Cosmos Mafia (Postgame)

[mastina]

Starting tomorrow let's start killing RR voters.

I quite like this as the third in RR/unwnd for this, especially since it feels like it was meant for a scum PT--we're

already

killing an RR voter today. (Me.)

So if we're killing RR voters already, where's the 'start' involved? It's already happening.

Scum nightkills, on the other hand...

(The RR voters would be a threat to RR on a scumteam so if Scarfmanship is scum with RR as I suspect...)

[mastina]

VOTE: Scarfmanship

VOTE: Scarf

VOTE: Scarfmanship

Yume:

Not sure where you're voting from memory, but if you join me here and these two are also there, we can at least go down swinging. It might not save me but it will make a statement for when I flip town. And force scum to react. Again.

[mastina]

It’s more there’s a lot of

posting

but very little pushing

This applies to MY wagon, too, MathBlade.

You're pushing.
professotic is pushing.

T-Bone is pushing.

Try telling me the rest of the voters on me have been pushing me.

They really, really haven't.

Because the wagon on me is very, very lazy. I've said "lazy" this whole time, but maybe you would understand me saying lazy in my posts better if I worded it every time as "lot of posting, but very little pushing". Because that's true of them.

I also feel like I should state:
Usually, you think of pushes as on scum.

But there

are

pushes beyond pushing players as scum--a strong strong strong defense of a player being town is still a push, it's pushing them as being town.

There are players strongly pushing me as town.

There's not players strongly pushing other wagoned slots as town.

There are precisely three players pushing me as scum.

The rest are not.

I have made several pushes. You might disagree with them and that is justified since at least two I now believe were on town (you, professotic), but you can't disagree with me having made pushes.
I've pushed.
My defenders have pushed me as town (albeit not pushing players as scum).
You, T-Bone, and professotic have pushed me as scum.

But literally every other player in the game has not pushed players as town OR scum--and it's in those zero-pushers, those lazy posters, that you'll find the scum.

And that list?

That's {MMR, furtiveglance, Enchant, Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}.

Obviously, that list is too large considering the number of scum in the game.
But that list should contain

all

the scum in the game. Imo, not most; ALL. (I understand if you think it's only most, tho, but you should agree that it's most.)

And from that list of nine, you need only get the three towniest players to have a list of scum form. It's my belief that the towniest of the lazy players are MMR/furvie/Enchant. Which by default, leaves the scum as Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, and Frozen Angel.

[mastina]

Mastina: I have evidence that Radical Rat lying!
Mastina: I don't gonna tell you it though.
Mastina: *Voting Scarfs*

I mean, I'll go back to Radical Rat if after people hear my claim they agree that Radical Rat's lack of having the restrictions I have = RR scum. But if there's still resistance after I claim, then applying pressure elsewhere means more scum under threat.

[mastina]

??? (could be PoE scum, but hard to lock down for sure)
{Maid Cafe}

{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship}

REASONABLE CHANCE OF SCUM:
{Bunnyonce}

SCUM:
{Radja/unwnd}

{Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}

This is her latest readwall. Which to me tips her had she isn’t looking for 6 like she originally claimed. [/quote]MathBlade for someone whose name literally has math in it you apparently suck at doing it.

Maid Cafe (1) + Scarfmanship (1) + Bunnyonce (1) + unwnd (1) + RR, FA (2), that's 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 6.

Now, granted.

When I claim you'll want to eliminate me because my claim has a phrase which actually implies conversion mechanics--which you will take to be a logical inconsistency in my play, which you will take to be a disconnect between what my role says and what my posts said. (Granted, scumastina doesn't lie*, so like. I can't both scumslip being 6 yet have a role imply 4 with the claim being true. It can only be one of the two at most.)

Is one of the reasons why I originally wasn't going to bother with a claim; I knew it'd be taken as an inconsistency because my role actually implies conversion mechanics are in place.

But to clarify: there isn't actually any inconsistency or disconnect. My role implies 4, but it is an

implication

, not a

confirmation

. Having a red herring is exactly what I believe MegAzumarill's modding style to be, so implications can be red herrings.

Beyond that, I never said it was six scum. I said "approximately", because of the above--it wasn't confirmed to be 4, so it could be 6. And it being "could be 6" meant that it was better to assume 6, because it wasn't confirmed to be 4. I basically assumed that my role wasn't being truthful in its implication of 4, and assumed approximately 6.

The only reason I took to the 6 theory was the push on me for having presented it in the first place--I genuinely believe that both scumteams believe me to be a member of their opposite, and they think I TMI'd there being 6 scum, when they were actually TMI'ing by believing I TMI'd. But it has

always

been an assumption.

Neither 4, nor 6, are definitive. I personally believe that thanks to the gamestate and the way the game has played out, the scumteams have revealed that it is actually 6. But that is an assumption on my part. The truth is I don't actually know.

So there could in fact be less than six.

I don't actually know.

I

suspect

six, I don't KNOW there's six.

And I have exactly six reads for those six, and an idea for what teams they'd be on.

(*listmods this isn't actually true, I'm short on time so pls don't ban me for this shorthand)

[mastina]

??? (could be PoE scum, but hard to lock down for sure)
{Maid Cafe}

{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship}

REASONABLE CHANCE OF SCUM:
{Bunnyonce}

SCUM:
{Radja/unwnd}

{Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}

This is her latest readwall. Which to me tips her had she isn’t looking for 6 like she originally claimed.

MathBlade for someone whose name literally has math in it you apparently suck at doing it.

Maid Cafe (1) + Scarfmanship (1) + Bunnyonce (1) + unwnd (1) + RR, FA (2), that's 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 6.

Now, granted.

When I claim you'll want to eliminate me because my claim has a phrase which actually implies conversion mechanics--which you will take to be a logical inconsistency in my play, which you will take to be a disconnect between what my role says and what my posts said. (Granted, scumastina doesn't lie*, so like. I can't both scumslip being 6 yet have a role imply 4 with the claim being true. It can only be one of the two at most.)

Is one of the reasons why I originally wasn't going to bother with a claim; I knew it'd be taken as an inconsistency because my role actually implies conversion mechanics are in place.

But to clarify: there isn't actually any inconsistency or disconnect. My role implies 4, but it is an

implication

, not a

confirmation

. Having a red herring is exactly what I believe MegAzumarill's modding style to be, so implications can be red herrings.

Beyond that, I never said it was six scum. I said "approximately", because of the above--it wasn't confirmed to be 4, so it could be 6. And it being "could be 6" meant that it was better to assume 6, because it wasn't confirmed to be 4. I basically assumed that my role wasn't being truthful in its implication of 4, and assumed approximately 6.

The only reason I took to the 6 theory was the push on me for having presented it in the first place--I genuinely believe that both scumteams believe me to be a member of their opposite, and they think I TMI'd there being 6 scum, when they were actually TMI'ing by believing I TMI'd. But it has

always

been an assumption.

Neither 4, nor 6, are definitive. I personally believe that thanks to the gamestate and the way the game has played out, the scumteams have revealed that it is actually 6. But that is an assumption on my part. The truth is I don't actually know.

So there could in fact be less than six.

I don't actually know.

I

suspect

six, I don't KNOW there's six.

And I have exactly six reads for those six, and an idea for what teams they'd be on.

(*listmods this isn't actually true, I'm short on time so pls don't ban me for this shorthand)

Oops broke a tag, this is hotfix'd version.

[mastina]

Sell me on scarf scum. Is it just a tone thing or what?

Oh yeah it's definitely at least five scum in the game, with RR + unwnd + Scarfmanship as a team. (Six if the teams are symmetrical in size.)

[mastina]

I don't believe Yume as like a counter example.

I know you currently believe Yume is town from having your world shaken, but I need to reiterate that Yume is never scum here because her viewpoints are too genuine to come from scum.

Her viewpoints are hard to parse since her way of speaking is often hard to understand.

Her viewpoints are ridiculously stubborn in a way that can be frustrating to deal with, confusing, and baffling.

But her viewpoints are sincere, her perspective bleeds through in her posts, and you can see she is clearly giving real thoughts at every turn.

This is all without a lick of using meta, which you will discard as lolmeta.

But just know that every player who knows Yume's meta has her as town because her meta is night/day and this is the day.

[mastina]

Your scumpicks tell nothing to me, even when I am one of them

Funny, YOUR scumpicks tell nothing to me, especially when I am one of them.

(Okay they tell me you're scum but you know what I mean.)

[mastina]

I don't like trying to line up who I think mastina's partners are (read: I am still very enthused about her death and scumflip),

Funny, it's almost like the reason people haven't done this (barring callouts of Yume/PPF/DDS as buddies), is because I'm not actually scum with anyone and they know it, and that if they did the work it would show.

[mastina]

last game i modded mastina died d1 and yume basically kicked rocks around for a while being upset over it

(I had commentary to give for this but I'm losing steam here and I think that it's not something worth really going into, not that important.)

Almost done btw, so gonna requote the most important things and then claim after that.

[mastina]

It's a week old so I guess I better do 1.1 patch actually.

Oh I was originally planning to do snark in response to this where T-Bone previously stated he had townreads on my wagon but then quote this post (which is chronologically later) and point out the

lack

of townreads in it, but since it was snark and not really leading anywhere, not really worth it when I'm this short on time. (I'm already past my bedtime so I gotta go fast.)

I'm skipping a lot, including engaging more unwnd posts, probably more MB talks that could be productive, etc., but I'm kinda fading fast so like, I need to rush. Make sure there's not anything vital but I think I'm ready for rehash into claim time. On that note:

But if Mastina is not scum with X team then Mastina is really really unlucky in some things she did/said
The amount of sheer coincidence would be ridiculous

You have noooooooooooo idea.

(I do tho. From the moment people started pushing the 6-scum thing of me, I have known about the sheer coincidences and how ridiculous they are. Because while I didn't remember my full role PM and remembered it half-wrong, the one part I remembered is a part that implies recruitment mechanics and recruitment mechanics imply less than 6. As I've said since, I believe there's 6 and that the bit in my role PM is a red herring, butstill. It is "sheer coincidence that is ridiculous" as you'd say. Which again, is why I didn't want to claim originally, but after rereading my role PM I need to.)

[mastina]

Rehash Part One:

The laziness of "mastina elimination best for gamestate

Titus would a 'i told you so' be enough of a reward if mastina was just limmed?

I have a post on this, lemme pull it up.

There's a part of me that believes she's doing it out of spite to get one over on those of us with an incorrect read.

I mean--explicitly so, yes! I've been QUITE clear about my stance on this:

If you can't tell that I am town from what I have posted so far in the game, you don't deserve to. Ever. (Hope that wording's okay.) If you think you have any form of tell on me that comes to the conclusion I am scum--I know I'm town so no fucking duh, I am gonna be smug when you see the townflip.

I've gone through enough shit in one week that I, well and truly, don't give a damn.

There are things that I am obligated to do--share my thoughts on who I think is scum, share my thoughts on who I think is town.
Some stronger than others.

But putting any work into saving myself? Not among the things I'm obligated to do.

Every single vote on me has bullshit reasoning. Literally every single one of them. There are NO valid reasons to vote me, here.

Even the "just end the day" logic, even the "this will continue tomorrow if not resolved today" logic, even the posts about it being content revolving around me making a toxic mindset

?

Bullshit logic.

But while the reasoning used to vote me is absolute shit--literally none of it is worth responding to.
If I have other reasons to engage with a post with bullshit reasoning, I will still engage with the post.

But by default, just not worth the effort. You can't see I'm town, you don't deserve to. You claim you read me as scum, you have no fucking clue what you were talking about. I don't really care to prove it, because the flip does that for me. So, yes. Not bothering to try. And yes, out of spite.

My spite won't stop me from sharing reads.
But I've no interest in defending myself, not in of itself at least.

Your logic is exactly the highlighted logic and it is bullshit.

The town is fully capable of changing the gamestate on their own. Fights with me be damned. I'm a facilitator for activity, sure, and have caused some bitter fights this game, yes. Those are not the death-spirals those who want to push mastina votes are pretending they are. Those are not things that kill the gamestate and even if they did--the conclusion from them is not to remove me. That is all lazy reasoning and explicitly, a breeding room for scum to hide because "voting mastina for the health of the game thread" is not stating an alignment read on me. It is not trying to resolve me. It is not trying to sort me.

It is lazy and it is either bullshit (from the town who should fucking know better) or scum (from those who see the convenience in the narrative).

The actual fact of the matter is that with the extra time granted by the frozen deadline and the benefit of said time and distance, there was a

surge

of productivity in the game.

professotic went from not wagoned, to top wagoned, to not wagoned again, in that time, from people not having them on their radar, putting them on the radar, and then later concluding (mostly at my behest) that they are not actually scum.

And there is a fairly young Radical Rat wagon there, less than 48 hours old, that has had a chance to form/develop--which these voices going back to the "mastina and the toxic gamestate" viewpoint are

actively shutting down

.

That's lazy from town and scum-motivated from scum.

Yes, there was fatigue.
Yes, there was a time where people ran out of time/energy.

But then, we took the time to step back and distance ourselves--and there was a surge of reinvigorated energy.

The narrative of mastina-is-hurting-the-town was, probably (if I am being at my most self-critical), true--

at a time

.
There WAS a time during this day phase where it was true.

It's not anymore, and pretending it is is, explicitly: not updating arguments to reflect the new gamestate.

That's not inherently scum, because lazy town be lazy.
But it is something that scum do because it's convenient and easy to hide behind.

The town is fully capable of changing the gamestate on their own. Fights with me be damned. Those are not the death-spirals those who want to push mastina votes are pretending they are.

That is all lazy reasoning and explicitly, a breeding room for scum to hide because "voting mastina for the health of the game thread" is not stating an alignment read on me. It is not trying to resolve me. It is not trying to sort me.

The actual fact of the matter is that with the extra time granted by the frozen deadline and the benefit of said time and distance, there was a

surge

of productivity in the game.

There is a fairly young Radical Rat wagon there, less than 48 hours old, that has had a chance to form/develop--which these voices going back to the "mastina and the toxic gamestate" viewpoint are

actively shutting down

.

The narrative of mastina-is-hurting-the-town was, probably (if I am being at my most self-critical), true--

at a time

.

It's not anymore, and pretending it is is, explicitly: not updating arguments to reflect the new gamestate.

These parts bear particular reiterating.

The gamestate did NOT stall.
The conclusions did NOT become inevitable.
The game did NOT circle back into the same.
The situation HAS changed, and evolved.

The narrative that the game is still the same as it was a week or two ago is, explicitly, not reflective of reality.

I wanted to explain this better but it's ultimately less important in of itself.

I want to be clear though that the town ALWAYS has a choice.
The town ALWAYS can choose.
The town ALWAYS has the power to set their own fate.
We are NEVER locked into a mastina elimination.
We are NEVER locked into a mastina-always-pushed.
We are NEVER guaranteed a better gamestate with my elimination.
We are NEVER forced to eliminate me.
We are NEVER in a place where it's impossible to move on with the game with me alive.

It is ALWAYS possible to do anything in the day phase, ESPECIALLY with the eternally frozen timeline.

To not do so IS a choice. And an incredibly lazy one, at that.

The laziness of the wagon on me is inexcusable from any town on it outside of MathBlade/T-Bone/professotic. They're not lazy.
And the logic is also easy for scum to use.

Which brings me to the next part.

[mastina]

Rehash Part Two:

What the laziness implies

It’s more there’s a lot of

posting

but very little pushing

This applies to MY wagon, too, MathBlade.

You're pushing.
professotic is pushing.

T-Bone is pushing.

Try telling me the rest of the voters on me have been pushing me.

They really, really haven't.

Because the wagon on me is very, very lazy. I've said "lazy" this whole time, but maybe you would understand me saying lazy in my posts better if I worded it every time as "lot of posting, but very little pushing". Because that's true of them.

I also feel like I should state:
Usually, you think of pushes as on scum.

But there

are

pushes beyond pushing players as scum--a strong strong strong defense of a player being town is still a push, it's pushing them as being town.

There are players strongly pushing me as town.

There's not players strongly pushing other wagoned slots as town.

There are precisely three players pushing me as scum.

The rest are not.

I have made several pushes. You might disagree with them and that is justified since at least two I now believe were on town (you, professotic), but you can't disagree with me having made pushes.
I've pushed.
My defenders have pushed me as town (albeit not pushing players as scum).
You, T-Bone, and professotic have pushed me as scum.

But literally every other player in the game has not pushed players as town OR scum--and it's in those zero-pushers, those lazy posters, that you'll find the scum.

And that list?

That's {MMR, furtiveglance, Enchant, Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}.

Obviously, that list is too large considering the number of scum in the game.
But that list should contain

all

the scum in the game. Imo, not most; ALL. (I understand if you think it's only most, tho, but you should agree that it's most.)

And from that list of nine, you need only get the three towniest players to have a list of scum form. It's my belief that the towniest of the lazy players are MMR/furvie/Enchant. Which by default, leaves the scum as Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, and Frozen Angel.

And finally,

Rehash Part Three:

Reads

My reads right now have fairly good base:

LOCKTOWN:
{Past Present Future, Save The Dragons, Yume, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow (comfortable moving them up here)} (most locktown of locktown)
TOWN:
{MathBlade}

VIBED TOWN:
{MMR, T-Bone}

LEAN TOWN:
{furtiveglance, Enchant, professotic (may be up there with MB, not quite sure)}


??? (could be PoE scum, but hard to lock down for sure)
{Maid Cafe}

{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship}

REASONABLE CHANCE OF SCUM:
{Bunnyonce}

SCUM:
{Radja/unwnd}

{Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}

This Rat wagon is soooo bad.

I'm not gonna claim that it's scum free, because obviously, it's not.

But it's still a town-driven wagon.

Radical Rat(8) Mastina, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, Yume, furtiveglance, Past Present Future, Bunnyonce, Ydrasse, Scarfmanship [E-1!]

I'm town.

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is town. Period. This is Klick as town.

Yume is town. Period. This is unnegotiable. She is locktown of locktown, never scum here ever.

Past Present Future is town. Period. This is all three being town. Never scum ever, locktown of locktown.

Ydrasse is town. Save the Dragons was in his town meta and Ydrasse has continued to show herself to be town since replacing in.

So where are the sum?

The only

options

(not guarantees, just OPTIONS) are {furtiveglance, Bunnyonce, Scarfmanship}.

That's a MAXIMUM of three scum,

if

you believe that all three are scum.

For every name you see as town in those three, the number of possible scum on the wagon falls.

Suffice to say: no, not scumdriven. It's at least 5/8 town.

In contrast:

Mastina (7) T-Bone, Radical Rat, Maid Cafe, professotic, Mathblade, unwnd, Enchant

I believe T-Bone, professotic, and MathBlade to be town in here.

But only those 3.

There's four possible scum on the mastina wagon.
{Radical Rat, Maid Cafe, unwnd, Enchant}.

Enchant's hop-on looks like scum saving a scumbuddy.
unwnd's replace-in radiates scum.
And Maid Cafe has been looking more and more scum.

Are all four scum?

Not unless I'm a god gamer scumhunter. (I am not a god gamer scumhunter.)

But are all four town?

Fuck no! There's guaranteed scum in there.

I would say 2-3 of RR's scumteam on mastina wagon (actually this is mandatory--even if FA is a scumbuddy, then unless MMR is the third or RR had a bussing scumbuddy, there is a minimum of two RR-scumteam on the wagon);
~0-2 of opposite scumteam on the RR wagon.

(FA scum off the wagon so I don't think it's all scum on both.)

If I had to guess,
{Radical Rat, Enchant, unwnd} (so yes all 3 on me) as one scumteam;
{Frozen Angel, Bunnyonce, Scarfmanship} as the other.

(Okay so it's Radical Rat + 2/3 of {Enchant, unwnd, Maid Cafe} for one scumteam, actually. I just think Enchant scumtold, and that unwnd fits better as an RR scumbuddy.

It's Frozen Angel + 2/3 of {Bunnyonce, Scarfmanship, remainder-from-the-above} for the other. Thinking about it more, I somewhat doubt that Bunnyonce and Scarfmanship are scum together so I think my revised second scumteam is Frozen Angel + Maid Cafe + 1/2 of {Bunnyonce, Scarfmanship}.)

These are

slightly

out of date, but between the three you get a good base, so to update them:

LOCKTOWN:
{Past Present Future, Save The Dragons, Yume, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow (comfortable moving them up here), MathBlade} (most locktown of locktown)
TOWN:
{professotic, T-Bone}

VIBED TOWN:
{MMR}

LEAN TOWN:
{furtiveglance} (both tiers of lean town apt, just furtive's more town than Enchant)

{Enchant} (both tiers of lean town apt, just Enchant has a higher scum equity imo)



PoE scum? (hard to lock down for sure)
{Maid Cafe}

REASONABLE CHANCE OF SCUM:
{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce}

SCUM:
{Radja/unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}

The locktown here, I don't think I'm ever wrong on. I've explained all but MathBlade up there extensively but MathBlade being town I think has become clear enough that I don't need to.
T-Bone, basically he's the only player in this game to have given incredibly nuanced thoughts on me with a hard consistent push on me in a way insanely town and his thought process on every player he talks about feels town, everything he does looks town.

professotic, the Professor half in particular looks town, their hydra dissonance looks town, and I can

see

the town from tictac.

I don't think I'm wrong on any of the above.

{MMR, furtiveglance, Enchant} all

could

be scum, but MMR feels town from all three heads and their interactions. I wouldn't touch them until everyone below on my list is flipped.

{furtiveglance} I've explained, basically furtive isn't the same furtive as Datisi's Cafe. It's a weak townread, could be wrong, but his thoughts look town enough for now.
Enchant is a wavering read but his current look is a good one.

Maid Cafe is being replaced but they are where Radja was--not really looking town in any way, when I have a lot of townreads that are solid.

Scarfmanship and Bunnyonce both look like scum.

unwnd is scum with Radical Rat.

Frozen Angel is in her scum meta.

I've explained all the scumreads except for Maid Cafe fairly extensively (okay maybe I should do more on Scarfmanship/Bunnyonce? But I don't think I really need to, scumreads on them aren't exactly hot takes, so like--after I'm gone y'all probably lim them anyway and thus, not as important), so from there we get pairings.

{unwnd, Radical Rat} needs a third.
My earlier notes say not-FA but yes-Bunnyonce.

My earlier notes say Maid Cafe is not partnered with Radical Rat, so not them.

I realize that both Bunnyonce and Scarfmanship were part of the L-1 wagon on RR.
So I realize that at least one thing I would normally assume is wrong.
A townread wrong;
Earlier interactions wrong;
Voting not clearing them from being partnered.

One of those three has to be true, because there's no scumteam possible for all of them. (Well, I

guess

teams of two? So make that four assumptions.)

So either there's a townread wrong (for instance, Enchant scum, but I currently lean against it),
Or the early interactions were wrong (one of FA/Maid Cafe scum with RR/unwnd),
Or the voting of RR was not clearing.

I lean the third. It could be Bunnyonce (50-50 there on yeah-def-partners and wait-definitely-not), but actually, scarfmanship fits quite well. The vote was reasonless, and Scarfmanship's RR stance throughout iso looks highly partnery.

So my current scumteam guesses would be,
{Radical Rat, unwnd, Scarfmanship}
{Frozen Angel, Maid Cafe, Bunnyonce}

I admit I've not done as much research as I'd like but I'm trying to get to claiming so I'll have to accept this as a rush job.
It's reads + teams, which is 90% where I want to be. (I do have a few extra thoughts to give tho.)

I probably should add more, rehashing the town/scum but I think you get the idea.

Next post is gonna be my claim.

[mastina]

Alright so NEXT post is claim, I owe this an immediate response.

I do hate to extend this further, it's past my bedtime as well, but why do I get lumped in with the lazy group when I DO have reasons that I HAVE articulated, and not one of them has ever been about ending the day/improving game state/whatever?

Both the reasons used being comparatively shit and the strength for which you posted.

You have not pushed.

You've stated reasons.

You've not pushed.

[mastina]

The Claim:

Don't expect anything groundbreaking. I've repeatedly reiterated that my claim won't save me. It's important information to have, but it isn't something that makes me any more town and from a surface level can even look more scum.

I'm a Town Limited Astrologer.

During Noons (so, effectively, in normal games, even-night), I check for the attunement of my target.

The attunements in the game are Sun and Moon.

All Solar Cult Members have a Sun attunement;
All Lunar Cult Members have a Moon attunement.

But attunements aren't just for scum.

Some town are sun attuned, some town are moon attuned, and this is not randomly done. (It's a pregame thing apparently.)

Given that, I genuinely don't know the strength of my role. When I confirmed I said "so something between gunsmith and rolecop in strength, I guess", which is about my estimation. It's hard to say, I don't think anyone can really know until we see the whole setup.


My role PM specifies I'm limited in who I can target. (This is the wording I'd expect RR to have.)

I can't target the same player twice (not 'twice in a row', twice at all--once is it). (This part is obviously specific to me.)

But, some things can prevent me from targeting a player. (This is the wording I'd expect RR to have.)

I'll be informed in the event of that. (This is passable as specific to me, given I am an investigative.)


Radical Rat's claim lacking the "limited in who you can target" and "some things can prevent you from targeting" sections, is why I think their claim is suspect.

I'm afraid that's it. I warned you it wasn't groundbreaking, but I've gotten all my thoughts out and shared my info and why I think it implicates RR so I'm done now.

[mastina]

(I do have 'crumbs but I am going to bed, if it's THAT important and you want it and I'm alive tomorrow I can fetch them, and explain why I thought MathBlade's crumbs were breadcrumbing my role.)

[mastina]

IIIII should be in bed,
I should be in bed
Why am I postingggg
It's an hour past time,
I should be in beddd
But I wanna do this nowwwww.

Yes, one of your crumbs was when you said you would reveal people's true colors, right?

Yup!

VOTE: Bunnyonce
(this is mostly a Scarfmanship unvote)

Scarfmanship isn't locktowned for the post-claim-reveal posting but definitely is less of a priority for me imo. Not sure what that means for reads, need to take a look at things tomorrow with all the new info.

I agree with Scarf tho that T-Bone and Enchant both hard town.

[mastina]

(I do have 'crumbs but I am going to bed, if it's THAT important and you want it and I'm alive tomorrow I can fetch them, and explain why I thought MathBlade's crumbs were breadcrumbing my role.)

I would like them but it’s not as urgent. More so that hopefully this doesn’t happen again.
What would happen if you check the attunement of a player and they weren’t Sun or Moon?
Say Dawn or Dusk?
Is every player explicitly Sun or Moon?

I THINK everyone's sun or moon (my misremember of my role PM was thinking that I was a Light/Sun attuned person), but I haven't checked.

Too tired to even write a good question, but I'll ask tomorrow and get an answer pronto then.

Neopolitan+Strange Rolecop

This is probably a closer descriptor. (I knew there was a modifier that's similar to Indecisive but whole game rather than one night, just couldn't remember it and it's not in the role PM itself.) Between this and 2860 at least.

You have no idea just how gamebreaking that is Mastina.

Apparently not, since I thought my role wasn't anything amazing. (Granted I forgot half of it and misremembered part of it, so.)
I guess I was

in a sense

not off the mark then when I picked up on you having something similar to me, I just was wildly off about the specifics.
(But, need sleep, we can coordinate and talk it out better tomorrow.)

[mastina]

Umm mastina, how do you have a read on a head that has never posted? Auro has said nothing.

Nancy shared Auro thoughts at a point.

[mastina]

You mentioned you think your role implies recruitment exists. I don't see what implies recruitment in any of that, so where is that coming from?

The can't-target-same-player-twice part. As an investigative that gets information about something that people expect to be immutable (unchangeable), why would I be unable to check someone twice?

Thus, implication that it's to prevent me from seeing a change in attunement, implying recruitment but not being explicit.

[mastina]

Alright, so I'm working, meaning that I can't do everything, but I can manage a readslist right now. (Elaboration if you want it will have to wait.)

DOUBLE-LOCKTOWN (role+play):
{MathBlade, Yume, T-Bone, Enchant}
LOCKTOWN (play):
{Save the Dragons/Ydrasse, Past Present Future, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, professotic} (professotic probably gets bumped up if full claiming, but hasn't yet and obviously shouldn't, but I can't list them above without knowing more info about their role)

TOWN:
{Scarfmanship*} (interactions around my claim + I believe the read of having seen my 'crumbs--not enough to locktown, but enough to keep out of PoE)

Including me, that's 10/17 as town.

Which leaves seven names for 4-6 scum, among the remainder:

TOWNLEAN:
{MMR} (I loosely think that all 3 heads are in their respective town metas and that their Hydra talk has been town, but not strongly enough to keep them altogether outside of the PoE. I'd prefer to not vote them, but if I absolutely had to, I'd compromise there)

AMBIVALENT:
{furtiveglance} (it still doesn't look like his play from Datisi's Cafe, but his play doesn’t actually look town and has many objectively scummy stances)

SCUMLEAN:
{Maid Cafe}

SCUMREAD:
{Bunnyonce}
{Frozen Angel, unwnd, Radical Rat}

[mastina]

As the sun begins to set, a ray of sunlight catches onto Mathblade and surrounds him. Likewise, as the moon rises the moonlight surrounds Dingle Dangle Scarecrow. They are surrounded by radiant and ethereal light.

Mathblade is blessed by the solar god Helius. He cannot be aligned with the Lunar Cult. If he was eliminated during this phase, the Solar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Solar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is blessed by the lunar goddess Luna. They cannot be aligned with the Solar Cult. If they were eliminated during this phase, the Lunar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Lunar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

So guess what I got told the moment after this was posted?

I can't target either MathBlade or Dingle Dangle Scarecrow. (And yes, I got clarification--for the entirety of the game.)

So, I can't conftown them, but given the players in question, they were both town anyway.

[mastina]

Dawn time, I'm probably right about everything this game because I was right about Bunnyonce. And probably Professotic.

The funny thing about that is it's easier to be right about things when you have more information than a town player should.

VOTE: furtiveglance.

[mastina]

I find it highly unlikely and even to a comical degree that scum were off that wagon
I'd guess two at max

Funny, I'd guess a maximum of two on the wagon.

Bunnyonce (9) Enchant, Mastina, Mathblade, scarfmanship, professotic, T-Bone, Past Present Future, Yume, Radical Rat

Yume is town.
T-Bone is town.
Past Present Future are town.
professotic were likely killed and probably town.
MathBlade is town.
I am town.

So who's that leave as possible scum?

{Enchant, Scarfmanship, Radical Rat}.

That's it--and for every name in those three you townread, you have extra names off the wagon who must be scum. In contrast, to look at the names

off

the wagon...

Mastina (2) Maid Cafe, unwnd
professotic (1) MMR,
Ydrasse (1) furtiveglance
Not Voting (4) Frozen Angel, Bunnyonce, Ydrasse, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow,

Funny, the only players here who are definitely town are Bunnyonce, Ydrasse, and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow.

Which leaves a scum pool of {Maid Cafe, unwnd, MMR, furtiveglance, Frozen Angel} there.
I like those odds for finding scum!

Would vote any of the people off the wagon.

[mastina]

And I know mastina wasn't targeted.

Well I couldn't act last night so I wouldn't be roleblocked, and I fullclaimed so I wouldn't be rolecopped--what negative role would scum target me with? They

could

nightkill me, but T-Bone was right about one thing; the scum don't really have any reason to kill me.

Tonight when I have an actual investigation action will be a better indicator.

[mastina]

You said previously that you target a player and learn their attunement. Who did you do last night?

Last night wasn't noon phase, my role is specifically noon phase.

In mechanical terms, if last night was D1/N1, today and tonight are D2/N2. I'm an even-night role, so I can't act on odd-nights. Last night was an odd-night, so I couldn't act; tonight will be an even-night, so I can.

[mastina]

Mastina had the reins D1 and was wrong, bunnyonce was one of her scumreads

I mean, I get it--I was wrong on Bunnyonce, after having initially being wrong on MathBlade and professotic (before eventually getting the read there wrong).

But the thing about PoEs is that one name flipping town in the PoE does not invalidate the PoE being used.

DOUBLE-LOCKTOWN (role+play):
{MathBlade, Yume, T-Bone, Enchant}
LOCKTOWN (play):
{Save the Dragons/Ydrasse, Past Present Future, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, professotic}

THE PoE POOL:
{Scarfmanship}
{MMR}

{furtiveglance} (it still doesn't look like his play from Datisi's Cafe, but his play doesn’t actually look town and has many objectively scummy stances)

SCUMLEAN:
{Maid Cafe}

SCUMREAD:
{Frozen Angel, unwnd, Radical Rat}

Where would the locktown pool be wrong?

It's not.

So where are the scum?

In the remainder.

The remainder being {Scarfmanship, MMR, furtiveglance, Maid Cafe, Frozen Angel, unwnd, Radical Rat}.

That remainder still has seven names in it--meaning one name in there is town at minimum.

Bunnyonce was in the pool and flipped town, but the pool was larger than the number of scum.

My PoE isn't wrong until there's fewer names within it than there are scum. (As in, say, five names with six scum alive--at that point the PoE would be by necessity wrong.)

So yes--I

should

be followed, at least

loosely

.

I don't particularly care which name in the pool we eliminate. I'll vote any of them. If someone else wants to campaign for a particular name in the pool, I'll follow their push.

But like--we should

never

be eliminating outside that PoE, because that PoE is not wrong.

If people just let her repeat D1 I am going to afk

Well that works for me since with you as scum that makes it much easier for the town to win.

[mastina]

We are in the bad timeline where you didn't eject mastina despite the fact she has the most stake in the game

I mean--which alignment has more stake in a game?

(It's town, scum don't give a fuck.)

I hold her accountable for her actions

Oh that's fair, but there's a difference between accountability and discrediting.

Yes, I was wrong on Bunnyonce, but Bunnyonce was one of the names in my PoE, when there were more names in the PoE than there were scum. We eliminated one of the town in the PoE, but that is not reason to throw out the entire PoE when the PoE is still solid.

Unless you want to try and argue my townreads are wrong, but like: they aren't. Just aren't.

I've been quite clear the entire game: my TOWNREADS are strong.
My scumreads are not.

Accountability is huge for a wrong townread--I deserve to be ignored for the entirety of the game if I get so much as a single one of

those

reads wrong.
Accountability is small for a wrong scumread--I have made it explicit the entire time that my scumreads are mostly PoE. I've

reasons

for scumreading the slots I am, but the biggest reason has always been "they're not town enough to be outside of the PoE".

Trying to pretend a wrong scumread equals huge accountability is disingenuous as fuck.

[mastina]

Would anyone like to tell me why Bunnyonce was able to be pushed through but conveniently mastina was able to survive

Quite simple.
Bunnyonce was a deadline wagon made at the last minute, when we needed to eliminate

someone

.
They were in the PoE and they could safely be eliminated.

I was a game-long wagon pushed largely by scum, when there are multiple slots who know I am town by both claim and play. I am also very very very vocal when town which makes it a damn hard job to eliminate me when I am town. Everyone involved in pushing me--

especially

those claiming to be familiar with me--are held accountable for being wrong about me.

I am someone who the scum tend to

think

they can push, and they get close, but then something comes up that they don't expect and they get caught unprepared for the flip of the switch where suddenly, the town find town and the scum are put on the ropes.

The PoE is a

threat

to scum.

If it wasn't, then professotic wouldn't be dead right now. professotic was outside of the PoE, so their death means the scum know that the PoE is a threat.

[mastina]

There wasn't a lot of serious discussion in my opinion on Mathblade being scum so I don't think those same associatives with the solar team exists, but if someone thinks otherwise I'm open to that data.

I mean technically speaking, I hard hard HARD pushed MathBlade as scum, and I act during the noon phase, so if I were scum it's pretty damn definitely Solar Cult. (Especially since my breadcrumbs were light-related because I thought my role was a Town Sun, which it isn't confirmed as.)

