Veiled Committee Mafia: List Mods Edition [game over]

[Ircher]

VOTE: AniX

[Ircher]

I want to remind everyone the last time I played forum mafia (I want to say 2004? early 2005?) I think only Dragon was on the site and one or more of you might not even have been born so please cut me some slack when I eventually lose the game for the town. I am effectively a newbie and since I just shuttered the newbie queue and fired the newbie mod, I really am rudderless right now.

Anyway, I kind of want to vote Save the Dragons, I really want to be able to say "I haven't played since before any living player joined". Can we make that happen?

All you have to do to win is ask us some random questions and then fake claim a guilty on your top scum read. It's simple, and it's guaranteed to result in victory.

[Ircher]

VOTE: camelCaseSnivy

[Ircher]

Why are we wagoning Random Nurse?

[Ircher]

anix barely has reads for someone posting with such verbosity

I think I'm actually pretty above the curve at reading people's roles on day 1 without a night having occurred for us to even know what COULD happen at night.

Why are you doing that? Is it a subconscious thing?

[Ircher]

And I'm not saying "My reads are confirmed right and you all are idiots for not immediately voting as I demand". I get people can doubt these are their roles or doubt my implications about what those role mean in terms of alignment or anything else. it's Day 1, nobody trusts anything and I'm not 100% in on any of them. But that's different from "AniX has no reads and is just talking to talk". I'm been pretty focused on talking about what roles I think people have and how we can get more roles from people this whole time.

I disagree. Roles are not indicative of alignment and therefore are a poor basis for reads.

[Ircher]

anix barely has reads for someone posting with such verbosity

But how can we mech solve with so little information?
I think I'm actually pretty above the curve at reading people's roles on day 1 without a night having occurred for us to even know what COULD happen at night.

Why are you doing that? Is it a subconscious thing?

Because I think mechsolving is THE most important part of this game right now.

[Ircher]

anix barely has reads for someone posting with such verbosity

But how can we mech solve with so little information?
I think I'm actually pretty above the curve at reading people's roles on day 1 without a night having occurred for us to even know what COULD happen at night.

Why are you doing that? Is it a subconscious thing?

Because I think mechsolving is THE most important part of this game right now.

But how can we mech solve with so little information? (The forum decided to eat my last post...)

[Ircher]

maybe im wrong ive read staggeringly little

but im resonating with what bingle is putting down too

counterargument: who is mafia then

(i personally have 5 slots that are unranked and potential scum but the questions stands)

I don't think this question stands. Even if we suppose AniX is mafia, there's still more mafia to find.

[Ircher]

ali either randed a good team if mafia or is simply town

*looks at PL*

i say town

The game just started. This is a strange take.

[Ircher]

anix being scum is an easy take?

I think so.

[Ircher]

VOTE: DkKoba

[Ircher]

cannot decide if drewposting is +town or -town

i think +town

drew can be town

why did you vote in the first place ?

bandwagoning

i find wagons are more effective the more people are on them

i’m bored of this wagon

UNVOTE: drew

Why did it take so long to unvote?

[Ircher]

Anix has felt off since the beginning of the game, trying to blame their weirdness on being from a different era and not voting me but sussing me early is kind of weird. Since then, their actions have only gotten weirder.

:thorface:

I don’t think AniX has made any excuses for their play, actually. I think AniX has given a reason for mech focus, but afaicr all of the explanations for why the {performative/stilted} thus {scum} being bullshit have been me.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but the only AniX is town assertions have been me and people saying “Bingle sounds right.” Regardless, that some people, regardless of the number, think AniX is town doesn’t make the push of AniX is scum for being weird any less of an easy push, and it is provably false that that is not a stance many people are taking. I would be shocked if there wasn’t scum in that mess of names, and your takes look the worst of them to me.

I bet this word soup comes from scum.

[Ircher]

I'll paraphrase

Me: anix doesn't have reads
Anix: here are my reads
Me: no those don't count because they are nonsense. You dont have reads.
Anix: you didn't say it in the specific way I require you to say it

W/e I'm disengaging we can continue this stupid argument when I go back to voting you

STD: "You don't have reads"
AniX: "Actually I do, here they are"
STD: "No that doesn't count because I have secretly determined they are nonsense, no I will not elaborate"
AniX: "That isn't an argument"
STD: "YOU ARE BEING PEDANTIC AGAIN!"

Yeah, ok.

I agree with this interpretation of events.

[Ircher]

I’m down to murder drew. VOTE: Drew

Why Drew?

[Ircher]

I'm still satisfied voting Koba here. Dragons would also make a good fade.

[Ircher]

Maybe?

[Ircher]

Maybe?

Any desire to post your maybe case now that you're on the clock?

No, not really.

[Ircher]

ok im the most impatient person of all time but i think cook and drew are both mafia together

also feel weird abt how alisae is treating drew but thats a future koba problem

std/ranger/bingle/dragoneater/random nurse/theta are all slots i think i am comfortable just saying are town atp (bingle is giving me his kinda weird town playstyle vibes like i kinda had insight into his thought process during TM and while i disagree with the process sometimes I feel I understand it)

forgive me and i suppose that i can’t really comment on it but i really don’t see how me/drew is a pairing? i understand that my progression has left something to be desired and it’s easy to try to pull association off of me based on which wagons i’ve cared about.

still don’t see me-drew.

Didn't you just explain it in this very post? You hopped onto Drew then got cold feet and said Drew was town. You then waited an hour before actually hopping off.

[Ircher]

anix barely has reads for someone posting with such verbosity

I think I'm actually pretty above the curve at reading people's roles on day 1 without a night having occurred for us to even know what COULD happen at night.

Why are you doing that? Is it a subconscious thing?

Why are they doing what?

Reading people's roles on day 1.

[Ircher]

So far, I've got this, correct me if I'm wrong.

Fully Claimed?

Doctor Drew:

- Eternal Universal Backup, inherits the role of the last town player to die, for the entire game.

