House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[Roden]

Hi

Is there anything I need to know or any pages I need to skim

Full disclosure though, I'm not gonna read the entire game, I won't be able to retain it if I try but I'll look at whatever is deemed particularly important

I'd also like a quick summary of the mis-elim and how it happened if possible

[Roden]

Don't think it's feasible for me to read the whole game and still manage to contribute unfortunately

Upon skimming, Penguin's ISO isn't too helpful and I don't really agree with his vote, I think this is Drapion's town play

UNVOTE:

[Roden]

Flavor

All eyes in the court were on the lady in red as she casually walked up to the king with not a hint of fear in her eyes.

She leaned down and whispered something in his ear and turned and walked away - unbowed and completely unafraid.

"Dracarys"

The command boomed throughout the hall.

The dragonfire's intensity ripped through the hall and sent onlookers scrambling

MariaR was aligned with the

Town

Execution Vote - Day One

With twenty one players alive - it requires eleven votes to make a decision. Failure to reach a majority results in no execution

Dwlee99 [9]:

Datisi, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Firebringer, Titus, MariaR, Lukewarm, GuiltyLion, VP Baltar

Furtiveglance [3]:

Junkochan, thestatusquo, unwnd

GuiltyLion [2]:

Enchant, mastina

unwnd [2]:

furtiveglance, Andante

Enchant [1]:

Andresvmb

Datisi [1]:

Dwlee99

VP Baltar [1]:

ProfessorDrapion

MariaR [1]:

Unowen

not voting [1]:

Lady Lambdadelta,

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-11-25 14:48:35)

So Dwlee was getting run up and then Maria got lol killed. At least looking at the context in the surrounding posts it seems that way. Was there any further reason for this that I'm not seeing in your ISO, Status? Just going by what I see when I search "Maria".

[Roden]

I see, ok yeah that's helpful. I'm not super big on GL's meta but being a controversial slot seems consistent with past games and usually meant he was town. I'll look up his ISO and see what I can get out of it.

Saving Dwlee with the execute override is likely just NAI, and I think tonally that their current argument with Math feels townie, on both ends actually. I'll look up Dwlee's ISO too since I've been getting better at reading them.

Does the Dwlee wagon feel easy to you (or anyone who wants to give their opinion really)? I don't usually see them take so much heat for an extended period of time.

[Roden]

Feeling like I'm Team Dwlee after reading their ISO. The vibe I'm getting is that they feel annoyed and frustrated that they're not really being heard or taken seriously. I think they would be in anti-spew mode and just generally not finding motivation to post if they were scum and getting hard pressured for two Days straight.

I haven't really looked at who wants them dead the most but this looks like it could be a town driven wagon, and if so them scum are in the non voters and vanity voters. Maybe just one or two scum max on Dwlee but probably not any of the big pushers.

Gonna hold off on looking at GL for a moment to take a look at Datisi for now.

[Roden]

Hi, apologies for being so absent

I’ll be catching up in roughly 24 hours, yell at me if I’m not

Lukewarm kill actually vaguely pushes me away from wanting GL dead? I don’t know why GL would want him dead, unless lukewarm was dead on the money about all his other pushes, though frankly I don’t remember what those were

I don’t think I want Shea dead

My opinion probably won’t change on dwlee unless their posting has suddenly changed but I’ll try to keep an open mind as I’m catching up

I guess my question to Roden and other team dwlee people is what part of their posting doesn’t just feel like antispew?

Dwlee taking on pressure for so long while still giving actual content and reads is just townie for them. Anti-spew!Dwlee usually just shuts up and makes calculated posts to try to give their team a winning chance while also doing everything they can to fuck off right out of the game. They made some posts that feel like messy associatives, especially their most recent read list, and I feel like they're actually trying to survive when putting in that kind of effort now would be more detrimental to their team since they were very likely to die today anyway. It just adds more content for town to analyze and gather associative reads from while still dying anyway.

And besides that, I don't think anything in their ISO or their interactions really warranted two consecutive Days of pressure. Like even if you don't town read Dwlee, I find it hard to believe that so much of the town could come together to strike down scum!Dwlee just based off of their posts.

As a side note, I'm a bit back and forth on Datisi as I go through his ISO but I'm finding it really hard to believe that this was the player that scum!Dwlee would decide to latch onto as their biggest scum read. Regardless of Datisi's alignment, he isn't the kind of player that Dwlee would target as scum especially early on.

[Roden]

VOTE: Titus

I strongly believe Titus is scum btw. Low content + the content itself being low effort is a bad look, but what really pings me is that she isn't using the non-supporter PT at all. She has just one post there and it's a nothing post. I feel like she would be using the PT to theorize and discuss the game, but she hasn't been doing so at all. Even if you consider the possible excuse that it's just because she hasn't had the time to do so, she hasn't been asking for updates or summaries from other players. She's more or less just coasting and not really taking any heat for it.

Example of a game where Titus used her PT as much as possible even when she didn't really know what was going on:

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=89091

[Roden]

After finishing his ISO, Datisi is just north of null for me, tonally this doesn't seem like his scum play. He's not entirely out of his scum range though, and I don't really agree with his reads so that's probably part of why I don't feel comfortable putting him as a town read yet, but that might actually be somewhat +town.

[Roden]

Hey y'all, couple things on my mind:

GLs flip will certainly inform my read of Dwlee.

Let me be

super fucking clear

, and this doesn't just go for you in the event that you're town Shea, this goes for everyone.

The read I want people to be "informed" of when I flip green is that

VPB IS TOWN

.

From pretty much early-mid D1 this game, there has been a

concerted

effort by slots like Mastina, Shea, and now Drap on D2 to assert that VPB/GL are a wolf duo because we townread each other and because we supported ourselves to be King, and because we supported to lim Dwlee. This has been a nonstop push against us to the point where it's just mindlessly repeated by everyone and I'm afraid people aren't going to bother to reassess if I'm limmed and just mindlessly roll into "well we were wrong on GL but that means VPB is just scum". If you do that, town deserves to lose this game.

As I said before, I have played with scum!VPB twice this year and this ain't it. His vibes are way different to me this game, I agree with basically everything he's posting - which has never happened before, and most of all Datisi has also expressed a strong TR on VPB for much the same reasons which makes me more confident it's correct.

If I'm limmed today, VPB should be considered IC-tier unlimmable on the back of how confident I am that he is town, and I hope people actually go back and start looking at how repeatedly our opinions and reads and voices were minimized in an attempt to wrest power from a Datisi-VPB-GL-Andres townbloc that was forming early in the game and could have easily run this game differently.

That brings me to a larger gamestate point, which is that it should also be clear to you on my elimination that

town is not currently in control of this game

. I'm town and I've noticed being gradually more and more boxed out of having any influence. Early on, seemed like people agreed with me and liked the idea of VPB King, or myself as King. Gradually, that shifted, and we went with a compromise TSQ option because Mastina et. al had made enough noise about "GL/VPB SCUM!!" that people didn't like it anymore. Next, Shea starts disagreeing with my reads in the supporter PT and goes against them with his council picks. At the time I could see that coming from town - sure, King should be a bit paranoid of his supporters, he might want checks and balances against scenarios where he's being buddied or scum are manipulating him. What I did get frustrated by was when Shea actually indicated that he thought VPB was town in the supporters PT

after

he made his council picks and after I had lobbied him aggressively to put VPB instead of Junko on there. NEXT, Shea went against the will of the majority of the town (including myself) to herovig a townie and save a lurky, scummy, slot. And after doing this there's been not a ton of resistance to going with Shea's preferred lim on D2!

so fmpov, knowing my alignment, after I got the King I voted for, I haven't gotten a council I've wanted, a single flip I've wanted this game, and I'm about to be limmed. When you see me flip town, you should be looking for who the wolves were that worked to ensure this outcome, that I was gradually taken down and pushed out of the game.

Please

reassess townreads on players like mastina, Shea, etc who have been working overtime to make sure their narrative wins, and

please

objectively look at how little we've done to catch scum so far.

Drapion and Mastina mentioned in the non-supporter PT that this looks like a major scum/perspective slip. From what I understand, GL has been a major player and influence in this game...yet he claims that town is not in control of this game. It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here and I don't think it can come from town.

Execution Vote Day Two

With nineteen players alive - it will require ten votes to eliminate a player.

Dwlee99 [6]:

GuiltyLion, Titus, Andresvmb, VP Baltar, Andante, furtiveglance

GuiltyLion [2]:

Thestatusquo, mastina,

Firebringer [1]:

Enchant,

Datisi [1]:

Dwlee99

Andresvmb [1]:

ProfessorDrapion

ProfessorDrapion [1]:

PenguinPower

not voting [7]:

JohnnyFarrar, Dannflor, Lady Lambdadelta, Datisi, Firebringer, Unowen, Mathblade,

Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-02 22:58:35)

Even looking at the most recent VC, GL is

still

a major influence in the game. He's on the leading wagon and wouldn't even have the most blood on his hands on a green Dwlee flip, I think Datisi would look a lot worse at that point. Meanwhile, his own wagon only has two votes...how the hell is that inducing a panic here? Does it really make sense to scream into the heavens that town is doomed and has no control over this game when he's getting exactly what he wants and isn't in any real danger of being voted out? Town!GL is normally so much more collected and nuanced than this, not just from looking at his town play in hindsight but also when I played a Mason game with him. He doesn't particularly care for self-preservation as town, so seeing such an extreme reaction just from being suspected by players who don't have much influence in the game doesn't add up here.

[Roden]

oh cool i can vote dwlee again without it being a y-1

VOTE: dwlee

pls don't put them at y-1 yet though, i think there's day actions still waiting to happen

Could you summarize why you think Dwlee is scum here?

[Roden]

I feel like that all could just as easily be bad town play and a low effort Day 1 on their end. I'm not sure what scum!Dwlee's end game is supposed to be by playing in a way that consistently brings them negative attention and then doubling down on it instead of just, not doing any of that. You're not an easy push, and if they have a history of reading you decently well then it seems off to not even pretend to emulate that as scum. And I don't think the bare minimum of "make more content so people leave you alone" is too much for scum buddies to ask from them either. Scum!Dwlee would have to be pre-emptively throwing in the towel and leaving their scum buddies in a bad spot.

That isn't to say I haven't seen Dwlee throw in the towel as scum before, but the two times I did it was because one time they were getting hard bussed, and the other time they replaced in and immediately got hit with three guilty results. If they flipped scum this game I'd be confused on why they couldn't just fake content, or distance themself from a buddy, or fake an associative with town. On the other hand, I could understand why Dwlee would feel more and more lackluster as the game went on if they flipped green.

I'm 50/50 on the "why isn't Datisi pushing other lurkers" thing. I think your reasoning is valid, but I also think scum!Dwlee would understand why you're pushing them just as much as town!Dwlee would, and wouldn't make that argument. "Why me" is just a awful thing in general for scum to say, but I could see town!Dwlee saying that if they thought their own reasoning was solid and thought your case on them was bad or cherry picked.

[Roden]

When did Johnny sus you for being active and pushy?

[Roden]

When did Johnny sus you for being active and pushy?

The actual SR is not here. It’s in a PT somewhere. But the reasoning put out for everyone to see is that I’m active and pushy. Maybe I’m being overly critical, but they haven’t really explained their read beyond that statement, unless I’m missing something.

Then again, I haven’t read every post in the PTs just yet - I’m catching up here first.

Must be in the council PT, he didn't mention you in the non-supporter PT.

[Roden]

roden, i think there's a difference between "bad town play/low effort" and what they are doing here. some things can be excused as low effort. completely missing the point on things multiple times, doubling down on it, and showing zero nuanced thought even when they are around is not "low effort". you don't have to effort to show some thoughts about the game as town, to townies it comes naturally. it's not coming naturally to them.

"scum wouldn't play this bad" is not something that convinces me. at the time, their choices were to either double down on it, or actually have some thoughts on the game, because they can't just lurk indefinitely. and they were already under heavy pressure iirc. it's not easy to dig yourself out as scum.

and i just walked out of a game where a scum did spend quite a bit of their time shitpushing me for zero gain, so "why would scum push you?" is not something that changes my mind.

and i guess i kind of disagree on "scum-dwlee would understand why you're pushing them as much as town-dwlee would". i think that kind of stuff takes extra processing power for scum than for town. but that's besides my point, because i don't think that response *comes from town*. it's deliberately a bad faith argument. it's not going to convince anyone, because even if you scumread me you can tell it's a flawed argument. it reeks of doubling down for the sake of doubling down. i could maybe excuse this if the situation was different (i think townies can do purposefully bad faith arguments sometimes) but this doesn't feel like a situation it applies because i have been very clear what my issues with dwlee are and i don't think they're invalid.

