Warrior Cats Mafia [Game Over!]

[Lukewarm]

I have arrived

[Lukewarm]

Anyone want to break down this 190 page game for me?

[Lukewarm]

Hi Luke!

Bell, with a cursory glace at the activity overview page, I have determined you to likely be town.

Help me, I am new here, and am lost

[Lukewarm]

Anyone want to break down this 190 page game for me?

I AM A COP WHO GUILTIED SCUM. I AM IN THUNDER CLAN.

THERE ARE CURRENTLY TWO DIFFERENT, STRONG EXISTING ARGUMENTS FOR WHY DATISI IS SCUM, AND THERE IS ONE STRONG EXISTING ARGUMENT THAT THERE IS SCUM IN THE LEADER PT (DANNFLOR, FURTIVE, AND FREEDOM) WHO IS NOT ALSO IN THE THUNDER CLAN PT (FREEDOM.)

I WANT DATISI TO BE KILLED TODAY WHILE I AM ALIVE AND I WANT THE REST OF YOU TO FIGURE OUT WHO/IF IS SCUM IN THE LEADER PT AFTER DATISI IS FLIPPED.

Is your guilty on Datisi? IF yes, what is the second strong argument that he is scum? (and why do you even care about a second argument if you have a guilty? lol)

What is the argument on why there is one in the leader PT?

[Lukewarm]

Did you start as an apprentice?

If yes, did you claim your cop role in the thunder chat before the leaders gave you the warrior ceremony?

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: DATISI

I'M COP AND I HAVE A GUILTY ON DATISI (ALIGNED WITH DARK FOREST)

FLAVOR IS SORREL

TAIL

....

Why did you even claim here? Like, if you had previously claimed in the thunderchat, shouldn't you have just claimed your result there and then collectively, as the thunder chat, said that there was *a*guilty on Datisi so that scum would not know that you were the cop?

Well, too late now lol

[Lukewarm]

I locked in a vote already in the gathering, so as of right now there will be someone to get power if we speed through. I'll see what Freedom and Dannflor vote and make my change as necessary.

Does anyone oppose Mistyx getting power?

I OPPOSE MISTYX RECEIVING POWERS BECAUSE OF THEIR REACTION TO MY CLAIM, IT LOOKED LIKE THEY KNEW MY GUILTY ON DATISI COULDN'T BE REAL

Oh.

I think I need more information lol

[Lukewarm]

WHY DON'T YOU TRY UNDERSTANDING HOW THE THEME WORKS BEFORE TRYING TO GIVE ME ADVICE ON MY PLAY

I started with the mod iso, so I think I got it.

We are all split between 4 hoods.

We had two masons, but both are dead.

There are leaders who vote to power up the apprentices, who also have their own pt to do that in.

Am I missing anything major?

[Lukewarm]

The bear's iso is hard on the eyes, but this seems reasonable.

I HEAVILY FOS EITHER FURTIVE OR DANNFLOR FOR KNOWING THAT KT WAS A TPR (THROUGH LEADER PT) AND NOT KNOWING THAT I HAD CLAIMED COP IN THE THUNDERCLAN PT ON D3.

[Lukewarm]

Decided to start with this day phase.

Bell, how could you.

But, why not bnd then?

If I had two votes, I'd be voting both of them.

Freedom, thaereasoning that a bunch of scum can't all be in the same clan doesn't work. Unless Ydra intentionally spread the scum out into different clans. One coin flip doesn't effect the the next coin flip.
Etc, etc, yada, yada.

I can't believe you wanted to vote me before I even got here, smh

[Lukewarm]

let's see, who is in wind clan and can read it to tell me who alisae's partners are.

ah, i see. boy next door and toogeloo.

guess i can throw that line of inquiry straight in the garbage.

i skimmed the first page of alisae's iso. it did not tell me much of anything and i did not enjoy it

Wait.

Is this homework that has fallen to me to complete?

Wow.

[Lukewarm]

I have read some number of pages, and my gut reaction so far was:

Bell, Dann, Ceph

Bear town but without the smiley face.

Freedom Penguin

[Lukewarm]

I'M GLAD TO SEE SS IS HELPING WITH DOING ALL THE VCA. I THINK THAT'S THE BEST THING TO DO IN THIS SITUATION WITH ALL THE FREE SCUM FLIPS WE GOT FROM TPRS.

I WOULD APPRECIATE IF SOMEONE WHO IS BETTER AT VCA THAN I AM LOOKS THROUGH SS POSTS TO MAKE SURE IT'S A NATURAL THOUGHT PROCESS AND EVERYTHING. MY INSTINCT LOOKING AT HIS POSTS IS THAT THEY'RE GENUINE, BUT MY TAKE IS BASED ON VIBES MORE THAN ANY LOGICAL INFERENCES.

I don't think that Datisi asking for a confirmation is AI though.
It could easily be Town wanting to know his action went through.

THIS IS FLEXING YOUR BOP-RANGE, FREEDOM, BUT I WILL TRY TO BE PATIENT.

LET ME BREAK IT DOWN FOR YOU:

TOWN SIDED REFRESHER:

DOESN'T CONTRIBUTE TO WIN CONDITION UNTIL MISTYX OR I GET AN EXTRA SHOT OFF AND COMMUNICATE TO THE HOOD/THREAD OUR RESULTS. REFRESHER FAILS TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING IF THE PLAYER THEY REFRESH IS KILLED BEFORE DELIVERING A RESULT. THEREFORE, YOU DON'T WANT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, THE THREAD TO KNOW WHETHER YOU DELIVERED A LIVE TARGET TO MISTYX OR SCCCRDBEAR, UNTIL THEY HAVE COMMUNICATED THEIR RESULTS.

SCUM SIDED REFRESHER:

DOESN'T CONTRIBUTE TO WIN CONDITION UNTIL THEY

SAFELY

(LIKE, THE TPR CAN BE KILLED BEFORE DELIVERING A REPORT WITH THE SHOT) REFRESH A POWERFUL TPR AND THE POWERFUL TPR COMMUNICATES TO THE THREAD THAT THE REFRESHER DID INDEED TARGET THEM. IF THE COP DIES BEFORE COMMUNICATING TO THE THREAD THAT DATISI TARGETED THEM, DATISI DOESN'T GET TOWN CREDIT FOR USING HIS ROLE.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, WHICH CONDITION IS DATISI PLAYING TOWARD THROUGHOUT D6?

i used it on the cop, bell

the amount of good faith i get from it wouldn't be enough as scum when i used it on the cop

oh fucking bless

bear, pls confirm you got the shit from me

bear pls were you targeted by me

I like this post

Datisi can get a

[Lukewarm]

OH YEAH, ALSO, I CLAIMED COP IN THE THUNDER CLAN PT, SO IT MAKES NO SENSE THAT "KITTYTACKY WAS TARGETED BECAUSE OF A LEAK IN THUNDERCLAN." IF THERE WERE A LEAK IN THUNDERCLAN I NEVER WOULD HAVE SURVIVED TO DELIVER MY REPORT ON MATHBLADE. WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS GUYS, COME ON.

Did you claim your target before you got this result?

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm replaces boy next door.

oh thank god

:waves:

[Lukewarm]

I have read day 6.

I find Freedom incredibly scummy, and would vote there immediately if not for the "cop did not die" thing, and I feel like I need more info on the timing of PR claims to actually know if that makes real sense as a reason to clear Freedom. Like, I get the base assumption that Scum in the ThunderClan would know there was a cop, and kill them. But I would like to know if the bear claim gated, if he claimed his target, and based on the knowledge avaliable Outside The ThunderClan, would Freedom killing the bear point back at someone in the thunderclan, so PP might have gone right for him?

And not just, when the cop claimed, but like, when Kitty claimed their role as well, and if there were any expected protectives at the time.

[Lukewarm]

Also, I do like the bear's point about Datisi, and I am not opposed to that elim from what I have seen. Him outing that he charged up the bear was pretty anti-town tbh.

[Lukewarm]

I have read the first 2 pages of the windclan PT, and I feel like Alisae is putting a lot of effort into trying to pocket Norwee in those pages. Would be surprised if that was scum theater tbh

[Lukewarm]

So guys, i'm trying to change my font and playstyle for this game. Tell me if you like it. <3

For reference, this post from Norwee came from a joke from Aliase in the pt, where she started joking with him about post limits making him have to type essays, him responding, her telling him that typing with comic sans is possibile on the site, him thinking it was funny. Him making this post on the main thread, her joking about it, and her bringing it back up and laughing when Bear voted norwee because of the font.

It was a LOT of banter back and forth.

[Lukewarm]

I just hit a point where Alisae seems to be trying to gently lead Norwee into a "FA" scum read, like. Trying to make it seem like it was his idea.

I will be baffled if the Norwee slot is scum with Alisae, so gonna put Furtiveglance down as town

[Lukewarm]

I have read the first 2 pages of the windclan PT, and I feel like Alisae is putting a lot of effort into trying to pocket Norwee in those pages. Would be surprised if that was scum theater tbh

I just hit a spot where Val came to this same conclusion, which helps me feel better about my own.

[Lukewarm]

ON A SIMILAR NOTE, YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT ABOUT ALISAE/NORWEE, HOWEVER, A COUNTERPOINT DOES EXIST ABOUT ALISAE'S SCUM PLAY AND HOOD WIFOM BULLSHIT:

The points you just quoted seem to be based on Mastina's take, when she had not read it herself.

Val is also there saying that it does not look like S/S.

I feel pretty confident in this being a scum/town pocket attempt. Like, the banter started strong, then transitioned into Alisaie trying to nudge Norwee to a miselim. Which I think are the same posts that Val is refering to here

Those takes were given after Alisea asked Norwee, and only Norwee, very leading questions that amounted to "What is your read on X player based on posts Y and Z", which as you can see from the conclusion given by themselves, focused on a very narrow subset of the player base

[Lukewarm]

Just hit the point where Shiro weighed in after Val asks if she thinks that it could be scum theater.

Her conclusion is that norwee and alisae are never scum together.

So, if they are then they managed to fool every single townie in this PT lmao

[Lukewarm]

I hit this point where Aliase seems to be trying to gently steer Val *away* from a scum read on Datisi, similar to how she appeared to be trying to steer Norwee *towards* a scum read on FA.

Like, very soft phrasing. He might be scum, but soft townie thing, soft townie thing, but maybe, but also not something she thinks should be killed Day 1.

Datisi is my best partner guess so far based on the first 9 pages of the WindClan

[Lukewarm]

I'm happy to sheep Lukewarm tbh

VOTE: datisi

You are ready to sheep someone who has read only this day phase in the main thread, and approximately one third of a PT?

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: boy next door

Man, is bnd really the best choice here.

I think so

... you were not even town reading my slot before I got here...

[Lukewarm]

Alisae's posting about Bell seem unlikely to come from a partner. I think she is trying to get Val to scum read Bell.

Less sure then my Norwee stance, but I was also already leaning town on Bell.

[Lukewarm]

I think I have made the most progress that I can tonight.

Just realized I am still voting the bear lol

UNVOTE:

[Lukewarm]

Oh, and I don't know if any prior slot owner said this, but I probably should never be powered up tbh

[Lukewarm]

im not scum

Then, why did you lie about not knowing that I was Thunder Leader?
You obviously knew that I was a Leader and that I was in Thunder.

I didn't lie

I had a brain fart

again why would I do this intentionally when it's very easy to call me out on it

So, you're saying that in the span of less than one minute, you forgot that I was Thunder Leader?
Though, I don't think you intentionally lied.

Freedom, is undercutting most points you try to make a staple of your town game?

Because you are doing that a lot, and it looks a lot like hedging.

[Lukewarm]

Hmm, just skimmed freedoms iso in this game + a couple others, and I wonder if I just natrually scum read his posting style.