I never actually

voted

him and I hard-pivoted to him being town later in the game, but like, objectively speaking: there WAS a person pushing MathBlade as scum, it's just that I know for a fact she was town doing so.

[mastina]

Delusional

What makes it so?

My townreads here are not wrong.
My scumreads here explicitly can be.

These are things I have said the entire game.

That's not delusion; that's a lack thereof.

Every name I have locked as town has a damn good reason to be town. Those reads aren't delusional.

Every name I have in my PoE has reasons to be scum, but much much weaker, with the main being "they're not town enough to be out of the PoE".

Yes, there was a lot of shit to get to this point.
Yes, there is still a chance to hit town in the PoE because the PoE is larger than the number of scum in the game.

But neither of those invalidate the strength of the townreads. Given "innocent until proven guilty", the burden of showing why my townreads could be scum is on the accuser. But I like my reasons for townreading them more than any reasons for scumreading them.

Mostly.

I

can

be swayed--Scarfmanship went back into the PoE you may note, while being out of it at the end of yesterday. I was convinced Scarfmanship is less town than I gave credit for yesterday.

But good luck convincing me someone like MathBlade or Dingle Dangle Scarecrow or Yume or Past Present Future are scum, when all of them are just...town. (Enchant/T-Bone are also hard-sells because of both townslipping and individually being town by play. Townie as fuck in T-Bone's case.)

Those reads are that solid for

damn

good reason.
And those reasons aren't delusion.
They're experience combined with their play throughout the game.

[mastina]

When you look back at Bunny's death, it was mostly mastina's words being propeled for that elimination. Yet nobody is saying a thing nor being responsible for that type of enabling. Does that make sense?

If being shallow-level it would be. But if you want to present the narrative that I was hard-pushing Bunnyonce as some form of guaranteed scum that'd be disingenuous as fuck.

I thought they were scum, and they were in the PoE, and I was wrong, but my scumread on them was never 100% and I was quite vocal about this. I didn't say Bunnyonce was the unambiguously best chance of landing a scum elimination guaranteed--I voted Bunnyonce because I didn't have any particularly better ideas and we were short on time. We needed to eliminate

someone

in the PoE. It was at deadline, and eliminating someone in the PoE was better than eliminating someone out of the PoE.

Was it the best elimination possible, no, that'd have been scum--but if you want to pretend that Bunnyonce flipping town made the elimination a bad one, it ain't

me

who is the delusional one.
It wasn't a

great

elimination, but nobody voting there thought it was a great one.
It was an

okay

elimination, explicitly a last-minute compromise wagon we could all get around.

We didn't have any better options, not really.

[mastina]

Why don't you care that people were just parroting your logic? Why aren't you considering that someone could be (if you are town) manipulating you?

Because I know the players in question mostly and know they aren't scum. They aren't able to manipulate their metas to fool me specifically. Even if they tried (they wouldn't), they'd fail.

It doesn't matter who in my locktown did what--they are locktown for damn fucking good reasons.

If you want to argue that names outside my locktown parroted my logic tho: sure, they could be scum doing that.
But in a multiball game, I'm less concerned about that. (Wasn't that the whole reason people insisted on pushing me yesterday in spite of acknowledging that there were scum pushing for my elimination? "Oh I know there's going to be scum pushing mastina, but it's multiball, so I'm not as concerned about it." Well it ain't a one-way street, yaknow.)

The PoE has only one failure condition, and that's

if

the scum have a recruitment mechanic (turning previously town players to not town), but lacking that, the scum can only be inside the PoE. (On the note of the recruitment, the "cannot be solar/lunar" involved makes me think otherwise, especially the vanillaized cult part. That implies the cults have power roles, plural, which indicate a lack of recruitment and a size of three.)

[mastina]

If I am town here and in your shoes and I eject my scumread
I'm gonna

immediately

start wondering who is just trying to win me over with favors

Fortunately for the game, I am not you and I am not going to cave to needless paranoia.

II am also gonna go 'ok well fuck' but why do you not care about sequence of events

The sequence of events can show who is scum in the PoE.

The sequence of events doesn't damn any of the names outside of the PoE because all of them have reasons to be town stronger than any possible reason to be scum from the sequence of events.

So yes--I don't care about the sequence of events in regards to my townreads. My reasons for those townreads are not things that "well this sequence

could

indicate X Y Z" can overcome.

It's possibilities versus probabilities.

The sequence of events gives

possible

reasons for slots to be scum.

But my reasons for my townreads are OVERWHELMINGLY

probable

in being correct, to the point of virtually being impossible-to-be-wrong.

[mastina]

Oh wait, she's not the one voting me. Carry on.

I mean, I have your slot in the PoE if it makes you feel better.

But, I have VERY damn good reasons to have that PoE, literally everyone outside the PoE has reasons to be town SO overwhelmingly that genuinely the only place possible for scum is in the remainder.

But, the remainder IS higher than the number of scum in the game so you being in the PoE doesn't make you scum, it just makes me willing to vote you.

[mastina]

? Can you explain your post to us more?

Assuming that you're talking to us, we're a Loyal Rolestopper.
-Rubella

Why would you protect us over claimed prs?

Mumps and Measles wanted to see your reaction.
We're actually Loyal Neapolitan.
I guess that your reaction means that you're Town.
-Rubella

(I'm like 90% sure that Eubella is trolling, here. Joking, reaction testing, having fun, whatever they want to call it, and that this is not an actual serious claim.

We're it serious, then I will give serious thoughts on it.)

[mastina]

HEAL: Firebringer
HEAL: unwnd
HEAL: furtiveglance

(Just these three for now. I have my reasons for suggesting a vig in these three.)

[mastina]

Oh so the scumclaim of a role was an actual scumclaim not a Troll, reaction test, or joke???

...WELL THEN.
VOTE: MMR

[mastina]

Oh so the scumclaim of a role was an actual scumclaim not a Troll, reaction test, or joke???

...WELL THEN.
VOTE: MMR

Can you explain here please?

I don’t see how you get here.

Well, it's both mechanics and play.

Play can be chalked up to mistake from ONE player, but from THREE players, ESPECIALLY mechanics-oriented players, it is so borderline unacceptable that it is genuinely an instant elimination.

Let's start with the Neapolitan half. A Neapolitan is at its strongest by targeting VTs, to generate hard-innocents. And since we have VTs in the game per the D1 flip, that means that MMR would know that they should try to get innocent results.

The D1 elimination proved that there are VTs, but you know what also happened just before the elimination?

...Not one, but TWO different players effectively hard-townslipped a claim which essentially hinted at being VTs.
Scarfmanship spelled this out the night I claimed, that T-Bone and Enchant believing that their role PMs gave no hint to alignment basically hard-spewed them as VTs.

A Neapolitan, with not one but TWO players that essentially accidentally hardclaimed VT, chose to investigate NEITHER if them???

I can get some random player making that mistake.
But Ircher is, infamously, a mechanics-oriented player. Do you think Ircher with a Neapolitan sees two players who basically hardclaimed VT and decides to investigate neither of them?

RH9 from my understanding is ALSO mechanics-oriented. I've never actually played with him to verify, but seeing how he's literally THE most prolific user in mafia discussion, discussing the mechanics of roles, I'm pretty damn certain that he is a mechanics-oriented player, and I don’t buy him making the Mistake, either.

Roden is the only one who could, but even TODEN is no slouch mechanically.

And you want to tell me that not one, not two, but THREE different holders of the role which is mechanics oriented made a night action choice that is woefully suboptimal?

It's beyond improbable.

It's not like Neapolitan is a gimmicky role. It's one of the most common Normal Game roles in existence. So all three of them should know the basic theory of the value of a hard-innocent.


Beyond that? PPF was town enough to be a nightkill option--you don’t try to target players who could be the nightkill, you specifically try to target those who will not be. This doesn’t contradict the above, either since neither T-Bone nor Enchant were likely nightkills ESPECIALLY given being vanilla. Even if they thought ONE VT would be nightkilled, they would know at least one would live--and let's be real, mo scum kills Enchant ever. So they could safely target Enchant.

PPF was more town than scum yesterday.
So being so, which alignment has more reason to effectively rolecop them? (Neapolitan is a hybrid between Cop and Rolecop.)
It ain't town.

Scum had more reasons to rolecop PPF than town did.

AND INE MORE THING--MathBlade was a PR claim, but why not target Dingle Dangle Scarecrow? MY being unable to target either makes sense (it'd potentially hard-clear them), but MMR's role has no such justification--why not check DDS???

This all is play. You can attempt to write it off as a display of absolute sheer incompetence if you'd like, a collective brain shutdown from all three players who should know better. (Roden literally got mislimmed in part thanks to targeting a PPF like player N1. So to make the same sort of mistake twice is even less likely.)

But then we get into the actual role part.

Namely, how the two halves are highly redundant.
ANY result that is successful is an automatic innocent, thanks to Loyal.
Neapolitan is a role which generates innocents in of itself, by targeting VTs.
By stacking the two, it becomes effectively a more powerful cop, NOT ONLY learning if someone is town, BUT ALSO if they're a VT or a PR.
If it were just Neapolitan I'd believe it.
If it were just Loyal with a confirming result of literally any sort, I would believe it. (Checker, Motion Detector, etc. Literally any role which gets feedback at the end of a night, which is not already innately one of the strongest investigative roles in the game the way Neapolitan is.)

Beyond all that?

I don’t believe that the town has a Loyal Neapolitan ON TOP OF the revealing mechanic shown at the end of D1 ON TOP OF my role, which theirs is basically a stronger version of.

My role just checks for attunement, which is a possible indicator of alignment and potentially reveals role or VTs;
Theirs gets outright confirmation of alignment AND role. They're literally claiming a stronger version of my role, which was even able to act a night sooner than me! (BTW free piece of NRG advice: the NRG tends to balance odd/even night roles by putting the weaker one FIRST, not second. Not always, but as a way to keep the power down.)

And then there are two other reasons for why I think that's a mechical scumclaim, but I'll finish with a final non-mechanics one:
I don’t buy MMR being blocked by scum;
I don’t buy PPF being an unclaimed ascetic;
MMR were in the PoE already for scum;
PPF are town enough to be basically conftown.
If they're trying to force a noncommittal guilty where after PPF flip town they go "Oh I guess we were roleblocked", well, I call bullshit. So, because PPF is never scum here, if there WAS a 1v1, by default, MMR would be the scum within.

And to reiterate, I have two extra mechanics reasons for doubting the claim beyond what I've shared.
Maybe a play reason or two, too.

[mastina]

RR why are you voting with mastina despite believing she was scum D1

I admit I'm not fond of RR's presence on MMR, but given the choice between a wagon on the towniest slot in the game,
Versus a wagon on a slot that made a claim of a mechanics-oriented role that if they were honest they MASSIVELY fucked up on in spite of being mechanics-oriented players whose role I believe is mechanically not real in multiple ways and who was already in the PoE for scum.

I ain't voting for the towniest slot in the game, that's for sure.

And if absolutely need be, I can out the mechanics reasons I'm holding back on, but I believe that MB in particular can figure it out without my help if my Suspicion is correct.

[mastina]

Oh so the scumclaim of a role was an actual scumclaim not a Troll, reaction test, or joke???

...WELL THEN.
VOTE: MMR

Can you explain here please?

I don’t see how you get here.

Well, it's both mechanics and play.

Play can be chalked up to mistake from ONE player, but from THREE players, ESPECIALLY mechanics-oriented players, it is so borderline unacceptable that it is genuinely an instant elimination.

Let's start with the Neapolitan half. A Neapolitan is at its strongest by targeting VTs, to generate hard-innocents. And since we have VTs in the game per the D1 flip, that means that MMR would know that they should try to get innocent results.

The D1 elimination proved that there are VTs, but you know what also happened just before the elimination?

...Not one, but TWO different players effectively hard-townslipped a claim which essentially hinted at being VTs.
Scarfmanship spelled this out the night I claimed, that T-Bone and Enchant believing that their role PMs gave no hint to alignment basically hard-spewed them as VTs.

A Neapolitan, with not one but TWO players that essentially accidentally hardclaimed VT, chose to investigate NEITHER if them???

I can get some random player making that mistake.
But Ircher is, infamously, a mechanics-oriented player. Do you think Ircher with a Neapolitan sees two players who basically hardclaimed VT and decides to investigate neither of them?

RH9 from my understanding is ALSO mechanics-oriented. I've never actually played with him to verify, but seeing how he's literally THE most prolific user in mafia discussion, discussing the mechanics of roles, I'm pretty damn certain that he is a mechanics-oriented player, and I don’t buy him making the Mistake, either.

Roden is the only one who could, but even TODEN is no slouch mechanically.

And you want to tell me that not one, not two, but THREE different holders of the role which is mechanics oriented made a night action choice that is woefully suboptimal?

It's beyond improbable.

It's not like Neapolitan is a gimmicky role. It's one of the most common Normal Game roles in existence. So all three of them should know the basic theory of the value of a hard-innocent.


Beyond that? PPF was town enough to be a nightkill option--you don’t try to target players who could be the nightkill, you specifically try to target those who will not be. This doesn’t contradict the above, either since neither T-Bone nor Enchant were likely nightkills ESPECIALLY given being vanilla. Even if they thought ONE VT would be nightkilled, they would know at least one would live--and let's be real, mo scum kills Enchant ever. So they could safely target Enchant.

PPF was more town than scum yesterday.
So being so, which alignment has more reason to effectively rolecop them? (Neapolitan is a hybrid between Cop and Rolecop.)
It ain't town.

Scum had more reasons to rolecop PPF than town did.

AND INE MORE THING--MathBlade was a PR claim, but why not target Dingle Dangle Scarecrow? MY being unable to target either makes sense (it'd potentially hard-clear them), but MMR's role has no such justification--why not check DDS???

This all is play. You can attempt to write it off as a display of absolute sheer incompetence if you'd like, a collective brain shutdown from all three players who should know better. (Roden literally got mislimmed in part thanks to targeting a PPF like player N1. So to make the same sort of mistake twice is even less likely.)

But then we get into the actual role part.

Namely, how the two halves are highly redundant.
ANY result that is successful is an automatic innocent, thanks to Loyal.
Neapolitan is a role which generates innocents in of itself, by targeting VTs.
By stacking the two, it becomes effectively a more powerful cop, NOT ONLY learning if someone is town, BUT ALSO if they're a VT or a PR.
If it were just Neapolitan I'd believe it.
If it were just Loyal with a confirming result of literally any sort, I would believe it. (Checker, Motion Detector, etc. Literally any role which gets feedback at the end of a night, which is not already innately one of the strongest investigative roles in the game the way Neapolitan is.)

Beyond all that?

I don’t believe that the town has a Loyal Neapolitan ON TOP OF the revealing mechanic shown at the end of D1 ON TOP OF my role, which theirs is basically a stronger version of.

My role just checks for attunement, which is a possible indicator of alignment and potentially reveals role or VTs;
Theirs gets outright confirmation of alignment AND role. They're literally claiming a stronger version of my role, which was even able to act a night sooner than me! (BTW free piece of NRG advice: the NRG tends to balance odd/even night roles by putting the weaker one FIRST, not second. Not always, but as a way to keep the power down.)

And then there are two other reasons for why I think that's a mechical scumclaim, but I'll finish with a final non-mechanics one:
I don’t buy MMR being blocked by scum;
I don’t buy PPF being an unclaimed ascetic;
MMR were in the PoE already for scum;
PPF are town enough to be basically conftown.
If they're trying to force a noncommittal guilty where after PPF flip town they go "Oh I guess we were roleblocked", well, I call bullshit. So, because PPF is never scum here, if there WAS a 1v1, by default, MMR would be the scum within.

And to reiterate, I have two extra mechanics reasons for doubting the claim beyond what I've shared.
Maybe a play reason or two, too.

BUT WAIT, THERE’S *MORE*!!!

(I know when people say that, they usually immediately reveal the more, per the infomercial meme, but in this case, I unironically want you to wait, because there is more for both play AND role, which I can explain later--just not right now.)

[mastina]

I'm trying to think through cases right now of what's going on, because I don't understand MMR's motivation.

I'm not typing the full thing up yet (have other things to do), but I was actually gonna address that!

I have a theory!

As the sun begins to set, a ray of sunlight catches onto Mathblade and surrounds him. Likewise, as the moon rises the moonlight surrounds Dingle Dangle Scarecrow. They are surrounded by radiant and ethereal light.

Mathblade is blessed by the solar god Helius. He cannot be aligned with the Lunar Cult. If he was eliminated during this phase, the Solar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Solar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is blessed by the lunar goddess Luna. They cannot be aligned with the Solar Cult. If they were eliminated during this phase, the Lunar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Lunar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

I don't think that players being bathed in moonlight/sunlight was a mechanic specific to D1.

Now, the

details

might differ.
Maybe instead of a nerf to the other scumteam, one specific elimination gives a buff to the scumteam.
Maybe instead of knowing which player gives the enemy team a debuff, they know which player would give them a debuff.
Maybe it's still a debuff, but somehow different from a vanillaize of the scumteam.

But my theory is the

mechanic

is still present. As in, every day, until some sort of condition is met, two players are revealed with one revealed as not-sun and the other not-moon.
Those conditions could be anything from
-A scum player is eliminated,
-Enough phases of the game have passed (with it having been a set number, say, 2-4 reveals total),
-A player that was bathed in sun/moonlight is eliminated,
Who knows exactly.

But I don't think that it was just a D1 thing, just MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow and nobody else for the rest of the game.

Obviously, that theory is something which will either be proven to have merit or be proven wrong once this day phase ends. So no way of knowing.

But if my theory is right, you know what that gives scum incentive to do?

Potentially--eliminate a target.

If Past Present Future are bathed in light right now, that gives a motive for MMR to eliminate them,

especially

given the SOFT nature of the guilty. They're not claiming cop with a guilty where after a townflip from PPF we always kill MMR. They're claiming a soft guilty, one which is easy to talk their way out of when PPF flip town.

The reward from an elimination on a bathed target would be worth the risk of

potentially

(but not guaranteed) being eliminated after, would it not?

That gives incentive, that gives motive.

[mastina]

This game needs religion because I fucking pray that a semblance of transparency can be developed

This thread has plenty of transparency present, literally half the town is showing it.
Yume is showing it with her posting. That's self-evident.
T-Bone is showing it with his posting. That's self-evident.
Past Present Future have shown it with their posting. Nancy has made it self-evident.
MathBlade has shown it with his posting. That's self-evident.
For the

most

part I've shown it with mine (I'm currently holding out on a mechanical reason for MMR being scum and a play-based one, but otherwise am fully open). (I personally believe that to be self-evident too.)

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow I will argue has, too.

Heck, while I don't think he's town, even furtiveglance has been transparent. (Not every slot being transparent guarantees them being town, and not every slot lacking transparency is going to be in the PoE pool.)

So like.

That's at least seven slots of 15, literally half the game, which is transparent.
Six of which are guaranteed to be town.

Saying there hasn't been transparency is an outright lie.

[mastina]

I've been doing a lot of things just to see what would stick. I get frustrated when those attempts are ignored. This is how I get into games, and I am not getting any feedback

Well when you insist the towniest slots in the game are scum when those slots are honorary masons in all knowing each other to be town:
That's gonna happen.

I am perfectly willing to engage you in the likes of scumreads on furtiveglance, among others.

Try to argue that Past Present Future, Yume, myself, etc. are scum tho?

Nah.

I've explained why they are town and I fucking know my read is right--I ain't budging on those reads because they're not wrong.

I've also explained my scumreads to be fair, but none of them are set in stone because like, the main reason for them to be scumreads is outright just being in the PoE.

I disagree with the state of the game because I'm bitter about how D1 happened

I mean when you wagon me when I'm town that's gonna happen--disappointment is inevitable. Town get disappointed if the flip actually goes through (which happens once every three to four years or so), scum get disappointed when it usually does not yet they thought it would.

[mastina]

This was my thought process as well, but there is a ton of pushback that PPF is town, so I feel out of the loop.

Nancy is literally the easiest player to read onsite. Genuinely, literally, the easiest.

Any player who has ever played with her before and doesn't insist meta is trash,

Should be townreading her--a lack thereof from any meta-user is genuinely a scumclaim.

It's hard for me to describe why she's town without using meta because I know the meta is right.

But, basically: a town Nancy is incredibly active (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly emotional (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly erratic (a scum Nancy, far less so), all over the place, not strategic, not focused, is basically ADHD manifested both the attention deficit part and also randomly hyperfocusing on things and ignoring things to focus on one specific thing which she locks onto. She has an energy. She knows she is town and this affects her worldview. She is extra prone to OMGUS behaviors, because with her knowing she is town, she has a FIRE on those scumreading her because in her eyes, there's no way that player could be genuinely scumreading her because clearly if they were town they wouldn't be scumreading her.

And THAT is the Nancy we have

this

game.

Titus is a harder read to explain but it is also meta and explaining without meta is more difficult.

There's also the combined meta of them specifically in a hydra. Titus has a hydra town/scum meta, so does Nancy; they're both in their town hydra meta.

Of course there's pushback to them being scum--because they're self-evidently not.

[mastina]

Because we obviously are. And I don’t understand why Roden of all people wouldn’t know that and Ircher as well but especially Roden, which is why I want to understand exactly wtf they were thinking.

On that note, Roden is definitely scum for something that I can reveal after more MMR posts where they commit to their attempt to mislim PPF.

[mastina]

Something something meta can't possibly wrong.

Not this one.

There are metas that can be wrong. Where a player superficially makes things resembling their towngame when they are scum. Players will townread that player, because of superficial similarities.
When a player has a good scumgame, and has a notable reputation for being good at it, people naturally assume their play resembles past scumgames of theirs. Players will be disinclined to trust them, because of superficial similarities.

A good scum player can display non-superficial similarities to a specific aspect of their meta short-term. That makes it possible for them to be wrongly cleared with meta if players don't reassess.


...But while those metas can all be wrong.

This ain't any of those.

Nancy is not a good scum player. Nancy's scumplay and townplay are night and day different. Nancy's scumplay has virtually zero resemblance to her townplay, and thus there are no superficial similarities.
Nancy's scumplay is bad enough that there's no reason to assume she's suddenly having the game of her life as scum, where suddenly inexplicably she's somehow leveled up her scumgame to be ten times better.

And even if Nancy were a good enough player to keep up the non-superficial similarities to her towngame temporarily--the length she has done so THIS game makes it genuinely impossible for her to be scum, here. If Nancy's townness was temporary, then she could be scum plausibly. But Nancy has only been getting stronger and stronger with time, getting more and more in her towngame. If she were scum, her scumgame would come out more and more and she'd stray further and further from her towngame.

But it's literally the opposite. She's getting more and more into her towngame and further and further from her scumgame.

Nancy is genuinely clear enough to be an Innocent Child in her own right.

[mastina]

it's the sign of a pretty clapped gamestate in which scum can slate any good town player for "TMI".

Guess what I felt with the players pushing me yesterday?

(I felt like scum were pushing me under TMI logic and I have said this repeatedly and stand by it.)

(I don't think you're scum for this btw, the reason I think you're scum is simply that I have a strong PoE of players who cannot be scum and you're outside of that giving you a 6/7 chance of being scum.)

[mastina]

What is telling to me is that with Bunny's death, a lot of people were
Yet it's not being discussed, It's not being considered
It's like it never happened

I have repeatedly stated that the Bunnyonce wagon was a compromise wagon.

You have repeatedly ignored me saying that because you don't want to acknowledge it for being what it is.

Bunnyonce was not a great wagon. I've said literally that exact thing before, you're pretending I didn't.
Me saying that (and again, this is not the first time I have) is me explicitly acknowledging the Bunnyonce wagon--it was not a great wagon.

It was an

acceptable

wagon.
It was a wagon that was not on a name highly regarded to be town by many slots.
We had one day left on the deadline, and if I recall correctly, the slots being replaced were not yet being replaced so that 24 hours was actually ticking down I think. (I could be mistaken on that tho, obv.)

If you're gonna pretend that a compromise wagon that literally everyone on the wagon has admitted was exactly that,
Was something other than exactly that.

Then you're being disingenuous as fuck.

[mastina]

And please explain what accountability means. Because to me bunny was a ??? slot and I was ok with getting rid of a ??? slot because no wagons were picking up and the day was going to end.

^This.

I originally was gunning for Scarfmanship, but Scarfmanship's posting around my claim made me reconsider. [REDACTED - thought not town to talk about], and their posts warning to stop what T-Bone/Enchant did, was something I thought was also town.

Since I didn't want Scarfmanship, I needed to vote

someone

.

Someone not a townread.

I voted Bunnyonce for lack of better ideas. I knew that there were people who had said Bunnyonce was south of null--so I knew that, given the looming deadline, it was a good chance for a wagon that might go through which I would be okay with.

We had a big shake-up within the last 36 hours of D1. (I didn't know my claim was that big of a deal. I didn't know how big my role was.)
I was swamped with things, and I didn't have any time to properly process the events and form a coherent push on anyone. So I voted Bunnyonce as a "good enough for now" vote.

[mastina]

We sweeped them because scum had very little wriggle room and they simply got out-towned.

Guess what happened this game?

The actual town have out-towned the scum!

MathBlade Past Present Future, Yume, T-Bone, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, etc., have all shown themselves to be town in ways that leave the scum with no wiggle room. They are boxed in to a very narrow PoE.

This is probably in part of multiball, but if I have to state it the last multiball I played in we clean sweeped the scum and I got this stupid worthless badge underneath my name because of it.

Funny story, that.

My play this game is pretty damn close to my play that game--I've been pushed harder than I was pushed in that game, but aside from the emotional breakdown/meltdown that there are tangible rl reasons for, my play in that game was almost identical to my play in this game.

I wonder why?

And you know what else?

You're not playing anything like that game. Here you seem to be doing a lot and a lot and a lot of complaining over and over and over and over again.

Instead of actively trying to fix the issue,
Instead of trying to find a different solution,
Instead of trying to engage with the players that you would need to engage with on the stances you would need to,

You complain.
And complain.
And keep complaining.

I know what alignment I'd attribute that to!

[mastina]

I still think mastina is mafia honestly. her posts are irredeemably hollow

This game has been literally the furthest I could ever POSSIBLY get from hollow.

I literally have gone across the entire spectrum of emotions and styles and perspectives and viewpoints and approaches and what I think and where I am focusing and so on and so forth, this game.

Like--I literally have a two-page iso.

Find the last scumgame where I had a fucking two-page iso. It's a long way's back! (My scumgames this year have been ~80-100 posts. The longest was ~150, for a game that literally had 7 days and was really damn long.)
Wanna know how far back the last scumastina 2-page iso game was?
October 2017.

Five years ago

was the last time a scumastina had a two-page iso.

Because scumastina, who actually IS hollow, doesn't post worth shit. Even the games I "broke" this were in the 150s--not the nearly 300 and counting.

That ain't hollow--and claiming it is is an outright lie.

[mastina]

Some of mastina's posts today have been really awful, like proposing there's a second divine light event.

I don't see what's so bad about it.

The claim is terrible, and the target selection even worse, and the handling of it today even worse. It looks scum on every level.

PPF is guaranteed to be town, here.

So the scenarios are:
MMR is town who had their result fail,
MMR is scum who thinks PPF is scum,
MMR is scum who claimed a guilty on PPF in spite of PPF being clearly town.

The first I have laid out my reasons for finding beyond unlikely. The claim doesn't fit as town and the play doesn't fit as town.
The second

could

happen, but MMR would know they were in trouble if PPF didn't flip scum.

So, the third fits the best.

We know MMR is claiming effectively a guilty on PPF.
And PPF is town.
So the reason boils down to, we know it happened--why?
The reasons why it fits for town-MMR are sketchy-at-best.
The reasons why it fits for scum-MMR are there, with the only thing missing being the motive.

What could make claiming a guilty on town worth it for MMR?

We know that it happened; figuring out the why is secondary because it happened, the reasons we can guess but it happened.
And the best guess I have for the why is that there is more than one reveal.

My role PM is worded in a way that makes it possible to just have the one reveal, but loosely implies more than one. Some EVENTS, plural for events. The event D1 caused me to be unable to target MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow.
EVENTS implies that there's more than just the D1 reveal.
Like, sayyyy...the mechanic being applicable to more than D1?

Is it guaranteed?

Why no, no it's not!

That's why it's a theory! (A game theory!)

But it's a

good

one because it helps explain the play we know has happened.

[mastina]

Mastina starts catching up and stalling the game. Calls bunny scum. Almost every page up until mastina's claim has a post where mastina calls bunny scum (it might be in a quote, im control-f surfing)

I think I might have been mastina's original target...? But then post claim it was too obvious that I was town.

Exactly this.

Bunnyonce was in my PoE. I thought Bunnyonce had a good chance of flipping scum.

I didn't have any

good

scumreads.

I HAD scumreads, and Bunnyonce was among them.

But I didn't have any

good

scumreads. Bunnyonce was in the PoE, and I was scumreading them by play, and we were out of time--that made them an okay wagon.

Not a great wagon.

I didn't have the time to develop any strong scumreads. I didn't have the time to process events properly to really get GOOD reads, after the events played out and shaked things up.

But Bunnyonce was someone I had previously had as south of null, hadn't towned it up, and was in the PoE. So it was the best option I could think of.

[mastina]

And I think that mastina slipped having a similar role.
-Rubella

I claimed a similar role on D1 and literally not a single member of your hydra commented on it--which is one of the reasons I think your claim is bullshit.

Me claiming was a VERY BIG THING at the end of the day.

It literally was the entire reason there was a scramble in the gamestate. It spewed T-Bone as town, it spewed Enchant as town, it got Scarfmanship off the voting list, it is why Bunnyonce was the player we ended up wagoning.

And you're trying to claim none of you saw it at all and thought to comment on it at all?

[mastina]

Also, why are there people assuming that we're mech whizzes?
-Rubella

Because Ircher is literally a very big discusser of mechanics every game he plays in and a NRG member,
RH9 is one of the biggest discusser of mechanics particularly in the Normal Queue and incredibly prolific on MD,

And Roden is often involved competently in mech talk.

To claim all three of you paid no heed to mechanics at all this game is a dubious claim at best.

[mastina]

If MMR is scum I think we are looking at some quieter players for buddies
If PPF is scum we’d be looking at a Yume/Mastina/someone vocal crowd.

I mean I'm town Yume town PPF town regardless so scum are in the less vocal players regardless.

But like, yeah, duh, the scum are in the less quiet players.

Being less quiet was the move for most of D1--the largest fights were TvT. Me vs professotic, Me vs you, etc.

Was there a single fight on D1 that was large, which was not a fight that is probably TvT?

All of the active players on D1 pretty much were town. Fighting town, for most of the day.

So like.
Scum are going to be in the less-active slots, yes!

[mastina]

The fact that everyone scumreads unwnd right now is freaking me out a little bit.

Wasn’t that the case for Mastina yesterday and Yume pointed out the lack of resistance to her wagon but people weren’t freaked out over that.

Valid point, but also.

For all the people suspicious of unwnd, notice something about unwnd?

I sure do!

There's basically zero votes on him.

Actions speak louder than words.

If there's 5 players on a wagon within the PoE, that'd be a red flag.
But 4 or less, not so much. With 7 names in the PoE, that's one town and two scumteams. One scumteam plus one town equals four names that can be on scum without concern. It's 5 or more that's a "back off".

unwnd has, what? One vote? Two at most?

So there's nothing indicating he's being voted by both teams.
Quite the opposite, in fact!

[mastina]

Mastina did plenty of things to deserve suspicion.

Did I?

I seem to recall having made my thoughts on that quite clear!

'Cause I'm pretty sure that I didn't.

Is it that lots of scum voted mastina? Put their names in curly braces.

Sure!

Mastina (2) professotic,

{Frozen Angel}

Mastina (4)

{Frozen Angel}

, Mathblade, professotic,

{MMR}

[E-5]

Mastina (6)

{Frozen Angel}

, Mathblade, professotic,

{MMR}

, T-Bone,

{Radical Rat}

[E-3]

Mastina (7)

{Frozen Angel}

, Mathblade, professotic,

{MMR}

, T-Bone,

{Radical Rat, Maid Cafe}

[E-2]

Mastina (7) T-Bone,

{Radical Rat, Maid Cafe}

, professotic, Mathblade,

{unwnd, Scarfmanship}

[E-2]

Brackets around the scum names* on my wagon, as requested!

*Not all guaranteed to be scum, but are in the scum pool;

one

can be town.

[mastina]

No one is actually talking who could be scum with who.
That’s really interesting and worth noting.

I mean--I did that for basically 90% of D1.

It wasn't until near the end of the day that I gave up on it but I was

at the time

giving up on playing the game and was planning on just letting myself die, so like. I did try, I just didn't update it in the scramble at the end of the day and today I haven't sat down to do so.

I probably

could

if I tried.

With how the PoE is, seven names for six scum seems pretty easy to do.

I think {unwnd, Radical Rat, +1} still fits as one scumteam (maybe Firebringer?).

The other would be the three scum in the remaining four names.

[mastina]

Dropped off the face of the earth when she no longer had to grandstand

I literally haven't had power for five fucking days, mate.

I'm running on generator power and have been since Friday at 9:30 pm.

I said this before.

I think my thread presence is plenty fine given that I literally am posting in situations where I could lose my ability to post at any time.

My posting frequency is almost the same right now, as it is normally--maybe a bit lower, sure, but like. The fact that my posting frequency is in the 80-90% range of my norm, when I LITERALLY AM IN A FIVE FUCKING DAY POWER OUTAGE AND COUNTING, probably indicates something!

(It's that unwnd is full of shit.)

[mastina]

Does anyone

object

to elimming one and day vigging the other?

That depends.

In the unlikely event MMR is town, I object to vigging Past Present Future.

In the event MMR flips scum, I object to vigging PPF for obvious reasons.

If y'all are dumb fucks and eliminate PPF then vig the SHIT out of MMR for it tho.

[mastina]

So...uh...I am suddenly scared mastina is deceiving me...

Fair, but I'm not.

Yes, I know how to.

I just am not.

I'm town, you're town, PPF is town.

I don't really have anything to give you to prove it. I get that you don't like me townreading you, but you did display your towntells. You used THE code (last used in TFT), you breadcrumbed in your signature town style with your cryptic earlygame phrasing and then the YT videos, you have had reads evolve as things have come up that have changed your perspective, but have been extra stubborn on insisting certain things to be the case. You have shown extreme emotion and frustration, are incredibly active, you are pushing HARDcore, you are displaying a genuine thought process every step of the way. I get the paranoia in townreading you because scumastina would pocket you by having you as town--but like. Do you think that the things I just described here aren't true to your town meta? Do you think the things I described are things that I cannot see when I am town?

Because I saw them, and they are towntells, and they make you town.

And if you still aren't happy with my townread on you, then you can just look at my play. You've seen my scumgame, you've seen my towngame. You know this isn't my scumgame.

I get the paranoia.

But we're both town.
Period.

[mastina]

Because we obviously are. And I don’t understand why Roden of all people wouldn’t know that and Ircher as well but especially Roden, which is why I want to understand exactly wtf they were thinking.

On that note, Roden is definitely scum for something that I can reveal after more MMR posts where they commit to their attempt to mislim PPF.

What’s concerning me about them is I still don’t understand their reasoning for claiming to target/reaction test me in the first place. If according to them I can only be Lunar or town, why is that even a reason to do either one? And in addition to that why did they rule out Solar? Why not just give some actual reasoning for even being suss on me in the first place? It’s just weirdly specific.

All valid, yes!

[mastina]

Like half of you motherfuckers are saying 'unwnd is scum' but won't even vote me

It's

almost

like we have MMR having scumclaimed today and thus have a higher priority!

We can lim you tomorrow after MMR flips scum.

[mastina]

That said, if mastina is scum, then one of her 'townreads' should have been killed. The fact that none of us were is a point in her favor.