Theta Alpine:

Temporary treestump of those investigating as a different alignment to her, must be used within 24 hours of the player's death.

DKKoba:

Miller of some kind, flips as random role in the game until that role dies.

Bingle:

Immune townie, can't be altered in any way/shape/form, can choose between bp or ascetic.

Alisae:

1x ignite arsonist, can mark one person per night up to two, can ignite once in game killing marked targets.

Cook:

Modifier, gives random negative utility to target.

camelCasedSnivy:

3x Baker, gives out goods which can self-roleblock when eaten, baked goods can be passed on.

KatyKimFanClub:

Revealer, reveals a random player's role if killed. (Sounds like what some call the Oracle role.)

Partial Claimed:

Ranger:

Miller, details beyond unclaimed.

AniX:

Ability triggers upon performing certain actions or lack thereof during the day. Might not have fullclaimed.

Skygazer:

Gives people control of vote on even days. Takes control of actions in some unspecified way.

Unclaimed?

Random Nurse:

Unclaimed

JasonWazza:

Unclaimed

DragonEater70:

Unclaimed?

Save The Dragons:

Unclaimed

Ircher:

Unclaimed

Aureal:

Unclaimed

1) Are we mass claiming?
2) Why are we mass claiming?
3) Bingle and Alisae's roles look like traditional scum roles, but I'm not sure how much that applies to this specific game.

[Ircher]

I'll say I believe I'm in the same role group as Cook and camelCasedSnivy. I won't say why yet; their claims seem to have something I believe puts them in the same writing wheelhouse as mine.

Do you think rule of 3 applies here then?

[Ircher]

Fully Claimed?

Doctor Drew:

- Eternal Universal Backup, inherits the role of the last town player to die, for the entire game.

There definitely is something off with you Ranger.

You are being a bit.....weird.

I lack context, but what's wrong with Ranger's summary of your role? Why is it weird?

[Ircher]

ok no one is arguing against mass claim

im a baker i can give out baked goods 3 times to people

they can eat the baked goods which essentially roleblocks them SPOILER ALERT!!

people can also pass the baked goods at night

If you hadn't claimed, would your targets had known the goods role blocked them? It feels like claiming your role loses all its utility because now no one will eat them.

[Ircher]

Anyway, it looks like we are mass claiming, so my ability is a day action, but it's effects occur during the night and following day. I can create a neighborhood with a player to speak with for one night, but I lose my vote on the following day.

[Ircher]

Idk if the roleclaiming is done but soon we can try to bucket all the roles right?

ranger's a holdout

again waiting on ranger and anix to claim

Saying it again probably isn't going to make them go any faster.

[Ircher]

This is me not voting drew

If it wasn't obvious, I lied when I said STD was a strong scum power role I'd rather not bus.

Truth is, Doctor Drew's the strong scum power and Alisae's screaming in the scum chat to not bus Drew.

I'm a rebel.

You know full well in a scenario where Ali and I are buddies they would have no problem bussing me, you literally saw it happen once. Disingenuous.

cannot decide if drewposting is +town or -town
i think +town

You think wrong. This is Doctor Drew's scum meta.

This is more disingenuousness, you were only one of a few who pegged me as scum in Boons Ahoy, so it makes no sense your reads on me as a whole can change so quickly. You even admitted that you didn't say I changed my meta, just that I could. So I can't believe that you look at the two games and so confidently say that this is my scum meta here.

I agree with 803/804; Cook demonstrated an inconsistency between the Doctor Drew and Random Nurse wagons. Cook's treatment of Doctor Drew is suspect. Cook's focus there feels like that of a scumbuddy.

I prefer voting Doctor Drew though.

I agree that this game has been pretty productive (or at least prolific) and so I don't really feel the need for a massclaim anymore.

While hitting scum gives us the luxury of delaying massclaim,

we've no guarantee aside from faith in the accuracy of, say, my read on Doctor Drew. I'm rather certain I'm right; if I was wrong, a mislim + no massclaim combo would be quite bad.

I'd prefer a Doctor Drew elimination.

I'd still prefer a massclaim first.

So you are telling me Ranger that you are so confident in your read on me that you would push a play(the massclaim) that you even say would be bad if I were to flip town(or any mislim). There is so much that can go wrong there, you know what you are doing here and it isnt town motivated.

on the one hand i do agree this seems like scum drew

Lol, being a little survivalistic there Theta?

theta discouraging massclaim is modifying my viewpoint of her
VOTE: Theta
let’s see something outta this slot

Nice try.

It'd work better if I hadn't been in a prior game with scum-Theta deliberately distancing with her scum partners.

Again referencing Boons Ahoy, I was the one doing the bulk of the distancing from Theta, Theta actually wasn't a big game of it. More lies and disingenuous behavior.

theta and dragon are both towny ? not understanding the scumreads

Theta Alpine's playing like she does as scum, and I don't believe her claim. The latter will be more clear after a massclaim.

WRT Drew, he feels like a little bit muted version of his scumgame to me. Any thoughts on why he's somehow less than I'd expect from scumdrew?

He knows his scum meta and he knows this game has players who know his scum meta. In particular, I was able to correctly identify Doctor Drew was in his scum meta when other players thought he was out of it. He can try to change his meta, yet as long as I live, he has reason to respect me. My theory; he's muted because he knows he's not fooling me.

why is your default that I must be trying to 'change my meta'.......and not 'hey this is a different Drew, they might be town'.

I believe you're being deliberately disingenuous.

Bingle believes you're more subdued than your normal scumgame. He wanted to hear my theory as to why. I provided it. I still believe you're in your scum meta. I didn't say you were changing your meta. Quite the opposite. I said you were avoiding doing so, while I live.

Where was I being deliberately disingenuous?

1135 and now 1153.

I didn't say you were trying to change your meta. I said you

could

.

