Warrior Cats Mafia [Game Over!]

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Frozen Angel long time no see!

-

Okay, that's good.

[Something_Smart]

Pls tell me there is a sample role PM

...why is there no sample role PM

I mean I have a hard time parsing this from any alignment. Bell can you please elaborate?

[Something_Smart]

It's not really a town slip, is the thing. If anything it looks like just a genuine scum slip because scum aren't necessarily told that they are the only threats to town (while town are).

But I can see how the "clan" wording could be confusing, since typically one is only a member of a single clan.

[Something_Smart]

hi shiro I am town this time

I think I would like to VOTE: Charloux because that's a very odd joke to make and I feel like town are more likely to be excited to post in a hood whereas scum are more likely to be nervous.

[Something_Smart]

i think frozen angel is scummy for trying to over-explain her vote on charloux

What part is over-explanation? All of her explanation is in response to direct questions.

[Something_Smart]

this is what i mean by over-explainy - she presented a reasonable explanation, dismissed it as "doesn't make sense" (even though it does), and then proceeded to try to justify her vote and appear like she's Really Thinking About The Game

I think that's the right amount of explanation, though. You see something that doesn't make sense as town, then you provide a reason why it makes sense as scum. If I saw someone pushing a vote because it "didn't make sense" I would consider that under-explained.

Having an issue with her specific logic-- that's more reasonable, iirc FA is the type to deliberately push phony reasoning like that but of course my meta is stale. But I do kind of agree that the joke doesn't make sense (I don't really see what's funny about pretending that something obviously false is true), and I did have the scum PT thought as well, though I arrived to the conclusion that it was unlikely nobody else posted in the scum PT.

[Something_Smart]

If you are Starclan, there is no need for a sample PM, because the sample PM is sitting in your inbox, no?

I don't want to talk about the wording my role PM if said wording is not public knowledge.

[Something_Smart]

Scum!SS would pm the mod to make the change, not ask for it in the main thread. It's a towntell

Well, I would PM the mod asking for a sample town PM. I hope this would not prompt her to post it publicly, but it might.

And I don't think confirming role + alignment rules out clan confusion; it's usually easy to tell alignment from coloring + lack of partners/obvious scum info, even if you don't fully understand the factions or the wincon.

[Something_Smart]

Yes.

What makes you think everyone besides you is in a clan?

[Something_Smart]

MY QUESTION TO EVERYONE ELSE: DO YOU READ THESE POSTS AS TRUSTWORTHY, NULL OR SUS? WHY?

Fire's posts seem like they're Reasonable Positions which I guess is scummy because they're pretty difficult to argue against? Especially the Dann take.

Val is probably either town or brazen scum who just feels like hammering on a townie for funsies. If Val has been known to do this as scum before, I'd love to hear it.

I wish what happened in my hood stayed in my hood...
So 4 clans, 5 scum. My current theory is that scum are in 3 clans, and preventing them from knowing who the strays are is the key to this game.
That means no saying who the clan members are and no saying who the leaders are.

How do you know there are multiple strays?

there's 1 stray and it's titus

How do you know there are

not

multiple strays?

[Something_Smart]

UNVOTE: Charloux

It's a theory based on Titus claim, the number of people in my pt and the details of my role.
3 more people have yet to post, and we can't confirm that everybody who posted is a member of a clan.

This post seems pretty town. Generally I see scum being too afraid to vaguely reference their role like this, because it requires planning out a specific fakeclaim and committing to it. (And it's pretty hard to retroactively come up with a fakeclaim that matches a soft like this.)

I think my top vote choice would be Mistyx but I'll make some modicum of an effort to consolidate votes and join mastina on Norwee.
VOTE: Norwee

For now I'm feeling okay with a towncore of {Charloux, mastina, Marashu, Val, Shiidaji} + perhaps Bear (I will have to reread their posts, and I had enough trouble reading them the first time).

It's probably kind of a problem that the people I'm most inclined to townread are often the people I clash the most with, and the ones I'm the most paranoid of are the ones I love talking to and solving with.

[Something_Smart]

I dunno what to say to the town core thing. Unless we use entirely different definitions of town cores the k my one I’d even consider would be Mastina at this point and that’s just a default.

It's just the people I townread. My early game townreads are usually weird and unpopular; I'm happy to chat about any of them if you want to.

I don’t know your history with these players to know if the people you’re town reading are the people you tend to clash with but I’m moderately surprised that you clash with marashu or that they clash much at all.

I think it's because I tend to townread people who play in a chaotic or irrational-seeming way. Marashu isn't like that particularly, I just don't really know them.

Who wants to be the one to tell Bear there are confirmed to be no third parties?

[Something_Smart]

Why is Shiidaji town? That seems super random.

Posting tons of thoughts in the clan PT and absolutely nothing in the game thread, to me, indicates an emphasis on solving over appearing to solve. I can see scum going for hood pocketing, but the hood's big enough that you're not really going to convince people it's a masonry anyway, so it doesn't make sense to completely focus on that to the exclusion of appearing to do anything in the actual game.

interesting, why?

I didn't really like 102, it seemed to be explaining away people's reads instead of engaging with them. 164 is pretty shallow (in particular I think most of what I was doing was not particularly towny but easy to throw a townread at), 232 and the followup feel TMI-y because Titus did not in fact confirm it, and I have a silly tinfoil that she mixed up PP and FA in 297 because they're both her partners (and a less silly one that she mixed them up because they are both town).

[Something_Smart]

why would town you want the wording clarified to all slots when if its hidden you can potentially catch a scum slipping (as bell was getting pressured early for it)?

Bell-scum could have just asked the mod for it as soon as he got wind that something was up.

What I didn't want was for someone to be modkilled for talking about the wording of their role PM, which was liable to happen if the discussion went any further.