I still don't like several of his posts this day phase, but my scum read there has softened somewhat

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: datisi

[Lukewarm]

I have been so busy the last few days, I did not get to read as much as I would have wanted :/

---

Bell
furtiveglance

---

Freedom Nero Cain Charloux

Reading Charloux's contributions for day 1, brought up this slot for me.

His theory in 230 seems very likely to come from town.

Spoiler:

I wish what happened in my hood stayed in my hood...
So 4 clans, 5 scum. My current theory is that scum are in 3 clans, and preventing them from knowing who the strays are is the key to this game.
That means no saying who the clan members are and no saying who the leaders are.

I wish what happened in my hood stayed in my hood...
So 4 clans, 5 scum. My current theory is that scum are in 3 clans, and preventing them from knowing who the strays are is the key to this game.
That means no saying who the clan members are and no saying who the leaders are.

How do you know there are multiple strays?

It's a theory based on Titus claim, the number of people in my pt and the details of my role.
3 more people have yet to post, and we can't confirm that everybody who posted is a member of a clan.

The other leaders should be able to piece together why i made that theory.

Several people commented on it at the time, but also, having seen Frozen Angel's leader Role PM, I feel like I can discern exactly how he got to there.

You are a leader, and speak for your Clan. You have access to the Gathering PTs, which may be accessed here. During the day, you may not speak within this thread. Instead, you may cast a vote for the cat who you wish to grant a warrior ceremony, awarding them with their warrior name and activating any powers that they may have. During the night, you may speak with your fellow leaders.

Appears to me that he got a working theory that they needed to target strays for the warrior ceremony.

It is both a fairly reasonable theory to come from town!him trying to figure out how he was supposed to use his leader ability, while also wrong enough that I don't think that scum would even think about it lol.
[Aall three flipped scum have an apprentice ability means that they would already know more about the functionality of the warrior ceremony]


Something_Smart-

Reading first part of Day 1, I saw this read from him that struck me as likely to come from town

UNVOTE: Charloux

It's a theory based on Titus claim, the number of people in my pt and the details of my role.
3 more people have yet to post, and we can't confirm that everybody who posted is a member of a clan.

This post seems pretty town. Generally I see scum being too afraid to vaguely reference their role like this, because it requires planning out a specific fakeclaim and committing to it. (And it's pretty hard to retroactively come up with a fakeclaim that matches a soft like this.)

I think that it is a good reason for his read to have evolved here, while also not being the easy out if he was just looking for a way off the wagon. "The Easy Out" being agreeing with other people saying that Charloux's theory in 230 was moonligic-y enough that it was likely to come from town, and instead SS has a more novel thought that other people had not expressed that made me feel like SS was actively trying to discern Char's alignment while reading here.

I also liked his (incorrect) reason to town read Shiidaji in 475. Both feels like a Real Though, but also a point that he did not make until asked, where if they were partnered I would think he would want to make that point for the benefit of making the point.

---

That leaves me with a PoE of :
flow trap
Dannflor
Cephrir


On a game balance stand point, I feel like one of the leaders kind of needs to be scum tbh, so my money is on Dan.

[Lukewarm]

For mass claim, I am a 3 shot neighborizor (once warrior ceremonied)

[Lukewarm]

Bell didnt read the last page of the game, smh

[Lukewarm]

I was saying that seeing you post a claim order with me and furtive as the final 2, when me and furtive claimed 2 posts and 4 posts prior to your claim order was funny to see.

Are you saying that that is just your reads list, and generally want us to claim in order from scum -> town?

If you I am curious about your placement of both me and Ceph

[Lukewarm]

When I got here you were scum reading my slot, or at least wanting to vote it

Spoiler:

Decided to start with this day phase.

Bell, how could you.

But, why not bnd then?

If I had two votes, I'd be voting both of them.

Freedom, thaereasoning that a bunch of scum can't all be in the same clan doesn't work. Unless Ydra intentionally spread the scum out into different clans. One coin flip doesn't effect the the next coin flip.
Etc, etc, yada, yada.

I can't believe you wanted to vote me before I even got here, smh

I didn’t like what I saw. *_*)>/

So, how did I get from there to your second strongest town read?

-----

Also, why are you leaning town on Ceph? Or at least, 3rd best on that list.

From my understanding, I thought that you lived your life in perpetual suspicion on Cephrir in any and all games. So, was hoping to hear why you have him where you do.

[Lukewarm]

Why are you against talking to me about your thoughts on the game?

You placed me some where that I did not expect. And you placed someone in my bottom 3 in your top 3, so I am trying to understand your read there

[Lukewarm]

Do you never talk reads with someone that you think is town?

Like?

[Lukewarm]

I suspect everybody but Furtive atm. So I’m just trying to get your perspective and your positioning.

The “didn’t like what I saw” was a reference to your predecessor asking if we liked what we saw because they weren’t posting anything beyond criticizing bear for fake claiming.
I was very neutral on your predecessor.
And didn’t quite reach a conclusion.

I’m at work right now.

I took "If I had two votes, I'd be voting both of them" to be a stronger scum read then that tbh

But sure, BND's iso looked un-fun to play with

[Lukewarm]

It’s awkward when you ask me to lay out my reasoning before I can observe for any mistakes because now the electrons know I’m watching.

Oh.

"I'll explain after the claims" would have been an acceptable answer.

"Why do you even care" was always going to get further responses from me lol

[Lukewarm]

The ordering was also done with the intent to glean further information.
Cephrir and you are unlikely to flub a fake claim and I suspect danflorr heavily. So they should go first and after that I’m just looking for mistakes.

I was thinking about this and I feel like scum might've been provided fakeclaims, given a lot of Large Themes that I've seen seem to have provided them.

Did any of the flipped scum fake claim prior to their deaths?

Did they look like provided fake claims?

(If no one has those answers for me by the tike I get off work tomorrow, I might just hunt down the answers myself lol)

[Lukewarm]

Alrighty it's time for the fun part, right? :3

Everyone actually gets to talk about who to vote, right?

The complete lack of reads (or response to reads) coming from a slot who started the day saying this makes me think scum.

Currently thinking flow + Dann, and also am impatient with the slow roll on this claim process

[Lukewarm]

@Furtive have you back read any of the Windclan PT?

[Lukewarm]

see 276 alisae (scum) vs val, doesn't read like scum v scum

alisae/norwee feels acted

Can you explain the last part?

5021

norwee says that they read alisae because they were very helpful and they helped them, just doesn't feel like a real thought, at least so early in the game, I'm of course reading this knowing that alisae is scum, like that's the start but if you keep reading it keeps happening

It feels NAI to me.
Though it depends on what was in their hood.
Luke, if you don't mind, can you tell us what Alisae had said to Norwee at the time 284 was posted?

It feels NAI to me.
Though it depends on what was in their hood.
Luke, if you don't mind, can you tell us what Alisae had said to Norwee at the time 284 was posted?

Norwee and Ali talked a lot in the PT prior to that point. like 3 full pages of back and forths with only a handful of posts from Val and a single post from Shiro saying they were there.

There was a bit where norwee said he was feeling lost in the game, and Ali and said she would help him, and started asking questions about his thoughts. She asked about the FA v Char thing early on with Char faking posting in his hood. With Ali grabbing quotes and asking Norwee's thoughts on them.

She then starts asking him to read Datisi and SS's isos.

I can see Norwee feeling that Ali had done a lot to help him get grounded in the game.

I said this yesterDay, but I feel like Ali looked like she was putting in a lot of effort towards pocketing Norwee in the hood.

[Lukewarm]

@Junko, here were my thoughts reading the Norwee / Ali interactions in the windclan

Spoiler:

I have read the first 2 pages of the windclan PT, and I feel like Alisae is putting a lot of effort into trying to pocket Norwee in those pages. Would be surprised if that was scum theater tbh

So guys, i'm trying to change my font and playstyle for this game. Tell me if you like it. <3

For reference, this post from Norwee came from a joke from Aliase in the pt, where she started joking with him about post limits making him have to type essays, him responding, her telling him that typing with comic sans is possibile on the site, him thinking it was funny. Him making this post on the main thread, her joking about it, and her bringing it back up and laughing when Bear voted norwee because of the font.

It was a LOT of banter back and forth.

I just hit a point where Alisae seems to be trying to gently lead Norwee into a "FA" scum read, like. Trying to make it seem like it was his idea.

I will be baffled if the Norwee slot is scum with Alisae, so gonna put Furtiveglance down as town

I have read the first 2 pages of the windclan PT, and I feel like Alisae is putting a lot of effort into trying to pocket Norwee in those pages. Would be surprised if that was scum theater tbh

I just hit a spot where Val came to this same conclusion, which helps me feel better about my own.

ON A SIMILAR NOTE, YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT ABOUT ALISAE/NORWEE, HOWEVER, A COUNTERPOINT DOES EXIST ABOUT ALISAE'S SCUM PLAY AND HOOD WIFOM BULLSHIT:

The points you just quoted seem to be based on Mastina's take, when she had not read it herself.

Val is also there saying that it does not look like S/S.

I feel pretty confident in this being a scum/town pocket attempt. Like, the banter started strong, then transitioned into Alisaie trying to nudge Norwee to a miselim. Which I think are the same posts that Val is refering to here

Those takes were given after Alisea asked Norwee, and only Norwee, very leading questions that amounted to "What is your read on X player based on posts Y and Z", which as you can see from the conclusion given by themselves, focused on a very narrow subset of the player base

Just hit the point where Shiro weighed in after Val asks if she thinks that it could be scum theater.

Her conclusion is that norwee and alisae are never scum together.

So, if they are then they managed to fool every single townie in this PT lmao

[Lukewarm]

@Furtive have you back read any of the Windclan PT?

A bit, no conclusions really

You have access to a PT with two flipped scum, that most of the playerlist does not have access to, and you gained no thoughts that you felt worth mentioning in the main thread?

[Lukewarm]

I kind of expect this to not be that convincing to most people, but if there was a player here whose play I would most accurately describe as 'going through the motions', it's Dannflor. It felt like prior to the point I posted 724, he was making posts to give the appearance of doing things, but it wasn't really building to anything useful, just the occasional stray read or question, nothing showing any depth of thought, pretty trivial to fake. Since his v/la ended he's dropped a few walls, but the thig I have to question is

why

he chose to write thosee walls - it's three towncases on Datisi, SCRDBEAR, and fire. And while I think those are

fine

reads to have I question why Dann feels the need to post about those reads in particular - I think SCRD and fire in particular are close to consensus townreads and no one actually needs to read anything. The Datisi one is at least more relevant in the fact that several people are scumreading Datisi so I

could

see town making that defense but the placement of it in the rest of his body of work still feels unnatural to me - it feels more broadly like he's positioning himself to be 'correct' on Datisi rather than doing anything else.

It doesn't really feel like he has scumreads he actually cares about. The thing is, I feel like by his questioning, he should be skeptical of me, and he placed me as a scumlean in his reads list, but he also seems to have latched on to my kittytacky scumread way too easily. And I don't believe that town, who is suspicious of a players, sees that player scumcasing someone and decides they're okay with the case. I'd expect him to show a little more skepticism if he was actually suspicious of me. I've noticed that when I'm wrong on a scumread Day 1 scum pretty frequently latch on to my push and the way he progressed from defending kittytacky to starting to agree with me felt unnatural - like he wanted to be able to push the wagon but not look opportunistic in doing so. By comparison, look at how much he's putting out on his towncases versus his scumreads - 854 and 856 are effusive. 901 is pretty empty by comparison, and the reasons are all pretty generic. It doesn't really feel like a read he actually believes in. In my experience, while it's reasonably easy for scum players to fake believable sounding townreads - because after all, they know who is town and will always be correct in their reasoning - it's a lot harder for even good scum players to fake believable scumreads. They don't actually have that internal thought process, the drive to find scum, and in general townies are much more inventive with how they try to find reads while scum just repeat cliches. And that's what dann's scumreads feel like to me.

