that player only has a 1/X chance to get the cop role.

[Well Done]

Spoiler:

I find the odds that SoD is VT to be very low, based on the first game role setup.

there were 3 last game what exactly are you referring to

Out of what, 15 or 16 town, that's a pretty low percentage chance.

How many beloved princesses were there?

I'm not sure but obviously the likelyhood of a correlation to VT in the previous game setup is more likely than a BP.

This seems like an entirely fruitless discussion.

VTs are clearly possibly in this set up, both because of the last set up, and because the mod explicitly said so in the OP.

Saying that the odds that someone is a any role is low, because it was out of the x playerlist is also a useless endeavor. Like, if someone claims cop, you shouldn't immediately doubt they are cop because there can only be 1 cop out of the player list, so that player only has a 1/X chance to get the cop role.

I don't think it's fruitless. SoD claimed a role with zero pressure on him which seems kind of dumb. So I think it's entirely appropriate to ask if that's really his role or not.

Monkey Man, I feel like you are semi-consistently not responding to the points actually being made, but instead to points tangentially related to the point being made. It makes dialogue with you somewhat frustrating.

[Well Done]

I need to look at FL's then push on catboi to see if that makes any sense... I wish Dunn was online :/

And, what, you think FL is bussing me on day 1, Luke? Come on.

I mean, I had that exact thought about this paranoia, and then expressed that in the post that you quoted. Sorry you missed it.

[Well Done]

Did someone CC Beloved Princess, or i am wrong from skim?

Someone joked about cc'ing if they were a malefactor, but no one did cc. Maybe that is what gave you that impression?

[Well Done]

I have not understood a single post that the Keeper has made. x.x

[Well Done]

I take it back. I understood their posts about Mastina.

[Well Done]

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Where are you getting this from? First game had 7 scum in it with a similar number of players.

The original game was a 22 player game, split 3:3:1:15

This run of the game is a 23 player game, split 4:4:1:14

Which is a hell of a swing from Ceph to compensate for the stomp of last game. Both scum teams gained +1 scum and we lost -1 town.

[Well Done]

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Where are you getting this from? First game had 7 scum in it with a similar number of players.

'The faction sizes are 14:4:4:1'
In Post 1

Oh, shows me for being lazy and not reading the OP because I assumed it would mostly be like last time (where faction sizes weren't publicly disclosed).

Catboi, you can't get town points for missing this when it has already been discussed in the

We suspect that you are one of the 9 anti-town players in this game.

What makes you say there's 9 anti-town?

Titus

this would be lowkey the funniest slip I've ever seen lmao

[Well Done]

VOTE: Bnuuy

Yeah, I'll vote there.

hmmmmmmmm

[Well Done]

VOTE: Catboi

Bnuuy wagon is boring.

I retract my prior "hmmmmmmm"

[Well Done]

Well Done has majorly fell off.

I wanna see their take on me
That’s one of very few slots that should know who I am already

I for one have no idea who you are. If Dunn does, he has not shared it with me

[Well Done]

Spoiler:

Why are people complaining about the number of pages (and also complaining about people complaining about the number of pages) and not the fact that there seems to be a number of posts dedicated to arguing what “mafia miller” means?

Does it get any better?

I have to say I did not expect anyone to answer my question in good faith. Y’all are the best. <3

Now I’m up to the BP stuff and it seems like we’re still talking about it but I’m probably going to be with Menalque on this one.

That was a different page

I keep trying to read through the last 10 or so pages but right now my eyes glaze over and I keep forgetting what it is I'm even doing (I am quite tired rn!!) I do have some thoughts, such as being okay with the Malcolm wagon, but also that Malcolm's response to it will be telling. I also agree with catboi re: the MonkeyMan wagon whilst also remaining suspicious of catboi (yes, I cannot seem to just let it go) so that's probably going to need some sorting out at some point, but right right now that's just too complex a thought so it will just be staying there as mafia soup in my mind.

I think Malcolm is town

do you actually know that or is this just a hypothetical of if you told me that?

The first.

okay second question: is this like

knowing

knowledge, or "I really don't think it sounds like koba" knowledge?

I think Malcolm is town

yeah, malc is old news, you should hop on the hot new bnuuy wagon!

I was indeed a bit disappointed when I caught up and realised that my opinion was not that ~different~ anymore.

I still think catboi is scum though. I have a theory regarding their play that I want to sit a bit on before talking about because I need more of a sample size, but it reassures me that Tracer appears to be thinking similarly.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

bad feeling bad feeling!

Can you elaborate

gut read, but I have nothing to trust except my gut this game

why is that specific to this game?

my scum list currently is:

Catboi
Mena
Flavor Leaf

I had 3 other scumreads but I forgot them because shit for memory

probably means they weren't worth remembering

I like those three though. Catboi is the only real scumread for me but Mena and FL are explicitly not-townreads.

I would say Wallflower’s last comment is scummier than TB, though, for the piggyback adding momentum to a townie.

If either of them were scum, I’d base it more on luck than TB actually catching them, though

What if I'm the townie and Tracer is just sheeping me, huh?

but Mena and FL are explicitly not-townreads.

oh, cool, could you expand pls?

What is there to expand on? I don't think anything you've done so far is particularly town-indicative. Do you disagree?

saying that papa leaf is not good at scum is just

sort of baffling

this post is odd given the not-so-serious manner of Tracer's post

but Mena and FL are explicitly not-townreads.

oh, cool, could you expand pls?

What is there to expand on? I don't think anything you've done so far is particularly town-indicative. Do you disagree?

I mean, a bit, given that you and I have never played before

I think I'm being fairly pro-active about pushing the game forward so far having led/banded together support for not one but two wagons, and taken a hand in steering it away from boring-as-shit mechtalk

plus people who have never played with me before tend to townlean me at least when I'm being mostly clear about why I think what I think and not deliberately and arse-ily evasive so it was kinda weird to see you call me out as an "explicit non-townread"

That sort of stuff all seems like things you would do as scum in an effort to be read as town though?

I do want to make clear that even though I don't townread you, I have enjoyed your posts and I agree that it feels like you have had a positive impact on the gamestate. But I'm not really sure that you would play differently as scum.

and he should've jumped you for it

but he didn't

so probly scum together

Do you think Menalque's posting re: you having a problem with him was +town?

I agree that Catboi's play has been very ~off~, but I'm not as sure that they're scum together.

Flavor Leaf is more interested in talking about how he's scum!god than actually catching scum in this game.

Therefore

Flavor Leaf is scum

I don't think this is alignment-indicative tbh

lol

I am not sure on Tracer's alignment here, but a few of us were in a Micro Normal where I know at least in my case I let a negative perception of Tracer wrongly influence a scumread there.

I am seeing some similarities in read leaps and responses here which make me hesitant to see Tracer as scum, especially since there are not enough people here who played the micro game for playing in the same way to be worth it.

PEdit: I've changed my mind. I have a cautious townread on Tracer.

I can't wait for Town Paragon Flavor Leaf to show up on Day 4 with the solution

Day 3?

I think you’re all good as town and as scum.

Meanwhile I have a 0% win rate on this site and I think you should sheep me on catboi

Okay, this is clearly personal, and regardless of your alignment, I think you should stop.

I pushed mena/catboi as a team and voted catboi

mena's been trying to make this shit personal for ???? reasons

I've been trying to get him to explain his townread of catboi

he continues not to.

so like lol sure

keep pretending we're the same

we're not.

I think if you come back to the thread later and read your own posts with a level head you will see that you were the one taking shots at people and making things personal and generally being antagonistic. But you probably already know that, and this was probably intentional to cause chaos and rile things up, so it probably doesn't matter what I say anyway.

I think it’s a tempting idea to think that someone is intentionally causing chaos like this, but I have wrongly thought this about Tracer before.

well that was a fun series of posts to catch up on

I don't really see the case on Malcolm as scum, I think he looks pretty townie to me for now.

No real opinion on any of these meta reads, these do nothing for me, I know none of you. I'm sure you're all very cool and good at mafia. However I do think looking over Flavor Leaf's iso, a lot of his posting has been kind of reactive and/or meta discussion, which is pinging me a little bit.

I kind of see the point on monkeyman that he's acting

weird

but not necessarily scummy. Not sure he's my top suspicion at the moment.

pedit: originally I moved my vote to flavor leaf here but then he made a couple nice posts with detailed reasoning and now I'm conflicted again.

I'm not really sure I see the case on catboi as scum, to be honest. I suppose it's possible but

nothing about their posts is really particularly sticking out to me.

Honestly, you'll have to forgive me for being a bit all-over-the-place at the moment, this is the first time I've played a multiball game

or

a hydra game, so it's a bit tricky to read people in ways I'm used to and it's kind of a lot to deal with, haha. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it with time though.

One game town with the same exact role, two games I played poorly as mafia, and one

fantastic

role madness game as a serial killer.

Just to be clear, you're claiming you've rolled vanilla townie in this game?

And herein lies one of the issues

Does it look like this person actually cares about trying to solve the game? half her poosts are throwaway filler responses to other people, she's just riding off other people's reads, there's no evidence to show she has any thoughts on the game that are her own.

Hmm.
This kinda makes me townread catboi.

