mystery box of silver 15: i'm killing hostages (negotiated)

[Ranger]

{Doctor Drew}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{DKKoba}
{Skygazer}

[Ranger]

VOTE: DKKoba
Because why not.

[Ranger]

{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{DKKoba}
{HighPrincessErinys}

P1

[Ranger]

{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{DKKoba}
{xyzzy}
{HighPrincessErinys}

P2

[Ranger]

{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Morning Tweet}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{DKKoba}
{xyzzy}
{HighPrincessErinys}

Current.

[Ranger]

Pooky is 100% not mafia because hes doing the thing

I'll believe that.

Damn, ouch.

Be townier. :P

{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{Morning Tweet}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{DKKoba}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{xyzzy}

P3.

[Ranger]

I don't know why I'm so low.

You're neither low nor high, honestly. Most slots are varying shades of null; yours is the closest to true null.

Also, if you could explain your thoughts on HPE being bottomed out, I'd appreciate it.

It's been a while since we played together, yet the HighPrincessErinys I played with last, I remember instantly provided townvibes absent here. Granted, I

was

scum. Still, this HPE felt somehow different.

The only three slots I really am interested in voting are {DKKoba, xyzzy, HPE} rn.

[Ranger]

{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{Morning Tweet}
{iamveryhappy}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{xyzzy}

P5

[Ranger]

Why is the dr. drew town for instance?

It's weak, but he vibes town so far.

[Ranger]

Why is the dr. drew town for instance?

It's weak, but he vibes town so far.

This is basically a non answer

This is basically rvs, of course it's a nonanswer. I'm not going to lie and say I've locked a read on someone when all my reads are weak.

[Ranger]

Forgot to mention this earlier;

V/LA Sunday - Monday for remainder of month;
V/LA unspecified indefinitely;
V/LA this week through Saturday

Work for the first, helping friend for the second, and wedding prep for the third.

I'll be completely unavailable tomorrow.

My hope is to provide content today. I might not succeed. If so, it'll be delayed until Wednesday.

[Ranger]

{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{Morning Tweet}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{iamveryhappy}
{The Buldge}
{RCEnigma}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}

P7.

[Ranger]

{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{Morning Tweet}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{iamveryhappy}
{The Buldge}
{Dannflor}
{RCEnigma}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}

P8.

[Ranger]

{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{The Buldge}
{Morning Tweet}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{iamveryhappy}
{Dannflor}
{RCEnigma}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}

P9.

[Ranger]

{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{The Buldge}
{SirCakez}
{Morning Tweet}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{iamveryhappy}
{Dannflor}
{RCEnigma}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}

P10.

[Ranger]

{SirCakez}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{Alisae}
{The Buldge}
{Morning Tweet}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{iamveryhappy}
{Dannflor}
{RCEnigma}
{xyzzy}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}

P11.

[Ranger]

{SirCakez, PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{The Buldge}
{Alisae}
{Dannflor}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{Morning Tweet}
{iamveryhappy}
{RCEnigma}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{xyzzy}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}

P12.

[Ranger]

ranger stop reading, explain your progression on my slot. now.

Recency bias. I've not seen xyzzy post more recently to see their scumminess. I hadn't seen HighPrincessErinys post recently to see their scumminess. I did see you and ofrhz post. I also have seen the interactions of you with other slots, and the caliber of the players who scumread you, as well as their cases. In particular, I believe Pooky's was good.

xyzzy will likely plummet down the moment I see them post again and am reminded why I put them so low.

[Ranger]

{SirCakez, PookyTheMagicalBear}
{Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{The Buldge}
{Alisae}
{Dannflor}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{BlueSnakelet}
{Morning Tweet}
{iamveryhappy}
{RCEnigma}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}

P13.

[Ranger]

{SirCakez, PookyTheMagicalBear, Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{The Buldge}
{Alisae}
{Dannflor}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{BlueSnakelet}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{Morning Tweet}
{iamveryhappy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{RCEnigma}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}

P14.

[Ranger]

Hi Ranger, would you like to put your read of me into words?

I know nothing of you, yet you look like scum.

[Ranger]

why is meuh so much higher than me

Meuh naturally vibes as town.

You radiate scum.

[Ranger]

{SirCakez, PookyTheMagicalBear, Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{The Buldge}
{Alisae}
{Dannflor}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{BlueSnakelet}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{iamveryhappy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}
{DKKoba}

P15.

[Ranger]

link to actual in game stuff pls

Nah. That's effort. If asked about a change in reads between two pages, I'm happy to share, within my capacities. Otherwise, don't see the point.

[Ranger]

there is no case against me

There's enough of one for me.

I think your posting's scum. My reason's gut. I don't need more, tbh.

[Ranger]

like u clearly havent actually read what pooky has said bc he didnt actually have a scumread when he initially pushed me LMAO so wondering where the trust came from

His read matched mine, that was enough to trust it. Reads build off each other.

[Ranger]

ranger, please explain to me why you thought this was a good case

It tracked, I saw you scum independently, so I believe it has merit.

[Ranger]

ngl i also dont get the strong townread on pooky bc pooky has not towntold yet

Objectively, sure.

I vibe him town.

[Ranger]

their posts are townier than several players you put in your upper half, including alisae for instance:

The posts you say are town, I see the opposite on. For Alisae, I just don't think eir scum this game. Honestly hard to put words to that read. It's fairly solid, yet indescribable. I've reasons, just not ones I know how to explain rn.

[Ranger]

which posts radiate scum?

Honestly, all of them. (I really hate that response, yet it applies.) Everything I've seen has made me think scum, not town. It's possible I'm biased. Still, I see what I see and I don't see anything town about you rn.

[Ranger]

can't explain ur reads bc theyre not real and just arbitrary tbh

Depends on perspective, honestly. I make snap judgement calls and place people accordingly. Anything can change at any time. None of my reads are particularly solid, not even the scumread on you. I don't see the town vibes from you and see consistent scum vibes. Despite this, you're far weaker a scumread than players I've scumread in other games who I

did

see the townvibes of. There's players I've seen as more town than you who I scumread more than you. In that sense they're very arbitrary.

This said, you've seen my games before. I know you have. You're pretending you haven't. So rn, you're being disingenuous. You already know the process I operate by.

[Ranger]

393 and 394 are just tautologies
"Why do you scumread me"
"Because you look like scum"

Well yeah. We're still in early game. If someone claims they've got a slam-dunk case for scumreading someone, they're lying. Everything's weak rn. Gut's the most valid reason for a scumread at this stage. We're slowly transitioning out of that with posts like this though, as I believe this was a bad faith argument.

[Ranger]

I think ranger thinks I'm awesome

Eh, I guess. You're respectably competent. You've excellent knowledge on particular players. You've good insights. You had a read I resonated with. I suppose that qualifies as thinking you're awesome.

[Ranger]

what is different this game from ur scumgames?

I don't recall claiming there was anything different.

I recall stating you're familiar with my play enough to know your accusations are nonsense.

I'm unable to judge the difference between my games. That's reserved exclusively for others. I've a right to intervene when someone is deliberately and disingenuously pushing me on something they know is playstyle. I casually tryhard. Minimal effort. A lot of what I do is subject to both whims and rl restrictions. If I don't feel like doing something, I won't. If I do, I will.

[Ranger]

viewtopic.php?t=66605&user_select%5B%5D=26805 ranger scumgame, u can see they do the same silly "just trust me" reads where they just say call things "towny" or "scummy"

Nice try. That was a game from nine years ago. I'm quite literally a different person now. While I imagine there's aspects of my scumgame from then which survived the transition, it's certainly not the argument you're making it out to be and you know it.

[Ranger]

an example of town ranger actually capable of elaborating on a read

I don't recall stating I'm incapable of elaborating on reads. I certainly can. I'm never obligated to.

[Ranger]

i provided proof my accusations are not nonsense, burden of proof is on you, dont try to deflect

I certainly can. It's called the vast majority of my games, rather than cherrypicking whatever suits your fancy to support your argument.