There's other stuff too but it's related to hood stuff so I don't know how persuasive it would be - his posts in there felt pockety in that he was townreading people rather early for rather simplistic things and it felt more like he was trying to get in their good graces than actually sort them. It's also a case where Datisi and S_S are practically trying to rip each other's throats out, mastina at least suspects s_s, and Dann has just been kind of...there, and it feels like he's more trying to stay out of the fray with how he's been acting. Again, obviously I can't show you this stuff so I don't expect it to be convincing, but I think it's important that people know it's there. Do I actually think this game yeets Dann Day 1? Probably not, but he's probably the player I feel is most likely to be scum right now.

This post makes me think that Dann and Junko are not partnered, which would mean my current solve is wrong. Which is sad.

[Lukewarm]

I am starting to think that Dann might be a mistake.

I may be projecting my own Game Feelings onto him, but I just feel like Scum!Dann would not just... be completely absent this day phase, with the amount of suspicion on him. Like, I know that real life is a thing, but I feel like if he were scum with such a demanding real life scenario that does not let him engage at all with the day, he would be more likely to rep out then just... leave his partner hanging for the day.

On the other hand, I have steadily grown more suspicious over JunkoChan's slot. Flow Trap was already a sinking read, and then her catch up has felt inorganic to me. There was a level of feeling like she was setting out with the goal of town reading me in the way she interacted with Val, but also the way she interacted with her scum read on Bell early on felt acted.

Clearest example imo is the Question / Response of 5040 which felt focused on Making A Point about Bell that it missed that in the very Vote Count she quoted, the majority of the surviving slots were on Mastina.

FINAL VOTE COUNT

[11]

mastina

: Shiro,

Dannflor

, fireisredsir,

Val89

,

Bell

, PenguinPower,

NorwegianboyEE

, Alisae, Titus, Marashu, Mistyx

That is 4 out of the 7 Not!junkochan slots still alive on Mastina, and there does not seem to be any form of deeper thought put into thinking about that, despite her having A Thought that led her to check the vote count to begin with.

Again, more focused on Making The Point that Bell called mastina town, then voted there, then thinking about why he voted there or why half the remaining players did either.

And even makting That Point, she does not do the follow up on it look for when Bell's read changed. She made the point, then went back to reading the game chronologically, which felt very ?? to me as well.

[Lukewarm]

I also feel like it is convenient that Dann has landed as her strongest scum read, given the current game state.

I feel like this point is purposefully narrowly framed, and misleading, while buried in the depths of a wall post.

dann drops the read on catboi entirely, or at least for a few pages and pushes a mastina wagon? because aalisae said she was bored of big posts????? excuse me?

Here is Alisae's casing leading up to Dann deciding to vote Mastian, at the point where Junko is reading.

Spoiler:

This post is wierding me out talking about how wagons can off someone and numbers and all that. why not focusing on the votes and reasonings and instead on the ability of players to rally others against another player?

Partially because I'm demonstrating what a scum thought process from me would look like?
-Bell's "reasoning" for voting Norwee is that mastina had a 97.something% read. It looked like the reasoning for the vote was that they were rallied by mastina. That is the reasoning at the time.
-Kitty's "reasoning" for voting Norwee was they supposedly looked at mastina's case and went "yep, this is what I want to do." They were rallied by mastina. That is the reasoning at the time.

FA the quote chain is a line that was snipped out of context.

If we were scum together I would probably just tell Norwee in a private topic to just not engage, just makes more sense not to. It's not like people are going to let mastina influence their actions or read her posts. Engaging doesn't do anything, if anything, probably makes mastina look more credible, and wastes posts.

It probably reads weirdly because the post was written about me speculating about what me and norwee would do as scum.

I'm saying that maybe mastina's Norwee push is the kind of thing I feel like scum would jump to like dogs to a bone and that's what ended up happening with the 2 players I mentioned? I'm basically saying that's what is happening if she is town. Mastina is the best flip in the game from my pov.

regardless, mastina is being so lazy with properly casing some of her reads but the ones she is explaining shows she is actually thinking about details. she also explained in some short words her meta take on norwee even without examples so I find her analytical at that stage of game and it keep repeating about different reads of her at that point that makes me wonder if it can be fakable by scum mastina that consistently.

It is and it is something that is potentially happening in this mafia game.

why you think she is faking her reads?

My understanding of scum!mastina is she takes about what she knows about people and tries to twist the truth to suit whatever it is she wants.

mastina came into our hood and immediately locked town datisi/catboi/myself because we were vibing

idk what to make of that

Best flip in the game from my pov no cap. If people are down I am in to flashwagon it.

Alisae makes the following points:
Mastina's vote on Norwee is sus,
Mastina looks like she is faking her reads
Mastina is twisting the truth of peoples meta to justify her scum reads.

Dann chimes in that Mastina's posts in their hood were odd, and Alisae says she thinks it is a good wagon.

Dann votes, followed quickly be Alisae and Norwee.

And junko summarized all of that as:

dann drops the read on catboi entirely, or at least for a few pages and pushes a mastina wagon? because aalisae said she was bored of big posts????? excuse me?

Which feels purposefully phrased to make Dann's vote on Mastina look scummier.

[Lukewarm]

I also find it strange that Junko openly quotes the points where Dann/Ali/Norwee become a voting block, with it all three times that Junko referencing being Dann votes, Ali follows without questioning if scum would avoid being such a voting block vs whether scum Ali would be following a town!dann. Which is my take on reading it now that it has been brought up.

Spoiler:

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: Mastina

----

VOTE: kittytacky

VOTE: Kitty
Norwee abandon ship

----

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: mastina

I am gonna come out and say that I have information about Marashu, we should not yeet them.

We do not have a lot of time left which is why I am coming out with that right no, to prevent any quick yeet.

You can neglet trusting me but it is what it is.

I am not going to disclose said information unless things become too ugly.

Alright then.
VOTE: Mastina

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: Junkochan

[Lukewarm]

I also find it strange that Junko openly quotes the points where Dann/Ali/Norwee become a voting block, with it all three times that Junko referencing being Dann votes, Ali follows without questioning if scum would avoid being such a voting block vs whether scum Ali would be following a town!dann. Which is my take on reading it now that it has been brought up.

Spoiler:

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: Mastina

----

VOTE: kittytacky

VOTE: Kitty
Norwee abandon ship

----

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: mastina

I am gonna come out and say that I have information about Marashu, we should not yeet them.

We do not have a lot of time left which is why I am coming out with that right no, to prevent any quick yeet.

You can neglet trusting me but it is what it is.

I am not going to disclose said information unless things become too ugly.

Alright then.
VOTE: Mastina

1 i did question if Dann!scum team would be that obvious to make a theatre around dann because of what i said after s_s_s being Ali fire dann seems like a stretch but idk maybe?

And then you still landed on Dann being your strongest scum read is literally my point....

2 timing around the Datisi vote is what actually made me read things out of order because the timing is too perfect and Dann hammered that vote

Not sure what this is in reference to

3 i didn't said all those votes are from Dann I said the same voting block repeated out of thin air

I didn't say that you said that ?

So all in all i think you are reading my posts wrong and misreping them or idk what you are doing Luke

I don't understand any of your responses in response to what I said tbh.

[Lukewarm]

You are mis-parsing that sentence

I also find it strange that Junko openly quotes the points where Dann/Ali/Norwee become a voting block, with it all three times that Junko referencing being Dann votes, Ali follows

I was summarizing the voting order for all three voting block as "Dann votes, Ali follows"

[Lukewarm]

As I read it, your line seemed fairly disconnected from the voting block, since it appeared after 12 quotes of a long back and forth between fire and ali about dann v catboi. So no, I did not read that as a reference to the voting block tbh.

Spoiler:

dann drops the read on catboi entirely, or at least for a few pages and pushes a mastina wagon? because aalisae said she was bored of big posts????? excuse me?

would you mind explaining your town read on mastina, catboi

would you mind explaining your town read on mastina, catboi

I thought that her reads made sense for her mainly in the fact that I disagreed with her scumreads

catboi says he townreads mastina and dann is like okay cool beans

and then alisae and fire have this exchange:

the catboi/dann thing is interesting ig. it feels like they're both kinda puffing their chests up a lil bit, maybe just bc it's all very... cordial? it feels like there's a slight lack of. something. behind the posts, intensity or conviction maybe. some of it feels a bit like writing for the sake of writing rather than like, a true reflection of a passionate scumread of the heart

that could just come from being 2 good players early on in the game who are aware that even if they find the other to be suspicious so far, it's hard to be confident in a read, so idk

i kinda still am more nervous about catboi of the two but it could be a playstyle thing that im not used to

I tend to think their catboi is a different playstyle and I dunno if they do it purposely or I just don't understand it but I think it slightly controls for the approach.

This is basically correct fwiw, I attempt to play differently on different alts. Nice of you to notice.

like i think this is probably part of it bc i mostly townread him when he's more in vibey casual less-wall-y mode and that's probably just more what im used to

the catboi/dann thing is interesting ig. it feels like they're both kinda puffing their chests up a lil bit, maybe just bc it's all very... cordial? it feels like there's a slight lack of. something. behind the posts, intensity or conviction maybe. some of it feels a bit like writing for the sake of writing rather than like, a true reflection of a passionate scumread of the heart

Could be theater

i thought of that but then i figured like... i would kinda expect them to be more performative on the aggression if it's theatre? like if they're doing it then might as well go all out

instead it sort of feels like neither really wants to fully step on the other's toes

which is rather polite of them and that sort of thing should probably be encouraged, so

i would kinda expect them to be more performative on the aggression if it's theatre? like if they're doing it then might as well go all out

What makes you think they have to be more performative about it?

I've seen Dann do theater before I don't remember it being at all performative but rather, and quite literally, a waste of everyone's time and did not really change any reads.

i would kinda expect them to be more performative on the aggression if it's theatre? like if they're doing it then might as well go all out

What makes you think they have to be more performative about it?

I've seen Dann do theater before I don't remember it being at all performative but rather, and quite literally, a waste of everyone's time and did not really change any reads.

maybe ig, it just kinda feels like if it was theatre then it was clearly orchestrated and way planned in advance, since catboi had his "secret spicy scumread" for a while to build up to it, and it just kinda feels to me like they'd go at it a little more?

i don't really know what dann scum looks like tbh though

are you saying you think this looks like how dann does theatre? what's your read on the two of them

It has occurred to me that Alisae hasn't played in a full year and their approach this game doesn't really reflect that at all, which is pretty confusing to me. They're confident they can read Norwe better than anyone else, but Norwe has been playing an additional year of mafia while they haven't. It doesn't make sense to me, but I actually don't think it's scummy. Just weird.

What is the ideal of me that you have in ur head?
I don't really have anything else to go off of other than what I know.
I feel like what I see is clearly in line with what I know of town!Norwee. I remember Norwee as scum being pretty aggro but I don't know how that developed but I also know that however that did develop, that's probably not what I am dealing with here? Seems more likely he's just town that's the simpler conclusion to come to right now and I imagine Norwee will only get easier to read as time goes on so I am happy to leave it at that.

--

maybe ig, it just kinda feels like if it was theatre then it was clearly orchestrated and way planned in advance, since catboi had his "secret spicy scumread" for a while to build up to it, and it just kinda feels to me like they'd go at it a little more?

i don't really know what dann scum looks like tbh though

are you saying you think this looks like how dann does theatre? what's your read on the two of them

Why would they go at it more and waste their own posts when no one cares?
I'm not necessarily saying it is theater, I didn't read because it looked fucking obnoxious, and you know what, maybe that's obnoxiousness is intentional, maybe it's not, it's not easy to tell with that posting and asking me to find out I would rather bang my head against a wall while drooling
I remember liking Catboi and Dann seems fine but they're also good scum players so it's not like something like this can't be theater

ok yea i mean i don't think its impossible to be theatre either

i don't really feel like that's the most likely option tho

I think its safe to say they're aligned with each other

I think its safe to say they're aligned with each other

idk if this is a serious take or not lol

if it is then what makes you say this given you said you didn't read it

what I meant by I didn't read it is I didn't read all teh wall posting in depth, what I did read is that it seemed like they were both pushing each other for being at arm's length, which makes me think they're aligned with each other

is this S_S_S back to back to back? idk

But even if that line is in reference to the voting block, I don't find a single "is this S/S/S" line thrown away with no conclusion all that compelling.