I think that that might be catboi's scummiest post

[Well Done]

Spoiler:

Why are people complaining about the number of pages (and also complaining about people complaining about the number of pages) and not the fact that there seems to be a number of posts dedicated to arguing what “mafia miller” means?

Does it get any better?

I have to say I did not expect anyone to answer my question in good faith. Y’all are the best. <3

Now I’m up to the BP stuff and it seems like we’re still talking about it but I’m probably going to be with Menalque on this one.

That was a different page

I keep trying to read through the last 10 or so pages but right now my eyes glaze over and I keep forgetting what it is I'm even doing (I am quite tired rn!!) I do have some thoughts, such as being okay with the Malcolm wagon, but also that Malcolm's response to it will be telling. I also agree with catboi re: the MonkeyMan wagon whilst also remaining suspicious of catboi (yes, I cannot seem to just let it go) so that's probably going to need some sorting out at some point, but right right now that's just too complex a thought so it will just be staying there as mafia soup in my mind.

I think Malcolm is town

do you actually know that or is this just a hypothetical of if you told me that?

The first.

okay second question: is this like

knowing

knowledge, or "I really don't think it sounds like koba" knowledge?

I think Malcolm is town

yeah, malc is old news, you should hop on the hot new bnuuy wagon!

I was indeed a bit disappointed when I caught up and realised that my opinion was not that ~different~ anymore.

I still think catboi is scum though. I have a theory regarding their play that I want to sit a bit on before talking about because I need more of a sample size, but it reassures me that Tracer appears to be thinking similarly.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

bad feeling bad feeling!

Can you elaborate

gut read, but I have nothing to trust except my gut this game

why is that specific to this game?

my scum list currently is:

Catboi
Mena
Flavor Leaf

I had 3 other scumreads but I forgot them because shit for memory

probably means they weren't worth remembering

I like those three though. Catboi is the only real scumread for me but Mena and FL are explicitly not-townreads.

I would say Wallflower’s last comment is scummier than TB, though, for the piggyback adding momentum to a townie.

If either of them were scum, I’d base it more on luck than TB actually catching them, though

What if I'm the townie and Tracer is just sheeping me, huh?

but Mena and FL are explicitly not-townreads.

oh, cool, could you expand pls?

What is there to expand on? I don't think anything you've done so far is particularly town-indicative. Do you disagree?

saying that papa leaf is not good at scum is just

sort of baffling

this post is odd given the not-so-serious manner of Tracer's post

but Mena and FL are explicitly not-townreads.

oh, cool, could you expand pls?

What is there to expand on? I don't think anything you've done so far is particularly town-indicative. Do you disagree?

I mean, a bit, given that you and I have never played before

I think I'm being fairly pro-active about pushing the game forward so far having led/banded together support for not one but two wagons, and taken a hand in steering it away from boring-as-shit mechtalk

plus people who have never played with me before tend to townlean me at least when I'm being mostly clear about why I think what I think and not deliberately and arse-ily evasive so it was kinda weird to see you call me out as an "explicit non-townread"

That sort of stuff all seems like things you would do as scum in an effort to be read as town though?

I do want to make clear that even though I don't townread you, I have enjoyed your posts and I agree that it feels like you have had a positive impact on the gamestate. But I'm not really sure that you would play differently as scum.

and he should've jumped you for it

but he didn't

so probly scum together

Do you think Menalque's posting re: you having a problem with him was +town?

I agree that Catboi's play has been very ~off~, but I'm not as sure that they're scum together.

Flavor Leaf is more interested in talking about how he's scum!god than actually catching scum in this game.

Therefore

Flavor Leaf is scum

I don't think this is alignment-indicative tbh

lol

I am not sure on Tracer's alignment here, but a few of us were in a Micro Normal where I know at least in my case I let a negative perception of Tracer wrongly influence a scumread there.

I am seeing some similarities in read leaps and responses here which make me hesitant to see Tracer as scum, especially since there are not enough people here who played the micro game for playing in the same way to be worth it.

PEdit: I've changed my mind. I have a cautious townread on Tracer.

I can't wait for Town Paragon Flavor Leaf to show up on Day 4 with the solution

Day 3?

I think you’re all good as town and as scum.

Meanwhile I have a 0% win rate on this site and I think you should sheep me on catboi

Okay, this is clearly personal, and regardless of your alignment, I think you should stop.

I pushed mena/catboi as a team and voted catboi

mena's been trying to make this shit personal for ???? reasons

I've been trying to get him to explain his townread of catboi

he continues not to.

so like lol sure

keep pretending we're the same

we're not.

I think if you come back to the thread later and read your own posts with a level head you will see that you were the one taking shots at people and making things personal and generally being antagonistic. But you probably already know that, and this was probably intentional to cause chaos and rile things up, so it probably doesn't matter what I say anyway.

I think it’s a tempting idea to think that someone is intentionally causing chaos like this, but I have wrongly thought this about Tracer before.

well that was a fun series of posts to catch up on

I don't really see the case on Malcolm as scum, I think he looks pretty townie to me for now.

No real opinion on any of these meta reads, these do nothing for me, I know none of you. I'm sure you're all very cool and good at mafia. However I do think looking over Flavor Leaf's iso, a lot of his posting has been kind of reactive and/or meta discussion, which is pinging me a little bit.

I kind of see the point on monkeyman that he's acting

weird

but not necessarily scummy. Not sure he's my top suspicion at the moment.

pedit: originally I moved my vote to flavor leaf here but then he made a couple nice posts with detailed reasoning and now I'm conflicted again.

I'm not really sure I see the case on catboi as scum, to be honest. I suppose it's possible but

nothing about their posts is really particularly sticking out to me.

Honestly, you'll have to forgive me for being a bit all-over-the-place at the moment, this is the first time I've played a multiball game

or

a hydra game, so it's a bit tricky to read people in ways I'm used to and it's kind of a lot to deal with, haha. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it with time though.

One game town with the same exact role, two games I played poorly as mafia, and one

fantastic

role madness game as a serial killer.

Just to be clear, you're claiming you've rolled vanilla townie in this game?

And herein lies one of the issues

Does it look like this person actually cares about trying to solve the game? half her poosts are throwaway filler responses to other people, she's just riding off other people's reads, there's no evidence to show she has any thoughts on the game that are her own.

Hmm.
This kinda makes me townread catboi.

this is one of the posts I scum read the most. They went after WallFlower because it was the best one on their wagon to make a case against.

huh.

same thought

[Well Done]

I'm starting to feel ill so I must question my reads from this morning.

Can someone briefly give me points where they feel I'm wrong besides catboi is too town to be town?

~Titus

You showed up late. You need to look at that bnuuy wagon.

I will but I feel that it's another counter to catboi. That makes me think town before reading.

However, I am open to being wrong. It's also getting to the point where there are so many counters that catboi may need to be eliminated as catboi couldn't live until elo.

~Titus

Can you walk me through this post Titus?

You seem to be saying that it is yet another wagon designed to be a counter wagon to Catboi, but I thought you had catboi down as town. Do you think that scum are repeatedly setting up counterwagons on town!catboi? Or do you think that the counterwagons are coming from town? or?

[Well Done]

Well Done has majorly fell off.

I wanna see their take on me
That’s one of very few slots that should know who I am already

We have discussed this among ourselves and come to the conclusion that we don't know what you are talking about.

[Well Done]

Well Done has majorly fell off.

I wanna see their take on me
That’s one of very few slots that should know who I am already

We have discussed this among ourselves and come to the conclusion that we don't know what you are talking about.

hmm...

You're free to explain it for us if you've got something to say

[Well Done]

Well Done has majorly fell off.

I wanna see their take on me
That’s one of very few slots that should know who I am already

We have discussed this among ourselves and come to the conclusion that we don't know what you are talking about.

Surprised about this
I definitely made a post on my main in a game both of you were in saying this was me
Also if you do figure it out pls don’t reveal it to the class, I’m reserving that for myself

I have no idea why you would have expected me to remember a single throw away comment, that you made nearly 6 months ago, about an alt I had never encountered before when I read the comment (and therefore the name meant nothing to me when it was said), while you were playing in a hydra.

I also have no idea why I just took the time to scour this site to find the answer to this question. But I guess we both don't makes sense lmao

[Well Done]

We think that Flavor Leaf is scum and has taken great efforts to establish narratives this game to control the flow of the game. Setting up strong ideas that it is this person vs that person, or that this other person is pocketing people, that scum are covering for Catboi and that mastina is a good elimination (she's not). They feel like they're talking past us and setting up their own version of events for this game. It doesn't feel like he is focused on finding and killing scum so much as trying to push narratives today and trying to get people to think about the game in certain ways.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Well Done]

Yes and stop disagreeing with us about every single thing

[Well Done]

There's a lot of bad math on this page. 1911 is correct.

[Well Done]

Probability of 1 scum in 4 random people is not 35%

It is if you act like the malefactor is a bad elim, which is what they're talking about

[Well Done]

8/23 = ~.348

[Well Done]

Probability of 1 scum in 4 random people is not 35%

It is if you act like the malefactor is a bad elim, which is what they're talking about

[Well Done]

Are we eliminating a group of 4 people, or 1 person today?