I've given plenty of nonanswers before as town, and plenty of reasons before as scum. In fact, were I to actually compile my past game history, the vast majority of nonanswers would be from town and the vast majority of reasons would be from scum. I certainly could prove this. I see no reason to when literally anyone who's played with me (yourself included) knows it, and could research it themselves if they cared to.

I've been called out on seemingly-random changes in my readslists before. When called out, my response in all past games has been the same; if a change between them catches your eye, ask what shifted and I'll happily share. I'm not going to effort by explaining the change otherwise.

[Ranger]

old meta is still relevant meta.

It certainly can be. I'm not one to judge. However, selecting meta from one of my first scumgames onsite rather than my most recent one is sure an interesting choice. I can literally point to evidence from that game of my play this game being nothing remotely like my play here. There's certainly some similarities, which have survived the test of time. Still, arguing as you have is akin to saying "Ranger made repeatedly changing readslists in an old scumgame, Ranger is making repeatedly changing readslists in this game, therefore Ranger is scum".

While I've no say on how players judge my meta, I can certainly point the egregious nature of cherrypicking specific aspects from my oldest scumgame and arguing those playstyle elements being present indicate I'm scum here. I was quite literally, not figuratively, literally a different person back then. I remember precious little of my Blitz-era game days, because I wasn't playing them. Our system has undergone massive changes. Pretending those can be ignored and cherrypicking one instance of a vague similarity is disingenuous, and we know you know better than that.

[Ranger]

you certainly are obligated to elaborate if you respect the other players in the game

I respect the other players in the game.

I respect my time and life more than those of others in a forum mafia game. My obligation is to my life first and a game only as I can.

[Ranger]

Your reasoning is just circular, hence tautology

This is my bad. I may have misunderstood the meaning of tautology.
I'll say my reasoning isn't circular. "Why do you scumread me" "because you look like scum" isn't inherently circular. We can go into theory if you'd prefer; I believe you want this to be the focus of the discussion though:

I never said you had to have a slam dunk case on me or anyone else and I don't expect people to at this point, but if it's gut then you can say what pinged you or at the very least point out which posts pinged you

It is gut. I could probably point out what pinged. Right now, I don't feel like it. It's too much effort at this moment. I'll not give you false hopes and say "perhaps another time". There might not be any time I feel like it. I'll say if I feel like pointing out what pinged my gut, I will.

I realize it can be frustrating I'm choosing not to elaborate rn. As the game progresses, I'll either be inspired enough to provide my original initial reasons, or more likely, will share my newer reasons. I've no particular need to convince anyone of a read this early. When I feel there's a need to, I'll step up as much as I can.

[Ranger]

the number 1 way to read people is to examine their process.

True enough.

I've strong reason to believe you're not doing so for me.

[Ranger]

Koba bringing up an ancient ass game pings super weird when they most likely have much more recent experience with scum!Ranger but otherwise this one still doesn't super get the Koba wagon.

The only scumgame I've had since returning was the one you linked. I've been blessed with town alignments since. Perhaps someday, I'll receive another scumgame to not limit data to a single point. Alas, not yet.

You're correct about the oddity of DKKoba's focal point though.

[Ranger]

i want to see what YOU think is important to explain.

What's important to explain is what I have been explaining already.

I've no clue what my town/scumgame really are. I know they're

not

"Ranger explains as town and doesn't as scum". I know I explain changes between pages when asked, and nobody asked me beyond your initial inquiry, which I answered in full with all the reasoning which existed. I make readslists. I'm a casual tryhard. I like to snark, I like to flirt, I like to give advice, I prioritize fun over winning, I've gained a bad reputation for trolling recently, and that's...about all I know, honestly.

[Ranger]

i will always find the most recent game I can. The most recent Ranger scumgame was 2016. i must use that game then. I have no other choice.

Strange. I used your PT search method, and the first scumgame there is literally called "(partners+)Ranger MAFIA Thread". How was this not the "most recent" scumgame?

The first below that:
The Street Fighter Mafia PT. How was this not the "most recent" scumgame?

Bloodborne's scum PT is the

third

on the list.

[Ranger]

i will always find the most recent game I can. The most recent Ranger scumgame was 2016. i must use that game then. I have no other choice.

Strange. I used your PT search method, and the first scumgame there is literally called "(partners+)Ranger MAFIA Thread". How was this not the "most recent" scumgame?

The first below that:
The Street Fighter Mafia PT. How was this not the "most recent" scumgame?

Bloodborne's scum PT is the

third

on the list.

This was the Street Fighter Mafia game, for reference.

[Ranger]

it is accurate for a baseline at minimum. people's playstyles dont change that drastically unless its the difference between a young teenager and adult

Perhaps you're unaware of the timespan nine years is.

I

was

a teenager when I last played. Nine years is

nine years

. I'd hate to see your perception of time if you think nine years

isn't

the difference between a teenager and an adult.

[Ranger]

does town ranger elaborate on every read she has ever made?

Almost never. It can happen. I usually prefer not to spend that much time.

I'm more fond of explaining the reason behind a shift in read. That I do frequently. If asked, I can produce it between any two readslists. I'll often do it unprompted if I feel it useful/warranted.

[Ranger]

i dont care bc if u are town here u dont even respect my arguments bc you arent even considering them or reading things I say seriously.

Perhaps the merit of the 'argument' is involved with the level of respect warranted.

[Ranger]

explaining a natural thought takes very little time.

I'll just say stop with your privilege and leave it at that. If you lack the empathy to understand how others don't process things as you do, then you're not worth debating with on this.

Page by page readslists take me ten seconds to do, I copy my last one, put it into a notepad, and manually update it as I process posts/information. I've explained the process of my readslists in relationship to my reading posts in a past game. I can do so again, don't feel like it tonight. The basics are it's internalized instinctive snap judgement calls. I look at my readslist, see if it's wrong, fiddle with it until it feels right, check posts to see if they affect position in readslists; if so, I move them in the readslist, rinse repeat.

Explaining thoughts requires manually slowing down the brain, unpacking the concept into words, tracking down the information, and writing it all out.

like what are u unable to verbalize any sort of thought, like "oh this led me to this"

Often? Yes. It's called autism, I'd have thought you wouldn't need to look that up.

Words are hard. Lists are easy. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

[Ranger]

I am contributing, this is such contrived theater between you two.

Then help me bus DKKoba.

[Ranger]

where I could be wrong is that Ranger might not be complicit in all this(ie not scum), and legit is trying to defend her point.

If ever you wonder if I'm complicit in theater, the answer is I'm not.

[Ranger]

this is a policy push for disrespecting the players and refusing to engage in a way that is better readable

I've no problem being plenty readable to players. I've also little issue in most games with focusing on fun over winning. I'm quite certain your portrayal of your push on me as policy is a favored scum tactic of yours, although I've not the time to verify tonight.

[Ranger]

not_mafia is more readable than this bc at least his actions show his intentions

So do mine.

I've provided readslists.

When engaged, I've provided the reasons for changes in them.

I've explained the basis of those reads as what they are, primarily gut.

And normally, you would be able to see this.

That you don't this game, I find suspect.

[Ranger]

holy shit can we please wagon ranger until they actually start playing

I started playing on P1.

We should consider wagoning DKKoba until they are engaging in good faith.

[Ranger]

Granted, that page is very outdated

Actually far less so than you'd think. I went through and updated it

mostly

. A computer crash caused me to lose my work on verifying the accuracy. There was a potential numbers discrepancy I was aiming to fix, and I lost my work before finishing. Still, if I didn't mess up, all pre-2022 games should be listed. Many descriptions are cringe, due to how pretentious and entitled they are. They're still largely accurate anyway.

[Ranger]

yeah something I can agree on because you dont have one to examine.

I

do

. That you can't see it here is suspect.