[Something_Smart]

I highly doubt that Ydrasse intended for the leaders to be a mason group but did not explicitly make them so. I would imagine that the setup contains some counterplay to the issue Charloux brought up.

If nothing else, you can target a scummy player for it, which should stop scum from just killing them.

[Something_Smart]

Has Shiro done anything in the PT?

[Something_Smart]

{Norwee, Alisae, Something_Smart, Titus, KittyTacky} (default team of five) feels a bit too easy to be the right solve.

This is also an issue for me. I asked for confirmation that 394 was a claim of KittyTacky's membership in Windclan and not a mistake since they still haven't posted there, and was told by Norwee is was the most unnecessary question ever, but if that is confirmed, and KT is scum, that means Windclan is both a 6 player clan and one that is absolutely stuffed with Dark Forest cats.

I understand that is a possibility given the nature of random assignment, but I do wonder if that was the case if they would have chosen to play this the way they did.

I feel like this is town

[Something_Smart]

I do not have that passive yet. My PM mentioned nothing about leaders but left open the possibility they exist.

My thinking (which is now likely wrong), each PT had one apprentice, one warrior, one protector and one ?. I am a protector myself.

I think this is town also but I don't have to like it

[Something_Smart]

Ok but like, what you're saying, and what is like, happening, is like, completely opposite of each other and actions say more about a person than what they say so...

wouldn't that make him town then? or why would he pretend to be overly worried about the post cap as scum?

[Something_Smart]

I'm town, I play weird but I'm town. Nothing else to say, if anyone has any questions you can ask.

what are your reads

[Something_Smart]

-

this is town unless it is theater of some sort, I think. unsure what combination of {Bell, Alisae, Norwee} would qualify it as theater, probably any one of the three, but I guess Bell is the most likely out of the three?

[Something_Smart]

the postcap here is 200. i don't really think any town here should be genuinely worried about it rn if they put any actual thought into it (unless they are a huge spam poster which we don't really have any of here), which is what makes it feel kinda faked concern

I am feeling the same thing he is talking about. I make a lot of borderline useless posts. Even though I doubt I'll hit the cap, I still feel bad making those posts. It is, indeed, a psychological thing.

[Something_Smart]

sweating because i also mentioned posting less due to the post cap

why does this feel like a scum post

because I feel like the town reaction would be "ha, you're wrong" and not "oh no, I'm gonna be scumread now", even if the post is made in jest

[Something_Smart]

i combat it by posting in the hood, where i have over 100 posts currently

so how many posts does kittytacky have in his hood rn? @whoever is in a hood with him because fuck if i remember

good question. that was my plan as well, and I do have a lot of hood posts relative to my posts here, but I don't think it was as successful as I was hoping it'd be.

[Something_Smart]

they're using that reasoning to scumread kittytacky, who is currently my strongest scumread, why would i discourage them

because you have just proven that the reasoning is flawed? people are saying "town wouldn't do X" while fypov you are town who has done X

[Something_Smart]

also i think there is a very VERY big difference between me and kitty saying "i'll be posting less because of post cap" -- mainly because i have actually produced. alot of content DESPITE THE POSTING WHILE HE HASN'T

what about me? is it different because I didn't directly say it?

[Something_Smart]

you have posted way more content than o every expected of you lole

this makes me sad but ok I guess it's self-consistent

[Something_Smart]

it's also like not really true I pretended to play normal for like 10 posts and then regressed

[Something_Smart]

enough to the point where at first i thought it was weird and the difference could be scummy, but i am feeling that less now

can you walk me through your thoughts here in more detail?

[Something_Smart]

I kinda want to switch to Datisi because his recent posting about Kitty feels pretty dodgy but I'm not gonna lie I really want to see what Alisae does if Norwee gets close to elimination because that can maybe just locktown them forever.

[Something_Smart]

And, I don't really want to let the Kitty wagon become a runaway leader because he doesn't seem like someone who's likely to be able to defuse a wagon on himself.

[Something_Smart]

what about my posting about kitty is fucky dodgy to you

specifically the bit where you're like "yeah their reasoning is bad but I don't care haha"

I've seen that mindset before, but it's not common, and it seems like it ought to be a red flag if the wagon's widespread support is based on something that's wrong.

[Something_Smart]

that sounds like the right amount of thinking, not overthinking, lol. (it also, from the outside, could look like backtracking. I'm not saying it necessarily is)

I agree with you that, in theory, an argument could be made that Kitty's complaining about postcount is scummy, whereas yours isn't. Did anyone (other than you) make that argument? I feel like most people didn't acknowledge/remember that you had also complained about it.

[Something_Smart]

they didn't, i was trying to make this advanced level of communication known as a joke

but my point is that, if people forgot about you and just pushed Kitty for complaining about postcap, they are using wrong reasoning. Doesn't matter if you came up with hypothetical right reasoning they

could

use, they aren't using it.

[Something_Smart]

Doesn't look like it to me since you proceeded to post one-liners again after this

Yes, that was me succeeding in stopping myself from doing the thing that I had just acknowledged I knew was bad. Hopefully Kitty can do likewise.

I'd like to ask you to elaborate, but my guess is you don't want to until it happens. Why share this with us then?

I don't have anything specific in mind but Ali is a pretty emotional and volatile player and so if they care very much about something they're more likely to let their alignment show.

[Something_Smart]

Well, what was your conclusion S_S do you think Alisae is town this game? And which posts do you think point that way?

Huh? I was talking about what Alisae might do in the future.

[Something_Smart]

i quoted that like an hour ago for a post i ended up not making

hmmmm I wonder if that's +scum

[Something_Smart]

If marashu is scum then catboi's scum equity goes way up

[Something_Smart]

What did you think of catboi saying it’s insulting to think they are partnered

I did not see it and I do not agree with it

[Something_Smart]

why is norwee still a wagon i'm confused on that

bc having one wagon is bad

[Something_Smart]

then why vote him over kitty

The case against Kitty is weaksauce and it doesn't really seem like pressure will make him or anyone else easier to read.