I don't think your issues with Dwlee are invalid either, but the issues you have aren't incompatible with a townie who got tunneled and then fell off when they felt unheard and got pressured instead. I've done the same thing in past games, and that's what I'm seeing here.

[Roden]

I think they would be in anti-spew mode and just generally not finding motivation to post if they were scum and getting hard pressured for two Days straight.

what do you consider to be "anti-spew mode" and what makes you think dwlee is not in it right now?

Anti-spew mode to me is more or less just a scum claim and a refusal to give content of any kind. When Dwlee does it, it seems pretty blatant.

I'll link GnG again since it's relevant:

viewtopic.php?t=89068&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

The Mini where Dwlee got hard bussed and when asked to give reads literally just said "no":

viewtopic.php?t=89094&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Then there's SCP where they almost got elim'd and actually didn't go into anti-spew mode, instead giving reads and attempting to set up their scum buddies to fare better later on:

viewtopic.php?t=87700&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[Roden]

i disagree their tunnel makes sense in the first place. and i disagree that they actually did substantial efforts in making themselves heard and understood about their scumread on me.

i'm interested in you fleshing out your takes on guiltylion, i think your most recent post on him is missing context and i personally agree with gl's post and don't think it was a perspective slip. there's also a towncase by me of gl on page 71 (including some other people) that might be of interest to you. or at least i'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

I am definitely missing some context, but unless it's something massive that people just aren't bringing up for some reason, I don't think it'll affect my read too much. But I am open to changing my mind if it's pivotal. At the moment though it feels like something so far out of GL's typical town play, AtE doesn't really seem like his thing.

I did see your town case on GL earlier but I disagree with it, I think a good portion of it is similar to mine on Dwlee (especially the "too sloppy to be scum" bit), and what you found as complex townie thoughts and interactions with Luke, I just see LAMIST appeals and more AtE. I think Luke died exactly because GL was afraid that Luke would just see through him and recognize that their interactions were fake. The "keep casing me" thing legit just sealed it for me as LAMIST; town doesn't actually do that, especially if they're supposedly scum reading the player that they're addressing that to.

Taking into account that GL already noted that he and Luke have clashing playstyles, and that Luke has apparently chronically scum read him in the past, it comes off as very contradictory to encourage Luke to keep playing in a way that isn't pro-town, and then complain about it once he's dead. Like I really just think it's scummy to goad someone, then once they die just shrug your shoulders and say "oh no, that damn playstyle clash sure made things difficult while you were alive, but no hard feelings".

[Roden]

I am going to stop responding to GL.

stop responding to me is a good idea because we don't seem to be able to communicate productively, but frankly you should still be casing me because I'm your top scumread and currently a leading King vote, and

if you really believe I'm scum I'd expect you to keep doing that. I will have no chance of finding you town if you don't

There is no town motivation for this post.

If GL is town who thinks I am scum, he is telling me what not to do to get scum read by him, which is pretty ??

Contrasted to just... not saying this, and then seeing what I do in order to either further sort me / case me for it.

It also has that same twistiness built in to just call me scum for the sake of it. Seeing as how I was, like an hour ago, trying to get PP to not vote him for king.

that post was literally an olive branch reach out to you

if you say "wah I'm not responding to GL anymore" and use that as an excuse to not post about me, I'm just gonna keep scumreading you because town!you should absolutely be campaigning against me here

Your attempt to get PP to not vote me for king was kinda wholly ineffective and a nothingburger? You just asserted that you didn't like it. That's scummy shit. the more transparent you are with your thought processes the better likelihood of me realizing I'm wrong in my assessment of your thought processes that I don't like.

If this is the post you're talking about Datisi, GL blatantly doubles down on his scum read once Luke calls him out on the LAMIST appeal and refuses the olive branch. Which...doesn't make sense when he literally told Luke to case him and Luke did exactly that.

[Roden]

no, i'm talking about that big post recently that mastina/drapion apparently called a perspective slip or whatever

i have no clue how you're concluding that luke died because scum-gl was afraid luke was gonna "see right through him" when luke was already very much "seeing through him" and calling for his head already

i already explained why i don't think that post is lamist and why reading cases against you can be a good strategy to figure out reads (just because you told someone "keep casing me and if you're town, i'll find you" doesn't mean that they will magically be able to case you in a townie way if they're scum. gl wasn't saying he was gonna townread any case against him), like i often ask people why are they sus of me because i think it's easier to figure out bad faith there

i don't get how you're simultaneously arguing that gl was goading luke into doing anti-town plays (casing gl) and that luke died because gl was afraid of him figuring him out

Sorry, it's 6am and I'm not making the connections in my head clear enough atm. I was referring to your town case on GL where you couldn't find a certain post he'd made.

i really liked his thoughts on lukewarm being scum. like yes i know i am probably biased here, but 888 feels like a real thought process. that's the vibe i get with the entirety of his argument with lukewarm. it's just... complex thought after complex thought. and like, i don't think it's scum pushing because there's these small olive branches (1460, whichever that post where he told him to keep casing him if he's town, my eyes are glazing over i can't find it). i'm not sure if he bothers to offer these as scum, because it can later be used against him when he eventually shuts them down.

This part. Regardless, I think it might help clear up some of your confusion on my thought process here, you pretty much touched on it in the last sentence i.e. why GL would goad Luke and then kill him afterwards. He tried to manipulate Luke, failed, then killed him.

[Roden]

@Mastina
I think you might be wrongly clearing Andres.

@Roden
I believe your slot to be wolves with Johnny/GL/Andres/VP

@Everyone who thinks Titus is a wolf.
I’d have to find the post by VP but VP being wolf spews Titus town so don’t lose this opportunity.
VP Balter has been using thread control this game, get rid of him first after GL as GL and VP are the same alignment.

Yeah I saw. What you mean to say is that Penguin told you to fuck off and that hurt your feelings. He can be abrasive, but doesn't mean he was scum.

Take some time to breathe and your discuss thoughts with me here or in the PT. Preferably here.

[Roden]

Drapion and Mastina mentioned in the non-supporter PT that this looks like a major scum/perspective slip. From what I understand, GL has been a major player and influence in this game...yet he claims that town is not in control of this game. It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here and I don't think it can come from town.

GL has not really been influencing the game much since Shea became king. I would say GL has faced resistance on almost every post he's making. Same for me. The rabble rousing crowd just continually makes bad arguments and is trying to outweigh that with volume and noise.

Drapion and Mastina and Shea can sit there and cry wolf (literally) all day long, dwlee is still the correct yeet for today. It should have happened yesterday, but Shea took unilateral action on a town read he's claiming isn't even locktown, and then he and mastina (in separate threads where they couldn't be communicating mind you) each claimed Shea actually had no choice because I was advocating we lim dwlee. Shea did have a choice though. He could have done nothing, which would have been the proper play for the king, instead of mislimming a town.

Those three can tell whatever conspiracy theories they want, facts are facts.

I don't think any of those three are scum, but yes I do agree that they've gone into conspiracy theory territory. The non-supporter PT is very chaotic and became an echo chamber a while back, looking at the post dates, so that would likely explain why Drapion and Mastina have been loud and in unison. I think this makes them town though, it just reads as natural paranoia and I believe that they both just really want to be right. Though I also agree with some of their other reads; I like Mastina's reads on everyone in the non-supporter PT, and Drapion picked up on a few things that I like that I'll share when it becomes relevant later.

I think the theory that you and GL are a power wolf duo is exciting, but I don't think it's likely tbh. I haven't read your ISO yet, but based on vibes I think that you could be town and mixed in with scum.

Gonna have to disagree that you and GL don't have any influence though, you're both very clearly getting what you want so far. Facing resistance kinda proves that, because resistance can't happen without an opposing influence, and said resistance is hardly being taken seriously as it is. You have the majority of the player list hanging onto your every word, while that same majority either ridicules or ignores Mastina and Drapion. And there's clear dissent and a wish to overthrow Shea among several players, so I don't think this resistance that you're so wary of is as much of a threat as you're making them out to be.

[Roden]

in case someone else happens to "not get it" - dwlee claims to interact with stuff as it happens. show me somewhere in their iso where they've actually interacted in a meaningful way with anything.

the fact that their last two pop ins are answering gl's question (without making any sort of conclusion or inquiry about alignments) and trying to shade me should tell you something.

No I see it, their recent posts are a bit more in line with what I expect from scum Dwlee. I'm just confused why they would continue to fall off like this as scum when there was a recent attempt from other players to defend them.

I'd kind of expected Dwlee to interact with me here or in the PT but it didn't really happen, not even a "am I getting pocketed?" comment, despite posting one in the PT asking Drapion if they were getting pocketed by Andante and the Maria slot when they defended Dwlee earlier.

[Roden]

VOTE: dwlee, E-1.

dwlee has not magically become obvtown.

Can I get some time to respond to people and have more interactions first? I haven't had much time to settle into the game yet.

[Roden]

Gonna have to disagree that you and GL don't have any influence though, you're both very clearly getting what you want so far.

What have I gotten specifically?

Like, I can agree with Roden that I am having some influence, but that's only through me being very transparently town to people who know my scum game reasonably well. It's not that I have some vast majority handing me things or just dogmatically deferring to me for no reason.

The dwlee flip would be the first thing I could potentially get that I think is a good move in this game. Though I backed Shea for king, that was me compromising given the alternatives. I didn't want Maria executed yesterday, and I did not get a PR.

So I don't think you should confuse me advocating for my point of view with getting my way. I've had to invest probably more political capital into this dwlee flip than i feel confident about because i have not been getting tangible actions going my way. If they flip green, thats an easy vector for scum to attack me. But i have to take some risk to get us moving in what i hope is a better direction. Just my 2 cents.

It's all about perspective here. I understand why you think that you haven't gotten your way, but from my perspective there aren't that many people telling you "no". You didn't get King, but you still had a say in who was King. Dwlee didn't die yesterday, but your push on them has been accepted and promoted for two Days straight. The only people who've tried to stop you are either on the fringes of the game and have no real power, or it's the current King who blew their kill power early and who people want to overthrow.

Like, you aren't getting instant gratification, sure, but who's really getting in your way at this point? You're not in any real danger of being eliminated any time soon, and I doubt scum kills you over the next few nights either.

[Roden]

VOTE: dwlee, E-1.

dwlee has not magically become obvtown.

Can I get some time to respond to people and have more interactions first? I haven't had much time to settle into the game yet.

I mean, you have time now? you have a PT with half us, do you want 6 more days of sitting here? how long are you wanting us to wait??

also lld popping in to literally just post whatever random thing every single time she's about to get a prod.... I don't even know what to make of it

?

I'm currently responding to stuff and have been since replacing in. I'm asking to hold off on a hammer since I haven't even been here for 24 hours yet and I can only post on my breaks.

[Roden]

Drapion and Mastina mentioned in the non-supporter PT that this looks like a major scum/perspective slip. From what I understand, GL has been a major player and influence in this game...yet he claims that town is not in control of this game. It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here and I don't think it can come from town.

GL has not really been influencing the game much since Shea became king. I would say GL has faced resistance on almost every post he's making. Same for me. The rabble rousing crowd just continually makes bad arguments and is trying to outweigh that with volume and noise.

Drapion and Mastina and Shea can sit there and cry wolf (literally) all day long, dwlee is still the correct yeet for today. It should have happened yesterday, but Shea took unilateral action on a town read he's claiming isn't even locktown, and then he and mastina (in separate threads where they couldn't be communicating mind you) each claimed Shea actually had no choice because I was advocating we lim dwlee. Shea did have a choice though. He could have done nothing, which would have been the proper play for the king, instead of mislimming a town.

Those three can tell whatever conspiracy theories they want, facts are facts.

I don't think any of those three are scum, but yes I do agree that they've gone into conspiracy theory territory. The non-supporter PT is very chaotic and became an echo chamber a while back, looking at the post dates, so that would likely explain why Drapion and Mastina have been loud and in unison. I think this makes them town though, it just reads as natural paranoia and I believe that they both just really want to be right. Though I also agree with some of their other reads; I like Mastina's reads on everyone in the non-supporter PT, and Drapion picked up on a few things that I like that I'll share when it becomes relevant later.

I think the theory that you and GL are a power wolf duo is exciting, but I don't think it's likely tbh. I haven't read your ISO yet, but based on vibes I think that you could be town and mixed in with scum.