Like, even after you asked that question, you THEN made this post

page 52 dann after changing his vote a couple times swaps to mastina and is followed AGAIN by Alisae and norwee

With no alignment indicative statements.

Followed by having Dann as the bottom of your scum pile.

[Lukewarm]

Is there a reason that of all of the things that I said about you, the only thing you feel the need to respond to is "But I did stop and ask if this could be S/S/S?"

Because I said more then that, and this does not feel like a good faith response to everything that I said. To narrow in on a single sentence that you think you have something you can point back at to "prove" me wrong.

[Lukewarm]

Seeking replacement for Dannflor he can have the slot still if he returns before one is found.

The actual replacement happening is softening my stance that I want to save the Dann slot. Not because it makes me think he is more likely to be scum, but simply because forcing yet another replacement into this game feels pretty sad.

[Lukewarm]

I claimed my role before, but skipped the flavor

Crowpaw/crowfeather 3 shot neighborizor

[Lukewarm]

Functionally, it is a role that proves that you are the role you claimed.

"You can't accuse me of fake claiming" basically

Regardless of the alignment of the person with the role

[Lukewarm]

Yeah, I still think that Junko is scum, and my top choice for elimination.

@Bell, your solve was Dann+Junko, lets do Junko first, and then we can debate if they were actually partnered later

[Lukewarm]

I meant that as a collective, "the town," we

[Lukewarm]

Yeah, I still think that Junko is scum, and my top choice for elimination.

@Bell, your solve was Dann+Junko, lets do Junko first, and then we can debate if they were actually partnered later

Clarification i'm not mad at you or your read Even tho i know You are wrong, is unrelated to this game

But ok, final thoughts it's between s_s Dann and ceph

Peace.

No worry that I am scum pushing you get me and a partner to 2 v 4 Melo?

[Lukewarm]

Or freedom, who followed me?

[Lukewarm]

I read your posts, I was asking if the recent actions swayed you or opened up paranoia

[Lukewarm]

What do you think it means for Danns alignment that both ceph and ss posted without saying anything about either wagon with you and Dann currently existing as dueling wagons?

[Lukewarm]

Dueling wagons, both at 2 votes, with all 4 votes coming from people you think are town

[Lukewarm]

What?

[Lukewarm]

Hey Luke is there some reason you want to save Danflorr other than that you would expect that no matter what was going on with them they would absolutely post something if they were scum?

I dont think that Dann and catboi were partnered after reading their wall off at each other day 1, and of the two, I think that Junko is more likely the scum between the two

[Lukewarm]

Don't vote JunkoChan, vote with us cool people on Dannflor

Do you TR Junko?

Yes, fairly strongly. I'm surprised they have even 2 votes.

Want to put more words to this? lol

Is this solely based on Junko, or were you thinking that the slot was town before the rep?

[Lukewarm]

Would strongly suggest no longer giving anyone powers at this point.
Based on the claims no benefit could come of it and you're more likely to give a buff to scum than town.

Can you explain this?
I feel like Luke's role has no real benefit to scum unless he wants to pocket people.
Ceph, as scum, can confirm himself. (I see no point why this will help scum.)
Junko, as scum, can prevent any further Vig shots. (Though, since you already shot Penguin, this is useless.)
S_S, as scum, can prevent Town from doing things on odd Nights.
So, as long as we don't activate Junko and S_S, we have no reason to fear scum gets buffed.

You are assuming that me and ceph are telling the truth in this post, while Bell is hedging against the possibility of one of us secretly being a Super Powerful Scum Role.

[Lukewarm]

With your correction, that the also applies to Junko lol

[Lukewarm]

Hey Luke is there some reason you want to save Danflorr other than that you would expect that no matter what was going on with them they would absolutely post something if they were scum?

I dont think that Dann and catboi were partnered after reading their wall off at each other day 1, and of the two, I think that Junko is more likely the scum between the two

...K.

I mean, I have made the case that they were not partnered, and made my case on Junko.

Do you actually want to engage with why I think this, or just post this?

[Lukewarm]

Would strongly suggest no longer giving anyone powers at this point.
Based on the claims no benefit could come of it and you're more likely to give a buff to scum than town.

Can you explain this?
I feel like Luke's role has no real benefit to scum unless he wants to pocket people.
Ceph, as scum, can confirm himself. (I see no point why this will help scum.)
Junko, as scum, can prevent any further Vig shots. (Though, since you already shot Penguin, this is useless.)
S_S, as scum, can prevent Town from doing things on odd Nights.
So, as long as we don't activate Junko and S_S, we have no reason to fear scum gets buffed.

You are assuming that me and ceph are telling the truth in this post, while Bell is hedging against the possibility of one of us secretly being a Super Powerful Scum Role.

I guess that you could be right but only fire ever fakeclaimed and both you and Ceph can have your role confirmed if we can eliminate scum today.
Junko could be fakeclaiming though as they can just choose not to kill and pretend to have saved somebody.

With us being this close to Melo, not giving me or ceph a power is probably smart.

Something like a scum!Vig could actually cost us the game, and there if very little benefit for either of us acting.

Spoiler:

We are currently at 2v6, if we miselim today then tomorrow is Melo.
Over night me/ceph claim that we targeted who ever night killed, so our ability can't be proven. "sad"
Tomorrow we No Kill to get from Melo -> Elo

Scum normal night kill plus scum vig = we lose when we thought we were safe to go to Elo

Yes that seems incredibly unlikely, but also, there is not really a positive for activating either of us that I can think of

[Lukewarm]

So, I guess that maybe we just don't give ceremonies until one scum is left and then we give you and Ceph powers.
Then, nobody gets powers afterwards.
Does this sound like a good plan?
(Assuming, scum doesn't go and NK both you and Ceph. Or I have bad reads.)

If either of us had useful abilities, it would probably be worth considering activating us.

But like... neither of us actually do anything lol

[Lukewarm]

Based on the scum flips we have so far it's likely that their abilities benefit their team more constructively than the current claims.

As for responding in full, I'm just considering it. It feels slightly odd that you're including that because you don't think A and B are partners and you feel that B is more likely to be scum that we should kill B.
But I don't really understand why you're presenting that they don't appear to be aligned at all currently It feels unnecessary.

I mean, that is how I came to my decision to vote Junko.

Like, I had Junko+Dann as my solve earlier, and so I did not really care which was killed first, and was down for the Dann elim because he was part of my solve.

Then I read a portion that made me think that it was not junko + dann together, and that is what led me to evaluating between the two of them.

On his own I think that Dann is fairly scummy

[Lukewarm]

@SS and @Ceph

Do yall actually have Opinions on who we should be killing today?

[Lukewarm]

I'm having trouble with Junko's posts and whether they make emotional sense or not.

I don't think that they do.

[Lukewarm]

I'm having trouble with Junko's posts and whether they make emotional sense or not.

I don't think that they do.

Go on

A big part of my reason for saying that was the fact that she was not voting, but she just said that she thought she was, so :shrug:

But what I was thinking was that from her POV is that she has 4 town reads.

Two of them are voting her top scum read.

Two of them are voting her, and one of them has actively said that they would considered compromising to her top scum read.

Even if she is frustrated that I am scum reading her, it did not make sense for her to throw in the towel instead of just... pushing for the Dann elim. It felt like "I'm mad that you are misreading me" should not have stopped her from voting there, and the only reason I could think that she was not voting was to avoid the appearance of being survivalistic.

-----

Other reactions that I did not like were her stating that she thought that my stated reasons for scum reading her came from twisting her words / misrepping her / are bs -- but not actually re-evaluating me

So all in all i think you are reading my posts wrong and misreping them or idk what you are doing Luke

so You saying i didn't is bs

Like, this feels incredibly disconnected from thinking I am definitely 100% town here. In a, if she is this sure that I am town, then she would not think this, or if she did think this, she would be re-evaluating me, but isnt.

And even when I stopped to see if she was re-evaluating, her response was

I don't think you are scum, i don't think Freedom is scum, You didn't even read my posts...

Which feels more likely to come from someone who is focused on keeping their reads consistent in their iso, then someone who is uninformed of my alignment and having to react to new things from me since the last time they stated a read.

---

And finally this on:

What do you think it means for Danns alignment that both ceph and ss posted without saying anything about either wagon with you and Dann currently existing as dueling wagons?

*sigh*

let's pretend im still interested

Dann is afk and apparently has been afk for a while I guess 1 could be bussing for town cred

Really hard to believe that this is a real take coming from someone who is actually thinking about who is scum in this game.

Like, this is about Ceph and SS, the dynamic non-voting duo... and she seems to think that 1 of them could be "bussing for town cred".... some how?

And I would love for you to open up the thread and pull any quote from Ceph or SS, and tell me what would lead her to having this as a Real Thought, because I am struggling to see this as a Real Thought

[Lukewarm]

Did bell express any thoughts about your alignment during the night?

[Lukewarm]

I would also love to hear from the duck

[Lukewarm]

How much of the game did you manage to read over the night?

[Lukewarm]

[nor,bnd,lukewarm]

That is not the slot breakdown

I am [Val, bnd, luke]

Furtive is [norwee, toog, furtive]

[Lukewarm]

How much of the game did you manage to read over the night?

er like, most of it, in disconnected chunks

any reason in particular for this question

It seemed odd that the basis for sorting my slot in your posts were revolving around Val's interactions with Ali instead of me, yesterday, single handedly stopping your slot from being eliminated and killing Junko instead.

Seems like the More Alignment Indicative Thing lol

So I was trying to see if you had read that part of the game yet.

[Lukewarm]

Did bell express any thoughts about your alignment during the night?

He said I was town, but me telling you that now is not going to help anything

Did he give a reason for changing, because you seemed to be in his PoE yesterday

[Lukewarm]

No one, honestly :/

Maybe freedom for charloux

Wow

[Lukewarm]

I am really struggling to see how anyone has me anywhere other then their single highest town read right now tbh, so seeing both of you not have me there is pretty shocking ngl

[Lukewarm]

But also, neither of you are like shading or pushing me, so it really doesnt matter I guess, but I am surprised lol

[Lukewarm]

yes lol

[Lukewarm]

honestly, i don't think scum!you has a responsible action plan

other

than bussing junko.

This is really really not true. If I Was scum with Junko, your slot dies yesterday 100% of the time and me and junko are both walking into Melo today.

Like, the game was literally at 2 votes on Dann, 0 votes on Junko, when I started actively campaigning to change that.

[Lukewarm]

Freedom is my strongest town read as well, if anyone was wondering

[Lukewarm]

I am really struggling to see how anyone has me anywhere other then their single highest town read right now tbh, so seeing both of you not have me there is pretty shocking ngl

You replaced into a slot that needed rehabilitation and you rehabilitated it but I haven't shaken yet the idea that you were in a spot where you had to do this

Then you and I have wildly different views of the game state, because a Melo with me and junko both alive, needing 1 miselim inside of you or SS to seal out the game seems like it would have been a cake walk of a game lol

[Lukewarm]

Anyways, I am largely just spinning my wheels right now waiting for Freedom to check into our shiny new hood to talk about something

(yes the leaders gave me a ceremony despite the convo yesterday lol)

[Lukewarm]

So, I guess I won't wait for Freedom to check in, because I was basically asking him for a sanity check on my growing suspicion on Furtive -- and you both just voiced suspicon on him.

I felt like reading furtive and junko, they looked partnered. But I also really felt like reading Norwee and ali in the wind clan looked unpartnered, and I was struggling to figure out which instinct to trust more tbh.