[Something_Smart]

is norwee easier to read after there being a wagon on him

Maybe, but Alisae probably will be. I already talked about this.

[Something_Smart]

Mastina probably too.

[Something_Smart]

talk about it more 'cus that doesn't make sense to me

Alisae really thinks Norwee is town based on hood stuff and a lot of people find that sketchy. Alisae is known to get pretty heated and emotional about things they strongly believe and I think it pretty likely that at least one of the two would do something that would reveal their true priorities if Norwee were under serious pressure.

[Something_Smart]

Would you really though? Just to pocket one person whom nobody ever listens to anyway?

[Something_Smart]

Why wouldn't I?
I wouldn't say it would even be to pocket you but rather it's just a move that would make sense to do?

I mean, what are you trying to argue? That reading people is impossible because they can just do what they'd do as town if they're scum?

Like obviously I expect it to come out differently if you're town vs if you're scum.

[Something_Smart]

but didn't you read her 2000-word essay about why her being behind and catching up isn't scum indicative?

[Something_Smart]

LOL NO I DIDN'T, SHOULD I READ IT?

you don't have to but you should probably wait until mastina actually does her catchup to make judgements on its quality

[Something_Smart]

-

I disagree.

[Something_Smart]

does T3 tend to struggle as scum

bc they're kind of reminding me of myself when i sub in as scum

idk I remember a game where scum-T3 blatantly self-contradicted to push my slot so naturally I got yeeted instead of him, but I thought he was pretty clearly scum

[Something_Smart]

My extremely outdated impression is that scum-mastina makes more of an attempt to appeal to the masses than she's doing.

And I do just remember her doing this "I've figured

everything

out and you peons should just kneel down and listen to me" in Datisi's Cafe, where she was town. (spoiler alert: she did not figure everything out)

[Something_Smart]

...................why?

iirc you were the first person to propose that 47 was towny

maybe I am improperly putting the blame on you for me just accepting that uncritically, but I did, and I know this has happened to me before where a comment like that has thrown me off of a scum for a while.

[Something_Smart]

good morning i am late for class because I overslept also I had a dream that S_S was scum

I am assuming these two facts are correlated and that this was important info that was meant to be revealed to me no matter the cost

it means that if you scumread me you will be cursed to be forever late to class (I hope your class was ok and you did not miss anything important)

Alisae=

Town

catboi=

Scum

Charloux=

Town

Norwegian=

Scum

Datisi=

Scum

Bell=

Town

KittyTacky=

Town

Dannflor=

Town

Mistyx=

Scum

SCRRRDBEAR=

Town

Titus=

Town

fireisredsir=

Scum

mastina=

Scum

Frozen Angel=

Scum

Cephrir=

Scum

Marashu=

Town

Shiro=

Scum

Val89=

Town

T3=

Town

PenguinPower=

Town

[Something_Smart]

mastina= Scum

this should maybe say town but idk I've been going back and forth on her a lot.

her whole thing about townlocking everyone in the hood except for me based on them literally just being excited about being in a hood together is eyebrow-raising, even for her.

[Something_Smart]

that are pretty bold joking and is a thing town would be way less comfortable saying in general. and the questions that have 0 value in evaluation

Second question seems like it could potentially yield merit, presumably he was looking for "what indicates that you aren't scum", not "what caused you to not be scum".

Regardless, I don't get why town would be less comfortable making these? Isn't it usually a cliche that town is comfortable saying whatever where scum are a lot more nervous and careful?

[Something_Smart]

Is royal we an English term for me?

Yes, that's a relatively well-known joke, in my understanding. But I can understand being confused if you aren't familiar with it.

[Something_Smart]

if she is truely a mason then there is someone else with a clear on her. and if she isn't then there are no other slot to confirm their story or their buddy has to claim mason to confirm her story which means we will get 2 scum instead of one if she flips red cause of it.

so I expect the masonry to fully out before we eliminate her or for her to claim her actual role if she is threatened to go this day phase

She isn't claiming literal mason. She clarified in the hood that the comment refers to how she got immediate and strong townreads on 3/4 of her hoodmates based on hood posts.

[Something_Smart]

Mastina has already claimed in the hood btw.

[Something_Smart]

What is their claim?

Probably shouldn't out that without consulting at least one of my hoodmates. But you don't have to worry that mastina is stalling out her claim to get more info or something. (I mean, she may still be stalling out, but for other reasons.)

[Something_Smart]

My biggest regret right now because it means I can't actually go "fuck that" to the idea of claiming since I literally already did, a fullclaim from the onset pretty much. (Less than 48 hours into the game.) My neighborhood can claim my role publicly at literally any time, meaning that I can't actually say "you want my claim, you flip me" or similar.

Why would you do that though, even if you could?

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I mean it's reasonable for mastina to have a really good read on you, but she needs to demonstrate it by showing previous games where she was confident on you and right. Which I don't think she did?

Incidentally, Norwee, do you purely scumread mastina due to her push on you, or do you have other reasons?

[Something_Smart]

SS what are your current thoughts on norwee and mastina?

I think I lean town on mastina because what she's doing just feels like a big throw as scum, and I lean scum on Norwee because I'm inclined to trust mastina to some extent (obviously not as much as she claims we should).

[Something_Smart]

Norwee peaked at 6 which is higher than any other wagon did (at least according to VC's).

[Something_Smart]

I think it's fair to say that no counterwagon is happening.

I'd switch to Kitty if that got more support.

[Something_Smart]

ok can you share more of your thought process of why you put her as scum when you did your readlist?