These last few I already commented on, but this is where she basically ran out of ideas on how to drive my mis-elim and just pointed to posts without actually explaining her reads. Then it just turned into a bit a snark, from me as well back to here, which as pointed out by Bingle isn't helping anyone(also ironically was devolving into what I was having issues with the whole Anix/Koba thing.....I was becoming what I hate!!). But the frustration I was having with Ranger is the same frustration I have with Titus as scum and was having flashbacks to those back and forths lol.

Sorry for the wall, on phone and it is a pain trying to cut the fat from some of the quoted posts.

This isn't a bad case (I think the part about mass claim is a good one), but Ranger always expresses confidence even when the confidence doesn't exist.

[Ircher]

You can't just say words and expect everyone to know what you mean.

Sure I can, when they have an established meaning.

not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

1158/1141 are self-contained. It WAS the explanation. In 1135/1153, you claimed I was saying you were changing your meta. I didn't say that. By arguing something I didn't say, you were being...
...guess. (Disingenuous.)

Was 1135/1153 actually disingenuous? Yes, it's true that you didn't explicitly state in 1083 that Drew was changing his meta, but you did say, "He can try to change his meta, yet as long as I live, he has reason to respect me. My theory; he's muted because he knows he's not fooling me." I can see Drew reasonably interpreting that as you implying he was changing his meta, especially if he wasn't paying close attention to what you said.

You've been repeatedly twisting my words the entire time. 1420 is disingenuous, because that's self-evidently not what I said. Nothing has changed my read because you've been spouting more of the same nonsense continuously. That doesn't mean nothing could. It meant exactly what I said.

This seems reasonable.

992 was me making a joke, so using it as if it were dead serious is... (yup.)

I think it goes both ways. Sarcasm is not always the easiest to infer from mere words. Furthermore, even if we do take 992 as a joke (which to be fair, it does sort of look like one), I don't think 1385 is an unreasonable response. Most jokes have at least a kernel of truth to them, and I think Drew is responding to that aspect.

In 1174, you asked where my trolling and sly humor has been. I answered with a link to my iso because both traits have been present my entire iso. It was itself a sufficient (as well as snarky) answer. So 1178 was...

...you get the idea.

Perhaps it would've been more effective to link the specific posts demonstrating the traits? If someone isn't seeing it to begin with and you go, "Read my ISO", I don't think that is going to encourage them to reevaluate.

ranger and koba are on the same team

What are you basing this on?

ranger and koba are on the same team

beyond that it seems like drew is a good kill

also still waiting on Clout to post

This is a weird couple of posts though.

I am the good kill, but Koba and Ranger are on the same team.

Usually when you say two players are on the same team, you mean they are buddies......if you thought they were both town, you would say they were both town.

Do you know they are both town Cook?

Pre Edit: What lie about Rangers meta?

This is strange now that you point it out. I can see interpretations where it might make sense, but I would like to see what Cook says.

ranger and koba are on the same team

beyond that it seems like drew is a good kill

also still waiting on Clout to post

This is a weird couple of posts though.

I am the good kill, but Koba and Ranger are on the same team.

Usually when you say two players are on the same team, you mean they are buddies......if you thought they were both town, you would say they were both town.

Do you know they are both town Cook?

Pre Edit: What lie about Rangers meta?

sorry for not making that clearer

if they are town they are town together (more likely case)

if they are scum they are scum together

not helpful to be pedantic about wording

it comes off as shallow in an untrustworthy manner. you might also call that… everybody say it with me now…

No, being pedantic is good. Not doing so makes you miss all the important cues.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Cook

[Ircher]

"what if"

imma stop u right there

u forgot the "what if its town"

Do you think Drew's posts are scum motivated, or could he be a lost townie?

[Ircher]

idunno how to explain it but your posting agitates me. Rarely does it add anything new

I get what you're saying. Honestly I really struggle to play when I'm being townread, because then nobody is interacting with me and I sort of become a spectator. And also I don't feel any pressure this game to really read deeply into it and find scum, both because of the deadline thing and because of being too townread.
Blegh.
Can someone please vote me? Also, I'll try to motivate myself to take a more critical look at some of my townreads and see if I townbinned some scum.

Assuming there's a reason for this but kinda rushed and not able to fully catch up:

VOTE: Dragoneater

It doesn't look to me like there was a reason to vote Dragon beyond giving Dragon motivation for the game. I don't think this actually accomplishes much.

[Ircher]

I don't understand how Koba flipping as a random scum role is an investigative unless the person with the role trueclaimed it. We aren't even going to know if the role is really his or not unless someone else flips as the same role are we?

Eh, it has decent enough odds to be worth considering. People have already claimed and locked their roles in, so it would be tough to renegade on that. I guess Koba could be lying about flipping as a scum role.. but that results in a likely neutral outcome since we'd fade scum Koba and then likely fade a townie with a similar claimed role.

[Ircher]

better people then me have done the setup spec

we are trying to finish a mass claim at this point and it is starting to drag on too much
why blame me for following through with an action i said i would do

I think blame is a poor choice for a word here as it implies negative connotation on my actions not yours and it feels like you are trying for appeasment and forgiveness. You are doing action x I am saying action x is more likely to come from mafia for reasons y and z. If you are not confident in setup speculation, why give credence to it? Or do you both trust someone in this game to do the setup speculation and that person you trust you are confident is 100% town? If the answer is no to either of these questions then your play on this page is both illogical and shows you are bloodthirsty trying to get a lim. as the lim in question PC may or may not claim to you as mafia it is a 50/50 chance of a lim.

This is a pretty bad argument. You don't need to be 100% confident in a player's setup spec OR towniness to go along with them. As long as you trust the play to be sensible and logical, that is enough.

if you forgot in your posts in your iso you talk about claiming a bit and what people should do have you forgotten? I have given you a modifier.

also nothing is dragging on to much we have at best infinite days at worst a mod imposed deadline.

Just because we have "unlimited" time doesn't mean we should allow things to take longer than necessary.

I have just replaced in it feels like people have stagnated and are ignoring the number 1 objective and have replaced it with another objective: claiming assuming it will achieve the number 1 objective: catch scum.