Those are the right numbers if we use the real rules

[Well Done]

omg

that's not the question that's being asked

OK

For your question, the probability of at least 1 anti-town player being within a group of 4 players in this game is 86%

[Well Done]

if you don't want to read up the context don't bother calling people out

Nah

Numbers like 30% and 37.5% were being thrown around

[Well Done]

Flavor Leaf calls anybody who pushes him scum.

[Well Done]

[Well Done]

well done what other scum reads do you have

i believe we can find something we agree on

We scumread Menalque
We are suspicious of Malcolm and catboi
We are less suspicious of Klick and tictac and haven't given them a strong look over but have acknowledged them

We were suspicious of Monkeyman and Sword of Ducks at one point and need to think over it again

[Well Done]

And I'm not even necessarily calling you scum with confidence, just more acknowledging the baseless push, it's why you're pink.

You said I'm scum reading everyone who's called me scum, correct?

Name those people, Well Done.

mastina, Nashville dreams, ourself

[Well Done]

I was including all 9 anti-town and using a pool of 22, to not include whoever's perspective it is from. Not very important, I know, but I do believe my math was correct.

Explains why your Humbling Bundle isn't paying out. there's 23 in this game.

If I'm choosing a group of 4, though, I'm only choosing from a pool of 22, because I know I'm not one of the scum.

That's not how you "not include whoever's perspective it is from" by the way. That does the opposite

[Well Done]

If this is Lukewarm talking, it's scum who is acting like it's both of their reads, when Dunnstral has played way too many games to use that as a reason for ever scum reading me. This is the main reason I got pinged. The reasoning, not the straight up scum read in itself, because I don't believe that to be genuine.

This is untrue.

[Well Done]

Flavor Leaf calls anybody who pushes him scum.

There's also only been like 3 people, and Catboi has done the same thing with Tictac, Wallflower, and Norwegian with their post, as well as jumping on Bnuuy to get themselves free.

Yeah we're not really townreading Catboi either.

[Well Done]

And do you believe this is something I wouldn't do as town?

Yep

You're being manipulative and that makes you more likely to be scum

[Well Done]

And I'm not even necessarily calling you scum with confidence, just more acknowledging the baseless push, it's why you're pink.

You said I'm scum reading everyone who's called me scum, correct?

Name those people, Well Done.

mastina, Nashville dreams, ourself

Show me where Nashville scum read me.

They are voting for you right now. They've replied with negatives to many of your posts, called you tunneled etc.

[Well Done]

That's not actually true, they moved their vote to monkey, but they were and they did

[Well Done]

And there's a reason it's especially concerning coming from you considering a post you made way back when that you said you probably shouldn't talk about.

I don't believe that this exists.

[Well Done]

Save the Dragons, please explain what Flavor Leaf is talking about.

[Well Done]

Yeah neither do I. He's either making this up or it comes out of like 2018 and is only tangentially related

[Well Done]

I never pushed you to reveal a neighborhood, but you will have to explain what you are talking about with what you actually said

[Well Done]

We didn't know they were in a neighborhood and even if we did it wouldn't matter.

[Well Done]

I'm slightly confused here...players from any alignment can typically be in a neighbourhood no? Well Done could hypothetically read you as scum while also knowing you're in a neighbourhood with someone else, STD or otherwise, unless I've read the rules wrong.

They're pushing a narrative.

You should be pushing for them to put their claims in the main thread. That is also part of their narrative and they won't be able to back it up in the main thread.

[Well Done]

i think hounding monkeyman over the blurred line of what is 'null' and what is 'needs more info' is nitpicking a little

Incorrect. Separating null from lack of info indicates that there's enough to form coherent thoughts. Yet here Monkey can't give even flimsy reasons why there's null versus lack of info, which suggests it's forced/fabricated.

VOTE: Monkey

This was Nashville's last vote.

Nashville wasn't responding negatively to me at all, if anything I think they were responding positively in the sense that they think I'm caught in a tunnel, and trying to help me get out of it.


Defending Catboi does not equal scum reading.

You are actively twisting the narrative here.

They did in 1328 and 1330

[Well Done]

Okay.

I'm definitely not in a secret neighborhood with Klick and Enchant.

If I am killed, do not go after them for secrets I've shared in the non existent neighborhood.

That was all in response to this.

[Well Done]

I don't see that as negative towards me, that looks like they're trying to break me out of a tunnel, which is something townier by them.

But you said you think they're scum, so which is it?

[Well Done]

Everybody should be looking at post 2002 as a scum claim. FL doesn't really think that.

[Well Done]

And do you believe this is something I wouldn't do as town?

Yep

You're being manipulative and that makes you more likely to be scum

yeah, I don't believe for an instant this is a Dunnstral take. That's just a playstyle quirk.

And there's a reason it's especially concerning coming from you considering a post you made way back when that you said you probably shouldn't talk about.

This post is a lie

[Well Done]

We assumed you were in a neighborhood in those posts because you heavily implied that you were in a neighborhood. I don't see what the scum narrative is supposed to be in 2002, or how 2013 changes things.

[Well Done]

k i don't really think either of you are scum

but i bet we'll spend pages arguing about it

You need to explain if 1977 is FL misinterpreting something or if they are outright lying or trying to fit a square into a round hole or what.

And explain how 2002 and subsequent posts on the topic can come from town

[Well Done]

I don't know what happening, but I will put this here!

VOTE: Well Done

Why?

[Well Done]

Acting like I have some overly strong scum read on Nashville.

I'm not actually.

I said you were scumreading people who scumread you and provided evidence to support my argument

All this stuff about the strength of your scumread is your own argument

[Well Done]

he's saying you're saying we shouldn't talk about the neighborhood because

And how is that relevant?

[Well Done]

Dunnstral will have to come in here and vouch for it, of course, since you're in too deep.

I am Dunnstral.

[Well Done]

Let's go back to the beginning of this Save The Dragons

We said that Flavor Leaf is being manipulative and that makes them more likely to be scum
Flavor Leaf responded that the above is especially concerning coming from us considering a post we made earlier. That post was us talking about the neighborhoods earlier.

How is what Flavor Leaf is saying related to what we were saying, and how is it especially concerning?

[Well Done]

Without realizing that this has only happened once this game,

You immediately swapped your read on us to scum as well. I already discussed Nashville dreams, too.

[Well Done]

i dunno i guess he feels like he caught you fishing for info about the neighborhood

that is my interpretation maybe i'm wrong this argument is a little hard to follow i'm trying to play D and D at the same time

Sorry but "I don't know what is going on" isn't good enough anymore when you're actively taking an opposite stance from us. If you want to sit back and do nothing I really don't care, but if you're going to say that Flavor Leaf is town then yeah I expect you to be able to explain why and how. Or even what they're doing. You don't know what they're doing but you have an unshakeable town read on them for unexplained reasons.

[Well Done]

I’m not convinced this FL/WD fight will be anymore helpful for my reads than it already has.
Well good thing i’m going to sleep.

Indeed, feel like we'll wake up to 10 pages in the morning and be none the wiser.

What do you think we should do?

[Well Done]

I don't know what happening, but I will put this here!

VOTE: Well Done

Why?

Because I've got a bad feeling about the both of you, that's why!

Explain

[Well Done]

Anyway I feel like Well Done's argument here is a bit inconsistent. As has been pointed out Nashville has barely if even properly scum-read Flavor. And Flavor's reverse read on Well Done starts to seem reasonable if they are town and believe this read is in fundamentally bad faith.

To be clear, Flavor Leaf's scum reading us (or Mastina, or ND) was not the basis of our scum read. We were scum reading him, we explained why we scum read him, and voted him.

The "he is scum reading people who scum read him" is not the basis of our scum read, and instead was Dunn's reaction to this post.

I've been waiting to get pushed for a while.

My thoughts on that are it's very possible that both scum teams thought it was possible that i was scum on the other, so this looks probably like scum who's finally trying to stop any momentum I have going.

Hi, this is Luke. I am vl/a today, and this is my first (and probably only) post of the day. I will also be away tomorrow and possibly (probably?) Monday.

My scum lean on Flavor Leaf started out about the time that his interaction with Tracer Bullet happened, and then he started pushing Catboi.

I put it to Dunn that Every time I read a post by flavor leaf, I feel like a used car salesman is trying to sell me something. Like he is trying to talk something past me, and it makes me not trust anything that he says.

That is the same time that I started digging into his iso, and what caused me to spot the similar wording he had with catboi.

Spoiler:

Like, they went from making post 911 saying they were not going to hyperpost, to becoming the number 1 top poster in the thread over the course of 12 hours.

[This was actually the thing that I was looking into when I spotted the similarities btw. I was looking to see what caused such a massive change in his mindset and approach to this game.]

I kept having similar reactions (The used carsales man thing) to his postings on a number of topics . Him pre-positioning that certain players could not be eliminated day 1, preemtively commenting a couple times that catboi can and would fake claim upon being ran up, the narrative that he presented that Wallflower was somehow the exact perfect person for catboi to turn to over over say toog or meg, the way that he interacted with the bnuuy wagon, the repeated comments on Mena being pocketed by Catboi, that the "Catboi Cover Crew" was a thing.