[Ranger]

half the reason yall reach wrong conclusions in mafia is bc you dont care about seeing how someone else is perceiving what theyre doing and why

That you've not applied this to me is a large factor in why I believe you're scum.

[Ranger]

Okay, this one can believe how you found that PT, but it just speaks to a complete lack of effort to ACTUALLY find the most recent game.

Almost like the 'effort' was made in bad faith and not genuine.

[Ranger]

ok well protip: when someone is getting obviously frustrated at how you are playing because they want to actually read your slot and are showing that, that person is probably town

True!

You don't look frustrated.

You look argumentative.

The two, while similar, aren't the same. I've seen no signs of frustration from you. I've seen consistent signs of arguing from you.

[Ranger]

how do you expect a townie who is being accused of things they know are false to react? (yes i realize this is also tied into my meta argument - but my counter is that I presented it and am using it to push you to explain things)
how do you expect a townie to react to people pushing them for unsubstantiated reasons?
how do you expect a townie to react to another player refusing to give specifics?

These differ by player being pushed, players doing the pushing, and even game. There's no universal answer.

I'll say the way you've reacted is how I'd expect scum-you to react and not town-you. This is mental memory of your meta, and I confess will require research when I'm able to. (

Soonest

would be Wednesday.)

[Ranger]

well until you can verbalize what has tangibly changed in your playstyle, i have nothing more to discuss on this topic

I'm more succinct. I use different verbiage. I quote less per post. I effort less. I've a different sense of humor. (Far more snark, usually deadpan.) I use emotes less. I internalized my readslist change process to make snap-judgements more instinctively, rather than manually. There's more changed than the same. When reading my old games, I was

shocked

at how much a literally different person I was. My mental memory stated the differences were quite small. Doing any research, I found the list of what's different much longer than what remained.

[Ranger]

well until you can verbalize what has tangibly changed in your playstyle, i have nothing more to discuss on this topic

I'm more succinct. I use different verbiage. I quote less per post. I effort less. I've a different sense of humor. (Far more snark, usually deadpan.) I use emotes less. I internalized my readslist change process to make snap-judgements more instinctively, rather than manually. There's more changed than the same. When reading my old games, I was

shocked

at how much a literally different person I was. My mental memory stated the differences were quite small. Doing any research, I found the list of what's different much longer than what remained.

Actually, I've a better answer for this.

Old-Ranger was visibly closer to the player on the right. Visibly, if you read their more recent games, they talk very similarly to old-Ranger. (Which makes sense. They did steal their current style

from

old-Ranger.)

New-Ranger is on the left.

[Ranger]

from what i read from your old games i kinda thought you would be better than being a level 1 tunneler if youre town here tho tbh

My reads are fluid, and change by the circumstances.

By respecting your scumgame and believing your current push is reminiscent of it, you remain a scumread off the evolving circumstances. There's

evidence

you'd be town by now. It was absent previously and has since been generated. There's also evidence you're scum, absent previously and now generated.

I'm sure you'll ask me to explain. This I might do. Not tonight. No promises, yet I can outline the town vs. scum in more recent posts on Wednesday if rl circumstances don't change.

[Ranger]

whatever I decided that u are probably town I just wanted u to give me something I can actually argue against

I believe this mindset does betray a scum alignment.

I'll recognize it's not exclusively a scum mindset; town can think this way.

I believe your search for something to argue against is specifically your scumgame, as searching for something to argue against isn't solving the game; searching for something to argue against is a tool to look better.

[Ranger]

no one gives a fucking shit about seeing things from my pov and then when I flip town it's like "oh no how did we Misread koba"

I'll own up to mistakes I make and take full accountability for being wrong if you are town.

I don't think you are.

[Ranger]

does this LOOK like a gamestate where I have 4 buddies to help me??

No. Alas, this isn't the clearing argument you think, given the game's been open for less than 48 hours and the predominant forces in the game have been precisely {DKKoba, Ranger}.

Your scumbuddies wouldn't be able to assist you. They wouldn't know how. You're too active for anyone to keep up with rn.

I'll say it doesn't condemn you, either. Your activity being too high for anyone to keep up with is a fact. I believe that fact doesn't indicate alignment either way.

[Ranger]

yeah something I can agree on because you dont have one to examine.

I

do

. That you can't see it here is suspect.

Name something I have done that isn't suspect

A lot of your more recent posting, actually. There's still content within I feel betrays a scum alignment. However, whereas previously I wasn't seeing any town, now I see a fair amount.

Respectfully, I'm too exhausted to point it out tonight. Soonest I could is Wednesday.

At this stage, if I say I believe a specific thing from you is suspect, then I think that thing is suspect. If I

don't

point something out, at this stage, I

don't

think it's suspect. I may be replying to a great deal; I'm aiming suspicion at only some of it because your more recent posting I can see as town.

[Ranger]

Always the fucking same boring ass circular arguments that can't be overcome because the person with the read refuses to listen and is so far up their tunnel they forgot that it's ok to admit they're wrong

I do admit when I'm wrong. My reads are always fluid. They change on whims. I won't force a player to be more scum than they are.

I recognize you've town indicators.

I believe these town indicators aren't outside your scum range, and I believe you've stronger scum indicators demonstrating the town indicators not outside your scum range are you producing town indicators as scum. This belief, I've already specified may be wrong, as it requires validating by doing some research on your meta and verifying my mental memory of events. I've not the time to tonight, nor tomorrow. Thus...Wednesday, with luck.

[Ranger]

The post you replied to is a sign, maybe you're just not reading bud

I read the post in question. It was literally making an argument. If you want to claim "I was being frustrated, not making an argument" for a post I see an argument within...then I'm going to be skeptical.


There's no sign of frustration within. My ability to read tone is certainly far from perfect. I read none present in 536.

[Ranger]

Should I scumread you for assuming my meta without reading it?

I've read your meta before. There's a difference between reading the meta and remembering it. I've a mental memory of what I read. My memory, flawed as it is, should be refreshed.

You're free to scumread me for whatever you please. I'll tell you it'd certainly be

wrong

, yet it's your right. I work off memory a lot. I recognize this flaw, yet still make use of imperfect memories to save time. My memory is a shortcut I use to verify or disprove when I've the time to research.

[Ranger]

i think u are actually way better than this as town seeing your townplay and seeing u get into a tunnel like this is uncharacteristic of you

That's the thing.

I'm not tunneling.

You're portraying my read on you as a tunnel.

I've been fairly consistent in stating my reads are fluid and change. I formed an initial weak scumread on you. It was never strong, mostly gut. This read has evolved off the content following. Despite the presence of townier content in the newer posts, the read remains, because of a belief you've demonstrated a lack of sincerity in your 'scumhunting' efforts.

There's certainly doubts to my read! I might express them when not thoroughly exhausted. (I should've been asleep two hours ago.) There's nothing uncharacteristic of me

having

a scumread. If you are pushing the narrative this scumread is some hardcore deathtunnel, that's exactly that; a narrative. It doesn't reflect reality.

Right or wrong, I have a scumread on you. I've good reasons for it. These reasons aren't absolute. They still exist, and are for now, my best lead. I fully admit I could be wrong. I've made many D1 pushes which I thought were for good reasons and learned I was mistaken. Given the balance of evidence I have, you're still my top lead for scum.

i do not believe you found players like Meuh to have a "vibe' that good off those 4 posts.

Given the content of those posts, I did. Meuh had a lighthearted jokey vibe which is disproportionately likely to be +town.

I do drop players in my reads when I don't see posts from them. Or sometimes, the inverse. When I see those players posting again, I resume adjusting their position. I did say so previously, when I specified "recency bias".

ofc doubling down on not explaining and just copping out with "its just how i play" doesnt help.

This is a disingenuous portrayal of my responses. I never doubled down on refusing to explain with "it's just how I play".