Gonna have to disagree that you and GL don't have any influence though, you're both very clearly getting what you want so far. Facing resistance kinda proves that, because resistance can't happen without an opposing influence, and said resistance is hardly being taken seriously as it is. You have the majority of the player list hanging onto your every word, while that same majority either ridicules or ignores Mastina and Drapion. And there's clear dissent and a wish to overthrow Shea among several players, so I don't think this resistance that you're so wary of is as much of a threat as you're making them out to be.

Interesting. Who else is in the “clear dissent” I don’t need a long explanation. Just who please.

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

[Roden]

VOTE: dwlee, E-1.

dwlee has not magically become obvtown.

Can I get some time to respond to people and have more interactions first? I haven't had much time to settle into the game yet.

I mean, you have time now? you have a PT with half us, do you want 6 more days of sitting here? how long are you wanting us to wait??

also lld popping in to literally just post whatever random thing every single time she's about to get a prod.... I don't even know what to make of it

?

I'm currently responding to stuff and have been since replacing in. I'm asking to hold off on a hammer since I haven't even been here for 24 hours yet and I can only post on my breaks.

right, so that's why you're trying to fight Professor in the PT over his read on your slot... that helps get a better grasp of the game?

VOTE: Roden

Professor is the one trying to fight with me lol, I asked him to present his case on Penguin and I'll work with him from there.

What's the point in voting me here?

[Roden]

Meanwhile, his own wagon only has two votes...how the hell is that inducing a panic here?

I mean my wagon had up to like 5 votes earlier today? With the King pushing it?

I didn't check to follow how many people had hopped off but when Andres indicated he was willing to lim me and saying I can never endgame it felt like momentum was moving back to me

I don't think that's a townie reaction, it doesn't makes any sense to not actually look at the VC before declaring that town doesn't have any control in the game. The votes and game state were clearly in your favor, which to me makes your lamenting feel hollow. Like it didn't actually matter what was going on, regardless of reality you still wanted to sell a narrative that you were somehow the underdog and moments away from death.

Execution Vote Day Two

With nineteen players alive - it will require ten votes to eliminate a player.

GuiltyLion [5]:

Junkochan, Thestatusquo, Firebringer, mastina, ProfessorDrapion

Dwlee99 [5]:

GuiltyLion, Titus, Datisi, Andresvmb, VP Baltar

Firebringer [2]:

Enchant, furtiveglance,

not voting [7]:

JohnnyFarrar, PenguinPower, Andante, Dannflor, Unowen, Lady Lambdadelta, Dwlee99


Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-02 22:58:35)

What about this VC makes you think town doesn't have any control? Dwlee isn't voting you, so if they're scum then are there four other scum on your wagon?

also, bit weird to compare my play here to a Mason game, when you're a Mason you literally can't be limmed, obviously I'm not going to feel as much pressure to towntell in that situation

This feels like shade for the sake of shade. That wasn't the point of my post when I mentioned that.

Even looking at the most recent VC, GL is

still

a major influence in the game. He's on the leading wagon and wouldn't even have the most blood on his hands on a green Dwlee flip, I think Datisi would look a lot worse at that point. Meanwhile, his own wagon only has two votes...how the hell is that inducing a panic here? Does it really make sense to scream into the heavens that town is doomed and has no control over this game when he's getting exactly what he wants and isn't in any real danger of being voted out? Town!GL is normally so much more collected and nuanced than this, not just from looking at his town play in hindsight but also when I played a Mason game with him. He doesn't particularly care for self-preservation as town, so seeing such an extreme reaction just from being suspected by players who don't have much influence in the game doesn't add up here.

This

is what I said. I mentioned the Mason game in addition to what I've seen from your past town games; the Mason game is relevant because I got to see your solving and thought processes in real time in our PT. That doesn't take away from the fact that I've seen your other town games and that they don't match your play in this current game.

I don't understand the point of quoting my post then cutting out most of it when responding. If you're town here, all that did was give you room to recontextualize what I said, which I don't see a town motivation for.

[Roden]

3) Roden wanting to catch up but ignoring questions. I asked a simple question in response to a long post he had and he ignored it. I am not in any PT that talks of overthrowing the king and talks only seemed to start after my suggestion in thread. I want to know who supports the king who would overthrow and who is ambivalent. Asking a simple question I hope can get an answer.

What. I've literally been responding to everyone, what question did I ignore?

[Roden]

Drapion and Mastina mentioned in the non-supporter PT that this looks like a major scum/perspective slip. From what I understand, GL has been a major player and influence in this game...yet he claims that town is not in control of this game. It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here and I don't think it can come from town.

GL has not really been influencing the game much since Shea became king. I would say GL has faced resistance on almost every post he's making. Same for me. The rabble rousing crowd just continually makes bad arguments and is trying to outweigh that with volume and noise.

Drapion and Mastina and Shea can sit there and cry wolf (literally) all day long, dwlee is still the correct yeet for today. It should have happened yesterday, but Shea took unilateral action on a town read he's claiming isn't even locktown, and then he and mastina (in separate threads where they couldn't be communicating mind you) each claimed Shea actually had no choice because I was advocating we lim dwlee. Shea did have a choice though. He could have done nothing, which would have been the proper play for the king, instead of mislimming a town.

Those three can tell whatever conspiracy theories they want, facts are facts.

I don't think any of those three are scum, but yes I do agree that they've gone into conspiracy theory territory. The non-supporter PT is very chaotic and became an echo chamber a while back, looking at the post dates, so that would likely explain why Drapion and Mastina have been loud and in unison. I think this makes them town though, it just reads as natural paranoia and I believe that they both just really want to be right. Though I also agree with some of their other reads; I like Mastina's reads on everyone in the non-supporter PT, and Drapion picked up on a few things that I like that I'll share when it becomes relevant later.

I think the theory that you and GL are a power wolf duo is exciting, but I don't think it's likely tbh. I haven't read your ISO yet, but based on vibes I think that you could be town and mixed in with scum.

Gonna have to disagree that you and GL don't have any influence though, you're both very clearly getting what you want so far. Facing resistance kinda proves that, because resistance can't happen without an opposing influence, and said resistance is hardly being taken seriously as it is. You have the majority of the player list hanging onto your every word, while that same majority either ridicules or ignores Mastina and Drapion. And there's clear dissent and a wish to overthrow Shea among several players, so I don't think this resistance that you're so wary of is as much of a threat as you're making them out to be.

Interesting. Who else is in the “clear dissent” I don’t need a long explanation. Just who please.

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

Ignoring is the wrong word.

More brushed off.

If there is clear dissent I’d expect more than one name. Of the PTs I have been in, that was not the reaction and an overthrow wasn’t discussed. Can you like list actual people wanting to overthrow the king?

Not trying to brush you off, I'm just trying to respond to as much as possible while catching up on ISOs while on a time limit. Listing every single dissenter just isn't high on my priority list right now, especially when one of the current topics involves several people discussing their intent to overthrow the King. When I say there's clear dissent it's because it's literally being discussed.

[Roden]

If people genuinely think I'm scum then I'm down to challenge someone, preferably GL. I'd like more of an explanation as well though.

[Roden]

Pretty obviously not scum by play but I'm used to people making bad reads on me for things that don't make sense at this point.

[Roden]

oh my god please don't challenge GL

oh my god please no one use this

Why, do you think we're somehow both town? I'm accused of having associatives and trying to save Dwlee (I wasn't, I literally shifted my read over the 24 hours that I came into the game, it isn't scummy to not know who's scum the moment I replace in), while GL and Dwlee have really bad associations.

[Roden]

Some thoughts I had in the non supporter PT during night

Dwlee started looking a lot worse after I started defending them, so I'm not as shocked after the flip today as I would've been yesterday. I don't think the wagon or the way they played makes much sense though.

I've changed my mind on Titus at this point, I feel like she would've tried to capitalize more on the Dwlee elim if she were scum. I also think some interactions between her and GL are anti-partnery, so most likely not S/S.

GL's response to my last post was really bad. It was just full of snipes at me and him making it clear how badly he wants to scum read me even though he knows it doesn't actually make any sense for me to be scum here. He's had a pretty consistent pattern of attacking and threatening anyone who suspects him all game, it doesn't really match up with his past town games.

Also his denial of using AtE is a very blatant lie and I feel confident that only scum would have to lie about it. And as an aside I find it very interesting that Dwlee never voted to eliminate him, not even to try to save themself. Just a single blank vote to nominate GL as King and then they never explained why.

Execution Vote Day Two

With nineteen players alive - it will require ten votes to eliminate a player.

GuiltyLion [5]:

Junkochan, Thestatusquo, Firebringer, mastina, ProfessorDrapion

Dwlee99 [5]:

GuiltyLion, Titus, Datisi, Andresvmb, VP Baltar

Firebringer [2]:

Enchant, furtiveglance,

not voting [7]:

JohnnyFarrar, PenguinPower, Andante, Dannflor, Unowen, Lady Lambdadelta, Dwlee99


Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-02 22:58:35)

At one point GL was a counter wagon to Dwlee and they were tied at five votes each. GL was voting Dwlee, but Dwlee was not voting GL. For whatever reason, Dwlee wasn't trying to survive the vote and didn't do anything noticeable to put their team in a better spot following their elim. But I could see them hesitating to shift momentum and vote out GL if they're both scum, since Dwlee doesn't look particularly more townie on a GL red flip, but GL on a surface level looks better on a Dwlee red flip. It's an opportunity cost that only exists if they're aligned and only hurts the scum team if they aren't.

I don't think it's a fake association either because you kind of have to dig to even notice it. Dwlee voting to try to put GL in power and then refusing to shift wagon momentum towards him to avoid their own elim looks very partnery.

[Roden]

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

Please elaborate on this with specific names.

At this point it's not really a thing anymore, reads shifted.

[Roden]

At this point it's not really a thing anymore, reads shifted.

No but at the time it was a thing so should be possible for you to list the names right?

Yes, and I did.

[Roden]

Also his denial of using AtE is a very blatant lie and I feel confident that only scum would have to lie about it.

Please quote the specific posts you are talking about when you say "AtE". I genuinely have no idea what you're referring to here

The quotes where I scum cased you.

Further, it's a baseless claim about my meta anyways. I can probably go back and find many instances of me whining and throwing fits as town when I'm getting run up. If I take the time to go compile some instances, will it affect your read?

Also want you to respond to this. Because I'm very confident I can find plenty of towngames in the past where I was far more riled up / emotional than I have been here. Every time you talk about "town!GL" and how I play you are making claims that simply aren't true.

Did anyone stop you from looking them up over the night phase? It's kinda performative to wait and keep asking to do something that doesn't require my permission.

[Roden]

Lol trial by combat alright. Let's make two scummy fucks fight to the death

This doesn't work because mafia won't challenge mafia. Only a scumread town would do this and it doesn't sound look a good idea

Majority decides on two players. Refusal means you get eliminated.

Johnny vs ???

Johnny's a bad vote, pick someone else.

[Roden]

At this point it's not really a thing anymore, reads shifted.

No but at the time it was a thing so should be possible for you to list the names right?

Yes, and I did.

Sorry I must be blind then, can you do it again?

Drapion and Mastina mentioned in the non-supporter PT that this looks like a major scum/perspective slip. From what I understand, GL has been a major player and influence in this game...yet he claims that town is not in control of this game. It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here and I don't think it can come from town.

GL has not really been influencing the game much since Shea became king. I would say GL has faced resistance on almost every post he's making. Same for me. The rabble rousing crowd just continually makes bad arguments and is trying to outweigh that with volume and noise.

Drapion and Mastina and Shea can sit there and cry wolf (literally) all day long, dwlee is still the correct yeet for today. It should have happened yesterday, but Shea took unilateral action on a town read he's claiming isn't even locktown, and then he and mastina (in separate threads where they couldn't be communicating mind you) each claimed Shea actually had no choice because I was advocating we lim dwlee. Shea did have a choice though. He could have done nothing, which would have been the proper play for the king, instead of mislimming a town.

Those three can tell whatever conspiracy theories they want, facts are facts.

I don't think any of those three are scum, but yes I do agree that they've gone into conspiracy theory territory. The non-supporter PT is very chaotic and became an echo chamber a while back, looking at the post dates, so that would likely explain why Drapion and Mastina have been loud and in unison. I think this makes them town though, it just reads as natural paranoia and I believe that they both just really want to be right. Though I also agree with some of their other reads; I like Mastina's reads on everyone in the non-supporter PT, and Drapion picked up on a few things that I like that I'll share when it becomes relevant later.