And the fact that a lot of these things felt like they were being said on repeat, like he was trying to get the rest of the thread to think about the game on his terms.

And then, last night, I read his scum guide. And that is when it clicked that he was focused on setting up "GameFics" as he called it in his guide. That that was his focus OVER being focused on scum hunting. I sent my thoughts to Dunn, and he agreed, and then he has been the one pushing it because I have not been on.

Anyways. Back to my V/LA

[Well Done]

I'm still 100% in support of day 1 eliming the Beloved Princess. Lowest risk for what could possibly also be scum, PRs are still hidden, scum would be firing blindly, possibly getting a few cross kills.

Is the Malefactor essentially just a 5th scum member for both teams with no ability to communicate with them? Or are they more akin to a Serial Killer? I didn't see anything on the wiki about a Malefactor, but their win con suggests they are aligned with either/both scum factions but don't get a kill of their own. I'd assume in this setup, they are bulletproof. Do they win even if dead as long as town loses?

They don't inherently have a night kill or a bulletproof vest. They do win if dead as long as town loses.

As for where you are going with this, no I don't think that malefactor would claim Beloved Princess on day 1 if that is not their real role. It simply does not benefit them to do so.

[Well Done]

Your last town game was a year and a half ago on an alt, but earlier you argued that Dunnstral should "know" you are town based on meta. Huh.

[Well Done]

Your last town game was a year and a half ago on an alt, but earlier you argued that Dunnstral should "know" you are town based on meta. Huh.

last town game before that game, dont misrep.

I wasn't in "that game"

[Well Done]

Flavor leaf has flooded the thread with a ton of false information to throw up a smoke cloud that makes it hard to argue against everything they are spewing out. Now that the thread is calmer, let's go over all of this.

First point,

Flavor Leaf claims that they were never town reading us

here:

Without realizing that this has only happened once this game,

You immediately swapped your read on us to scum as well. I already discussed Nashville dreams, too.

Swapped my read?

I don't believe I ever was town reading you? Maybe for the section, but it's been days since then.

Actually, if there's a Mafia Miller, they should claim.

Multiball games generally have semi symmetrical setups, not exact, of course, and if there's a Werewolf Miller claim, then there should be a Miller. If there isn't, I say we power tunnel Well Done.

i even said this earlier.

My power tunnel on Well Done if no Miller claim is gone now, btw.

Would be down to do a Not Miller/Miller type thing in the case there is a Scum Miller it forces them to claim it or chance getting rolecop guiltied.

Not Miller, obvi.

but I did say this right after finding out it was random.

Menalque being underestimated just gives them the power to come back harder, and being presented at the mountain top is only good for ego, and it sucks for actually playing the game.

When you can't hear the good, you can't hear the bad. best way to play it.

I think Bnuuy, Sword, and Wallflower are all townie. TB is townie. Menalque is townie.

Wallflower/Menalque are my towniest reads, I would say right now.

Wallflower turned me from my initial call out on them real fast.

this was my town list from a while back.
I don't see Well Done anywhere on here, so no clue what they're saying by "Swapped my read" on them.

Is that true?

First I will point out that we had never said they were townreading us, but Flavor Leaf latched onto that and ran with it. So what they are arguing here isn't even what we were saying, but is instead them trying to change the argument. They weren't scumreading us before we called them scum, at which point they instantly called us scum. And you know what? He was townreading us, anyways. He was at least leaning that way, but he left those parts out of his argument. Here they are:

Wallflower is town. I do not understand people claiming that they looked worse in the 1v1 with catboi.

^^ this.

There’s a few things Well Done has done earlier when I interacted that has me lean town on them back around that time. The “maybe I shouldn’t have asked” thing

My immediate paranoia to spotting this is that they are scum together. That in the scum chat they were talking about the playerlist, and catobi said basically this idea as a worry that pooky would likely end up tunneled on him for this reason.

So, when Flavor Leaf saw TB present a scum reads list of 3 names, and saw both catboi and himself on it, he stepped in to discredit the TB push based on this idea.

oh, I actually like this as a reason.

Yeah, that's a good paranoia. It's not happening, but I do see how you could get there.

Tell ya what, Well Done. If you think we're S/S, let's get on Catboi, and make me play chicken.

No, It's not true.

Second point.

Flavor Leaf has grossly exaggerated the meta connection between Dunnstral and himself.

They have claimed the following:

k i don't really think either of you are scum

but i bet we'll spend pages arguing about it

You need to explain if 1977 is FL misinterpreting something or if they are outright lying or trying to fit a square into a round hole or what.

And explain how 2002 and subsequent posts on the topic can come from town

What am I misinterpreting?

Those are MY thoughts. Dunnstral has a huge amount of meta on me, and I don't believe he thought that coming from a town POV. I can see them using that to push me as scum, sure, but it's not like I don't know how Dunnstral plays.

My main reason for the turn on Well Done was I just really don't believe someone could play in 10+ games with me over the years, and not know that about my personality.

Maybe it's just me being self-centered or what have you, but even if I am I still think that's a stretch.

That 10+ games is me being conservative about it.

Your last town game was a year and a half ago on an alt, but earlier you argued that Dunnstral should "know" you are town based on meta. Huh.

this proves you chose to discredit before even looking at the post, because that was March 26th.

Dunnstral has been playing here for years, and the case was controlling game and being manipulative?

That's just describing me as a person.

Look, I'm not saying Dunnstral's some savant at reading me by any means, but I feel like there's definitely double digits amount of games played, and controlling gamestate/manipulative, catch phrasing repeating things is just come on level of that I'm starting to think there's no way scum would be this dense about it.

Flavor Leaf is very insistent that between himself and Dunnstral there is a double digit amount of games played, and that Dunnstral would know their meta well enough to have a good read on their alignment.

Is that true?

Most recent games:
Tenet - December 2020 - Dunnstral replaced in after Flavor Leaf was already eliminated but before their alignment was revealed.
Innocent Things - December 2020
Pooky vs Flavor Leaf - December 2020 - Flavor leaf is a scum aligned tree stump at the start of the game instead of a player slot
Xenoblade 2 Mafia - November 2020

There's more. Saying 10+ games is either true or close enough. However, with no games in the past 1.5 years, and some of the most recent games being games where no determination of alignment was to be had or it was skewed in some other way, I'd say

It's partially true

Point 3.

Flavor Leaf claims that we knew they were in a neighborhood, and that we pushed them to get them to reveal information about it.

They do so here:

Meh, I'll just claim it.

STD and I are in a neighborhood together. For reasons, we're not gonna bring this up further.

Well Done already was aware of this possibility since them and I had a moment way earlier in the game.

This is another reason I believe it's higher possibility of Well Done scum here since they're pushing to possibly get me to out more information.

I never pushed you to reveal a neighborhood, but you will have to explain what you are talking about with what you actually said

That's the reason you did, if you are scum. I guess I could be wrong, and maybe you just didn't think much of it. But you were actively the one to notice, and it feels like you're using weak reasoning because you wanted to get that out of me to be sure because you were still confused.

I am town. Based on how I've been playing, scum are actively going to try to steer me to either misfade someone or stop momentum. This aint my first time at the rodeo. I'm a magnet, and it's one of the best ways I catch scum by bringing them to push me.

Actually, if there's a Mafia Miller, they should claim.

Multiball games generally have semi symmetrical setups, not exact, of course, and if there's a Werewolf Miller claim, then there should be a Miller. If there isn't, I say we power tunnel Well Done.

getting it on the new page so it doesnt get lost at the bottom.

I have been on the look out for the mafia miller claim as well, but wasn't going to say anything until everyone had checked in. Will share thoughts on the implication of no miller claim if no one has claimed it by the time everyone has checked in

This is probably an all scum hood. Sigh.

I have 3 PT's. None of them are the scum ones, and now that I know the randomization of it all, i'm so paranoid of this game

Given the mechanics of the last game, I am surprised that there are 3.

Also curious if this works out as an IC claim for you?

Flavor Leaf, do the hood mechanics make you mod proven not Mafia to 1 group of players, and mod proven not werewolf to another group of players?

Thinking about it while cleaning my kitchen, and I think that I probably should not have asked my prior question. Disregard

lol

Hey Malcom!

Apparently this game also has a lot of hoods. Try not to slip again

Well Done was actively aware of something deeper I was doing here, and now they're digging.

If I was in a neighborhood, would y'all wanna know, or would it be best to hold off on that for now

Also, Well Done said it was in response to this, when this was already said in the game

They're actively twisting the narrative.

Is that true?

This needs further context, take a look at these posts:

If I was in a neighborhood, would y'all wanna know, or would it be best to hold off on that for now

Okay.

I'm definitely not in a secret neighborhood with Klick and Enchant.

If I am killed, do not go after them for secrets I've shared in the non existent neighborhood.

It's clear that what Flavor Leaf quoted in post 2002 is talking about what he said in posts 163 and 171.

Later, they post:

by the way, just gonna clear it up right now.

I'm not in a Neighborhood with Klick or Enchant. I was telling the truth when I said 'definitely not in a neighborhood with Klick or Enchant', and I just said the first 2 names that talked. But yeah, if you go back and look at that time there, I never said I was in it with one, just let everyone assume I was to see what people would do.