No. Those readlists aren't meant to be explained.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Kitty

[Something_Smart]

why did you post 1446 if thats how you feel

the way you added it on 10 minures later feels a little self-conscious, or pre-empting criticism or something

I mean yeah, that's pretty much why. I did the list without checking and I forgot about some of the reasons to townread her.

[Something_Smart]

SS why do u trust mastina > me on norwee

Not sure. Probably because hood pocketing is so common.

[Something_Smart]

I don't recall them. What games?

[Something_Smart]

ig they're not really comparable because in this game I have direct access into Norwee's head and what he is thinking.

And I don't, which is why I respect your read but have trouble taking it into account.

And I did say that part of my reason for pushing Norwee was to see how you defended him if it came to that, which might have also helped to shed some more light on your read.

[Something_Smart]

CAN WE GET SOME FOLLOW UP ON THIS?

I mean I would love to but it hasn't happened (yet). Unless you're talking about the Datisi bit.

I like the idea of voting Kitty but I will wait until tomorrow when I am more awake and can properly count votes.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Kitty

Kitty out of curiosity did you always list your location in your profile? I don't remember seeing it before.

[Something_Smart]

Oh that explains why the PT wasn't open until game start.

It also explains why the game had a fixed start time and why Ydrasse wouldn't tell me if the scum PT opened at the same time as the hoods.

[Something_Smart]

Way more people suspect KT than Norwee and I mean, just look at his posts.
Guy plays like newbtown.

Hmm, can you expand on this a little?

Specifically, I got the impression that Kitty was highly self-aware, which isn't a common newbtown trait. He's played enough to know what his town meta looks like and at points I felt he was frustrated that his imitation of said town meta wasn't leaving the impression he hoped it would.

[Something_Smart]

And at least today I feel like, assuming T3 is town, he is by far the easiest lim for scum, since he is a low-charisma player who replaced into a low-activity slot and continued the low activity.

[Something_Smart]

is it bad that I townread that Norwee doesn't know the name of my clan? (I don't think it was ever spoken in the thread)

[Something_Smart]

I'm good enough and have the game knowledge and experience to be able to look at another player and just tell who is experienced and who isn't and sucks and is just an idiot.

Is there anyone else in this game who has arbitrary stances?

[Something_Smart]

DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ANXIETY AND DOESN'T REALLY MAKE A LOT OF SENSE TO EXPERIENCE ANXIETY THERE

As someone who's played a fair bit with Datisi, I disagree on both counts.

[Something_Smart]

Can u please shut the fuck up?
I mean if you are a wolf u are welcome to keep going but like
If you are a villager, could you like, please stop fucking posting?

Wtf alisae

[Something_Smart]

I BELIEVE TITUS ROLE IS MOST LIKELY TO BE SCOURGE

Did Scourge ever join a clan? Wouldn't it make more sense for her to be Rusty, or another loner who joined a clan?

Actually, I guess Titus should claim whether or not her flavor is Rusty. If it's not, she doesn't have to claim what it is.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Something_Smart

feel like this is a hit btw

going to eat breakfast

why

[Something_Smart]

THE MECHANIC OF INFILTRATING A CLAN UNDER THE PRETENSE OF ADOPTION

I didn't read that part of the series. Is this what happened? I thought Tigerstar just brought him in as a mercenary?

[Something_Smart]

Which of those things do you think I would not be doing as town?

[Something_Smart]

I didn't townread Kitty in 1444. That just meant he was north of null.

[Something_Smart]

for my intents and purposes that's the same thing

so what is so weird about that? are reads not allowed to change?

[Something_Smart]

In fact I feel like a distinct feature of my scumgame is to have extremely static reads and to cling to early townreads on LHF slots so I can cash in on towncred when they start getting pushed.

If I were really just looking to take the path of least resistance, I could be pushing T3 here. (Even if he's scum-- honestly even more so in that case.)

[Something_Smart]

wdym without explanation, I explained it in 2416

[Something_Smart]

no but if your reads change in a way that aligns with a fairly plausible scum agenda without explanation i am going to put pressure on it

so you were lying about think I'm likely scum? or what?

[Something_Smart]

also like, I think I pretty demonstrably was not townreading Kitty at any point, I defended him a lot without actually giving any reason why I thought he was towny, because I didn't. I'm sure you understand the context of that list, which is just to pick one or the other on every person, which is of course going to be completely arbitrary if I don't have much of a read on them.

I believe I wrote town primarily because I didn't like the push on him. My read on him went from null to scum, which I mean, sure you can call it potentially a scum agenda, but you can equally say that about anyone else pushing him.

i don't want to shut you down with "this doesn't sound convincing" but that was my first thought

oh for sure, I would not expect it to be convincing. but the question is, do you believe that I could believe it? not necessarily as a deathtunnel or anything, just as something that feels worth pushing.

[Something_Smart]

also, I have 117 posts in the hood. so even if I'm flying a bit under the radar here (I'm trying not to, but I was out of town for a while around the end of D1 and the beginning of D2), I'm certainly not doing it there.

and I am on record as being terrified of hoods with strong solvers as scum, I can go find the game that comes to mind. Ali modded it.

[Something_Smart]

wow, mobile wikipedia on desktop is incredibly cursed

[Something_Smart]

Isn't discussing replace outs not allowed.

discussing past replace-outs is fine, it's discussing potential future replace-outs that is not allowed.

[Something_Smart]

The moonpool exists in the books and iirc is used by all clans. It's a bit weird that only two (or even three) people would have access to it.

[Something_Smart]

What do people think scum-Titus's thought process behind the whole "protector" thing was?

[Something_Smart]

What do people think scum-Titus's thought process behind the whole "protector" thing was?

[Something_Smart]

i an assuming that the answer is yes (i recall her asking me for a sample town role pm in the cafe), but i'm listening to other ideas

But she also massively botched her claim in that game, specifically when it came to referring to her powers/mod communication. So I'm not really sure that game is evidence that she's adept at handling faking a town perspective when it comes to role-related stuff? And I believe I recall her making bizarre fakeclaims at least once in the past.