[Ranger]

as an autistic person, the autism excuse is weak and boring

I don't recall using autism as an excuse.
I do recall snark about it specifically because of knowing you're autistic and

should

recognize the variance.

Naturally, I

am

capable of citing posts to make points very easily. I've never said I can't. Quite the opposite. I've acknowledged I

can

.

What I

have

specified, is I'm not capable of citing posts

right now

. Autism doesn't make for a consistent response which will always be exactly the same. Capabilities

vary

on different days. And

today

, I'm incapable of it. I've the full capability for it on a

different

day.

[Ranger]

is what i am assuming ranger has at best, and if so they should actually say that.

The Team Mafia game is the first to come to mind, yes.

I'll research on my own when I've the ability to.

[Ranger]

i just want someone to have a nuanced and deep conversation about mafia with rather than this stupid debunking cycle that i get into every other towngame because i have to teach people how to not assume things and if they *do* assume to LISTEN to the clarification.

I'm rather certain I'm not the player clinging to assumptions in this debate.


I'll recognize 582 as making me reconsider my scumread, among others. I'll process it as I can.

[Ranger]

did u know.. um.. that.... peoples scumgames.. um... tend to mimic their umm,.,............ towngames sometimes.. super CRAZY i know.

Sure. Success isn't guaranteed though, particularly given different inherent motives and knowledge bases. Scum have a motive different from town and between motive and knowledge, their approach differs. I believe town motivators can be present in town by scum not being able to portray them. I believe town motivators can be present in scum by scum being able to portray them. I believe scum indicators can be present in town because of town imperfections combined with scum imitation. I believe scum indicators can be present in scum because of scum revealing their alignment.

I previously believed your demonstrated town indicators were scum mimicking your towngame. I previously believed your demonstrated scum indicators weren't town imperfections and were a betrayal of your alignment.

I'm less certain now.

idk how u cant see that im actually trying to pull answers out of you!

I'll say I see this in 583, and some of your more recent posting. As I said, not tunneled. I'll say I certainly didn't see them for most of this back-and-forth. If I looked back, your very first engagement was likely also pulling answers out. A great deal of the early-middle section, I saw only accusation. I'll say I believe there's no accusation in this post, at the very least, which combined with prior doubts, warrants consideration.

For you to be scum would require you to have adapted your strategy on the fly and completely changed tactics towards this. Not impossible...yet not likely. Given the unlikelihood of scum fluidly shifting as you have in this way, I've talked my way into a townread. I've doubts, yet I don't feel content wagoning you.

VOTE: xyzzy
Would also vote ofhrz.

[Ranger]

in fact after like page 5 theyve stayed pretty much the same!

Despite my belief you're not accusing me, I'll state this is false though. I've not posted a readslist since the beginning of the back-and-forth to demonstrate the change. My reads did shift considerably. The very top and very bottom remained identical. Every middle position changed.

[Ranger]

i am literally sacrificing sleep to prove u wrong.

You're not alone in losing sleep.

Fortunately, it did bear fruit regardless of your alignment as I lean town by some unknown amount rn. I'll have a visualization of how much when I do my last readslist of the night.

[Ranger]

{SirCakez, PookyTheMagicalBear, Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{Meuh}
{The Buldge}
{DKKoba}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{Alisae}
{Dannflor}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{BlueSnakelet}
{iamveryhappy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}

Imperfect readslist, too tired to ruminate further. The answer to how town I think Koba is: apparently, quite a lot. Not strongly (that's Meuh and above), not weakly (that's Alisae and below), still a lot.

Readlist definitely has some stale tiers to fix Wednesday.

[Ranger]

Ranger, do you have any words to put to your read on me

Sure. I've paranoia about some of your posts being potentially scum (I can't cite today, can tomorrow), yet your posts still look town and I think it's more likely you're attempting to further the town wincon. It's not strongly enough to warrant locking you as town; it's enough where I do think you are.

[Ranger]

{Meuh}
{SirCakez, PookyTheMagicalBear, Doctor Drew}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{DKKoba}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{Dannflor}
{Alisae}
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{BlueSnakelet}
{iamveryhappy}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}

P25. Still have stale reads; this is mostly recency bias.

[Ranger]

We've read Mush's post.
We can’t properly respond.
We’ll say this for now:
I actually came out from Mush's catchup with a stronger townread on Koba. The inconsistencies you pointed out are more in line with a typical town mindset.

However, at first available point, We’ll try to review the events, and consider the chances of "DKKoba found their element as scum". Right]i]now[/i], I don’t buy it.

I'd still vote Koba, despite my townread, because I believe their flip holds great value. I'd expect a town flip though, so my

preference

is one of {xyzzy, ofhrz}, who you agree are 'also' scum/scum regardless.

If you want more insight into our head, quick rundown. Most of our posts are written primarily by Miranda. Some, by Hera. We’ve an unnamed motherly facet involved as well, and Talia our flirting facet is trying to return too.

Aside from Talia and maybe the motherly one, none of us played in 2016.

[Ranger]

Spoiler: system stuff

If you want more insight into our head, quick rundown. Most of our posts are written primarily by Miranda. Some, by Hera. We’ve an unnamed motherly facet involved as well, and Talia our flirting facet is trying to return too.

Aside from Talia and maybe the motherly one, none of us played in 2016.

Back when we started playing, we didn’t know we’re plural.

When we did, we erroneously thought we had only two facets, one of them Ranger.

Mid-2022, we realized there’s hundreds of us, and we didn’t form just then. Most of us had been there the whole time.

So, we didn’t know each other by name in 2016.

We can read older posts and identify sentence by sentence the voice which wrote it. This is how we can often tell a facet isn’t brand new, and is instead simply recently recognized individually.

So, it’s hard to piece together who, exactly, made up the 2016 Ranger.

Near as we can tell

, the main Fronter on 2016 Ranger was Barbie. (We've known of her for a long time and named her 15 minutes ago. She’s our casual chatting yet also rambley facet.)

Barbie is, and always has been, a major facet, nearly always among our fronters, and is fairly omnipresent. She’s a migrant. While most facets are somewhat compartmentalized, Barbie largely isn’t.

There’s at least some chance she could be the original host, or be close to. She’s among the oldest and most prominent of our facets, and might age identically to our body.

As far as we know, back in 2016, Barbie wasn’t playing mafia outside of on Ranger. Yet part of the reason we retired is because she gradually

migrated

. She wasn’t around in our games, and was intruding in other games.

When we stopped playing on Ranger, she didn’t. She kept playing, to the point where we no longer associate her with Ranger. She might have built the foundation of our 2016 playstyle, yet we now associate her with someone else.

Because we currently see her as more associated with another, when we returned to playing, we didn’t invite her to play with us. In fact, we asked her to stay out. So, the main fronter for 2016 isn’t playing with us these days.

Back then, other fronters included Hermione, at least one currently unnamed jokester facet (probably two), at least one currently unnamed motherly facet, and Talia, our flirtatious facet.

When we resumed playing with me, Miranda, as the main player, we knew the Ranger of old wasn’t entirely present, and it’d take time for us to slowly ease in to our place. We’re still working on it.

We’ll probably never get there fully. Barbie was our 2016 main fronter, I’m our current main fronter. We’re still rebuilding though, and I believe

eventually

, We’ll get as close as possible with a different main fronter.

We might have more to say, yet for now, I can’t think of more.

I hope this helps explain why 2016 Ranger was quite literally someone else though.

[Ranger]

VOTE: ofhrz
While We’re here.

[Ranger]

I actually am buying into Pooky-scum rn (caught a potential scumtell), yet not strongly enough to prefer him over ofrhz/xyzzy.

[Ranger]

Apologies. I'm unable to give anything this game today.

[Ranger]

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh}
{SirCakez}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{DKKoba}
{BlueSnakelet}
{Doctor Drew}
{Alisae}
{Dannflor}
{iamveryhappy}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}

Fresher reads as of P26, but obviously have 30 pages to read.