I got my MonkeyMan town read from that.

I've been lightweight trying to pull a nightkill, lightweight not.

Which is them retracting their claim. Which we saw.

So at this point, there is no reason for us to believe that Flavor Leaf is secretly in a neighborhood with Save the Dragons and one other person as they claim. They know that. They don't have a real reason to think that we think that they are in a neighborhood, or that we are fishing for info.

No, it's not true.

[Well Done]

Or at least, the town side of it

What would you change about the scum side of it?

[Well Done]

<snip>

This is a good post! It also looks to me like Nashville Dreams weren't able to maintain internal consistency and forgot who they were supposed to be sussing by confusing Monkeyman with catboi.

I'll keep reading, but based on the most recent VC and scrolling through the last few pages, it doesn't look like the wagon on them developed much further, which is kind of odd, because I feel like this is more solid that anything else that's happened so far this game.

Also:

Interesting how I postulate that voting Catboi might be required for the game state causes us to be a counter to catboi. This definitely means I need to reset my catboi read when I catch up.

The only difference I see is who is doing the voting. If it was people familiar with me, I would lean towards scum saving catboi. Yet Butter and Wallflower are not familiar with me.

[Well Done]

Didn't mean to say it addresses it. I didn't understand what 2070 is saying or how she got to that point, and that post got buried in the moment. I think that 1705 makes a good point that should be responded to.

[Well Done]

UNVOTE:
Alright time to lock down and get into this nonsense

People I don't want to eliminate today

butterchurn
Nashville Dreams
Save The Dragons
Wallflower
Well Done
Menalque

People I think are fairly likely to flip scum

Toogeloo
catboi
MalcolmTucker
bnuuy

That's my preliminary assessment from kinda sorta skimming for the past two days. I want better reads than this.

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Sword of Ducks

Save The Dragons

Tracer Bullet
MonkeyMan576

Bnuuy

Malcolm

WallFlower

Menalque

Norwegian
Cat Scratch Fever

Toogeloo

MegaZumarill
Enchant

Butterchurn

Tictac
Klick

The Keeper

Well Done

Nashville Dreams

Mastina
cassowary

catboi

I am vibing with this reads list

I colored Klick's last reads list onto this list that they agree with and don't understand why they agree with it. Some explanation would be nice.

[Well Done]

Klick is even voting Bnuuy right now

[Well Done]

I have insomnia, and I lay in bed thinking about mafia games. Its a problem. So I am back anyways. ~Luke

pedit: a lot of posts appear to have been made while I was making this. Like a lot.

Flavor Leaf is not engaging in good faith.

I've been waiting to get pushed for a while.

My thoughts on that are it's very possible that both scum teams thought it was possible that i was scum on the other, so this looks probably like scum who's finally trying to stop any momentum I have going.

This post is one that I think betrays a mindset that is not grounded in sorting us based on our push, but to instead frame the push as scummy.

If you stop to think about this post for a second, it falls apart. He thinks that it is "very possible" that scum could look at his play, and genuinely think that he is scum for the other team. And based on that thought, us suspecting him looks like scum turning on him.

What part of this logic precludes town from thinking that he is scum here? What reason would scum be thinking that he is scum here, but town wouldn't be? It doesn't exist. But, he does not seem to think about that, because he is not trying to sort us here, his immediate reaction is to discredit a push. He started with the idea to call us scum for pushing him, then came up with a reason - that scum would think he was scum.

~~~~~

Our accusation, is that Flavor Leaf is approaching this game with a primary mindset of manipulation, and setting up narratives. And that seems more important in his approach to this game, then scum hunting/eliminating scum. Flavor Leaf consistently has responded to this as though we are saying that he does not have stated scum reads / is not scum hunting. Which, is clearly twisting our point.

Spoiler:

scum need to find other scum too, so this doesn't really have much base

If you want to act like I haven't given my thoughts on nearly every single slot on the game bar a few, like The Keeper or your slot

Well Done says I'm not looking for scum, but I believe I have the most layered reads out of anyone in this game

~~~~

Some examples of what I mean:

Wallflower

This makes me feel like Catboi has done well as scum with the social dynamics aspect of the game, and smoothly talked his way through the wagon on them and chose to turn the momentum on Wallflower, the easiest wagon to get going.

To start with, I disagree on a basic level that Wallflower was the easiest wagon to start up at the time. But, I think that there are two narratives that Flavor Leaf is trying to drive forward here

1)It felt more like Flavor Leaf was trying to further his 1v1 with catboi, by calling everything that catboi did scummy. Firmly establishing a FL against Catboi narrative.
2) He is simultaneously trying to seed the idea that he was solely the person that would defend Wallflower.

is it the easiest wagon to get going?

The easiest in the sense it was most likely to get going presumably from that situation.

Others might be able to get votes, but who all besides me was going to protect WallFlower, and I even doubt that I was being considered to defend WallFlower here.

Which, again, is not even true, as I don't think that wallflower was particularly suspected at the time, and we at least had them down as town - and were even discussing stepping in front of the catboi push in our hydra chat- but elected to let the two of them talk more before we said anything (and then Flavor Leaf beat us to it)

And pushing into that idea that he is the town savior, he keeps going with

me right now trying to save as many townies as i can

And the slimier one to me being

Menalque can take the brunt and blame here if Bnuuy's town.

yeah nope I don't like this

Bunny, I saved your wagon.

You just dont like my ego, and I understand. I get it, that one's on me.

He isn't just trying to get a scum wagon through, or to stop his town reads from dying, but he also wants wallflower, and bnuuy, and others that he is the person who saved them.

~~~

I also noticed it with the repeated refrain that mena is pocketed. I do not think that it ever had a chance to sway Mena the way that it was being done, and I feel like FL had to know that. These posts never sway Mena:

Spoiler:

Catboi > Nashville

Gonna have to give you the big ole wrong answer gameshow buzzer on the first one, but I guess I’ll listen on Nashville

Nah, you pocketed. I already talked about that.

I think Menalque just lives in Catboi's pocket, and did what he could to get pressure off of catboi. I think Menalque jumped in by themselves, for the most part.

So either catboi or wallflower is the correct elim for today.

Am I gonna have to go back to using the big red “X”s instead of saying buzzer noise

yo, you're so pocketed.

@Menalque - the more you do this the more it makes me feel Catboi is scum and you're pocketed.

Can we lim bnuuy now?

VOTE: bnuuy

Do you think this vote feels easier because of bnuuy‘a lack of recent thread presence?

yeah that was a bad vote, but i think he's trying to protect their pocketer catboi, so i dont know how to feel about it.

Catboi > Nashville

Gonna have to give you the big ole wrong answer gameshow buzzer on the first one, but I guess I’ll listen on Nashville

Nah, you pocketed. I already talked about that.

And if he is not saying it to sway mena, why is he saying it?
1) It keeps forcing the catboi vs flavor leaf narrative like before.
2) it discredits Mena's read on catboi

[Well Done]

What part of this logic precludes town from thinking that he is scum here? What reason would scum be thinking that he is scum here, but town wouldn't be? It doesn't exist. But, he does not seem to think about that, because he is not trying to sort us here,

his immediate reaction is to discredit a push

. He started with the idea to call us scum for pushing him, then came up with a reason - that scum would think he was scum.

this is why Well Done's entire push is garbage because they keep insisting I was pushing them for that reason when I've stated multiple times it wasn't.

It just doesn't fit as cleanly for them otherwise.

I am aware that you have since then shifted to a different angle. I'm specifically talking about your first post upon seeing our vote.

[Well Done]

Catboi vs Flavor Leaf is also not a thing.

I'm pushing Catboi. I am not fighting with Catboi.

I did not mean it as fighting. I meant it in terms of this, from your guide on how you play scum:

Spoiler:

Mastina takes action by actively pushing Votato, and starts coming across as one of the main people pushing him, which will help her when he flips Red, setting her up for some major Town Clout

Gamefic 1: Mastina’s main Red push all game was Votato, who flipped Red.

With it being multiball, I am aware that that could come from you genuinely think that he is scum, and still wanting the same effect.

[Well Done]

I'm very aware Well Done is likely just actively throwing NAI cases out there to annoy me. I'll try to contain myself a bit more.

This is not something that I would ever do, even if I was scum.

[Well Done]

Literally... the exact gamefic thing that I quoted, but with you and catboi swapped in.

If you are scum, and catboi is not on your team, then you could genuinely be scum reading him. (I am also still entertaining the idea of the two of you as scum together, but not interested in that discussion currently because I don't think that anyone will like my thinking on it lmao -- but that would be a 1 for 1 swap)

You then have set up the CCC who you think must have scum in it, to then turn to if and when catboi flips red.

Like, that is why I quoted those specifics examples about mastina, because they were what I was pointing at
~~~~

And then the narratives you built around wallflower, bnuuy, and the others as the person saving them would be serving as pocket attempts.

