Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: VP baltar
Bayesian stats

[Dwlee99]

Lukewarm gammagooey town for voting Marci

Datisi wagon bad imo

Think Datisi >Rand town

Scum on Datisi probably VP and or Marci?

Possibly a late vote like fay

Rhyme and reason post restriction is distracting

Bell needs to place a vote

Other nonvoters just need to post

[Dwlee99]

@dwlee. Uh. Why do I have to place a vote?

Take a stance!

I find this wagon analysis confusing. When you say it is bad, do you mean scummy?

And if you think the wagon is scummy, why are you most suspicious of the first and second vote on the wagon, over votes 3-5?

I think the wagon is on town!dats + there is scum on it

First two people I just found independently scummy and the "last vote more scummy than 3-5" is kinda baseless beyond I feel like it

You're not voting Marcy though

Don't think scum was voting Marcy there though

*raises finger to begin emphasizing a point*
*breath catches*

Okay.

Hmm. I’m processing. Did Dwlee ever explain why I needed to vote?
I’m ignoring most of the the questions (not that there are many) being thrown my way because they’re kind of meh.

Fire feels good to me now.

Don't like this from Bell. I had two posts, seems like fake pondering to ask this first question

Gonna
UNVOTE: Baltar
VOTE: Marci
Cause it seems it's gaining more steam and I dislike her dislike of Datisi's reads

Also ftr I'm moving across the country for the summer in 11 hours so I'll be more engaged after I'm settled in at my new location

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: Bell

Moved in, saw wagons are shifting here. This + marci competing is good

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: VP Baltar
Vote on me is pretty disgusting imo

[Dwlee99]

I mean he says "even accounting for holiday weekend" about me and cakez but cake is churning out a ton of content and if baltar was actually reading my posts to get a read on me (especially cause there isn't a lot there) he would see I literally moved this weekend.

[Dwlee99]

Just seems really opportunistic to push me here

[Dwlee99]

I mean he says "even accounting for holiday weekend" about me and cakez but cake is churning out a ton of content

not sure what you mean by mentioning cakez here. do you think cakez is town? or that vp is pushing you instead of cakez bc you weren't here to churn out content yet?

VP mentioned cake not playing good enough when I think he is fine

Just seems really opportunistic to push me here

Seems like you're still not doing anything. Prove me wrong challenge and actually provide some reads/insight that aren't lazy af.

if baltar was actually reading my posts to get a read on me (especially cause there isn't a lot there) he would see I literally moved this weekend.

Ftr, it's not your not posting that's really bugging me. It's that when you were here, it's the most basic and dull ass play, which isn't what I've seen from town!dwlee. In fact, getting tilted at a single vote isn't even what I'd expect from town dwlee.

Come back, read the game, and try again.

I'm not tilted, just think you're scum. I do still need to work on the "read the game" part though, that's true

[Dwlee99]

I wanna yeet Luke for calling LLD towny/ not wanting to yeet (same thing)

They are not the same thing.

Day 1 we have largely nothing to go off of, and lots of options since every player is still alive. The day is much easier to navigate if you really lower your standards for what lets you take people off your elim pile.

She is here, and posting - but she is not championing me as the scummiest person in the thread lol

Nah I disagree. Feels like she has been attacking Datisi and VPB a lot. You aren't even calling her scum anymore. I scumread her recent posting style too.
VOTE: Marci

Bad if Marci town

Actually bad either way

[Dwlee99]

Ignore first quote

[Dwlee99]

Baltar leaving me means he could still be town. But I am also still sus eyeing him for earlier

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: Lavar

Moving here

[Dwlee99]

I'm really satisfied with a lavar flip. The dip after pressure is characteristic of caught scum

[Dwlee99]

The dip is what's scum indicative. It doesn't matter if they've had more presence than me, which no shit they do because I've been busy. What matters is that they were around and then, as fire pointed out, they left once more reasoning was provided.

[Dwlee99]

Them defending me as an interesting development though I'll say that

[Dwlee99]

i think the fact that lavar posted all confused about how fast the wagon was, complained about how nobody was explaining things, and then when i explained my reasoning they just disappeared is... not great! especially when part of my reasoning was that they were avoiding engaging with people's suspicions of them and would instead just lie low and hope it went away on its own

^^^ here is what I'm talking about

[Dwlee99]

fire replied around 10 minutes later. I was just gone.
@gorillla I think this is my first game with Luke.

There are 16 hours between your last post before and first post today.

[Dwlee99]

And I don't know your personal "busyness" so idk maybe that's normal for you on Thursday, just a note that the dip in activity seems uncharacteristic of your other posting habits.

[Dwlee99]

Oh derp

[Dwlee99]

Them defending me as an interesting development though I'll say that

Yea relooking at this I think the defense is weird with the amount of shade they're also putting on me. It doesn't make sense to defend me at all given everything they've actually said is that I've done scummy things

[Dwlee99]

Who is RR and why am I partnered with them

[Dwlee99]

Arguments about who I'd kill are interesting given I certainly wouldn't be the one making the decision for who to kill given my activity

I've skimmed, ish, will try to be around later.

[Dwlee99]

Andante preflipping me scum into a random player, what else is new?

[Dwlee99]

For Datisi's death you can ignore all the WIFOM shenanigans that usually come with night kill analysis since the D2 mod-post extremely strongly suggests they were LLD's Invictus target, and I feel like you especially might get more out of it (assuming you're town) going over his D1 posting and other people's comments on him now that you know 100% that he was town - if you have time to reread a bit let me know what you think.