Multiball, so I could be on the Solar Cult scumteam, but yes--if I were scum here I wouldn't have killed professotic.

Yes, they were in my locktown, but professotic is never who I kill. MathBlade would be a much better choice, or if not him, then someone who I feel is universally town and represents a tangible threat. You for instance. Maybe T-Bone as a read specific to this game. Potentially Past Present Future albeit admittedly less likely.

So, I'm definitely not Lunar Cult, but I could be Solar Cult still.

[mastina]

Btw @Mastina, I don’t understand why you’re saying my scumgame is terrible. Did you forget about Stumps and FFIV?

It's admittedly an exaggeration.

But, you can't keep this level up as scum for this long and a scum you doesn't bring this up like this anyway.

[mastina]

I voted Bunnyonce for lack of better ideas

Lol bullshit

You're acting like anything you're quoting is mutually exclusive with 3429.

Problem is, they aren't. They augment each other, not contradict each other.

I didn't have any better ideas than Bunnyonce.
Bunnyonce was a scumread.
I had Bunnyonce in the PoE.
Bunnyonce was a compromise wagon.

None of those statements contradict each other because they were all true.

Pretending otherwise is disingenous as fuck.

[mastina]

The kicker:

VOTE: Bunnyonce
Yeah this is scum.

Funny thing about that tho--you're trying to act like when I voted Bunnyonce in the "yeah this is scum", that was my final vote of the day.

Turns out you're lying about the narrative in the hopes nobody fact-checks. (Quite convenient that you left out the full posts and didn't quote the post numbers.)

If you're a town PR who refused to claim out of plain stubbornness the miselimination will be on you, and I will not be feeling any guilt for voting you out.

I think you're not making these long posts with the claimed intention of getting town to know your legacy better, but either to wear everyone down, mislead everyone or just for yourself.

VOTE: Bunnyonce

Yeah this is scum.

This betrays a scum mindset. "just for yourself" would, explicitly, be town.
"wear everyone down" would be nai.
The only of these which would be scum is "mislead everyone", but I am gradually proving that to not be true by following through on it, so like: the proof it's not is right there.

So admitting that it comes from a spot of town and trying to shift the blame on it to me when there's no reason to rush, is scum.

You know what happened after that?

REASONABLE CHANCE OF SCUM:
{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce}

SCUM:
{Radja/unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}

VOTE: Scarfmanship

Yume:

Not sure where you're voting from memory, but if you join me here and these two are also there, we can at least go down swinging. It might not save me but it will make a statement for when I flip town. And force scum to react. Again.[/quote]

literally every other player in the game has not pushed players as town OR scum--and it's in those zero-pushers, those lazy posters, that you'll find the scum.
And that list?
That's {MMR, furtiveglance, Enchant, Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}.

Obviously, that list is too large considering the number of scum in the game.
But that list should contain

all

the scum in the game. Imo, not most; ALL. (I understand if you think it's only most, tho, but you should agree that it's most.)

And from that list of nine, you need only get the three towniest players to have a list of scum form. It's my belief that the towniest of the lazy players are MMR/furvie/Enchant. Which by default, leaves the scum as Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, and Frozen Angel.

IIIII should be in bed,
I should be in bed
Why am I postingggg
It's an hour past time,
I should be in beddd
But I wanna do this nowwwww.
VOTE: Bunnyonce
(this is mostly a Scarfmanship unvote)

Scarfmanship isn't locktowned for the post-claim-reveal posting but definitely is less of a priority for me imo. Not sure what that means for reads, need to take a look at things tomorrow with all the new info.

I agree with Scarf tho that T-Bone and Enchant both hard town.

THIS was the post where I actually voted Bunnyonce.

[mastina]

The kicker:

VOTE: Bunnyonce
Yeah this is scum.

Funny thing about that tho--you're trying to act like when I voted Bunnyonce in the "yeah this is scum", that was my final vote of the day.

Turns out you're lying about the narrative in the hopes nobody fact-checks. (Quite convenient that you left out the full posts and didn't quote the post numbers.)

If you're a town PR who refused to claim out of plain stubbornness the miselimination will be on you, and I will not be feeling any guilt for voting you out.

I think you're not making these long posts with the claimed intention of getting town to know your legacy better, but either to wear everyone down, mislead everyone or just for yourself.

VOTE: Bunnyonce

Yeah this is scum.

This betrays a scum mindset. "just for yourself" would, explicitly, be town.
"wear everyone down" would be nai.
The only of these which would be scum is "mislead everyone", but I am gradually proving that to not be true by following through on it, so like: the proof it's not is right there.

So admitting that it comes from a spot of town and trying to shift the blame on it to me when there's no reason to rush, is scum.

You know what happened after that?

REASONABLE CHANCE OF SCUM:
{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce}

SCUM:
{Radja/unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}

VOTE: Scarfmanship

Yume:

Not sure where you're voting from memory, but if you join me here and these two are also there, we can at least go down swinging. It might not save me but it will make a statement for when I flip town. And force scum to react. Again.

literally every other player in the game has not pushed players as town OR scum--and it's in those zero-pushers, those lazy posters, that you'll find the scum.
And that list?
That's {MMR, furtiveglance, Enchant, Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}.

Obviously, that list is too large considering the number of scum in the game.
But that list should contain

all

the scum in the game. Imo, not most; ALL. (I understand if you think it's only most, tho, but you should agree that it's most.)

And from that list of nine, you need only get the three towniest players to have a list of scum form. It's my belief that the towniest of the lazy players are MMR/furvie/Enchant. Which by default, leaves the scum as Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, and Frozen Angel.

IIIII should be in bed,
I should be in bed
Why am I postingggg
It's an hour past time,
I should be in beddd
But I wanna do this nowwwww.
VOTE: Bunnyonce
(this is mostly a Scarfmanship unvote)

Scarfmanship isn't locktowned for the post-claim-reveal posting but definitely is less of a priority for me imo. Not sure what that means for reads, need to take a look at things tomorrow with all the new info.

I agree with Scarf tho that T-Bone and Enchant both hard town.

THIS was the post where I actually voted Bunnyonce.

Fix'd quote tag.

[mastina]

I now regret abandoning the hydra with mastina. *'poofs* I'll be around. If you need me, just call.

If it makes you feel better, it means that whoever would've gotten your role wouldn't be conftown so like--you being separate means masons instead of IC.

[mastina]

People really just be just saying shit and hoping nobody notices

Funny, what a coincidence, I just showed how you did precisely what you're saying in 3448, in my 3558, about your 3446!

For someone saying people are saying shit and hoping nobody notices,
You sure seem to have been saying shit and hoping nobody noticed!

[mastina]

I voted Bunnyonce for lack of better ideas.

I knew that there were people who had said Bunnyonce was south of null--so I knew that, given the looming deadline, it was a good chance for a wagon that might go through which I would be okay with.

This is like
A scumslip
And somehow people will ignore it

It's almost like you're the one inventing a narrative because there was no contradiction to be had!

I did vote Bunnyonce for lack of better ideas. I literally said my vote on Bunnyonce was mostly a Scarfmanship unvote. I was scumreading Bunnyonce for most of the game, Bunnyonce was in the PoE, I didn't want to wagon Scarfmanship, I knew other people were scumreading Bunnyonce, so I didn't have any better ideas for a compromise/deadline wagon that would go through.

It was a wagon with decent chances of going through on scum, but Bunnyonce was never my strongest scumread.

My strongest scumread has mostly been your slot, as it turns out!

And if not for the MMR claim on PPF I would be voting you!

[mastina]

You are intentionally being obtuse with how mastina is literally not remembering her own posts

I mean in general, I don't remember my posts. I'm too plural + adhd to remember things. I DO need to recheck my iso constantly for my own thoughts. (Fun fact, every game I do a town town? scum? scum list in? I need to iso myself before making a readslist. No, seriously. Because I forget my own reads I made. )

But in this case, my memory serves me well enough where I didn't need to. What I've said is consistent with my posts and would be shown by actually reading them, especially with the context of the game.

You on the other hand are lying your ass off, so...

[mastina]

Unwd and Mastina are ignoring the guilty claim that they both have seen.
But they aren’t actually answering questions.
If my plan is bad they would say why and then move on to other slots

I beg your pardon,

MathBlade

???

Did you not read 3413, 3415, or 3419?

How about prior to that, the fact that I literally laid out why MMR's post was a scumclaim, and 3192, and 3248???

I've made my stance quite clear on the guilty claim.

MMR is scum;
Past Present Future is town.

How much more clear do you want me to be?
I said that PPF is always town.
I said that MMR is like 98.99% scum.

What more are you asking for???

[mastina]

Voting Mastina because they seem more defensive than last game, and their role sounds too useless to be real. And I want us to get past Mastina/unwnd clogging the game up
VOTE: Mastina

Btw this reasoning is pretty damn obviously faked.

It's transparently voting me because he sees the potential for the wagon to go through.

It's not a real stance.

To borrow unwnd's words:
It's a hollow post.

[mastina]

I actually was trying to lurk D1 believe it or not :/

Sorry!

I thought your lurking was you being scum!

I'm not sad about it making you conftown tho.

[mastina]

Made my flag smaller and transparent so I can sign my posts with it

Oh hey I like this, it fits with my "I'm DONE being mastina" thing.

(Even tho I ironically have fallen back in, the sentiment still stands.)

[mastina]

That said, unwnd here is way too over the top.

It's ALMOST like he wants to drown the thread out with noise from the fact that I've been making some pretty damn fucking good points that condemn him in particular.

[mastina]

(I'd use this one but dimensions wrong, ms won't accept it, too much work to save the transparency.)

[mastina]

You will not vote me

Boy oh boy would I like to.

Alas.

Unlike you I'm not going to let the town be distracted from the fact that MMR is scum, claiming a guilty on guaranteed town.

[mastina]

In the event MMR flips town you agreed that MMR wouldn’t be roleblocked so why would they get no result?

I agreed it wasn't likely they got roleblocked.

I think it is more likely that MMR is scum than town who got roleblocked.

But I'm never wrong on Past Present Future being town and thus their result

cannot

be a guilty.

The options are ONLY MMR-roleblocked-town OR MMR-scum.

That's it.

I believe MMR-scum, but if MMR was town then they were roleblocked in spite of me thinking they wouldn't be.

I don't think MMR was roleblocked which is one of the reasons I think MMR is scum!

But in the event MMR did flip town, the only possibility is MMR was roleblocked because PPF is never scum here, ever.

[mastina]

And you know Lunar killed last night because?

Because all Lunar have moon affinity and last night was Night?

Moon = Night = Lunar.

Is it confirmed?

No!

Neither is six scum confirmed.

Neither is that the bathed-in-moonlight/sunlight is more than a one-day event.

Nothing I have said about the Lunar/Solar cult is confirmed except what the mod said at the end of the day, in the setup info, and in my role PM specifying all Lunar = Moon, all Solar = Sun.

That's it.

But it's a pretty likely theory imo.

[mastina]

I think they all mean different things, from my experience at least.

Not to me, and as I am the one who was thinking them, it is my opinion that matters, not yours.

[mastina]

Mastina has an excuse and reason for everything she's done and takes zero responsibility for it
How is that town

I've answered this before, but to reiterate.

I will take accountability for things that I am actually accountable for.

I have an answer for things because as it turns out, most of the things being said are things that I have pretty damn good thoughts on!

It's almost like your narrative of my posts being hollow is proven wrong by you admitting I have an answer to everything! (The two are literally mutually exclusive.)

[mastina]

(Okay be back in 30 mins or so but need to reboot generator.)

[mastina]

VOTE: MMR
Since the borked post which was obviously not a Scarfmanship vote was counted by the mod, putting this back where it belongs.

[mastina]

I mean, you yourself said why you could still be scum.

Sure did!

But I'm town and if you look at the people on my wagon, how many of THEM do you think are town?

This is a weirdly accurate post and very out of character, but this is all true so I dunno why people are arguing differently about the end of day 1.

It's almost like they're scum trying to revive the mastina wagon to both prevent me from using my role and prevent the MMR wagon from going through!

[mastina]

And the reason I fear her is because if she is scum, she'll kill me. Her words, not mine.

I'm really curious about this thought. You are Mastina's biggest ally and pocketed if she's scum. Why would you be paranoid of a nightkill from her?

I mean, I

would

!

Yume is universally townread, she is persistent, she is incredibly active and aggressive, and her reads are a wildcard. She literally can have someone as conftown one second and confscum the next.

I might be one of the only players onsite to respect Yume's towngame as a threat when I am scum--but I do in fact respect it.

So Yume's not wrong; I would nightkill her here if I were scum. Maybe not

immediately

, but well before any lylo.

Especially since I just beat Yume when I was effectively scum. (Technically, I was a mason, but with a nightkill, being an informed minority, with Yume as the informed majority. I was playing like scum, she was playing like town, because we both were effectively that at that time.)

I would be quite aware Yume would have it out for me after that game; it was that game which made Yume want to play this game solo, as to get another chance. (This time we're both town tho.)

[mastina]

Mastina doesn't engage with anyone but PPF/MathBlade/Yume (Her pocket)
Look at her posts outside of that and tell me if that looks like someone who is trying to get a read on others

Oh please do, that'd show this statement to be a lie!

I feel the need to reiterate that unwnd is saying things in the hopes nobody fact-checks them.

I have engaged T-Bone, Scarfmanship, talked to furtive, talked to Toogeloo, and I was reaching out to MMR before they said they weren't joking in their claim.

And that's just on D2!

My D1 posts will show quite handsomely that I have engaged with quite a number more players than PPF/MathBlade/Yume/Dingle Dangle Scarecrow.

But as for reads--you're acting like this is early in D1 with a statement like that.

I already got reads. We had all of D1 for me to get reads.

Do I magically need to get brand new ones on D2?

That ain't how it works.

When I have damn good reads.
All of my reasons for those reads build up.

The fact that you were a lurksack all of D1 when it was convenient still applies to you.
That I have strong townreads that I have good reason to locktown still applies because of D1.

And the things going on right now?

The only thing they are doing is making the existing reads stronger.

I have said from D1:

SCUM:
{Frozen Angel}

???
{Maid Cafe}

{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship}

{Radja}

SCUM:
{Frozen Angel}

??? (could be PoE scum, but hard to lock down for sure)
{Maid Cafe}

{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship}

REASONABLE CHANCE OF SCUM:
{Radja}

SCUM:
{Radical Rat}
{Frozen Angel}

??? (could be PoE scum, but hard to lock down for sure)
{Maid Cafe}

{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship}

SCUM:
{Radja/unwnd}

{Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}

My reads right now have fairly good base:
LOCKTOWN:
{Past Present Future, Save The Dragons, Yume, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow (comfortable moving them up here), MathBlade} (most locktown of locktown)
TOWN:
{professotic, T-Bone}

VIBED TOWN:
{MMR}

LEAN TOWN:
{furtiveglance} (both tiers of lean town apt, just furtive's more town than Enchant)

{Enchant} (both tiers of lean town apt, just Enchant has a higher scum equity imo)



PoE scum? (hard to lock down for sure)
{Maid Cafe}

REASONABLE CHANCE OF SCUM:
{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship}

SCUM:
{Radja/unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}

So my current scumteam guesses would be,
{Radical Rat, unwnd, Scarfmanship}
{Frozen Angel, Maid Cafe, Bunnyonce}

DOUBLE-LOCKTOWN (role+play):
{MathBlade, Yume, T-Bone, Enchant}
LOCKTOWN (play):
{Save the Dragons/Ydrasse, Past Present Future, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, professotic} (professotic probably gets bumped up if full claiming, but hasn't yet and obviously shouldn't, but I can't list them above without knowing more info about their role)

TOWN:
{Scarfmanship*} (interactions around my claim + I believe the read of having seen my 'crumbs--not enough to locktown, but enough to keep out of PoE)

Including me, that's 10/17 as town.

Which leaves seven names for 4-6 scum, among the remainder:

TOWNLEAN:
{MMR} (I loosely think that all 3 heads are in their respective town metas and that their Hydra talk has been town, but not strongly enough to keep them altogether outside of the PoE. I'd prefer to not vote them, but if I absolutely had to, I'd compromise there)

AMBIVALENT:
{furtiveglance} (it still doesn't look like his play from Datisi's Cafe, but his play doesn’t actually look town and has many objectively scummy stances)

SCUMLEAN:
{Maid Cafe}

SCUMREAD:
{Frozen Angel, unwnd, Radical Rat}

You may note that even that, which was my last readslist on D1, is not identical to my readslist now, because I kicked Bunnyonce out of the town section after reading the reasons for doubting Bunnyonce as town.

And now?

Where would the locktown pool be wrong? It's not. So where are the scum?
In the remainder.

The remainder being {Scarfmanship, MMR, furtiveglance, Maid Cafe(Toogeloo), Frozen Angel(Firebringer), unwnd, Radical Rat}.
That remainder still has seven names in it--meaning one name in there is town at minimum.

I don't particularly care which name in the pool we eliminate. I'll vote any of them. If someone else wants to campaign for a particular name in the pool, I'll follow their push.

But like--we should

never

be eliminating outside that PoE, because that PoE is not wrong.

Now?

We have seven names for six scum.

In that list, Scarfmanship continues to be ambivalent but overall leans scum.
furtive is genuinely frustrated and I don't think most of the reasons for him to be scum apply, but he tipped his hand by his reversal of stance on me and him simply not seeming town.
Frozen Angel was always lockscum here--I'm not gonna claim I can read Firebringer but can say everything he is doing is pro-scum, yet because he was FA I CAN say Frozen Angel was scum so Firebringer is, no need to go through the grief of Firebringer.
unwnd is scum for ten different reasons.
MMR is scum for the claim.

Radical Rat's reasons for being scum yesterday didn't magically vanish today. Their posting still fits as scum. They're being helpful to the town, but still are scum.

Some of those I could be wrong about--Scarfmanship, furtive, heck

maybe

even Radical Rat or MMR (tho I doubt it).

But at least five of them must be scum because scum are in the PoE.
(For the record, with seven names in the PoE, I believe Toogeloo to be the towniest of them and the most likely to be town. Does that guarantee that Toog is town? No, if I'm wrong on one of the six being scum, Toog would be scum by default. But I lean town there.)

[mastina]

My strongest scumread has mostly been your slot, as it turns out!

i have a hard time buying u believe unwnd scum

I mean, you're scum, so.

The proof I've scumread unwnd is literally in my posts since before unwnd was in the game. Radja was weak, but the read exploded in strength once unwnd scummed it up.

[mastina]

She won't explain that

Won't explain my unwnd read?

About that!

I have! You know I have, you're counting on people not looking it up, but I have!

Radja is probably scum and it is worth it!
VOTE: Radja

I buy this.

I've been keeping up on my phone, but the amount of players and hydra heads in this game make it hard for me to get much reads really.

This has a fairly good chance of being scum.

Radja I don't really like the content of, but not enough to be strongly scum. PoE is a good slot-in, probably, but not entirely sure.

So in your head is mastina like this scum ringleader and the defenders are associated? I don't know if I can exactly see that, because it begs the question what happens if mastina goes over? All her defenders would be incriminated

(Btw I think it bears mentioning: everything unwnd is saying pretty much looks town, but I don't think it's actually town. I'm not convinced it's town, so much as I think that nothing unwnd has said so far is truly alignment-indicative one way or another.)

Titus would a 'i told you so' be enough of a reward if mastina was just limmed?

I have a post on this, lemme pull it up.

There's a part of me that believes she's doing it out of spite to get one over on those of us with an incorrect read.

I mean--explicitly so, yes! I've been QUITE clear about my stance on this:

If you can't tell that I am town from what I have posted so far in the game, you don't deserve to. Ever. (Hope that wording's okay.) If you think you have any form of tell on me that comes to the conclusion I am scum--I know I'm town so no fucking duh, I am gonna be smug when you see the townflip.

I've gone through enough shit in one week that I, well and truly, don't give a damn.

There are things that I am obligated to do--share my thoughts on who I think is scum, share my thoughts on who I think is town.
Some stronger than others.

But putting any work into saving myself? Not among the things I'm obligated to do.

Every single vote on me has bullshit reasoning. Literally every single one of them. There are NO valid reasons to vote me, here. Even the "just end the day" logic, even the "this will continue tomorrow if not resolved today" logic, even the posts about it being content revolving around me making a toxic mindset?

Bullshit logic.

But while the reasoning used to vote me is absolute shit--literally none of it is worth responding to.
If I have other reasons to engage with a post with bullshit reasoning, I will still engage with the post.

But by default, just not worth the effort. You can't see I'm town, you don't deserve to. You claim you read me as scum, you have no fucking clue what you were talking about. I don't really care to prove it, because the flip does that for me. So, yes. Not bothering to try. And yes, out of spite.

My spite won't stop me from sharing reads.
But I've no interest in defending myself, not in of itself at least.

Your logic is exactly the highlighted logic and it is bullshit.

The town is fully capable of changing the gamestate on their own. Fights with me be damned. I'm a facilitator for activity, sure, and have caused some bitter fights this game, yes. Those are not the death-spirals those who want to push mastina votes are pretending they are. Those are not things that kill the gamestate and even if they did--the conclusion from them is not to remove me. That is all lazy reasoning and explicitly, a breeding room for scum to hide because "voting mastina for the health of the game thread" is not stating an alignment read on me. It is not trying to resolve me. It is not trying to sort me.

It is lazy and it is either bullshit (from the town who should fucking know better) or scum (from those who see the convenience in the narrative).

The actual fact of the matter is that with the extra time granted by the frozen deadline and the benefit of said time and distance, there was a

surge

of productivity in the game.

professotic went from not wagoned, to top wagoned, to not wagoned again, in that time, from people not having them on their radar, putting them on the radar, and then later concluding (mostly at my behest) that they are not actually scum.

And there is a fairly young Radical Rat wagon there, less than 48 hours old, that has had a chance to form/develop--which these voices going back to the "mastina and the toxic gamestate" viewpoint are

actively shutting down

.

That's lazy from town and scum-motivated from scum.

Yes, there was fatigue.
Yes, there was a time where people ran out of time/energy.

But then, we took the time to step back and distance ourselves--and there was a surge of reinvigorated energy.

The narrative of mastina-is-hurting-the-town was, probably (if I am being at my most self-critical), true--

at a time

.
There WAS a time during this day phase where it was true.

It's not anymore, and pretending it is is, explicitly: not updating arguments to reflect the new gamestate.

That's not inherently scum, because lazy town be lazy.
But it is something that scum do because it's convenient and easy to hide behind.

I think the only way out of limbo is to look towards the future

For the record, not because of the vote on me but for the reasoning given--I think that unwnd has a pretty good chance of being scum here. (See also 2320 + 2319.)

The reasoning is either lazy-town or scum, but the reason I think scum over lazy town is, explicitly, because I don't believe that unwnd even as a replacement takes the lazy-town route.

What is bothering you.

I am however obligated to hunt scum and think your attitude/approach this game is you as one!

Yet you're still being apprehensive towards despite an olive branch
I don't understand

You have extended no olive branch. You've said a lot of words that amount to very little, used very lazy logic to hop onto my wagon, and have given little in the way of actual commitment in reads with solid reasons.

All from a slot I already thought was scum.

Your play solidified the scumread I already had.

I am not voting off someone who protects from a likely arsonist in this setup e.g firefighter (Radical Rat)

Yeah because they're your scumbuddy.

Again, I'm not gonna ask you to tone down on yourself. I would like however if you could somehow condense whatever message you're trying to relay. A lot of your additive phrasing really disorients me because often what will happen is either

1) I skim your post
2) I attempt to read your post, but it just tonally comes off as platitudes of the word salad kind

This is not your first game with me so don't fucking pretend you don't know what I am literally infamous for especially in every game that I get run up as when I'm town.
This isn't your first time seeing it from me, either. You LITERALLY saw my posts in Not Quite Normal Multiball.
You saw me in Draft Mafia.
You saw me in AI UPick.

(unwnd knowing but pushing this anyway is what makes it scum.)

This Rat wagon is soooo bad.

I'm not gonna claim that it's scum free, because obviously, it's not.

But it's still a town-driven wagon.

Radical Rat(8) Mastina, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, Yume, furtiveglance, Past Present Future, Bunnyonce, Ydrasse, Scarfmanship [E-1!]

I'm town. Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is town. Period. This is Klick as town. Yume is town. Period. This is unnegotiable. She is locktown of locktown, never scum here ever. Past Present Future is town. Period. This is all three being town. Never scum ever, locktown of locktown. Ydrasse is town. Save the Dragons was in his town meta and Ydrasse has continued to show herself to be town since replacing in.

So where are the sum?
The only

options

(not guarantees, just OPTIONS) are {furtiveglance, Bunnyonce, Scarfmanship}.
That's a MAXIMUM of three scum,

if

you believe that all three are scum.

For every name you see as town in those three, the number of possible scum on the wagon falls.

Suffice to say: no, not scumdriven. It's at least 5/8 town.

In contrast:

Mastina (7) T-Bone, Radical Rat, Maid Cafe, professotic, Mathblade, unwnd, Enchant

I believe T-Bone, professotic, and MathBlade to be town in here.

But only those 3.

There's four possible scum on the mastina wagon.
{Radical Rat, Maid Cafe, unwnd, Enchant}.

unwnd's replace-in radiates scum.

Are all four scum?

Not unless I'm a god gamer scumhunter. (I am not a god gamer scumhunter.)

But are all four town?

Fuck no! There's guaranteed scum in there.

I would say 2-3 of RR's scumteam on mastina wagon (actually this is mandatory--even if FA is a scumbuddy, then unless MMR is the third or RR had a bussing scumbuddy, there is a minimum of two RR-scumteam on the wagon);
~0-2 of opposite scumteam on the RR wagon.

(FA scum off the wagon so I don't think it's all scum on both.)

If I had to guess,
{Radical Rat, unwnd} as one scumteam;
{Frozen Angel, Scarfmanship} as the other.

If you write a post dedicated to why you think I'm scum I will do my best to respond

So in your head is mastina like this scum ringleader and the defenders are associated? I don't know if I can exactly see that, because it begs the question what happens if mastina goes over? All her defenders would be incriminated

(Btw I think it bears mentioning: everything unwnd is saying pretty much looks town, but I don't think it's actually town. I'm not convinced it's town, so much as I think that nothing unwnd has said so far is truly alignment-indicative one way or another.)

You were trying to look town without actually being town. (I believe the buzzword for this the kids use these days is LAMIST.)

I think the only way out of limbo is to look towards the future

For the record, I think that unwnd has a pretty good chance of being scum here. (See also 2320 + 2319.)

The reasoning is either lazy-town or scum, but the reason I think scum over lazy town is, explicitly, because I don't believe that unwnd even as a replacement takes the lazy-town route.

I want to reiterate,

The town is fully capable of changing the gamestate on their own. Fights with me be damned. Those are not the death-spirals those who want to push mastina votes are pretending they are.

That is all lazy reasoning and explicitly, a breeding room for scum to hide because "voting mastina for the health of the game thread" is not stating an alignment read on me. It is not trying to resolve me. It is not trying to sort me.

The actual fact of the matter is that with the extra time granted by the frozen deadline and the benefit of said time and distance, there was a

surge

of productivity in the game.

There is a fairly young Radical Rat wagon there, less than 48 hours old, that has had a chance to form/develop--which these voices going back to the "mastina and the toxic gamestate" viewpoint are

actively shutting down

.

The narrative of mastina-is-hurting-the-town was, probably (if I am being at my most self-critical), true--

at a time

.

It's not anymore, and pretending it is is, explicitly: not updating arguments to reflect the new gamestate.

These parts bear particular reiterating.

The gamestate did NOT stall.
The conclusions did NOT become inevitable.
The game did NOT circle back into the same.
The situation HAS changed, and evolved.

The narrative that the game is still the same as it was a week or two ago is, explicitly, not reflective of reality.

And the reason why 2277 is so scum is specifically BECAUSE of how lazy it is. It is an "easy" stance to take, that has zero consequences to it.

Tell me: what consequences are there to saying "eliminating mastina moves the gamestate forward"?

What is the downside of someone saying that?

It is something they can defend as "objectively true", as a genuine belief. It is something that many players have stated. It is something that has been repeated multiple times by multiple people.

So WHAT, I may ask, makes that a stance that is anything other than pure laziness?

It's lazy, in a scum-indicative way, specifically because unwnd is not a lazy town player. To say that my death helps the gamestate without an attempt to sort my alignment in good faith (engaging with RR who scumread me is not engaging in good faith btw), is in no way shape or form something that carries any negative repercussions.

There's no need to backtrack after my elimination. There's no need to take a stance that needs defending. There's no need to take a stance controversial. It is something that allows for a vote that anyone can cast. It is not, innately, inherently, a scum perspective, but regardless of alignment it is a

lazy

take. I'll reiterate this as well:

The only one with a fleshed out scumread on me is MathBlade.
The only three with nuanced scumreads on me are MathBlade, professotic, and T-Bone.
But nobody has

valid

reasons, and every. other. vote. on me has been lazy, with many of the lazy reasons being outright invalid, and every one of the lazy reads not being fleshed out and lacking nuance to the thought process.

Because while not everyone who voting me is scum, everyone who is voting me IS lazy.

You do not have a reason for scumreading me, unwnd. You have a reason for

voting

me--but it lacks the nuances and fleshed out nature of MathBlade, T-Bone, and professotic. (There's a damn good reason those are the only three consistently voting me that I have a townread on.)

I am however obligated to hunt scum and think your attitude/approach this game is you as one!

Your attitude/approach this game is, explicitly, lazy and uncreative.

You have no unique/original takes as a replacement in this game.
You have added nothing of note.
You have avoided taking stronger stances on most players.
You have avoided giving

reasons

for your reads on most players.
You have been giving the bare minimum, pretending to say a lot yet saying very little.

Which, yes, I know, ironic for me to be accusing you of it given my own issues.

But while it may be ironic and technically hypocritical--YOU do not have the same tendencies/history/style/justifications/etc. that I do.

I am still doing a lot. I'm saying a lot which could be said with far less, but it'd be disingenous as fuck to say I've said very little.

But for you, not so much. You are genuinely using a lot of words that form empty reasonless stances. You're accusing me of something you yourself are guilty of. If you think it's scum for me, then what does that say of YOU?

Yet you're still being apprehensive towards despite an olive branch
I don't understand

You have extended no olive branch. You've said a lot of words that amount to very little, used very lazy logic to hop onto my wagon, and have given little in the way of actual commitment in reads with solid reasons.

All from a slot I already thought was scum.

Your play solidified the scumread I already had.

And for Radja, it was

I've been keeping up on my phone, but the amount of players and hydra heads in this game make it hard for me to get much reads really.

This has a fairly good chance of being scum.

keeping up with nothing to say while doing scumplaining.

And on top of it all?

{Radja, Radical Rat} have had scumteam-indicative interactions the whole game, with you and your RR defense doubling down on those same interactions.

No but actually I agree with Mastina that Radja and Unwnd have both been likely wolf.
I also put higher standards to better players such as Unwnd.
I read them based on the content they provide and how they chose to provide it.

Exactly.

I would vote any of {Scarfmanship, unwnd, Radical Rat} right now happily.

{FA slot, Maid Cafe slot} both are likely scum, but since they're being replaced I realize not much point in voting them right now.

I don't really want to engage with it, to be honest. I get the feeling others don't either, which is why there isn't much feedback.

(For the record I think this is a scum perspective as well but I don't have the energy to delve into it right now.)

Your scumpicks tell nothing to me, even when I am one of them

Funny, YOUR scumpicks tell nothing to me, especially when I am one of them.

(Okay they tell me you're scum but you know what I mean.)

I find it highly unlikely and even to a comical degree that scum were off that wagon
I'd guess two at max

Funny, I'd guess a maximum of two on the wagon.

Bunnyonce (9) Enchant, Mastina, Mathblade, scarfmanship, professotic, T-Bone, Past Present Future, Yume, Radical Rat

Yume is town.
T-Bone is town.
Past Present Future are town.
professotic were likely killed and probably town.
MathBlade is town.
I am town.

So who's that leave as possible scum?

{Enchant, Scarfmanship, Radical Rat}.

That's it--and for every name in those three you townread, you have extra names off the wagon who must be scum. In contrast, to look at the names

off

the wagon...

Mastina (2) Maid Cafe, unwnd
professotic (1) MMR,
Ydrasse (1) furtiveglance
Not Voting (4) Frozen Angel, Bunnyonce, Ydrasse, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow,

Funny, the only players here who are definitely town are Bunnyonce, Ydrasse, and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow.

Which leaves a scum pool of {Maid Cafe, unwnd, MMR, furtiveglance, Frozen Angel} there.
I like those odds for finding scum!

Would vote any of the people off the wagon.

Where would the locktown pool be wrong? It's not.
So where are the scum?
In the remainder.

The remainder being {Scarfmanship, MMR, furtiveglance, Maid Cafe, Frozen Angel, unwnd, Radical Rat}.
My PoE isn't wrong until there's fewer names within it than there are scum. (As in, say, five names with six scum alive--at that point the PoE would be by necessity wrong.)
But like--we should

never

be eliminating outside that PoE, because that PoE is not wrong.

If people just let her repeat D1 I am going to afk

Well that works for me since with you as scum that makes it much easier for the town to win.

This game needs religion because I fucking pray that a semblance of transparency can be developed

This thread has plenty of transparency present, literally half the town is showing it.
Yume is showing it with her posting. That's self-evident.
T-Bone is showing it with his posting. That's self-evident.
Past Present Future have shown it with their posting. Nancy has made it self-evident.
MathBlade has shown it with his posting. That's self-evident.
For the

most

part I've shown it with mine (I'm currently holding out on a mechanical reason for MMR being scum and a play-based one, but otherwise am fully open). (I personally believe that to be self-evident too.)

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow I will argue has, too.

Heck, while I don't think he's town, even furtiveglance has been transparent. (Not every slot being transparent guarantees them being town, and not every slot lacking transparency is going to be in the PoE pool.)

So like.

That's at least seven slots of 15, literally half the game, which is transparent.
Six of which are guaranteed to be town.

Saying there hasn't been transparency is an outright lie.

What is telling to me is that with Bunny's death, a lot of people were
Yet it's not being discussed, It's not being considered
It's like it never happened

I have repeatedly stated that the Bunnyonce wagon was a compromise wagon.

You have repeatedly ignored me saying that because you don't want to acknowledge it for being what it is.

If you're gonna pretend that a compromise wagon that literally everyone on the wagon has admitted was exactly that,
Was something other than exactly that.

Then you're being disingenuous as fuck.

We sweeped them because scum had very little wriggle room and they simply got out-towned.

Guess what happened this game?

The actual town have out-towned the scum!

MathBlade Past Present Future, Yume, T-Bone, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, etc., have all shown themselves to be town in ways that leave the scum with no wiggle room. They are boxed in to a very narrow PoE.

This is probably in part of multiball, but if I have to state it the last multiball I played in we clean sweeped the scum and I got this stupid worthless badge underneath my name because of it.

Funny story, that.

My play this game is pretty damn close to my play that game--I've been pushed harder than I was pushed in that game, but aside from the emotional breakdown/meltdown that there are tangible rl reasons for, my play in that game was almost identical to my play in this game.

I wonder why?

And you know what else?

You're not playing anything like that game. Here you seem to be doing a lot and a lot and a lot of complaining over and over and over and over again.

Instead of actively trying to fix the issue,
Instead of trying to find a different solution,
Instead of trying to engage with the players that you would need to engage with on the stances you would need to,

You complain.
And complain.
And keep complaining.

I know what alignment I'd attribute that to!

I still think mastina is mafia honestly. her posts are irredeemably hollow

This game has been literally the furthest I could ever POSSIBLY get from hollow.

I literally have gone across the entire spectrum of emotions and styles and perspectives and viewpoints and approaches and what I think and where I am focusing and so on and so forth, this game.

Like--I literally have a two-page iso.