I mean, claims CAN catch scum. It's not guaranteed, sure, but you're acting like it has no utility. People's reluctance or eagerness to claim can also be indicative of their alignments irrespective of their claims.

You have not demonstrated this if other people have are you willing to follow them? if so why?

I have more thoughts that I think I'll keep to myself. I think kkoba vote is on balance interesting considering his postion on mr. dragon. logically it doesn't follow even with the town read. he goes down in my reads list. sad.

I am an investigative role.

this entire interaction is designed to test whether I have confirmation bias on you theta or whether I will tunnel you to death.

VOTE: theta alpine

Why not full claim? You haven't given a reason to not do so other than you seem to disagree with the mass claim (which to be fair may not have been the best move), but with it already in motion and having already revealed your general role type, I don't see why you are holding back on the specifics.

this has already been decided
you are one of the last few to have not claimed
you are either claiming or dying and if you really want to pick a 1v1 with someone whose ability can create mod announcements to prove their own role then feel free to

I would say this role is likely to be scum sided as it exists fundamentally to only forment chaos.

Why do you think that's the only use of the role?

also with roles like that that involve recruitment and all that i am worried about stuff like RadientCowbells anything upick where ppl foolishly prayed to this player when they died even tho they were obviously scum early game and they just turbo bussed to get an alternative wincon.

not enabling anyone elses role like that

I don't think it was /that/ obvious, at least not at first. With that said, I agree that this is a concern here.

aureal trying to push they are town for role is like one of those classic role madness scumclaims lol. not that im ever gonna use that as a sole reason but the more they push it the more i just wanna tunnel harder

So you try to push that I'm scum for my role and then call it a scumclaim when I think otherwise. Wow. Okay. I was starting to think maybe you weren't actually scum, but you're really trying to make the case that your scumflip will be a real scumflip and not this 'death miller' thing, aren't you?

why does anyone townread this slot btw

koba what’s your poe atm

mine is aureal clout drew. one of those three are who i’m happy with atm subject to change and people yelling at me

Theta Alpine
DragonEater70
Bingle
AniX
Ranger
Save The Dragons
Random Nurse
Political Clout
Skygazer
Cook
camelCasedSnivy
Alisae
KatyKimFanClub
Doctor Drew
Ircher
Aureal

Is this ordered?

(sheeping political clout)

Why?

[Ircher]

16 roles that are bizarre Frankenstein creations, most of them patchworks of different abilities, restrictions, and left-field powers.
1 role that is a one-shot cop but only if the town gets really lucky day 1.

It just doesn't add.

I agree.

[Ircher]

Why do you distrust camel?

[Ircher]

VOTE: Ranger cause theta just isn't worth limming claimwise

ranger and koba are on the same team

beyond that it seems like drew is a good kill

also still waiting on Clout to post

This is a weird couple of posts though.

I am the good kill, but Koba and Ranger are on the same team.

Usually when you say two players are on the same team, you mean they are buddies......if you thought they were both town, you would say they were both town.

Do you know they are both town Cook?

Pre Edit: What lie about Rangers meta?

sorry for not making that clearer

if they are town they are town together (more likely case)

if they are scum they are scum together

not helpful to be pedantic about wording

it comes off as shallow in an untrustworthy manner. you might also call that… everybody say it with me now…

What changed between these two posts?

[Ircher]

Like unless we get lucky, we are going to lim a townfolk, lose the cop ability anyway, AND lose an actually useful role tonight. No lim saves us at least one townie, likely two, AND gives us a shot at a investigation.

This seems reasonable. I'm on board with it.

[Ircher]

VOTE: No Fade

[Ircher]

VOTE: Ranger cause theta just isn't worth limming claimwise

ranger and koba are on the same team

beyond that it seems like drew is a good kill

also still waiting on Clout to post

This is a weird couple of posts though.

I am the good kill, but Koba and Ranger are on the same team.

Usually when you say two players are on the same team, you mean they are buddies......if you thought they were both town, you would say they were both town.

Do you know they are both town Cook?

Pre Edit: What lie about Rangers meta?

sorry for not making that clearer

if they are town they are town together (more likely case)

if they are scum they are scum together

not helpful to be pedantic about wording

it comes off as shallow in an untrustworthy manner. you might also call that… everybody say it with me now…

What changed between these two posts?

@Cook, you never answered this.

[Ircher]

That doesn't really answer how your read on

Ranger

changed.

[Ircher]

also how is having two roles that counter each other +scum

Doctor has utility to the town.
Vig has utility to the town.
They can counter each other, yet individually provide utility.

I negate passives and modifiers. While this

could

be +scum if used badly (ungating scum, removing a

positive

modifier from town), used properly, this is a massively +town ability because it removes the negative utility from roles which were balanced by having them. (By 'balanced', I mean by their designer.)

You create, explicitly negative, modifiers. While there's theoretical utility

if

you target correctly

and

the modifier provided is actually truly negative, it's a power which shouldn't be used.

i'd still think there's utility to be had depending on the modifier

The interaction between our two roles is akin to that of a Strongwilled Inventor (me) vs. Roleblocker (you).

If you received a Strongwilled Inventor and saw a Roleblocker claim, what alignment would you think the Roleblocker? Because Strongwilled Inventor is a

direct counter

to the Roleblocker in that scenario.

i'd be scum if i were a strongwilled inventor there's no reason for a role that strong to be put on townside and nobody in this group of designers likes tentpole roles

This doesn't make sense. How is a strong willed inventor an overpowered town role?

Same reason here.

Could

our roles both be town? Sure. Yet the groups of four must contain one scum within, and if I'm correct about our group, it means

someone

there is scum, and my bet's on the player whose role my role directly counters.

VOTE: Cook

frankly quite offended at your vote but yknow you've got that nice shovel invention might as well tunnel with it

Why are you assuming Ranger is tunneling you here?