Someone help me figure out if this is a real or fake town slip

[Dwlee99]

Not knowing if Datisi or LLD is the scum kill

[Dwlee99]

But if Gammagooey was scum surely they'd know that LLD was the nightkill and therefore Datisi was the invictus, which is why it's a town slip

[Dwlee99]

But if Gammagooey was scum surely they'd know that LLD was the nightkill and therefore Datisi was the invictus, which is why it's a town slip

It was already discussed in the thread though. If you're using that logic, you should apply it to whoever was the first confused person (which I don't recall off the top of my head).

I also just think that's such an easy thing to fake it's kind of pointless, but you do you

Okay fair

[Dwlee99]

Arguments about who I'd kill are interesting given I certainly wouldn't be the one making the decision for who to kill given my activity

I've skimmed, ish, will try to be around later.

Idle thought that I had before but this post is weird. Kinda feels like wrong reasons irritation or not even irritation but like. *Hand waves.* Something in that world to me.

Wrong reasons irritation implies I'm town because the kill spec was all to say I was town

[Dwlee99]

Okay so we you've said how that post could make sense from a scum perspective but did you even consider how it also makes perfect sense from perspective of someone that didn't have input to a night kill because I don't have one?

[Dwlee99]

What do you want me to comment on

[Dwlee99]

Literally anything. You haven’t really given much as to your reads/thoughts/...anything beyond a few fleeting posts that aren’t helpful in terms of like. Solving. (Why am I partnered with/nightkill comments are interesting/the tell thing with Gamma.)

Like you just don’t seem to care... at all about doing so much as voting and I don’t see a reason not to pressure you. I get that you’re busy IRL but even the popins you do throw in are... tepid.

Yes this is fair. I'm mostly skimming and that is why mentions of my name elicit more of a response from me than other stuff

[Dwlee99]

I don't even remember why I voted Marci. With VPB I don't think I've seen anything that's made be like "wow so townie uwu" or whatever today

[Dwlee99]

I actually recall Dunn reacting similarly to a time Noraa had him pegged as scum. Will update when I actually cross-reference it

[Dwlee99]

Ashe: Testarossa -> Mastina
Amumu: FireisredSir
Caitlyn: Dwlee99
Elise: 0x1A4 -> Enchant
Gragas: Marcistar
Lux: Ydrasse
Lulu: Flea the Magician
Jarvan IV: ɀefiend -> Dunnstral
Warwick: Save the Dragons

Wait why was this relevant?

[Dwlee99]

Andante you have literally never read me right

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: Dunn
Was gonna wait for a response to my question but I don't think it will sway my read that much on the slot. I think the pattern Cake pointed out is right

[Dwlee99]

Cause I was in that game and if he had something relevant to say about it I wanted to hear it

[Dwlee99]

-snip-

Did you just meta me with two games under different circumstances and then act like it was completely representative of the current context

[Dwlee99]

Cause I was in that game and if he had something relevant to say about it I wanted to hear it

me and marci were talking about it right before. did you just pull it from his iso without looking at the context?

Yes

[Dwlee99]

Andante you have literally never read me right

Well, have you done anything day 2? like, as scum you do nothing, so it's not my fault you're falling into textbook scum!dwlee


do you wanna give reads? like you were almost limmed d1, don't seem concerned there, here you're just like "oh yeah.. get Dunn!! the counterwagon to me!!"

Dunn is my read now

[Dwlee99]

The thing you point out as the difference ("not caring about appearances" as a paraphrase) is what Andante is accusing me of and calling it scummy lol

[Dwlee99]

But no it's literally not the same circumstance when the first game you link I had 7 posts on the first day. Not even close to comparable activity-wise

[Dwlee99]

I had more posts on the second RL day of that game than I do in this game right now...

Are you bullshitting me or did you just completely miss that?

[Dwlee99]

Who are your scum reads and why dwlee?

Dunn for cake reasoning checking out across other examples I've read and tonal differences

Fire for this obviously bullshit push on me as a counter to dunn

[Dwlee99]

Fire took something that is "generally" true about my scum vs town game, and then lied about the application of it, which is pointed out by Andante who was not trying to make a point about this saying she thought I didn't care this game whereas Fire is trying to read into my posts and fabricate the caring he wants you to think exists

[Dwlee99]

48
241
1238

Are the only posts fire has made about or in response to dunn. Feel like fire is just trying to push me without actually engaging with the Dunn wagon, and his posts about Dunn consist of things like "teehee what if I townread dunn for a bad reason"

[Dwlee99]

Responding to things about myself is universally true and doesn't have anything to do with caring about appearances

Have you heard of the cocktail party effect

[Dwlee99]

Cause I was in that game and if he had something relevant to say about it I wanted to hear it

me and marci were talking about it right before. did you just pull it from his iso without looking at the context?

And I think you would connect that this shows that I'm skimming, right. So then when I see my name it garners more attention. Because it's me. So I notice it.

[Dwlee99]

What hood are you talking about

[Dwlee99]

Anyway I'd expect you to talk about Dunn cause I'm pretty sure he's the other main wagon rn so if you want to convince people voting Dunn to vote me you should engage with why they think dunn is scum and then convince them I'm more likely instead

[Dwlee99]

Except I was asking because I thought he was trying to make a point about that game and so I looked around his ISO for context and didn't find it and so I asked

[Dwlee99]

I guess I could have looked at the actual context of that post as well instead of just in his ISO. Oh the hood is mentioned here too wow

[Dwlee99]

I'm not moving the goal posts what

Your posts about Dunn are non-existent in thread. If they are in a hood then how is it my fault I can't see them...