[Something_Smart]

Yes, but she also didn't fully explain her claim (nor was it really a good claim anyway) and even after she was caught in a lie she didn't make a follow-up claim that made mechanical sense. I guess that could have been deliberate, but it looked like it was a genuine error to me.

Pedit: YOU do not get dumbtell points for that, sorry

[Something_Smart]

That’s just off the top of my head. Oh, S_S, you’ve fallen off massively, why?

Bc 6 people were replaced and it feels like a totally different game now

[Something_Smart]

S_S CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THIS READ? WHY DID YOUR VOTE STAY ON KITTYTACKY ALL D2?

2416

I liked the Kitty wagon more than the T3 wagon. I thought Shiidaji posting a mega wall in the PT and nothing in the main thread was towny, and I thought Kitty was actively suspicious and deserved to be pressured more.

[Something_Smart]

What were Shiidaji’s reads? Shiidaji = T3 yeah?

It was very early on. Ali explained it in 364.

I am trying to decide if I think Shiidaji is more likely to do that if they do have a partner in their hood, or if they don't.

[Something_Smart]

So the only T3’s are likely town barring good reason.

I'm not sure I agree with this. T3 was basically a potato and was antispewing from pretty early on. It's very plausible that he was bussed.

[Something_Smart]

Interesting. I will have to redo my VCA overnight assuming bus, but why would scum bus? Was T3 sussed?

Shiidaji had literally one post. T3 is not known to be the most charismatic player, and he was very hesitant to give content in the main thread. What may well have happened, then, is that at the start of D2 he/his teammates saw the writing on the wall that he was likely to get wagoned and decided it was not worth trying to avert. I don't remember exactly how telegraphed it was, but T3 got 7 votes in the first 18 hours of D2, so I don't think it took a psychic to see it coming.

[Something_Smart]

Is there a reason this wagon has ceased to exist? I'm still in favor of it.
VOTE: Kitty

[Something_Smart]

I've been kinda disconnected from the game for a while. Any chance you could give me the tl;dr on which posts were towny and why?

[Something_Smart]

anyway it's ravenpaw

That was actually going to be one of my guesses. Probably not my first tho.

And yes, I see where you're going.

[Something_Smart]

I mean yes?

[Something_Smart]

I mean, yes? How the hell are you guys picking these.

What are you afraid of happening? What PR could I have as scum that you wouldn't want activated?

[Something_Smart]

I haven't a goddamn clue, we've had so many short days and replacements.

Assuming this day actually makes it to Monday, I'll do some reading then.

[Something_Smart]

I haven't a goddamn clue, we've had so many short days and replacements.

Assuming this day actually makes it to Monday, I'll do some reading then.

IT'S OVER

VOTE: SOMETHING_SMART

What are you hoping to gain from this?

[Something_Smart]

If it's a reaction test, better to just outright state it's a guilty. Otherwise, please outright state it isn't.

[Something_Smart]

Then, based of what you've read, where are you at?

Everyone null except for Bear is town? Idk when I said I need to read to remember what's going on, I meant it.

I guess the leaders are probably +town because whoever was the mason died when the watcher was active.

[Something_Smart]

Well, because of... exactly what happened. Enchant was a pretty obvious watcher target.

[Something_Smart]

Because they were confirmed town?

[Something_Smart]

You think he got a guilty with the shot that Datisi recharged him with?

[Something_Smart]

I mean - prs in this game are already gated (sometimes doubly so!) so I don’t see how that was unreasonable to think but ok.

Well, what do you think the timing was on Datisi's ability? Do you think it resolved at the start of the night?

[Something_Smart]

I think that’s pretty clearly what I thought.

How could that happen when Datisi wasn't granted the warrior ceremony until the start of the night? Did you think he pre-submitted an action just in case he was chosen?

[Something_Smart]

I mean, I know I'm not guiltied. So I have that piece of info.

But also, I never said this was impossible. I obviously implied that I thought it was unlikely, but I just wanted to know how/why you thought this could have gone down.

To me, it seems very weird that an action with a target would take place instantaneously; like, would the mod wait for the recharger to submit their action before starting the night? Large theme with weird mechanics or not, usually actions are submitted during a time period instead of becoming available and instantly resolving.

[Something_Smart]

Thought you may have been though.

I know you thought that (or are pretending as such), that's why I asked Bear to clarify.

[Something_Smart]

is there scum motivation for this? if not, then who cares?

scum motivation for what, PP acting like he thought it was a guilty? absolutely, I can see him hoping people rush a wagon on me before Bear can come in and clarify, like they did the last few days.

[Something_Smart]

if you were scum here would you be salty at the set up?

Probably? 2 guilties in a row is pretty rough for the scumteam, especially when the second one came about from scum taking care of conftowns which they'd need to do given the number of them.

[Something_Smart]

Most of them have to be activated, and the watcher and presumably the cop are heavily gated. Watcher is fairly likely to whiff and cop getting an inno is a lot less impactful than a guilty.

[Something_Smart]

I don't believe the guilty.

[Something_Smart]

You know, S_S's statement there is actually sort of confusing. Because it sort of sounds to me like a joke, but I also know that S_S doesn't really make jokes.

I make jokes sometimes. It wasn't a joke though; Bear has spewed enough bullshit this game that I thought it was likely more bullshit.

However his explanation does make more sense, so now I'm not sure.

[Something_Smart]

Nah I just had more work shit than I expected.

Tomorrow, probably, but I reread best with specific prompts so if there's anything particular you want to hear my opinion on that sounds like a win-win.

The guilty being revealed as fake does lessen my sense of urgency, at least.