[Ranger]

I do not *get* the overwhelming xyzzy scum reads

Their posts don't just vibe as not-town, their posts actively vibe as scum, particularly their stances and takes. I don't buy the idea of them being lazy-town. Laziness is a given; their posting gives off lazy-scum vibes.

[Ranger]

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh}
{SirCakez}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{DKKoba}
{BlueSnakelet}
{Doctor Drew}
{Alisae}
{Dannflor}
{iamveryhappy}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{ofrhz}
{xyzzy}

P32.

[Ranger]

oh thank god the cavalry is here

Yeah, rough couple of days. I'm here to kill xyzzy or ofrhz though.

[Ranger]

ofrhz (7): The Bulge, Dannflor, MUSHSHAGANA, Skygazer, HighPrincessErinys, Ranger, BlueSnakelet
Snek voting the biggest wagon kekw

I'm willing to wager everyone on that wagon is town, possible exception of Dannflor.

If 6-7 town players are on the wagon and 0-1 scum are, what do you suppose that implies?

[Ranger]

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh}
{SirCakez}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{DKKoba}
{BlueSnakelet}
{Doctor Drew}
{iamveryhappy}
{Alisae}
{Dannflor}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{ofrhz}
{xyzzy}

P34.

I really like my townreads for town. (Where they start exactly varies. Drew, Snakelet, Koba, Bulge, all could be starting points.)

The scum list is less definitive. Anyone Alisae below I'd vote. (Koba is the one player above I'd vote; as previously stated, I think they're town, yet understand the value of their flip.)

[Ranger]

I simply do not believe Blue’s read on ofrhz
My scum read on ofrhz is cooling off as well

I do believe the scumread on ofrhz.

I also see no reason to cool off on scumreading ofrhz. ofhrz's play has looked disproportionately +scum. There's town elements, yet overall I don't see a town player making genuine thoughts/conclusions; I see a scum player putting in the minimum amount of effort required. The wagon on ofhrz was likely pure. It should be revived.

[Ranger]

you have like no endurance as scum

What do you suppose it means that DKKoba has shown endurance this game?

[Ranger]

RCE did not similarly shift because I get the impression that RCE isn't engaged with the game and has no intention of figuring it out right now.

I disagree with this take. That RCEnigma isn't engaged with the game's clear enough. I would lump him in with xyzzy for still being readable off what he

has

produced, and it being +scum. I don't think he's making genuine pushes.

[Ranger]

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh}
{SirCakez}
{DKKoba}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{BlueSnakelet}
{Doctor Drew}
{iamveryhappy}
{Dannflor}
{Alisae}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{ofrhz}
{xyzzy}

P36.

[Ranger]

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh, SirCakez, DKKoba}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{BlueSnakelet}
{Doctor Drew}
{iamveryhappy}
{Dannflor}
{Alisae}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{ofrhz}
{xyzzy}

P37.

[Ranger]

I feel like there are definitely some wolves operating in broad daylight this game (if that makes sense lol) and being manipulative and I'm not sure who looks trustworthy yet.

I'm very high in confidence it's none of my top townreads. The first it

could

be is BlueSnakelet, and even there I'd doubt.

If there's wolves operating in broad daylight manipulating events, the best candidates: {Dannflor, Alisae, PookyTheMagicalBear}. It's not guaranteed those three contain scum. Still, I currently believe the group isn't all town. None of them are D1 yeets, and the best way to expose them as scum would be nabbing their scumbuddies

not

bothering to try.

Not every slot giving zero effort will be town.

Though

every

zero-effort slot won't be scum, I'd water the zero-effort slots contain more scum than town.

[Ranger]

Not every slot giving zero effort will be town.

Though

every

zero-effort slot won't be scum, I'd water the zero-effort slots contain more scum than town.

Remember, the game mechanics punish lazy-town and reward lazy-scum. Lazy-scum get to coast by. They need not do anything, if the town is unwilling to threaten their lives. Lazy-town get punished. They either get executed by schadd, or lead to a different townie getting executed by schadd off their inactivity and refusal to step up.

Scum have far more motivation to be lazy than town, because laziness this game is disproportionately +scum.

[Ranger]

Not every slot giving zero effort will be town.

Though

every

zero-effort slot won't be scum, I'd water the zero-effort slots contain more scum than town.

Remember, the game mechanics punish lazy-town and reward lazy-scum. Lazy-scum get to coast by. They need not do anything, if the town is unwilling to threaten their lives. Lazy-town get punished. They either get executed by schadd, or lead to a different townie getting executed by schadd off their inactivity and refusal to step up.

Scum have far more motivation to be lazy than town, because laziness this game is disproportionately +scum.

If you wonder which slots I'd call lazy:
{Doctor Drew(maybe), iamveryhappy, sheepsaysmeep, Morning Tweet, RCEnigma, ofhrz, xyzzy}.

Does anyone believe that group's entirely town?

I'd wager it's not even

mostly

town.

I don't think all scum are within. I'd say ~3-4 likely.

[Ranger]

Like Pooky said earlier - deliver dead scum for a townread

Can't deliver dead scum if scum refuses to vote them.

[Ranger]

Like Pooky said earlier - deliver dead scum for a townread

Can't deliver dead scum if scum refuses to vote them.

*if town refuses to vote them, though scum refusing does make it much harder.

[Ranger]

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh, SirCakez, DKKoba}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{BlueSnakelet}
{Doctor Drew}
{iamveryhappy}
{Dannflor}
{Alisae}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{ofrhz}
{xyzzy}

I caught a Pooky-specific scumtell on P39.

[Ranger]

also you can see he is actually poking around other slots and all that there to get to that conclusion, he just decided i was scum here and just kept calling me scum. he is capable of showing reasoning for reads

Isn't this the issue you had with Ranger? Which now somehow you two townread each other????

ranger's play and pooky's play is like miles apart so kinda obvious how i townread ranger and not pooky

Yet you use the same vernacular in your defense.

Gotcha.

I think this is a town-Drew.

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh, SirCakez, DKKoba}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{BlueSnakelet, Doctor Drew}
{iamveryhappy}
{Dannflor}
{Alisae}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{ofrhz}
{xyzzy}

Everyone from the BlueSnakelet tier above, I'm quite sure is town. Let's purge those below.

[Ranger]

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh, SirCakez, DKKoba}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{BlueSnakelet, Doctor Drew}
{iamveryhappy}
{Dannflor}
{Alisae}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{ofrhz}
{xyzzy}

Everyone from the BlueSnakelet tier above, I'm quite sure is town. Let's purge those below.

This game is nightless.

MUSHAGANA:

HighPrincessErinys:

Meuh:

SirCakez:

DKKoba:

Skygazer:

BlueSnakelet:

Doctor Drew:

With us all voting together, we have enough votes to purge everyone not-us. If we do this rapidfire one after another, then we instantly eliminate most or all of the scum. We have the numbers where even if the list contains 4 scum, we don't lose. Unless you think all five scum are in my list here, we don't lose by purging those outside.

Let's get some speedwagons going.

It literally doesn't matter who we wagon, as long as it's not someone in this list.

[Ranger]

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh, SirCakez, DKKoba}
{Skygazer}
{The Buldge}
{BlueSnakelet, Doctor Drew}
{iamveryhappy}
{Dannflor}
{Alisae}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{PookyTheMagicalBear}
{ofrhz}
{xyzzy}

Everyone from the BlueSnakelet tier above, I'm quite sure is town. Let's purge those below.

This game is nightless.

MUSHAGANA:

HighPrincessErinys:

Meuh:

SirCakez:

DKKoba:

Skygazer:

BlueSnakelet:

Doctor Drew:

With us all voting together, we have enough votes to purge everyone not-us. If we do this rapidfire one after another, then we instantly eliminate most or all of the scum. We have the numbers where even if the list contains 4 scum, we don't lose. Unless you think all five scum are in my list here, we don't lose by purging those outside.