[Dwlee99]

You thought I phoned in my scum games...? What? Besides geriatric (which was a combination of IRL and being irrationally mentally restricted by the post cap) I don't think I've had even bad scum performances. Pokemon my play wasn't great but only reason I ended up limmed when I did was cause I got cop checked

[Dwlee99]

you're right my bad, it wasn't a 100% exact match, it's really unfortunate that my entire point rested on the games being exactly the same and not that they were just examples to support a general point about your approach and attitude in games

but luckily i found a better scum game that matches the circumstances much more closely:

viewtopic.php?p=13394870&user_select%5B ... #p13394870

Also can someone double check if Fire does this kind of snark as town. I don't recall it but I don't have time right now to comb through past games

[Dwlee99]

About Dunn or to Dunn. If you're talking to dunn voters about the Dunn wagon and why you think the dwlee wagon is better, then you would have to mention Dunn. So that would be about dunn still

[Dwlee99]

Dwlee, can you give me a quick paraphrase of what you think Cakez reasoning on Dunn actually is?

One of the issues I have with SirCakez is I thought the way he treated pushing Dunn on D1 was worth at least an eyebrow raise ("dunn is scum because meta", "prove it", "I could easily", "go on then", "actually, I have different reasons now", etc).

I don't feel like I have a good reason to townread Dunn, and it is true that I would consider SirCakez most likley town on a scum!Dunn flip (and vice versa), but it's my belief that of the two, SirCakez is more likely to be scum. I don't know how I ought be reading you currently either, so if you are saying Cakez has convinced you Dunn is a good wagon here, helping me understand why might help me with both objectives.

Cakez point about Dunn is that Dunn had an OMGUS and derisive reaction to the push on him. This checks out across CONTROL where Dunn did it to Noraa (as The Three Bears hydra) pushing him

[Dwlee99]

Also fire if you have a post where you interact with the Dunn wagon without talking about Dunn at all then I'll look at it, but otherwise your point is meaningless because you won't have reached the new checkmark you claim should matter instead of what I'm pointing out

[Dwlee99]

Yea so you wouldn't strongarm you'd be seeking reconciliation. No I don't have the complete timeline, if it's only been 12 hours then yea sure but I see 400 post gap between now and your last thing about Dunn before this conversation and I raises red flags for me when I'm thinking about who could be partnered with him

[Dwlee99]

Also just gonna point out I think now you're moving the goalposts. (How exciting!) because your complaint was "it shouldn't matter that I wasn't talking about Dunn if I'm engaging with his voters" but now it's "it shouldn't matter that I'm not engaging with his voters because there hasn't been time to"

[Dwlee99]

What did you get out of it on that front

[Dwlee99]

Dunnstral replaced in on his main before this interaction happened. Can't give you post numbers rn

[Dwlee99]

Gonna find what I was referring to once I'm home in ~1-2 hours. It's there if I didn't fever dream it, but there's a ton of posts and I didn't earmark it.

Cakez complaint about my vote totally skeeved me out though. Feels like he wants to pin this on me if it goes south

[Dwlee99]

Why would a bussing vote be the same as a mislim vote?

[Dwlee99]

Why is that bad

[Dwlee99]

pretty sure i've never actually read dunn wrong before so like

-baby bear >.>

I'm pretty sure this is bogus

oh wait wait wait wait wait wait WAIT hold the fukc up. i just skimmed dunnstrals iso.
thats scum. can we bring that wagon back please

-baby bear

oh wait wait wait wait wait wait WAIT hold the fukc up. i just skimmed dunnstrals iso.
thats scum. can we bring that wagon back please

-baby bear

Dunn's last few posts are some of the towniest posts he's ever made

NAH. nah. he's gonna flip scum. 90% certainty. im like about 2 posts away from calling him conf scum.

-baby bear

Actually, how about you explain this read?

Also, "skimming" my iso, as in not the hydra, but my 7 post iso?

This isn't what I remember finding the first time but I think it fits the criteria

[Dwlee99]

I quoted the player list in the other game because people were talking about it.

Dwlee I pointed out how my play in this game is not omgus against sircakez, other players have too. Why are you still pushing this? It's not true that I started voting or even pushing sircakez after they pushed me. I pointed out how me giving a read on sircakez was in response to somebody else asking.

This isn't what I remember finding the first time but I think it fits the criteria

Both of these posts happen in another game

What is your argument for

this game

?

hmmm I actually don't see it here. I kinda just believed cakez it happened here and then was like oh well if it happened here then that would be scummy

[Dwlee99]

1719 feels mildly town-indicative.
Dwlee’s back and forth with Fire almost looks like its objective is to discredit Fire more than anything else…
Can’t say I like that.
Looking through Dwlee’s ISO, I feel like some of their posts could very much be fabricated by scum trying to feign ignorance you know? Stuff like 1056 and 1149 kinda spooks me.
1369 is a confusing way to dismiss that argument? Though iirc that argument was used in favour of their innocence so I can’t say it think it’s scum-indicative here, might actually be +town. Ehh but they’re aware of it in 1578…
1425 I was a fan of at first, but the “town slip” was just lack of knowledge on the nightkill? Which could easily be pointed out by scum.
1655 is weird to me. Why does Kovu’s stance here actually matter? That’s, as I mentioned earlier, something I feel was made with the goal to discredit Fire. 1679 too.