[Something_Smart]

i wonder when people will stop pretending all town hoods and masonries are the same thing

I wonder what Ceph's angle this game is if he's scum. I feel like he's been playing in a very support-ish role rather than a carry and I guess that could check out if Ali/Math and fire were intended to be carries (both have strong scumgames and could go deep).

But idk the vibe of the game I got was that scum weren't that broken up about the guilties. It's hard to explain why that is, maybe I would have expected them to try to argue their way out of it harder if they felt they were doomed otherwise?

Regardless I pulled this quote because it feels like theater-- particularly because it's a nitpick that is entirely irrelevant to the point Math's actually making. But it's also pretty typical of Ceph's play this game, which seems like it has mostly been engaging in a bunch of smaller issues from the sidelines (in contrast to most of the other active players who are engaging in a few large ones).

[Something_Smart]

Yes, but she also didn't fully explain her claim (nor was it really a good claim anyway) and even after she was caught in a lie she didn't make a follow-up claim that made mechanical sense. I guess that could have been deliberate, but it looked like it was a genuine error to me.

i thought

[Titus]

did extremely well given the circumstances in coming up with a claim that even came close to making sense given there was literally no way out of that situation

i don't see why what she did this game would be at all difficult to fake

there's also a huge difference between coming up with a fakeclaim, and knowing exactly what mechanical info you would have as town and being consistent with that mindset. i think the latter is easy and she is more than capable of that

ceph

made me laugh for the first time this game. townlocked

math

getting the alisae slot is kinda funny to me bc reading both of their posts make me tired and not want to respond

Is this just WIFOM? Maybe, but I feel like this sequence is less likely to come out the way it did if Ceph is scum.

I think it's less likely to be WIFOM because fire was in a decent spot and didn't expect to flip soon.

[Something_Smart]

Also: contrast how fire responded to Math defending Titus (with a deflecting potshot that obviates the need to interact) versus how they responded to me defending Titus (with a superficially reasonable counterpoint that doesn't really hold up). Don't want to dwell on it too much but I do think this makes me townier.

[Something_Smart]

well there's the townier bell i was looking for. its like a fully different person just showed up and started posting, idk where you were earlier

UNVOTE:

I am feeling hubris at this moment and I am scrolling through fire's ISO looking at associations. I do not think this is S/S, especially given that fire seemed to like tossing out easy townreads on townies this game.

[Something_Smart]

i think [scrrdbear, dann,

FA

, val] are town
less strongly i think [

mastina

, bell,

misty

, maybe

titus

?] are town
and then lightly i lean town on [penguin, charloux,

alisae

, maybe catboi?]

i think im getting close to the point of d1 where i get tired of talking and i just want to yeet someone

VOTE:

marashu

could vote

kitty

ig if people strongly would rather do that but i prefer this

idk what to do with this I feel like maybe more relevant than any of the reads is the timing of this? let me go look at what the wagons were like here.

I would be a bit surprised if the top two rows were all town, even if fire has been somewhat notably making correct townreads.

[Something_Smart]

Yes. {Bear, Dann, FA, Val} and {Mastina, Bell, Misty, Titus} are the rows in question, implying one scum in Bear, Dann, boy, Bell.

[Something_Smart]

Penguin's Unofficial votecount because it's been 19 hours

[7]

Marashu

: SCRRRDBEAR, PenguinPower, fireisredsir, Cephrir, NorwegianboyEE, Dannflor, Titus
[4]

NorwegianboyEE

: mastina, Something_Smart, Bell, KittyTacky
[3]

KittyTacky

: Datisi, Mistyx, Alisase
[2]

Alisae

: Val89, Marashu
[1]

Datisi

: Frozen Angel
[1]

Titus

: Charloux
[1]

Dannflor

: catboi

[1]

Not Voting

: Shiro

—

With 21 alive, it takes 11 to YEET.

Day one ends in (expired on 2022-10-30 12:12:34).

Oh ok. This makes me want to vote Toogeloo.

I was already thinking that Ali's interactions with Norwee were suspect and I didn't want to forget that mastina tied them together, and then it turns out that fire helped to kickstart the Marashu wagon and look who it was a counterwagon to. (The Norwee wagon in this VC is also likely entirely green.)

Problem being-- this conflicts with my theory that the leaders were all town. But, and I hope I'm not rationalizing here, I do think that a scumteam with Toogeloo is less likely to make the mechanically optimal play. Though I'd expect that fire, armed with the knowledge that Misty was active, wouldn't kill the mason? Possibly they thought that Bear was the more obvious watch target.

There's also the question of 3 scum in one hood; I feel like Ydrasse probably rolled hood occupants randomly, and probably wouldn't reroll a 3-scum hood, but I'm not 100% on either of those.

[Something_Smart]

I did in fact lie.
*

maniacal laugh

*

It was a unanimous vote for bear yesterday.

VOTE: Datisi

hmm I think this is towny?

[Something_Smart]

Also, I am opposed to eliminating any further Wind Clan for now. Math is actively trying to solve in the Wind PT and it's a bad push, from my PoV.

But then there's this.

[Something_Smart]

I'm gonna do this a bit differently, instead of town to scum doing strength.

Dann

/

Datisi

/

catboi

are genuinely never scum here. Ever.
When I say that, I am not exaggerating. I have played it out in my head countless times. I've looked for literally any sign whatsoever.
I've scrutinized every interaction that I've seen from them, and genuinely.
There is zero doubt. No paranoia. None. Not a drop.

I know that I usually exaggerate. I know that I usually am hyperbolic. That when I day a read is 100%, it's not REALLY 100^, I'm just leaving out the small voices of doubt behind the read.

When I say they are 100% town, I mean 100% TOWN. I genuinely don't see the scum. It’s not there. I'm looking for it. But no matter how I slice it. They're just...town.