[Well Done]

post 0, Flavor Leaf"]

Mastina

Flavor Leaf takes action by actively pushing

Votato

catboi, and starts coming across as one of the main people pushing him, which will help her when he flips Red, setting her up for some major Town Clout

Gamefic 1:

Mastina

Flavor Leaf’s main Red push all game was

Votato

catboi, who flipped Red.

~~~~~~

But like, I don't even think of the game in the terms that you do. I don't know that I can map out what you are asking in the terms that you are asking them

I read your posts, and they felt slimy like a used car sales man, and I didn't trust you. I spotted an apparent mindset shift when approaching the game that I did not trust. I spotted manipulative looking posts that I didn't trust. And I spotted posts that looked like they were buddying. And I didn't trust any of them either.

And then I read your guide, and I felt like I was reading an explanation for each of the things that I felt about your play

[Well Done]

Like, maybe I am not using your terms the way that you would use your terms. But, I don't actually care. I think you are scum.

[Well Done]

You are posting nothing but theories, which is fine, it's Day 1. But even if you think I'm scum, you have no choice but to accept they are theories.

The game of mafia is built on theories. Known information is the exception, not the rule for this game.

For anyone wondering, yes, you can tack on the words "I am theorizing" "I think" "My guess" etc, etc, can be tacked on to the beginning of every post that I have made.

But, Flavor Leaf being scum is my most confident theory about this game at this moment, and therefore, is the person I most want to kill, and therefore I presented it.

[Well Done]

I didn't go about it the best way, but my posts towards you are there to help you trust me, and see where I'm coming from with all of it.

If you are town, what do you need from me to help you see that I am town?

Gonna be real, your reaction to our push did nothing but make me believe you to be scum even more.

(from the OMGUS, to feeling like you were misrepping the basis of our scum read, to you trying to prove you were not even town reading us before, trying to frame it that this read is never one that Dunn would have)

I'm gonna go try once again to sleep, and look at this again later.

[Well Done]

I didn't have an answer to what you asked.

[Well Done]

And even if I did, I don't think that it would ever be useful to give.

If I tell you exactly what would make me town read you, then you doing that can never make me town read you lol

[Well Done]

But, I was lying in bed 3 hours ago before I made the poor life decision to get out of bed and log onto this site. I am gonna attempt the sleep once again.

[Well Done]

Neither player is too interested in the game. Inactive, lazy takes and easy shades. Etc.

I have both posted more than you and certainly had more thought out takes than you. For the record, I was stuck in a high-intensity game offsite when this started that severely diminished my ability to focus on this game which is why my posting did lapse for period of time. I hadn't intended it to be that way, this game just kind of filled by surprise when I was signed for other one. I had assumed being MS and this having a long deadline I could take it easy for at fisrt. Regardless, that's done now and I can focus my full attention on the game.

I think Norwegianboy is referring to the two heads of the nasheville hydra

[Well Done]

Well Done is a goddamn innocent child for 2111, that is not a post Luke-scum makes

That was a dunn post

Whoops again

[Well Done]

I could do FL if that’s what you’re getting at cb

Bro, like come on. It’s Day fucking 1.

This is a slimy post.

[Well Done]

I think that we would be down for a Nashville wagon, but I'll wait for Dunn to come back before moving the vote

[Well Done]

I could do FL if that’s what you’re getting at cb

Bro, like come on. It’s Day fucking 1.

This is a slimy post.

No, you're just ignorant to context.

And I dont give a fuck if i'm slimy. I am still town.

We have to kill someone on day fucking 1

This is an ate post

[Well Done]

The "this" being 2307

[Well Done]

@Keeper, who is your number 1 choice for elimination today. And who are a couple people you would be open to compromising to

[Well Done]

Scp, can you confirm if it is possible for the malefactor to exist in the monastery?

It was not allowed in during the original running.

[Well Done]

also from the OP post: "Alignment assignment and role design had a random element; as a result, the setup may break certain common assumptions, such as the idea that a neighborhood cannot be composed entirely of members of the same scumteam. If you find yourself thinking the mod would never make some particular role town or scum, you are probably wrong."

Jesus christ.

Yes. I've read the rules.

(Frustration being less at YOU saying this, and more that this is about the 5th time someone has said this, even tho8gh it does not influence my point/question)

[Well Done]

I liked catboi's catchup and posting recently a lot

In 2261 move Norwegianboy up to Null and then I'd probably be willing to eliminate everyone else in the Scum reads

[Well Done]

Spoiler:

With the idea that a Masonry/Monkery were randomized, I rolled 50 randomizations. In these cases, it's not possible for both scum to be in it, so was doing the randoms out of 19.

if there is those roles here, of course.



If Malefactor can be in them.

21 times no scum
18 times 1 scum, no malefactor.
4 times 1 scum, and malefactor
3 times 2 scum, no malefactor
4 times, just malefactor

if malefactor cant be in them

25 times no scum
22 times 1 scum
3 times 2 scum


I don't know what type of merit this has, but it does show a higher possibility of all townies than i would normally suspect, albeit not enough to clear anyone in it.

It's basically 50/50 if scum is in a Masonry/Monkery.

With the idea that a Masonry/Monkery were randomized, I rolled 50 randomizations. In these cases, it's not possible for both scum to be in it, so was doing the randoms out of 19.

if there is those roles here, of course.



If Malefactor can be in them.

21 times no scum
18 times 1 scum, no malefactor.
4 times 1 scum, and malefactor
3 times 2 scum, no malefactor
4 times, just malefactor

if malefactor cant be in them

25 times no scum
22 times 1 scum
3 times 2 scum


I don't know what type of merit this has, but it does show a higher possibility of all townies than i would normally suspect, albeit not enough to clear anyone in it.

It's basically 50/50 if scum is in a Masonry/Monkery.

Was this for a 3-person masonry/abbey (a more fitting term for the monk group)?
You don’t need to run a simulation to determine odds of at least one scum in a masonry/abbey, you just need to use conditional logic for each step (if a scum is put in during one step, the next doesn’t need to be run)

Relying on percentages is moot because we don't know if everyone was an opportunity for each role. Some roles may be locked to a certain faction (i.e. A seer and an alpha werewolf exist, seer can be any alignment but alpha is forced to be ww)

That said those percentages are for a 3 person monastery or masonry correct?

We thought Meg might have been a monk due to being the only one to call it by its correct name early

[Well Done]

I liked catboi's catchup and posting recently a lot

In 2261 move Norwegianboy up to Null and then I'd probably be willing to eliminate everyone else in the Scum reads

So:

Nashville Dreams (Titus & Malakittens)
MegAzumarill
bnuuy
tictac
Enchant
Flavor Leaf

Would kill

[Well Done]

Scp, can you confirm if it is possible for the malefactor to exist in the monastery?

It was not allowed in during the original running.

To follow this question up in a way that won't get shut down with the "But the OP Says Random" line.

Here was the SAME RULE in the op of the original game

This setup was created in part using a random element. If you find yourself thinking the mod would never make some particular role town or scum, you are probably wrong. This game may have the potential to ignore common setup design maxims. For example, if I rolled a neighborhood composed entirely of members of the same scumteam, I would not have a problem with that, given that I have now warned you about the possibility.

And then, here is Ceph telling us that despite that rule in the op, the malefactor was excluded.

Subject: Not Quite Normal -- The Monastery

The malefactor cannot be a monk.

-----

I am literally asking if the rules of monestary in this game are the same as the last game.

If they are the same, then spc can stop considering a malefactor possibility for FL. If they are different, I would like to know that information.

[Well Done]

Spoiler:

With the idea that a Masonry/Monkery were randomized, I rolled 50 randomizations. In these cases, it's not possible for both scum to be in it, so was doing the randoms out of 19.

if there is those roles here, of course.



If Malefactor can be in them.

21 times no scum
18 times 1 scum, no malefactor.
4 times 1 scum, and malefactor
3 times 2 scum, no malefactor
4 times, just malefactor

if malefactor cant be in them

25 times no scum
22 times 1 scum
3 times 2 scum


I don't know what type of merit this has, but it does show a higher possibility of all townies than i would normally suspect, albeit not enough to clear anyone in it.

It's basically 50/50 if scum is in a Masonry/Monkery.

With the idea that a Masonry/Monkery were randomized, I rolled 50 randomizations. In these cases, it's not possible for both scum to be in it, so was doing the randoms out of 19.

if there is those roles here, of course.



If Malefactor can be in them.

21 times no scum
18 times 1 scum, no malefactor.
4 times 1 scum, and malefactor
3 times 2 scum, no malefactor
4 times, just malefactor

if malefactor cant be in them

25 times no scum
22 times 1 scum
3 times 2 scum


I don't know what type of merit this has, but it does show a higher possibility of all townies than i would normally suspect, albeit not enough to clear anyone in it.

It's basically 50/50 if scum is in a Masonry/Monkery.

Was this for a 3-person masonry/abbey (a more fitting term for the monk group)?
You don’t need to run a simulation to determine odds of at least one scum in a masonry/abbey, you just need to use conditional logic for each step (if a scum is put in during one step, the next doesn’t need to be run)

Relying on percentages is moot because we don't know if everyone was an opportunity for each role. Some roles may be locked to a certain faction (i.e. A seer and an alpha werewolf exist, seer can be any alignment but alpha is forced to be ww)

That said those percentages are for a 3 person monastery or masonry correct?

We thought Meg might have been a monk due to being the only one to call it by its correct name early

Note from Luke (original post was Dunn's)

In this series of posts, with FL giving the wrong name, bnuuy correcting it to a different wrong name, and then Meg commenting with the correct name (and not defaulting to either name already said) I stopped thinking that FL was a monk, and started thinking that Meg was one.

[Well Done]

You hard claim that it can be in the monastery in this run?

[Well Done]

Noted. Thank you.

[Well Done]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89094

tictac is town in the linked game and seems much more forthcoming with reads in that game than in this one.

In this game they scumread catboi and townread Menalque and talked about tracer bullet being scum and then what else?

[Well Done]

If the implication is that klick goes rogue and does dumb shit that's outrageous

usually when I do play scum I tend to eventually go rouge on my teammates and do dumb shit that gets me killed