Skimming through Dunn’s ISO, there isn’t that much that stands out to me? I’m not seeing much in terms of townpings or scumpings. Meh.

VOTE: Dwlee since I’m uneasy about them and feel stronger about them

This post sucks a lot

[Dwlee99]

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

Also I'm interested in what the tonal differences you mentioned in 1660 are

You are being more differential I think. Like posts like these feel very appeasy is the way I would put it, which is also what Noraa has described as being your scum game

[Dwlee99]

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

I agree with Dunn that this is what we in the business call a 'weak shit post' from dwlee.


Based on my very recent experience of being scum locked in a 1v1 against town Dwlee, I will say the last several pages don't strike me as town Dwlee. When I had to fight dwlee in KTANE, it was terrible because they were relentless! Admittedly, I made a misplay based on greed, but they actively punished me in thread for that and I got limmed. Dwlee here is coasting and not attacking whoever they think are scum running them up. It's a very different attitude to pressure.

I basically had a guilty on you, there's a difference in my level of confidence here

[Dwlee99]

1727 from Meuh is actually terrible in a ton of ways though? Literally nothing they say has any actual evidence of me being scum besides maybe trying to "discredit fire" but all of those posts are me arguing with fire and trying to say why his argument I'm scum are wrong? So anything I say arguing against him would have to be a discredit? Like 1655 is pointing out that fire's meta tell on me actually indicates I'm town here, because Andante has pointed out that I haven't cared about the pressure on me. That post is a real stretch to call a discredit imo, and overall the entirety of 1727 is just flimsy reasons to scumread me packaged together hoping that people will think at least one of them is legit. I can go through each one if it's necessary but Meuh has nothing here when you read this
VOTE: Meuh

[Dwlee99]

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

Also I'm interested in what the tonal differences you mentioned in 1660 are

You are being more differential I think. Like posts like these feel very appeasy is the way I would put it, which is also what Noraa has described as being your scum game

What part of these are appeasing...?

The way it's phrased is like "please explain your opinion so I can understand it" instead of "you lying scumbag I never did this thing" but it's weak and when I realize that Cakez just made that OMGUS stuff up it makes me want to vote him more than Dunn or my new shiny scumread

[Dwlee99]

Last sentence kinda confusing. I want to vote cakez or my new shiny scumread more than Dunn

[Dwlee99]

I basically had a guilty on you, there's a difference in my level of confidence here

Eh, maybe. But you also would know you're not scum here, and that's a big part of confidence. I don't really feel like you're necessarily scum hunting. I get going after dunn to some degree since it is you or him basically. But I feel like town you would have a broader net and be looking for who is pushing you in bad faith. I just don't see that here.

Pedit - taking this Meuh post under consideration shortly.

Well I toyed around with fire being scum but they responded kinda fine and the most compelling evidence I found was just an associative with dunn and 1.) Dunn is unflipped and could be town and 2.) Remember the fallen soldier Menalque

[Dwlee99]

Skimmed blah blah still want kill Dwlee. Kinda feel like Meuh has +equity if Dwlee flips maf or whatever the kids say for the back and forth on Dunn and Dwlee but now “reconsidering” and then going to Dwlee at the end where their elim feels a lot more probable. Or maybe Meuh is just a waffle wolf. Whom knows!

Help me bus question mark

[Dwlee99]

Last sentence kinda confusing. I want to vote cakez or my new shiny scumread more than Dunn

Fwiw, I still want cakez dead. If we do flip you and you're town, I'll avenge you on this point.

But I don't want to die

Skimmed blah blah still want kill Dwlee. Kinda feel like Meuh has +equity if Dwlee flips maf or whatever the kids say for the back and forth on Dunn and Dwlee but now “reconsidering” and then going to Dwlee at the end where their elim feels a lot more probable. Or maybe Meuh is just a waffle wolf. Whom knows!

Help me bus question mark

Three dots followed by thinking emoji.

I’m pretty tunneled in on you dying today.

That's lame cause it's only based on things not there rather than there. Ie, you were only pushing me because I wasn't posting much

what does dwlee act like as scum typically

We've had games together

[Dwlee99]

for the record i don't really agree with this at all. dunn is just a polite person (mostly, which is why imo its hilarious when he's not) even when he thinks he is talking to scum. the posts here sound more on the accusatory side to me in the way he phrased them, def not reconciliatory

I am not a Dunn expert, I was trying to follow the Noraa guide

i think your points about the meuh post are valid. i wanna know if you have any reads on people (besides the counterwagon dunn) unrelated to their engagement with you. mostly cause i think it's kind of often a scum tactic to primarily focus on those people especially when likely going down. can be townreads or scumreads idc

Not really because the only stuff there's been that I've digested is in relation to me over the past idk day or two. If you have batches of posts in mind for me to give my opinion on I can do that when I am free. I don't think a thorough reread (the "re" is even stretching it with how much I had to skim) is in order here though on a time basis

[Dwlee99]

@Dwlee I’m like half paying attention but I think that your vibes here aren’t what I’m used to from you being town and it did harken a bit to the Geriatric. I disagree with the appeasy characterization and overall Im just eh I guess.

Can give more attention l8r.