Next,

Alisae

and

Norwee

are both scum.
I genuinely don't see them as town. I've looked. It’s not there. I can't find the townness. All I can see is the scum.
However, I admit it's possible that I just can't see the town in them. I am telling you that they are 100% scum, genuinely no paranoia.

Below that is

FA

. Removing the shroud of 100%, the actual number is more like 90%, and removing the same shroud, the this-is-town is closer to 85%. I still need to do the research, since it's fully possible she can legit be 100% in her town meta with me 100% certain. But I need to do the research there.

Bell

,

Marashu

,

Mistyx

are the next step down. Estimate of 75%. They have very very very strong, compelling reasons to be town, it's just that unlike the holy Trinity, I DO have paranoia. I was hiding it before, but it's there. It exists, and is the remaining 25%. Where my reasons could be wrong and the scummier aspects that briefly pinged were right.
But if this were a readslist, I'd still list them as locktown.

Fire

might be up with them, but I forget the reason why. I know that part of it is "fire isn’t acting like Cafe him, therefore town", but I had reasons for townlocking him beyond that. If I remember them, will get back to you on him.

Charloux

I have no clue where to place tbh.

The next definitive placements are

Something Smart

and

Cephrir

. I had one as SLIGHTLY higher than the other while writing this mentally, but I can't remember which was higher right now because they're that close in comparative strength, at about 60% for SS scum, Ceph town.
(Note for percentages: 50% isn’t null, null is 0%. So 60% isn’t "just 10% higher than default", it's 60% higher than default.)

The rest, don't honestly know percentage wise.

Bear

,

Charlpux

,

Shiro

, and

Shiidaji

I all loosely think are town, but fucked if I know by how much.

Fire jumped on mastina's wagon soon after this post. The competing wagons were Datisi and Norwee. Presumably there was at least one town they could have jumped on instead (and they didn't list either as a townread), so there was a reason they wanted mastina gone. I'm not sure that Ali being scum qualifies-- mastina was pushing Norwee first, and if Norwee were to flip town, mastina would lose enough credibility that Ali probably wouldn't be under major threat.

From this mastina post alone, I'd guess first that fire was protecting Norwee, and secondarily that they were protecting Datisi. But, knowing that basically nobody took mastina's locktown reads seriously, I think the protecting-Datisi theory is plausible, perhaps even more plausible than the Norwee one if you take the leader thing into account.

[Something_Smart]

Fire says that Datisi is townier at multiple points but never lists him as town in a read list. Bonus: fire getting called out by Bear for having a superficial reason to townread Datisi that doesn't make sense, and then walking it back.

VOTE: Datisi

Let's start here.

[Something_Smart]

Idk, I don't feel like I'm in a position to make demands? Do whatever you were already going to do. I will certainly read it, especially if it's addressed to me specifically.

Nice beetlejuice tho

[Something_Smart]

i wasn't gonna do shit tho

Then you have my blessing to continue doing that.

I feel like if you're going to do anything today that convinces me you're town (or town enough to move my vote), it's not going to come from deliberate effort to do the same. So I guess I would say, you are welcome to go out of your way to try to address my concerns, but I wouldn't anticipate that it would change anything since my reasons are mostly unrelated to your posts anyway.

The beetlejuice comment was not serious, hence the strikethrough. Though I do want to know if you just showed up or if you were reading my posts over the past hour and didn't feel like engaging with them, because I do want to hear other people's takes there.

[Something_Smart]

i also did have a "huh, s_s making reads? is he scum lol?" thought but idk what to do with it

have we not been over this, like, the entire game?

what's your experience with fire-scum? (I know you saw them in Cafe, not sure how closely you read it though.) Do you think my theory about fire pushing wagons to protect partners is consistent with how they play?

[Something_Smart]

do you have an example of a town game where you do stuff like this? i can't remember one

No, but I have three examples of town games where I was eliminated because nobody could get any sort of decent read on me. TSQ's comments to me in 241 almost made me quit mafia. Instead I decided to do this.

[Something_Smart]

Who did Kitty target again? Presumably scum wouldn't care much about killing a tracker unless scum was getting tracked.

[Something_Smart]

Norwe/Toog. Did not target anyone N1

hmMMM.

well that's interesting

[Something_Smart]

So, if they are then they managed to fool every single townie in this PT lmao

In fairness, if you have three scum in a PT, it's probably not

super

hard to manipulate the remaining townies.

But, your point about Ali subtly leading Norwee is acknowledged.

[Something_Smart]

Is there a massclaim order? Presumably Bell should set it?

[Something_Smart]

wait why didn't I get a prod lol

I'm still waiting until I'm supposed to claim (right?)

[Something_Smart]

Did Dann claim? Or are we just saying he doesn't have to?

[Something_Smart]

Tawnypaw/Tawnypelt, odd-night roleblocker once activated.

[Something_Smart]

Being salty about not being given the warrior ceremony yesterday.

[Something_Smart]

if I am not limmed today, and I am not the one who would be limmed in elo, then it's much better to lim in F4, because if I block correctly I can save the game.

[Something_Smart]

what is to stop scum from shooting every significant source of town power

the mason doctors?

[Something_Smart]

so one weird role is still alive but SS' feels bizarrely overpowered

how is my role overpowered? it's pretty weak while there's more than one scum alive

[Something_Smart]

i still kinda think, irrespective, we should do SS' warrior ceremony and try to go into d10 f3

Doesn't this require trusting me? You'd have to lim two people who aren't me, and if I'm scum I just win the next night.

[Something_Smart]

Well yes it's powerful now. But I assume the "weirdly" part meant he didn't think it fit in the setup? But it's really not stronger than e.g. a one-shot cop.

It's also worth noting that, if I'm scum, this claim could have backfired if I had been promoted last night. I would have been forced to clear someone.

[Something_Smart]

I think that he meant kill someone today.

Day 9 is 4 alive, no kill

You try to stop the kill night 9.