I don't tend to work well in team settings honestly

Why are you voting for me?

[Well Done]

butter/tictac/klick/bunny - ww
enchant/mena/cass/catboi - maf

this is what i reached in the monastery. mena could swap out for one of my other PoE reads - I think they are most likely malefactor.

We are town reading butter. Dunn had Cass down as town a long time ago, but they are definitely a slot that has fallen throughthe cracks for me, and we have not actually discussed that slot in a long time. But otherwise this list is largely in our scum to null zone, although i have no interest in team solving day 1.

Why are MegA and Nashville town here?

[Well Done]

I am the almighty master of scum

Can confirm. I believe std has a 100% scum win rate for games that I was also in. This is clearly a large enough sample size for me to confidently make this claim.

[Well Done]

catboi mind controlled SCP 682 into voting for Wall Flower

[Well Done]

butter/tictac/klick/bunny - ww
enchant/mena/cass/catboi - maf

this is what i reached in the monastery. mena could swap out for one of my other PoE reads - I think they are most likely malefactor.

We are town reading butter. Dunn had Cass down as town a long time ago, but they are definitely a slot that has fallen throughthe cracks for me, and we have not actually discussed that slot in a long time. But otherwise this list is largely in our scum to null zone, although i have no interest in team solving day 1.

Why are MegA and Nashville town here?

@Scp

[Well Done]

VOTE: Nashville Dreams

We have been liking catboi's postings more ever since he made the post about getting fully into the game, and after talking it over, we actively do not want catboi to be the day 1 elimination.

[Well Done]

collective pact to completely ignore FL till day 2

~L

[Well Done]

I quoted that before reading how heated FL got in response. Would not have done so if I had read that part already

[Well Done]

re:Enchant.

Enchant plays this way as both alignments in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?t=89363&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Here is his iso from our most recent game (town!me and town!dunn and scum!mala were all in there with town!enchant) - and he was the first person that we killed.

And like, we killed him for similar reasons to what I am seeing from SPC

Enchant does not do absolutely nothing when they are town. This is how they play as scum.

And I agreed, and pushed enchant by comparing him to a scum game I had seen him in. So, both heads of this hydra just walked out of a game where we both lead the miselim on him.

Enchant is unreadable lmao

[Well Done]

I have reached the point where spc 180'd on enchant. lol

[Well Done]

yall look at MegA's ISO btw

tell me with a straight face that ISO is towny.

...

I seem to remember someone asking multiple times why Meg was off your scum list, and getting no response.

Spoiler:

It was me

[Well Done]

enchant is readable.

i do think they have pushed their own reads early on in the way they can and are engaged in their own way.

its like u have to try to hop into their mind and see how they think.

if you think its the same, you aren't trying hard enough to get into enchant's shoes and see their thought processes IMHO

The sentence that he was unreadable was worded in such a way as a joke. This was indicated by the "lmao" immediately after that sentence.

The actual meat of what I was saying is that your case against enchant looked very similar to the case that just led to a miselimed of a town enchant.

Not currently looking for tips from you on how to read players. Thanks!

[Well Done]

Does Town have to eliminate the Malefactor? If all scum are eliminated except the Malefactor, do they just lose?

Last run had the Malefactor endgamed as the last living anti-town

[Well Done]

<snip>

This is a good post! It also looks to me like Nashville Dreams weren't able to maintain internal consistency and forgot who they were supposed to be sussing by confusing Monkeyman with catboi.

I'll keep reading, but based on the most recent VC and scrolling through the last few pages, it doesn't look like the wagon on them developed much further, which is kind of odd, because I feel like this is more solid that anything else that's happened so far this game.

Also:

Interesting how I postulate that voting Catboi might be required for the game state causes us to be a counter to catboi. This definitely means I need to reset my catboi read when I catch up.

The only difference I see is who is doing the voting. If it was people familiar with me, I would lean towards scum saving catboi. Yet Butter and Wallflower are not familiar with me.

Would like for Nashville Dreams to acknowledge posts 1705, 2109, 2113/2116 at some point

[Well Done]

I'm starting to feel ill so I must question my reads from this morning.

Can someone briefly give me points where they feel I'm wrong besides catboi is too town to be town?

~Titus

I'm starting to feel ill so I must question my reads from this morning.

Can someone briefly give me points where they feel I'm wrong besides catboi is too town to be town?

~Titus

You showed up late. You need to look at that bnuuy wagon.

I will but I feel that it's another counter to catboi. That makes me think town before reading.

However, I am open to being wrong. It's also getting to the point where there are so many counters that catboi may need to be eliminated as catboi couldn't live until elo.

~Titus

If I am active, I can and do come up with solutions regardless of alignment. I do what I can.

Ftr, Mala was in favor of catboi town. The number of counters expressed is telling. Later today, I intend to compare if it's the same players given my wagon took off after debating going with Mala's read due to game circumstances.

~Titus

*catboi scum. Typo.

This also doesn't make sense to me

[Well Done]

The only difference I see is who is doing the voting. If it was people familiar with me, I would lean towards scum saving catboi. Yet Butter and Wallflower are not familiar with me.

If I am active, I can and do come up with solutions regardless of alignment. I do what I can.

Ftr, Mala was in favor of catboi town. The number of counters expressed is telling. Later today, I intend to compare if it's the same players given my wagon took off after debating going with Mala's read due to game circumstances.

~Titus

Doesn't 2071 imply that Titus already did what they are saying they intend to do later today - compare the players

[Well Done]

This also doesn't make sense to me

Because in 1675 Titus seems to have a townread on catboi. In 1684 is the weird switch in perspective, both posts coming from Titus.

Then in 3063 Titus passes it off as Mala being the one who scumread catboi, and pointed to "the number of counters expressed". Except that all seems to have been from Titus herself, not from Mala. I also think that this post forgets that they already did the work in 2071

[Well Done]

Spoiler:

Cat Scratch Fever, Megaza, Enchant hammer

means 11 votes are ready for Nashville.

I'm sure players like Menalque/SPC will join it.

WallFlower said they're not town reading Nashville and was there earlier.

Toogeloo and tictac as well.

This is not a wagon on scum, and if it is, they're Malefactor.


@Nashville - time to claim probably. E-4 in a large game.

You’re right that I would vote Nashville if I needed to

yep.

And that's why it's a wagon on town.

cat scratch was already on it, so i said 11 when it should have been 10.

but let's do the math.

23 minus Nashville, that's 22 players.

with those players listed, that's 15. If Menalque/SPC arent willing to vote there, then yeah, its still lower, but only if they stand by that, which I don't know where they stand, but i can see both of them voting there just to end.

I would likely end up voting despite my incessant town reads, and then somehow get blamed for it anyways because I generally just vote to end the day and get it over with even if it's a town read if i think there's merit to move on.

16 players that means are willing to vote Nashville.

Hmmm....I wonder why that is.

It's because both scum sides are willing to vote there.

Mastina seemed to town read there, I believe? I could be wrong.

So there is absolutely no chance that Nashville flips Group Scum here.

You could say that "SCUM ARE BUSSING"

with how hard I've been pushing Catboi and people's possible willingness to vote Catboi if it sped up?

Nope. Catboi would have more pressure outside of the mains.

Malcolm idk where they're at regarding the wagon.


So yeah, that's 16 out of 22 minimum votes on Nashville here.

this does not happen here if Nashville was scum full stop.

I hate this post. Like the logic behind it.

There was so much handwaving to get to that 16 out of 22 players willing to vote for Nashville = Nashville must be town.

1) Out of the 22 other players, only 3 would know that ND is scum if ND is scum. So already, that number fits in the gap.

2) It grouped in the people who are saying "ND is kinda scummy, but I am gonna vote someone else who I think is better" along side the people who are actively advocating for the ND elimination. Which, to be clear, is a very different stance - which totally leaves room for partners who don't think they can get by hard defending the slot, and would rather hope for something else to go through.

3) He counted Enchant, who said that he would hammer any wagon that got to E-1

4) He looped in himself, despite in the same post saying he has "incessant town reads" on the slot.

-----

So, all in all, this post is saying that if you add together [the people currently voting the wagon] + [the people voting different wagons, but not explicitly town reading the slot] + [People who have no stated read on the slot, but are hammer happy] + [People who explicitly town read the slot, but would vote there solely to keep the day from ending with no elimination] = then you get SIXTEEN PEOPLE !! So sus!!

------

This post means nothing other then Flavor Leaf does not want the elimination to go through, and is trying to scare people away from it. So, everyone feel free to note that Flavor Leaf has a stated town read on the slot before deciding whether you want the wagon to go through, because I think that that is all I gained from reading this.

[Well Done]

I guess an equal valid reading of that is that there are too few people with stated town reads on ND --- but, given scum in this game having 3 partners in 22 players, is equally useless information.

Yes, this game has more scum then normal 9/23. But that is when you look at the whole scum count.

Each team is at 4/23. Which is actually lower than an average game, meaning each individual scum team has much less influence and leverage.

[Well Done]

Wait is the half who should know you, Dunnstral?

Because if the half who should know you is Dunnstral, then the style of your signature + it being Dunnstral who should know you + your posting style, would all point me towards you being someone who has hydra'd with Dunnstral reasonably recently.

And if you are that player then we should be turbo-limming you because this is 200% that player's scumgame.

I don't think that they are the person you are thinking that they are here.

The expected recognition was not because of a hydra with Dunn - and I (Luke) was actually the one to figure it out.

[Well Done]

They have nearly 200 posts, discarding Titus's off-hydra posts.

Today I learned 105 + 16 = nearly 200

[Well Done]

@Catboi

I have read through Wallflower's 3558 multiple times, and it frankly looks pretty bog standard, and I really don't know why it would have tilted you the way that it did. Just, an outsider's opinion on the interaction, and maybe you need to walk away and then look at it again when less invested.