I expect my vibe to be different from different circumstances while posting (for example, every post I've made this game iirc has been on mobile)

I thought that the appeasy thing was there but not strong and I've moved on

[Dwlee99]

We've had games together

i dont remember u ever being scum tho

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89094

[Dwlee99]

hmm ok i guess, not even any townreads? the thing is like if you flip scum here we learn almost nothing from your posts bc you're mostly engaging with the people based around their suspicions on you which are either town or scum on a topic that is relatively easy to fake interactions with

which is why there's scum motivation to make that your focus. its good antispew tactics

and plus seeing reads from outside what are sort of... current events, would be useful for helping sort you from a different angle

im also just kind of used to town you getting reads on people that others might not really care about or listen to but you care and you wanna talk about them. i haven't really seen that here at all and it kinda feels like you're mostly just rolling with the punches and making reads as they're convenient to you based on who you're talking to

so you don't have to like full reread if you don't have time but if you do end up with any reads that are unrelated to you then share them pls

Yea that requires me being engaged with the game when I'm not a primary focus though. Almost all recent posts are about me so idk how to backfill when I can't exactly engage with the past

[Dwlee99]

Yes

[Dwlee99]

And that is unrelated to any engagement with myself so hopefully that read fits

[Dwlee99]

And that is unrelated to any engagement with myself so hopefully that read fits

unfortunately if you flip scum it heavily spews you as scum so i don't think this read provides any additional information

Damn true

I townread gammagooey but that's related to them kinda defending me

Gorilla can be town for voting meuh

[Dwlee99]

Also kinda mind meld assuming their pedit is true

[Dwlee99]

I'm fairly invested in a dwlee flip tbh. I don't think they are addressing this pressure well, and there is a lot of info to be gained in that flip. Meuh is bad, but is almost so aloof I think it is town.

You're not going to do anything with my town flip that you couldn't just do now...

[Dwlee99]

guys tbh just looking at dwlees iso in that game and remembering my memory of how he acts as town

i feel like he does more as scum than he has here

People are comparing my play this game to a scum game where I didn't do much. I don't think activity is really relevant for reading me at this point cause when I'm scum I'm not purposefully avoiding the thread because I'm scum. I play mafia when I feel like playing mafia, mostly when I don't have more interesting stuff to be doing at the moment

[Dwlee99]

Reminder the only time Andante has ever read me as town I was having my literal worst scum performance

[Dwlee99]

I think Meuh is ignoring my post about her post.

Fair enough. Tbh looking through Dwlee’s ISO I was looking more for scummy things (to see if anything contradicted my prior position of Dwlee being town) and I think that came through in the actual post bc it was pretty one sided. (and that wasn’t a good angle to approach it from, since my original reasons for TR Dwlee didn’t have much to do with what they had posted)
Still think they’re scummier than Dunn though

And this is a false dichotomy. There are multiple days left on the deadline and there's support for other people like Cakez

[Dwlee99]

ok dwlee, what have you done, OTHER THAN "this push on me sucks" like, that's literally all you're doing this game, like if you're town why not actively push a good counter wagon, out TRs.. not quoting literally every post about you and going "bad"

You're literally not reading and I don't understand why I have to do this routine with you every time we are in a game together

[Dwlee99]

1.) I pushed Dunn independent of anything about my wagon or even engagement with me
2.) I now think Cakez is scum even though he isn't on my wagon because if Dunn is town then Cakez was hard posturing to pin it on me and his explanation for why it was bad didn't make sense when he scumreads Dunn
3.) I now am pushing a "good counter wagon" in Meuh which you should know because my last post before you responded to me was literally about how I'm scumreading her
4.) I gave two townreads LAST PAGE

Read my posts please for the love of god

[Dwlee99]

Haven’t other people said similar things when it comes to you vs Dunn? Why are you only calling it out now that I’m the one suggesting the lim is likely between you 2?

Because your reasons to lim me are terrible so you'd think you'd want to look elsewhere? At least other people seem to believe their push on me

Also Dwlee what do you want me to say about your post? I really can’t be bothered to partake in an extensive back-and-forth that ends up with no one’s minds changed, like the discussion you had with Fire. I doubt anyone would get anything out of it.
SirCakez as a lim doesn’t particularly compel me, though it wasn’t out of the question until Kovu’s post just now. Definitely don’t want a flip there because of that; and I don’t think Kovu should reveal any more than she already has.

You could try justifying your reasons? Your post is all just vague musing about how I could be scum imo

Also I straight up don't believe Andante right now. She claimed a fake clear last game I wouldn't put it past her to do the same thing again

[Dwlee99]

This is an annoying fight we can have tomorrow. Let's lim dwlee and just get some info then.

You also ignored me. What are you going to do with my flip that you can't do right now? Do you have no thoughts on the duplicate interaction between Andante and I from last game to this game?

[Dwlee99]

I feel like town!VP comments on the interaction between Andante and I ftr. That he doesn't is a huge scum ping

[Dwlee99]

Also meuh and VP are coordinating to try to rush through the phase

[Dwlee99]

Except I'm gonna flip town and regardless of my alignment you'll go "woops guess dwlee should have been townier" and we are just wasting a day phase

[Dwlee99]

Regardless of your alignment*

[Dwlee99]

Also meuh and VP are coordinating to try to rush through the phase

We’ve gotta discuss this one in wolf chat

and no, I’m not particularly interested in rushing through the phase, we should make full use of our time.
…it’s just that exploring certain avenues today would do more harm than good, the confirmees would be one of those. Patience is a virtue, after all!