[Ircher]

Maybe but it seems like Cook went straight for the AtE which isn't a good look.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Cook

[Ircher]

votecount 1.15

it's been two nights in a row that i've had to fully change shirts after i was done exercising because i was sweaty. is this just because it's so hot, or a result of me exercising really good? i honestly have no idea. i'm gonna have so much laundry to do. y'know, in past games, i've used this flavor text area for a lot more just little quotes and references and what have you, and that's not to say i haven't done any of those this time around, but i'm really using it as more of a journal. hope you're enjoying it if you're reading it!

4 players voting for Cook (Ircher, Ranger, camelCasedSnivy, Ircher)
3 players voting for camelCasedSnivy (Political Clout, Cook, DragonEater70)
2 players voting for Aureal (DkKoba, Bingle)
2 players voting for DragonEater70 (Aureal, KatyKimFanClub)
1 player voting for Theta Alpine (Deltabreedy)
1 player voting for Political Clout (AniX)

5 players not voting (Alisae, Random Nurse, Theta Alpine, Save The Dragons, Skygazer)

with 17 votes, it takes 9 to eliminate.

mod notes: Doctor Drew is replaced by Deltabreedy! still looking for an Alisae replacement.

I'm listed as voting for Cook twice. To my knowledge, I am not a doublevoter.

[Ircher]

can we just kill aureal and move on? like I kinda don't care to read more bad faith shade from them tbh LOL

Like read thru the points, they're all trying to frame things that look "weird" or "undesirable" (like stuff that appears anti-town on the surface) to push DE and it just gives "scum desperate to get an easy looking miskill through"

No. Cook is a better fade.

[Ircher]

It is also a

guaranteed

gain of not eliminating another town player.

In a 9p Cop + Doc vs Roleblocker setup, no-limming D1's a guarantee of not eliminating the doctor, cop, or any town.

What would your response be to a player suggesting a nolim D1 in that setup?

Same deal here.

Your logic applies to every game on mafiascum. Every game would guarantee no town elimination on D1 if they nolim D1.

There's good reason we take the risk.

I think a key difference here is this is role madness where as a newbie is not. Even if scum kill one role, there's a lot of other roles that can also provide information, so the loss in information from not fading D1 is less impactful. In a newbie, you might no lim and have the cop immediately killed in which case no limming was clearly a poor move. Here, we have redundancies in place that makes that a less compelling argument against no limming.

[Ircher]

Is Aureal even in hammer range?

[Ircher]

Last I checked, the biggest wagon had like... 4 votes.

[Ircher]

can someone trustworthy tell me if I should be voting aureal

No, you shouldn't.

[Ircher]

This ponzi scheme bores me.

[Ircher]

That doesn't mitigate the fact it's boring. It's cheap, sure, but it is still boring for the rest of us.

[Ircher]

That's not a very good case.

[Ircher]

AniX
Political Clout
Ranger
Theta Alpine
Save The Dragons
Aureal
Alisae
Deltabreedy
Random Nurse
camelCasedSnivy
DragonEater70
KatyKimFanClub
DkKoba
Bingle
Skygazer
Cook

[Ircher]

What do you think of me wanting to be functionally daycopped if I'm 3rd from the bottom, Ircher? Do you think I'm scum with Theta or bluffing?

Probably bluffing. You don't actually think you'll get copped.

[Ircher]

AniX
Political Clout
Ranger
Theta Alpine
Save The Dragons
Aureal
Alisae
Deltabreedy
Random Nurse
camelCasedSnivy
DragonEater70
KatyKimFanClub
DkKoba
Bingle
Skygazer
Cook

I really hate this readlist, which is not surprising considering I think Ircher has been consistently scummy this game, but I'll bite:
Care to explain your reads?

Not really. I'll elaborate on why Cook is scum though (and

maybe

on why AniX is town later): the way she voted Drew in 683 and then continued voting Drew in 716 despite expressing a town read there was slimy. She then unvotes in 722, but it isn't because of her professed town read but because she is "bored of this wagon". That doesn't necessarily mean she is aligned with Drew (but she could be); however, it does come across as the kind of wishy-washy read that scum like to put out to avoid taking accountable stances. 815 and 817 are the kind of follow-ups I's expect scum to make. "Well, gee, I can't change the past, so you should just drop this line of attack." Like no, you should accept accountability for your actions rather than immediately going on the defensive.

The claim is scummy too. Apparently, she doesn't know what the modifier she provides before she provides it... but she learns what it is after she uses her action... I'm sorry, but I've seen very few roles that actually work that way. I don't think the moderators would actually design a role like that. Most roles are designed such that you either know what happens in advance, or it's random and you don't know what specifically happened. Thus, this seems like something Cook made up to give her enough room for maneuvering when she uses her actual ability.

1258 and 1282 were bad because they are just noise, don't actually accomplish their intended effect (if anything, it will just make the process slower due to spite), and are also ignorant of how Ranger explained she wasn't claiming immediately but would get to it when she could.

[Ircher]

when the 1st and 2nd best players at mech at the table are yelling that this is obviously bad, (jingle #1, me #2), maybe listen ?? or kill us first?

I'm getting mixed signals from Bingle actually considering how Bingle seems to also be encouraging the use of Aureal's ability:

Are you interested in learning about a unique investment opportunity?

Aye.

in the interest of saving time then i will probably just ask the mod if desperate would affect the recruiting or neighborizing actions

and then go for two slots i think might be scum

getting a long string of conf towns would be nice but uh
i also do not want to be here in day one for another week

Target me. You should fail, I should be both conftown and bp. Literally, I will be unkillable conftown. The only thing that can pierce my protection as it is worded would be a role like Alisae's which would make alisae very obvscum were I to die.

[Ircher]

I'm pointing iut the disconnect between Bingle's words and actions. That's not cherrypicking.

[Ircher]

I can go quote more examples if you'd like.