I think the theory that you and GL are a power wolf duo is exciting, but I don't think it's likely tbh. I haven't read your ISO yet, but based on vibes I think that you could be town and mixed in with scum.

Gonna have to disagree that you and GL don't have any influence though, you're both very clearly getting what you want so far. Facing resistance kinda proves that, because resistance can't happen without an opposing influence, and said resistance is hardly being taken seriously as it is. You have the majority of the player list hanging onto your every word, while that same majority either ridicules or ignores Mastina and Drapion. And there's clear dissent and a wish to overthrow Shea among several players, so I don't think this resistance that you're so wary of is as much of a threat as you're making them out to be.

Interesting. Who else is in the “clear dissent” I don’t need a long explanation. Just who please.

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

[Roden]

I see now why almost all of the non supporters scum read you Owen.

[Roden]

I thought combat was a Gladiate maybe but the 5% chance thing is weird. It would be funny if it's literally just a d20 roll.

[Roden]

the only post I'm seeing that you've quoted is 2705. How is that an emotional post or appealing to emotions of other people? That's virtually one of the most sober posts I made on D2 yesterday after removing myself from the game and enjoying a holiday for like 24+ hours, I had planned what I wanted to say and slept on it and I was very thorough in presenting my actual reasoning. What exactly is AtE about that post??

like, I was far more riled up and salty when I was fighting with Shea, it's baffling to me you think 2705 is an AtE, at all?

Did anyone stop you from looking them up over the night phase? It's kinda performative to wait and keep asking to do something that doesn't require my permission.

I want you to actually say on the record that you will re-evaluate your read on me before I go digging for examples of me being salty at being voted/scumread in the past. I want you to acknowledge that this meta based read is open to change when presented with direct evidence to the contrary.

I explained why it was AtE. I brought up multiple times the "town has no control" thing, the doom-saying, and the apparent lack of self awareness about thread influence. I didn't bring up the color coding stuff because that's literally AtE 101 and didn't think I had to, but that's one of the more blatant elements there.

Bringing up salty games isn't going to do much because that isn't what I'm addressing this game. Salt is one thing, I'm talking about your tone and your fits playing to am agenda. And I mentioned this in the PT as well but you've either OMGUS'd or threatened to OMGUS almost everyone who's suspected you at this point, so I guess I'd like to see a town game of this as well.

As an aside I'd also like to know your thoughts on Dwlee voting to nominate you as King and then refusing to vote you when you became a counter wagon. Because if scum had control over the game as you claimed then they intentionally chose not to mis-elim town!you and kill a scum buddy instead.

[Roden]

like I guess the AtE is "if you lim VPB after me town deserves to lose this game" but like, that's how I feel... and the overall point was to try to make it abundantly clear to people the conviction in my town!VPB read to the point that if I get limmed my words would remain in people's heads after the fact.

Why does VPB ever die if you flip town? You're not flipped yet and I still oppose an elim there.

[Roden]

It's literally a d20 roll lmao

[Roden]

I explained why it was AtE. I brought up multiple times the "town has no control" thing, the doom-saying, and the apparent lack of self awareness about thread influence. I didn't bring up the color coding stuff because that's literally AtE 101 and didn't think I had to, but that's one of the more blatant elements there.

color coding is AtE, are you serious?? I color code all the time

I don't know what else to say other than I just plain disagree with you that I was in danger and town didn't have control, I had 5 votes with a 6th (Andres) threatening to vote me and I townread half my wagon and scumread the people making decisions.

Is this a typo? You disagree that you were in danger and that town didn't have any control?

Bringing up salty games isn't going to do much because that isn't what I'm addressing this game. Salt is one thing, I'm talking about your tone and your fits playing to am agenda. And I mentioned this in the PT as well but you've either OMGUS'd or threatened to OMGUS almost everyone who's suspected you at this point, so I guess I'd like to see a town game of this as well.

Ok, this makes me not waste time to go back and look for examples then because I'm sure you're going to find ways they don't apply here.

Saying I was OMGUSing people who suspected me is a giant misrep, I haven't suspected Drap at any point, I have had Andres as lock town, I TR'd Firebringer. what are you even on

You're not going to go back and look for examples...because I clarified what I would need to see in order for it to affect my read? Sounds like you just don't want to do it because you know my meta assessment is correct.

You wanted Drap dead early on, and you've shaded and discredited Andres at different points. I can only really give you FB, hence why I said "almost".

As an aside I'd also like to know your thoughts on Dwlee voting to nominate you as King and then refusing to vote you when you became a counter wagon. Because if scum had control over the game as you claimed then they intentionally chose not to mis-elim town!you and kill a scum buddy instead.

Good thing I addressed this!

- I didn't like Dwlee's pushes on either Datisi or Dann, and I especially didn't like the casual naked vote on me to be King. There are several players voicing some doubt or suspicion on me, why isn't Dwlee engaging with any of them?

what I think is weirder is the run of Dwlee/Penguin/Junko votes on me. that's too many people voting me but not really engaging substantively with people like LLD/Lukewarm/Andante/Datisi who have pushed back against me being King or are campaigning elsewhere.

also Dwlee my other main issue is it felt like you had no real motivation to get involved in the King election and I feel like you should have had more opinions/influence there

do you think this is a fair reason to suspect you? why didn't you try harder to elect a King that you wanted?

P sure scum didn't intentionally chose not to miselim me, the thread momentum against Dwlee just prevailed, and Dwlee probably didn't vote me because they had already said they were townreading me and knew such a blatant survivalist 180 to vote me would get them killed.

Thread momentum that you said belonged to the scum? What? If Andres had voted you, considering your reads that would've been a pure six-player wagon. I don't know how you can claim that as anything other than intentional. If your only argument that Dwlee dies if they vote you, even though they were gonna die anyway...uh yeah, that's not how scum play.

you're also just being really fundamentally uncharitable Roden. like your argument rests on a thesis that scum!GL is trying to manipulate people into townreading him. Why do you

prefer

that explanation vs one where I'm just town and trying to be heard and not limmed

Lmao, "prefer." It's called a read. I have been very thorough about my read. Also you don't get to get to accuse people of being uncharitable after your play this game my dude.

I guess I should be fair and say 2/3 since mastina was a miss

Char/Maria, Luke, Math/Junko.

[Roden]

Char/Maria, Luke

Was townreading both of them before they flipped, sick zinger tho, you get a point.

Not gonna reply to the rest of your post since it seems like you're more interested in arguing than re-evaluating

Is this a serious post

Literally all of your posts is just telling me you disagree and that I'm wrong, but I've been pretty open to re-evaluating as I gain new info. Several of my reads have shifted over the past few days so I don't know how you could say that and actually mean it.

Actually what is the point of that reply, Roden? If scum me was faking an inaccurate scumread on ChariaR, why did I swap my vote to Dwlee at a crucial juncture of D1??

I think town!you should be a bit more open to re-evaluation when so many of your scum reads/suspected slots died early and flipped town.

Also you explained why you would vote Dwlee earlier? Thread momentum against Dwlee prevailed, didn't it? Or does that only apply when Dwlee was up against your counter wagon?

Spoiler: Big quote

so the fact that you're making such claims feels like... you are guessing what dwlee *should* be thinking, and claiming they're going against that, and i don't see evidence for what made you think that.

Datisi, I don't follow you on the Luke/Dwlee TMI point, specifically I think this claim is where the breakdown is. It's not hard for me to imagine Lukewarm seeing himself as the same level scumread for Dwlee as you based on these posts:

HURT: Lukewarm

Yeah yeah,I read the post, and I can't find the seven days thing

Did someone ask this is the scum pt and you forgot?

I want to say that this is town, because what scum is going to fake this argument

I don't think this is legit

Uh not datisi or lukewarm I got bad vibes when I was here before

hi dwlee why do you have bad vibes from me and lukewarm

You contradicted yourself on a townread on someone else by not townreading me, and I didn't agree with lukewarm calling junko town for making a silly argument

like yes Dwlee never explicitly said "My two (2) biggest scumreads are both Lukewarm and Datisi, at equal strength", but I don't think it's unreasonable for Luke to see how Dwlee has repeatedly scumread/shaded him alongside you and conclude that you're both Dwlee's main scumreads. And then I don't think it's weird for Luke to point out that Dwlee hasn't really mentioned Luke since, it's kinda just a sub-point of your larger point that Dwlee isn't really demonstrating any serious intent to solve.

so I agree with you Dwlee's play is still dodgy here fwiw I just don't see the Luke-Dwlee associative and I think you're kinda tunnel vision there.

@unwnd, am I right in understanding the point of your 1856 is that scum!Dwlee would be leaning harder into their personality/emotions/'quirk' to defuse pressure on themselves, and the fact that they're not doing that is 1) genuine and 2) not-survivalist, therefore town? How many games have you played/specced with Dwlee as scum that gave you this impression? I can see where you're coming from in that maybe Dwlee's play here isn't

scummy

, but I still feel a vortex of a complete absence of towniness from their play/reads, and still think that makes them a good lim since if they continue engaging at this shallow level I'm never gonna be comfortable letting them get close to endgame. and I've definitely had games with town!Dwlee before where I got townvibes and did not feel this way

Also in what universe does scum!GL with scum!Dwlee who wants to push town!Luke, write this post and then NK Luke??

Can you explain the issue here?

You wanted Drap dead early on, and you've shaded and discredited Andres at different points.

Actually also wanted to call out this is just a blatant falsehood, at no point have I wanted Drapion dead or shaded Andres. Like if you think this you're reading a different game than the one we're playing

Uh...gonna just assume you forgot. But this wasn't particularly hard to find.

has left literally no impression on me whatsoever, would lim on that basis

: {Charloux, Drapion, Penguin Power}

like whatever, I heavily suspect Titus/Dwlee/PenguinPower/Charloux/Bellaphant like, there's a solid number of scum in that pool, I am 1000% confident

GL to be honest I really dislike this pool. In a game where the Scum need to come out of their shell and make themselves likeable so that they’re picked for positions of power, all of the people you’re suspecting have not done that. I find that completely implausible.

actually I think it's kinda weird you zeroed in on this post and seemingly missed or didn't want to comment on like... the entire rest of the debate/back and forth I was having with Andante? Did you miss that Andante had said the same sentence just a few posts before about a Datisi/GL/VPB/Dann/UNOwen bloc of players? Did you have thoughts on my more measured and thought out replies to her?

so fmpov, knowing my alignment, after I got the King I voted for, I haven't gotten a council I've wanted, a single flip I've wanted this game, and I'm about to be limmed.

Are you? My assumption is that we're going to end up executing dwlee, unless they become magically obvtown when they next have time to post.

actually yeh I guess not, I thought there were more votes on me and when I saw Andres waffling I misread the momentum. obviously I'd prefer if Dwlee goes

[Roden]

All of that and then bragging for the past few days that you can totally prove my meta assessment of you wrong, and then backing out when I tell you what my meta assessment is, just doesn't come from town IMO. I don't see what you have to lose by linking the kinds of games I'm looking for, I told you multiple times now that I'm open to re-evaluation, and even if you think I'd just tunnel you anyway I don't see how that's a particularly bad thing? If your linked games prove my claims wrong then people will just see it; it's not like I'll be able to form a mob to vote you out either way, but it'll be obvious that I'm not actually open to re-evaluating you if people see that your games blatantly contradict my assessment and I still continue to claim I'm right anyway.

[Roden]

Roden, if GL is scum, why are you not voting him? Also, who else is scum? Why are you convinced Johnny is town?

What does voting GL right now do? There's no pressure from it, no one seems go he agreeing with here or in the PT but no one's really trying to stop me either. I'm more interested in discerning GL's alignment than trying to flip him outright, the same reason I wasn't voting him yesterday.

I posted thoughts on my reads in the PT but my other scum reads are LLD and Owen. Also not really opposed to an Andres elim. Dann's read on me is pretty bad considering the past few games and the PYP that just ended, but it would be weird if he were S/S with LLD. And this isn't necessarily a scum read, but my town read on Shea has lessened throughout today, I expected them to come at today at a different angle and haven't really seen that.

Johnny is town to me because Rhae felt super townie in the non-supporter PT. Dwlee forging associatives with unwnd on their way out the door also just doesn't make sense if they're partners. OTOH, Johnny doing pretty much nothing is a valid reason to want to vote him today, so I get why he's under suspicion. I just don't see much of a case on him right now.