Find the last scumgame where I had a fucking two-page iso. It's a long way's back! (My scumgames this year have been ~80-100 posts. The longest was ~150, for a game that literally had 7 days and was really damn long.)
Wanna know how far back the last scumastina 2-page iso game was?
October 2017.

Five years ago

was the last time a scumastina had a two-page iso.

Because scumastina, who actually IS hollow, doesn't post worth shit. Even the games I "broke" this were in the 150s--not the nearly 300 and counting.

That ain't hollow--and claiming it is is an outright lie.

Dropped off the face of the earth when she no longer had to grandstand

I literally haven't had power for five fucking days, mate.

I'm running on generator power and have been since Friday at 9:30 pm.

I said this before.

I think my thread presence is plenty fine given that I literally am posting in situations where I could lose my ability to post at any time.

My posting frequency is almost the same right now, as it is normally--maybe a bit lower, sure, but like. The fact that my posting frequency is in the 80-90% range of my norm, when I LITERALLY AM IN A FIVE FUCKING DAY POWER OUTAGE AND COUNTING, probably indicates something!

(It's that unwnd is full of shit.)

Like half of you motherfuckers are saying 'unwnd is scum' but won't even vote me

It's

almost

like we have MMR having scumclaimed today and thus have a higher priority!

I voted Bunnyonce for lack of better ideas

Lol bullshit

You're acting like anything you're quoting is mutually exclusive with 3429.

Problem is, they aren't. They augment each other, not contradict each other.

I didn't have any better ideas than Bunnyonce.
Bunnyonce was a scumread.
I had Bunnyonce in the PoE.
Bunnyonce was a compromise wagon.

None of those statements contradict each other because they were all true.

Pretending otherwise is disingenous as fuck.

The kicker:

VOTE: Bunnyonce
Yeah this is scum.

Funny thing about that tho--you're trying to act like when I voted Bunnyonce in the "yeah this is scum", that was my final vote of the day.

Turns out you're lying about the narrative in the hopes nobody fact-checks. (Quite convenient that you left out the full posts and didn't quote the post numbers.)

If you're a town PR who refused to claim out of plain stubbornness the miselimination will be on you, and I will not be feeling any guilt for voting you out.

I think you're not making these long posts with the claimed intention of getting town to know your legacy better, but either to wear everyone down, mislead everyone or just for yourself.

VOTE: Bunnyonce

Yeah this is scum.

This betrays a scum mindset. "just for yourself" would, explicitly, be town.
"wear everyone down" would be nai.
The only of these which would be scum is "mislead everyone", but I am gradually proving that to not be true by following through on it, so like: the proof it's not is right there.

So admitting that it comes from a spot of town and trying to shift the blame on it to me when there's no reason to rush, is scum.

You know what happened after that?

REASONABLE CHANCE OF SCUM:
{Child of Fairies/Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce}

SCUM:
{Radja/unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}

VOTE: Scarfmanship

Yume:

Not sure where you're voting from memory, but if you join me here and these two are also there, we can at least go down swinging. It might not save me but it will make a statement for when I flip town. And force scum to react. Again.

literally every other player in the game has not pushed players as town OR scum--and it's in those zero-pushers, those lazy posters, that you'll find the scum.
And that list?
That's {MMR, furtiveglance, Enchant, Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, Frozen Angel}.

Obviously, that list is too large considering the number of scum in the game.
But that list should contain

all

the scum in the game. Imo, not most; ALL. (I understand if you think it's only most, tho, but you should agree that it's most.)

And from that list of nine, you need only get the three towniest players to have a list of scum form. It's my belief that the towniest of the lazy players are MMR/furvie/Enchant. Which by default, leaves the scum as Maid Cafe, Scarfmanship, Bunnyonce, unwnd, Radical Rat, and Frozen Angel.

IIIII should be in bed,
I should be in bed
Why am I postingggg
It's an hour past time,
I should be in beddd
But I wanna do this nowwwww.
VOTE: Bunnyonce
(this is mostly a Scarfmanship unvote)

Scarfmanship isn't locktowned for the post-claim-reveal posting but definitely is less of a priority for me imo. Not sure what that means for reads, need to take a look at things tomorrow with all the new info.

I agree with Scarf tho that T-Bone and Enchant both hard town.

THIS was the post where I actually voted Bunnyonce.

People really just be just saying shit and hoping nobody notices

Funny, what a coincidence, I just showed how you did precisely what you're saying in 3448, in my 3558, about your 3446!

For someone saying people are saying shit and hoping nobody notices,
You sure seem to have been saying shit and hoping nobody noticed!

I voted Bunnyonce for lack of better ideas.

I knew that there were people who had said Bunnyonce was south of null--so I knew that, given the looming deadline, it was a good chance for a wagon that might go through which I would be okay with.

This is like
A scumslip
And somehow people will ignore it

It's almost like you're the one inventing a narrative because there was no contradiction to be had!

I did vote Bunnyonce for lack of better ideas. I literally said my vote on Bunnyonce was mostly a Scarfmanship unvote. I was scumreading Bunnyonce for most of the game, Bunnyonce was in the PoE, I didn't want to wagon Scarfmanship, I knew other people were scumreading Bunnyonce, so I didn't have any better ideas for a compromise/deadline wagon that would go through.

It was a wagon with decent chances of going through on scum, but Bunnyonce was never my strongest scumread.

My strongest scumread has mostly been your slot, as it turns out!

And if not for the MMR claim on PPF I would be voting you!

You are intentionally being obtuse with how mastina is literally not remembering her own posts

But in this case, my memory serves me well enough where I didn't need to. What I've said is consistent with my posts and would be shown by actually reading them, especially with the context of the game.

You on the other hand are lying your ass off, so...

That said, unwnd here is way too over the top.

It's ALMOST like he wants to drown the thread out with noise from the fact that I've been making some pretty damn fucking good points that condemn him in particular.

Mastina doesn't engage with anyone but PPF/MathBlade/Yume (Her pocket)
Look at her posts outside of that and tell me if that looks like someone who is trying to get a read on others

Oh please do, that'd show this statement to be a lie!

I feel the need to reiterate that unwnd is saying things in the hopes nobody fact-checks them.

Not all of these actually explain my scumread properly, and I should group the same-points better, but too lazy, too close to bedtime, just wanted to have the evidence that as a matter of fact: I have explained.

Admittedly, not as much as I ought to.

But pretending I haven't is yet another case of unwnd hoping nobody fact-checks him by checking my iso.

[mastina]

Mastina wants to talk about narrative when her two biggest defenders are the highest posters by far lmao

It's

almost

like the players who know my play, know that I am town, and are being as vocal as they are because there's been a wagon on me both D1 and D2 in spite of this being the towniest game in my career!

Who'da thought that town players having the game not go their way would be vocal about it and try to get their way?

Almost like when you said the opposite, that you were lying your ass off!

[mastina]

MMR is town I'm p sure

For the record I AM having a bit of a hard time pinning down the exact teams here.

I lean {unwnd, Radical Rat}, but the third could be any of Firebringer/MMR/Scarfmanship, even furtive.

Finding which team MMR is on will help a lot because with MMR pinned team-wise, the others fall into place fairly easily as well.

Ultimately tho it's not too important yet, eliminating scum is eliminating scum.

[mastina]

Why do you think Mastina is scum?

I don't buy she believes what she is posting in terms of reads

My reads are what they are for damn good reason:

DOUBLE-LOCKTOWN (role+play):
{MathBlade, Yume, T-Bone, Enchant}
LOCKTOWN (play):
{Save the Dragons/Ydrasse, Past Present Future, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow}


REMAINDER:
{Maid Cafe/Toogeloo}

{Scarfmanship}

SCUMREAD:
{furtiveglance}
{MMR}
{Frozen Angel, unwnd, Radical Rat}

I have explained my Yume read repeatedly. She is town by play and by her role and how she handled it.
I have explained my MathBlade read repeatedly. He is town by claim and by play, with his conviction, activity, and how he has shown actual progression in thought.

I have explained my T-Bone read: the nuance behind his thoughts and why I think that's town, along with his end-of-D1 posting hard-townslipping him.

Enchant has the same end-of-D1 posting, although I admit the trust in this being his townplay is largely reliant on others who said so, but I

think

they're right anyway.

StD/Ydrasse I've explained before about both being in town meta but I admittedly haven't elaborated on that.

Past Present Future I've explained extensively.

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is half-conftown and they are both insanely town by play; people who know Bella says this is her as town (admittedly I need to take their word for that), and Klick is town for his posting through and through.

None of my townreads are wrong.

And that leaves seven names for six scum, a solid PoE.

In of itself, that would be enough to condemn the names within.

You know why?

Let me quote why!

It's not some secret ingredient that makes town better

the last multiball I played in we clean sweeped the scum

We sweeped them because scum had very little wriggle room and they simply got out-towned. Not in a spam post way more like a town had a clear directive and motivation. Things lined up in a way that was organic.

unwnd himself admitted that in a prior multiball game, a deadly townbloc was the key to making scum be locked out of the game.

Guess what we've got this game!
A deadly townbloc. Which with scum locked out of, means scum are going to get clean sweeped--the scum have little wriggle room.

Both the push on me, and the result on Past Present Future, are attempts to create wriggle room where there would otherwise be none, because they know they're getting out-towned otherwise.

Which is why unwnd is resorting to the very spam he derided.

[mastina]

She has all this effort for finding my crumbs but none to case MMR. :/

I mean--I did case MMR.

I haven't shared

all

my reasons--there's mechanical reasons and play-based reasons I haven't shared.

But I HAVE cased MMR, repeatedly.

MMR's role does not match the setup as being a town role.
MMR's role has contradictions in it which made it unlikely to be a real role.
MMR's claim has fundamental mechanical flaws to it.

MMR's play has not fit as holding that role.
MMR's target selection is beyond-suboptimal and is borderline gamethrowing as town.
MMR's claimed target makes sense as scum but not as town.

Scum may have incentive to kill PPF.
Scum are boxed in by the PoE and doing something to get out of it is needed.

MMR's claim is not a hard-guilty, giving them an out.
MMR's way of having played the claimed role/result does not fit a town perspective.

MMR is within the PoE, and the PoE is guaranteed to have all 6 scum, so MMR has a 6/7 chance of being scum.

Past Present Future is always town here so if there is a 1v1 between PPF and any other player (in this case, MMR), PPF wins and thus MMR is scum.

This is the reasons for MMR being scum--I haven't shared them all explaining them all but I've shared a fair amount of them and shown enough of them that if you're reading my posts in spite of unwnd's attempt to drown them out, you should know that I have DAMN good reason to think MMR is scum.

I'd only need one of these to have good reason to suspect MMR; I have ALL of them.

[mastina]

PPF is town therefore MMR is scum fake claiming.
It has no nuance to it

I mean that would be enough on its own.

I have explained why Past Present Future is always town here.

So with MMR claiming a soft guilty on PPF, I always vote MMR in the two.

But I have more reasons for voting MMR beyond that.

MMR was in the PoE.

I have mechanical reasons to doubt MMR's claim.
MMR's usage of the role does not match the three heads' worldview as town.

And I explained some of this in 3191 back here.
Not all, admittedly!

But I have explained at least some.

[mastina]

Also your play this game is different to the cafe. You were posting more about other players in that game, this time it's more about defending yourself.

Factually false--I do have posts defending myself but no fucking shit, I got to L-1 at one point, I'm gonna have

some

defense of myself. (In Cafe, did I get wagoned at all? I don't think I ever did.)

But my posts aren't "more about" myself--over half are giving reasons for my townreads and reasons for my scumreads and pointing out why the scum are scum for their posts.

If I had to guess, about 30-40% are defending myself, and 80-95% are scumhunting. (Why does that add up to above 100%? Because turns out that whenever scum attack me, me defending myself is

inherently

me also attacking scum, by pointing out why their posts are false and specifically, from scum.)

In the scumhunting posts, you can't say my posting has been different without being disingenuous as fuck.

[mastina]

i think all mastina has is townreads and i don't even want to bother reading into them to figure out why they exist but uwnd is 100% correct that all mastina wants to do is interact with those people.

To repeat:

It's not some secret ingredient that makes town better

the last multiball I played in we clean sweeped the scum

We sweeped them because scum had very little wriggle room and they simply got out-towned. Not in a spam post way more like a town had a clear directive and motivation. Things lined up in a way that was organic.

unwnd himself admitted that in a prior multiball game, a deadly townbloc was the key to making scum be locked out of the game.

Guess what we've got this game!
A deadly townbloc. Which with scum locked out of, means scum are going to get clean sweeped--the scum have little wriggle room.

Both the push on me, and the result on Past Present Future, are attempts to create wriggle room where there would otherwise be none, because they know they're getting out-towned otherwise.

Which is why unwnd is resorting to the very spam he derided.

unwnd himself literally admitted that the way town win in multiball is by forming a townbloc and locking scum out of it.

I have a VERY damn good townbloc.
Scum are locked out of it.

So yes, I am talking to the townbloc to make sure they see each other as town and are willing to work together--because by our powers combined, we basically can always force a scum elimination if we're on the same page and don't eliminate in the townbloc.

[mastina]

There is no guilty check, right? Someone clarify that for me.

The slot won't clarify.

Yes, MMR seems to be quite deliberately avoiding fullclaiming the specifics with an entire paraphrase of their role.

I wonder why?

[mastina]

I think they all mean different things, from my experience at least.

Not to me, and as I am the one who was thinking them, it is my opinion that matters, not yours.

There's a contradiction between actively scumreading a player and 'voting them for a lack of better votes' or whatever it is that you said.

I mean, sure.

But I wasn't actively scumreading.
I was scumreading.
Not actively scumreading.

I literally have already quoted the posts where I showed where Bunnyonce went the whole ringer in positions in my reads in that time period. From basically null to scum to less scum to more scum to "need to figure out", probably more.

My Bunnyonce read was always south of null, but always changed in strength, constantly and consistently.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, that read was "I dunno, in the PoE (south of null), but fucked if I know by how much", essentially. (I do have a post saying basically this, too lazy to track it down again tho.)

That's a scumread, but it ain't an active scumread.

I was not actively scumreading Bunnyonce.
I had a scumread on Bunnyonce.
I voted Bunnyonce as a compromise as the best option I had in the time crunch.

This is all obvious with--yaknow.
Basic fact checking.

But you're not interested in that, are you?

[mastina]

So I couldn't find the exact post, but she said something along the lines that I am a threat because I become hyperfocused on whoever I scumread, and that she doesn't want to be on the receiving end of that hyperfocus.

Can confirm this!

[mastina]

unwnd is scum for ten different reasons.

name one

1: nothingness posting on D1 that was meant to look town without being town
2: Lazy reasoning on D1 that was not actually pushing anything pro-town and is easy to defend when shown wrong (in a scum-indicative way)
3: Picked up posting just after the MMR claim result, distracting from it
4: Has lied repeatedly about my posts, relying on people to not fact-check
5: Is doing the very things he said scum would do to try and break up a townbloc, when a townbloc formed
6: is outside the townbloc, in the PoE.

This isn't a complete list, either. 3711 shows a lot more, which I need to summarize like the above but is there.

[mastina]

mastina i was talking about ur scumreads.

Yes, and so was I.

Why do you think Mastina is scum?

I don't buy she believes what she is posting in terms of reads

My reads are what they are for damn good reason:

DOUBLE-LOCKTOWN (role+play):
{MathBlade, Yume, T-Bone, Enchant}
LOCKTOWN (play):
{Save the Dragons/Ydrasse, Past Present Future, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow}


REMAINDER:
{Maid Cafe/Toogeloo}

{Scarfmanship}

SCUMREAD:
{furtiveglance}
{MMR}
{Frozen Angel, unwnd, Radical Rat}

I have explained my Yume read repeatedly. She is town by play and by her role and how she handled it.
I have explained my MathBlade read repeatedly. He is town by claim and by play, with his conviction, activity, and how he has shown actual progression in thought.

I have explained my T-Bone read: the nuance behind his thoughts and why I think that's town, along with his end-of-D1 posting hard-townslipping him.

Enchant has the same end-of-D1 posting, although I admit the trust in this being his townplay is largely reliant on others who said so, but I

think

they're right anyway.

StD/Ydrasse I've explained before about both being in town meta but I admittedly haven't elaborated on that.

Past Present Future I've explained extensively.

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is half-conftown and they are both insanely town by play; people who know Bella says this is her as town (admittedly I need to take their word for that), and Klick is town for his posting through and through.

None of my townreads are wrong.

And that leaves seven names for six scum, a solid PoE.

In of itself, that would be enough to condemn the names within.

You know why?

Let me quote why!

It's not some secret ingredient that makes town better

the last multiball I played in we clean sweeped the scum

We sweeped them because scum had very little wriggle room and they simply got out-towned. Not in a spam post way more like a town had a clear directive and motivation. Things lined up in a way that was organic.

unwnd himself admitted that in a prior multiball game, a deadly townbloc was the key to making scum be locked out of the game.

Guess what we've got this game!
A deadly townbloc. Which with scum locked out of, means scum are going to get clean sweeped--the scum have little wriggle room.

Both the push on me, and the result on Past Present Future, are attempts to create wriggle room where there would otherwise be none, because they know they're getting out-towned otherwise.

Which is why unwnd is resorting to the very spam he derided.

With my townbloc being what it is, there's seven slots for six scum.

That's a 6/7 chance of hitting scum.

In of itself, that would be reason enough; I wouldn't need more than that.

But of those seven names, I've explained my reads on all of them at various points.

[mastina]

you just explained a read in which is 90% role reasons and 10% just not in town block.
Why should anyone sheep that

Because role reasons are valid,
And not being in the townbloc is in of itself reason enough when being outside gives a 6/7 chance of being scum.

I have explained my scumreads;
I have explained my townreads;
With the PoE, just the explanation of the townreads would be enough;
With the explained scumreads, I wouldn't need to explain the townreads and why they lead to the PoE.

But I've done both so.

[mastina]

Each night, we target a player to see if they're VT or not. If they're not Town or our action doesn't go through, we get no result.

And you're claiming the name of your role is...what, exactly?

What is the name of your role?
As close as you can get paraphrasing to avoid the modkill, how is it formatted/phrased?

[mastina]

So much of PPF's iso this day is the same things repeated again and again,all of which are entirely self centered and do not read other players.
- mastina is town
- i would never kill prof
- people who oppose me are scum
- mathblade, please stop reminding people that there is a guilty on me

- i have a confirmable role as early as tomorrow*

*terms and conditions may apply

Compare this to how Titus apparently is going to make a reads list in the future, but nancy won't even post an inkling of information, because, uhhh, when nancy makes readslists nancy gets shit on? Why is getting shit on a concern to you when you are at death's door + you are already getting shit on? Why won't nancy even take the first step to making reads on other players when I asked who was scum on wagon? Why is nancy concerned about getting shit on if they have a role that is confirmable as early as tomorrow**?

** professional driver on closed course, do not attempt

Bunny knew they were dying soon and did their best to give all their information away, even though they had next to nothing. PPF is one of the top posters in the game and refuses to give anything away. I think the answer is that they know they are dying soon and don't want to give any information away. They will instead quote this post and make a snarky remark.

Funny thing about this.

You know what that is?

It's that not all players are the same.

There's no cookie cutter universal playbook.

What Bunnyonce did is reflective of Greeting and Aisa as players. That matches what you are saying you feel a town player should do.

But not all town players fit that mold.

And Nancy in particular does not. (As a general rule of thumb, players whose posting style is more reactive overall typically are the ones furthest from the "expected mold", because being reactive, their reactions mean they are reacting in ways that do not match the mindset assumed to be default, because the assumed default mindset is that town would be proactive, in spite of that not being universally true. Nancy is a perfect example of that.)

The things you mention are cookie cutter scumtells.
They are not Nancy scumtells.
In fact, quite the opposite!
They are some of the strongest possible towntells for Nancy to display.

[mastina]

People should really take a stance on MMR/PPF if they aren’t willing to elim so I know where people want to shoot at bare minimum
But we should be elimming one of them.

I mean, I'm voting MMR.

PPF is

always

town here. Period. End of discussion. They are

never

scum here, EVER.

MMR is almost always scum here. There's like a 5% world where they are town that was somehow roleblocked and managed to badly botch every aspect of their role from play to mechanics to target selection in spite of all three players being players who shouldn't do so.
But 95% of the time, they are scum and even in that 5% world where they

somehow

aren't, PPF is still town anyway.

[mastina]

I have neither the time nor energy to read through whatever nonsense has been filling the thread this time, but it really seems pretty straightforward to me.

MMR claimed a soft-guilty from Loyal, but apparently doesn't trust their own result.

PPF has claimed not ascetic, so the only other way the result isn't guilty from Town!MMR is if there was a roleblocker, which I find to be exceedingly unlikely given the multiple PR claims a roleblocker might target instead, and the existence of a roleblocker at all being unconfirmed.

So AT LEAST one of them HAS to be scum. SvS is possible, but TvT is such a remote possibility as to not be worth considering. I think MMR's claim is a dishonest attempt at influencing an elimination while avoiding responsibility for the flip, so I'm willing to bet MMR is scum here and want to flip them first, see what their role actually is, and judge PPF from there.

I do understand the desire to just follow the guilty instead, but thinking critically about this the claim just doesn't make sense, so I prefer that be settled first.

This, among others.

You know what else?

MMR deflected when I tried to get them to be explicit about this:

Each night, we target a player to see if they're VT or not. If they're not Town or our action doesn't go through, we get no result.

And you're claiming the name of your role is...what, exactly?

What is the name of your role?
As close as you can get paraphrasing to avoid the modkill, how is it formatted/phrased?

I had good reason for asking this!
Their 3730 was itself deflecting, but they've yet to answer 3734 in spite of having posted multiple times after.

Y'all know the ol' DGB saying, right?
Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes a lifetime.

What is so hard about stating the name of their role, and the closest possible paraphrase without getting modkilled?

It's almost like they have good reason to not answer that!

[mastina]

Yeah it does feel really sleazy from MMR to tack that on, and I am now saying we should kill only in MMR/PPF today (changed from PPF/mastina), and I think the most likely case is SvS different alignments, (probably ppf solar mmr lunar based on night actions) and i don't have anything else to say without repeating myself for 5 pages and the quiet people need to talk, so get to it.

Actually,

Scarfmanship:

you

are the one who needs to "get to it":

past Present Future (3) Toogeloo, Enchant, Scarfmanship [E-5]
MMR (3) Radical Rat, T-bone , Mastina [E-5]

Past Present Future has equal votes to MMR--with you willing to vote for either PPF or MMR.

If you really don't care which of the two you want to eliminate, why are you still on PPF and equaling the wagons, rather than MMR to tip the wagons in one direction?

[mastina]

What motivation does scum Loyal claim a failed action?

Well scum wouldn't actually be Loyal, but ultimately, it's very simple:

MMR is claiming a Loyal investigation on PPF which failed.
This is a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming.

If it is taken to be a claim of a guilty, though, then that means there is basically a guaranteed scum in MMR and PPF.

Past Present Future is never scum here, ever. EVER ever.

Ergo, if there is a scum in the two, it is MMR.

The "why they did it" doesn't need to be something we know--they did it.

MMR claimed a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming.
This happened, period.

There are many possible motivations behind it.

I have my

guesses

.
MMR felt boxed in;
MMR thought they could get away with it due to it being a soft-guilty and not eat a death afterwards from "oh well, guess we were roleblocked";
MMR genuinely believes PPF is scum for some reason but is wrong, and believes that an elimination on PPF will have no consequences since fakeclaiming a guilty on opposite scum still gets an opposite scum dead;
MMR knows PPF to be town, but has a role-related reason for wanting to eliminate PPF this day phase (notably, say the same thing which gave scum incentive to push MathBlade/Dingle Dangle Scarecrow yesterday).

But none of those I can really know.

What I do know is that Past Present Future cannot be scum, and therefore, MMR cannot have a real guilty on them.

And analyzing the claim and target and handling of it gives overwhelming reasons for MMR to be scum, with literally the

only

reason for MMR to be town being "scum wouldn't do this"--that's literally it.

Unless you wanna tell me something about MMR that isn't "scum wouldn't do this", that's the legit only reason they have to be town.
Their role itself looks like a scumclaim;
Their handling of it looks like a scumclaim;
Their target selection looks like a scumclaim;
Everything they are doing, looks like scum.

At some point, "scum wouldn't do this" becomes overwhelmed by the mountain of evidence demonstrating that, well. They did.

[mastina]

Also

Spoiler: for mastina

I am in fact capable of emulating my town meta as scum

Emulating, yes, but looking at your posts there, there's many things in this game that were absent from that game. You can emulate most of the package. You cannot emulate literally ALL of it.

It was good enough of an emulation at the time to work for the majority of the game against everyone who knew you--but it wasn't perfect, and given the benefit of hindsight, I can see the flaws there. (On that note, that specific game* I didn't remember how to read you anyway.) There are still signs of your scumgame there that I actually picked up early, but then discarded because of the similarities to your towngame you successfully emulated.

Those scumgame signs are absent here.

Spoiler: *

(Speaking of that game, that was the last game I had a three-page iso which I am well on the way to having here. I had very strong pushes on multiple town players that I believed were scum, which I later reevaluated into correct townreads. Even better, I got close to being eliminated at least twice. Sound familiar? It should. Turns out I am surprisingly static as a player in a lot of ways. )

[mastina]

[unwnd, furtive, Firebringer] contains one, possibly two scum is what I'm saying.

It's definitely three.

Probably not all of one scumteam, but there's no realm in which there's town in those names.

There's seven names for six scum, and a town in there would mean literally all of {MMR, Radical Rat, Toogeloo, Scarfmanship} would be, by necessity, scum.

You will obviously argue that you are not scum.

Tbh at this stage I think you're less scum than unwnd/Firebringer are, maybe even furtive (tho you are comparable to furtive in scum levels). So it's possible, albeit unlikely.
And MMR is just scum, regardless, just scum off my wagon.
But Toogeloo and Scarfmanship are the townier two names in that pool of seven. (One is still scum anyway, but they're at least townier compared to the other five.)

In terms of scum it goes something like,
unwnd = MMR > Firebringer > furtiveglance

>

Radical Rat > Scarfmanship > Toogeloo,
Most to least.


For the record, current teams look something like,

{MMR, ??, ??}

{??, ??, ??}
Radical Rat is not paired with MMR obviously.

Firebringer's slot (Frozen Angel) and Toogeloo's slot (Maid Cafe) both voted MMR early, but neither of them at times MMR was at risk.
Scarfmanship was voting MMR, so that makes it less likely for Scarf to be scum with MMR.

MMR voted unwnd's slot dangerously close to lethal, so MMR less likely scum with unwnd.

Which leaves the possible MMR scumbuddies as {furtiveglance, Firebringer, Toogeloo},
And the current other team as some combination of,
{Radical Rat, Scarfmanship, unwnd, the not-MMR-buddy in furtive/Toogeloo/Firebringer}.

furtiveglance pushed Scarfmanship when there was a risk of Scarfmanship being lethal, so less likely scum together.
furtiveglance pushed Radical Rat to L-1, so not scum with them.
Scarfmanship similarly so (identical link).

Which leads to furtive only being possible scum with Firebringer/Toogeloo/unwnd/MMR.

MMR + 2/3 of {Firebringer, Toogeloo, furtiveglance} on a team;
furtiveglance + 2/3 of {MMR, Firebringer, Toogeloo, unwnd} on a team.

Opposite team has 3 of
{Radical Rat, Scarfmanship, Firebringer/Toogeloo}.

I'm losing a lot of steam here, I think I can narrow it down better.

But loosely speaking, surface-level, I'd guess
{MMR, furtiveglance, Firebringer/Toogeloo};
{unwnd, Radical Rat-OR-Scarfmanship, Firebringer-or-Toogeloo}.

This surface-level analysis actually says there's one town in RR/Scarfmanship, and one team mostly known.
But like--I'm too tired to continue fact-checking (is 5:30, this wasn't meant to be a post where I dived the scumteams), so like. I might be missing combos, might be missing answers, etc. I'll figure it out later.

[mastina]

Hey I'm on page 153 and I am currently unable to play for circa 4-6 hours. (I can be around at around midnight tonight.)

But MMR's claim is definitely not a real one here.

MMR is NOT an Astrologer.

Based off of my role, I know they're bullshitting.

[mastina]

This is so bad it has to be scum, especially the first bit. It's not realistic compared to how town think, even town mastina.

Funny, I wasn't aware that attempting to solve the distribution of scumteams in a multiball was a non-town thing and unrealistic to be done.

Today I learned!

Maybe in future towngames I won't solve the game then!

Clearly not a thing actual town players do.



...Now I admit. I didn't finish it to my satisfaction. And the thoughts were tied more loosely than I'd prefer. I basically went into an ADHD mode where I started with one post and ended up with an entirely different post because the point I was originally making shifted into a different one that I couldn't finish.

But like.

A valid scumhunting tactic is, person by person, listing every possible pair (pair, not full team), as viable vs. not viable.
And then, removing the not viable ones, list every possible three-person team.

I didn't do that to the extent I was aiming for (I lost my lucidity too quickly), but I was using that same methodology.

I used some shortcuts--I left out every combo involving those that I am locktowning (because they are all town, natch).
And I didn't properly lay out every combo.

With seven players, there's, ah, lemme math it out fast,
{1, 2}
{1, 3}
{1, 4}
{1, 5}
{1, 6}
{1, 7}
{2, 3}
{2, 4}
{2, 5}
{2, 6}
{2, 7}
{3, 4}
{3, 5}
{3, 6}
{3, 7}
{4, 5}
{4, 6}
{4, 7}
{5, 6}
{5, 7}
{6, 7}

...21 possible two-man combos.
And after you remove the combos that are basically impossible, you can narrow down the resulting 3-man combos.

Now, I need to redo the list and do it better. The above formatting?

I need to do it as, well,
{MMR, unwnd}
{MMR, furtiveglance}
{MMR, Firebringer}
{MMR, Scarfmanship}
{MMR, Toogeloo}
{MMR, Radical Rat}
{unwnd, furtiveglance}
{unwind, Firebringer}
etc.

I can do that!

I just need to be more lucid than I was at 5:45 am last night, and more lucid than I am right now. (I'm as tired right now at 1:45 as I was at 5:45 last night. I dunno why.)

It would be useful to do.
I just need to find the time and lucidity to do it, and it's not a top priority because I don't need to find the exact scumteam, I just need to find a scum. Which I have.

[mastina]

If you really don't care which of the two you want to eliminate, why are you still on PPF and equaling the wagons, rather than MMR to tip the wagons in one direction?

'cause I think PPF is solar and solar acts tonight, now because interacting with you and PPF is the pinnacle of unproductive content,

PPF is not the pinnacle of unproductive content and saying they are is disingenuous as fuck.

Nancy is giving reads almost every post.

Those reads are constantly shifting.

Those reads are constantly changing.

But everyone voting Nancy for not giving reads is literally lying their asses off when they say she isn't giving them.

She has changed her vote how many times this day phase? Has to have been at least eight times.

Every time she changes her vote that post is accompanied with reasons why she feels her current vote is worth voting.

That ain't unproductive content. That is content that gives tangible things to interact with and engage with and leave a legacy with.

It's not organized all into one place.

But it ain't absent, either.

idgaf about meta, i haven't played on this site in something like 6 years.

And I have explained why PPF is town without using meta:

Nancy is literally the easiest player to read onsite. Genuinely, literally, the easiest.

Any player who has ever played with her before and doesn't insist meta is trash,
Should be townreading her--a lack thereof from any meta-user is genuinely a scumclaim.

It's hard for me to describe why she's town without using meta because I know the meta is right.

But, basically: a town Nancy is incredibly active (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly emotional (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly erratic (a scum Nancy, far less so), all over the place, not strategic, not focused, is basically ADHD manifested both the attention deficit part and also randomly hyperfocusing on things and ignoring things to focus on one specific thing which she locks onto. She has an energy. She knows she is town and this affects her worldview. She is extra prone to OMGUS behaviors, because with her knowing she is town, she has a FIRE on those scumreading her because in her eyes, there's no way that player could be genuinely scumreading her because clearly if they were town they wouldn't be scumreading her.

And THAT is the Nancy we have

this

game.

There's also the combined meta of them specifically in a hydra. Titus has a hydra town/scum meta, so does Nancy; they're both in their town hydra meta.

Of course there's pushback to them being scum--because they're self-evidently not.

Nancy has shown incredible thought progression and engagement in the game in a way that scum are incredibly unlikely to have.
Nancy has shown emotion that is incredibly unlikely to come from scum that know they are scum.
Nancy has shown a perspective of believing herself to be town and knowing it to be so obvious that any suspecting her are more likely to be scum.

While those are all augmented by meta, they are also generically town traits. Nancy has shown constant evolving thoughts, and given countless contributions, having given thoughts on basically every player in the game. She has never once been in anti-spew mode. She has never once avoided explaining her stance when directly posting about the player she holds that stance on. When engaging with a scumread she gives the reasons for the scumreads.

[mastina]

let it be known i faked results on titus once and it worked wonderfully for me

On that note:

Titus in Datisi's Cafe in response to a guilty on her made a fakeclaim, a fakeclaim she botched but a fakeclaim all the same.

Titus in this game is not responding to the guilty on her with a fakeclaim.

You can argue that Titus has learned, but I think the far more likely argument is simply that Titus isn't actually scum this game and doesn't feel pressured into fakeclaiming.

[mastina]

For someone who is “confirmable” you’re just not acting like it.

MathBlade can you seriously tell me that you have never seen a town player with a confirmable role ""not act like it"" by letting emotions take control?

Especially a notoriously emotional player?

'Cause let me tell you a secret:

Town players do not always act like robots.

Town players do not always act in the way you would expect them to act. (If someone wants to bring this up in regards to MMR I would like to note I have explained already why I don't believe MMR is a town player acting in an unexpected way.)

Town players do not share some universal outlook in how to treat their roles.

Especially not when the town player in question is Nancy who has one of the most "out there" styles in the game.


Have you never seen someone with a mason-like role out of spite refuse to confirm themselves?
'Cause I have.
Heck I've

been

that player.

You need to judge the players off of their emotional state, and what they are likely to do

in that emotional state

as town versus as scum.

As scum, Nancy WOULD act like a player with a confirmable role. She would rely on the role to clear her, because she would know her play wouldn't cut it. For an example of Nancy as scum doing this, I can point you to Nancy's iso in this game. She was "confirmable", and

acted that way

. Acting like she was confirmable was her best shot at not being eliminated as scum.

As town, Nancy doesn't act like a player with a confirmable role even when she has one. I can point to basically every Nancy towngame ever for this, because Nancy as town doesn't act the way a player with her role "should", because Nancy's viewpoints differ from those of most players and she is influenced by her emotional state.

[mastina]

I have been trying really hard to be cooperative here.

You and I have very different definitions of cooperative, mate.

(I should note that I am not cooperating with others, so don't take the above to mean "I mastina am cooperating, you MathBlade are not". I am well aware that I am not cooperating with others, but as someone who isn't cooperating with others I find myself qualified to say that you are also not cooperating with others. You're acting like me, just on the opposite side of me. So neither one of us is cooperating because we're both doing the same exact thing, just mostly in opposition to one another.)

[mastina]

But MMR has gone beyond simply botching a role claim. While I can believe town can botch a claim, MMR in general trying is to pretend it didn't happen. If I had a role result that implicated another player as scum I would not stop to follow through on it. I feel like everyone else on the playerlist would do so too. It feels like MMR is just hoping we stop talking about their claim. It goes beyond botching a claim. They've had so many days to clarify their claim, lay everything out clearly, and try to lead an elimination based on it and they haven't.

So I think MMR is the correct vote today.

This.