@the Worst, I compiled my thought about the wind clan pt here if you want to see those:

@Junko, here were my thoughts reading the Norwee / Ali interactions in the windclan

Spoiler:

I have read the first 2 pages of the windclan PT, and I feel like Alisae is putting a lot of effort into trying to pocket Norwee in those pages. Would be surprised if that was scum theater tbh

So guys, i'm trying to change my font and playstyle for this game. Tell me if you like it. <3

For reference, this post from Norwee came from a joke from Aliase in the pt, where she started joking with him about post limits making him have to type essays, him responding, her telling him that typing with comic sans is possibile on the site, him thinking it was funny. Him making this post on the main thread, her joking about it, and her bringing it back up and laughing when Bear voted norwee because of the font.

It was a LOT of banter back and forth.

I just hit a point where Alisae seems to be trying to gently lead Norwee into a "FA" scum read, like. Trying to make it seem like it was his idea.

I will be baffled if the Norwee slot is scum with Alisae, so gonna put Furtiveglance down as town

I have read the first 2 pages of the windclan PT, and I feel like Alisae is putting a lot of effort into trying to pocket Norwee in those pages. Would be surprised if that was scum theater tbh

I just hit a spot where Val came to this same conclusion, which helps me feel better about my own.

ON A SIMILAR NOTE, YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT ABOUT ALISAE/NORWEE, HOWEVER, A COUNTERPOINT DOES EXIST ABOUT ALISAE'S SCUM PLAY AND HOOD WIFOM BULLSHIT:

The points you just quoted seem to be based on Mastina's take, when she had not read it herself.

Val is also there saying that it does not look like S/S.

I feel pretty confident in this being a scum/town pocket attempt. Like, the banter started strong, then transitioned into Alisaie trying to nudge Norwee to a miselim. Which I think are the same posts that Val is refering to here

Those takes were given after Alisea asked Norwee, and only Norwee, very leading questions that amounted to "What is your read on X player based on posts Y and Z", which as you can see from the conclusion given by themselves, focused on a very narrow subset of the player base

Just hit the point where Shiro weighed in after Val asks if she thinks that it could be scum theater.

Her conclusion is that norwee and alisae are never scum together.

So, if they are then they managed to fool every single townie in this PT lmao

[Lukewarm]

@Lukewarm, thanks I did feel like it was fake interaction, maybe because i'm missing what happened in their hood

(I haven't read my hood btw) that shit is 30 pages long but I'm guessing from expereience that if something iomportant happened there it should be a reference to it in the OT so I'm not reading there for now

did you feel like junko really cared all that much about your response?

Junko's actual reaction to my points were very limited. Just what you pulled there, with the "maybe im missing what happened in the hood" really. What stood out to me, was that she just quietly dropped it, and slid him into her town pile later in 5121.

Which felt off to me. Neither sticking to her guns to keep the read, nor making a point of discussing the fact that the read was changing like she did with Bell.

[Lukewarm]

And on the other side, Furtive started pushing for the Dann elim to go through once Freedom and I started voting Junko.

Like he started there as a sheep vote

I'll vote with Bell for now, I could also vote for Cephrir or even Lukewarm

VOTE: Dannflor

Then after the junko votes started campaigning for it

Don't vote JunkoChan, vote with us cool people on Dannflor

And that was without having voiced a town read on any of [catboi, flow trap, junko] prior to that.

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Lukewarm is town

This needs explaining

see 276 alisae (scum) vs val, doesn't read like scum v scum

alisae/norwee feels acted

Quote the interaction then

what's your read on luke?

Sus, partly poe

He asks Norwee if he feels that he is on the same page I am and here I am going ??? because like what kind of question is that???

Trying to get out in front of it, I see.

I find the timing of Alisae soliciting opinions on my ISO more than a touch suspicious. I did ask Norwee if he agreed he was on the same page as Alisae, given that was the justification Alisea gave for townreading Norwee, indicating that I might be suspicious about that read, and almost immediately Alisea is here in main thread trying to advance a case on me.

For reference, since my clan affiliation has now been disclosed:

I mean it's mostly just me trying to get him to spew himself to me. I asked him about FA, Charloux, and Datisi and we seemed to reach similar conclusions.
If anything our only disagreement seemed to be on Charloux whom Norwee (understandably) fos' charloux.

Alisea didn't appear to give much of their own opinions, but I take from this that Alisae agreed with Norwee's takes on FA, and Datisi, but not Charloux, and that was enough to give Norwee a townread.

Those takes? That FA seemed pretty townie for calling out Charloux (while Alisea thinks Charloux is townie, since they are disagreeing with Norwees fos there), and Datisi was null.

Those takes were given after Alisea asked Norwee, and only Norwee, very leading questions that amounted to "What is your read on X player based on posts Y and Z", which as you can see from the conclusion given by themselves, focused on a very narrow subset of the player base; and I was very surprised to see Alisea give Norwee a townread on that basis, and I asked Norwee if he thought he was in agreement with Alisea. To be fair, the answer Norwee gave was 'yes', but I made no secret of the fact I had my suspicions there, and to see that quickly manifest in main thread as a case against me is to say the least.

VOTE: Alisea

Advance a case??? ok lmfao VOTE: Val
Rookie scum mistake to overreact to me expression my feelings on a fos.
Like do you self-consciously believe that a case was like coming onto you??? That's what I think is going on in the head of scum!you.
I did not vote you, and I asked Ceph "is this actually scum, or am I just reading everything as scummy"
But I am

advancing a case

on you???

Like, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Newer player rands wolf.
Newer player starts to feel like they are being suspected
Newer player overeacts and attacks the person in response to suspecting them
The person in return attacks them harder because the newer player is acting unnatural and unreasonably to the attacker.

I will humor you and your concerns though.

I find the timing of Alisae soliciting opinions on my ISO more than a touch suspicious. I did ask Norwee if he agreed he was on the same page as Alisae, given that was the justification Alisea gave for townreading Norwee, indicating that I might be suspicious about that read, and almost immediately Alisea is here in main thread trying to advance a case on me.

Ur question doesn't do anything. You just don't know what's going on because you haven't worked with Norwee to the extent I have. HE LITERALLY ANSWERED YOU YES.
If we're town we just see the same things. The best part is Norwee saw what I saw in FA's play without even knowing who the person is. That is TOWNIE.

--

Alisea didn't appear to give much of their own opinions, but I take from this that Alisae agreed with Norwee's takes on FA, and Datisi, but not Charloux, and that was enough to give Norwee a townread.

Those takes? That FA seemed pretty townie for calling out Charloux (while Alisea thinks Charloux is townie, since they are disagreeing with Norwees fos there), and Datisi was null.

Those takes were given after Alisea asked Norwee, and only Norwee, very leading questions that amounted to "What is your read on X player based on posts Y and Z", which as you can see from the conclusion given by themselves, focused on a very narrow subset of the player base; and I was very surprised to see Alisea give Norwee a townread on that basis, and I asked Norwee if he thought he was in agreement with Alisea. To be fair, the answer Norwee gave was 'yes', but I made no secret of the fact I had my suspicions there, and to see that quickly manifest in main thread as a case against me is to say the least.

Why would I give Norwee my own opinions if I am trying to sort his alignment?
I am trying to form a read on Norwee and encourage him to do the work. He expressed he was lost, so I guided him.
The goal was for me to see what conclusions he reaches and how he reaches him.

So i don’t believe this was malicious or unwarranted from Alisae.

I don't believe it was malicious either, but having asked those leading questions, for whatever reason, about a very narrow subset of players, and getting some (as I am sure you admit yourself) fairly weak and non-committal stances on 3 players; on which they admit to having disagree with you on 33% of that tiny sample, to say

Yes he is playing the game and I feel like we are on the same page when it comes to the topics we discussed

is reasoning 'left unexplained' is more generous that I think its deserving. Reasoning is given. It's just obvious crap - and I say again, the timing of Alisea's soliciting opinions on my own ISO in Main thread, directly after I had given an indication I wasn't buying what they were selling in clan chat, is suspicious.

I would actually like to add to the fact prior to his vote I felt like I saw all of these things and thought “I am scumreading this player for so many things is this guy actually scum?” Because even the list of concerns I told ceph was a bit too much for my tastes

Pedit: because he said he thought I was going to advance a case on him bro. If he is a villager why is he thinking about stuff like that and shouldn’t he just wait until I do form a case on him? If he was villager that seems like that would be the play here but instead he is just coming out of the gate panicked, saying I am going to advance a case on him. It’s fucking weird.

Like idunno I don't get it, if he is town and genuinely thinks I am going to build a case on him, why doesn't he just wait to see how the read develops, or even wait for me to respond to Ceph. It just doesn't add up.

And give up the ability to prosecute someone who is, to me, pretty obvious scum? No thanks.

You seem to be labouring under a misapprehension here. I have you in my sights now.

The beauty or rolling town is that, even if I fail to convince enough of the others that I am the one that goes down today, sheer numbers means my faction can afford my mislim much more than your faction can afford yours. I don't think it'll come to that, but that knowledge is all I need to throw myself in to the crossfire and bring attention to the two of us. You will rue the day you crossed me, she-cat.

this is not S_S

290

im not like super confident on it but i think he feels like town val to me

spewed town

I find this more convincing than your quote post above. Val likes a big spam contest with scumbuddies

But I've seen fireisredsir treat Town like this before

This was the first interaction that caught my eye, because it felt so... toothless.

Like Furtive was throwing a softball at Junko, and then did not really care much about what Junko actually had to say.

Like, 5036 and 5037 are the only real reaction furtive gives to the content of Junko's point (the rest is just vaguely establishing that I am in his POE), and it is so... non-specific. Not sure if its the right word. But, like a response that you could give with out actually reading any of the many posts that Junko pointed to to make her point, and there does not appear to be much by the way of using this interaction to try to form a read on her

[Lukewarm]

that being saiddddd i don't have many choices other than indulging you, so using freedom as a sanity check is a solid idea.

My original thought was that I would talk to Freedom, because he was the person I was most sure is town.

But then both you and ceph voiced suspicion, and one of you had to be town at a minimum. So was hoping to see both of you respond.

(Also, I am incredibly inpatient, and Freedom has not checked in yet lol)

[Lukewarm]

Sadly, you are the other slot that I would consider today.

I did not like Dann's interaction with me Day 6, and over the night I started to think that the Dann slot being non-existent would be a reasonable explanation for why Junko was so defeatist once thread momentum started turning on her. Because, once me and freedom called her scum, she really did just... give up. Which was fairly unexpected given the sheer amount of effort she had been putting into this game prior to that.

[Lukewarm]

if i had two bullets right now i guess i'd shoot furtive then myself. or honestly weirdly probably ss. this game is very surreal.
@luke hbu?

So, I guess you and I have the same two targets for those 2 bullets lol

[Lukewarm]

Where is our resident Pokémon?

[Lukewarm]

I dont even remember you asking for it tbh

[Lukewarm]

Bell and I were arguing for no one to get the ceremony at all, because if we were wrong on yesterdays elim we were walking into Melo today.

[Lukewarm]

if they have a scum vig for some reason they'd be outing by using it and still would not win, etc

I ran the scenario with a scum vig, and that possibility could have caused a lose on the "We no Elim to get from Melo to Elo" night, or forced us to push through in MElo because of the possibility.

But yeah, scum vig was unlikely.

[Lukewarm]

So.... here is the thing. I need for this game to be over, or my slot to be dead, in a fairly quick timeframe.

So, I kind of want to accelerate the pace of this game, incase we are wrong today, and then I am not night killed.

But like, it feels kind of shitty to be trying to get the pace of the game to match my personal schedule.

Is there anyone like, opposed to us speed running today -> Hopefully win.

If we don't win, speed run tomorrow with a No Elim to get us from Melo->Elo

And then, spending the time there if we make it that far?

Because, if we take our time today, and I am alive on that elo day, I don't think that that would be a good final day for us.