If the kill happens, then your target is cleared in 3p elo, you and your non-target cross.

If the kill does not happen, then you and your target cross.

That doesn't work, there's no reason for anyone to ever kill on N9.

[Something_Smart]

1)What is your set up spec on whether the game is more balanced with scum having 1 leader + 4 apprentices vs all apprentices?

Larges are impossible to balance. I don't know, it really depends on what mood the mod/reviewers were in.

2)If you could kill any 2 people who would it be?

Why should I answer this? Even if I include a disclaimer that the answer doesn't mean anything, people are still going to ignore that and act like it means something.

This just isn't the same game that I was playing on D1 and D2. I can't read any of the people here and the important clues I have from earlier days are contradictory and I can't sort them out because all of the people involved are no longer part of the game. We have almost no wagon information and NK information because most actions by both sides were forced. I don't trust myself to read anyone based on actions taken when there's only one scum left, especially these people, none of whom I've ever read properly (I think?).

The only thing I think I might be able to do is rule out 1 or 2 slots based on how they treated the Junko wagon. I really wasn't interested in engaging with Junko because she recently threw a game, so I missed a lot of the context there.

[Something_Smart]

Maybe the strategy that is being presented is flawed, but your post did not align with the suggestion at all.

I was being deliberately obtuse. Sorry. My proposal is only a "F3" on D10 in the sense that there may be three people alive on that day (but the game will already be solved, if it doesn't end).

We don't have to discuss this more. But 5501 will not work. And at the very least, we need it worked out by the start of D9, so people do not blitz a no-lim if we don't want them to.

[Something_Smart]

Dude, I am literally just trying to figure out your PoE, because I have no idea what you are thinking about this game.

IF you don't want to name 2 names, give me one. Or even just vote. Am asking you questions to get you to play the game that we are playing.

You do have an idea of what I'm thinking-- it's not like I'm sitting on super spicy secret reads and refusing to share them. I don't want to get into trouble grasping at straws that I can't justify. And I'm willing to make an effort, but solving this late is already really hard and the constant replacements make it harder. But it is getting to be holiday season, so I don't really want to comb through posts for hours to get 1% better reads.

My first thought is furtive, because multiple people have pointed out the Ali/Norwee interactions. And I want to say that if the leaders were all town more of them would be dead by now, though scum has spent the last 5? nights killing confirmed townies, so I'm not sure when they really would have had time for that. And I do remember that someone said Ali/Norwee was absolutely not S/S, though I forget who.

I have been perennially conflicted on Ceph. He seems like he's really determined to keep me in the PoE but he's never wanted to really lead the charge against me? I don't know if that's scum indicative but it scares me because I've been thoroughly sick of supposedly being townread and then having that suddenly just vanish and people mislim me without caring at all about what I have to say. This has happened in my last three towngames, and I feel like he's trying to encourage it here. If he's scum I would imagine his plan is to try to lim me in elo/melo.

In fact, I think that's scum's plan, whoever they are. I was already considering suggesting this, but I think it makes even more sense the more I think about it-- I would like people to commit to limming me either today, or not at all. Because scum are going to be incentivized to push on me pretty hard tomorrow, or else they have to effectively dodge an extra lim.

[Something_Smart]

With all due respect, if a hood is 3/5 scum (or 3/6 I guess, though most of the interactions happened before Titus joined iirc?), I don't really trust the other 2 townies to be able to correctly read hood interactions.

[Something_Smart]

I can definitely see Ali treating T3 way differently from Norwee, if all three of them were partnered and in a hood.

I don't have a good track record of reading Dann or tw. I did feel that tw and I didn't really connect in the hood the way I was hoping when he repped in, partially my fault for not continuing the conversation, but it could be that he was nervous about having a prolonged 1-on-1 interaction with me. Dann I think has been largely meh, I can go read his interactions with catboi in the hood though, because I'd imagine they would try some fancy stuff but I don't really recall that happening?

Dann did share with us, unprompted, that fire was given the warrior ceremony. I don't know that that means anything, but I guess it's a bit weird that he did it out of the blue? (Not even a "do you all think I should share with you who we voted on?")

[Something_Smart]

Did you not read the worst's strategy?
He literally told scum to NK you by giving you a ceremony today.
He's literally trying to get rid of you while pretending that he doesn't.

If scum are going to NK me, it doesn't matter whether I get the ceremony today or tomorrow. If I survive until N9, I'm getting the ceremony regardless, it would be basically a throw not to give it to me.

[Something_Smart]

SS, if you don't want to take the time to do back reads, why are you not voting?

Is there something else you are waiting for to vote toDay?

I mean I can still talk about the game and look back at specific events without doing a close reread. It certainly seems like the discussion right now is productive.

[Something_Smart]

er
you posted like twice
I threw some vca and speculative thoughts out and a couple of questions and you never responded
our disconnect here is not on me - and I'm pretty quick to self criticise.

this is a decent part of why I'm still wary of you btw, going strictly by the thread I think you're usually town, I'm just quite stunned that you didn't put the energy into us clicking.

yeah going back and looking you posted more there than I remembered. I wanted to address what you said but I think it would have required sitting down and thinking more than I was able to do during that ~24 hours.

maybe it was just that what you posted wasn't really what I was excited to engage with.

[Something_Smart]

Can you still vote for warrior ceremony?

If so warrior me. Otherwise scum-furtive can kill Luke, claim to be warrioring me, and then actually not do it.

[Something_Smart]

Though, I genuinely think that S_S shouldn't have gotten activated on an even Day, as it greatly reduced the usefulness of his role and effectively left Town defenceless and the game a lot easier to win for scum.

It would have been right for you to kill me even if I hadn't been activated on D8. Because I obviously would have been on D9.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah. And I was fine with that. I was obviously pretty lost, and it took me off the table as an elo mislim.