[mastina]

But MMR has gone beyond simply botching a role claim. While I can believe town can botch a claim, MMR in general trying is to pretend it didn't happen. If I had a role result that implicated another player as scum I would not stop to follow through on it. I feel like everyone else on the playerlist would do so too. It feels like MMR is just hoping we stop talking about their claim. It goes beyond botching a claim. They've had so many days to clarify their claim, lay everything out clearly, and try to lead an elimination based on it and they haven't.

So I think MMR is the correct vote today.

This.

And I think enough time has passed for me to reveal another play-based reason for MMR to be scum:

MMR contains Roden.

In Datisi's Cafe, Roden on D2 claimed, unprompted, and I pushed Roden as scum for both play AND mechanics for his claim, eventually getting him mislimmed on that day.

It is Day Two, the same day as the day Roden got mislimmed.
MMR claimed unprompted, the same casual way that Roden claimed unprompted in Datisi's Cafe.
I have pushed MMR as scum for both play AND mechanics for their claim.
MMR is the main wagon.

So tell me.

Why has Roden given

absolutely NO

acknowledgement to the parallel?

Why isn't Roden saying something like "not again..."?
Why isn't Roden upset at me?
Why isn't Roden commenting on the similarity?
Why isn't Roden frustrated?
Why isn't Roden angry?
Why isn't Roden feeling defeated?
Why isn't Roden stating apathy, actually specifying "I don't care anymore"?
Why isn't Roden spiteful?

Why is Roden not acting at all like he was in Datisi's Cafe in similar circumstances?

To me, the answer is obvious--the reason Roden isn't doing any of those things in this game is because in this game, he's actually scum.

[mastina]

But MMR has gone beyond simply botching a role claim. While I can believe town can botch a claim, MMR in general trying is to pretend it didn't happen. If I had a role result that implicated another player as scum I would not stop to follow through on it. I feel like everyone else on the playerlist would do so too. It feels like MMR is just hoping we stop talking about their claim. It goes beyond botching a claim. They've had so many days to clarify their claim, lay everything out clearly, and try to lead an elimination based on it and they haven't.

So I think MMR is the correct vote today.

This.

And I think enough time has passed for me to reveal another play-based reason for MMR to be scum:

MMR contains Roden.

In Datisi's Cafe, Roden on D2 claimed, unprompted, and I pushed Roden as scum for both play AND mechanics for his claim, eventually getting him mislimmed on that day.

It is Day Two, the same day as the day Roden got mislimmed.
MMR claimed unprompted, the same casual way that Roden claimed unprompted in Datisi's Cafe.
I have pushed MMR as scum for both play AND mechanics for their claim.
MMR is the main wagon.

So tell me.

Why has Roden given

absolutely NO

acknowledgement to the parallel?

Why isn't Roden saying something like "not again..."?
Why isn't Roden upset at me?
Why isn't Roden commenting on the similarity?
Why isn't Roden frustrated?
Why isn't Roden angry?
Why isn't Roden feeling defeated?
Why isn't Roden stating apathy, actually specifying "I don't care anymore"?
Why isn't Roden spiteful?

Why is Roden not acting at all like he was in Datisi's Cafe in similar circumstances?

To me, the answer is obvious--the reason Roden isn't doing any of those things in this game is because in this game, he's actually scum.

Pagetopping this.

[mastina]

IF MMR is scum then MMR is more likely lunar scum or wants to be elimmed. That this is a deliberate ploy. One that a scum team of them + buddies has to agree on,

For saying you disagree with my post, you sure seem to be proving my post to be true.

analyzing the claim and target and handling of it gives overwhelming reasons for MMR to be scum, with literally the

only

reason for MMR to be town being "scum wouldn't do this"--that's literally it.

Unless you wanna tell me something about MMR that isn't "scum wouldn't do this", that's the legit only reason they have to be town.

At some point, "scum wouldn't do this" becomes overwhelmed by the mountain of evidence demonstrating that, well. They did.

You're literally arguing in 3842 "MMR wouldn't do this".

That's your argument.

That's it.

"MMR isn't a good elimination because scum-MMR wouldn't have reason to claim a guilty on someone who would flip town".

That is the

only

argument being made in MMR's defense.

Prove me wrong.

Point to a SINGLE point in MMR's defense that is not that exact same argument, in different wording.

You can't, because the defense of MMR is literally that argument and that argument alone.

Meanwhile, there's BOATLOADS of reasons for Past Present Future to be town,
And there's BOATLOADS of reasons for MMR to be scum, both by play and by role.

The reasons for Past Present Future to be town are many. Not just one point said repeatedly. I've demonstrated why they are town from numerous different angles, and provided reasons for why scum would want to push them, even guilty them.

The reasons for MMR to be scum are many. Not just one mechanical point, or one play point. I've demonstrated what those points are numerous different times, albeit admittedly never covering them all in detail. While I don't know the

details

behind why they have claimed their false guilty on a player I know to be town, I have given numerous different theories that can potentially explain it. I don't know which of them is the truth, but I can still give them because there are numerous different possible explanations for it, not just a single shallow one.

Half the players voting PPF have done so explicitly under the belief that PPF and MMR are both scum--but what they fail to consider is that their point is just as valid if MMR

believes

PPF to be scum...and is just wrong.

What differentiates a scum MMR claiming a result on a scum PPF, from a scum MMR claiming a result on PPF when they

think

PPF is scum?

The two are effectively identical. MMR as scum would have a disloyal role always work and a loyal role always not work. That means that MMR as scum would have no possible role result on PPF that would actually tell MMR that PPF is definitively scum.

In other words,

It is impossible for a scum MMR to actually

know

PPF is scum

.

So with it being impossible for a scum MMR to actually KNOW PPF is scum,
It then becomes quite likely that MMR genuinely believes PPF to be scum...and is just wrong.

[mastina]

PPF on the other hand is more likely Solar along with Mastina if my theory holds.

For the record, if we eliminate Past Present Future and they flip town and the mod reveals that PPF was either bathed in sunlight or bathed in moonlight,

1: Don't you fucking DARE try to say I was scum TMI'ing when I fucking told you so,

2: And boy oh boy don't you fucking DARE say I have no right to say I fucking told you so.

Because I know my shit.

I don't have any role-related reasons to know my shit (except what I claimed, obv).

But I know my shit. So I am fucking telling you so.

Past Present Future is never flipping scum here, ever. They are town, they will flip town.

If they have a mechanical reason to be eliminated today, then MMR's actions automatically have an instant justification for having been what they were.

Just sayin'.

[mastina]

There is no guilty check, right? Someone clarify that for me.

The slot won't clarify.

Yes, MMR seems to be quite deliberately avoiding fullclaiming the specifics with an entire paraphrase of their role.
I wonder why?

I retain that MMR deliberately avoiding the fullclaim for as long as they did and spreading out the details which gradually changed,
Is not town.

MMR has gone beyond simply botching a role claim. While I can believe town can botch a claim, MMR in general trying is to pretend it didn't happen. If I had a role result that implicated another player as scum I would not stop to follow through on it. I feel like everyone else on the playerlist would do so too. It feels like MMR is just hoping we stop talking about their claim. It goes beyond botching a claim. They've had so many days to clarify their claim, lay everything out clearly, and try to lead an elimination based on it and they haven't.

Basically for this.


But to cover the claim itself in its many pieces:

We're

Town Astrologer

.

Each night, we target a player to see if they're VT or not. If they're not Town or our action doesn't go through, we get no result.
Though, I did forget one thing.
We're informed that at least one of the scum has a role almost identical to us.

Why you didn't say you was informed

I made up the Informed part based off information inferred in our role PM.
I thought that claiming Informed would make people pay more attention to it and think about it if we got flipped.

It's because Loyal is embedded in the role.

I can check somebody tonight.

The handling of the claim is largely contradictory with the details of the claim always changing.

What was the inferred information from their claim that made them "know" about a scum counterpart to their role?

They never said.
Their explanation for their Loyal section of the role doesn't fit, either.
And

why is there a role that has two different parts that do the same thing?

(Loyal is a Cop, Neapolitan is a Cop.)

But, to explain why their role is specifically not a Town Astrologer:
The (loose, obv, again not exact as to avoid modkill) formatting of my role PM is,

TOWN (MODIFIER--in my case, 'limited') ASTROLOGER
Description of which night phase, singular, I can act. Then, my power, attunement.
The information about scum attunements matching their respective sun/moon factions, with the details of it also including town.
The

modified

section of my role (in this case, 'limited'), specifying my limitations (some players I can't target, can't target more than once, will be informed when this happens).

And on N1, I received the feedback that I couldn't target either MathBlade or Dingle Dangle Scarecrow with my ability.


MMR's formatting

does not match mine

.
Piecing together MMR's broken-up claim, THEIR formatting is, apparently:
TOWN ASTROLOGER
A standard role PM which isn't modified based off of the game (and allows for targeting any night phase rather than singular). The power is a standard power (itself something I find unlikely)--but has the

limited modifiers in the wrong place

. MMR is claiming the

wrong formatting

for their role PM.
The information is not presented in their claim at all.

What information implies a scum counterpart from their claim?

It doesn't fit.

And there's no demonstration of it in their play, either.
Generally speaking, for all of D1, why didn't MMR breadcrumb their role or indicate who they were going to target?

Why didn't MMR hunt for the alleged similar role "almost identical" to theirs? If there were a scum role identical to theirs,

why wasn't MMR suspicious of Yume's investigative claim?
Why didn't MMR check on who the second investigative claim on D1 was?

Why did MMR not react to the investigative claims?

POV: We will let Yume check mastina and Yume claims "I am RBed by mafia, mafia doesn't want me to clean mastina" and we will repeat it again and again, before everyone die.
I predicted future. Now let's give mastina one day and look at my oracle powers.

I somewhat disagree with this.
We're risking too much on hoping that Yume will follow through her plan.
However, I don't know Yume well so if somebody who does says that Yume can be trusted, I'm OK with the plan.
Though, I think that it would be good for us to at least have an elimination so that our solving can be aided.
-Rubella

Why did MMR not target Yume, the claimed investigative?

Why did MMR not target me, the player Yume said she was going to target?

UNVOTE:
I'm going to look over all this with fresh eyes tomorrow. MathBlade's role apparently being complementary takes away from my suspicion it's a scum investigative, though I do still think mastina's play has been scummy... I don't know, but I'm not going to figure any of it out without sleep.

Wait.
Is there another Investigative now?
Both me and Mumps are really behind.
Measles also seems kinda busy so I have no idea what happened since my V/LA began and what Math told me yesterday.
-Rubella

This post shows that MMR was aware of an investigative claim on D1--are you telling me that as an investigative role, who knew that there was an investigative role claimed, all three heads didn't check who it was and what the role was?

They already knew that Yume was claiming some sort of investigative role--I literally just quoted them demonstrating knowledge and the quoted post here reaffirms it. They said "another Investigative", with the implication of Yume being the prior one.

Why didn't they look into it more? They literally knew Yume claimed an investigative. As an investigative, why didn't they try to confirm Yume by targeting Yume's target, or targeting Yume?
They specified doubt on Yume's claim here in 1810, but didn't think to use their own role to help confirm?
And in 2891 (which is obviously after 1810), they clearly were acknowledging Yume's claim.

So they have an investigative role or so they claim, and see Yume has an investigative role, and with their own investigative role...they don't interact with Yume at all? They don't try to confirm her, or coordinate with her, they do nothing? No feedback, no hints, nothing?

In fact, I have a bit of a theory.
Yume was publicly a claimed investigative role on D1.

Also, PPF lied about selling apples.

Really?
We tried to investigate them last Night and we received no result.
Measles think that this could be due to our Loyal modifier.

Yume, in 3014, specified a role that hinted that Yume had targeted Past Present Future N1.

I have a theory based off of that.

MMR knew that Yume had claimed an investigative role D1;
Yume hinted at having some form of damning result on PPF in 3014;
MMR, seeing this, made an erroneous assumption that Yume targeted PPF N1;

My theory is that MMR made a faked result on PPF thinking that Yume would back them up, not realizing Yume's actual target was me.

But back to that same post with more:

Also, PPF lied about selling apples.

Really?
We tried to investigate them last Night and we received no result.
Measles think that this could be due to our Loyal modifier.
-Rubella

Does this look like town with a guilty?

Roden and Ircher both saw me, as an investigative who got a No Result, bait scum into a bad claim in Datisi's cafe.
Roden and Ircher both saw Ydrasse, as an investigative with a non-damning result, bait scum into a bad claim in Datisi's cafe.

Are you telling me both of them are going to not try and do the same? You can argue that this was them doing so, but that is never a claim which gets Past Present Future to claim a bad claim.

Why not claim an unspecified guilty?
Why not say you have role-related reasons for wanting PPF to claim?
Why not vote the guilty result?

If there was confusion about the result and wondering if they were roleblocked, why did they not start the day saying they were roleblocked?
If they were waiting to see if town caused the failure, why didn't they start by asking about that?

we're a Loyal Rolestopper.

If anything, this claim is acknowledging that there is a perfectly logical explanation for the failed result. They, briefly, fakeclaimed a role, which would be a role that actually could explain their result.

It feels like it was done to bait out a protection claim on PPF, not to bait out a scumclaim from PPF.

we're a Loyal Rolestopper.

Why would you protect us over claimed prs?

Mumps and Measles wanted to see your reaction.
We're actually Loyal Neapolitan.
I guess that your reaction means that you're Town.
-Rubella

This being a scum post has already been covered, but to reiterate:
A Loyal Investigative with a No Result does not think that the reaction of PPF means PPF is town, because their investigative implicates the slot to be scum.

If MMR's claim were a gambit, if MMR's claim were a fakeclaim, then PPF reacting that way would be town.
But with MMR claiming to be Loyal with an actual No Result on PPF, this reaction should mean nothing to them.
Saying that PPF could be an unclaimed ascetic doesn't fit, either, because if PPF were an unclaimed ascetic, they would have claimed it in the initial result from first Yume and then later MMR.

And if MMR wanted to confirm that they weren't roleblocked, again,

why did they not start the day asking if they had been?

If they thought that they were roleblocked, then they should have specified it.
They should've known PPF wasn't ascetic from PPF's earlier interaction with Yume.

MMR’s claimed target doesn’t make sense either.
Can you explain why PPF?

Mumps and Measles wanted to investigate PPF after it was confirmed that your role was related to the scum.
Don't ask me about why they decided to do that.
-Rubella

I wonder why we shouldn't ask an investigative role why they investigated who they did?

Could it perhaps be because they don't actually have any town reasoning for it?

Also what makes you think my role is “confirmed” to have something to do with alignments?

Meg's announcement that you would've vanillaised the Solar Cult if you had been eliminated in the place of Bunny.
PPF's D1 push means that it's unlikely that they're Solar.
I know this doesn't make them conftown or confscum.
-Rubella

Why would you want to investigate someone who you suspect to not be from one faction?
This doesn't track because it makes no sense.

If you want to target someone not from one faction to confirm they are not from either, then PPF isn't who you want to target--that would be MathBlade or Dingle Dangle Scarecrow.
Basically, MathBlade/DDS are

better versions

of a PPF investigation

by their own logic

.
They suspected that it was unlikely PPF were Solar--
But they KNEW that MathBlade could not be Lunar.
They KNEW that Dingle Dangle Scarecrow could not be Solar.

If they wanted to target someone unlikely to be from one faction, why go for unlikely rather than absolutely guaranteed?

That makes no sense.

If they wanted to target someone who wasn't likely to be a specific faction, then by their own logic of thinking PPF wasn't Solar they shouldn't have targeted PPF.

There is no logical thought which leads to them targeting PPF under the belief that PPF isn't Solar.
If they wanted to target someone they had no read on a faction for, then they shouldn't have targeted PPF due to thinking PPF wasn't Solar;
If they wanted to target someone who they had a read on them not being a faction, then they should've targeted MathBlade or DDS.

Their own logical thought process for a target doesn't add up and is internally inconsistent.

And 3339 demonstrates not targeting with the Neapolitan part of their role at all.

As to why PPF, it's because it is the sensible choice. Like if I was being selfish and thinking only in terms of my own reads, I would check MathBlade because he has a very high chance of being scum, but checking MathBlade is not the practical choice. He is not practical because if he is scum, we don't gain any new insight. Past Present Future on the other hand is 1) unlikely to get killed if town 2) hard to scum read as either alignment 3) a constant presence in the thread. Understanding their alignment allows us to understand the overall game state.

And this post, much later down the line, uses entirely different logic to justify it. They used one explanation later and when that explanation was shown to be faulty, changed the explanation later.

All of that, aside from what I already said:

Play can be chalked up to mistake from ONE player, but from THREE players, ESPECIALLY mechanics-oriented players, it is so borderline unacceptable that it is genuinely an instant elimination.

Let's start with the Neapolitan half. A Neapolitan is at its strongest by targeting VTs, to generate hard-innocents. And since we have VTs in the game per the D1 flip, that means that MMR would know that they should try to get innocent results. The D1 elimination proved that there are VTs, but you know what also happened just before the elimination? ...Not one, but TWO different players effectively hard-townslipped a claim which essentially hinted at being VTs. Scarfmanship spelled this out the night I claimed, that T-Bone and Enchant believing that their role PMs gave no hint to alignment basically hard-spewed them as VTs. A Neapolitan, with not one but TWO players that essentially accidentally hardclaimed VT, chose to investigate NEITHER if them???

I can get some random player making that mistake. But Ircher is, infamously, a mechanics-oriented player. Do you think Ircher with a Neapolitan sees two players who basically hardclaimed VT and decides to investigate neither of them? RH9 from my understanding is ALSO mechanics-oriented. I've never actually played with him to verify, but seeing how he's literally THE most prolific user in mafia discussion, discussing the mechanics of roles, I'm pretty damn certain that he is a mechanics-oriented player, and I don’t buy him making the Mistake, either. Roden is the only one who could, but even RODEN is no slouch mechanically.
And you want to tell me that not one, not two, but THREE different holders of the role which is mechanics oriented made a night action choice that is woefully suboptimal? It's beyond improbable. It's not like Neapolitan is a gimmicky role. It's one of the most common Normal Game roles in existence. So all three of them should know the basic theory of the value of a hard-innocent.

Beyond that? PPF was town enough to be a nightkill option--you don’t try to target players who could be the nightkill, you specifically try to target those who will not be. This doesn’t contradict the above, either since neither T-Bone nor Enchant were likely nightkills ESPECIALLY given being vanilla. Even if they thought ONE VT would be nightkilled, they would know at least one would live--and let's be real, mo scum kills Enchant ever. So they could safely target Enchant.

PPF was more town than scum yesterday. So being so, which alignment has more reason to effectively rolecop them? (Neapolitan is a hybrid between Cop and Rolecop.) It ain't town.

Scum had more reasons to rolecop PPF than town did.

AND ONE MORE THING--MathBlade was a PR claim, but why not target Dingle Dangle Scarecrow? MY being unable to target either makes sense (it'd potentially hard-clear them), but MMR's role has no such justification--why not check DDS???
This all is play. You can attempt to write it off as a display of absolute sheer incompetence if you'd like, a collective brain shutdown from all three players who should know better. (Roden literally got mislimmed in part thanks to targeting a PPF like player N1. So to make the same sort of mistake twice is even less likely.)

But then we get into the actual role part. Namely, how the two halves are highly redundant. ANY result that is successful is an automatic innocent, thanks to Loyal. Neapolitan is a role which generates innocents in of itself, by targeting VTs. By stacking the two, it becomes effectively a more powerful cop, NOT ONLY learning if someone is town, BUT ALSO if they're a VT or a PR. If it were just Neapolitan I'd believe it. If it were just Loyal with a confirming result of literally any sort, I would believe it. (Checker, Motion Detector, etc. Literally any role which gets feedback at the end of a night, which is not already innately one of the strongest investigative roles in the game the way Neapolitan is.)

I don’t believe that the town has a Loyal Neapolitan ON TOP OF the revealing mechanic shown at the end of D1 ON TOP OF my role, which theirs is basically a stronger version of. My role just checks for attunement, which is a possible indicator of alignment and potentially reveals role or VTs;
Theirs gets outright confirmation of alignment AND role. They're literally claiming a stronger version of my role, which was even able to act a night sooner than me! (BTW free piece of NRG advice: the NRG tends to balance odd/even night roles by putting the weaker one FIRST, not second. Not always, but as a way to keep the power down.)

And then there are two other reasons for why I think that's a mechical scumclaim, but I'll finish with a final non-mechanics one:
I don’t buy MMR being blocked by scum; I don’t buy PPF being an unclaimed ascetic; MMR were in the PoE already for scum; PPF are town enough to be basically conftown. If they're trying to force a noncommittal guilty where after PPF flip town they go "Oh I guess we were roleblocked", well, I call bullshit. So, because PPF is never scum here, if there WAS a 1v1, by default, MMR would be the scum within.

MMR is claiming they can act

every night

with a role

stronger than a full Cop

effectively a powered up version of a Rolecop that essentially gets the full role PM including alignment.

And

scum had more reason to investigate PPF than town did

.

And then you get to this.

I don't understand MMR's motivation.

I have a theory!

As the sun begins to set, a ray of sunlight catches onto Mathblade and surrounds him. Likewise, as the moon rises the moonlight surrounds Dingle Dangle Scarecrow. They are surrounded by radiant and ethereal light. Mathblade is blessed by the solar god Helius. He cannot be aligned with the Lunar Cult. If he was eliminated during this phase, the Solar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Solar Cult was the only group with access to this information.
Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is blessed by the lunar goddess Luna. They cannot be aligned with the Solar Cult. If they were eliminated during this phase, the Lunar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Lunar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

I don't think that players being bathed in moonlight/sunlight was a mechanic specific to D1. Now, the

details

might differ. Maybe instead of a nerf to the other scumteam, one specific elimination gives a buff to the scumteam. Maybe instead of knowing which player gives the enemy team a debuff, they know which player would give them a debuff. Maybe it's still a debuff, but somehow different from a vanillaize of the scumteam.

But my theory is the

mechanic

is still present. As in, every day, until some sort of condition is met, two players are revealed with one revealed as not-sun and the other not-moon. Those conditions could be anything from
-A scum player is eliminated,
-Enough phases of the game have passed (with it having been a set number, say, 2-4 reveals total),
-A player that was bathed in sun/moonlight is eliminated,
Who knows exactly. But I don't think that it was just a D1 thing, just MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow and nobody else for the rest of the game. Obviously, that theory is something which will either be proven to have merit or be proven wrong once this day phase ends. So no way of knowing. But if my theory is right, you know what that gives scum incentive to do? Potentially--eliminate a target.

If Past Present Future are bathed in light right now, that gives a motive for MMR to eliminate them,

especially

given the SOFT nature of the guilty. They're not claiming cop with a guilty where after a townflip from PPF we always kill MMR. They're claiming a soft guilty, one which is easy to talk their way out of when PPF flip town. The reward from an elimination on a bathed target would be worth the risk of

potentially

(but not guaranteed) being eliminated after, would it not?
That gives incentive, that gives motive.

Some of mastina's posts today have been really awful, like proposing there's a second divine light event.

I don't see what's so bad about it. The claim is terrible, and the target selection even worse, and the handling of it today even worse. It looks scum on every level. PPF is guaranteed to be town, here.
So the scenarios are: MMR is town who had their result fail, MMR is scum who thinks PPF is scum, MMR is scum who claimed a guilty on PPF in spite of PPF being clearly town.
The first I have laid out my reasons for finding beyond unlikely. The claim doesn't fit as town and the play doesn't fit as town. The second

could

happen, but MMR would know they were in trouble if PPF didn't flip scum. So, the third fits the best.
We know MMR is claiming effectively a guilty on PPF. And PPF is town. So the reason boils down to, we know it happened--why? The reasons why it fits for town-MMR are sketchy-at-best. The reasons why it fits for scum-MMR are there, with the only thing missing being the motive. What could make claiming a guilty on town worth it for MMR?
We know that it happened; figuring out the why is secondary because it happened, the reasons we can guess but it happened. And the best guess I have for the why is that there is more than one reveal.

My role PM is worded in a way that makes it possible to just have the one reveal, but loosely implies more than one. Some EVENTS, plural for events. The event D1 caused me to be unable to target MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow. EVENTS implies that there's more than just the D1 reveal. Like, sayyyy...the mechanic being applicable to more than D1?
Is it guaranteed? Why no, no it's not! That's why it's a theory! (A game theory!) But it's a

good

one because it helps explain the play we know has happened.

And I think that mastina slipped having a similar role.
-Rubella

I claimed a similar role on D1 and literally not a single member of your hydra commented on it--which is one of the reasons I think your claim is bullshit.
Me claiming was a VERY BIG THING at the end of the day. It literally was the entire reason there was a scramble in the gamestate. It spewed T-Bone as town, it spewed Enchant as town, it got Scarfmanship off the voting list, it is why Bunnyonce was the player we ended up wagoning.
And you're trying to claim none of you saw it at all and thought to comment on it at all?

To reiterate--they

quite literally said

"wait what, there's another Investigative claim???". I just showed 2891--where they acknowledge there has been another investigative claim.

Why did they not check to see what that investigative role was?

MMR claimed a soft-guilty from Loyal, but apparently doesn't trust their own result.
PPF has claimed not ascetic, so the only other way the result isn't guilty from Town!MMR is if there was a roleblocker, which I find to be exceedingly unlikely given the multiple PR claims a roleblocker might target instead, and the existence of a roleblocker at all being unconfirmed.

So AT LEAST one of them HAS to be scum. SvS is possible, but TvT is such a remote possibility as to not be worth considering. I think MMR's claim is a dishonest attempt at influencing an elimination while avoiding responsibility for the flip, so I'm willing to bet MMR is scum here and want to flip them first, see what their role actually is, and judge PPF from there.

I do understand the desire to just follow the guilty instead, but thinking critically about this the claim just doesn't make sense, so I prefer that be settled first.

In the event MMR flips town you agreed that MMR wouldn’t be roleblocked so why would they get no result?

I agreed it wasn't likely they got roleblocked. I think it is more likely that MMR is scum than town who got roleblocked. But I'm never wrong on Past Present Future being town and thus their result

cannot

be a guilty. The options are ONLY MMR-roleblocked-town OR MMR-scum.
I believe MMR-scum, but if MMR was town then they were roleblocked in spite of me thinking they wouldn't be. I don't think MMR was roleblocked which is one of the reasons I think MMR is scum! But in the event MMR did flip town, the only possibility is MMR was roleblocked because PPF is never scum here, ever.

I have explained why Past Present Future is always town here. So with MMR claiming a soft guilty on PPF, I always vote MMR in the two. But I have more reasons for voting MMR beyond that. MMR was in the PoE. I have mechanical reasons to doubt MMR's claim. MMR's usage of the role does not match the three heads' worldview as town. And I explained some of this in 3191 back here.

What motivation does scum Loyal claim a failed action?

Well scum wouldn't actually be Loyal, but ultimately, it's very simple:
MMR is claiming a Loyal investigation on PPF which failed. This is a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming.
If it is taken to be a claim of a guilty, though, then that means there is basically a guaranteed scum in MMR and PPF. Past Present Future is never scum here, ever. EVER ever. Ergo, if there is a scum in the two, it is MMR.
The "why they did it" doesn't need to be something we know--they did it. MMR claimed a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming. This happened, period. There are many possible motivations behind it.
I have my

guesses

. MMR felt boxed in; MMR thought they could get away with it due to it being a soft-guilty and not eat a death afterwards from "oh well, guess we were roleblocked"; MMR genuinely believes PPF is scum for some reason but is wrong, and believes that an elimination on PPF will have no consequences since fakeclaiming a guilty on opposite scum still gets an opposite scum dead; MMR knows PPF to be town, but has a role-related reason for wanting to eliminate PPF this day phase (notably, say the same thing which gave scum incentive to push MathBlade/Dingle Dangle Scarecrow yesterday).
But none of those I can really know.
What I do know is that Past Present Future cannot be scum, and therefore, MMR cannot have a real guilty on them. And analyzing the claim and target and handling of it gives overwhelming reasons for MMR to be scum, with literally the

only

reason for MMR to be town being "scum wouldn't do this"--that's literally it.

Unless you wanna tell me something about MMR that isn't "scum wouldn't do this", that's the legit only reason they have to be town. Their role itself looks like a scumclaim; Their handling of it looks like a scumclaim; Their target selection looks like a scumclaim; Everything they are doing, looks like scum.
At some point, "scum wouldn't do this" becomes overwhelmed by the mountain of evidence demonstrating that, well. They did.

And this remains an apt summary:

MMR's role does not match the setup as being a town role.
MMR's role has contradictions in it which made it unlikely to be a real role.
MMR's claim has fundamental mechanical flaws to it.

MMR's play has not fit as holding that role.
MMR's target selection is beyond-suboptimal and is borderline gamethrowing as town.
MMR's claimed target makes sense as scum but not as town.

Scum may have incentive to kill PPF.
Scum are boxed in by the PoE and doing something to get out of it is needed.

MMR's claim is not a hard-guilty, giving them an out.
MMR's way of having played the claimed role/result does not fit a town perspective.

MMR is within the PoE, and the PoE is guaranteed to have all 6 scum, so MMR has a 6/7 chance of being scum.

Past Present Future is always town here so if there is a 1v1 between PPF and any other player (in this case, MMR), PPF wins and thus MMR is scum.

This is the reasons for MMR being scum--I haven't shared them all explaining them all but I've shared a fair amount of them and shown enough of them that if you're reading my posts in spite of unwnd's attempt to drown them out, you should know that I have DAMN good reason to think MMR is scum.

I'd only need one of these to have good reason to suspect MMR; I have ALL of them.

[mastina]

There’s no reason they can’t check each other or be forced to check the same target,

Respectfully, I have already made up my mind on who to target. I've hinted at who I am going to target and you can figure out my intended target if you go look for it, but I've no interest in specifying who precisely this is, nor deviating from my plan.

I'll tell you the name I am targeting is within my PoE pool of seven, because I ain't wasting my action on a townread. So there's seven names you can check my iso to try and figure out which of them I'm going to target since I did 'crumb it.

But I'm not going to pivot my choice and I'm not going to specify my exact choice.

Even giving this much away is arguably too much.

[mastina]

Ideally a person both Mastina and MMR TR so then they’re both incentivized for the townfirm but not me. Someone who has longevity.

Respectfully, I am so confident in my townbloc that I have zero interest in wasting a role that I can only use half the time, on confirming a read that I already know to be true.

If I investigate a townread, I give information on a town player away to both scumteams when I claim it, and get nothing from it, as it will just give an indication that I was right.

If I investigate a scumread, I give information on a player of unknown alignment to both scumteams when I claim it, and it can help us collectively hone in on the target's alignment.

I was always going to use the role to investigate scumreads not townreads. (Well, not always.

If I was unclaimed

, I could potentially become a secret mason with a townread by breadcrumbing to them that I knew their attunement, signaling to them "hey I know you're this, I am town and you are town". But from the moment I claimed, I was committed to always targeting scumreads.)

[mastina]

(

If I was unclaimed

, I could potentially become a secret mason with a townread by breadcrumbing to them that I knew their attunement, signaling to them "hey I know you're this, I am town and you are town".)

(For the record, I actually had a plan for this. My notes were,
Cult mafia game:
Every result: Let it be known that I sense {DARKNESS: ...but it's probably nothing.} {LIGHT: ...but we'll have to see if it means anything.}
Cover results with light role-playing, but never use the exact wording except for results.
...It should be noted that even at this time, I had already misremembered my role PM, butstill. The plan was a good one. I was intending to softclaim to my target, "hey, I know you are this attunement" every time I used my role. I digress tho, this is mostly trivia at this point. It ended up not manifesting.)

[mastina]

I don’t know for certain but this is what I feel matches everyone’s play.

Alternatively, I am town who knows how to read PPF.

PPF's play is their townplay--if you can't see that, that is, frankly, bluntly: your problem. And it is exactly that. A problem with you.

You can't pretend it's PPF's fault.

You can't pretend PPF haven't been town.

Past Present Future have been the towniest they have ever been this game--if you can't see that, that's a you issue. Not an issue with them.

This is the towniest game I have ever had--if you can't see that this is my towngame, that is, frankly, bluntly: your problem. Not mine. A problem with you, which is exactly that. You have played with me before and this is genuinely LEAGUES out of ANYTHING I have EVER shown before as scum. Nothing even remotely compares; scumastina has

never

had a three-page iso during a game. (I obtained a three-page iso in Star Wars Rogue One in

postgame

, but during the

actual game

, my iso was only two pages long.) Admittedly, I'm not at three pages

yet

, but I'm DAMN close and if I'm not nightkilled, I guarantee I'm crossing the three-page threshold this game.

That aside from the sheer amount of range I have displayed. scumastina can push things strongly, but while her strong pushes give the appearance of having conviction, she isn't actually convinced, she is faking being convinced, and it shows. Here the fact that I did believe it should show. scumastina does not become spiteful. scumastina does not use a claim to end her day phase as, she uses the claim as soon as in threat. scumastina never outs the breadcrumbs of a player publicly, she'd just point them out in the scum PT. scumastina doesn't get furious at not getting her way, and as far as I can recall, has never actually faked that. (scumastina gets genuinely angry at accusations which have no place in the game, but I'm pretty sure I've never lost my cool as scum for anything outside of that and have never faked it, either.) scumastina does not deliberately and actively enter the spotlight especially in a multiball game. scumastina lets the town eliminate town. scumastina does not speak up. scumastina does the bare minimum. And if you were to think rationally, you would realize all of that is true.
That while scumastina can fake any individual town trait (at least short-term), she cannot fake

all

of them long-term, and the entire array of towntells (literally all of them, even the contradictory ones because at different points I have had polarly opposite mindsets/styles/etc.) has been present in ways that have never appeared in scumgames because I genuinely couldn't pull this off as scum.

If you can't look at my play and see that I

cannot

pull this off as scum, after all of your games with me and seeing my scumgame and towngame repeatedly, after having seen countless towngames where I was playing like this or similar and how none of my scumgames are even remotely close to this game beyond surface-level similarities that are more personality/playstyle than anything else, if you can't tell that my pushes are town-motivated, that I have genuinely scumhunted and given my thoughts on the entire game and laid out why I have thought what I have, when I have, and you can't see why I would think those things as town?

That's a you issue.

Not a me issue.

I get that from an uninformed perspective, I look like I am partnered with PPF--but in this case it is as town not as scum because I know them to be town and they

mostly

know me to be town (the fact that they have doubted me as town should prove we're not scumbuddies btw).

What matches PPF's play.
What matches my play.
Is PPF being town.
Is me being town.

It matches our play because we are town.

If you can't see that we are town and that our play matches with us being town--then that's an issue with you. Not with us. Because this IS clear as day.

Past Present Future is

never

scum here.
And I am town.
So in that sense we are partnered, as honorary masons. No literal confirmation, but effectively confirmed to share the same alignment and for that alignment to be town. That is what our play is, that is what matches it, because that's what the case is.

[mastina]

Ideally a person both Mastina and MMR TR so then they’re both incentivized for the townfirm but not me. Someone who has longevity.

Got that. And seeing that mastina also claimed Astrologer (I missed that.), I guess that she could be Town because it wouldn't make sense for scum to receive a fakeclaim which is also a TPR.
I'll talk with my hydra partmers before we decide on a vote.

Didn't you say you were informed scum had a near identical role? Why would your conclusion be mastina's Town because she isn't fakeclaiming instead of her being scum because she's you? Also Loyal isn't in your name, but Limited IS in mastina's. That discrepancy seems important to me.
It really does just look more and more like you don't believe your own claim...

This also btw.

[mastina]

Do you still TR Enchant Mastina?

Yes.

I believe Enchant's townslip was a townslip.

I believe Enchant's play is his townplay.

He's probably my weakest locktown, the one I'm most likely to be wrong about, but still locktown all the same.

[mastina]

In the meantime, I'd like to hear from anyone who thinks there's a logical explanation for MMR to have botched their claim as badly as they have as scum.

What's the logical explanation for MMR having botched their claim this badly as town?