On the other hand, it seems to me like the optimal scum night kills from here to Elo are Freedom+Me atp, so it might be a non-issue. So idk.

Thoughts?

[Lukewarm]

SS, do you have any opinions on who is the elim today?

[Lukewarm]

I wanted the day to be fast, I did not say it had to be fast on you. I am thinking.

[Lukewarm]

Do me a favor, and tell me when you started thinking that Junko slot was town and why

[Lukewarm]

What does Bell have to do with it?

[Lukewarm]

Actually, I see you mean because he voted Dann first.

But like. Bell's solve was Dann + junko

[Lukewarm]

Actually, I see you mean because he voted Dann first.

But like. Bell's solve was Dann + junko

Still realistic, theworst could just be efforting as scum. But I'm sick of Cephrir's air of doom

What is your take on SS?

[Lukewarm]

@Everyone

Can everyone please take a moment to tell me your thoughts, given this set up, if it makes more or less sense for there to be scum in the council?

[Lukewarm]

MUDCLAW

–

THE DARK FOREST

_⋆★⋆

[The Dark Forest]

You are a member of the Dark Forest, which seeks to eradicate the Clans and StarClan alike. The Dark Forest PT may be accessed here.

[WindClan]

You are a member of WindClan. You may access the WindClan PT here.

[Apprentice]

You begin the game as the apprentice Mudpaw. Any abilities that you may have will not be usable until you receive your warrior ceremony.

[Intimidation Tactics]

Tallstar picked a weak leader to rule WindClan after his death – and you won’t stand for it, or anyone who agrees with his choice. Once a night, you may target a cat. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn that cat's role. You have three uses of this ability.

You and all other members of the Dark Forest win when 50% parity with all living protectors of StarClan has been reached.

Please confirm your role and alignment via PM.[/align]

BREEZEPELT

–

THE DARK FOREST

[The Dark Forest]

You are a member of the Dark Forest, which seeks to eradicate the Clans and StarClan alike. The Dark Forest PT may be accessed here.

[WindClan]

You are a member of WindClan. You may access the WindClan PT here.

[Apprentice]

You begin the game as the apprentice Breezepaw. Any abilities that you may have will not be usable until you receive your warrior ceremony.

[Whispers of Hate]

Your father’s secrets haunt you. Your secrets will prove your worth. During the night, you may target a cat. Assuming no interference with your action, the moderator will anonymously send that cat a message of your choice (specified when you submit this action).

You and all other members of the Dark Forest win when 50% parity with all living protectors of StarClan has been reached.

Please confirm your role and alignment via PM.[/align]

REDWILLOW

–

THE DARK FOREST

[The Dark Forest]

You are a member of the Dark Forest, which seeks to eradicate the Clans and StarClan alike. The Dark Forest PT may be accessed here.

[ShadowClan]

You are a member of ShadowClan. You may access the ShadowClan PT here.

[Apprentice]

You begin the game as the apprentice Redpaw. Any abilities that you may have will not be usable until you receive your warrior ceremony.

[Bramble Nests]

Your training with other Clans taught you a few new tricks. On odd nights, any actions that target you, other than kills, will fail as if roleblocked.

[Belly Rake]

The Dark Forest refuses to train with sheathed claws. On even nights, you may target a cat. Assuming no interference with your action, that cat's active abilities will be blocked that night.

You and all other members of the Dark Forest win when 50% parity with all living protectors of StarClan has been reached.

Please confirm your role and alignment via PM.[/align]

[Lukewarm]

@Everyone

Can everyone please take a moment to tell me your thoughts, given this set up, if it makes more or less sense for there to be scum in the council?

I don't think Freedom is scum and I'm not

I am not asking about your read on anyone.

I am asking about set up spec

[Lukewarm]

HAWKFROST

–

THE DARK FOREST

[The Dark Forest]

You are a member of the Dark Forest, which seeks to eradicate the Clans and StarClan alike. The Dark Forest PT may be accessed here.

[RiverClan]

You are a member of RiverClan. You may access the RiverClan PT here.

[Apprentice]

You begin the game as the apprentice Hawkpaw. Any abilities that you may have will not be usable until you receive your warrior ceremony.

[Enforcer of the Dark Forest]

Your father, Tigerstar, was strong in the right ways. He’s taught you well. Should you perform the factional nightkill for the Dark Forest, it will become unstoppable and be unable to be blocked by any other means. You have two uses of this ability.

You and all other members of the Dark Forest win when 50% parity with all living protectors of StarClan has been reached.

Please confirm your role and alignment via PM.[/align]

[Lukewarm]

@Everyone

Can everyone please take a moment to tell me your thoughts, given this set up, if it makes more or less sense for there to be scum in the council?

I don't think Freedom is scum and I'm not

I am not asking about your read on anyone.

I am asking about set up spec

Why should there be a scum Leader? Do you really think it's too townsided to have all town deciding who can become PR?

I am asking you your opinion on the matter lol

[Lukewarm]

@Everyone

Can everyone please take a moment to tell me your thoughts, given this set up, if it makes more or less sense for there to be scum in the council?

i honestly have some trouble squaring how the setup is balanced with scum in the council, but did we ever get another explanation for the kittytacky kill? i forget

Why do you think that it would be less balanced that way?

[Lukewarm]

@Everyone

Can everyone please take a moment to tell me your thoughts, given this set up, if it makes more or less sense for there to be scum in the council?

i honestly have some trouble squaring how the setup is balanced with scum in the council, but did we ever get another explanation for the kittytacky kill? i forget

Why do you think that it would be less balanced that way?

what is to stop scum from shooting every significant source of town power

The pair of mason doctors that did not need to be activated?

[Lukewarm]

I voted your slot yesterday and re-evaluated after the cw flipped scum.

To be clear, I dont think that thinking about it as a counter wagon is very productive, since, at least from your PoV, both wagons were town motivated.

Votes on Dann were conf!town!Bell, and you

Votes on Junko were your current town reads, me and Freedom followed by conf!town Bell, then the self vote by Junko, hammer by Ceph.

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: The worst

[Lukewarm]

@Everyone

Can everyone please take a moment to tell me your thoughts, given this set up, if it makes more or less sense for there to be scum in the council?

i honestly have some trouble squaring how the setup is balanced with scum in the council, but did we ever get another explanation for the kittytacky kill? i forget

Why do you think that it would be less balanced that way?

what is to stop scum from shooting every significant source of town power

The pair of mason doctors that did not need to be activated?

they both needed to be alive to function, and they wouldn't know who to protect if leaders didn't out their targets to everyone

I did not realize that in reading their role. Where was that established?

[Lukewarm]

Would someone mind unvoting to get us off e-1, I am working on a wall post >.<

[Lukewarm]

Here is my thinking on the set up spec side (I also am working on a post about Furtiveglance AND about the worst, just starting here).

Every single flipped scum has been an apprentice, with no abilities unless they were activated.

Getting activated generally would mean "being the single strongest collective town read of the council." That feels like a shitty requirement for entry for scum to have any abilities to counterplay the cop/vig/docs of this game.

Lets go through a scenario assuming no town on the council.

Day 1:

The BEAR walks into the game and says "I AM A COP, BUT I NEED SOMETHING CALLED A WARRIOR CEREMONY TO GET ACTIVATED. ALL PROTECTIVES ON ME TONIGHT"

So now, an all town council activates him, the town doctor-masons drop a protect on him

This is a fully self contained series of actions from the town, that the scum has no way to interact with. They are unaware of the council or how the warrior ceremonies work, they have no access to the council PT to influence the decision, and the doctor masons are hidden.

And we just created a follow the cop set up, completely self contained by town actions, originating from what should be a bad play that scum can punish.

-----

Night 1

Arguably, from a PoV of 5 scum who are all apprentices, and therefore have no information about how the warrior ceremony even works, and just saw that cop claim they were the same thing, it *feels* like it would have been a fairly easy assumption that EVERY pr is an apprentice, and killing the cop is a SAFE shot. "Thanks for claiming dumbass" as they waste a shot into a protective. But sure, maybe they don't do that since one of them is a strong man.

-----


Now lets follow this through to

Day 2:

The BEAR claims their target and result. Lets benefit of the doubt this, and say that he hit town "MY RESULT IS THAT X IS CONFIRMED TOWN. I AM OUT OF SHOTS, SO THE PROTECTIVES SHOULD BE ON X NOW INSTEAD OF ME, SINCE MY DEATH JUST CONFIRMS MY RESULT"

Now the pair of doctor masons can plant their protective on the Cop Confirmed Townie, and the secret council can activate them and they be possibly be useful on top of just *being* the semi-immortal confirmed townie.

And facing this down, is a group of scum goons who do not even know how the warrior ceremony works, because no one actually had to say it out loud because it just *happened* as a result of a page one yolo claim.

They just have to fire at random outside of the claimed cop and the confirmed town repeatedly and pray they find the doctor out there Soon(tm)

(Surprise, killing the doctor confirms someone else town!)

---

The counter play options of the scum feel INCREDIBLY limited if they are off the council, to punish bad town plays like the above.

-----

Conversely, if they do have a member on the council, then they suddenly gain:

Knowledge of how the warrior ceremony works, and 25% control over its usage.

Knowledge of 3 additional townies, who are not-traditional PRs. Both to help with finding a doc, and with shooting the leader who most wont let them get abilities

That member can later angle for the scum to stop being goons at some point

[Lukewarm]

Okay, the Furtive in the room.

To start with, my original thoughts that norwee and ali were not partnered are still there, and heavily leaning towards me being hesitant on this. Val and Shiro had the same reaction to their hood play.

Next. Bell died.

Bell had Furtive as his single highest town read. I don't think that anyone would have batted an eye at me or freedom dying over bell after we were on Junko yesterday, so I think that the Bell kill points away from furtive.

I also feel like Furtive has been generally salty about his current wagon, but been doing very little to case an alternative option. Which feels like a pretty losing Strat for scum!him, and I have seen him as a Non-town role, pretty effectively make pushes. In datisi's cafe, his pushed on Ircher and Mala were some of the most stand out pushes of the game. ( I am aware that he was a SK that game, not group scum)


The point that everyone will hate (MOD WIFOM):

Spoiler:

Tallstar picked a weak leader to rule WindClan after his death – and you won’t stand for it, or anyone who agrees with his choice.

On the nose, for this to have been built into the scum role pm of someone who is partners with the current Windclan Leader

[Lukewarm]

Final. The Worst.

I already thought that Dann was hella scummy before he flaked. You can check back the iso.

Now. The night kill. YesterDay, Bell was arguing that dann was scum. I was arguing that Dann and Junko were not partnered. So, makes more sense to kill Bell (this is not a stand out point on its own, but comparatively to furtive, who would have likely wanted Bell to be here and pushing the worst, instead of me being here defending Dann)

-----

The most recent thing, that is what finally pushed me to voting

i feel like i have a really warped view of this gamestate, might be recency bias or something thanks to replacing in. wild.

VOTE: SS

at this rate i do think furtive is the better lim today buuuuut
i want this to flip red so once again ydrasse can glare from the sidelines, unable to post (legally not connection-wise this time) while i steal all the glory

general like, vca thoughts (sorry (i'm not sorry i'll never learn)) - scum are much more likely to self-vote in game-critical situations if they've been correctly bussed.
not sure if that really counts for junko's situation tbqh but i'm just like the tiniest bit wary of freedom today :I

Both of these come after I start making waves towards saying I think that there has to be scum in the council.

He stops voting Council Member A, and starts shading Council Member B [He is Council Member C]


He seemed fine having Freedom town locked, and killing Furtive prior to this point.

Like. Here is his Freedom progression, wrt me starting to build up to this

hi friends

i have something like,

duck
freedom
lukewarm (apparently dann disagreed p heavily with this bc he thought val's entire iso was ali-theatre)
ss
furtiveglance
cephrir

freedom is my strongest tr for sure

freedom is just rly towny i think

like, i think freedom is advancing the game in a constructive way, i think.