[Ircher]

he doesn't think the role is potentially game ending for town like I do, he just shares that it is not a town role by design and how they expressed it

thats not "words and actions not matching"

Again, if it's not a town role, why is Bingle actively encouraging the use of it? That doesn't make sense.

[Ircher]

VOTE: cook

Let's see what happens here. With the people not voting.

VOTE: aureal

What changed?

[Ircher]

i'm checked out lets kill someone already

Kill Cook.

[Ircher]

@ircher to see what happens and I've resigned myself to be okay with either death.

Didn't Cook have more votes at the time? What did you expect to happen?

[Ircher]

I’m not using a recruitment phrase because I wasn’t given any indication that there was a specific phrase for recruitment. Rather, you have heavily implied it was all asking about amway or marketing. If I was given the information that there is a specific recruitment phrase by being recruited, it’d be pretty useless for me to not use it. But your bad faith shade is pretty much exactly on message with the rest of your bad faith interactions.

Idk, I think Aureal raises a good point that if you don't know the precise recruitment phase, you should copy the phrase used by someone else who does know the correct phase. How else will we be able to vet whether the power works as described ir not?

[Ircher]

Serious question:
Do you think it's possible the all/most of scum are just the lurkers?

No. 1 or 2 perhaps, but it's unlikely all of the lurkers are scum. We have plenty of people here who are good at hiding their true alignment.

[Ircher]

Do you think it's possible the all/most of scum are just the lurkers?

If both Aureal, theta and Cook are town I'd say it's pretty much required. Most of the people who are being active and solvey are pretty transparently town at this point.

How are you protecting yourself from confirmation bias here? "Well, they are active and look like they are solving," isn't the same as being town who

is

solving.

[Ircher]

the recruitment phrases are very specific and as far as i can tell have to be exact including potentially formatting

neither part of the day recruiting counts as an action and thus targeting modifiers like desperate will not effect it
however any abilities earned from being in amway would be

This is confusingly worded. Can you explain it more clearly with an emphasis on why the last part applies but not regular modifiers?

[Ircher]

atp feel like dragoneater might be coached scum by aureal to never push on her

No I pushed her hard earlier.
I might still push her.
I'm still trying to figure things out because I think the solve is either:
Cook/Drew/2 others
Or
Aureal/Ircher/2 others

And I don't think these are compatible, and right now I'm leaning the first option but if Cook flips town then I'd definitely go for the second.

Why can’t it be cook/aureal? That’s a world I think is very likely.

So why aren't you interested in voting Cook

now

? Why are you focusing all your energy on Aureal?

[Ircher]

why is cook scummy

AniX
Political Clout
Ranger
Theta Alpine
Save The Dragons
Aureal
Alisae
Deltabreedy
Random Nurse
camelCasedSnivy
DragonEater70
KatyKimFanClub
DkKoba
Bingle
Skygazer
Cook

I really hate this readlist, which is not surprising considering I think Ircher has been consistently scummy this game, but I'll bite:
Care to explain your reads?

Not really. I'll elaborate on why Cook is scum though (and

maybe

on why AniX is town later): the way she voted Drew in 683 and then continued voting Drew in 716 despite expressing a town read there was slimy. She then unvotes in 722, but it isn't because of her professed town read but because she is "bored of this wagon". That doesn't necessarily mean she is aligned with Drew (but she could be); however, it does come across as the kind of wishy-washy read that scum like to put out to avoid taking accountable stances. 815 and 817 are the kind of follow-ups I's expect scum to make. "Well, gee, I can't change the past, so you should just drop this line of attack." Like no, you should accept accountability for your actions rather than immediately going on the defensive.

The claim is scummy too. Apparently, she doesn't know what the modifier she provides before she provides it... but she learns what it is after she uses her action... I'm sorry, but I've seen very few roles that actually work that way. I don't think the moderators would actually design a role like that. Most roles are designed such that you either know what happens in advance, or it's random and you don't know what specifically happened. Thus, this seems like something Cook made up to give her enough room for maneuvering when she uses her actual ability.

1258 and 1282 were bad because they are just noise, don't actually accomplish their intended effect (if anything, it will just make the process slower due to spite), and are also ignorant of how Ranger explained she wasn't claiming immediately but would get to it when she could.

[Ircher]

First person to quote this gets

culted

amway'd

[Ircher]

cook's play is fine, townier than yours i might add, as i find it odd you dropped the readslist thing and are actively pushing reasoning.

This needs some citations.

[Ircher]

First person to quote this gets

culted

amway'd

Do you want to learn about a secret to financial freedom?

Sure

[Ircher]

First person to quote this gets

culted

amway'd

Do you want to learn about a secret to financial freedom?

Sure

DON'T TAKE THE AMWAY TODAY, IRCHER

It's the only way to show that you aren't scum theatering with KKFC ._.

Isn't it a bit late to be saying this?

[Ircher]

Or was that sarcasm? I can't tell tbh.

[Ircher]

I guess I'll indulge DragonEater and talk some about why I'm town reading AniX. It's on the longer side (mainly because I wrote too many words and less because of the number of points I'm making), so I'm spoiler-ing it.

Spoiler:

AniX started out Day 1 with a very high mechanical focus (and arguably continues to have a large focus on mechanics.) While this could be construed as scum trying to hide behind mechanics to avoid scum hunting, I get the opposite impression from AniX. For instance, AniX did a good job explaining why DragonEater's action/role could be scum indicative in 220. You don't necessarily have to agree with the reasoning here (or the conclusion); what matters is that AniX is using the information AniX is collecting about roles to determine alignments. It's an unconventional approach, but AniX gave a good explanation about why it's a viable and perhaps worthwhile approach in 601 and 1071.

We then have the whole no elimination suggestion from AniX. Once again, this is something very easy for people to give a surface level of take of "no lim is bad and is only suggested by scum", but the way that AniX went about this is town. It is town indicative because AniX clearly explains why in 1955 is viable and directly gives a counterargument that explains why the traditional argument against no lim doesn't apply here. This is again a case of "you don't have to agree with the reasoning", but the motivations behind it ring as town-aligned. AniX isn't bringing up no lim because AniX is scum thinking AniX can fool us into it; AniX brought it up because AniX believes it is an optimal play for town, and that is town indicative because it shows that AniX has town interests in mind.