[Roden]

Datisi what about my play this game actually makes sense as scum

[Roden]

"Alright Dwlee, I just replaced in and know you're going down, so I'm gonna hard defend you upon entry so that we're immediately associated with each other. Make sure to do absolutely nothing so that I look worse, meanwhile I'm going to attack obvtown GL so that I never receive any support in this game. Man I'm so good at scum it's scary"

[Roden]

I saw your case, it's just incorrect and not even remotely to how I or really anyone ever plays mafia

[Roden]

What does voting GL right now do? There's no pressure from it, no one seems go he agreeing with here or in the PT but no one's really trying to stop me either. I'm more interested in discerning GL's alignment than trying to flip him outright, the same reason I wasn't voting him yesterday.

This doesn't make much sense. You're not voting because you don't think you can get support...but you also are "discerning" his alignment still? So do you think he's scum or not?

Do you only vote people when it's popular or when you're 100% convinced? Is that your meta?

If I only voted people when it was popular, I wouldn't have voted Titus yesterday.

I don't like doing vanity votes, but yes I'll vote if I'm 100% convinced. I'm not 100% convinced on GL yet, if I was there wouldn't be any point in me engaging with him because I'm not gonna convince him that he's scum. I'm engaging (or arguing if you want to give a less charitable take) with him to gauge his tone and how he reacts, I want to see if he can convince me that I'm wrong and how he goes about doing it.

why should i town read you off of PYP, roden?

Not even just PYP since there are other recent town games. but that one is fresh enough that you should have a general idea of my town play. What do you think I'm doing differently that's out of my town range?

[Roden]

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

But I am a fool my friend, I do not know which specific people half the pt refers to?

I am absolutely certain that Roden hasn't yet responded because he is painstakingly devoted to making sure I get the most thorough and comprehensive list of names possible and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate those efforts. Thanks Roden!

Good thing I already did and you're just transparently making busy work posts here.

[Roden]

I saw your case, it's just incorrect and not even remotely to how I or really anyone ever plays mafia

Adding on to here, why didn't you Cop check me if you'd given your case on me that much thought? I already town read you, wouldn't it make more sense to figure out whether or not you could trust me and work with me, or if I was just trying to pocket you? Why check Mastina when no one was going to listen to her or try to work with her even with a green check?

[Roden]

Spoiler:

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

But I am a fool my friend, I do not know which specific people half the pt refers to?

I am absolutely certain that Roden hasn't yet responded because he is painstakingly devoted to making sure I get the most thorough and comprehensive list of names possible and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate those efforts. Thanks Roden!

Good thing I already did and you're just transparently making busy work posts here.

Where?

At this point it's not really a thing anymore, reads shifted.

No but at the time it was a thing so should be possible for you to list the names right?

Yes, and I did.

Sorry I must be blind then, can you do it again?

Drapion and Mastina mentioned in the non-supporter PT that this looks like a major scum/perspective slip. From what I understand, GL has been a major player and influence in this game...yet he claims that town is not in control of this game. It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here and I don't think it can come from town.

GL has not really been influencing the game much since Shea became king. I would say GL has faced resistance on almost every post he's making. Same for me. The rabble rousing crowd just continually makes bad arguments and is trying to outweigh that with volume and noise.

Drapion and Mastina and Shea can sit there and cry wolf (literally) all day long, dwlee is still the correct yeet for today. It should have happened yesterday, but Shea took unilateral action on a town read he's claiming isn't even locktown, and then he and mastina (in separate threads where they couldn't be communicating mind you) each claimed Shea actually had no choice because I was advocating we lim dwlee. Shea did have a choice though. He could have done nothing, which would have been the proper play for the king, instead of mislimming a town.

Those three can tell whatever conspiracy theories they want, facts are facts.

I don't think any of those three are scum, but yes I do agree that they've gone into conspiracy theory territory. The non-supporter PT is very chaotic and became an echo chamber a while back, looking at the post dates, so that would likely explain why Drapion and Mastina have been loud and in unison. I think this makes them town though, it just reads as natural paranoia and I believe that they both just really want to be right. Though I also agree with some of their other reads; I like Mastina's reads on everyone in the non-supporter PT, and Drapion picked up on a few things that I like that I'll share when it becomes relevant later.

I think the theory that you and GL are a power wolf duo is exciting, but I don't think it's likely tbh. I haven't read your ISO yet, but based on vibes I think that you could be town and mixed in with scum.

Gonna have to disagree that you and GL don't have any influence though, you're both very clearly getting what you want so far. Facing resistance kinda proves that, because resistance can't happen without an opposing influence, and said resistance is hardly being taken seriously as it is. You have the majority of the player list hanging onto your every word, while that same majority either ridicules or ignores Mastina and Drapion. And there's clear dissent and a wish to overthrow Shea among several players, so I don't think this resistance that you're so wary of is as much of a threat as you're making them out to be.

Interesting. Who else is in the “clear dissent” I don’t need a long explanation. Just who please.

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

[Roden]

I been skimming along but I need to work today so will respond to more later, wanted to jump in on that Dann post because that's easy to respond to without doing more rereading. I don't really get where all of the Junko support came from all of the sudden and want to spend time thinking about the votes there

I'm also maybe waffling on Lukewarm, I'm wondering if we just have major playstyle friction. I agree with everything TSQ just pointed out about his Titus read, it's the same issues I had with his LLD read, but I'm wondering if Luke kinda just... actually thinks like that? He had one post about how people read "confidence" into his reads that he doesn't feel is there which kinda resonated with me, it reminds me of similar issues I've had with Roden and S_S to a lesser degree, where I just chronically scumread the way they think about the game and what they decide to post and how they arrive at reads.

I saw VPB request that I do a reread of KTANE where I remember scumreading Luke, I'll try to do that as well as Shakespeare cause I feel like I vaguely remember Luke being Townie in Shakespeare. add it to the pile of meta homework

I was trying to find something in GL's ISO and saw this...what are you possibly referring to here? We only had two other games together and we were Masons in one of them.

[Roden]

I been skimming along but I need to work today so will respond to more later, wanted to jump in on that Dann post because that's easy to respond to without doing more rereading. I don't really get where all of the Junko support came from all of the sudden and want to spend time thinking about the votes there

I'm also maybe waffling on Lukewarm, I'm wondering if we just have major playstyle friction. I agree with everything TSQ just pointed out about his Titus read, it's the same issues I had with his LLD read, but I'm wondering if Luke kinda just... actually thinks like that? He had one post about how people read "confidence" into his reads that he doesn't feel is there which kinda resonated with me, it reminds me of similar issues I've had with Roden and S_S to a lesser degree, where I just chronically scumread the way they think about the game and what they decide to post and how they arrive at reads.

I saw VPB request that I do a reread of KTANE where I remember scumreading Luke, I'll try to do that as well as Shakespeare cause I feel like I vaguely remember Luke being Townie in Shakespeare. add it to the pile of meta homework

I was trying to find something in GL's ISO and saw this...what are you possibly referring to here? We only had two other games together and we were Masons in one of them.

viewtopic.php?t=88281&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Is this the game you're talking about??

[Roden]

What does voting GL right now do? There's no pressure from it, no one seems go he agreeing with here or in the PT but no one's really trying to stop me either. I'm more interested in discerning GL's alignment than trying to flip him outright, the same reason I wasn't voting him yesterday.

This doesn't make much sense. You're not voting because you don't think you can get support...but you also are "discerning" his alignment still? So do you think he's scum or not?

Do you only vote people when it's popular or when you're 100% convinced? Is that your meta?

If I only voted people when it was popular, I wouldn't have voted Titus yesterday.

I don't like doing vanity votes, but yes I'll vote if I'm 100% convinced. I'm not 100% convinced on GL yet, if I was there wouldn't be any point in me engaging with him because I'm not gonna convince him that he's scum. I'm engaging (or arguing if you want to give a less charitable take) with him to gauge his tone and how he reacts, I want to see if he can convince me that I'm wrong and how he goes about doing it.

why should i town read you off of PYP, roden?

Not even just PYP since there are other recent town games. but that one is fresh enough that you should have a general idea of my town play. What do you think I'm doing differently that's out of my town range?

Ok, I think you've had a pretty extensive back and forth here. Let's hear some conclusions about GL's alignment. Because frankly, I find this quibbling boring and not actually going anywhere.

I would like to see you vote someone.

Are you not reading the game? I've done all of that except vote, and I already told you when and why I'll vote.

[Roden]

Drapion you still haven't explained your case on my slot

[Roden]

Drapion you still haven't explained your case on my slot

Also what was the point of making a big scene in the PT about how wrong you were and how bad you your reads are and that you need to stop playing so aggressive and start reassessing the game...just to continue doing the exact same shit today?

Like, we were even having a conversation like you were actually trying to work with me. So I don't get the scum read on me here with zero explanation.

[Roden]

Like, I really need the actual townies in this ball of snakes to start playing better. It is very hard to sort when so many people are scumsiding

Who's scumsiding?

[Roden]

I think it's healthy for the game state to suspect people who are at the core of this game and 1) not receiving any real pressure, 2) have some questionable reads, and 3) are not getting targeted by the NK.

[Roden]

I think it's healthy for the game state to suspect people who are at the core of this game and 1) not receiving any real pressure, 2) have some questionable reads, and 3) are not getting targeted by the NK.

1) GL was legit targeted yesterday. 2) which questionable reads are those? 3) who are you referring to?

1) Feels very "have my cake and eat it too" to see GL say that he wasn't in danger, only for you to claim that he was. Y'all need to talk and come to a conclusion on that.

2) The reads on me, Drapion, Mastina, and flipped townies.

3) The...the core you just name dropped and told me to stop arguing with and instead blindly sheep.

[Roden]

what about the recent events makes johnny and/or roden look better and not worse, drapion?

Uh...Drapion scum reads both of us.

[Roden]

Oh. He didn't respond to me when I asked why his read hadn't changed.

[Roden]

Roden and Dannflor have been prodded

Sorry, currently reading through the games GL linked.

[Roden]

Gonna assume that means Dann never responded if he got prodded too. But I'm not particularly surprised because we had back to game games where one of us was scum and the other was town, town!Dann should've been able to respond with that in mind.

[Roden]

okay, i am home, i have coffee, time to properly read what y'all been up to

GL's response to my last post was really bad. It was just full of snipes at me and him making it clear how badly he wants to scum read me even though

he knows it doesn't actually make any sense for me to be scum here

. He's had a pretty consistent pattern of attacking and threatening anyone who suspects him all game, it doesn't really match up with his past town games.

i think the bolded part is scummy. it shows a sense of false confidence + misunderstandings of gamestate that i think comes from scum trying to make their stances be taken well while they know what they're saying is wrong. roden has done this a couple of times this game. in 2828, where he says that dwlee isn't in antispew. shutting up and fucking off from the game is about exactly what dwlee was doing there. read their iso close to that and tell me they weren't.

(sidenote, i think this behaviour is even more scum now that we know mastina is town and dwlee is scum - scum would want to give support to mastina but hide behind her.)

i already wrote about his case on gl making no sense to me, but like. i feel like it was designed as mud-flinging that he then had to walk back from. the "gl was afraid luke was gonna see through him" (2853) doesn't make sense. i get the argument roden's trying to make is that gl tried to "manipulate" luke with the "keep trying to case me", but like in what world is that something that scum does to get someone to back off or townread them? it doesn't make "intuitive" sense from town (so why would scum bother faking it). the backtracking in 2967 about the mason-game point feels similar.

Pretty obviously not scum by play but I'm used to people making bad reads on me for things that don't make sense at this point.

i don't see how town-roden here thinks that he is "very obviously not scum by play". he replaced into a scummy slot, he defended scum, he tried a counterwagon to what is very likely town, 90% of his contribution is shading another very likely town... what is obvtown about him here?

i know townies sometimes percieve themselves to be more townie than they really are. but like, i genuinely do not believe that town roden actually believes he should be townread by anyone here. from what i see, the main crux of his obvtown argument is 3339, which boils down to "scum-me wouldn't play this bad". i have used that

exact

line as scum so so many times. it's repeating the same thing over and over and hoping that other people believe it just because you keep saying it. but it doesn't make it true. nobody should buy that argument.

roden can say that my case on him doesn't make sense, but multiple people have expressed a scumread on him. we can't all be scum. hell, he said he townreads me.

to respond to 3356 while i'm at it - i checked mastina because she was very loud in defending dwlee and i thought it would make sense for scum in this gamestate to loudly defend dwlee. also i know mastina can have very good reads as town, and i still have hope that we'll be able to see that happen.

This...doesn't actually respond to my posts in any significant way at all. This feels very intentionally like a surface level read on a generic base of how a person may play the game of mafia. This doesn't address your read on

me

, at all, just a surface look at my actions without taking any context of how I played and how I am as a player at all. I could understand if I was just some rando you've never met before, but this is far from our first game we've played together, and you've modded games where you've seen my thought process as both alignments.