@Everyone

Can everyone please take a moment to tell me your thoughts, given this set up, if it makes more or less sense for there to be scum in the council?

hardclaim libra but my reads this hour are like,

tw
lukewarm
cephrir
freedom
ss
you

general like, vca thoughts (sorry (i'm not sorry i'll never learn)) - scum are much more likely to self-vote in game-critical situations if they've been correctly bussed.
not sure if that really counts for junko's situation tbqh but i'm just like the tiniest bit wary of freedom today :I

[Lukewarm]

I subscribed to the thread so I'd know when these dropped I hope you know him thrilled I am.

Thank you

Now die

[Lukewarm]

BTW I don't think anyone could have not shot bell last night lol, leaving him alive any longer would point to his reads having mistakes

I also find definitive statements like this about who scum could or could not have killed Night 7 suspect, given the worst has also repeatedly made statements about being hazy about the game state of Day 7.

i noticed that you were on point yesterday but didn't clock you being so significant, thanks for that!

mmhm mhm that's really validating because i was kind of wondering about windclan interactions given my fear of scum density in there

interesting - i'll bump my d7 reread up the priority list. i think assuming that dannflor of all people rolls over and that you can pull off another miselim without losing junko seems kind of ill-advisable. i think losing junko without correcting associatives a bit makes it very hard for you to survive endgame.

i feel like i have a really warped view of this gamestate, might be recency bias or something thanks to replacing in. wild.

scum are much more likely to self-vote in game-critical situations if they've been correctly bussed.
not sure if that really counts for junko's situation tbqh

To simultaneously present themselves such that they had not read enough of Day 7 to know of my contributions to junko's elim, not having read a post that I had just pulled form Day 7, saying they need to read day 7, stating a warped view of the game state, unsure how relevant "general" thoughts about selfvoting/bussing apply to the spectific example of Day 7.


Followed by stating definitively that no scum could have considered killing anyone other then Bell during Night 7.

The earlier posts make the the final point feel very disingenuous.

Conversely, if the worst is scum, I can see this as a real thought coming from someone who started their time in the game asking "Bell is normally so obv town by now, is he a mandatory kill atm" and proceeded to see that he was claiming himself cleared based on the vig shot and saw that he was on Junko's wagon, and came to the conclusion that he needed to kill Bell

[Lukewarm]

SS told me that Bell was like 99% clear bc of the vig shot, that wasn't an original thought. I can be hazy but have expected the vig to have been shot. Are you planning to engage with me or attempt to bury me? One of those is going to make d9 very hard.

I don't think that us talking is going to help me all that much currently, so largely trying to talking to other slots not named The Worst atp.

Sorry, I am aware that that is probably pretty frustrating for you (as either alignment tbh).

If I am wrong, I will take your Ceph town case under advisement, so if you are town feel free to leave things for prosperity. I know that some people don't think people care about dead people's reads, but I do.

[Lukewarm]

I am most interested in hearing from the rest of the PL about my posts. Both the council things, and furtive, and you.

[Lukewarm]

you expect to be alive to honour the posterity thoughts?

Immediately after vocally leading the elimination on a townie? Probably

In that scenario, the other widely town read slot (freedom) seems like the natural choice to go first imo

[Lukewarm]

I am a 3 shot neighborizor when activated

[Lukewarm]

Ceph claimed fruit vendor

[Lukewarm]

noticing something deeply funny

Can you put into words what you were describing as "deeply funny" here?

[Lukewarm]

Do you think that scum!SS would be more or less likely to fake claim odd night role blocker, when there was a scum even night role blocker?

And do you think it makes sense for the two of them to be opposite nights and opposite alignments?

I just checked the wiki on the two characters (TawnyPaw was the claim by SS, and JunkoChan was Redwillow) and it seems like they are not particularly related outside of both being shadownclan.

Redwillow is not mentioned at all in Tawnypaw's wiki entry, while tawnypaw gets a throw away line in redwillows about going on patrol together once

[Lukewarm]

1x [APPREN] odd-night bulletproof even-night roleblocker

This is not the role btw.

It was odd-night ascetic. Not bulletproof.

[Lukewarm]

i still kinda think, irrespective, we should do SS' warrior ceremony and try to go into d10 f3

Doesn't this require trusting me? You'd have to lim two people who aren't me, and if I'm scum I just win the next night.

I think that he meant kill someone today.

Day 9 is 4 alive, no kill

You try to stop the kill night 9.

If the kill happens, then your target is cleared in 3p elo, you and your non-target cross.

If the kill does not happen, then you and your target cross.


Either way, it results in a clear in (m)elo

[Lukewarm]

If the kill happens, then your target is cleared in 3p elo, you and your non-target cross.

You should announce your target the day before, so that if you are killed, your target is still cleared, and the two "Not That Person" cross

[Lukewarm]

SS, can you please voice an opinion about the alignment of other players? Who you want to be the elim today? Anything?

Scrolling through your iso, the last alignment indicative statement that I see is you saying something that implies town bell, like 10 days ago.

And we kind of need direction statements here

[Lukewarm]

I am responding to you saying this

i still kinda think, irrespective, we should do SS' warrior ceremony and try to go into d10 f3

Doesn't this require trusting me?

You'd have to lim two people who aren't me, and if I'm scum I just win the next night.

Which does not match with the strategy that was being presented.

Maybe the strategy that is being presented is flawed, but your post did not align with the suggestion at all.

I am not invested in arguing about what strategy should be used with your PR on night 9 at this time.

Who do you think we should kill?

[Lukewarm]

Like, you are odd night, so you can never act tonight. Therefore, you don't even need to be activated today. So it does not need to be sorted now.

Also, if we kill scum today, it literally does not matter.

If we miss today, then I will stop and come up with my suggestion on what to do with you over the night. (even if I am night killed, I am currently in a hood with both furtive and freedom, so I can get my thoughts to the thread regardless)

[Lukewarm]

SS:

1)What is your set up spec on whether the game is more balanced with scum having 1 leader + 4 apprentices vs all apprentices?

2)If you could kill any 2 people who would it be?

[Lukewarm]

Why should I answer this? Even if I include a disclaimer that the answer doesn't mean anything, people are still going to ignore that and act like it means something.

Dude, I am literally just trying to figure out your PoE, because I have no idea what you are thinking about this game.

IF you don't want to name 2 names, give me one. Or even just vote. Am asking you questions to get you to play the game that we are playing.

[Lukewarm]

Larges are impossible to balance. I don't know, it really depends on what mood the mod/reviewers were in.

Reviewed by Ausuka, DkKoba and PookyTheMagicalBear.

Imo, Koba and Pooky would have pushed for there to be scum counter play to the yolo claim strat, given I just walked out of a game where both of them were scum and complained about the fact that that set up did not give the scum any counter play to the yolo claim strat.

And if we assume no scum in the council, I don't feel like the scum team would have had much counter play to the yolo claim strat I outlined before.

[Lukewarm]

Maybe the strategy that is being presented is flawed, but your post did not align with the suggestion at all.

I was being deliberately obtuse. Sorry. My proposal is only a "F3" on D10 in the sense that there may be three people alive on that day (but the game will already be solved, if it doesn't end).

We don't have to discuss this more. But 5501 will not work. And at the very least, we need it worked out by the start of D9, so people do not blitz a no-lim if we don't want them to.

Yeah, you were right if there is not a kill. The moment I actually stopped to think about it, I can see that.

I had not put a ton of thought into it when I wrote that post, and was just trying to clear up what looked like you misunderstanding the suggestion

[Lukewarm]

Hot Take: despite being frustrated that he is not working towards solving this game, I think that SS is town.

I am at:

Freedom
Furtive
SS

Ceph

The Worst

IF the worst is town though, I would probably be back at considering furtive as an alternative based on thinking there would be scum in the council, so would likely spend tomorrow sorting between the two of [Ceph, furtive]

[Lukewarm]

He stops voting Council Member A, and starts shading Council Member B [He is Council Member C]

did i miss the part where something_smart is on the council or what

You misread something. I said once I started arguing that there had to be scum in the council:

He STOPS voting for council member A (furtive)
Then STARTS shading council member B (freedom)

[Lukewarm]

what is to stop scum from shooting every significant source of town power

the mason doctors?

it's weird to me that the mod would essentially punish us for playing well (i.e. not outing every leader target)

I don't think that it is as punishing as you say it is. If everyone does everything secretly, and the PRs flip repeatedly, then the other leaders will come to the conclusion of scum in the midst on their own.

So, "A scum in a Leader Position means that scum can kill all of the PRs" is not exactly true either.

[Lukewarm]

i still kinda think, irrespective, we should do SS' warrior ceremony and try to go into d10 f3

Doesn't this require trusting me? You'd have to lim two people who aren't me, and if I'm scum I just win the next night.

I think that he meant kill someone today.

Day 9 is 4 alive, no kill

You try to stop the kill night 9.

If the kill happens, then your target is cleared in 3p elo, you and your non-target cross.

If the kill does not happen, then you and your target cross.


Either way, it results in a clear in (m)elo

what is to stop scum from holstering here

They can. I did not think about it all that closely, because I was just trying to reword what I thought the worst was advocating.

SS's response was to say that [if we would kill today, and tomorrow, and hope he saves the game if we are wrong would instantly lose to scum!ss], and was therefore questioning the worsts suggestion. I was chiming in to say that SS misread the worsts suggestion.

[Lukewarm]

BTW I don't think anyone could have not shot bell last night lol, leaving him alive any longer would point to his reads having mistakes

i concur -- afaik bell never outed how many shots he had, and as a result i think anyone could easily think he might not be limited and feel forced to get him the hell out of here

Bell clearly stated that he was one shot the day that he claimed, you made a few comments about him potentially having more shots the following day, but I chose not to correct you, because it seemed anti-town to clarify

[Lukewarm]

I'm feathertail.
A 1-shot vig.
I'm still an apprentice.

[Lukewarm]

Ceph, you are doing quite well for yourself if that is true !!

[Lukewarm]

And I do remember that someone said Ali/Norwee was absolutely not S/S, though I forget who.

I saw that be said by Val and Shiro. I also said something similar when I first read the windclan pt

[Lukewarm]

The strength of Alisae's scumread on Val is overblown, in a way that I feel indicates that Val caught Alisae and Norwee's interaction being scum-scum for what it is.

There is absolutly no way Alisae and Norwee interaction were scum-scum

I'm ruling out a scum Norwee-Alisae pairing

[Lukewarm]

I will be baffled if the Norwee slot is scum with Alisae

[Lukewarm]

I can't find anywhere that Titus or Enchant weighed in on the question. I checked to round out the Townies in WindClan, but no joy.

[Lukewarm]

Dude, I am literally just trying to figure out your PoE, because I have no idea what you are thinking about this game.

IF you don't want to name 2 names, give me one. Or even just vote. Am asking you questions to get you to play the game that we are playing.

You do have an idea of what I'm thinking-- it's not like I'm sitting on super spicy secret reads and refusing to share them. I don't want to get into trouble grasping at straws that I can't justify. And I'm willing to make an effort, but solving this late is already really hard and the constant replacements make it harder. But it is getting to be holiday season, so I don't really want to comb through posts for hours to get 1% better reads.

My first thought is furtive, because multiple people have pointed out the Ali/Norwee interactions. And I want to say that if the leaders were all town more of them would be dead by now, though scum has spent the last 5? nights killing confirmed townies, so I'm not sure when they really would have had time for that. And I do remember that someone said Ali/Norwee was absolutely not S/S, though I forget who.

I have been perennially conflicted on Ceph. He seems like he's really determined to keep me in the PoE but he's never wanted to really lead the charge against me? I don't know if that's scum indicative but it scares me because I've been thoroughly sick of supposedly being townread and then having that suddenly just vanish and people mislim me without caring at all about what I have to say. This has happened in my last three towngames, and I feel like he's trying to encourage it here. If he's scum I would imagine his plan is to try to lim me in elo/melo.