Let's get some speedwagons going.

It literally doesn't matter who we wagon, as long as it's not someone in this list.

Let's punish lazy town and do the mod's work for him: purge everyone who isn't pulling their weight. Purge everyone not making effort. Do it, and do it now. Remove any lazy scum, and then remove the likely scum partners of those lazy scum.

[Ranger]

like this is nightless its not like the baddies can do shit to us

Pooky if you're town, you should be down for a purge.

You yourself laid out the benefits of the strategy, so reaching out to you. It doesn't matter if you think we're voting out town, as long as the purge keeps going one after another and hits enough scum. It only takes 2-3 scum eliminations from mass-purge to essentially auto-win the game for town, here. Let's start it with the players who schadd

didn't

kill.

[Ranger]

Willing to bet good money on atleast 2 scum in ofrhz/Pooky/Alisae/Drew

I believe Alisae's correct in stating Doctor Drew's never scum.

The rest can be purged, and should be.

I'm not picky on who we start with; I'd suggest ofhrz, the player

not

purged by schadd.

[Ranger]

vote count 1.7 !

BlueSnakelet (5):

Alisae, Dannflor, The Bulge, SirCakez, ofrhz

ofrhz (4):

MUSHSHAGANA, Skygazer, Ranger, BlueSnakelet

DkKoba (3):

Doctor Drew, Meuh, xyzzy

Ranger (2):

Morning Tweet, RCEnigma

PookyTheMagicalBear (1):

HighPrincessErinys

SirCakez (1):

iamveryhappy

HighPrincessErinys (1):

PookyTheMagicalBear

Alisae (1):

DkKoba

The Bulge has been detonated. he was a

vanilla hostage

.

Bulge had zero votes and no active town players advocating for him being scum. Literally nobody had the read schadd did.

We cannot trust schadd to kill scummy town.

If we can't trust schadd to kill the likes of ofrhz, we must do it ourselves.

Pure the scummiest slots on our own, because schadd killed one of the towniest slots.

[Ranger]

-1 snek voter btw

Bulge voted snek -> voting snek made him scummy -> the vote was bad -> snek is townie

This is an excellent observation.

And it begs the question. If BlueSnek is town, then what about the others on the wagon?

If the act of voting BlueSnakelet is scummy, then what made schadd kill The Bulge specifically on the wagon?

BlueSnakelet (5):

Alisae, Dannflor, The Bulge, SirCakez, ofrhz

ofrhz (4):

MUSHSHAGANA, Skygazer, Ranger, BlueSnakelet

Why not kill ofhrz, who

also

voted BlueSnakelet?

If voting BlueSnakelet was scummy because BlueSnakelet is town, then why was The Bulge with zero votes the slot killed, versus ofhrz?

[Ranger]

For the record, my preferred purge order:
ofhrz->xyzzy->RCEnigma->sheepsaysmeep->situational from there. Morning Tweet, Pooky, maybe Alisae if we're feeling spicy.

It starts with ofhrz first though. Let's make the purge happen. Blood for the blood god.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Alisae
Begin the purge!

[Ranger]

(I've posts to respond to, but busy rn)

[Ranger]

STICK TO THE PURGE
VOTE: ofrhz

The first member of the purge flipping town doesn't mean all within the purge will. We knew there would be town within. If you think the idea had merit, stay to the course.

[Ranger]

it would be stupid to just keep eliminating the same list of people after the supposed leader of that scum pile just flipped town

Alisae wasn't a supposed leader of the scum pile.

Alisae was a compromise.

The purge has a focus on the slots coasting by and doing nothing. It's a bit subjective what qualifies. Mine continues to be ofhrz->xyzzy->RCEnigma->sheepsaysmeep. It eliminates slots doing nothing and eliminates slots outside the towncore.

[Ranger]

ya i think scum are kinda piling onto ranger's idea for a quik elim lol

Name names.

Alisae (10):

DkKoba, Meuh, HighPrincessErinys, BlueSnakelet, iamveryhappy, Dannflor, Skygazer, Save The Dragons, SirCakez, Ranger

If you want to sheep Alisae, you should sheep eir townread on the Save The Dragons slot. e made a compelling case for why Doctor Drew was town, and I believe Doctor Drew was in his town meta. Save The Dragons continues to be town.

SirCakez is also town.

You're quoting Skygazer, who you believe isn't involved.

You are town.

Who's the scum?

I'll fight hard against Meuh and HighPrincessErinys being listed as scum.

I maintain there's compelling reasons for BlueSnakelet being scum.

Who's the scum piling onto the idea of a quick elim?

The possibilities are quite few.
{iamveryhappy, Dannflor} is genuinely the only players within who could be.

Hardly a scum-sheeping-Ranger composition.

It's definitely possible scum were

among

the voters. They sure weren't the

backing

of the idea.

The resistance to the purge yesterday more likely is where most scum were.

[Ranger]

why is bluensek outside of this

Because BlueSneklet is semi-cleared for TheBulge being the target of schadd's execution, as well as simply: I don't buy the scum case against them. I see BlueSnakelet's content as town, I don't buy the scumcase, and there's reason for clearing the slot.

[Ranger]

and rce isnt doing nothing lol

Check again. He's literally done nothing and

confessed as much

.

RCE did not similarly shift because I get the impression that RCE isn't engaged with the game and has no intention of figuring it out right now.

I disagree with this take. That RCEnigma isn't engaged with the game's clear enough. I would lump him in with xyzzy for still being readable off what he

has

produced, and it being +scum. I don't think he's making genuine pushes.

This is correct.

RCEnigma is a player capable of matching your posting, Koba. He can produce hundreds of posts.

He has

seventeen

.

And most are lazy, zero-level takes with no deeper thought present.

[Ranger]

why orf first and not a slot like MT

Well, Morning Tweet's being replaced I believe. I'd happily wagon the slot if there were support as MT makes the list of purge slots.

[Ranger]

1426, 1428, 1430, 1431, and 1433 remain true.

{MUSHSHAGANA, HighPrincessErinys, Meuh, SirCakez, DKKoba, Skygazer, BlueSnakelet, Doctor Drew/Save The Dragons} is my town core.

Everyone outside, I'm willing to purge.

As was specified, just most in the list as town is enough.

If 6-8/8 of my towncore are town, then purging everyone outside

still nets scum

, a minimum of three and potentially more.

The idea doesn't work if it's not committed to. It causes more harm than good if started then stopped. If you wanted to jump ship and abandon course after the first townflip, then why take part in the first place? The purge was never going to hit exclusively scum.

[Ranger]

i went to refresh myself on RCE and his posts are super insightful into how he is thinking about the gamestate and its such a misrepresentation to say he is doing nothing wow.

I've been watching all seventeen of RCEnigma's posts and am familiar with what he's capable of doing.

His takes this game are lazy and demonstrate zero depth of thought. He literally opened with "ranger is efforting, that means ranger scum", and then never followed through on this thought, despite it being discussed as something I do every game.

[Ranger]

vote count 2.1 !

bloc a

ofrhz (3):

iamveryhappy, HighPrincessErinys, BlueSnakelet

(this rounds up to 5)

BlueSnakelet (1):

DkKoba

Morning Tweet (1):

Meuh

bloc b

BlueSnakelet (2):

SirCakez, Save The Dragons

ofrhz (2):

Ranger, Skygazer

not voting (1):

Dannflor

We're one vote away in bloc b from killing ofhrz, let's do this.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Morning Tweet

Keep the purge going. It may have detoured with an elimination I didn't approve of on scum; this is no reason to not approve of more names purged.

[Ranger]

This one is hesitant to immediately go after Ranger after we take out MT but we'll see. It's pretty sure that xyzzy/sheepsaysmeep/RCE will yield another 1, maybe even 2 scum though.

Guess who my favored 3 eliminations are?

Try eliminating xyzzy/sheepsaysmeep/RCEnigma and see what they flip,

then

come back to whether you think I'm suspect for pushing their eliminations.