Literally doublethink

[Dwlee99]

I know we've moved past this, but you said you were sheeping Sircakez' reasons for 1711 but you only bring up Noraa instead. But I had asked you to relate the Sircakez' stuff to here.

As for the appeasing argument, the only post you give an example for is my current posts, and not something that happens before your 1660. Also when I asked you those questions I didn't think you would be able to answer them (and I don't think you really did as I pointed out above).

I said in 1741 that the cakez stuff doesn't exist.

For other examples where I thought you were differential I'd say things like 147. I don't have a list of the posts I saw that I thought were differential when I was going through your ISO

[Dwlee99]

Also meuh and VP are coordinating to try to rush through the phase

do you think that scum partners are likely to do this? i assume that's what you're saying here. i feel like it would require there to be a really good reason for them to choose to do that in a way that could be noticeable, what's the reason?

It's WIFOM right? But yea I think partners would do this if for instance they felt one of them could get limmed otherwise. Or if they just want me to get to say less things before I die

[Dwlee99]

I'm probably about 95% that at least one of Meuh and VP are scum

[Dwlee99]

Actually kinda leaning VP over Meuh here but if people feel otherwise I'm okay staying on Meuh

[Dwlee99]

What are your thoughts on meuh?

[Dwlee99]

Sample size scum=1, town=3 VP Baltar only says fair warning as scum

please go read the setup again.

Fair warning, in games like this, I'll probably ask lots of dumb questions about the setup/mechanics.

Certified stupid reason to catch someone but if anyone wants to check more games that'd be epic

[Dwlee99]

Okay thanks I figured it couldn't be that easy ><

[Dwlee99]

I've seen people caught with verbal tics before

[Dwlee99]

Ex. MathBlade used to have a penchant for calling people "teapot reads" when scum

[Dwlee99]

How about specifically 1365 and 1727

[Dwlee99]

How about specifically 1365 and 1727

I will give these a read in depth again tomorrow.

@gorilla - idk, seems like a desperation move to me

You can't just ignore legitimate reason to think tells like this can be a thing and call it desperation

[Dwlee99]

What's the move here as scum? To convince people to vote you using a case that is likely to be viewed as reachy? To get people like me to see it as towny?

I think, as scum, it is a two fold benefit. It gives the appearance of scum hunting (they are still pushing this as valid, mind you), and if there I'd any merit to what they are saying it shades me as potentially having ulterior motives to push dwlee. They said they think I might be more scummy than Meuh after all!

Town can act desperately, you're right. However, is that desperation being made in good faith is the question. Dwlee is a very smart person, so I am going to treat my assessments with that in mind. I have a hard time believing they think scum broadly are more likely to use particular words than town. They are using a mathblade example (which I'm skeptical is even true) as an indictment on me. It's lazy and convenient. The same thing happened when dwlee attacked dunn using cakez' argument and then said 'whoopsie, that's not true'.

It's street fight logic: use any weapon you have. The problem is that dwlee isn't even checking what they are saying first to see if it is accurate. That's where my problem is.

Come on this is total bullshit

"which I'm skeptical is even true"

If you're town you could look up teapot read in MathBlade's posts and literally see a conversation between ssbm_Kyouko and MathBlade where Kyouko talks about how the teapot read worked to catch him. Or you could ask me for evidence of this. In what world are as town do you suspect I am completely lying about something and not try to nail me down on it? Just use it to shade me instead?

VOTE: VP Baltar

You could also look at our last game together where I basically had a guilty on you but was still "using any weapon I have." In the case of the word choice I checked 4 games and was on mobile so figured I could float it and people on a computer would be able to check easier. Which turned out to be true. You aren't actually sorting me here you're trying to find absolutely any reason to get me limmed

[Dwlee99]

(they are still pushing this as valid, mind you)

Also this is a bald-faced lie. I literally said it didn't have merit as soon as Dunnstral posted the example of you using it as town

[Dwlee99]

I’m noticing that the way dwlee is wording stuff seems to be intentionally avoiding the assertion of their reality as town in their grammar and sentence structure and furthermore

I don't think this is true but I also don't know what this means

[Dwlee99]

Solid reason 10/10

I could kill Mala here

???

[Dwlee99]

Fwiw I unironically really dislike this post, verbal tic aside
Not sure I see why VPB would be a better lim than Dwlee or Dun, though
Guess that's what makes it a gut tunnel

Noncommittal shade

[Dwlee99]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

Dunn isn't even really a wagon anymore and I just quoted his (bad) defense of Dunn. He's basically made no comment on dwlee save to mention he could kill them today with no further elaboration as to why. Hasn't really given a meaningful read on dwlee at any point this game.

I could be misreading Dunnstral at this point for all I know, I think Luke's play is very scummy regardless of Dunn's alignment at this point. He doesn't look to be believably sorting anyone.

Dunn is very weak town rn for me

I prefer to let Luke live cause of the claim

What do you think of Baltar

[Dwlee99]

Baltar is scum claiming with this push on me so please reconsider :plead:

[Dwlee99]

VPB I don't get why your reason for thinking I'm scum is still that you think I'm being "obtuse" and not cause Andres is fucking dead

Obviously you killed andres. I initially thought, 'well I don't see a lot scummy in dwlee's day play, could something else be happening here?' Then I express this thought today, and you proceed to exploit that to piledrive me by ignoring all the evidence to the contrary of me possibly being scum. And then when I explain that evidence, you act like your brains are made of concrete when we all know they are not.