I expect some of you will be, "But surely scum AniX could do these same things!" That may be true, but I don't think it would come to the same depth. Scum want to avoid doing things that attract unnecessary attention, and scum also like to have more wishy-washy stances so that they can backtrack more easily later in the game. AniX has taken firm stances here and provided solid reasoning behind them (again, you don't have to agree with it) to support that AniX isn't doing it just for show but because AniX believes in the stances.

[Ircher]

Okay so assuming xyzzy creates the hood, Ircher shouldn't accept KKFC's recruitment.

Instead he should be Skygazer's recruit, right? Or Theta can recruit Ircher and Ircher can then recruit skygazer, but Ircher should be a Theta recruit, whether directly or indirectly

I'm confused. What difference does it make?

[Ircher]

Yes, the hood was established. I haven't done anything with the invite yet.

[Ircher]

Yes, the hood was established. I haven't done anything with the invite yet.

I have a product that has helped so many people achieve their goals.

You have my attention.

[Ircher]

Maybe if Bingle would stop putting out bad takes, I wouldn't feel like my most important task is correcting them!

Who do you see actually "playing Mafia" at this point as opposed to just going "ugh let's kill someone!"?

Let's just kill Cook.

[Ircher]

Maybe if Bingle would stop putting out bad takes, I wouldn't feel like my most important task is correcting them!

Who do you see actually "playing Mafia" at this point as opposed to just going "ugh let's kill someone!"?

Let's just kill Cook.

Cook is obvious town and your confbias is getting on my nerves too.

You've yet to explain how Cook is obvious town whereas I have explained why Cook is scum. Maybe you should check your own confirmation bias.

[Ircher]

Maybe if Bingle would stop putting out bad takes, I wouldn't feel like my most important task is correcting them!

Who do you see actually "playing Mafia" at this point as opposed to just going "ugh let's kill someone!"?

Let's just kill Cook.

Let's kill Klick? Please?

Klick would be the apathy elimination. Klick could flip town, or Klick could flip scum, but it would provide far less information than eliminating Cook since most of the case comes down to "Random Nurse decided not to participate in this game." The meta argument is mostly an extension of that. I'd rather flip Cook here since the odds of scum are at least as good as Klick, but it would also be more informative given the number of non-activity related stances taken there.

[Ircher]

in the likely event this doesnt take off i will consolidate at some point

It's not going to take off.

[Ircher]

anix how does no lim remotely help us in this situation we have several caught scum it's not like we're going to mislim and lose tempo or something

Who are our caught scum, and if they are caught scum, why haven't we faded them yet?

[Ircher]

i am mistrustful of amway in general i dunno if i want it

Do you want to learn about a secret to financial freedom?

[Ircher]

ill probably put aureal at e1 soon

OMFG

Since you and Ircher are the ones in control of getting one more recruit for Theta and aren't doing it, and town is not pressing the matter, it seems that we have decided through COLLECTIVE APATHY that we do not want another investigative tonight.

So WTF are you waiting for?!

If you're saying "that's right, we don't want to have a cop action tonight" then just fucking VOTE: Aureal and end this fucking day already so I can unbookmark all this BS and stop having an apoplectic meltdown every time Koba, Bingle, or DE spout their lies and insanity!

If you're not saying that, then FUCKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF DRAGGING THE DAY OUT

You should unvote.

[Ircher]

meuh do you think its natural how aureal outed that supposedly you wouldn't inherit recruits? like it felt like a false assertation at best and TMI of you being town and that you wouldnt inherit the roles and an agenda to keep themselves alive to do what they want with the role, which i pray doesnt autowin the game at this point for scum.

This is quite the stretch. I agree with ofrhz below.

Also it is extremely disingenuous that aureal is trying to claim role inheriting will remove all recruits, how are you sure of that? Sounds like fearmongering to survive as hard as possible.

You misread it. Meuh won't have any power but people like theta will keep their recruits

[Ircher]

You should unvote.

UNVOTE:
Fine, I'll let people take responsibility for their own miselimination vote. But it should not have ever come to this point.

I cannot herd 12 other townies to victory when they are determined to not pay attention.

Like, right now we've got Koba sitting here acting like Meuh will get great power by inheriting my role. This is an obviously untrue position to take as Meuh will have zero recruits and thus zero power, but everyone just sits here in THIS IS FINE mode. Like they have been the entire game while Bingle and Koba constantly spin everything I do as scum, ignoring every rebuttal I make, and just pivoting back to make whichever argument works best for them at the moment as if none of the previous arguments ever happened. And you guys, especially DE, just eat it all up.

Seriously, the guy went "Aureal's question makes a good point and OH MY GOD SHE ACTUALLY THINKS KOBA SHOULD ANSWER THE QUESTION INSTEAD OF JUST ATTACKING HER?!? SCUM!!!!!" It's fucking insane. If DE is actually town here, Koba has him deeply pocketed- saying that DE is "one of the few people who are game state aware" is so ridiculous I'm not sure whether it's scum trying to boost a partner's credibility or scum giving a headpat to the townie who's so deep in their pocket that he's become an attack dog for them.

But sure, let's just go on NOT THINKING about why Koba suddenly decided, appropos of nothing, to start shitpushing me again, when there are so many others doing so much less. Was it the deadline imposition forcing them to take a miselimination back up now rather than risk the wagon on a buddy going through? Was it Bingle telling DE that I would be a good investigation target, risking my slot getting cleared when they want it dead and thought town would do it for them? Who knows? Not this town, because we're not gonna think about it! Not even after you flip me town and know that Koba arbitrarily decided to come up with something to get pissy about to start pushing a townie's wagon while Cook was the lead wagon, are you gonna think about it.