~~~~

As for the situation in reference to Catboi's alignment.

I will say, that I don't think that that tilt out would have been a good tactical choice to make as scum. I don't think that catboi was in much danger of being the day 1 elim anymore. His wagon has shrank, and ND's has grown and ND feeling like the inevitable elim at this point with people being less inclined to try and strike up a new wagon, and desire for the day to end growing. The tilt out, if anything would draw more attention back to his slot, further tunnel wallflower, and possibly get people on board for his elimination on a policy elim basis [from my own pov, my gut reaction to it was to think that I no longer cared if he died, compared to being ready to fight against his elimination before it happened] As such, I feel that regardless of alignment, this was a genuine tilt out - not a tactical choice.

I have witnessed catboi get quite tilted as both alignments. So personally, I am probably gonna pretend it didn't happen, and sort from there.

~~~~

VOTE: enchant
there's a lot of ate flying around, and it's not fun.
consider this my best effort to make sure nobody who does that gets to eat cake, where "cake" is getting the yeet they want.
also it's a decent yeet.

could also go 4 monkey who has hc coasted since shaking the early wagon.

And I also hate this attempt to use Catboi's tilt out as a reason to not kill ND or catboi.

[Well Done]

I believe that Keeper is town. Specifically after this string of posts.

Spoiler:

You know something, I cannot be arsed reading this steaming pile of a game.

I left on 106, and I bet I can call it now that most of it is FP and SCP clashing.

Screw the references.

@Mod can Malefactor be in a Monastery or Neighbourhood?

I know who my sus for malefactor is, and now they're being malefactored out of my reads.

Beyond that, reading up from my last post wasn't far off.

Wow I get to ignore a literal 5th of this games posts now...

I don't see scum doing the malefactor hunting bit out here in the thread like that. It's not an action that I think they would think to do to get town read.

I imagine there is discussion on who it could be in scum chats, and I could see scum doing it to discredit someone.

But Keeper did it both in the thread, but also subtly / without attempting to convince others or divert people away from listening to flavor leaf. The comment about a "5th of this games posts" meaning they thought flavor leaf was the malefactor was missed by Dunn when reading through the thread normally until I pointed it out for him to see the posts in succession in their iso.

This feels more like town working through their thoughts on the malefactor then scum action to me.

[Well Done]

Is there anyone who thinks the VCs are misleading? I don't want to spend time on the wagon analysis only to then have people say shit is misleading when I have an hour a day tops.

~Titus

I feel like the vote counts for this game are coming less frequently then other games I have been in, meaning that there is a lot of movement that you will not see reflected in the vote counts.

[Well Done]

I believe that Keeper is town.

been there said that

Your post is what actually reminded me to call out my reason for town reading them lol

Not to toot my own horn, but I think that my reason is more convincing to other people, because your reasons looked like it was because they were calling out people pushing you. Which tends to be more influential to the person who is being shielded then it is to outsiders look at it. So, I didn't want people to just dismiss your read on that basis when I had a completely different reason to think so.

[Well Done]

<snip>

This is a good post! It also looks to me like Nashville Dreams weren't able to maintain internal consistency and forgot who they were supposed to be sussing by confusing Monkeyman with catboi.

I'll keep reading, but based on the most recent VC and scrolling through the last few pages, it doesn't look like the wagon on them developed much further, which is kind of odd, because I feel like this is more solid that anything else that's happened so far this game.

Also:

Interesting how I postulate that voting Catboi might be required for the game state causes us to be a counter to catboi. This definitely means I need to reset my catboi read when I catch up.

The only difference I see is who is doing the voting. If it was people familiar with me, I would lean towards scum saving catboi. Yet Butter and Wallflower are not familiar with me.

Would like for Nashville Dreams to acknowledge posts 1705, 2109, 2113/2116 at some point

@ND

[Well Done]

I even added links to the posts for you <3

[Well Done]

wanna know whats really annoying

those who are pushing "us" as a lurker there is other players who have little posts as well and aren't having fire placed under their ass

{tictac, casso, toog, MegA, enchant, klick, mastina & CSF}

there's a few more, but whatever.

I'm at the end of page 113.

To be clear, we are not voting you for lurking.

The lurking does not help in anything, but we are voting your slot specifically for Titus's inconsistency pointed out before.

I innitially asked about it here

I'm starting to feel ill so I must question my reads from this morning.

Can someone briefly give me points where they feel I'm wrong besides catboi is too town to be town?

~Titus

You showed up late. You need to look at that bnuuy wagon.

I will but I feel that it's another counter to catboi. That makes me think town before reading.

However, I am open to being wrong. It's also getting to the point where there are so many counters that catboi may need to be eliminated as catboi couldn't live until elo.

~Titus

Can you walk me through this post Titus?

You seem to be saying that it is yet another wagon designed to be a counter wagon to Catboi, but I thought you had catboi down as town. Do you think that scum are repeatedly setting up counterwagons on town!catboi? Or do you think that the counterwagons are coming from town? or?

Although Butter's 1705 was a better expressed version of that

Spoiler:

It's already been mentioned, but this progression makes no sense:

I’m gonna have to think over my thoughts on Catboi.

On one hand, they are definitely a smooth talker, but they’re pinging me like crazy, especially that big post.

They’re saying a lot of things that are like…true, good statements, but not necessarily townie statements.

I also don’t personally like the Wallflower push because I think myself, Norwegian, and Mega are the worst ones on the wagon, but Wallflower has the most to go against and likely the least pushback.

I also see Wallflower as super townie, even if Catboi isn’t scum.

I still don't get why Catboi is pinging you, especially given the wagon states.

Well Flavor leaf is not pinging town, and they aren't town reading each other evidently.

It'd be more concerning if Flavor Leaf was pinging town right now.

stop pocket

I was saying this as a joke before, but when I look back on it, and the way people react towards Catboi, this is exactly what I feel they were doing.

In addition to me pointing out why it would be beneficial for them to be in the spotlight for at the time they were, they have key figures defending them without even being able to reason why they are defending them.


Like Menalque and Nashville. And Cat Scratch also said it was lazy.

Which is interesting to me, because it’s being cut down.

I'm stating it now. Catboi is telling honest truths, scumhunting and they keep being resurrected as wagons to scummy people.

@Menalque - Do you think there's a chance you're pocketed by Catboi? I went back and checked some things, and their first post in the game was an RVS vote towards you.

The fact you are town reading them so strongly for reasons I'm not sure why, not that I'm confident in Catboi scum by any means, but their first post acknowledged you, which is a direct way to interact with another player, and that can easily lend to trust for being acknowledged.

I think Catboi started the pocket on Menalque from RVS, and went with it more than 'planned' it.

This just feels like you tunneling on Catboi by discrediting people who defend him as pocketed or reasonless rather than reevaluating your own position.

I'm starting to feel ill so I must question my reads from this morning.

Can someone briefly give me points where they feel I'm wrong besides catboi is too town to be town?

~Titus

You showed up late. You need to look at that bnuuy wagon.

I will but I feel that it's another counter to catboi. That makes me think town before reading.

However, I am open to being wrong. It's also getting to the point where there are so many counters that catboi may need to be eliminated as catboi couldn't live until elo.

~Titus

The final post does not follow at all from the previous ones. I'm fairly sure this isn't a hydra head issue, as based on context it appears that all of these posts were made by Titus. Nashville Dreams originally was talking about how all the wagons springing up were counters to MonkeyMan... it took me a while to find the post, since it was made by Titus on the wrong account and thus doesn't show up in the Nashville Dreams ISO, but it's here:

I'm seeing a bunch of counterwagons spring up to MonkeyMan576 and I am not a fan.

I really feel that the only explanation here is that Titus forgot which player she was claiming the counterwagons were for, or somehow got the names mixed up. The latter seems very unlikely, the former is possible as town, I suppose, but feels much more likely to happen as scum.

So uh, if you want us to think about moving our vote probably prod Titus into responding to this.