MMR botched their claim, period.

It's not the presence of a botched claim that makes MMR town or scum.
It is both the way it was done and their content beyond the botched claim which makes them likely scum. (Plus, PPF is never scum, so...)

[mastina]

By the way, mastina, why are we scum with furtive?

It's not a surefire thing.

There's seven names in my PoE, for six groupscum.

There's many individuals who cannot be scum with each other. (Well, at least are significantly less likely to be scum together.)

Eliminate those, and you're left with a finite number of options.

[mastina]

But I'm not Roden. So your point is void.

Roden is in your hydra.

So my point applies.

I have been pushing that you're scum by both role and play since the moment you've claimed.

All three heads have posted since I've done this--which means that Roden is aware that I have been doing it.
And none of the heads have conveyed that Roden did this in your chat, in spite of you sharing communications you've had in private.

Meaning, Roden hasn't done the "oh no...not again" thing.
Meaning, my point holds.

[mastina]

Because I can think of reasons involving MMR being town. I can't think of reasons involving MMR being scum.

Fortunately, I have!

I'm trying to think through cases right now of what's going on, because I don't understand MMR's motivation.

I have a theory!

As the sun begins to set, a ray of sunlight catches onto Mathblade and surrounds him. Likewise, as the moon rises the moonlight surrounds Dingle Dangle Scarecrow. They are surrounded by radiant and ethereal light.

Mathblade is blessed by the solar god Helius. He cannot be aligned with the Lunar Cult. If he was eliminated during this phase, the Solar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Solar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is blessed by the lunar goddess Luna. They cannot be aligned with the Solar Cult. If they were eliminated during this phase, the Lunar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Lunar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

I don't think that players being bathed in moonlight/sunlight was a mechanic specific to D1.

Now, the

details

might differ.
Maybe instead of a nerf to the other scumteam, one specific elimination gives a buff to the scumteam.
Maybe instead of knowing which player gives the enemy team a debuff, they know which player would give them a debuff.
Maybe it's still a debuff, but somehow different from a vanillaize of the scumteam.

But my theory is the

mechanic

is still present. As in, every day, until some sort of condition is met, two players are revealed with one revealed as not-sun and the other not-moon.
Those conditions could be anything from
-A scum player is eliminated,
-Enough phases of the game have passed (with it having been a set number, say, 2-4 reveals total),
-A player that was bathed in sun/moonlight is eliminated,
Who knows exactly.

But I don't think that it was just a D1 thing, just MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow and nobody else for the rest of the game.

Obviously, that theory is something which will either be proven to have merit or be proven wrong once this day phase ends. So no way of knowing.

But if my theory is right, you know what that gives scum incentive to do?

Potentially--eliminate a target.

If Past Present Future are bathed in light right now, that gives a motive for MMR to eliminate them,

especially

given the SOFT nature of the guilty. They're not claiming cop with a guilty where after a townflip from PPF we always kill MMR. They're claiming a soft guilty, one which is easy to talk their way out of when PPF flip town.

The reward from an elimination on a bathed target would be worth the risk of

potentially

(but not guaranteed) being eliminated after, would it not?

That gives incentive, that gives motive.

PPF is guaranteed to be town, here.

So the scenarios are:
MMR is town who had their result fail,
MMR is scum who thinks PPF is scum,
MMR is scum who claimed a guilty on PPF in spite of PPF being clearly town.

The first I have laid out my reasons for finding beyond unlikely. The claim doesn't fit as town and the play doesn't fit as town.
The second

could

happen, but MMR would know they were in trouble if PPF didn't flip scum.

So, the third fits the best.

We know MMR is claiming effectively a guilty on PPF.
And PPF is town.
So the reason boils down to, we know it happened--why?
The reasons why it fits for town-MMR are sketchy-at-best.
The reasons why it fits for scum-MMR are there, with the only thing missing being the motive.

What could make claiming a guilty on town worth it for MMR?

We know that it happened; figuring out the why is secondary because it happened, the reasons we can guess but it happened.
And the best guess I have for the why is that there is more than one reveal.

My role PM is worded in a way that makes it possible to just have the one reveal, but loosely implies more than one. Some EVENTS, plural for events. The event D1 caused me to be unable to target MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow.
EVENTS implies that there's more than just the D1 reveal.
Like, sayyyy...the mechanic being applicable to more than D1?

Is it guaranteed?

Why no, no it's not!

That's why it's a theory! (A game theory!)

But it's a

good

one because it helps explain the play we know has happened.

What motivation does scum Loyal claim a failed action?

Well scum wouldn't actually be Loyal, but ultimately, it's very simple:

MMR is claiming a Loyal investigation on PPF which failed.
This is a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming.

If it is taken to be a claim of a guilty, though, then that means there is basically a guaranteed scum in MMR and PPF.

Past Present Future is never scum here, ever. EVER ever.

Ergo, if there is a scum in the two, it is MMR.

The "why they did it" doesn't need to be something we know--they did it.

MMR claimed a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming.
This happened, period.

There are many possible motivations behind it.

I have my

guesses

.
MMR felt boxed in;
MMR thought they could get away with it due to it being a soft-guilty and not eat a death afterwards from "oh well, guess we were roleblocked";
MMR genuinely believes PPF is scum for some reason but is wrong, and believes that an elimination on PPF will have no consequences since fakeclaiming a guilty on opposite scum still gets an opposite scum dead;
MMR knows PPF to be town, but has a role-related reason for wanting to eliminate PPF this day phase (notably, say the same thing which gave scum incentive to push MathBlade/Dingle Dangle Scarecrow yesterday).

But none of those I can really know.

What I do know is that Past Present Future cannot be scum, and therefore, MMR cannot have a real guilty on them.

And analyzing the claim and target and handling of it gives overwhelming reasons for MMR to be scum, with literally the

only

reason for MMR to be town being "scum wouldn't do this"--that's literally it.

Unless you wanna tell me something about MMR that isn't "scum wouldn't do this", that's the legit only reason they have to be town.
Their role itself looks like a scumclaim;
Their handling of it looks like a scumclaim;
Their target selection looks like a scumclaim;
Everything they are doing, looks like scum.

At some point, "scum wouldn't do this" becomes overwhelmed by the mountain of evidence demonstrating that, well. They did.

IF MMR is scum then MMR is more likely lunar scum or wants to be elimmed. That this is a deliberate ploy. One that a scum team of them + buddies has to agree on,

For saying you disagree with my post, you sure seem to be proving my post to be true.

analyzing the claim and target and handling of it gives overwhelming reasons for MMR to be scum, with literally the

only

reason for MMR to be town being "scum wouldn't do this"--that's literally it.

Unless you wanna tell me something about MMR that isn't "scum wouldn't do this", that's the legit only reason they have to be town.

At some point, "scum wouldn't do this" becomes overwhelmed by the mountain of evidence demonstrating that, well. They did.

You're literally arguing in 3842 "MMR wouldn't do this".

That's your argument.

That's it.

"MMR isn't a good elimination because scum-MMR wouldn't have reason to claim a guilty on someone who would flip town".

That is the

only

argument being made in MMR's defense.

Prove me wrong.

Point to a SINGLE point in MMR's defense that is not that exact same argument, in different wording.

You can't, because the defense of MMR is literally that argument and that argument alone.

Meanwhile, there's BOATLOADS of reasons for Past Present Future to be town,
And there's BOATLOADS of reasons for MMR to be scum, both by play and by role.

The reasons for Past Present Future to be town are many. Not just one point said repeatedly. I've demonstrated why they are town from numerous different angles, and provided reasons for why scum would want to push them, even guilty them.

The reasons for MMR to be scum are many. Not just one mechanical point, or one play point. I've demonstrated what those points are numerous different times, albeit admittedly never covering them all in detail. While I don't know the

details

behind why they have claimed their false guilty on a player I know to be town, I have given numerous different theories that can potentially explain it. I don't know which of them is the truth, but I can still give them because there are numerous different possible explanations for it, not just a single shallow one.

Half the players voting PPF have done so explicitly under the belief that PPF and MMR are both scum--but what they fail to consider is that their point is just as valid if MMR

believes

PPF to be scum...and is just wrong.

What differentiates a scum MMR claiming a result on a scum PPF, from a scum MMR claiming a result on PPF when they

think

PPF is scum?

The two are effectively identical. MMR as scum would have a disloyal role always work and a loyal role always not work. That means that MMR as scum would have no possible role result on PPF that would actually tell MMR that PPF is definitively scum.

In other words,

It is impossible for a scum MMR to actually

know

PPF is scum

.

So with it being impossible for a scum MMR to actually KNOW PPF is scum,
It then becomes quite likely that MMR genuinely believes PPF to be scum...and is just wrong.

I realize that my theories can't all be correct.

MMR thought Yume had a damning result on PPF and decided to piggyback on it, and doubled down on it not realizing how big of a mistake they were making.
MMR felt the scum were boxed in, and was desperate enough to fake something on a core member of the townbloc holding it together.
MMR genuinely believes PPF to be scum.
PPF are bathed in either sunlight or moonlight, giving a scumteam tangible benefits to eliminating town.

Probably more.

Only one can be right, but all plausibly fit.

So there are motives present.

Given the magnitude of inconsistencies and suboptimal plays, I'm inclined to believe that one of them actually IS right.

[mastina]

I would like to reiterate that I am not a typical investigative

I know that!

But MMR didn't.

MMR had no way of knowing you weren't a typical investigative.

[mastina]

There is no guilty check, right? Someone clarify that for me.

The slot won't clarify.

Yes, MMR seems to be quite deliberately avoiding fullclaiming the specifics with an entire paraphrase of their role.
I wonder why?

I retain that MMR deliberately avoiding the fullclaim for as long as they did and spreading out the details which gradually changed,
Is not town.

MMR has gone beyond simply botching a role claim. While I can believe town can botch a claim, MMR in general trying is to pretend it didn't happen. If I had a role result that implicated another player as scum I would not stop to follow through on it. I feel like everyone else on the playerlist would do so too. It feels like MMR is just hoping we stop talking about their claim. It goes beyond botching a claim. They've had so many days to clarify their claim, lay everything out clearly, and try to lead an elimination based on it and they haven't.

Basically for this.


But to cover the claim itself in its many pieces:

We're

Town Astrologer

.

Each night, we target a player to see if they're VT or not. If they're not Town or our action doesn't go through, we get no result.
Though, I did forget one thing.
We're informed that at least one of the scum has a role almost identical to us.

Why you didn't say you was informed

I made up the Informed part based off information inferred in our role PM.
I thought that claiming Informed would make people pay more attention to it and think about it if we got flipped.

It's because Loyal is embedded in the role.

I can check somebody tonight.

The handling of the claim is largely contradictory with the details of the claim always changing.

What was the inferred information from their claim that made them "know" about a scum counterpart to their role?

They never said.
Their explanation for their Loyal section of the role doesn't fit, either.
And

why is there a role that has two different parts that do the same thing?

(Loyal is a Cop, Neapolitan is a Cop.)

But, to explain why their role is specifically not a Town Astrologer:
The (loose, obv, again not exact as to avoid modkill) formatting of my role PM is,

TOWN (MODIFIER--in my case, 'limited') ASTROLOGER
Description of which night phase, singular, I can act. Then, my power, attunement.
The information about scum attunements matching their respective sun/moon factions, with the details of it also including town.
The

modified

section of my role (in this case, 'limited'), specifying my limitations (some players I can't target, can't target more than once, will be informed when this happens).

And on N1, I received the feedback that I couldn't target either MathBlade or Dingle Dangle Scarecrow with my ability.


MMR's formatting

does not match mine

.
Piecing together MMR's broken-up claim, THEIR formatting is, apparently:
TOWN ASTROLOGER
A standard role PM which isn't modified based off of the game (and allows for targeting any night phase rather than singular). The power is a standard power (itself something I find unlikely)--but has the

limited modifiers in the wrong place

. MMR is claiming the

wrong formatting

for their role PM.
The information is not presented in their claim at all.

What information implies a scum counterpart from their claim?

It doesn't fit.

And there's no demonstration of it in their play, either.
Generally speaking, for all of D1, why didn't MMR breadcrumb their role or indicate who they were going to target?

Why didn't MMR hunt for the alleged similar role "almost identical" to theirs? If there were a scum role identical to theirs,

why wasn't MMR suspicious of Yume's investigative claim?
Why didn't MMR check on who the second investigative claim on D1 was?

Why did MMR not react to the investigative claims?

POV: We will let Yume check mastina and Yume claims "I am RBed by mafia, mafia doesn't want me to clean mastina" and we will repeat it again and again, before everyone die.
I predicted future. Now let's give mastina one day and look at my oracle powers.

I somewhat disagree with this.
We're risking too much on hoping that Yume will follow through her plan.
However, I don't know Yume well so if somebody who does says that Yume can be trusted, I'm OK with the plan.
Though, I think that it would be good for us to at least have an elimination so that our solving can be aided.
-Rubella

Why did MMR not target Yume, the claimed investigative?

Why did MMR not target me, the player Yume said she was going to target?

UNVOTE:
I'm going to look over all this with fresh eyes tomorrow. MathBlade's role apparently being complementary takes away from my suspicion it's a scum investigative, though I do still think mastina's play has been scummy... I don't know, but I'm not going to figure any of it out without sleep.

Wait.
Is there another Investigative now?
Both me and Mumps are really behind.
Measles also seems kinda busy so I have no idea what happened since my V/LA began and what Math told me yesterday.
-Rubella

This post shows that MMR was aware of an investigative claim on D1--are you telling me that as an investigative role, who knew that there was an investigative role claimed, all three heads didn't check who it was and what the role was?

They already knew that Yume was claiming some sort of investigative role--I literally just quoted them demonstrating knowledge and the quoted post here reaffirms it. They said "another Investigative", with the implication of Yume being the prior one.

Why didn't they look into it more? They literally knew Yume claimed an investigative. As an investigative, why didn't they try to confirm Yume by targeting Yume's target, or targeting Yume?
They specified doubt on Yume's claim here in 1810, but didn't think to use their own role to help confirm?
And in 2891 (which is obviously after 1810), they clearly were acknowledging Yume's claim.

So they have an investigative role or so they claim, and see Yume has an investigative role, and with their own investigative role...they don't interact with Yume at all? They don't try to confirm her, or coordinate with her, they do nothing? No feedback, no hints, nothing?

In fact, I have a bit of a theory.
Yume was publicly a claimed investigative role on D1.

Also, PPF lied about selling apples.

Really?
We tried to investigate them last Night and we received no result.
Measles think that this could be due to our Loyal modifier.

Yume, in 3014, specified a role that hinted that Yume had targeted Past Present Future N1.

I have a theory based off of that.

MMR knew that Yume had claimed an investigative role D1;
Yume hinted at having some form of damning result on PPF in 3014;
MMR, seeing this, made an erroneous assumption that Yume targeted PPF N1;

My theory is that MMR made a faked result on PPF thinking that Yume would back them up, not realizing Yume's actual target was me.

But back to that same post with more:

Also, PPF lied about selling apples.

Really?
We tried to investigate them last Night and we received no result.
Measles think that this could be due to our Loyal modifier.
-Rubella

Does this look like town with a guilty?

Roden and Ircher both saw me, as an investigative who got a No Result, bait scum into a bad claim in Datisi's cafe.
Roden and Ircher both saw Ydrasse, as an investigative with a non-damning result, bait scum into a bad claim in Datisi's cafe.

Are you telling me both of them are going to not try and do the same? You can argue that this was them doing so, but that is never a claim which gets Past Present Future to claim a bad claim.

Why not claim an unspecified guilty?
Why not say you have role-related reasons for wanting PPF to claim?
Why not vote the guilty result?

If there was confusion about the result and wondering if they were roleblocked, why did they not start the day saying they were roleblocked?
If they were waiting to see if town caused the failure, why didn't they start by asking about that?

we're a Loyal Rolestopper.

If anything, this claim is acknowledging that there is a perfectly logical explanation for the failed result. They, briefly, fakeclaimed a role, which would be a role that actually could explain their result.

It feels like it was done to bait out a protection claim on PPF, not to bait out a scumclaim from PPF.

we're a Loyal Rolestopper.

Why would you protect us over claimed prs?

Mumps and Measles wanted to see your reaction.
We're actually Loyal Neapolitan.
I guess that your reaction means that you're Town.
-Rubella

This being a scum post has already been covered, but to reiterate:
A Loyal Investigative with a No Result does not think that the reaction of PPF means PPF is town, because their investigative implicates the slot to be scum.

If MMR's claim were a gambit, if MMR's claim were a fakeclaim, then PPF reacting that way would be town.
But with MMR claiming to be Loyal with an actual No Result on PPF, this reaction should mean nothing to them.
Saying that PPF could be an unclaimed ascetic doesn't fit, either, because if PPF were an unclaimed ascetic, they would have claimed it in the initial result from first Yume and then later MMR.

And if MMR wanted to confirm that they weren't roleblocked, again,

why did they not start the day asking if they had been?

If they thought that they were roleblocked, then they should have specified it.
They should've known PPF wasn't ascetic from PPF's earlier interaction with Yume.

MMR’s claimed target doesn’t make sense either.
Can you explain why PPF?

Mumps and Measles wanted to investigate PPF after it was confirmed that your role was related to the scum.
Don't ask me about why they decided to do that.
-Rubella

I wonder why we shouldn't ask an investigative role why they investigated who they did?

Could it perhaps be because they don't actually have any town reasoning for it?

Also what makes you think my role is “confirmed” to have something to do with alignments?

Meg's announcement that you would've vanillaised the Solar Cult if you had been eliminated in the place of Bunny.
PPF's D1 push means that it's unlikely that they're Solar.
I know this doesn't make them conftown or confscum.
-Rubella

Why would you want to investigate someone who you suspect to not be from one faction?
This doesn't track because it makes no sense.

If you want to target someone not from one faction to confirm they are not from either, then PPF isn't who you want to target--that would be MathBlade or Dingle Dangle Scarecrow.
Basically, MathBlade/DDS are

better versions

of a PPF investigation

by their own logic

.
They suspected that it was unlikely PPF were Solar--
But they KNEW that MathBlade could not be Lunar.
They KNEW that Dingle Dangle Scarecrow could not be Solar.

If they wanted to target someone unlikely to be from one faction, why go for unlikely rather than absolutely guaranteed?

That makes no sense.

If they wanted to target someone who wasn't likely to be a specific faction, then by their own logic of thinking PPF wasn't Solar they shouldn't have targeted PPF.

There is no logical thought which leads to them targeting PPF under the belief that PPF isn't Solar.
If they wanted to target someone they had no read on a faction for, then they shouldn't have targeted PPF due to thinking PPF wasn't Solar;
If they wanted to target someone who they had a read on them not being a faction, then they should've targeted MathBlade or DDS.

Their own logical thought process for a target doesn't add up and is internally inconsistent.

And 3339 demonstrates not targeting with the Neapolitan part of their role at all.

As to why PPF, it's because it is the sensible choice. Like if I was being selfish and thinking only in terms of my own reads, I would check MathBlade because he has a very high chance of being scum, but checking MathBlade is not the practical choice. He is not practical because if he is scum, we don't gain any new insight. Past Present Future on the other hand is 1) unlikely to get killed if town 2) hard to scum read as either alignment 3) a constant presence in the thread. Understanding their alignment allows us to understand the overall game state.

And this post, much later down the line, uses entirely different logic to justify it. They used one explanation later and when that explanation was shown to be faulty, changed the explanation later.

All of that, aside from what I already said:

Play can be chalked up to mistake from ONE player, but from THREE players, ESPECIALLY mechanics-oriented players, it is so borderline unacceptable that it is genuinely an instant elimination.

Let's start with the Neapolitan half. A Neapolitan is at its strongest by targeting VTs, to generate hard-innocents. And since we have VTs in the game per the D1 flip, that means that MMR would know that they should try to get innocent results. The D1 elimination proved that there are VTs, but you know what also happened just before the elimination? ...Not one, but TWO different players effectively hard-townslipped a claim which essentially hinted at being VTs. Scarfmanship spelled this out the night I claimed, that T-Bone and Enchant believing that their role PMs gave no hint to alignment basically hard-spewed them as VTs. A Neapolitan, with not one but TWO players that essentially accidentally hardclaimed VT, chose to investigate NEITHER if them???

I can get some random player making that mistake. But Ircher is, infamously, a mechanics-oriented player. Do you think Ircher with a Neapolitan sees two players who basically hardclaimed VT and decides to investigate neither of them? RH9 from my understanding is ALSO mechanics-oriented. I've never actually played with him to verify, but seeing how he's literally THE most prolific user in mafia discussion, discussing the mechanics of roles, I'm pretty damn certain that he is a mechanics-oriented player, and I don’t buy him making the Mistake, either. Roden is the only one who could, but even RODEN is no slouch mechanically.
And you want to tell me that not one, not two, but THREE different holders of the role which is mechanics oriented made a night action choice that is woefully suboptimal? It's beyond improbable. It's not like Neapolitan is a gimmicky role. It's one of the most common Normal Game roles in existence. So all three of them should know the basic theory of the value of a hard-innocent.

Beyond that? PPF was town enough to be a nightkill option--you don’t try to target players who could be the nightkill, you specifically try to target those who will not be. This doesn’t contradict the above, either since neither T-Bone nor Enchant were likely nightkills ESPECIALLY given being vanilla. Even if they thought ONE VT would be nightkilled, they would know at least one would live--and let's be real, mo scum kills Enchant ever. So they could safely target Enchant.

PPF was more town than scum yesterday. So being so, which alignment has more reason to effectively rolecop them? (Neapolitan is a hybrid between Cop and Rolecop.) It ain't town.

Scum had more reasons to rolecop PPF than town did.

AND ONE MORE THING--MathBlade was a PR claim, but why not target Dingle Dangle Scarecrow? MY being unable to target either makes sense (it'd potentially hard-clear them), but MMR's role has no such justification--why not check DDS???
This all is play. You can attempt to write it off as a display of absolute sheer incompetence if you'd like, a collective brain shutdown from all three players who should know better. (Roden literally got mislimmed in part thanks to targeting a PPF like player N1. So to make the same sort of mistake twice is even less likely.)

But then we get into the actual role part. Namely, how the two halves are highly redundant. ANY result that is successful is an automatic innocent, thanks to Loyal. Neapolitan is a role which generates innocents in of itself, by targeting VTs. By stacking the two, it becomes effectively a more powerful cop, NOT ONLY learning if someone is town, BUT ALSO if they're a VT or a PR. If it were just Neapolitan I'd believe it. If it were just Loyal with a confirming result of literally any sort, I would believe it. (Checker, Motion Detector, etc. Literally any role which gets feedback at the end of a night, which is not already innately one of the strongest investigative roles in the game the way Neapolitan is.)

I don’t believe that the town has a Loyal Neapolitan ON TOP OF the revealing mechanic shown at the end of D1 ON TOP OF my role, which theirs is basically a stronger version of. My role just checks for attunement, which is a possible indicator of alignment and potentially reveals role or VTs;
Theirs gets outright confirmation of alignment AND role. They're literally claiming a stronger version of my role, which was even able to act a night sooner than me! (BTW free piece of NRG advice: the NRG tends to balance odd/even night roles by putting the weaker one FIRST, not second. Not always, but as a way to keep the power down.)

And then there are two other reasons for why I think that's a mechical scumclaim, but I'll finish with a final non-mechanics one:
I don’t buy MMR being blocked by scum; I don’t buy PPF being an unclaimed ascetic; MMR were in the PoE already for scum; PPF are town enough to be basically conftown. If they're trying to force a noncommittal guilty where after PPF flip town they go "Oh I guess we were roleblocked", well, I call bullshit. So, because PPF is never scum here, if there WAS a 1v1, by default, MMR would be the scum within.

MMR is claiming they can act

every night

with a role

stronger than a full Cop

effectively a powered up version of a Rolecop that essentially gets the full role PM including alignment.

And

scum had more reason to investigate PPF than town did

.

And then you get to this.

I don't understand MMR's motivation.

I have a theory!

As the sun begins to set, a ray of sunlight catches onto Mathblade and surrounds him. Likewise, as the moon rises the moonlight surrounds Dingle Dangle Scarecrow. They are surrounded by radiant and ethereal light. Mathblade is blessed by the solar god Helius. He cannot be aligned with the Lunar Cult. If he was eliminated during this phase, the Solar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Solar Cult was the only group with access to this information.
Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is blessed by the lunar goddess Luna. They cannot be aligned with the Solar Cult. If they were eliminated during this phase, the Lunar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Lunar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

I don't think that players being bathed in moonlight/sunlight was a mechanic specific to D1. Now, the

details

might differ. Maybe instead of a nerf to the other scumteam, one specific elimination gives a buff to the scumteam. Maybe instead of knowing which player gives the enemy team a debuff, they know which player would give them a debuff. Maybe it's still a debuff, but somehow different from a vanillaize of the scumteam.

But my theory is the

mechanic

is still present. As in, every day, until some sort of condition is met, two players are revealed with one revealed as not-sun and the other not-moon. Those conditions could be anything from
-A scum player is eliminated,
-Enough phases of the game have passed (with it having been a set number, say, 2-4 reveals total),
-A player that was bathed in sun/moonlight is eliminated,
Who knows exactly. But I don't think that it was just a D1 thing, just MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow and nobody else for the rest of the game. Obviously, that theory is something which will either be proven to have merit or be proven wrong once this day phase ends. So no way of knowing. But if my theory is right, you know what that gives scum incentive to do? Potentially--eliminate a target.

If Past Present Future are bathed in light right now, that gives a motive for MMR to eliminate them,

especially

given the SOFT nature of the guilty. They're not claiming cop with a guilty where after a townflip from PPF we always kill MMR. They're claiming a soft guilty, one which is easy to talk their way out of when PPF flip town. The reward from an elimination on a bathed target would be worth the risk of

potentially

(but not guaranteed) being eliminated after, would it not?
That gives incentive, that gives motive.

Some of mastina's posts today have been really awful, like proposing there's a second divine light event.

I don't see what's so bad about it. The claim is terrible, and the target selection even worse, and the handling of it today even worse. It looks scum on every level. PPF is guaranteed to be town, here.
So the scenarios are: MMR is town who had their result fail, MMR is scum who thinks PPF is scum, MMR is scum who claimed a guilty on PPF in spite of PPF being clearly town.
The first I have laid out my reasons for finding beyond unlikely. The claim doesn't fit as town and the play doesn't fit as town. The second

could

happen, but MMR would know they were in trouble if PPF didn't flip scum. So, the third fits the best.
We know MMR is claiming effectively a guilty on PPF. And PPF is town. So the reason boils down to, we know it happened--why? The reasons why it fits for town-MMR are sketchy-at-best. The reasons why it fits for scum-MMR are there, with the only thing missing being the motive. What could make claiming a guilty on town worth it for MMR?
We know that it happened; figuring out the why is secondary because it happened, the reasons we can guess but it happened. And the best guess I have for the why is that there is more than one reveal.

My role PM is worded in a way that makes it possible to just have the one reveal, but loosely implies more than one. Some EVENTS, plural for events. The event D1 caused me to be unable to target MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow. EVENTS implies that there's more than just the D1 reveal. Like, sayyyy...the mechanic being applicable to more than D1?
Is it guaranteed? Why no, no it's not! That's why it's a theory! (A game theory!) But it's a

good

one because it helps explain the play we know has happened.

And I think that mastina slipped having a similar role.
-Rubella

I claimed a similar role on D1 and literally not a single member of your hydra commented on it--which is one of the reasons I think your claim is bullshit.
Me claiming was a VERY BIG THING at the end of the day. It literally was the entire reason there was a scramble in the gamestate. It spewed T-Bone as town, it spewed Enchant as town, it got Scarfmanship off the voting list, it is why Bunnyonce was the player we ended up wagoning.
And you're trying to claim none of you saw it at all and thought to comment on it at all?

To reiterate--they

quite literally said

"wait what, there's another Investigative claim???". I just showed 2891--where they acknowledge there has been another investigative claim.

Why did they not check to see what that investigative role was?

MMR claimed a soft-guilty from Loyal, but apparently doesn't trust their own result.
PPF has claimed not ascetic, so the only other way the result isn't guilty from Town!MMR is if there was a roleblocker, which I find to be exceedingly unlikely given the multiple PR claims a roleblocker might target instead, and the existence of a roleblocker at all being unconfirmed.

So AT LEAST one of them HAS to be scum. SvS is possible, but TvT is such a remote possibility as to not be worth considering. I think MMR's claim is a dishonest attempt at influencing an elimination while avoiding responsibility for the flip, so I'm willing to bet MMR is scum here and want to flip them first, see what their role actually is, and judge PPF from there.

I do understand the desire to just follow the guilty instead, but thinking critically about this the claim just doesn't make sense, so I prefer that be settled first.

In the event MMR flips town you agreed that MMR wouldn’t be roleblocked so why would they get no result?

I agreed it wasn't likely they got roleblocked. I think it is more likely that MMR is scum than town who got roleblocked. But I'm never wrong on Past Present Future being town and thus their result

cannot

be a guilty. The options are ONLY MMR-roleblocked-town OR MMR-scum.
I believe MMR-scum, but if MMR was town then they were roleblocked in spite of me thinking they wouldn't be. I don't think MMR was roleblocked which is one of the reasons I think MMR is scum! But in the event MMR did flip town, the only possibility is MMR was roleblocked because PPF is never scum here, ever.

I have explained why Past Present Future is always town here. So with MMR claiming a soft guilty on PPF, I always vote MMR in the two. But I have more reasons for voting MMR beyond that. MMR was in the PoE. I have mechanical reasons to doubt MMR's claim. MMR's usage of the role does not match the three heads' worldview as town. And I explained some of this in 3191 back here.

What motivation does scum Loyal claim a failed action?

Well scum wouldn't actually be Loyal, but ultimately, it's very simple:
MMR is claiming a Loyal investigation on PPF which failed. This is a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming.
If it is taken to be a claim of a guilty, though, then that means there is basically a guaranteed scum in MMR and PPF. Past Present Future is never scum here, ever. EVER ever. Ergo, if there is a scum in the two, it is MMR.
The "why they did it" doesn't need to be something we know--they did it. MMR claimed a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming. This happened, period. There are many possible motivations behind it.
I have my

guesses

. MMR felt boxed in; MMR thought they could get away with it due to it being a soft-guilty and not eat a death afterwards from "oh well, guess we were roleblocked"; MMR genuinely believes PPF is scum for some reason but is wrong, and believes that an elimination on PPF will have no consequences since fakeclaiming a guilty on opposite scum still gets an opposite scum dead; MMR knows PPF to be town, but has a role-related reason for wanting to eliminate PPF this day phase (notably, say the same thing which gave scum incentive to push MathBlade/Dingle Dangle Scarecrow yesterday).
But none of those I can really know.
What I do know is that Past Present Future cannot be scum, and therefore, MMR cannot have a real guilty on them. And analyzing the claim and target and handling of it gives overwhelming reasons for MMR to be scum, with literally the

only

reason for MMR to be town being "scum wouldn't do this"--that's literally it.

Unless you wanna tell me something about MMR that isn't "scum wouldn't do this", that's the legit only reason they have to be town. Their role itself looks like a scumclaim; Their handling of it looks like a scumclaim; Their target selection looks like a scumclaim; Everything they are doing, looks like scum.
At some point, "scum wouldn't do this" becomes overwhelmed by the mountain of evidence demonstrating that, well. They did.

And this remains an apt summary:

MMR's role does not match the setup as being a town role.
MMR's role has contradictions in it which made it unlikely to be a real role.
MMR's claim has fundamental mechanical flaws to it.

MMR's play has not fit as holding that role.
MMR's target selection is beyond-suboptimal and is borderline gamethrowing as town.
MMR's claimed target makes sense as scum but not as town.

Scum may have incentive to kill PPF.
Scum are boxed in by the PoE and doing something to get out of it is needed.

MMR's claim is not a hard-guilty, giving them an out.
MMR's way of having played the claimed role/result does not fit a town perspective.

MMR is within the PoE, and the PoE is guaranteed to have all 6 scum, so MMR has a 6/7 chance of being scum.

Past Present Future is always town here so if there is a 1v1 between PPF and any other player (in this case, MMR), PPF wins and thus MMR is scum.

This is the reasons for MMR being scum--I haven't shared them all explaining them all but I've shared a fair amount of them and shown enough of them that if you're reading my posts in spite of unwnd's attempt to drown them out, you should know that I have DAMN good reason to think MMR is scum.

I'd only need one of these to have good reason to suspect MMR; I have ALL of them.

Ideally a person both Mastina and MMR TR so then they’re both incentivized for the townfirm but not me. Someone who has longevity.

Got that. And seeing that mastina also claimed Astrologer (I missed that.), I guess that she could be Town because it wouldn't make sense for scum to receive a fakeclaim which is also a TPR.
I'll talk with my hydra partmers before we decide on a vote.

Didn't you say you were informed scum had a near identical role? Why would your conclusion be mastina's Town because she isn't fakeclaiming instead of her being scum because she's you? Also Loyal isn't in your name, but Limited IS in mastina's. That discrepancy seems important to me.
It really does just look more and more like you don't believe your own claim...

This also btw.

In the meantime, I'd like to hear from anyone who thinks there's a logical explanation for MMR to have botched their claim as badly as they have as scum.

What's the logical explanation for MMR having botched their claim this badly as town?

MMR botched their claim, period.

It's not the presence of a botched claim that makes MMR town or scum.
It is both the way it was done and their content beyond the botched claim which makes them likely scum. (Plus, PPF is never scum, so...)

But I'm not Roden. So your point is void.

Roden is in your hydra.

So my point applies.

I have been pushing that you're scum by both role and play since the moment you've claimed.

All three heads have posted since I've done this--which means that Roden is aware that I have been doing it.
And none of the heads have conveyed that Roden did this in your chat, in spite of you sharing communications you've had in private.

Meaning, Roden hasn't done the "oh no...not again" thing.
Meaning, my point holds.

Because I can think of reasons involving MMR being town. I can't think of reasons involving MMR being scum.

Fortunately, I have!

I'm trying to think through cases right now of what's going on, because I don't understand MMR's motivation.

I have a theory!

As the sun begins to set, a ray of sunlight catches onto Mathblade and surrounds him. Likewise, as the moon rises the moonlight surrounds Dingle Dangle Scarecrow. They are surrounded by radiant and ethereal light.

Mathblade is blessed by the solar god Helius. He cannot be aligned with the Lunar Cult. If he was eliminated during this phase, the Solar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Solar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is blessed by the lunar goddess Luna. They cannot be aligned with the Solar Cult. If they were eliminated during this phase, the Lunar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Lunar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

I don't think that players being bathed in moonlight/sunlight was a mechanic specific to D1.

Now, the

details

might differ.
Maybe instead of a nerf to the other scumteam, one specific elimination gives a buff to the scumteam.
Maybe instead of knowing which player gives the enemy team a debuff, they know which player would give them a debuff.
Maybe it's still a debuff, but somehow different from a vanillaize of the scumteam.

But my theory is the

mechanic

is still present. As in, every day, until some sort of condition is met, two players are revealed with one revealed as not-sun and the other not-moon.
Those conditions could be anything from
-A scum player is eliminated,
-Enough phases of the game have passed (with it having been a set number, say, 2-4 reveals total),
-A player that was bathed in sun/moonlight is eliminated,
Who knows exactly.

But I don't think that it was just a D1 thing, just MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow and nobody else for the rest of the game.

Obviously, that theory is something which will either be proven to have merit or be proven wrong once this day phase ends. So no way of knowing.

But if my theory is right, you know what that gives scum incentive to do?

Potentially--eliminate a target.

If Past Present Future are bathed in light right now, that gives a motive for MMR to eliminate them,

especially

given the SOFT nature of the guilty. They're not claiming cop with a guilty where after a townflip from PPF we always kill MMR. They're claiming a soft guilty, one which is easy to talk their way out of when PPF flip town.