The explanation on the Mastina Cop check also doesn't address my issue at all. It's an outright avoidance of answering my concerns. You're claiming you hope that she will have better reads since it's possible for her as town but you've done nothing to further that goal. All you've done is either ignore, ridicule, or argue with her over and over. As a Cop you should be trying to use your checks to build/expand the town core, but all you've done is try to invalidate it. You aren't working with her and your read on one me is just surface level with zero nuance, your Cop check is just useless at this point and you just seem...content, with that.

[Roden]

viewtopic.php?t=89769&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Scum game of mine that Datisi modded

viewtopic.php?t=89922&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Town game of mine that Datisi modded

viewtopic.php?t=89657&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Town game of mine that Datisi was also town in

I gave my opinion on Marci in the hood. I scum read her, but I think if she actually is scum here then it's been a weird play on her end. Like, someone mentioned that her play doesn't make sense regardless of alignment, and I heavily agree with that. I could theorize that maybe she's scum and trying to distance/create fake associatives/anti-spew, but she was at zero votes when suspicion started piling on her. So why do that? Especially when earlier in the Day she got run up to E-2 and then had her wagon disintegrate with barely any effort? I don't understand why scum would intentionally play weird and get themself run up twice within like three days.

Though I do think it was weird that she was at E-2 then dropped to zero votes so quickly the first time. I don't think she did anything super townie that would have killed her wagon like that.

In that game, I make the exact argument for Marci, who did flip town, that I made for Dwlee. I argued that Marci's play didn't make sense as scum, especially the part about getting herself run up multiple times without trying to be townier.

I gave my opinion on Marci in the hood. I scum read her, but I think if she actually is scum here then it's been a weird play on her end. Like, someone mentioned that her play doesn't make sense regardless of alignment, and I heavily agree with that. I could theorize that maybe she's scum and trying to distance/create fake associatives/anti-spew, but she was at zero votes when suspicion started piling on her. So why do that? Especially when earlier in the Day she got run up to E-2 and then had her wagon disintegrate with barely any effort? I don't understand why scum would intentionally play weird and get themself run up twice within like three days.

Though I do think it was weird that she was at E-2 then dropped to zero votes so quickly the first time. I don't think she did anything super townie that would have killed her wagon like that.

I do see your point, and since I town read you and Datisi I feel like your takes have some weight and that's something I'm taking into account

Occam's Razor says Marci's probably just scum here and that she's being confusing on purpose to try to go for "too scummy to be scummy"

Gut says that I'm missing info that would explain her actions

Datisi and I having a very similar conversation to the one we had this game.

I gave my opinion on Marci in the hood. I scum read her, but I think if she actually is scum here then it's been a weird play on her end. Like, someone mentioned that her play doesn't make sense regardless of alignment, and I heavily agree with that. I could theorize that maybe she's scum and trying to distance/create fake associatives/anti-spew, but she was at zero votes when suspicion started piling on her. So why do that? Especially when earlier in the Day she got run up to E-2 and then had her wagon disintegrate with barely any effort? I don't understand why scum would intentionally play weird and get themself run up twice within like three days.

Though I do think it was weird that she was at E-2 then dropped to zero votes so quickly the first time. I don't think she did anything super townie that would have killed her wagon like that.

I do see your point, and since I town read you and Datisi I feel like your takes have some weight and that's something I'm taking into account

Occam's Razor says Marci's probably just scum here and that she's being confusing on purpose to try to go for "too scummy to be scummy"

Gut says that I'm missing info that would explain her actions

Even more examples of how and why I will town read a scum read player.

The main issue Datisi is that you have so many games to cross reference and a Cop check to fall back on and you utilized none of it to read me, instead opting to to build a case that could fit any generic rando without trying to apply any of your knowledge about me. This is despite the fact that you have consistently done so as town.

roden might be townie for 539. i don't think it makes sense for him to be trying to pocket me, it's not a read that will get townread by others, and it instinctively makes sense based on what he's seen from my games. (though i would warn against reads like that because i can be useless as scum too, but y'know. he's town for it.)

Like I guess I just think it's natural for town who know they can get pocketed to be afraid of being pocketed and I don't think it's true that people who are seen as scummy never get pocketed and that Dats probably knows that

i don't look at every townread i ever get and think "omg what if i ma getting pocketed oh no!!!"

if the gamestate is such where it makes sense that people would be trying to pocket me (i'm conftown, i'm a popular townread, etc) i'm gonna be thinking of it more. if it's like this where i think people would have less incentive to do so (i'm getting wagoned, more popular scumread) i'm gonna be thinking of it less

could roden be pocketing me? sure i guess. do i think both the gamestate and the nature of his read make it much less likely, and therefore there's no point to me worrying about it at the moment? yes

[Roden]

I'm so confused right now because you weren't even on my radar until you flubbed your case, I was more or less ready to die town locking you

[Roden]

re roden's 3773:

first, games that i mod don't register to me as meta. i don't always read everything that i mod, and what i do read, only bits of it actually stick with me because i'm informed when i read it. same with scumgames.

the fact that you in one previous game townread someone for the same reason you did here is meaningless. you're a good enough scum player (and obviously you remember that instance) and faking a "they're playing too weirdly to be scum" is a really easy read to fake and i do not think you actually believe scum-you wouldn't be able to fake it or that it's town-indicative for you in any way.

The main issue Datisi is that you have so many games to cross reference and a Cop check to fall back on and you utilized none of it to read me, instead opting to to build a case that could fit any generic rando without trying to apply any of your knowledge about me. This is despite the fact that you have consistently done so as town.

reading you is not my biggest priority, i was not gonna use a cop check on you when i felt there were better targets.

idk why you're quoting those posts by me there, because me saying "hey, roden is townreading me and he probably wouldn't be faking such a townread as scum because it doesn't bring anything to him strategically" is supposed to prove, like, what exactly.

i wasn't using meta there either

, i had no idea whether scum-you is more or less likely to fake a seemingly-weird townread on me, yet i read you based on that anyway.

idk if you meant to quote the same post 3 times.

You aren't counter arguing with me here, you're literally agreeing with me right now. The point I'm making is that you aren't taking anything into how I play the game or any past games into account. There's zero nuance and you're flat out admitting that you aren't actually trying to read me. Like...that isn't the winning argument you think it is.

You're claiming I'm a "good enough scum player" while also claiming that I'm intentionally throwing this game and playing scummy on purpose as scum. These claims can't both exist and aren't supported by any evidence of my past games, you're just making a claim and hoping people believe you. Everything you've said about me has been to fit an agenda and not even bother to try to see how or why I would do certain things as town.

It's gotten so bad that you're now claiming that I must have copied a random read I had in a previous game we played in back in the summer and that I, immediately upon replacing in, specifically decided to shape a fake read on scum buddy Dwlee so that it looked like my genuine read on Marci. Why is that more believable to you than me just forming reads a certain way as town and then finding an example of that when looking through games we both played in? What exactly is my town meta if it's somehow that indistinguishable from my scum meta, yet you're somehow convinced that this is still my scum meta?

Your confusion about why I quoted those posts is also baffling here because they're examples of you using previous knowledge of my meta to make a read. You obviously can do that. But in this game you just refuse to do so and complaining that I'm bringing up games you modded, like your tone makes makes seem like as if it somehow isn't fair to you even though all I've done is point you have mountains of data for you to cross reference with my play this game.

[Roden]

reading you is not my biggest priority, i was not gonna use a cop check on you when i felt there were better targets.

This alone is a massive contradiction and is not a townie thought process for someone who wrote a case on me during the night phase then did nothing to try to assess me or my meta.

[Roden]

you are not the only person i wrote a case on???

That can't be your only takeaway from my posts

[Roden]

roden since you're in non-supporter pt, can you check out the way drapion was hyping up mastina and focusing especially on how people should not vote dwlee? (even though, logically, that was the weakest conclusion from mastina's case)

i think it's p sus, and i think the way he didn't bring that "DO NOT VOTE DWLEE" into the main thread and instead just hard chainsaws the people attacking dwlee without really outright defending them also could come from scum who wants to present differently to the hood vs the main thread

i also think his reaction to the dwlee flip feels fake. i think based on his general confidence and attitude he would be more likely to double down in the same way mastina did if he were town

I feel like this is his town play but don't think he's ever getting near ELO. Reading his posts in the PT just make me think that him and Mastina are fellow conspiracy theorists who fed into each other. If he's scum then he's ineffectual scum, because I was one of the only other people suspecting GL, yet he scum read my slot and didn't engage with me when I was casing GL.

Johnny and Titus are the only ones who tried to engage with me about GL and ask me questions, though even with Johnny he just said something like "Wait you still think GL is scum?" so he wasn't exactly a supporter either. Either way, Drapion didn't really try to capitalize on me entering the game and agreeing with one if his scum reads. If he's scum then I don't know what exactly he's doing to try to achieve a mis-elim on town!GL by arguing with me while also not posting his case on me.

From what I remember in Lost, his reaction to the Dwlee flip felt in line with how he'd react to being wrong in that game. I'd say he does feel less egotistical though.

[Roden]

I guess we're just pretending yesterday didn't happen

[Roden]

I guess we're just pretending yesterday didn't happen

What does this mean

Nom list + vote list are bad

Johnny got suspected yesterday and very obviously got overwhelmed into not trying to defend himself because the core four forced their will and refused to reassess, exactly like I said y'all were doing. And now the core want to continue to push and defend the same exact slots minus Johnny. Nothing changed.

[Roden]

Yeah, having a conftown in an unkillable role, so dumb. Gosh how can I be sooooo stupid

You want to give a gun to someone who knows will kill you, but apparently this is rational because somehow its better for you to be dead and that person who has bad reads to continue killing town.

Yes, this is ridiculous. You should realize its ridiculous. Just because she is town doesn't mean she is right, you know this.

Jesus

We're in season 8 now I can feel it

[Roden]

Who do you want to kill Roden?

Dann, Owen, Datisi (Pending), GL (Pending), Enchant

[Roden]

Who is the core 4, i would assume from context you mean like GL/VPB/Datisi/?? but Datisi hasn't even posted yet

ive always thought of it as core 3 of GL/VPB/Dats. Don't think scum are gonna shake that up.

Andres. Scum killing him is a fuck up IMO.

[Roden]

Is there a mech reason we can't assign Datisi's Cop check as Kingsguard if he ends up getting a green check?

[Roden]

OK reread the set up, I get it now. Kigsguard basically promote one of their own, and we also need a Master of Whispers.

[Roden]

VOTE: Dann

[Roden]

Challenge: Enchant

[Roden]

I kinda just want to die without inconveniencing town with a mis-elim or an early day end.

[Roden]

Or make Pooky look for yet another replacement either.

[Roden]

Spoiler:

Ok, so here is my actual concern and maybe i'm fucking crazy, but I don't care.

Datisi is traditionally extremely good at playing cop in my experience. In both those games linked, Datisi got guilties immediately on scum. Hell, first time I came back to the site, Datisi guiltied me without knowing my meta at all. So I'm just sitting here like, wtf is going on this game? That's not evidence alone, but it has me tweaked for sure because I was sort of expecting town!datisi to have proven himself by the second shot.

Datisi has also seemed very placating this game. He isn't really mixing it up with anyone (except dwlee) in a way that feels like Datisi when he wants someone dead. There's no paranoia about me being expressed, and I felt like the town read on me was abnormally easy. I've kind of set this aside because I was willing to trust in my datisi town read, but the results have me very concerned this was a ploy to keep me placated. I think scum!tisi knows I'm more willing to give him some leeway when I'm town.

I'm also bugged by the fact that both of Datisi's cop results are leading to people heading directly into council slots. Now, this makes a certain amount of sense if you trust Datisi, but it did occur to me this morning that the whole "kill Johnny and use that as a way to appoint Mastina prince" plan originated with Datisi. I felt like that was a very weird thought to just randomly have, especially when Datisi has been a little disengaged at times this game. Still, it felt like it could be real yesterday. Now, we have Andres dying (which feels like a weird scum shot to me despite him being widely townread), and the result just happens to be on Titus so she is the obvious choice to be Kingsguard Commander? That's a major fucking coincidence I do not like at all.

Titus is playing weird all game saying she wants chaos, and in the Kingsguard thread made a strange post about maybe not wanting to be commander, then when I questioned her on it, she immediately self votes.