I don't have to look at this game again this phase so I'm just gonnaVOTE: Cook like I promised so long ago, and leave the rest of you to fuck things up however much you feel like. Maybe I'll actually be able to just stop looking at this trainwreck, hoping against hope that this time when I see new posts, it will be from people who actually seem to reside in the same reality as me, instead of people screaming at me for trying to say anything useful.

But probably I won't.

Tldr : melding over being held accountable for focusing on their role doing things rather than playing mafia

Honestly, it rang as more authentic than Cook's reaction to her wagon earlier.

[Ircher]

There are less than 36 hours left, if you wanted Cook as a vote, you had a month to do it

cook has been
a pretty constant wagon throughout the day
and is i think the only other viable option for an elimination besides aureal

in fact cook has gotten up to e-2 i think as well

Yes, and this is a good sign that it's probably one on scum. I'll give that Aureal's also been a pretty consistent wagon throughout the day too though.

[Ircher]

koba claimed townie and they'd flip as a random scum

but nobody would be able to verify if they were actually... telling the truth or not?

No, it's pretty simple in this case. Either someone claims a vig shot, or we operate on the assumption that Koba was town.

[Ircher]

Vote DragonEater70

This vote is going to stay the whole day. His role STILL doesn't make any damn sense in the context of the game, he was extremely eager to make himself useless, and he is now either useless or evil team.

Town, you are welcome to join me on this vote and save me a vig kill. Otherwise, I'll be seeing him tonight.

Also STD isn't CLEARED but he didn't target anyone last night.

DragonEater is pretty townie by play. I'd be surprised if the paranoia there is scum faking it.

[Ircher]

Vote DragonEater70

This vote is going to stay the whole day. His role STILL doesn't make any damn sense in the context of the game, he was extremely eager to make himself useless, and he is now either useless or evil team.

Town, you are welcome to join me on this vote and save me a vig kill. Otherwise, I'll be seeing him tonight.

Also STD isn't CLEARED but he didn't target anyone last night.

DragonEater is pretty townie by play. I'd be surprised if the paranoia there is scum faking it.

Except the part of the play where he claimed a bizarre role and then tried to lose that bizarre role's usefulness as fast as possible.

I can see the bizarre claim part, but I don't necessarily agree that still wanting to do a lim is scum indicative here considering site norms. Even if it gives the potential for a clear/guilty, I can see a townie deciding still limming, even with the potential to be wrong, is the "better" move.

[Ircher]

pagetop, and a pretty solid clear on two people

Maybe it's obvious, please elaborate here.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Cook

[Ircher]

How is it a clear on Meuh? Meuh could claim whatever she wants, couldn't she?

[Ircher]

How is it a clear on Meuh? Meuh could claim whatever she wants, couldn't she?

no? how?

Because words.. are just words? There's not currently anyone vouching for what Meuh claims, so I'm not sure how you are coming to the conclusion she is cleared here.

[Ircher]

Which if Cook flips scum reads as TMI to me.

[Ircher]

How is it a clear on Meuh? Meuh could claim whatever she wants, couldn't she?

no? how?

Because words.. are just words? There's not currently anyone vouching for what Meuh claims, so I'm not sure how you are coming to the conclusion she is cleared here.

my townread on koba

A town read isn't a clear by any stretch of the imagination. It also still has near zero bearing on Meuh's alignment.

[Ircher]

Do you have an actual reason or are you just extremely tunnelled?

You inherited the Drew slot, which I'm more sure than ever was scum.

You're also playing as scum.

I've never been more sure on a play-based read.

Even my Cook scumread uses mechanics.

I think Cook accidentally spewed Meuh town here by claiming she is "cleared" by DkKoba's flip.

[Ircher]

well what i am asking is if ircher actually got recruited

Save the Dragons can confirm. I don't know if Dragons' acceptance was processed however since it happened during the night phase.

[Ircher]

There's a single, large problem with the narrative of me being a traitor.

My role is confirmed.

Have you heard about this new opportunity to make extra income?

Did we ever come to a conclusion here?

[Ircher]

this clears me doesn't it

like hated is very confirmable

The role is confirmable. Your alignment is not.
Why did you target Bingle?

[Ircher]

VOTE: bingle


UNVOTE:


Woooo I’m confirmed to still be the same role we already confirmed me to be. It’s MAGICAL!

Note, this doesn’t confirm cook tried to make me hated.

This doesn't confirm anything since you did it in the same post.

[Ircher]

I am back from V/LA but I am now at work, so the earliest you can expect me to post is in a few hours at my break, but more likely I will only post when I finish off for the day (in about 10 hours)

I just want to be clear, I am going to vig you tonight. You STILL refusing to reveal your role isn't doing you any favors and makes me more sure you are scum. If you actually have a good role, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by revealing it now and not forcing me to reveal it tomorrow.

I think Dragon is town. Could you try to vig one of the low activity slots instead rather than taking a hero shot on Dragon?

[Ircher]

VOTE: Cook

[Ircher]

I targeted you, Meuh, with the last of my abilities: the role delayer, so your result should be coming in the mail tonight.

Just to clarify, do you know if this affects factional abilities as well.

[Ircher]

Since there's only one scum remaining, I think killing me is fine, as I probably haven't done much to confirm myself as town this game and at worst it would give us some information to go off.

That being said, waiting for a day or two is probably better since someone who is confirmed is likely to die tonight?

No? Scum will just shoot in the PoE?

[Ircher]

By PoE, I mean the pool of players never getting limmed.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Skygazer

[Ircher]

The remaining scum can just choose to no kill. Unless we're expecting to block/protect against another kill in addition, I don't see how eating the goods confirms town anyone.

[Ircher]

Still think Skygazer is the last scum, but it sounds like we've already got this game pretty much solved, so I don't really care what order we do the eliminations in.

[Ircher]

finally a town endgame win

Finally. I was wondering how long you all would drag it out.

Thanks for modding xyzzy. No redactions from me.