The reward from an elimination on a bathed target would be worth the risk of

potentially

(but not guaranteed) being eliminated after, would it not?

That gives incentive, that gives motive.

PPF is guaranteed to be town, here.

So the scenarios are:
MMR is town who had their result fail,
MMR is scum who thinks PPF is scum,
MMR is scum who claimed a guilty on PPF in spite of PPF being clearly town.

The first I have laid out my reasons for finding beyond unlikely. The claim doesn't fit as town and the play doesn't fit as town.
The second

could

happen, but MMR would know they were in trouble if PPF didn't flip scum.

So, the third fits the best.

We know MMR is claiming effectively a guilty on PPF.
And PPF is town.
So the reason boils down to, we know it happened--why?
The reasons why it fits for town-MMR are sketchy-at-best.
The reasons why it fits for scum-MMR are there, with the only thing missing being the motive.

What could make claiming a guilty on town worth it for MMR?

We know that it happened; figuring out the why is secondary because it happened, the reasons we can guess but it happened.
And the best guess I have for the why is that there is more than one reveal.

My role PM is worded in a way that makes it possible to just have the one reveal, but loosely implies more than one. Some EVENTS, plural for events. The event D1 caused me to be unable to target MathBlade and Dingle Dangle Scarecrow.
EVENTS implies that there's more than just the D1 reveal.
Like, sayyyy...the mechanic being applicable to more than D1?

Is it guaranteed?

Why no, no it's not!

That's why it's a theory! (A game theory!)

But it's a

good

one because it helps explain the play we know has happened.

What motivation does scum Loyal claim a failed action?

Well scum wouldn't actually be Loyal, but ultimately, it's very simple:

MMR is claiming a Loyal investigation on PPF which failed.
This is a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming.

If it is taken to be a claim of a guilty, though, then that means there is basically a guaranteed scum in MMR and PPF.

Past Present Future is never scum here, ever. EVER ever.

Ergo, if there is a scum in the two, it is MMR.

The "why they did it" doesn't need to be something we know--they did it.

MMR claimed a noncommittal soft-guilty that they did not breadcrumb and did not attempt to turn into a hard guilty and did not attempt to ask if they were blocked prior to claiming.
This happened, period.

There are many possible motivations behind it.

I have my

guesses

.
MMR felt boxed in;
MMR thought they could get away with it due to it being a soft-guilty and not eat a death afterwards from "oh well, guess we were roleblocked";
MMR genuinely believes PPF is scum for some reason but is wrong, and believes that an elimination on PPF will have no consequences since fakeclaiming a guilty on opposite scum still gets an opposite scum dead;
MMR knows PPF to be town, but has a role-related reason for wanting to eliminate PPF this day phase (notably, say the same thing which gave scum incentive to push MathBlade/Dingle Dangle Scarecrow yesterday).

But none of those I can really know.

What I do know is that Past Present Future cannot be scum, and therefore, MMR cannot have a real guilty on them.

And analyzing the claim and target and handling of it gives overwhelming reasons for MMR to be scum, with literally the

only

reason for MMR to be town being "scum wouldn't do this"--that's literally it.

Unless you wanna tell me something about MMR that isn't "scum wouldn't do this", that's the legit only reason they have to be town.
Their role itself looks like a scumclaim;
Their handling of it looks like a scumclaim;
Their target selection looks like a scumclaim;
Everything they are doing, looks like scum.

At some point, "scum wouldn't do this" becomes overwhelmed by the mountain of evidence demonstrating that, well. They did.

IF MMR is scum then MMR is more likely lunar scum or wants to be elimmed. That this is a deliberate ploy. One that a scum team of them + buddies has to agree on,

For saying you disagree with my post, you sure seem to be proving my post to be true.

analyzing the claim and target and handling of it gives overwhelming reasons for MMR to be scum, with literally the

only

reason for MMR to be town being "scum wouldn't do this"--that's literally it.

Unless you wanna tell me something about MMR that isn't "scum wouldn't do this", that's the legit only reason they have to be town.

At some point, "scum wouldn't do this" becomes overwhelmed by the mountain of evidence demonstrating that, well. They did.

You're literally arguing in 3842 "MMR wouldn't do this".

That's your argument.

That's it.

"MMR isn't a good elimination because scum-MMR wouldn't have reason to claim a guilty on someone who would flip town".

That is the

only

argument being made in MMR's defense.

Prove me wrong.

Point to a SINGLE point in MMR's defense that is not that exact same argument, in different wording.

You can't, because the defense of MMR is literally that argument and that argument alone.

Meanwhile, there's BOATLOADS of reasons for Past Present Future to be town,
And there's BOATLOADS of reasons for MMR to be scum, both by play and by role.

The reasons for Past Present Future to be town are many. Not just one point said repeatedly. I've demonstrated why they are town from numerous different angles, and provided reasons for why scum would want to push them, even guilty them.

The reasons for MMR to be scum are many. Not just one mechanical point, or one play point. I've demonstrated what those points are numerous different times, albeit admittedly never covering them all in detail. While I don't know the

details

behind why they have claimed their false guilty on a player I know to be town, I have given numerous different theories that can potentially explain it. I don't know which of them is the truth, but I can still give them because there are numerous different possible explanations for it, not just a single shallow one.

Half the players voting PPF have done so explicitly under the belief that PPF and MMR are both scum--but what they fail to consider is that their point is just as valid if MMR

believes

PPF to be scum...and is just wrong.

What differentiates a scum MMR claiming a result on a scum PPF, from a scum MMR claiming a result on PPF when they

think

PPF is scum?

The two are effectively identical. MMR as scum would have a disloyal role always work and a loyal role always not work. That means that MMR as scum would have no possible role result on PPF that would actually tell MMR that PPF is definitively scum.

In other words,

It is impossible for a scum MMR to actually

know

PPF is scum

.

So with it being impossible for a scum MMR to actually KNOW PPF is scum,
It then becomes quite likely that MMR genuinely believes PPF to be scum...and is just wrong.

I realize that my theories can't all be correct.

MMR thought Yume had a damning result on PPF and decided to piggyback on it, and doubled down on it not realizing how big of a mistake they were making.
MMR felt the scum were boxed in, and was desperate enough to fake something on a core member of the townbloc holding it together.
MMR genuinely believes PPF to be scum.
PPF are bathed in either sunlight or moonlight, giving a scumteam tangible benefits to eliminating town.

Probably more.

Only one can be right, but all plausibly fit.

So there are motives present.

Given the magnitude of inconsistencies and suboptimal plays, I'm inclined to believe that one of them actually IS right.

Pagetopping these collectively.

[mastina]

So this is where I reveal my shifty eyes: MMR, you said you are able to check someone tonight. When you roleclaimed you can check one person each night.
The next phase is not night. It's noon.

It's per night. We are used to normal mechanics where night is every other phase; we cannot target this upcoming phase.
~Mumps

For the record, I feel obligated to say (the inner mastina is screaming at me to not but I would like to remind both her and y'all that I said I was done being mastina):

I actually am doubting MMR as scum from this post alone.

It might seem odd to doubt MMR as scum from this post alone, so I should clarify that it's not this post alone,

per se

, so much as it is, acknowledgement that there

are

reasons for MMR to be town (T-Bone has posted some, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow has posted some, maybe others?), and those explanations I recognize as plausible, and noted them myself.

It's not like everything MMR did was some 100% guaranteed always-scum thing; there were town and scum explanations for both, and there still are.

There's still scum explanations for this, and I can explain them if need be.
But it'd be dishonest for me to not acknowledge that there

are

town possibilities--and this post is, so to speak, a facilitator of them. (One part of that is that from my own role PM, with me essentially as an even-night astrologer, I

was

expecting there to be a town odd-night equivalent of my role. I thought that any role able to act the same night as me would be a scum counterpart to my role, which is both why I pushed MathBlade thinking he was claiming my role and a contributing factor behind the MMR push, but if MMR acts on odd nights, then that fills the niche I was expecting for a town role to be in, instantly producing doubt.)

I can explain the nuances of this stance if you prefer, but ultimately, it doesn't make me unvote for a simple reason:
Past Present Future is never scum here.

If the options are {MMR, PPF, mastina} for an elimination, I'm

never

letting PPF go through (I literally would rather let myself die), and I am not interested in letting myself die--which by default, leaves MMR as the only option.
Possible scum, versus guaranteed not scum. MMR has given me pause, MMR has given me doubt. This is not "I suddenly think MMR is town". MMR could still be scum. But they're far less scum to me than they were last night. If last night was 98%, they're down to around 20-40%: possible scum, but less likely scum.

I also recognize that people want to resolve in that pool today. Their desire to make it resolve today means there's probably going to be too much resistance to vote anyone outside those three names. They'll insist that this isn't going to go away any time soon, that the MMR vs mastina + PPF will still be here tomorrow, unresolved. So they will continue to hard push for resolving it today. Making attempts to eliminate someone outside those three nearly impossible.

So like. If those people can't be swayed, then I'm going to vote MMR because PPF is town and I am town so there's only one scum possible even though it is also possible to all be town.

But my preference now would be the scum fanning the flames of this, in the likes of {unwnd, furtiveglance, Firebringer}.

I'm keeping my vote on MMR, because, again: still

possible

scum, and possible scum has a higher chance of flipping scum than guaranteed not-scum (PPF/myself), but actually, my preference would in fact be the "don't resolve it today", because in the event it is three town, I'm not looking forward to the clownfest of three consecutive townflips.

The advocates for resolving it today will say it won't go away tomorrow. That we'll just start it up tomorrow again--but given that was the same logic used to try and push my mislim through yesterday, I'm disinclined to believe that logic and actually as I was writing this out I think I just talked my way into "fuck this" in regards to the people insisting on resolving this today because fuck that logic, it literally was what almost got me mislimmed yesterday so no, fuck that, we can afford to leave it unresolved.

VOTE: unwnd

[mastina]

If the options are {MMR, PPF, mastina} for an elimination, I'm

never

letting PPF go through (I literally would rather let myself die), and I am not interested in letting myself die--which by default, leaves MMR as the only option.

People want to resolve in that pool today. They'll insist that this isn't going to go away any time soon, that the MMR vs mastina + PPF will still be here tomorrow, unresolved. If those people can't be swayed, then I'm going to vote MMR because PPF is town and I am town so there's only one scum possible even though it is also possible to all be town.

But my preference now would be the scum fanning the flames of this, in the likes of {unwnd, furtiveglance, Firebringer}.

The advocates for resolving it today will say it won't go away tomorrow. That we'll just start it up tomorrow again--but given that was the same logic used to try and push my mislim through yesterday, I'm disinclined to believe that logic and actually as I was writing this out I think I just talked my way into "fuck this" in regards to the people insisting on resolving this today because fuck that logic, it literally was what almost got me mislimmed yesterday so no, fuck that, we can afford to leave it unresolved.
VOTE: unwnd

This is the most important parts btw.

Fuck the logic of "this will still be around tomorrow if we don't resolve it today". The people pushing for a mastina elimination D1 were using

that exact logic

to try and push my mislim through. No, seriously. I can quote their posts on it if you don't believe me, but you should, because you were there to see it happen live and if your memory is in any way not that of a goldfish, you know I'm right in that being true. People insisted that a mastina elimination would give a lot of info and if it wasn't resolved D1, we'd restart the dance D2, and that therefore, the best option was to eliminate me.

Today people are saying eliminating in {MMR, PPF, mastina} will give a lot of info and if it's not resolved today, we'll restart the dance tomorrow, and therefore, the best option is to eliminate in that pool today.

I ain't letting the logic that nearly got me mislimmed yesterday, dictate what has an

at minimum

2/3rds chance of causing a mislim today.

Yes, I realize I said there's no way MMR and I are both Astrologers with the differences in our roles.
Yes, I realize that MMR getting No Result on PPF is seen as a guilty.

But PPF is town and I am town and MMR, while possible scum, has reasons to potentially be town, too.

I'm not interested in having three back to back to back townflips and the town try to scramble to figure out wtf happened and try and find the scum, but be down all the town nightkilled in that time in addition to two of the strongest most active town players giving scumhunting and mechanical feedback who could help the town clarify if they were alive.

Unironically, I think the best option actually IS to vote outside the group of {MMR, PPF, mastina}.
Yes, it will continue to be unresolved, but given time in the event it actually IS all three as town, then we can have that shown with time. Resolution isn't required to come from an elimination today. It can come on any day phase. As long as the town has the majority on the day after the current one, we have the luxury of not resolving on the current day. (Which is to say, we can't wait until lylo to resolve, but we can wait until literally the day before lylo to resolve.)

The conflict will remain, but we can sort the conflict more passively and indirectly.

[mastina]

If the options are {MMR, PPF, mastina} for an elimination, I'm

never

letting PPF go through (I literally would rather let myself die), and I am not interested in letting myself die--which by default, leaves MMR as the only option.

People want to resolve in that pool today. They'll insist that this isn't going to go away any time soon, that the MMR vs mastina + PPF will still be here tomorrow, unresolved. If those people can't be swayed, then I'm going to vote MMR because PPF is town and I am town so there's only one scum possible even though it is also possible to all be town.

But my preference now would be the scum fanning the flames of this, in the likes of {unwnd, furtiveglance, Firebringer}.

The advocates for resolving it today will say it won't go away tomorrow. That we'll just start it up tomorrow again--but given that was the same logic used to try and push my mislim through yesterday, I'm disinclined to believe that logic and actually as I was writing this out I think I just talked my way into "fuck this" in regards to the people insisting on resolving this today because fuck that logic, it literally was what almost got me mislimmed yesterday so no, fuck that, we can afford to leave it unresolved.
VOTE: unwnd

This is the most important parts btw.

Fuck the logic of "this will still be around tomorrow if we don't resolve it today". The people pushing for a mastina elimination D1 were using

that exact logic

to try and push my mislim through. No, seriously. I can quote their posts on it if you don't believe me, but you should, because you were there to see it happen live and if your memory is in any way not that of a goldfish, you know I'm right in that being true. People insisted that a mastina elimination would give a lot of info and if it wasn't resolved D1, we'd restart the dance D2, and that therefore, the best option was to eliminate me.

Today people are saying eliminating in {MMR, PPF, mastina} will give a lot of info and if it's not resolved today, we'll restart the dance tomorrow, and therefore, the best option is to eliminate in that pool today.

I ain't letting the logic that nearly got me mislimmed yesterday, dictate what has an

at minimum

2/3rds chance of causing a mislim today.

Yes, I realize I said there's no way MMR and I are both Astrologers with the differences in our roles.
Yes, I realize that MMR getting No Result on PPF is seen as a guilty.

But PPF is town and I am town and MMR, while possible scum, has reasons to potentially be town, too.

I'm not interested in having three back to back to back townflips and the town try to scramble to figure out wtf happened and try and find the scum, but be down all the town nightkilled in that time in addition to two of the strongest most active town players giving scumhunting and mechanical feedback who could help the town clarify if they were alive.

Unironically, I think the best option actually IS to vote outside the group of {MMR, PPF, mastina}.
Yes, it will continue to be unresolved, but given time in the event it actually IS all three as town, then we can have that shown with time. Resolution isn't required to come from an elimination today. It can come on any day phase. As long as the town has the majority on the day after the current one, we have the luxury of not resolving on the current day. (Which is to say, we can't wait until lylo to resolve, but we can wait until literally the day before lylo to resolve.)

The conflict will remain, but we can sort the conflict more passively and indirectly.

Pagetopping this.

[mastina]

Fed up of mastina's spamming.

Shouldn't have pushed me when I'm town because I have a long-established history of going ballistic when under pressure as town.

(And, notably, have no experience of going ballistic as scum.)

I guarantee you.
I promise you.

If the elimination pool was players I didn't care about?

I would be fairly muted.

There's genuinely only three players I would be this vocal about: {mastina, PPF, Yume}.
If the elimination pool did not have any of those three, I would be a lot more quiet because as it turns out, I do not approve of my strongest townreads being voted out!

No fucking shit I'm gonna spam when the players being voted are the two I am most certain are town in the game.
The reasons for PPF to be town are solid.
The reasons for PPF to be scum are basically all absolute shit.

The reasons for me to be scum are absolute shit.

And I am not going to allow players, not town but ESPECIALLY not scum, to get away with shit pushes.

[mastina]

And as much as I hate Wisdom, I am gonna have to use Wisdom logic. You think multiple players telling you she is town are all wrong?

This, but also, PPF for the same reason.

Literally anyone who has played with Nancy before should know she is town here.

They can't all be wrong.

None of you are cooperating.

That's because they're basically all scum, plus MathBlade.

And the scum are hiding behind MathBlade because when he is wrong he gives them a nice shield.

(I know that someone will try and say the same about me, but the difference is, I am not wrong on PPF being town and I know myself to be town, whereas MathBlade is wrong in either of us being scum, soooooooooooooo. Scum aren't hiding behind me as a shield. They ARE hiding behind MathBlade.)

[mastina]

Also, to those who scumread mastina, show me one game in the past five years where she spammed in the exact manner she does in this game, okay?

Already did.
You ignored it. Don’t have time to grab it again.

You most definitely did not, because none exist.

You linked to a scumgame of mine, that's true!
And then you were told--not ignored, TOLD--why your link showed you weren't making a point in good faith.

And then it was YOU, not Yume, YOU who ignored that. YOU were the one who ignored why the game you linked was not in fact comparable. It was already covered, and YOU were the one who didn't engage with that. Don't blame Yume for what is your shortcoming.

[mastina]

Astrologer likely exists or a role like it.

at some point im going to have to sit down and actually figure out these games mechanics. But it won't be this game day. Hopefully i don't have to think about this till post game.

By the way, y'all should be ashamed of not calling Firebringer out for transparently having a scum iso.

No, seriously.

This is Firebringer's iso this game.

Can you point me to a single scumhunting/good thought within?

Firebringer is, blatantly, getting away with doing nothing, because y'all are letting him get away with it.

[mastina]

eliminating within the bounds of the claim is going to give us mechanical insight and associatives for both scumteams, as well as the ability to analyze how people behaved around the claim(s), and basically gives us a very large hole with which to finally tear this game open.

Okay, and if all of MMR/PPF/me are town, can you share what groundbreaking mechanical insight we will have? ('Cause to me, it will say "there was a failed result that led to a shitshow where we eliminated two+ PRs and the two strongest town players in the game", which doesn't really say much beyond what we already know today.)

Can you share what insights and associatives for both scumteams will be revealed?

You'll have the analysis around the claims, but all that will tell you is that the long-since-nightkilled players like Yume were town, which--SHOCKER--you already would know.

There's things to be gained from a scumflip, sure.

There's no things to be gained from a townflip.

MMR is still possible scum and I will vote there if I have to--but I'm more interested now in eliminating surefire scum and the likes of {Firebringer, unwnd, furtiveglance} who are blatantly coasting by on the MMR/PPF/mastina situation are surefire scum blatantly coasting by because they can get away with it because you are letting them because you are hard-tunneled on resolving something with an elimination that might involve three town players (and is guaranteed to have at least two).

[mastina]

I never thought I'd see a game where "we should do something about a claimed guilty" was a controversial take...

That's the thing.
It's not.

It's the blind consensus take.

It is the thoughtless take.

You pushing it isn't controversial.

You aren't pushing a minority opinion. You are pushing a majority opinion. The majority disagrees on which name to vote to resolve, but does not disagree on the principle of resolving it today, agreeing with the premise.

It's me who has the more controversial take, of leaving the three names alone--but that's because mine is actually done with giving thought to the situation at hand and reading by play, not by claim.

Has everyone pushing to resolve forgotten a holy golden rule?

Play > Role.

PPF are 100% town here by play, period.
I am town by play.
MMR are possible town by play.

The role is not a hard-guilty. So while it is a soft-guilty, it is not a "100% PPF must be scum".

Given the guilty is not 100%, you should still be using play to analyze if you feel the guilty is a guilty.

Since PPF is town by play, the guilty is not a guilty.

So the options are MMR town or MMR scum--and to resolve

that

, you need to look at...you guessed it! Play.

By play, MMR could be scum, admittedly--so if I were to vote to resolve the role, it would be on MMR.

But,

A non-100% guilty should still involve players reading situation by play to determine the alignment of players.

PPF is town;
I am town;
MMR is possible town;

If the three are all town, then what does that mean we should do?
Blindly eliminate by role in spite of it not being definitive?

OR, analyze by play, and see if there are scum hiding behind the role discussion and blatantly getting away with being scum doing fuckall of anything?

Turning a brain on to focus on thinking about play is perhaps a controversial stance but it is mine and it is why I prefer an elimination on {unwnd, Firebringer, furtiveglance} right now.

[mastina]

While I don't expect this to sway you since you've devoted yourself so strongly to a PPF townread based on nothing

Fuck that narrative.

I've explained my PPF townread and don't you fucking pretend that's based on nothing.

That's based on fucking play.

Yaknow.

The thing we use outside of roles to read players???

PPF is town by play here 200%.

Don't fucking pretend my read is hot air there.

[mastina]

I don’t think spending 3 hours on a questionnaire is ignoring.

It is when literally half a dozen players pointed out your answers to the questionnaire were disingenuous as fuck, pointed this out, and you have fucking repeatedly ignored them having said as much.

Every time, this discussion keeps repeating:
"point to where mastina has done this as scum"
"I did, when I did the questionnaire, you're ignoring that"
"No, we answered you and pointed out why your points were wrong/flawed/disingenuous/etc., and then you didn't engage"
*silence*

You. are. not. engaging. in. the. people. telling. you. that. you. were. wrong.

They have, repeatedly, pointed out why you were wrong.
They have, repeatedly, explained why you were wrong.
And then instead of engaging them and analyzing if maybe, just maybe, you were wrong--you just say "well I disagree", move on, and say you did it already.

[mastina]

Tell me WHY PPF is Town by play, because so far all I've seen you say is that Nancy is only "like this" as Town. Define "like this," and explain why she can't do whatever it is as scum.

I have!

I can see all town except PPF.
Can you elaborate on that?

Nancy has a certain ~energy~ as town, and is particularly passionate and emotional as town. She is fairly active and engages a ton. It's hard to really describe, but the difference between her scumplay and dayplay is night and day. If you can see Yume as town from her being in her day compared to her scum/night, then you should be able to see Nancy as town from her being in her day.

And Titus is also in her town meta. The things she is focusing on, her areas of engagement, the way she is talking to others, the reads she has, all of it is what I would expect from a town Titus, in being good but not perfect. She's also not visibly defending scum, in a game that we know scum have extra reason to defend scum in. Who could Titus be scum with? She can't be scum with anyone, really, which makes her town.

they are town through and through.

But, basically: a town Nancy is incredibly active (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly emotional (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly erratic (a scum Nancy, far less so), all over the place, not strategic, not focused, is basically ADHD manifested both the attention deficit part and also randomly hyperfocusing on things and ignoring things to focus on one specific thing which she locks onto. She has an energy. She knows she is town and this affects her worldview. She is extra prone to OMGUS behaviors, because with her knowing she is town, she has a FIRE on those scumreading her because in her eyes, there's no way that player could be genuinely scumreading her because clearly if they were town they wouldn't be scumreading her.

And THAT is the Nancy we have

this

game.

Titus is a harder read to explain but it is also meta and explaining without meta is more difficult.

There's also the combined meta of them specifically in a hydra. Titus has a hydra town/scum meta, so does Nancy; they're both in their town hydra meta.

Nancy is not a good scum player. Nancy's scumplay and townplay are night and day different. Nancy's scumplay has virtually zero resemblance to her townplay, and thus there are no superficial similarities.
Nancy's scumplay is bad enough that there's no reason to assume she's suddenly having the game of her life as scum, where suddenly inexplicably she's somehow leveled up her scumgame to be ten times better.

And even if Nancy were a good enough player to keep up the non-superficial similarities to her towngame temporarily--the length she has done so THIS game makes it genuinely impossible for her to be scum, here. If Nancy's townness was temporary, then she could be scum plausibly. But Nancy has only been getting stronger and stronger with time, getting more and more in her towngame. If she were scum, her scumgame would come out more and more and she'd stray further and further from her towngame.

But it's literally the opposite. She's getting more and more into her towngame and further and further from her scumgame.

Nancy is genuinely clear enough to be an Innocent Child in her own right.

So much of PPF's iso this day is the same things repeated again and again,all of which are entirely self centered and do not read other players.
- mastina is town
- i would never kill prof
- people who oppose me are scum
- mathblade, please stop reminding people that there is a guilty on me

- i have a confirmable role as early as tomorrow*

*terms and conditions may apply

Compare this to how Titus apparently is going to make a reads list in the future, but nancy won't even post an inkling of information, because, uhhh, when nancy makes readslists nancy gets shit on? Why is getting shit on a concern to you when you are at death's door + you are already getting shit on? Why won't nancy even take the first step to making reads on other players when I asked who was scum on wagon? Why is nancy concerned about getting shit on if they have a role that is confirmable as early as tomorrow**?

** professional driver on closed course, do not attempt

Bunny knew they were dying soon and did their best to give all their information away, even though they had next to nothing. PPF is one of the top posters in the game and refuses to give anything away. I think the answer is that they know they are dying soon and don't want to give any information away. They will instead quote this post and make a snarky remark.

Funny thing about this.

You know what that is?

It's that not all players are the same.

There's no cookie cutter universal playbook.

What Bunnyonce did is reflective of Greeting and Aisa as players. That matches what you are saying you feel a town player should do.

But not all town players fit that mold.

And Nancy in particular does not. (As a general rule of thumb, players whose posting style is more reactive overall typically are the ones furthest from the "expected mold", because being reactive, their reactions mean they are reacting in ways that do not match the mindset assumed to be default, because the assumed default mindset is that town would be proactive, in spite of that not being universally true. Nancy is a perfect example of that.)

The things you mention are cookie cutter scumtells.
They are not Nancy scumtells.
In fact, quite the opposite!
They are some of the strongest possible towntells for Nancy to display.

If you really don't care which of the two you want to eliminate, why are you still on PPF and equaling the wagons, rather than MMR to tip the wagons in one direction?

'cause I think PPF is solar and solar acts tonight, now because interacting with you and PPF is the pinnacle of unproductive content,

PPF is not the pinnacle of unproductive content and saying they are is disingenuous as fuck.

Nancy is giving reads almost every post.

Those reads are constantly shifting.

Those reads are constantly changing.

But everyone voting Nancy for not giving reads is literally lying their asses off when they say she isn't giving them.

She has changed her vote how many times this day phase? Has to have been at least eight times.

Every time she changes her vote that post is accompanied with reasons why she feels her current vote is worth voting.

That ain't unproductive content. That is content that gives tangible things to interact with and engage with and leave a legacy with.

It's not organized all into one place.

But it ain't absent, either.

idgaf about meta, i haven't played on this site in something like 6 years.

And I have explained why PPF is town without using meta:

Nancy is literally the easiest player to read onsite. Genuinely, literally, the easiest.

Any player who has ever played with her before and doesn't insist meta is trash,
Should be townreading her--a lack thereof from any meta-user is genuinely a scumclaim.

It's hard for me to describe why she's town without using meta because I know the meta is right.

But, basically: a town Nancy is incredibly active (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly emotional (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly erratic (a scum Nancy, far less so), all over the place, not strategic, not focused, is basically ADHD manifested both the attention deficit part and also randomly hyperfocusing on things and ignoring things to focus on one specific thing which she locks onto. She has an energy. She knows she is town and this affects her worldview. She is extra prone to OMGUS behaviors, because with her knowing she is town, she has a FIRE on those scumreading her because in her eyes, there's no way that player could be genuinely scumreading her because clearly if they were town they wouldn't be scumreading her.

And THAT is the Nancy we have

this

game.

There's also the combined meta of them specifically in a hydra. Titus has a hydra town/scum meta, so does Nancy; they're both in their town hydra meta.

Of course there's pushback to them being scum--because they're self-evidently not.

Nancy has shown incredible thought progression and engagement in the game in a way that scum are incredibly unlikely to have.
Nancy has shown emotion that is incredibly unlikely to come from scum that know they are scum.
Nancy has shown a perspective of believing herself to be town and knowing it to be so obvious that any suspecting her are more likely to be scum.

While those are all augmented by meta, they are also generically town traits. Nancy has shown constant evolving thoughts, and given countless contributions, having given thoughts on basically every player in the game. She has never once been in anti-spew mode. She has never once avoided explaining her stance when directly posting about the player she holds that stance on. When engaging with a scumread she gives the reasons for the scumreads.

Nancy is very very very heavily neurodivergent.
Nancy, with how neurodivergent she is, does not point in ways that are considered typical or fit a mold. She does not play by the standard set of play.

However, she is not unreadable even without meta.

You can look at Nancy's progression in thoughts across the entire game to see an organic evolution in her thoughts, changing fluidly off of new posts. I realize Past Present Future's iso is ludicrously long--so nobody actually will do that. But if anyone were to actually do it, they'd see exactly what I mean with that. The PPF iso is filled with constantly changing thoughts that demonstrate an evolution of perspective.

Their stances have never been static.

Their stances have been shifting.

They have given thoughts on every slot at various points, and those thoughts have gone through entire spectrums of reads. Nancy in particular has made strong reads/stances known.

In spite of being a leading wagon today with a high chance of going through, Nancy is not interested in being survivalistic by voteparking MMR. She has turned to all of her scumreads and voted them and at one point even voted MathBlade in protest to his stubborn wrongness.

She has shown constant indignation, she has shown constant belief in herself that she is town. Her very worldview is that she is town and players should know she is town--that's how she thinks when she is town. And by having this viewpoint, when players do not match her viewpoint, she sees it as suspect. To her because she is obviously town here, players thinking she could be scum are automatically more likely to be scum.

"Can't she fake that as scum?"

Well, that's where meta comes in, the thing you're constantly ignoring me about being true on.
No, she can't. Her scumplay is flat in comparison, because while she can OMGUS as scum, she can't muster up the same level of conviction, especially not the flipping-on-a-dime focus.
The very way she OMGUSes is different based on alignment.

As scum, she OMGUSes to protect herself. Her OMGUS is designed to be survivalistic, to try and fight out of being in the hole she is in.

As town, she OMGUSes because of absolute confidence that she is town and looks town. Her OMGUS is her scumhunting, because she fully believes that only scum will see her as scum.

How much more do you want me to explain? Do you want me to pull up examples of this?
I already did that, too!
I've shown her scumgame and how flat it is in comparison.

I. have. explained. why. Nancy. is. town. By every metric.
I've explained the meta.
I've explained the read without relying on meta.
I've shown why it is town in this game specifically, as well as town in general for her.

I'm not wrong on Past Present Future being town, here.
It's 90% Nancy 10% Titus, but PPF is town by every metric here.

[mastina]

I had another response typed, but fine we'll address that.

Tell me WHY PPF is Town by play, because so far all I've seen you say is that Nancy is only "like this" as Town. Define "like this," and explain why she can't do whatever it is as scum.

She has. In multiple posts. You and everyone else would know this if you actually read her posts. So I don't get why are you repeatedly asking her questions that you could find the answers to yourselves BY ACTUALLY READING HER POSTS.

<3

Yume is right.

I get that my iso is ludicrously long.

I get that my posts are ludicrously long.

But you guys are going to have your minds blown by a neat trick that can make it much easier to find these things.

It's a little thing called "control-F".

You'll miss some content from it--I'm pretty sure I've defended PPF in some places that my own control-F search of my iso didn't bring up. (Yes I need control-F for my own iso, it's long.)

But even basic control-F searches help narrow it down.

I literally took less than five minutes to compile 4090 by just searching my iso for "Nancy". Not every post had useful info from it since a lot was just 'Nancy is town', but it took less than two minutes for me to find

explanations

for 'Nancy is town'.

[mastina]

Her posts are tangential and don't have any structure to them
I believe this is intentional but her defenders keep telling uhhh no that's her town meta
I don't want to believe this obstructive way of engaging with the thread is in any form town

This is disingenuous as fuck and genuinely the only reason I'm not reporting unwnd for discrimination against neurodivergencies (he said literally this exact sort of bullshit in response to me being verbose) is because I believe it comes from scum being deliberately disingenuous rather than from town being harmfully ignorant. (And yes, if unwnd is in fact town I am reporting 4091 and 2703 as being the abusive-violates-site-rules ableist posts they are.

Because unwnd is in fact being ableist with saying that neurodivergencies are indicative of the user being scum.
If he is scum he has an excuse; being that disingenuous is playing to his wincon by trying to discredit town players.

If he is town he has no fucking excuse.

[mastina]

Mainly Mastina v unwd+FB (maybe?) really seems SvS.

Well that means you have a guaranteed scum elimination by voting out one of unwnd/Firebringer, now, doesn't it?

Tell me,

MathBlade:

iso Firebringer please.
What do you see in that iso?

You've said you think me vs them is SvS, which implies you think Firebringer is scum.

But I am asking you to iso Firebringer specifically and to see just

how

scum he is.

Do you think Firebringer's iso is in any way shape or form town?

If the answer is 'no', then let me remind you:
A scum elimination is a scum elimination.
With no scum dead, it doesn't matter which scum is eliminated. Scum dead is scum dead.
If you think Firebringer is scum, then eliminating Firebringer is eliminating scum, and dead scum is dead scum is not a bad elimination to make today.

[mastina]

You're playing a game and I'm reading you based on what you input on the game

This has no barring on your individuality

I don't appreciate being accused in this way,

And I don't appreciate you fucking accusing neurodivergent folk of their neurodivergencies being scumtells.

You have repeatedly ignored the people saying why those traits are not inherently alignment indicative--that ain't meta. That's them having basic respect for the fact that neurodivergencies mean that neurodivergent players are not going to think in the "standard" way.

If you were reading based off of input on the game, you would read the nature of the content produced from the neurodivergency, not accuse the neurodivergency itself of being scum.

Once I was already furious at--but twice is inexcusable.

[mastina]

¤ Do not use anything not originating from this game in order to influence your play.

Pray tell how telling me that you want to report me for being ableist is not trying to influence the game outside of it, mastina

Ableist behavior needs to be shut down, period--if Meg wants to remove me from the game for having a belief that what you did is unacceptable if you are town, then so be it.

But it is unacceptable if you are town.

It is morally questionable, but not outright unacceptable, if you are scum.

It is utterly deplorable, and outright unacceptable, if you are town.

Because I don't know your alignment, I don't know which it is.

I've stated my belief that I believe you are scum being disingenuous. That is in-game.

But the behavior is unacceptable, regardless of your alignment. It is excusable and not reportable if you are scum, but it is inexcusable if you are town. It needs to stop regardless, and if Meg wants to replace me for saying so, so be it. But it's the truth.

Your ablelist comments are ableist, and unacceptable behavior.
If you are scum you have the excuse of playing to your wincon to discredit town--it is deplorable, but not illegal.
If you are town you have no excuse.

I won't know until you have flipped tho so I won't know if I need to report the ableist posts as being so.

[mastina]

I think the mastina voters should move here.

For the record.

Toogeloo's presence is far lower than I feel Toog would have if town, here.

Toog, unwnd, Firebringer, and furtiveglance are all looking like definitive scum, here.

I can see Radical Rat, Scarfmanship, and--yes--even MMR as town, here.

Not all three of them, mind you. But 1-2 of them as town, I can see.

And Toogeloo ain't as definitely scum as unwnd/Firebringer/furtiveglance are.

But like.

The scum here are pretty damn clearly not in the strongest pushers today and mostly lurking and letting the town eat itself alive.


If I were to do a readslist, it'd be:
WITHIN PoE:
{MMR, Radical Rat}
{Scarfmanship}
(Note: this has a guarantee of 1 town, and could have 2 if I am wrong on a townread like Enchant. But it can't be all 3 as town, there's a guarantee of at least one scum in there.)