I also started thinking about why the fuck the tracker keeps dying (seems worthwhile if you're hiding scum actions on council) and why Pooky would make a game that just results in follow the cop if town makes semi-reasonable choices on D1. There is just a lot of fuckey shit that's happening and I'm tinfoiling out of my brain that this is all a big risky scum play to sway or change council control.

Someone tell me I'm insane and have me committed.

Like of course that entire plan would crumble if Datisi ever flipped, but you'd have to be a paranoid maniac to flip the cop.

Hi.

[Roden]

I really don't believe that

Just a hunch

[Roden]

I'll give you a hint

Johnny's silent apathy might have something to do with it

[Roden]

Yeah I knew you'd just say "what?"

What are your thoughts on Johnny not bothering to defend himself or engage with anyone? Why do you think he didn't try to challenge me in the death pit when he was pressured to do so?

[Roden]

Can you answer the question

[Roden]

I literally have no clue why Johnny played like that. That'd my answer. What have you learned from these questions

Do you see me scum casing you? Calm the fuck down, your intensity is unwarranted and I won't be engaging with you if that's how you'll choose to talk to me. I'll just match your energy otherwise and I don't want to deal with that kind of stress.

I want to understand your perspective on what's happening, and I want you to understand mine. I'd like for you to at least guess at Johnny's motives.

[Roden]

Wait what the fuck

[Roden]

challenge: drapion

I didn't see this...I thought the fight was gonna be Fire/Furtive

I was digging for something, that's just a big fucking waste of time now

[Roden]

Don’t like how both Firered and Roden slot have voted for Dann as King.

[Roden]

Since scum don't seem to want to Roleblock you, let alone kill you

Maybe claim who you're Cop checking so we can skip past the part tomorrow where everyone complains about your Cop check being bad

[Roden]

Are we going to lose both Eiralox and GL.
Why is everyone so demotivated in this game?
I feel like we have a good solve going.

VP death was dumb and Drapion didn't learn shit

[Roden]

Looks like the JK has a guilty here

[Roden]

Btw theres no scum in the council hood. Everyone in the council knew where the protection was going. It was planned out.
Unless one of yall wants to be crazy and call this scum WIFOM of going no kill when they down 2 players.

Why would scum council make themselves known...?

[Roden]

A Night of Peace - No one has died!

With thirteen players alive - it will require seven votes to eliminate a player.

Trial by Combat has been increased to 15% chance of death - there is still a limit of two trials per day.

Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-22 21:58:35)



I will be on vacation 12/17 - 12/24 - Ydrasse will be running the game in my absence, Happy Holidays!

We're currently 10v3, aren't we? Scum aren't at a numbers disadvantage; intentionally giving up a kill to let scum council members more effectively deep wolf is kind of a basic play here.

[Roden]

How is literally anyone scum reading Firebringer at this point

[Roden]

How is literally anyone scum reading Firebringer at this point

I don't know, maybe you should read the case made on him by UNOwen and the skeevy way he tried to push me vs Dwlee on D2

Owen is literally scum making a bad case and trying desperately to survive.

Firebringer's "skeevy" push might as well conftown him and I don't know how you don't see that. Dwlee did literally nothing to survive on D2, like your argument is that pushing you vs Dwlee is bad but literal flipped scum Dwlee did nothing with that push and never voted you. Literally what was the point if Firebringer is scum?

Blahh blah blah scum doesn't play that way, whatever, I know nobody buys that argument. But the assumption that scum are playing so poorly that they all try to associate themselves with a sinking ship with literally zero gain is just stupid. I'm sorry but assuming scum are competent is always better than assuming scum are incompetent (without obvious cause I guess) and I will always suspect people who think otherwise.

also who do you think is scum on the council if not FB

FB is the only one that really could be scum IMO, maybe Shea in a fraction of universes. Datisi is town, Andante was town, Mastina was cleared by Datisi

Titus also cleared by Datisi

I have a scum reads list.

[Roden]

My associatives with Dann are bad how, precisely?

Dann has no reason or established trajectory to post 1230 if you are town, sorry you got caught by a bad play by your partner but them's the breaks sometime

Uh... given the timing of that, and my activity, doesn't it feel like trying to buddy into someone Dann thought would be active and then dropped off the face of the earth?

That's a perfectly available strategem.

Also, given the more recent interactions involve Dann literally trying to kill me, ignoring that is... a lot ridiculous.

Are you just gonna pretend anti-associatives and distancing don't exist

Why can't Dann distance from you, then drop off the face of the earth when he realized it was too obvious and would be linked to you once he got flipped

Because his flip very much was guaranteed yesterday

[Roden]

Both fires are getting scum read is uh, interesting

Both are town by play but Andante basically town told for Firered before the replacement as well

[Roden]

My associatives with Dann are bad how, precisely?

Dann has no reason or established trajectory to post 1230 if you are town, sorry you got caught by a bad play by your partner but them's the breaks sometime

Uh... given the timing of that, and my activity, doesn't it feel like trying to buddy into someone Dann thought would be active and then dropped off the face of the earth?

That's a perfectly available strategem.

Also, given the more recent interactions involve Dann literally trying to kill me, ignoring that is... a lot ridiculous.

Are you just gonna pretend anti-associatives and distancing don't exist

Why can't Dann distance from you, then drop off the face of the earth when he realized it was too obvious and would be linked to you once he got flipped

Because his flip very much was guaranteed yesterday

His so called distancing was done the day before his death, when Johnny was the one on the block. He didn't even show up yesterday.

What are you saying that disagrees with what I'm saying

[Roden]

Both fires are getting scum read is uh, interesting

Both are town by play but Andante basically town told for Firered before the replacement as well

Andante was not town before replacing out, and Fire hasn't been town since his replace in.

How do you know that when all you did was say hmmm when Andante was here

[Roden]

Dann, Owen, Datisi (Pending), GL (Pending), Enchant

ok, so you're asserting Datisi is scum on the council who no killed to become even deeper wolf so that he can... continue to be forced to clear town or guilty his buddies? brilliant

also your passionate defense of FB feels kinda white knighty lol

Yes, Datisi's Cop checks sure have been debilitating so far, like his...Mastina check, who was obvtown...or his Titus check, who was obvtown, and who he literally hard defended right up until somebody said "Titus scummy" in the council PT and single-handedly shifted his read on her...

Like did you miss the part where people were getting fed up with his bad checks and he was starting to gain suspicion

"Passionate defense" you mean the handful of posts explaining my town read on the dude who's said I'm in his PoE

[Roden]

shouldn't u be challenging him to a duel if ur so certain LLD

I’d prefer me and Furtive do the duels today.

I'd prefer if you engaged in a duel that muted you for the rest of the game

[Roden]

Clicked on post 100 for context and uh...

VOTE: Dannflor

LLD is not a bad choice but I think Dannflor is easier to read

can i get your thought process behind this post and vote?

I want a King I would trust to be a skilled player if town

LLD is definitely skilled but my experience/impression of her is that she's the type of player who tunnels her scumreads and puts a ton of pressure on them to box them out of a game, and I think that's an easier playstyle to replicate as scum. If she does similar here and vigs a townie, it'd be hard for me to discern whether town!LLD was simply wrong or whether she's mafia

whereas town!Dann is a flexible player, he's very transparent about his thought processes and usually displays a ton of authenticity/paranoia as his reads change that I think is much harder to convincingly emulate as scum.

so I feel I would have an easier time sussing him out if he's mafia than LLD. frankly I also wanted to start an alternative wagon rather than just jump on the LLD train

in other news, I don't like 35 it gives me a LAMISTy vibe and this:

i do a lot of stressed tinfoil posting when i'm town in an important position.

and i don't think i'm capable of replicating that stressed tinfoil posting as scum.

kinda feels like bullshit to me? Give yourself credit you are a capable scum player and I don't see why you'd genuinely expect us to believe you couldn't handle being a scum King

i explained in my d3 intro post why i think your play very much makes sense coming from a partner replacing in

defending johnny makes sense as a buddy or as t/s and the defense itself is meh

and i am not very moved by most "i wouldn't have done this as scum" arguments because yeah

i don't feel like your scumread on gl is genuine because it feels like nitpicking stuff that isn't actually ai

if you don't feel like you can sell us on him being scum, why are you wasting so much energy arguing with him instead of trying to work with others elsewhere

Datisi arguing against self-meta, GL arguing that scum should be seen as capable players

None of that aged well lmao

[Roden]

@fire - I'm certainly not gonna argue I have like,

great

associatives with Dann lol. it's fair to be suspicious of me here I get that. tho @roden I'd prefer if you didn't try to do these pointless dunks unless you're actually gonna vote me and sell me to the PL

Challenge: GuiltyLion

Does this work for you

[Roden]

I'm gonna be annoyed if no one accepts my challenge for like the third day in a row and we lose another obvtown to Drapion

[Roden]

Challenge: furtiveglance

I wanna try this first

[Roden]

Firebringer
ProfessorDrapion
PenguinPower (Roden)

mastina

Andante (fireisredsir)

Titus

Lady Lambdadelta

Dwlee99

Rhaenyra (JohnnyFarrar)

This is everyone in the non-suppporter PT. I know I'm town, and I town read the other three who haven't been confirmed yet.

I feel like...I have to be wrong somewhere. Otherwise four scum supported Shea, who I also town read. Which I mean, I guess that's possible, in that case I wanna look at who worked to secure Shea's nomination. But this actually makes me think it isn't GL now, like yeah he didn't want Junko nominated (who flipped town after Math replaced in) but I don't see why scum says no to one town nominee just to push for another townie instead?

[Roden]

Titus

Roden

fireisredsir

Thestatusquo

Unowen

GuiltyLion

Firebringer

Datisi

mastina

Lady Lambdadelta

ProfessorDrapion

furtiveglance
Enchant

Green are Cop checks, blue are who I think are town, yes I know I'm blue but giving myself a different color from everyone else is dumb

Let's say I am wrong on Datisi, my PoE solve means Owen/Furtive/Enchant are the scum team

What's potentially wrong with this and where do I need to reassess (besides Drapion)

[Roden]

Vote: FireisRedsir

Can we kill this please?

Do you think the team is Firered/Mastina/Datisi?

[Roden]

Vote: FireisRedsir

Can we kill this please?

Do you think the team is Firered/Mastina/Datisi?

Hmm, possible but not likely?

Mastina/Datisi is a pair that fits. So does Firebringer/Enchant so Does......a few other combinations.

But it runs through RedFire

I only ask because you said you scum read Mastina, unless that changed and I just couldn't find it in your ISO. So if Mastina is scum then Datisi has to be scum. But I don't see how those two + Firered makes any sense here because I'm pretty sure they know they have to kill the people with green checks. Dwlee interactions are also weird if so. Mastina and Firered defending/town reading me also feels really off especially since Firered went out of his way to convince Datisi that I'm town.

Granted, idk what the council PT did last night, maybe they protected Titus. But I kinda think they protected Firebringer, since he apparently didn't Track Datisi. So why isn't Titus dead?

[Roden]

Am I the only one who has noticed that Enchant hasn't done anything in several game days.

He also rejected my challenge.

Kinda feeling that the duels are a strictly anti town mechanic lol.

[Roden]

Challenge me Owen

[Roden]

Who are the 4 other crazy mofos

The 5 are:

Shea
Me
Mastina
Titus
You

and before you say you would never do that, come on now.

I would. Don't really think it's all that crazy of a play tbh.

[Roden]

My main problem with the scum kills is that we literally told scum we would vote out Datisi the Day before ELO. If we somehow don't hit scum for the next two Days, then Datisi has five green checks when we hit 9 players left. If Datisi is town when we elim him there then we have 5 conftown vs 3 scum...there's zero way to mis-elim anyone in that ELO.

They aren't killing conftowns, just Trackers who never got confirmed. They aren't stopping the Cop in any way, even though they were directly told that our conftowns will outnumber the scum team by the time we reach ELO.

Somebody make this make sense.

[Roden]

Y'all are reading Mastina's posts??

[Roden]

Honestly, would we even be having this conversation if the Cop was literally anyone besides Datisi

[Roden]

My main problem with the scum kills is that we literally told scum we would vote out Datisi the Day before ELO. If we somehow don't hit scum for the next two Days, then Datisi has five green checks when we hit 9 players left. If Datisi is town when we elim him there then we have 5 conftown vs 3 scum...there's zero way to mis-elim anyone in that ELO.

They aren't killing conftowns, just Trackers who never got confirmed. They aren't stopping the Cop in any way, even though they were directly told that our conftowns will outnumber the scum team by the time we reach ELO.

Somebody make this make sense.