[Ranger]

3 red slots left, the group says xyzzy is one for sure. RCE, Ranger, Meuh, Sheep are candidates for the other.

Try checking how many of those I’m willing to eliminate.

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep

Would also vote RCEnigma or xyzzy, willing to continue the purge regardless on all three.

[Ranger]

My preference; xyzzy->RCEnigma->sheepsaysmeep; voting sheep because I honestly don’t care what the order is as long as all are purged pronto.

[Ranger]

I don’t trust schadd. He killed one of the towniest slots in the game, for...voting...scum???

Think about that. Bulge wasn’t remotely scum by play, nor was the BlueSnakelet vote bad as it was voting scum.

Do you

really

want to trust schadd's judgment on who's scummy, when there’s only a

chance

to hit scum?

What happens if he thinks a town player like me or MUSH is scummier than scum?

I much prefer we solve by play, rather than rely on a dice roll we've already got evidence is rigged.

[Ranger]

It's not because scum WILL die, or even that scum dying would matter. It's that it sheds light on WHY the prior dingers hit the people they did. Would schadd_ have preferred to hit much uglier scum slots, or are all the scum efforting, meaning limming in the lowposter pool is a bad idea? That unlocks the earlier dinger kills as something we can parse through meaningfully, instead of asking empty questions about. It helps us sort.

Forgive my lack of confidence behind the "let's wait for a kill, and glean some magical info from it" approach.

Historically, games usually don’t go well for people relying on it.

Just know when schadd kills a town slot we

weren't

going to eliminate; perhaps acknowledge the flaws in your plan I pointed out before hindsight.

schadd is not reliable. He is killing slots I'd never kill. When he inevitably does so

again

, and it isn’t on scum. Well, you get what you ask for.

[Ranger]

Skygazer is deadweight town but they're FUN deadweight town so

hopefully

Tommy just murders a mafia instead.

I've spotted a key flaws in your plan.

Bulge was fun. He literally earned a townread from me off an entertaining post he made. His humor was

why

I townread him.

Entertainment won’t stop schadd from shooting town. The Bulge would still be alive if it did.

[Ranger]

Fuck I kinda want to vote xyzzy too this is brutal

I'll happily help bus xyzzy.

[Ranger]

If schadd_ still goes after low-posting town, it tells us that we have deepwolves.

Does it now.

I have a different perspective.

[Ranger]

there's no town-sided reason to worry about town leaders getting taken out by homeruns with so many low-posters AND scum as viable targets.

Is there?

You apparently need a lesson on absolutes and assumptions.

You say there’s no town reason to worry.

I am town and I am telling you this will not pan out in favor of the town because you are working from flawed assumptions. Which is reason to 'worry'.

The Bulge was a top townread of mine. schadd killed him.
Pooky might have been being replaced, yet was a top poster while playing.
iamveryhappy was a thread consensus nulltown, and schadd killed him. Nobody wanted him dead or had him remotely near the top of the poe.

All three kills were largely outside the discussed town poe. All three kills were players nobody wanted dead remotely soon. All three were on slots under zero pressure and were middle of the road at worst.

Forgive me for not thinking schadd is magically going to change patterns and shoot a consensus scumread.

There’s more consensus scumreads than scum slots. When given the opportunity, schadd has shot none of them.

It’s not fearmongering to pay attention towards the data available and note an expectation of a kill diverging from past kills is unrealistic. schadd will likely continue killing by the same existing metric he has.

If there’s scum in the middle of the road posters,

they

have reason to fear. Yet if the middle of the road posters are all town, schadd is going to kill whichever among them he fancies.

[Ranger]

Which is?

schadd hasn't killed a single consensus scumread. There’s more consensus scumreads than there are scum, so schadd easily could've blasted a town in the consensus. He hasn't.

You are assuming the introduction of scum to the kill pool will change the metric by which schadd selects his kills.

I am assuming he will stick to his established pattern, which

isn’t

shooting the consensus scumreads we want him to.

[Ranger]

I mean we also could plow this wagon through sheep, xxyzz, and Ranger and be done with the game

Try sheepsaysmeep, xyzzy, RCEnigma, ofrhz, and then see how close we are to being done with the game.

[Ranger]

I'm not talking about necessarily waiting until the next homer, no matter when that is, either. I'm not -- well, okay, I /wasn't/ -- deadset on even waiting through the next game, but Ranger's panic makes me want to really make that happen.

I've also an interest in seeing the next homerun, for a different reason.

To demonstrate I

wasn't

"panicking" and your insistence on schadd magically changing target types when there's a clear pattern on who he seems to scumread pointing

away

from the areas we'd want him to shoot, was ignorance.

If the likes of Skygazer die leaving all of {xyzzy, sheepsaysmeep, RCEnigma, ofrhz} alive when scum can be targeted, will you admit I was right?

[Ranger]

Yeah this one isn't like, too super sure about Ranger still even if this opposition to the homerun plan seems really weird to it.

One point to consider; I am town.

If scum were truly worried, they'd be supporting my plan to get them out of the pool by pushing eliminations through. They have a town player to take the fall for helping them advance a proscum agenda.

Since those efforts haven't materialized, either they're okay with the plan or they don't like who would be pushed through to elimination(sheepsaysmeep).

The scum think "wait for a homerun" is their best available option by play right now. If they didn't, then there would be greater efforts for an alternative.

[Ranger]

honestly i do not understand why anyone would go into this game assuming that they can suss out what schadd, who has perfect knowledge of the setup and all alignments, would interpret as scummy.

We've got three data points which give a reasonably good picture of where schadd has been focusing. That gives a fairly good idea of who he'll shoot next. Spoiler alert: nobody we want shot. The inclusion of scum in the pool of players to shoot is bait. It's something which could theoretically hit scum, yet won't.

trying to play around the assumption that tommy will do his beautiful work and then we'll

definitely

lose a slot that was already in contention.

By "already in contention", you mean 'within the poe'? Because that's my issue with the plan of "wait and see"; they are doing precisely this. They're assuming we'll

definitely

lose a slot in contention(the poe), which is the exact opposite of what's

actually

likely to happen.

Source; I actually paid attention to the pattern behind the kills and more importantly what the kills

weren't

.

[Ranger]

I'll state it simply.

What would schadd not killing any of {xyzzy, sheepsaysmeep, RCEnigma, ofrhz}

actually

tell you?

If your answer is any form of "there’s deepscum in the game", then you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the central game mechanic.

If your answer gives any alignment to those four, then you are mistaken.

schadd killing outside the poe tells us one thing and one thing only; schadd's reads are radically different than our own, and he can/will execute players we never would have.

That’s it. There’s nothing further to glean from it. You can draw conclusions all you like. The truth remains the above.

If the idea a town player can disagree with your, visibly flawed, plan, is a foreign concept to you: perhaps reconsider your biases. If you assign "panic" to strong disagreement over the mechanics discussed, then you have closed your mind off.

I’ve laid out my arguments fairly extensively.

My arguments are simply: schadd will kill whoever he views as scummiest and his views

do not match ours

, so waiting will result in someone (likely town) dead we wouldn’t want dead.

I have the backing for this off his actual past kills.

Whatever route leads to dead scum, I’ll be happy to take. If I am wrong, I’ll own up. If your flawed logic off incorrect premises still lands a scum elimination, I certainly won’t complain about how it was the right read for completely wrong reasons.

Still, I maintain this plan is disproportionately +scum, as schadd has demonstrated who he prefers killing, and is likely to shoot outside the names we'd prefer and hit town.

I maintain this gives no indication of who is scum, and reveals only one fact; another data point for what schadd sees as scummy.

Since you are determined to delay a likely scum elimination on sheepsaysmeep, we’ll be rolling the dice on who is right, with it shown in time.

I like my odds, personally.