LEAN SCUM:
{Toogeloo}

SCUM:
{furtiveglance}
{unwnd}
{Firebringer}

[mastina]

DOUBLE-LOCKTOWN (role+play):
{MathBlade, Yume}
{T-Bone} (not on same tier by either play or role, but still locktowned all the same by being the towniest player in the game disregarding meta)

LOCKTOWN (play):
{Past Present Future}
{Save the Dragons/Ydrasse, Dangle Scarecrow}

PREVIOUS DOUBLE-LOCKTOWN:
{Enchant} (still looks town more than not but if any of my townreads are wrong, it's Enchant)


WITHIN PoE:
{MMR, Radical Rat}
{Scarfmanship}

LEAN SCUM:
{Maid Cafe/Toogeloo}

SCUM:
{furtiveglance}
{Radja/unwnd}
{Frozen Angel/Firebringer}

[mastina]

This sure was a game.

[mastina]

Originally was gonna type this up here and just flip it around, but that requires effort, so I guess I'll just quote this here and give the tl;dr after:

Btw now that both games are actually over, I can say that this game was running concurrently to Cosmos Mafia, with me as town in both, and power-efforting in both--and the result of both of those games was in large part what broke me.

If you look, you can even see instances of identical posts between games.

Spoiler: Compare this game's 579

we have 5 so i think yours are just missing people so far
(me / bell / penguin / fire / ceph)

?

FA not you
i literally checked idk how i got that wrong

Oh, still think it's all town because Frozen Angel is Town*, with an asterisk, to me, this game.

(The asterisk is because Frozen Angel has a night/day difference in her town/scum metas. I'm 100% sure that if you know which meta is which, you can have a guaranteed read on her. I

think

that this is the town meta, but I'm not sure. I COULD be getting it backwards, thinking her scum meta is her town meta and thinking her town meta is her scum meta, but I THINK that I am remembering which is which correctly and that this is the town meta for her.)

Spoiler: To Cosmos Mafia's same area of,

You literally just shaded me again and are saying you are not shading me in the same breath

StD moves to my highest tier of locktown, and FA moves down to more scum (with an asterisk admittedly).

I do agree with you that mastina's read on STD is a bit off. I don't feel like his content at the time when she made the read, was exactly that Towny.
UNVOTE: FA for now.

Frozen Angel also has a town/scum meta that are night/day different. The asterisk to my read on FA here is that I don't know which is which.

I KNOW that FA has a night/day difference in her town meta and her scum meta.
I'm PRETTY sure that this is the night half, that this is the scum half, that this is FA as scum. But the asterisk on my read is that I might be remembering it backwards. I'm PRETTY sure I'm getting it right that this is the scum half tho.

she specifically said she has no idea what she is doing with her meta read on me

Not true!

I know exactly what I am doing with you.

Your play is night and day different between your scumgames and towngames--that's a fact. Your townplay is nothing like your scumplay; your scumplay is nothing like your townplay. That is true.

These metas are very distinct and very obvious and very noticeable. That is true.

You are 100% playing to one of the two metas. You are absolutely in one of those two metas, not blurring it, not blending it, not hiding it, fitting that meta to a T. That is true.

All of this means I know exactly what I'm doing with my meta on you; I know all of the above is true.

The one and only area I falter in is knowing which meta is which.

You are either 100% town, or 100% scum, with absolutely no in-between. There's no room where your content is 75% towngame with 25% being scum, or 75% scumgame with 25% town. It is 100% fully and entirely in the established meta for the alignment you are. If you are scum then you are playing your scum meta to a T; if you are town, then you are playing your town meta to a T. Most players as town never have 100% of their towngame, and most players as scum never have 100% of your scumgame.

But you, whatever your alignment is, do have that 100%.

The one question is which alignment is which.

And I'm pretty sure this is the scumgame, from my memory.

That ain't me not knowing what I'm talking about. I know EXACTLY what I am talking about and it is guaranteed to be true. You're playing to an established meta, with zero divergence from said meta whatsoever. And the meta you are playing I

think

is the scum one.

(Spoiler alert: FA was town in this game and scum in Cosmos Mafia, which is exactly what my read was in both games. )

Then compare

Spoiler: this from this game:

Yo, sorry I can't post tonight, am half an hour late for bed, will do so tomorrow. (I am quite angry due to work eating up all of today because guess who had to work a double shift today??? Eating up 10 hours of the day for work??? I am already going to get only 5.5 hours of sleep at most so like. I legit can't post here. Or, well. I could--it'd just be a very very very bad idea to. )

I usually prefer to include some kind of content in my prod dodge promises for more, but I am genuinely so out of time that I can't even do that. I need to catch up on page 27 onwards tomorrow; see you then (unless more bullshit like today gets in the way).

To

Spoiler: the Cosmos Mafia,

(I'm somewhat miffed since I got a SURPRISE!!! double-shift today meaning I had to work an extra 5 hours. Guess which 5 hours I was planning to post in this game today during??? )

(Obviously quite angry about this btw since it genuinely means the entirety of today was lost to work. Woke up, was barely not late for work. Worked my normal work schedule. Then, BAM. Had to work a second shift of equal length to the first. Then the moment I got home, busy doing prep for tomorrow, and even hauling my ass trying to not be late, I am half an hour late. So I'm not exaggerating in having lost an ENTIRE day to work and I am quite miffed about it.)

This game:

Okay so like.

I promised a catchup today both in the PT and the game thread.

I ran out of time, sorry.

Cosmos Mafia:

(I do need to leave tho, I'm late for bed. Technically not because 20 minutes from now, but since it'll take me twice that long to finish bed prep am already late. So p20 is my cutoff, sorry. I tried!)

The biggie tho,

Spoiler: this game:

I'm late for leaving for work but I have to say: any mentions of me not doing things should perhaps pay attention to how I was last active on Friday, I take Saturdays off, and then I got blindsided by a double-shift on Sunday that instead of leaving me with 8 hours of free time left me with only two and that for the last two days I have done literally everything I can to stay afloat but I'm not there yet because I genuinely haven't had the time thanks to the work double-shift.

But that content IS coming. Today I should have more time.

Spoiler: The Cosmos Mafia version:

I'm late for leaving for work but I have to say: any mentions of me not doing things should perhaps pay attention to how I was last active on Friday, I take Saturdays off, and then I got blindsided by a double-shift on Sunday that instead of leaving me with 8 hours of free time left me with only two and that for the last two days I have done literally everything I can to stay afloat but I'm not there yet because I genuinely haven't had the time thanks to the work double-shift. (Proof I haven't had time: if I had the time, I would've been reading the scum PT from Datisi's cafe and commenting on that game's scum PT's contents. I haven't, because that PT released either Saturday or Sunday, and lo and behold, I haven't been able to read it yet because I haven't had the time.)

But that content IS coming. Today I should have more time.

I am not going to respond to everything but why haven't I "updated" my read on FA?

Because my read is fucking accurate, that's why. Why update a read that's right? I know I'm right about my read there.

Why haven't I confirmed my 90% by looking for recent FA games to push it to 100%?

Because I fucking haven't had the time since before Saturday, that's why.
And before that, nobody had asked me to, so being a procrastinator that's highly a reactive player, I simply didn't think to. After people DID ask, I would love to have--but they didn't start asking until around Saturday.

And another biggie,

Spoiler: This game:

Btw I have been in a bad mood since Saturday (technically Friday night and onward) and haven't recovered since then. I was in a bad mood Sunday for even more obvious reasons, and my bad mood continued into yesterday.

Today is no different. I am still in a bad mood, worsened by being a hot mess. I was 40 minutes late waking up, still didn't get enough sleep in spite of that, had poor quality sleep, dealt with a wardrobe malfunction, left home without eating breakfast, was 20 minutes late for work, didn’t feed two very hungry cats, and more.

So, if I come across as overly hostile, my apologies. Best I can hope for is that this isn’t going to come across as a personal attack. I normally wouldn't post during times that I'm this angry since they risk getting me removed from the game and/or banned, but I genuinely have no choice but to.

On that note:
I realize that scumastina is well-known for falling behind.
But anyone trying to use that to shade me can fuck off. There's VERY obvious reasons for my inactivity here and struggling to stay up to date. Those factors happen regardless of my alignment and are thus NAI because they are rl-related.

What IS alignment indicative is my RESPONSE to the rl shit.
As scum, I literally do nothing when rl shit hits. The reasons vary, the results are near-universal: literally doing nothing.
And don't you fucking dare try to say, "but mastina, you're doing nothing right now".
I very clearly am not doing LITERALLY nothing.
When I say scumastina does literally nothing, I mean LITERALLY NOTHING BUT PROD DODGING, zero content in the prodges. Literally. Zero.

You can say I'm not doing MUCH right now, but that "not much" is still higher than the absolute zero which is the actual scumastina tell. I, very clearly, am trying.

On that note, more about my FA read in this game:
My FA read in this game is very similar to my StD read in the two concurrent games, Pokémon Gen1+2 and Gypyx's AI Upick.
I knew that StD had a night/day difference between his town play and his scumplay, but I didn’t remember which was which.
I could tell that he was playing to his meta, but I initially didn’t have the time to sort which was which. Like FA is this game, I had a fairly high level of confidence in remembering the tell differentiating his towngame and scumgame. But I didn’t have the time to research which was which, until much much later.

So while I knew that there was a night/day difference between his alignments, I didn't know for SURE which was which. My read on him was only about 90%, until I had the time to do the research.

That took weeks for me to find the time to do, but once I finally DID do the research, the 90% jumped to 100%.

Same story here.
I know FA has a night/day difference between her towngame and scumgame, same way StD did back then.
I am pretty sure that I know which is which, at 90%, same as back then for StD.
But I haven't had the time to do the research YET. It took weeks, closer to MONTHS, for me to find the time to do that for StD.

And here, it hasn't been weeks closer to months for FA, now, has it?
So, I WILL do the research. When I have the time. I just haven't yet, because, y'know.
Too much rl shit.

I'm still confident that this is the town half for FA tho.

Spoiler: Cosmos Mafia:

Btw I have been in a bad mood since Saturday (technically Friday night and onward) and haven't recovered since then. I was in a bad mood Sunday for even more obvious reasons, and my bad mood continued into yesterday.

Today is no different. I am still in a bad mood, worsened by being a hot mess. I was 40 minutes late waking up, still didn't get enough sleep in spite of that, had poor quality sleep, dealt with a wardrobe malfunction, left home without eating breakfast, was 20 minutes late for work, didn’t feed two very hungry cats, and more.

So, if I come across as overly hostile, my apologies. Best I can hope for is that this isn’t going to come across as a personal attack. I normally wouldn't post during times that I'm this angry since they risk getting me removed from the game and/or banned, but I genuinely have no choice but to.

On that note:
I realize that scumastina is well-known for falling behind.
But anyone trying to use that to shade me can fuck off. There's VERY obvious reasons for my inactivity here and struggling to stay up to date. Those factors happen regardless of my alignment and are thus NAI because they are rl-related.

What IS alignment indicative is my RESPONSE to the rl shit.
As scum, I literally do nothing when rl shit hits. The reasons vary, the results are near-universal: literally doing nothing.
And don't you fucking dare try to say, "but mastina, you're doing nothing right now".
I very clearly am not doing LITERALLY nothing.
When I say scumastina does literally nothing, I mean LITERALLY NOTHING BUT PROD DODGING, zero content in the prodges. Literally. Zero.

You can say I'm not doing MUCH right now, but that "not much" is still higher than the absolute zero which is the actual scumastina tell. I, very clearly, am trying.

On that note, more about my FA read in this game:
My FA read in this game is very similar to my StD read in the two concurrent games, Pokémon Gen1+2 and Gypyx's AI Upick.
I knew that StD had a night/day difference between his town play and his scumplay, but I didn’t remember which was which.
I could tell that he was playing to his meta, but I initially didn’t have the time to sort which was which. Like FA is this game, I had a fairly high level of confidence in remembering the tell differentiating his towngame and scumgame. But I didn’t have the time to research which was which, until much much later.

So while I knew that there was a night/day difference between his alignments, I didn't know for SURE which was which. My read on him was only about 90%, until I had the time to do the research.

That took weeks for me to find the time to do, but once I finally DID do the research, the 90% jumped to 100%.

Same story here.
I know FA has a night/day difference between her towngame and scumgame, same way StD did back then.
I am pretty sure that I know which is which, at 90%, same as back then for StD.
But I haven't had the time to do the research YET. It took weeks, closer to MONTHS, for me to find the time to do that for StD.

And here, it hasn't been weeks closer to months for FA, now, has it?
So, I WILL do the research. When I have the time. I just haven't yet, because, y'know.
Too much rl shit.

I'm pretty sure that this is the scum half for FA tho.

On the note of StD tho, since those games where I did the research, since then, I've not been wrong on my StD read since then. After I did my homework, my read rate on him became flawless.

Which is why I know that he's town this game.

I am sure that in a future FA game, I'll point to this game and say the same for her then as I'm saying for StD now.

And more,

Spoiler: This game:

Btw for the record, I don’t really have the time nor energy to write a detailed wall HERE right now.
But.
I would strongly encourage people to do a site search of my posts (just the first two or three pages should tell you what you need to know), because I have just...not done anything but mafia for nearly a full week. Playing, not commenting.

What that means, well.
I don’t feel like fully explaining it here, too much effort to word the idea in terms of THIS game, but like.

Keeping it short:
I'm giving up on trying to explain my reads. Maybe even defending the town in them. I just don’t have it in me right now.

But that said.
Uniquely, I am not giving up on my reads.

Not the majority of them, at least.

Because I'm right, I know I'm right, I've been right all along, I'll be VINDICATED sooner or later.

But while most of my reads are good, I just give up on explaining them.

I'll go over which reads are which when I getore free time, maybe next down.

The

Spoiler: Cosmos Mafia original:

I know that saying this secures me as the elimination because if I were the one READING it, I'd call it scum AtE, especially since it is a very un-mastina-like thing to do. (And yes, that saying this, literally all of it, doesn’t make it any less scum.)

But to be honest.
Right now I'm not feeling like pretending to be mastina.

Or rather, I don’t want to feel boxed in to pretending to be what I know mastina is. I don’t have the time I wanted to talk about this, but I had a thought of,
"Why do I even bother."
I had the urge to post that, but a voice told me, "hey, that's not a thought that mastina should have, don't display it publicly".

And it's not!

It doesn't fit my style as either alignment. I don’t post that way as scum, I don't post that way as town, it's a very foreign concept to the mastina persona.

But I don’t feel like pretending to match the mastina persona right now.

I know that I have been in my towngame the entire time, and to briefly go back into the mastina persona:
Genuinely, if you are town, you NEVER get to EVER say you can read me again, EVER, if you scumread me. This is Genuinely one of my towniest games of all time, and if you can't see that, you don’t fucking know how to read me. And never pretend you can, because this isn’t an unusual game from me. This IS me.

Well, prior to this post, at least. But this single not-mastina post does not erase that my entire play prior to this WAS mastina. So if you thought that my content prior to this post wasn't me as town: NEVER claim that you can read me again. I will quote this post every. Single. Time. And will NOT let you forget.

But slipping back out of mastina mode, I had those thoughts.
"Why do I even try."
"What's the point of trying."
"I don’t know why I bother."
And even,
"I give up."

mastina never gives up. It's literally against her fundamental philosophy.

Scumastina believes in fighting to the bitter end. Even when she's literally confscum, she believes that the game isn’t over until the last scum dies. And if she's the last scum, she might know that she has a 0% chance of winning, but for good sport, she refuses to surrender and makes the town still work for the inevitable victory.
And in multiball, she has extra incentive to fight. If she goes down, her scumteam is pretty much fucked. (Multiball2 is notably an exception to this rule, because I was negative utility there. It was my belief that we couldn't win with me alive, so I needed to die. After setting FL up for success, obv.)

Town mastina is relentless. She is conviction personified. Absolute faith in herself to be right, no matter what. Being proven wrong isn’t a setback. And new evidence doesn't change prior reads, barring extreme circumstances.
She pushes, continuously, hard, with absolute strength and resolve, with the belief that she is right.
Literally every game recently, a song has had some of the lyrics play through my mind, a personification of my mindset:
"And I am VINDICATED. I am selfish, (I'm not wrong), I'm right, I know I'm right, I've been that way all along". (Not the exact lyrics of the song, mind you; my mental paraphrase of it with all alterations is me claiming the song as mine.)

So when I say mastina never gives up, I mean it. She never does. Regardless of her alignment. The thought of giving up is foreign to her.

But I don't feel like putting on the mastina persona right now, because with how much shit I'm going through, I just DO feel like giving up.

I've literally broken every promise I made to myself for mafia games. I've skipped working out, slacked off on work, am typing in a mafia game rather than working on my novel or keeping up to date on the discord servers I frequent. I haven't streamed, done art, played league or tft (I literally missed out on a full week of tft quests, which guarantees I don’t get the T3 emote) or the new Disney Dreamlight event.

My life has been pretty much exclusively games (which shows if you do a site search--when was my last non-game post? When was my last not-ongoing mafia post?), and I am angry. I am tired. I am frustrated. I am exhausted.

The mastina persona is in particular furious, but I don’t have the ability to muster forth the will to type out that rage. (Oh there’s definitely facets who want me to. But I have the steering wheel, not them, so I'm not.)

There is just physical, mental, and especially emotional, fatigue going on.

So I just don’t feel like trying anymore.

I know that it’s not a mastina thing to do, but I want to say it anyway:

Objectively, I know that MathBlade's way of claiming is probably town, that there are signs of him not being scum, and importantly: that scum are among those who say it's SvS, those who weakly say it's TvT without trying to defuse it unless they have a good reason they can't (e.g. Titus is town, with this belief, but swamped), and those on the sidelines, with a few who are also scum taking the most convenient stance for them.

But subjectively, I feel like MB was crumbing my type of role (by the way--not claiming. Fuck that.), not a killing role, and that his claim fits as a modified factional nightkill, and that 90+% of his posting is scum.

Plus, without him, the options for scum are rather slim.
My locktowns are NEVER scum here. PPF, Yume, etc. Are all never scum.

And most of my townreads, I feel quite strongly about.

So like, the scum pool is quite small.

I know that objectively I should listen to objectivity, but I don't have a direction, so I just don’t know what to do and feel like giving up.

Another biggie from

Spoiler: This game:

yea ok thinking about it more i really don't like the "ive put too much energy into mafia lately so im not going to give reasons for my reads" immediately followed by a huge wall that is just reiterating what her reads are. like the energy used to make that post could have been put towards something useful instead but she went out of her way to excuse herself from doing that and then still put the energy in anyway

Well you don't understand the way my brain works. When I said I was done giving energy, I meant it. I'm done being mastina. I can't pretend to be mastina anymore. So I'm done acting like I am.

So instead of spending time being mastina, I decided to just. Not bother.

And then ADHD + mania (instead of depression) kicked in and I wanted to post something that was a partial override of the promise to not effort, but not a full override because it was actually much easier to write than normal. It was also done at work--energy at work is entirely different from energy at home.

Still, tho. There's liberation because I've felt the release of not having to be me anymore.
I realize you won't understand what I'm saying, but that's because you didn't actually do the thing I said you should do, now, did you?
I told you that if you checked my posts onsite in the last week, you'd be able to understand. (For that matter, my blog posts in the last week, too.) You didn't actually look at that, now, did you? So of course you wouldn't understand.

I don't feel like typing up the full version of a post on this but yes. I am done being mastina. The last week broke me, and it wasn't until I gave up on being mastina that I felt good. In this game I didn't describe this as well as I should have, I admit, but I'm not really going to bother with the details.

What you need to know right now is that I genuinely don't care.
I am

aware

of the wagon on me.
I don't

care

about the wagon on me.
The town on it have shit reasons, and there's plenty of scum on it, but honestly I am done putting in the energy to care.

But I'm done fighting for the reads in spite of being more sure than ever in the above being true.

What was going on in

Spoiler: Cosmos Mafia at the same time:

(The irony is not lost on me that normal mastina would see the post I just made as scum, believe me. I am quite aware of the sheer irony of how I would be pushing myself for making that post, in spite of me knowing that it’s town, and that me talking about it would make me even more sure it came from scum. The likes of Roden are probably laughing their asses off at the karmic irony.)

So the thing you maybe don't see is that you were already doing it.

I'm going to remind you of my philosophy to scum hunting, not so that we can argue, but so that maybe you could see what I see. Not every post is alignment indicative. Most posts a player makes are NAI, and what separates town and scum is finding the few that are.

Here's what I clocked very early from the game, before you described what you described in 1097. It is clear to me you have a vision of what town!Mastina needs to look like, and you are trying to make every post you make conform to that vision. If you are town, I would say needlessly. But you kinda voiced what I was observing all along.

What separates this for me from being something that is NAI, is your post #729 where you cite your first two posts of the game as some part of your master plan to catch scum. And I think you know what I know, that you were trying to play this up as something town!Mastina does. I don't know if you believe it for real. But I think you believe that other people would believe it, and that's why you made those parts of #729.

Normally I wouldn't sit here and explain to you why you're scum, because one way or another you know the truth. But maybe if we're to salvage the game in case you are town, considering another point of view on you might be helpful.

To me, #729 and some other bits of Mastina's posting shows me that she is trying to play the part of town!Mastina rather than be a town player. I think it's well documented how much Mastina believes in meta, and I think she believes in it so much that she feels forced to try and project her meta onto her gameplay. This isn't necessarily scum-indicative on its own, I think Mastina would do it to some extent as town. But from my point of view it crossed the line of town!Mastina needing to play a certain way to scum!Mastina needing everyone else to see a certain vision of her play.

Hopefully that bit of insight helps others too who are not sure what to think about Mastina.

This would be a good point if not for one crucial factor you leave out.

Living up to the concept of mastina is not exclusive to scumastina. (That, aside from how scumastina genuinely doesn't care to try to be town mastina, because scumastina has her own style which works in spite of being night/day different. Scumastina doesn’t even try to look like town mastina, because she knows that town mastina is a liability to try and mimic. I don't need to look like town as scum, nor do I need to effort nor force an elimination. All I need to do is not be the default elimination for a day, and let the town eliminate town. I don't need to push town, nor power town S scum. Because just the bare minimum works better as scum.)

I have a strong drive to live up to the ideal of mastina as town, too. Because mastina is an IDEA, a CONCEPT.
mastina is a philosophy.

The philosophy is different as different alignments. Scumastina, find the easiest least effort path to victory where I can be the laziest.

Town mastina, to be a charismatic unwavering force of nature. Unrelenting. Never giving up on true beliefs, and holding plenty of them.

I always feel the pressure of trying to live up to the expectation, and usually I do.

But this he'll week, I just can't.

I give up on being mastina.

(The irony is not lost on me that normal mastina would see the post I just made as scum, believe me. I am quite aware of the sheer irony of how I would be pushing myself for making that post, in spite of me knowing that it’s town, and that me talking about it would make me even more sure it came from scum. The likes of Roden are probably laughing their asses off at the karmic irony.)

So the thing you maybe don't see is that you were already doing it.

I'm going to remind you of my philosophy to scum hunting, not so that we can argue, but so that maybe you could see what I see. Not every post is alignment indicative. Most posts a player makes are NAI, and what separates town and scum is finding the few that are.

Here's what I clocked very early from the game, before you described what you described in 1097. It is clear to me you have a vision of what town!Mastina needs to look like, and you are trying to make every post you make conform to that vision. If you are town, I would say needlessly. But you kinda voiced what I was observing all along.

What separates this for me from being something that is NAI, is your post #729 where you cite your first two posts of the game as some part of your master plan to catch scum. And I think you know what I know, that you were trying to play this up as something town!Mastina does. I don't know if you believe it for real. But I think you believe that other people would believe it, and that's why you made those parts of #729.

Normally I wouldn't sit here and explain to you why you're scum, because one way or another you know the truth. But maybe if we're to salvage the game in case you are town, considering another point of view on you might be helpful.

To me, #729 and some other bits of Mastina's posting shows me that she is trying to play the part of town!Mastina rather than be a town player. I think it's well documented how much Mastina believes in meta, and I think she believes in it so much that she feels forced to try and project her meta onto her gameplay. This isn't necessarily scum-indicative on its own, I think Mastina would do it to some extent as town. But from my point of view it crossed the line of town!Mastina needing to play a certain way to scum!Mastina needing everyone else to see a certain vision of her play.

Hopefully that bit of insight helps others too who are not sure what to think about Mastina.

This would be a good point if not for one crucial factor you leave out.

Living up to the concept of mastina is not exclusive to scumastina. (That, aside from how scumastina genuinely doesn't care to try to be town mastina, because scumastina has her own style which works in spite of being night/day different. Scumastina doesn’t even try to look like town mastina, because she knows that town mastina is a liability to try and mimic. I don't need to look like town as scum, nor do I need to effort nor force an elimination. All I need to do is not be the default elimination for a day, and let the town eliminate town. I don't need to push town, nor power town S scum. Because just the bare minimum works better as scum.)

I have a strong drive to live up to the ideal of mastina as town, too. Because mastina is an IDEA, a CONCEPT.
mastina is a philosophy.

The philosophy is different as different alignments. Scumastina, find the easiest least effort path to victory where I can be the laziest.

Town mastina, to be a charismatic unwavering force of nature. Unrelenting. Never giving up on true beliefs, and holding plenty of them.

I always feel the pressure of trying to live up to the expectation, and usually I do.

But this he'll week, I just can't.

I give up on being mastina.

Oh worth mentioning:
You're right about one thing tho:

I know my meta best.

I know me better than everyone else.

When I am scum, I know exactly how scum I am. I know that I am not playing to my towngame. I might--justifiably--feel like certain aspects of my play are dead on mimicking my towngame, but while I might fake a post saying as much, no, I never truly believe that I have perfected a town-mastina guise as scumastina. Not only would doing so be detrimental even if I succeeded, but also the task is literally impossible.

You cannot mimic the full package of my towngame. It’s literally impossible. I fundamentally think differently as town versus scum. Language use, emotions, everything is night and day different. (We suspect that it’s literally different facets playing, but since we haven't had a scumgame since our plurality breakthrough, we wouldn't know yet. We'll have to rand scum to actually test that.)

If it's quite literally an entirely different person playing when town vs. Scum, then that person cannot fully pretend to be the other. (Which is why we don’t actually try.)

So with that said:

We know our meta, and thus, we know that we were not outside of it. In fact, we're doubling down on this statement:

This is the towniest game that we have EVER played in our entire mafia career. We have NEVER been this more clearly town. EVER.

I can't manage to be mastina right now, but that doesn't change how I still know what my meta is, and how I was in my town meta more clearly than I have ever been before. Literally the towniest game I have EVER had.


So let me reiterate:
If I am eliminated, then EVERY town player has their reading rights on me revoked PERMANENTLY.
My not being able to be mastina doesn't remove that I was still clearly town in spite of struggling to be mastina. In fact it's quite literally the exact opposite.

So I will quote this in EVERY future game you play with me in where you so much as HINT at having me south as null.
I. Will. NOT. Let. You. Forget.

Because I am NOT having an "off game".
I'm not able to be mastina, but I AM able to be clearly town anyway.
This IS my town self.
Try to fucking pretend it wasn't as much as you'd like. I know myself better than you do. I know my meta better than you do. So I know that I was playing to my town meta here.
And thus, future you has ZERO wiggling room to claim otherwise.

If you can't see that I'm town here, you can't fucking see that I am town in ANY game. PERIOD. Because if you can't see me as town in the towniest game that I have ever had, you can't see me as town at all.

Spoiler: This game:

My meta on Mastina is basically:
Will Mastina have a meltdown?
Y: Scum.
N: Town.

For the record, I've never had a meltdown as scum (I'm sure you'll say this is wrong and have a scumgame in mind where you think I did, but I guarantee you that whatever game you are thinking of, that was not in fact an actual scum meltdown because I know my meta and know I've never had a meltdown as scum), so this meta is literally backwards, but it's honestly not worth fighting--my flip will show your meta's wrong, so like. Not worth bothering with it.

One day later

Spoiler: in Cosmos Mafia:

Actually the flow chart says a lot of Mastina's behavior means she's town if you're not trying to confirm bias yourself.

It does, for the record.

But like. Not worth bothering to explain why.

When I said I was done being mastina I meant it. So that includes not bothering to explain why this is a mastina towngame. The flip will do the talking for me and prove that everyone claiming to be able to read me thinking I am scum, is either scum lying their asses off or town that was delusional. Because the people who actually

can

(the likes of PPF, Yume, DDS), have me as one of their strongest townreads.

1722 has a Cosmos Mafia counterpart, too, somewhere. Maybe this?

If I ever host a Theme game, I am doing post caps.

For the record, that wouldn't actually impact me.

I have less posts than you would assume. T-Bone literally has more than me. 6/16 players have higher post counts than me. I'm literally only the seventh-most-active poster in the game.

I just always SEEM like the most active poster because I'm like a signal boost for activity in games.

Every game I am in causes the actual top posters to post more, and there's a night and day difference in posting activity between pre-mastina-death and post-mastina-death; activity drops off a cliff after I die because I am a source of activity in spite of it not being reflected in post count.

That's one of the reasons I like being mastina normally. That's the mastina affect. mastina's approach makes people be forced to be more active, basically. I just can't keep being her right now.

This game

Spoiler: had this,

idk i did go read mastina's most recent scum game and i don't think this is really accurate, she's not like incapable of progression as scum. but i think there she was a lot less willing to go into detail on reasoning or respond to new posts and stuff. and i think the level to which she's doing that here is closer to that than it is to her play in datisi's cafe as town

It should be noted that that was both a multiball game (I could get real read progression, not needing to fake it), and also I had a negative utility role so I knew from the onset that I needed to die for my team to stand a chance (so I deliberately didn't want to go into too much detail, as to avoid spewing players town after I flipped).

What a lot of folks don't seem to get is that there's more than one mastina scumgame style (but most of them have in common: "find the least-effort way to easiest generate a scum win", the shortest path to victory, doing the least amount necessary, and in general, not relying on myself to carry), and there's more than one town mastina style, and that both are affected by real life factors, and that being affected by those real life factors doesn't change those alignments, it just changes the representation of them. And most people get those affected-by-rl representations wrong.

It's not really worth going into detail tho, because my flip will do the talking for me in demonstrating once more that basically everyone who claims to know my meta, is bullshitting, because if they

did

know my meta they would know I was town.

At around the same time

Spoiler: Cosmos Mafia had this:

I didn't comment on her emotions, I can't pretend to know what they are, and frustration is NAI.

Actually, frustration is far far far from NAI. There are frustrations that only appear as town, there are frustrations that appear more frequently as scum, and then there are rl frustrations that

in of themselves

are nai (being rl and all), but their

manifestation

is actually some of the most alignment-indicative things you can get.

Here they spew me town but it's not worth fighting about.

I've yet to misread Mastina in any game I've played with her over the years.

Apparently that was luck since you're looking at the towniest towngame I've ever had and calling it scum, so like. Whatever metrics you used were apparently flawed, since they can't see that I'm town here, so...

I'll be honest getting concerned by Mathblade. It may be recency bias, but last time I ignored red flags he ended up being scum. I keep having to correct him and point what I feel is obvious. I also can't believe I'm saying this but in his effort to meet Yume with the flow chart he's purposely reading it wrong. To be clear the flow chart is garbage, but that he's doing it wrong anyway...

(The flowchart is a bit outdated but is not actually garbage, the flowchart is more an idea than anything else, the idea being a process that boils down to: "scumastina can show any single town trait that a town mastina is more well known for, but can't display the entire package. Town mastina can't display the entire package, either, because the package is contradictory, but she displays a whole heck of a lot more of her town traits when town".

By "everyone claiming to be able to read" you, are you referring to the people on your wagon that are strongly SRing you like Math and professotic?

You apparently didn't read very well.

everyone claiming to be able to read me

thinking I am scum

, is either scum lying their asses off or town that was delusional. Because

the people who actually

can

(the likes of PPF, Yume, DDS), have me as one of their strongest townreads

.

I don't see how that can be more clear?

The people claiming to be able to read me who have me as town are right, and accurate.
I believe those four players to be credible in their claims to be able to read me well. (Notably, you may note that furtive is not on that list in spite of him townreading me, because he lacks that credibility.)

I don't know the alignments of the people claiming to be able to read me who have me as scum--but since I am town, those claims are wrong. That leaves exactly two possibilities for them. They're scum lying their asses off or town whose metrics on how to read me were just outright wrong.

I've stated which players I feel to be which.

And as you know meta doesn't move me. I need Mastina to show me, and if she's town she will, and if she's scum she won't.

You apparently weren't listening when I said I was done being mastina.

I've no interest in showing you I'm town. I would've if I were still trying to be mastina but I honestly don't give a fuck anymore. If you can't see I'm town from what I gave already then it's really not worth bothering with. It doesn't matter to me--you're the one who has to live with the consequences for being part of a mastina mislim, not me.

I don't even have strong reads to leave behind, aside from the four townreads I have. I'd prefer the town not go after you, but even that read isn't nearly as certain as my four towniest reads.

Dealing with the frustration of the rl shit which was going on (I had a really shitty week at work) and power-efforting in

both

games

at the same time

and yet being

run up in both

, I had the attitude of "fuck claiming my role", which

Spoiler: here you got to see as,

Mastina has already claimed in the hood btw.

My biggest regret right now because it means I can't actually go "fuck that" to the idea of claiming since I literally already did, a fullclaim from the onset pretty much. (Less than 48 hours into the game.) My neighborhood can claim my role publicly at literally any time, meaning that I can't

actually

say "you want my claim, you flip me" or similar.

Alas.

Is the consequence of the early claim in there, but oh well.

Consider this an honorary "fuck claiming" tho. If I hadn't claimed already in the neighborhood, I wouldn't be claiming at all. But since I can't undo having claimed in there, my role is known if it's really that big of a deal.

I honestly don't care to tho.

The only things that are important are that I am town,
My flip will prove one of these true, the rest will follow with time, too.

And in

Spoiler: Cosmos Mafia,

Mastina you wanna claim?

If you want my claim,

you need look no further than this post:

(by the way--not claiming. Fuck that.)

It's in there! You should try reading it.

Suffice to say, the games were intertwined and interlinked in a way that was overwhelming, exhausting, and left me just...needing a break (before the mods force me on one which they might do anyway tbh).

I was playing this game, and Warrior Cats, at

exactly

the same time.
I was power-efforting in both games.
I had a really shitty real life week hit me hard, and that negatively impacted both games, because I just couldn't handle all the shit going on.
I was stressed and was being run up in

both games

at

exactly the same time

(for largely the same reasons, mind you), and it just was.

Well, I need a break before the listmods force me onto one (which they might anyway and it'd be fully deserved. Redundant, since I don't wanna play anyway, but deserved).

[mastina]

(I'll say that objectively speaking I technically had pretty good reads since I scumread 4/5 of the original scum, but:
-The one scum I didn't scumread undoes any and all goodness of the four scumreads, and then,
-The multiple bad scumreads (MathBlade, professotic, unwnd as the big three) then catapult the game into objectively terrible.

Or you could list those vice-versa I guess; I technically had pretty good reads since I scumread 4/5 of the original scum, but the multiple bad scumreads undid all the potential goodness of the four correct scumreads, and then the ONE scum I didn't scumread drags it further down into terrible.

Either way, not a good game from me. I want to be proud, but I literally can't be. There's just nothing but bad things, because that's all I've become and why I need a long break to just...not be...this.)

[mastina]

Subject: Cosmos Mafia: Dead PT

Spoiler: To MMR squad

I'm surprised you didn't have a partner make a claim instead of you to be honest. I suppose it came as a surprise and prompted quick action though.

Spoiler:

I kinda saw Yume's post, felt opportunistic and then immediately decided to make a reaction test.
Unfortunately, everything backfired.
-Rubella

LMFAO I FUCKING CALLED IT

DID I NOT SAY EXACTLY THIS

(I don't know where I said it exactly but I did--accurately--speculate you did precisely that.)