So yeah, you killed andres and I never said that's not the case if you're scum. Example No. 500 of you acting like you can't understand basic conversation.

Last game Baltar also tried to appeal to "Dwlee should be smart but they're dumb here so scum" and they were scum there

[Dwlee99]

You also said I was trolling you last game when you were caught scum

[Dwlee99]

This is you justifying a dumb shit smear campaign that had just been disproven immediately.

Also, no, it's me justifying the general technique even though this application proved unfruitful

[Dwlee99]

And then you said how does that make sense.

And then I explained very clearly how that makes sense.

And now you're playing dumb or something

Just straight trolling me

Anyone else getting cold feet?

Totally reasonable town mindset from VPB rn to say I'm scum cause I don't buy into the "Datisi is a total fucking troll and decided to make this game of the suffering of 3 unfortunate townies and the person that should not have been exploded" world theory

A point you allegedly confirmed with the mod. Keep calling me the crazy one.

Fact: scum can mess with defusers

Fact: fogster had a role that can affect bomb outcomes for town

Fact: mod says scum could affect bomb outcomes

Dwlee: VP is crazy, that would never be possible. Also what if scum used that ability on catboi (WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FUGGGGGGGGGG)

I can hard clear dwlee. just vote VP thanks

Nobody believes you are hard clearing anyone. Also, if you're an investigator, then why not investigate me last night, the person you were scum reading all fucking game?

Kinda weird for you to not believe she has a clear though when that would fit your worldview that you+dwlee are town

Why hasn't she investigated me? That's why I don't believe it. Dwlee is also trolling me, so clearly I was wrong to good faith my read there.

i don't think that makes you scum

I hope you understand how infuriating this game is from town!VP perspective when like four players are just actively trolling me.

VP still voting me weird champ

Why? You're being intentionally obtuse. Clearly my good faith read was misplaced. You need to die. Bad move on your part to save your buddy mistyx.

"I was trying to have a good faith read but now I've been trolled"

[Dwlee99]

Normally I would shy away from engaging you since it’s not productive and I think you’re town. But sure. I have the posts and I’m conflicted with all the wagons tbh. Dwlee seems the easiest.

I'm the easiest wagon because I'm town

[Dwlee99]

6 pages since my VP Baltar case and the only response I got to it was Gorilla saying they see the similarities and Baltar calling me a troll and then ignoring me ultimately to wind up voting me.

I have 6 or 7 votes and the case was that I didn't post enough but people are still voting me despite me having well more than the median posts now.

Does anyone actually think I'm flipping scum here? Like seriously? Do people think that a super fast wagon that everyone is sticky to for no concrete reason is a wagon on scum?

Fey/Meuh/Baltar are all completely terrible votes on my wagon. Fake reasons and conviction for me being scum. Lots of words with no actual thought going into these votes.

Enchant is just sitting on me for fun.

I don't know why fireisred is on me still but he at least seemed genuine in scumreading me

Kovu said bullshit, got called on it, and then promptly ignored me. Sadly this is completely consistent with her recent town games so she is probably still town

Lukewarm just wants the day to end apparently which is lazy and awful when there's actually good cases on other people and we have almost 2 days left.

[Dwlee99]

Also Baltar/Meuh have engaged in mutual noncommittal shade to each other pretty consistently. They both will say "oh y'know this is kinda scummy" or "this is a garbage post" but then mindlessly vote with each other.

Fey isn't even doing enough to have associatives cause I'm pretty sure they just pop in every once in a while to say they think I'm scum or make a joke

[Dwlee99]

I think that a scum team with enchant on it would be down for enchant to be viged. It gives him his invictus kill.

It is basically +1 scum directed kill compared to the current most likely way scum!enchant dies this game (death by invictus).

Fair point to not vig enchant.

Pedit - oh look who returns when attention is back on them

KILL THIS

HOLY FUCK

HOW MORE OBVIOUS CAN IT BE

ATTENTION HAS BEEN ON ME FOR DAYS

BALTAR HAS NOTHING BUT MINDLESS SHIT FLINGING

[Dwlee99]

I was gone for THREE AND A HALF HOURS

CAUSE I WAS AT WORK

AHHHHHHHHH

[Dwlee99]

I have addressed the game content and you're still scum

I guess I'll start announcing whenever I'm not gonna check my phone for more than five minutes

[Dwlee99]

oh look who returns when attention is back on them

Town!Baltar literally never makes this post

I was gone for only 3.5 hours and have already had attention on me for days and been responding to it. It has no purpose other than to try to bury a townie

[Dwlee99]

Fire... Baltar is trying to get me mislimmed by 1.) Saying I'm acting stupid when I should be smart, and therefore I'm scum and 2.) Claiming he is trying to give me a "good faith read" but I'm "trolling him"

Both of these are literally identical to KTANE. What aren't you seeing exactly?

This doesn't even include his snark on me for not being in thread during work.