Did you include combat trials

I mean, I don't think any green checks are gonna duel any time soon.

[Roden]

Probably the same world where everyone was approaching Luke with pitchforks and then scum killed him anyway

[Roden]

Probably the same world where everyone was approaching Luke with pitchforks and then scum killed him anyway

im telling u this tracker role has some sort of hidden mechanic that scum don't want town to have.
Maybe it will give me wings like red bull

Tbh it kinda feels like this is true.

Either that or Tracker can expose the secret scum abilities.

[Roden]

OK it feels really fucking off that the duels won't kill off any of the scummy slots but managed to kill the only obvtown slot who signed up

Like...our RNG can't be

that

bad. Statistically the rolls should've been in our favor.

[Roden]

Is there anything in the lore where somebody would fix fights so a certain person would win? Because scum could legit have that as an ability.

[Roden]

Flavor

Mathblade worked feverishly at the table over dozens of ingredients, so many back orders needed to be made, Junkochan really left things a mess when she left.

Meeting with the spies at night through the evening, meeting with the small council throughout the day, he had barely any time left over to sleep yet he was expected to be the local CVS pharmacy too.

He deserved raise but that miserly purple pokemon would only go "arf arf" when asked for more money. Maybe he should just go on strike - show them how much they all needed him.

Realizing he couldn't really get tonight's orders done without pulling another all nighter, the old man took a swig out of the caffeine bottle, suddenly he felt incredibly alert - like he could do anything. Yes Yes YEEEEEEES!

Mathblade was killed on Night Two. He was aligned with the

Town

King Shea must assign the following powers today before end of day:

Grand Maester
Master of Whisperers

With seventeen players alive - it will require nine votes to eliminate a player.

Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-08 14:58:35)

Flavor

A trial by combat is a means by which a party can prove their innocence when accused of a crime in the Seven Kingdoms. In lieu of a standard trial where a lord - or a council of them - hears testimony from the involved parties and makes a ruling, one or all parties may choose the option of a trial by combat.

Only highborn noblemen have the right to request a trial by combat: smallfolk do not possess this right. Noblewomen apparently also have the right to request a trial by combat but are not expected to fight themselves.

If a highborn is accused of a crime, at any point during the trial held by the local lord he can demand his right to a trial by combat. This right is held to be so inviolable that even a lord that is fully convinced that the accused should die would be hesitant to simply deny such a request (if it is made in public, at least). Even members of the royal family or high officials such as the Hand of the King would feel incapable of denying the request if it was made publicly.

In a trial by combat the accused may represent themselves in combat or, if unable (such as if they are female, injured, crippled, a dwarf, or otherwise incapacitated), may ask for a champion to represent them. The presiding lord may, at least, demand that they pick a champion from currently available warriors, i.e. instead of allowing them to name a champion currently located on the far side of Westeros, attempting to try to delay the trial by weeks.

A trial by combat does not, necessarily, need to be fought to the death. It is fought until one man yields - though if the accused is representing himself he would fight to the death to avoid a certain execution, and even the champion of an accused man will often fight to the death due to potential reward from the accused if he wins. The fight can also end if the accuser withdraws the accusation, or the accused confesses.

The victorious party is held to have had his or her case judged fairly by the gods (be it the Seven, the Old Gods of the Forest, or whatever they worship) and has proven their innocence in the eyes of the gods. Hence, if the accused party is victorious, they are cleared of all charges. If the accused or their champion is defeated, however, then they are considered guilty and condemned to death. While in theory the gods will favor the righteous party, most often the winner tends to simply be the strongest, the quickest, or just the luckiest.

Trial by Combat Rules

A player may challenge any other player to trial by combat during the day. If it is accepted - the players will gather their weapons and fight to the

death

until reasonably satisfied. [There is a 5% chance of either player dying in a trial]

Only two trials may occur on each day. First come first served.

Challenge other players by typing in the thread

Challenge: Target

, accept challenges with

Accept Challenge

and quoting the challenging post.

I forgot duels weren't actually available at day start, a bit of time passed first. I think we were all too weirded out by the sudden RNG death mechanic to notice that.

I think the duels might actually be a scum ability. I don't think the delayed start to the mechanic is a mod error, because I think we would just be informed if it was.

[Roden]

Firebringer, what possible reason does scum have to let town!Datisi bring five conftown into ELO?

[Roden]

Also why wouldn't a scum Cop want to keep the role to themself and out of town hands? That alone is a benefit for scum!Datisi. Even better is that a scum flip means we have zero conftown going into ELO, that sounds like a good trade to me.

[Roden]

I don't think scum have their entire wincon ride on the hope we paranoia mis-elim the single most difficult-to-elim player in the game. You're gonna have to explain the logistics on that one because I don't see it.

[Roden]

Why are you asking who to push and not just scum hunting

[Roden]

Uh huh

Anyway could you answer the question

[Roden]

Also is there any particular reason you avoided my challenge if you wanted me dead

[Roden]

Tbh if you actually are scum then idk why you try to vote me here if Datisi is a scum buddy, you kinda need me in ELO so that Drapion can throw and vote me out when it's actually pivotal

Though if you're scum and Datisi is town, voting me out is just bad play because Datisi brings 5 conftown to ELO, my survival doesn't matter

I don't think anything changes if you're town here, I still don't particularly want to be in ELO

[Roden]

Uh huh

Anyway could you answer the question

Was your question am I onto you? I think the answer was yes

Why are you asking who to push and not just scum hunting

[Roden]

Roden about to come in and hammer me

I'm not. I'm not shading you with my questions, I'm genuinely trying to understand what you're doing. Idk if you haven't been keeping up with my posts but I've been heavily suspecting Datisi for a few days now, I have way more reason to vote him than you. The only reason I haven't is because I want to be confident with my vote.

Some of the things you've said has given me pause, but at the same time idk what you're doing to further your wincon here if you're scum. It's the same issue I had with Dwlee and why I thought they were probably just town at first.

[Roden]

I actually think this has been one of my towniest games - I've voted both Mafia, I've challenged multiple times putting my life at risk, I've had controversial opinions, I've been *somewhat* active

Literally don't know what you want from me anymore, unless the meta has gone back to townreading massive wall cases and lists

My other theory is that people on the council tend to trust people on the council, so if you're trusted to be on the council in the first place it just spirals from there and everything gets really stagnant

Either way it's a bummer

This is also just something I agree with, like as a mood. I keep going through bouts of losing interest in this game because it's been pretty clear the default game state wasn't going away i.e. everyone not in power is PoE'd and we're all just counting down the days until we get guillotine'd. From my perspective it feels like we're just fodder until it gets to the point that the council can play in ELO by themselves. It's just not fun, but no one in the PoE wants to do anything about it because of the "anyone but me" mentality.

[Roden]

Roden about to come in and hammer me

I'm not. I'm not shading you with my questions, I'm genuinely trying to understand what you're doing. Idk if you haven't been keeping up with my posts but I've been heavily suspecting Datisi for a few days now, I have way more reason to vote him than you. The only reason I haven't is because I want to be confident with my vote.

Some of the things you've said has given me pause, but at the same time idk what you're doing to further your wincon here if you're scum. It's the same issue I had with Dwlee and why I thought they were probably just town at first.

Can you not see town motivation behind trying to either confirm 3 players or get a mafia out? Neither the Cop nor their 3 green checks have been killed, I don't know if any of them have been targeted. This is suspect. I can't claim to strongly scumread Datisi, I think they're possibly scum by play after their Lukewarm interactions but the strongest argument is the mechanical one.

I made this exact argument a few hours ago. So yes.

[Roden]

still zero scum case on datisi.
Is this such a big ask for someone to provide me a look at datisi posts and tell me the scum motivation going on that i haven't seen.
I want someone to tell me this isn't just a paranoia/mechanic push.

No one is willing to do it. Its just 'this is optimal play'. That aint cutting it for me right now. Can someone scum case datisi

I have been, the majority of it happened on D3.

[Roden]

I actually think this has been one of my towniest games - I've voted both Mafia, I've challenged multiple times putting my life at risk, I've had controversial opinions, I've been *somewhat* active

Literally don't know what you want from me anymore, unless the meta has gone back to townreading massive wall cases and lists

My other theory is that people on the council tend to trust people on the council, so if you're trusted to be on the council in the first place it just spirals from there and everything gets really stagnant

Either way it's a bummer

This is also just something I agree with, like as a mood. I keep going through bouts of losing interest in this game because it's been pretty clear the default game state wasn't going away i.e. everyone not in power is PoE'd and we're all just counting down the days until we get guillotine'd. From my perspective it feels like we're just fodder until it gets to the point that the council can play in ELO by themselves. It's just not fun, but no one in the PoE wants to do anything about it because of the "anyone but me" mentality.

I think it's been a new development in this day phase really, with mastina's list mainly what I'm thinking of. Have you seen it before then?

Yeah, I have. It's why my engagement is way up today.

Roden, today would be the day to strike back then.

Datisi is the correct play today, what would it take for you to join me on this wagon?

I'm just waiting at this point for anyone who's against a Datisi elim to town case him and explain why him, the green checks, and the Doctor aren't dead.

I also really need someone to explain to me like I'm 5 how/why four scum supported Shea as king but then somehow didn't get onto the council in a town!Datisi world.

[Roden]

I also really need someone to explain to me like I'm 5 how/why four scum supported Shea as king but then somehow didn't get onto the council in a town!Datisi world.

a somewhat minor point on this I feel compelled to share for people like FB, fireisred, yourself:

Others who have access to the Supporters PT can attest that my main campaign in the supporters PT when Shea was deciding on council picks was Junko off, VPB on. I obviously said I'd support myself on council as a throwaway comment but I was clear that the main person who I wanted on who wasn't being considered was VPB.

so if people are thinking I may have been scum in this zone of "vote Shea for King to pocket, then try to get on council but failed to do so", there is pretty clear evidence in that PT that I was pushing for another flipped townie to be on the council instead of myself, which should poke a hole in that argument/idea. and if my partners are some assortment of furtive/UNOwen/Enchant/Drapion, I didn't lobby for any of them on the council significantly at all - think I had a grand total of one post where I said UNOwen was fine as a council pick when Shea gave an argument for it.

This context is welcome, but yeah I wasn't building up to a scum case on you. I don't think you're scum at this point, because whether Datisi is scum or town I think you're better than setting yourself up to lose.

[Roden]

okay yeah i've read up.

firebringer is v town. guiltylion probably scum, i think he got talked into the plan way too easily. also this firebringer really feels like HDP firebringer and i am not loving the fact that guiltylion can't see that. oh hey, that was my thought of him and scumreading andante's slot. wack. anyway 5094 is a post to read.

feeling like furtiveglace/guiltylion/???. the ??? is someone in drapion/unowen, maaaaaybe enchant if this is one of his games where he actually put in a nanomole of effort as scum, i've seen that happen once. shea is a theoretical possibility i guess, but i'm not feeling it.

are there any obvious reasons i'm forgetting that furtive/guilty cannot be a team? don't think so.

i could iso those latter 3 with the first 2 to see if i can narrow it down further via The Associates, but. it's 1:41am and i trust that stuff will become obvious as the game goes on.

am i overlooking fireisredsir... throw them into the paranoia pile too, ig. instinct is telling me they're town tho and i don't have good reasons to change it right now. don't deadsheep me on that tho, i'm historically horrible at reading them.

Where am I

You hard scum read me Day 3 and only backed off because Firered told you to

I feel like if you're paranoid about Firered then I should come up in some way, like maybe we're buddies and he tried to save me, or he's scum and tried to WK me since he recently did that in Cafe

So why is there zero thoughts there

[Roden]

Datisi you realize your post can only be seen as distancing right

[Roden]

"You're insane" and "you're spouting nonsense" is just such an unnecessary bit of vitriol

It also just avoids the question

[Roden]

Roden, today would be the day to strike back then.

Datisi is the correct play today, what would it take for you to join me on this wagon?

I'm just waiting at this point for anyone who's against a Datisi elim to town case him and explain why him, the green checks, and the Doctor aren't dead.

I also really need someone to explain to me like I'm 5 how/why four scum supported Shea as king but then somehow didn't get onto the council in a town!Datisi world.

Maybe explain what about this is nonsense I guess

[Roden]

Please don't put anyone at E-1 until we're ready for the day to end.

[Roden]

VOTE: Mastina

[Roden]

GG! Thanks for modding Pooky, flavor and narrative was really fun.

Also huge props to LLD and both Fires. The solving was strong, and they did a great job keeping everyone on track and shutting down mis-elim options.