In fact, I think that's scum's plan, whoever they are. I was already considering suggesting this, but I think it makes even more sense the more I think about it-- I would like people to commit to limming me either today, or not at all. Because scum are going to be incentivized to push on me pretty hard tomorrow, or else they have to effectively dodge an extra lim.

Do you have any thoughts about the Dann/worst slot?

That is who I want to kill

[Lukewarm]

With all due respect, if a hood is 3/5 scum (or 3/6 I guess, though most of the interactions happened before Titus joined iirc?), I don't really trust the other 2 townies to be able to correctly read hood interactions.

I did not feel that way about Ali and Shiidaji/T3

But I understand your point.

[Lukewarm]

My point was not that they were different, but what ever.

For the record, shidaji made 3 total posts in the windclan pt.

So I don't really agree that their existence in the hood actually has any bearing on anyone else's perception on the Norwee/Ali interactions, since they were such a non-presence.

So, while I understand your hesitance to think that townies could sort out theater vs pocket attempts if the hood was potentially 50%+ scum, i don't think that that third member actually matters from my pov having read the pt.

[Lukewarm]

You didn't seem to realise S_S claimed Odd-Night when you made that pro-scum strategy.
You literally were telling Town to throw and give scum (from what should be your POV) two free NKs.

Freedom, I am confused.

Can you say what you the worst suggested, and what makes it pro scum?

[Lukewarm]

Like, compare it to what I think is the default for how this game will play out if we are wrong today:

We miss today.
You or I will be night killed.
Day 9 No Kill
The other of you or I will die.

3p Elo.

[Lukewarm]

But it is getting to be holiday season, so I don't really want to comb through posts for hours to get 1% better reads.

SS, if you don't want to take the time to do back reads, why are you not voting?

Is there something else you are waiting for to vote toDay?

[Lukewarm]

SS, if you don't want to take the time to do back reads, why are you not voting?

Is there something else you are waiting for to vote toDay?

I mean I can still talk about the game and look back at specific events without doing a close reread. It certainly seems like the discussion right now is productive.

True. I guess that question was more applicable to the way you were posting in thread prior to that point.

[Lukewarm]

Ngl, every post from the worst is resulting in me to be more convinced that it is them.

Their staunch defense of ceph as a free miselim tomorrow feels wildly out of place give it was furtive who hit e-1 today, not ceph. So feels more motivated by keeping ceph on their side.

I felt somewhat similar with his sudden pop in to say that we should ceremony SS. Like he had voiced zero thoughts about that, until I started campaigning against him. When the more natural place to have such an epiphany would have been when ss himself was talking about how he should have been ceremonied

Given furtive and freedom seem super inclined to follow me, he needs the two of you on his side.

[Lukewarm]

I'm asking you to evaluate freedom and furtive, because you'll have to choose between them tomorrow. to which you respond by becoming more tunnelled because my thought patterns are unnatural.

interesting choice Luke.


pedit: good!!!! as they should !!!!!!

You are trying to frame it like my issue is that your thought process is unnatural. Which is vague, and generally something that comes from players thinking about the game differently.

That is not my point.

My point is that your stances seems to change along with the gamestate towards which ever stance would be more likely to let you win as scum.

Changes as a point of tactical necessity.

[Lukewarm]

you're probably not going to be here to make a decision tomorrow, so i'd suggest evaluating your legacy

If you are town, my final thoughts can get to the main thread even if i die.

I am in a hood with two other players, at least one of them is guaranteed to be town.

So i will have time to reevaluate and get my thoughts to the thread

[Lukewarm]

aha didn't know you still had two hood buddies - that does explain it a bit

I am in the windclan with furtive and in a hood of my own making with freedom

[Lukewarm]

and in a hood of my own making with freedom

The flavor of which is that I am some kind of Casanova of a cat, at Catsanova even, who has seduced freedom and it is our own little rendezvous point

But I am also not all that faithful apparently, and I can repeat this pattern with up to 2 other cats. Not a shared hood, but multiple "special places for just you and me"

I get around apparently.

Not that any if that mattered, but I thought it was some silly flavor lol

[Lukewarm]

Sad.

So we want to no kill, or are we doing this shit today?

[Lukewarm]

Anyone have any abilities left?

I have 1 shot of my neighborizor left!

Lol

[Lukewarm]

I can see benefits to both, but want to hear an opinion from everyone else

[Lukewarm]

I feel like there is a 0% chance that you are the kill lmao

Pretty sure scum!ceph or scum!freedom kill me.

If I were scum, I would probably kill freedom.

And if you are scum, you never kill yourself lol

[Lukewarm]

If we are playing the day, the we town hunt first, instead of scum hunt

Pick 1 player to confirm them town.

If we are playing out the day, I would expect to be the one confirmed town. If 2 of the 3 or you are against it, I think we just no elim

[Lukewarm]

Am curious.

Are you against the idea of solving 4p that way in general, or because the suggested clear is me.

Want your thoughts more fully formed in thread please.

[Lukewarm]

Am curious.

Are you against the idea of solving 4p that way in general, or because the suggested clear is me.

Want your thoughts more fully formed in thread please.

Ironically, I don't want to give my full thoughts because I don't want to tell Mafia what to do

I mean, technically we have more then the 2 options I presented.

Like, confirming freedom instead of me.

And since you are not saying what about that original plan you don't like, I am not sure if you even considered that option.

Which is relevant for our planning for today

[Lukewarm]

And you don't have to reply in this thread.
You could tell Luke and he could tell me.

Or even tell me, and tell me not to tell freedom lol

You do have an avenue to talk to me without talking to the rest of the thread.

[Lukewarm]

I prefer f3 to f4 in general, more likely to vote out Mafia I think. Separately, I also don't really like your plan but maybe that's just because that's not how I've seen it done before

I have seen it done a couple of times.

In general, it is only done if at 4p there is one player who is very likely to be town, and also very likely to be the night kill. Therefore, moving from 4p->3p only serves to knock that person out of the discussion.

So, basically "I think that all 3 other players are reasonably in the PoE still" means that you move from 4p-3p, and force the scum to chose someone in the PoE to kill, and you get to analyze that kill choice.

If on the other hand, most players are fairly confident one of them is the obvious night kill, doing so does not help much. You don't really learn much if "the widely town read, and obvious night kill" was killed. That is when you can consider doing the path I just suggested.

[Lukewarm]

Just as a heads up to the thread, this is my game plan for how to handle this game from here on, because I will be in the hospital December 23-28th.

If we decided to confirm town me: we can go about our business as normal, and start digging in for the long haul here in the thread.

If we instead decide to go for the no kill, and I am killed: I will do as much back reading as I can over the night, and give my final guess to Freedom in our hood, so he can carry it forward if I am night killed.

If we decide to go for the night kill, and instead I am not killed: I will likely Vote near the start of the final day, and we all just have to hope I figured it out over the night, because I won't have time to actually discuss. [So, If I am wrong, we will lose very quickly. If I am right, then the last scum gets to argue that I am scum this game, and the last town gets to decide from there]

[Lukewarm]

If we are not going to do the elim today, then we should probably no elim by end of day tomorrow at the latest

[Lukewarm]

@Ceph, what do you think between solving in 4p vs solving in 3p this game?

[Lukewarm]

That does not seem very likely to me tbh

[Lukewarm]

It seems like a weird balance in your head to simultaneously think "I don't like the kill someone in 4p option, so lets no elim" but also "if we no kill, the most likely outcome is for the scum to not do the night kill"

[Lukewarm]

@freedom, did either you or furtive vote to give ceph the warrior ceremony?

[Lukewarm]

*blushes*

[Lukewarm]

@freedom, did either you or furtive vote to give ceph the warrior ceremony?

@Furtive, you can also answer this. Not sure why I @'ed that to just freedom lol

[Lukewarm]

I prefer we solve today personally.

So freedom, if you are down for this, then you can vote furtive.

I'll be around for a little while to confirm.

[Lukewarm]

Here

[Lukewarm]

You guys can unvote now, while we solve.

I was holding off talking reads until we decided, but we can start doing that now.

[Lukewarm]

@furtive, please talk to me about your read on me prior to freedom's vote

[Lukewarm]

@ceph and @furtive

If you are considering a possible scum!freedom, please talk me through your thoughts there.

Right now I am inclined to have him as the most likely town between the three of you, but want to hear from you before we commit to that idea

[Lukewarm]

I Am willing to write a town case if either of you do a scum case, and we can discuss both, but want your thoughts before I do that.

[Lukewarm]

Partly because of their quickvote on me at the start of today. They weren't considering their options, just knew that me and them would be in opposition today. Cynical

To be fair, because you were against confirming me, the only option to confirm me was for freedom and ceph to vote for you. Like, mechanically.

[Lukewarm]

@furtive, please talk to me about your read on me prior to freedom's vote

[Lukewarm]

You got pretty animatedly worried about putting me into a position to potentially hammer you. Something that can only happens if I am scum.

Did you have any specific worries about me?

[Lukewarm]

luke. i think his solving has a lot of value, i want to see it, and i think i'm not going to eliminate him anyway regardless

i guess val could be more theater but i dont think it is

I see.
So, we can proceed with Luke's plan, right?
(Mainly involves putting furtive on E-1 and Luke not hammering, conftowning him.)

FREEDOM HOW ARE YOU SO BLASÉ ABOUT THE WHOLE GAME BEING ON THE LINE

This does not translate to "I prefer to play in 3p"

"The game being on the line" is only true if I am scum.

I kind of thought you were secretly scum reading me, but did not want to say it because if I was town, and I got night killed, it solved it for you. Or conversely, you didn't want me to know in case I would aim the kill at you for it.

The answer being "I just wanted 3p, but was pretty sure you were town" is a much more boring answer tbh

[Lukewarm]

I think I would have town leaned you for having a secret scum read on me, so I am a little sad at your response tbh

(And if you are scum, I hope this post makes you feel sad for not taking that route )

[Lukewarm]

I'd rather let him call it basically

I don't really plan on strong arming the whole thing.

I want us to collectively choose 1 more player to confirm town. Then me and that player decide between. The last two.

@everyone

Please make a case for who you think should be cleared out of the 3 of you

[Lukewarm]

We need to lock in clear #2 by tomorrow

[Lukewarm]

Obviously I'd like to be clear, but realistically I'll hammer Ceph if it's them that's voted

I am reading between the lines, and this scenario means "I would bet the game on freedom being town"

Is that accurate?

[Lukewarm]

luke. i think his solving has a lot of value, i want to see it, and i think i'm not going to eliminate him anyway regardless

i guess val could be more theater but i dont think it is

I see.
So, we can proceed with Luke's plan, right?
(Mainly involves putting furtive on E-1 and Luke not hammering, conftowning him.)

FREEDOM HOW ARE YOU SO BLASÉ ABOUT THE WHOLE GAME BEING ON THE LINE

This does not translate to "I prefer to play in 3p"

"The game being on the line" is only true if I am scum.

I kind of thought you were secretly scum reading me, but did not want to say it because if I was town, and I got night killed, it solved it for you. Or conversely, you didn't want me to know in case I would aim the kill at you for it.

The answer being "I just wanted 3p, but was pretty sure you were town" is a much more boring answer tbh

How does my position not make sense to you? I thought it was unlikely, but possible, that you were Mafia

It is less that the position does not make sense. It is that this is not a position that I would town read you for. Is an easy position to take, and seems fairly NAI

Having a secret scum read on me, with reasons, which led you to be scared about giving me hammer powers -- I would have probably town read.

[Lukewarm]

I was asking you a series of questions, and in my mind, if you answered a certain way, I would walk away with a town read.

You did not answer that way.

You answered in a NAI way (in my opinion)

[Lukewarm]

I had a random bit of paranoia on freedom earlier, but with both of you set on it being the other. I think I am just falling back to my earlier read.

@ceph and furtive, please vote me to check freedom