I cannot wrap my head around what could be so hard to understand about this

[Dwlee99]

You don't have to agree with my associative reads to see how blindingly obvious VP scum is right now

[Dwlee99]

Also, because this is necessary now I guess, I'm going to get dinner. I might be a couple hours cause I'm sitting down. Sorry for all whom this may disturb

[Dwlee99]

You don't have to agree with my associative reads to see how blindingly obvious VP scum is right now

Also, because this is necessary now I guess, I'm going to get dinner. I might be a couple hours cause I'm sitting down. Sorry for all whom this may disturb

Lol OK. Fwiw, if I was scum, I'd probably pile drive you here as payback. That should be a huge sign to you I'm town. I'm giving you space and legitimately trying to consider what a town you looks like here. Anyhow, have a nice dinner.

You say you're giving me space but then said I was scum for being away from thread for 3.5 hours. That's not space at all

ok sure why not

VOTE: Meuh

@fire - if you truly prefer meuh, I'll join you. I do think dwlee is hard flailing here, but meuh isn't exactly doing shit to make me not want them dead.

Flailing isn't scum-indicative for me

[Dwlee99]

-snip-

I kinda see what you're saying but if town!marci it seems like the given read was a throwaway "here's a random thought I had" instead of being something that she is tied to. I don't even think she voted you, and she prefaced it by saying "Can I say something stupid?" which to me makes me think her position isn't to be taken as firmly.

-snip-

I can understand why it could be that most of my and Lavar wagons yesterday could be town (scum trying to avoid looking bad) but it could also be the case that scum just plopped a vote on one of us because it would be all the same to them. You didn't really tie this together but I'm guessing you think that Marci not voting either of us is scummy then, but I want to see your thoughts on everyone off the wagons and not just Marci, and also who you think could be scum on the wagons.

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: Marci

I’m down.

So my townreads in no order as follows:

{R&R, bell, Val, kovu, sc, fire, fey}

I’m down to lim any of the following:
{dwlee, Marci}

I want to lim Meuh, but RR has a townread on that slot so I wanna flesh out why tbh

This seems too narrow

Dwlee - I am paying attention to what you are saying, but it's coming a little too late for me to know how much stock to place in it until I am comfortable with your alignment, which might well take your flip. In the meantime, I am going here.

VOTE: Meuh

Baltar is the only one we can't seem to get momentum on though and I'm way more confident on my Baltar scumread than my associative scumread on Meuh + she seems to agree with me on Baltar and I like that

There is zero chance meuh and dwlee are both town.

That's how I feel about you and her

As of late, your interactions with Dwlee have been terrible and despite you acting like you're giving them a real chance, you keep engaging with them in bad faith.

TRUE

The "VPB+Meuh are scum together" bit from them feels pulled out of a hat, your "look who's back" on them is dumb and not a scumtell, they at least seems to believe in the verbal tic thing being a potentially valid scumtell regardless of their alignment in this game imo

My associative reads are often pulled out of a random web in my brain that sees a link

And then occasionally I nail it but there's a lot of false positives

My best moment probably ever was in KTANE when tldr there was a role that could force an explosion to frame townies but town didn't know yet, and the only way Baltar could be town fmpov was if the role existed, and then I predicted that Baltar was scum, the role existed, and that the person he was trying to lim was that role to try to save himself.

Now by predict it was more of a "wait that would be funny" but yea

-snip-

I don't think marci as either alignment thought the wagon would shift to you. As for the attention thing, I actually agree with you that it is scum-indicative but this attention thing is actually way worse wrt Baltar. He has conftown scumreading him, a case I made on him, other people scumreading him, etc. but he is getting ignored. Basically I agree with the premise of what you're saying but think there's a much stronger argument that it applies to Baltar than Marci.

[Dwlee99]

Flailing isn't scum-indicative for me

Do you have any town examples where you straight up used misinformation to try to push people as you were getting run up?

I haven't done that here idk why you keep repeating it

My best moment probably ever was in KTANE when tldr there was a role that could force an explosion to frame townies but town didn't know yet, and the only way Baltar could be town fmpov was if the role existed, and then I predicted that Baltar was scum, the role existed, and that the person he was trying to lim was that role to try to save himself

You understand how after watching you pull this big brain off, I'm questioning why you are playing this game so badly, right?

It's day 2 with no scum flips and also if you're town you have no idea how right I am except on you and you're objectively playing like your last scum game so you shouldn't be surprised I scumread you here

[Dwlee99]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=88401

Here is the last time I was mislimmed btw

[Dwlee99]

It's day 2 with no scum flips and also if you're town you have no idea how right I am except on you and you're objectively playing like your last scum game so you shouldn't be surprised I scumread you here

I objectively play the same way as either alignment. You have played with me enough to know this. There are subtle differences that are obvious to me, but you being like "you said I was trolling you in a scum game too!" is dogshit reasoning.

At some point, if you're town, it'd be cool if you took a modicum of responsibility for your own play here.

I think I'm taking responsibility. It isn't just you saying I'm trolling you or something, it's that you're pushing for my mislim the same way you pushed for it last game, down to appeals to my intelligence and how you're "trying to be reasonable." You repeatedly claim I'm pushing you in bad faith when I've been good faith reading you while you continually push me with bad faith snark and interpretation. You've repeated falsehoods multiple times and misrepresent me to say I'm repeating debunked stuff, which I've not done at all. I also think that you seem anxious to lim me for basically no reason when you know I heat up the later the game goes, and that seems like something scum!you would prioritize given last game.

[Dwlee99]

Last sentence kinda confusing. I want to vote cakez or my new shiny scumread more than Dunn

Weren't you just sheeping me on Dunn? This doesn't add up

You skipped stuff, your OMGUS thing doesn't exist