[Ranger]

This one still thinks waiting for the next two games to see what happens is MUCH preferable to blindly trusting you on "Guys I've cracked the schadd code there is no way this works in our favor".

Your hypocrisy is showing considering the plan is essentially "Guys I've cracked the schadd code there's no way this won't work in our favor", and my stance is simply a vehement disagreement of that idea.

[Ranger]

counterpoint: maybe the people who died died because the scum are obvscum

Counter-counterpoint; there's more slots obvscum than there are scum. At least one town player is someone we consider obvscum. For every number of deepscum you think, you're automatically adding a town to the pool of obvscum.

If there's three scum in {xyzzy, sheepsaysmeep, RCEnigma, ofrhz}, then one is town, yet none have died.
If there's one deepscum, there's therefore a maximum of two scum in {xyzzy, sheepsaysmeep, RCEnigma, ofrhz}, and therefore two are town and neither have died despite being obvscum.
If there's two players not-obvscum, then by necessity, the pool of obvscum must contain only one, which means

three

of the 'obvscum' haven't been killed.

You're all being very naive if you think the introduction of scum means schadd's going to kill any differently than he has previously.

[Ranger]

Ranger being the only one acting this upset about the possibility of a dinger on the one day schadd_ said scum can die makes me deeply suspicious of her.

Think about what you're saying for a minute.

If you still don't get it, perhaps refer to...genuinely any past game you've played, ever.

Wonder how well your mindset worked out towards catching scum in those games.

Perhaps your experience differs from mine in the area, so I'll say a spoiler alert from mine history:

It usually doesn't.

[Ranger]

This one is not budging either way.

I'm aware.

You live with the consequences of your choices. You've made yours. I've made mine. Which gives more regrets, well, time will sadly tell.

I still like my odds.

[Ranger]

ive noticed that I failed to do things. this thread is very grueling to read

I'd say you're doing fine, given the color of your role pm.

[Ranger]

what’s been grueling about it?

The alignment of sheepsaysmeep's role.

[Ranger]

but also.. fmpov i was the only one majorly pushing xyzzy

Your point of view is biased.

I've been pushing all of {xyzzy, ofrhz, RCEnigma} all game, and recently added sheepsaysmeep in as well.

I've pushed whichever I thought had most traction in thread; you're correct xyzzy had the least of them.

Same applies to MUSH stating that of my ofrhz interaction.

I've certainly pushed scum in the wrong order and wrong time. I had Morning Tweet as scum, yet had her behind xyzzy and ofhrz (my preferred eliminations at the time). I had xyzzy as scum, yet did push ofrhz instead.

If you want to accuse me for not pushing scum at the right time when I was

still pushing scum

, just

different

scum, think that through a bit.

My purge list remains ofrhz, RCEnigma, and sheepsaysmeep.

I recognize I was wrong about schadd not killing scum, and will own up to the consequences. Including eating a yeet. Do me a favor and pure those you want to purge anyway, who I happen to be in favor of purging, then return to me.

[Ranger]

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh, SirCakez, DKKoba}
{Save The Dragons}
{Skygazer}
{Dannflor}
{RCEnigma}
{ofrhz}
{sheepsaysmeep}

This is my current readslist.

If there's deepscum outside the 3 in the poe, Dannflor's my top pick; I recognize I likely die before him so take that when I flip town and the game's not over.

[Ranger]

This one does not think ofrhz/Ranger as a remaining scumteam is realistic.

Personally, I don't think any team involving me makes sense as it involves contrived logic. Then again, I've got a role PM to bias my perspective.

[Ranger]

Vote RCE with me Ranger?

I've never cared about the order those on the purge list got purged, so I gladly would.

Right now you don't have the votes, sheep does.

[Ranger]

can u explain what u think about me

You have something in common with Morning Tweet.

More than one thing, actually.

[Ranger]

{MUSHSHAGANA}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh, SirCakez, DKKoba}
{Save The Dragons}
{Skygazer}
{Dannflor}
{RCEnigma}
{ofrhz}
{sheepsaysmeep}

This is my current readslist.

If there's deepscum outside the 3 in the poe, Dannflor's my top pick; I recognize I likely die before him so take that when I flip town and the game's not over.

To explain why Dannflor's my top deepwolf pick: gut, respect, and simply believing those above him have more reason to be town than him.

Dannflor's made reasonable stances and even has pushed scum, yet none have felt truly

clearing

of him. He's not doing anything I see as town-indicative, despite his actions being +town.

I'd prefer we purge the slots in the group consensus scumreads first, given he still is being +town. Still, if there

is

scum outside of {RCEnigma, ofrhz, sheepsaysmeep}, I think he's your best shot.

Skygazer's not much better, yet I think she's still likely town. She

could

be scum; she gives off her normal town energy, so I lean against.

Save The Dragons is in his town meta, and inherited the Doctor Drew slot when Drew was in his town meta. I just talked my way into promoting him, as I can't think of a valid reason he's lower. Doubt in the accuracy of my metaread, perhaps; my current inclination is no doubts.

In my penultimate list, any

could

be deepscum; I believe the factors demonstrating they're town outweigh those considerations by a large margin.

Still, a revised readslist;
{MUSHSHAGANA}
{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Meuh, SirCakez, DKKoba}
{Skygazer}
{Dannflor}
{RCEnigma}
{ofrhz}
{sheepsaysmeep}

[Ranger]

I should note; with only two scum remaining, if we speed through eliminations a la the purge, all we really need is to hit scum once, and then we can brute force a win. We need only

two

town players to win.

Purging the playerlist wins unless one of the two selected town players is mafia. PoE genuinely brute forces a win.

My recommended order is {sheepsaysmeep, ofrhz, RCEnigma}->second from the list->third from the list->me if you insist->Dannflor->let the remainder sort it out. Personally I'd go Skygazer->Meuh->SirCakez->DKKoba->HPE with final two as {MUSH, Save The Dragons}.

It doesn't matter to me who gets purged. I maintain purging

is

optimal though.

[Ranger]

VOTE: ofrhz

[Ranger]

i think my vanilla slip is probably within my scumrange tbh

I agree.

I don't think you're scum OR cleared.

On the subject of the slip; I was also operating under the assumption this game was vanilla, and it informed my opinion on slots. I thought everyone claiming roles was {in jest, ignorant of mechanics, desperate scum}. Since it wasn't explicit I understand it not showing clearly in my iso.

[Ranger]

I cannot let the "let's speedrun! no homers!" thing slide, happening when it did and in the way it did.

My faults are mine, yours are yours. I picked the wrong order for the purge and had one scum within my townbloc. You can't accept I had the right idea and botched the precisely correct execution.

The purge would've rid us of xyzzy, ofrhz, sheepsaysmeep, RCEnigma, and Morning Tweet. That should be at minimum, 3/5, in exchange for not getting BlueSnakelet. If resumed with rapidfire eliminations starting on, say, ofrhz, the likely result from introducing BlueSnakelet is at minimum 4/5.

[Ranger]

Let's please just get ofrhz dead? No one's been hard-defending the slot, the slot is coasting, the gamestate is stagnant, a flip should help us along.

Hear hear! Stop slacking, everyone and let's get the game going before Tommy gets it going for us.

You could even call it...

...a purge.

Starting with, say, ofrhz. I'd prefer into sheepsaysmeep > RCEnigma, could be vice-versa.

[Ranger]

I don't even see how to get lims through with this ridiculous voting blocs setup

Well if you voted ofrhz, we'd be close to instantly getting one.

[Ranger]

We have ofrhz if either sheepsaysmeep/Meuh vote there.

Or 3/3 of {DKKoba, RCEnigma, MUSHSHAGANA}; that's obviously harder to achieve.

[Ranger]

VOTE: RCEnigma

P U R G E

[Ranger]

Well...not bad!

Apologies I missed BlueSnakelet.

[Ranger]

{Morning Tweet}
{RCEnigma}
{xyzzy}
{ofrhz}

Not bad, according to schadd.